I do believe we have a creator. Its hard to believe that we were created out of NOTHING. There must of been some intelligent mind behind all of this. Take in account how complex our race is. How our DNA and RNA is a blueprint for our existance. Its hard to believe all of the complexity of life was formed out of cosmic dice rolling a random number.
Then where did the creator come from?
Where did the atoms in our universe come from?
Only God knows
my point was is that I find it weird when people say "there is a creator, because we are complext", yet it seems to be completely normal for a creator to be that complex without anything creating him.
When m in trouble, i think there is god but when having fun i want to invite god with me. sometimes, i think god is helping in everyway and sometimes i feel like God is an illusion.
In all i am confused................yes 60% No. 40%
Do what u like most, that is the secret of happiness and longevity. Ur dad is not so important, its ur life that means most to u.
Amusing. Discussing religion / beliefs is mostly pointless. Everyone knows that they are right, and nobody is open minded enough to concede that they do not know everything. Nobody can prove to anyone else that God does or does not exist, so it's an exercise in futility.
Having said that, I personally believe in God and Jesus. I believe that the Bible has come to be mistranslated over the years, and therefore I do not take everything in it at face value. I believe religions were created as a means to control people by other people, and therefore I do not subscribe to the belief system of any particular Judeo-Christian religion. And finally, I believe that if you are going to believe anything, you damn well better do some research in to it and make up your own mind, or you are destined to be lead around by the nose like a jackass.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star [/URL] Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Amusing. Discussing religion / beliefs is mostly pointless. Everyone knows that they are right, and nobody is open minded enough to concede that they do not know everything. Nobody can prove to anyone else that God does or does not exist, so it's an exercise in futility. Having said that, I personally believe in God and Jesus. I believe that the Bible has come to be mistranslated over the years, and therefore I do not take everything in it at face value. I believe religions were created as a means to control people by other people, and therefore I do not subscribe to the belief system of any particular Judeo-Christian religion. And finally, I believe that if you are going to believe anything, you damn well better do some research in to it and make up your own mind, or you are destined to be lead around by the nose like a jackass.
Actually it's only the theists/atheists that aren't open minded enough to concede they do not know everything,
Having admitted that you have no proof one way or the other, how do, faith excluded, you know God exists? I exclude faith because wild, unsubstantiated guesses are in no way proof of the divine.
If you find a believer who claims they know "everything", you've either met God or a lunatic.
Those who have been convinced that God exists, whether that's through personal experience (this can of course be over a long time, and not just one "delussional" episode), being taught religious doctrine by those you love and trust, as you grow up, or because it makes everything fit into place for them, are not likely to concede that belief just because some people give a view that they must be fooling themselves to believe without scientific, verifiable proof (forgetting that people believe stuff without proof all the time...I believe South America exists, but I have no "proof"). It's another jump again to claim to know the mind and nature of God though, and I think very few believers would claim to have any complete knowledge of such things.
Equally, a non-believer is not ever going to be convinced of the existance of God from any reasoning or discussion. At most they may gain some understanding of how and why believers believe what they do and perhaps some may be a little less condescending in their views (those who consider believers to all be idiots, anyway). Some agnostics may even consider seeking God themselves. After all, if millions of people from the beginning of civilization to the present day claimed they believed in Invisible Pink Unicorns and had personal experiences with them, I would probably try to find out how to meet IPUs just because I might be missing out on something otherwise.
If you find a believer who claims they know "everything", you've either met God or a lunatic. Those who have been convinced that God exists, whether that's through personal experience (this can of course be over a long time, and not just one "delussional" episode), being taught religious doctrine by those you love and trust, as you grow up, or because it makes everything fit into place for them, are not likely to concede that belief just because some people give a view that they must be fooling themselves to believe without scientific, verifiable proof (forgetting that people believe stuff without proof all the time...I believe South America exists, but I have no "proof"). It's another jump again to claim to know the mind and nature of God though, and I think very few believers would claim to have any complete knowledge of such things. Equally, a non-believer is not ever going to be convinced of the existance of God from any reasoning or discussion. At most they may gain some understanding of how and why believers believe what they do and perhaps some may be a little less condescending in their views (those who consider believers to all be idiots, anyway). Some agnostics may even consider seeking God themselves. After all, if millions of people from the beginning of civilization to the present day claimed they believed in Invisible Pink Unicorns and had personal experiences with them, I would probably try to find out how to meet IPUs just because I might be missing out on something otherwise.
no i am not cuz that is the belief of not believing in religion. I mean WOW even that requires to much energy i am going to put into it, i am simply not religous or rebel about it at all
the most baffling thing to me is that at some point in time, something came from nothing. whether it was a god or just the start of the universe, that remains to be a mystery.
If you find a believer who claims they know "everything", you've either met God or a lunatic. Those who have been convinced that God exists, whether that's through personal experience (this can of course be over a long time, and not just one "delussional" episode), being taught religious doctrine by those you love and trust, as you grow up, or because it makes everything fit into place for them, are not likely to concede that belief just because some people give a view that they must be fooling themselves to believe without scientific, verifiable proof (forgetting that people believe stuff without proof all the time...I believe South America exists, but I have no "proof"). It's another jump again to claim to know the mind and nature of God though, and I think very few believers would claim to have any complete knowledge of such things. Equally, a non-believer is not ever going to be convinced of the existance of God from any reasoning or discussion. At most they may gain some understanding of how and why believers believe what they do and perhaps some may be a little less condescending in their views (those who consider believers to all be idiots, anyway). Some agnostics may even consider seeking God themselves. After all, if millions of people from the beginning of civilization to the present day claimed they believed in Invisible Pink Unicorns and had personal experiences with them, I would probably try to find out how to meet IPUs just because I might be missing out on something otherwise.
Just because people have been trying to fabricate an answer for a problem they can't solve doesn't mean their solution is necissarily right. I'd hope, if God exists, that he'd have more common sense than you people. You guys give him the logical capacity of a 12 year old.
Let's just pose a hypothetical situation: I concede to the fact that I don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the eternal, therefore I don't try to "find God." I die. In the end, this omnipotent creator exists. Do you think he will have more respect for someone who blindly followed that which they can't understand, or someone who left that eternal question open for debate?
If he's as all-knowing as you make him out to be, I highly doubt he will send me to hell for questioning such a ridiculous notion as his existence.
And if he's all-knowing, why did he create me in the first place, knowing I'd burn in hell? And isn't it a pretty egotistical act to create a being whose sole purpose is to worship you? But then again, these are topics for another debate.
You do have a choice in the matter.. Just because God knows the choice that you will ultimately make, does not mean that the choice was not yours. He does not control which choice you make, he just knows you well enough to know what decision you will ultimately make.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
If you find a believer who claims they know "everything", you've either met God or a lunatic. Those who have been convinced that God exists, whether that's through personal experience (this can of course be over a long time, and not just one "delussional" episode), being taught religious doctrine by those you love and trust, as you grow up, or because it makes everything fit into place for them, are not likely to concede that belief just because some people give a view that they must be fooling themselves to believe without scientific, verifiable proof (forgetting that people believe stuff without proof all the time...I believe South America exists, but I have no "proof"). It's another jump again to claim to know the mind and nature of God though, and I think very few believers would claim to have any complete knowledge of such things. Equally, a non-believer is not ever going to be convinced of the existance of God from any reasoning or discussion. At most they may gain some understanding of how and why believers believe what they do and perhaps some may be a little less condescending in their views (those who consider believers to all be idiots, anyway). Some agnostics may even consider seeking God themselves. After all, if millions of people from the beginning of civilization to the present day claimed they believed in Invisible Pink Unicorns and had personal experiences with them, I would probably try to find out how to meet IPUs just because I might be missing out on something otherwise.
Just because people have been trying to fabricate an answer for a problem they can't solve doesn't mean their solution is necissarily right. I'd hope, if God exists, that he'd have more common sense than you people. You guys give him the logical capacity of a 12 year old.
Let's just pose a hypothetical situation: I concede to the fact that I don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the eternal, therefore I don't try to "find God." I die. In the end, this omnipotent creator exists. Do you think he will have more respect for someone who blindly followed that which they can't understand, or someone who left that eternal question open for debate?
If he's as all-knowing as you make him out to be, I highly doubt he will send me to hell for questioning such a ridiculous notion as his existence.
And if he's all-knowing, why did he create me in the first place, knowing I'd burn in hell? And isn't it a pretty egotistical act to create a being whose sole purpose is to worship you? But then again, these are topics for another debate.
not trying to start anything here, but have you even read the Bible that you claim is soooo fabricated? if not, then its funny to me that without even trying to understand something you dismiss it as false.
that pretty much goes for the rest of you religious bashers too, you cant claim to know something about an issue without first having some experience in the matter.
You do have a choice in the matter.. Just because God knows the choice that you will ultimately make, does not mean that the choice was not yours. He does not control which choice you make, he just knows you well enough to know what decision you will ultimately make.
To me I think this arguement loses to the following.
At what point are you required to make that choice? Age 1 month? less then day 0? How about 6yrs old before you can read? What if you never learn to read, are you required to just depend on others interpretations? What if they interpret wrong? Maybe you can decide by age 40? What if god takes your life at say age 1? Hell for the child? At what point exactly is your choice necessary?
The other problem I see is from what you are saying is that God does not actually make the decision of whether you follow him or not? So what if you were planning to switch to him just before you died? He chooses your death correct? So basically he is making your choice. Additionally the information you recieve determines that choice. Is God not in control of that information? I tell you that there are things God could do to influence my decision. So his withholding of this information is making the choice for me? What about all these people claiming to have "met" God. Didnt God intervene and basically help make thier choice.
So there lies the paradox as already explained by Modjoe86. Also as shown above God makes the entire decision whether we actually worship him or not. Which shows he created us for the purpose of Worshiping him?
If we are only like Ants to God. Then not worshipping him at all wont matter.
You do have a choice in the matter.. Just because God knows the choice that you will ultimately make, does not mean that the choice was not yours. He does not control which choice you make, he just knows you well enough to know what decision you will ultimately make.
To me I think this arguement loses to the following.
At what point are you required to make that choice? Age 1 month? less then day 0? How about 6yrs old before you can read? What if you never learn to read, are you required to just depend on others interpretations? What if they interpret wrong? Maybe you can decide by age 40? What if god takes your life at say age 1? Hell for the child? At what point exactly is your choice necessary?
The other problem I see is from what you are saying is that God does not actually make the decision of whether you follow him or not? So what if you were planning to switch to him just before you died? He chooses your death correct? So basically he is making your choice. Additionally the information you recieve determines that choice. Is God not in control of that information? I tell you that there are things God could do to influence my decision. So his withholding of this information is making the choice for me? What about all these people claiming to have "met" God. Didnt God intervene and basically help make thier choice.
So there lies the paradox as already explained by Modjoe86. Also as shown above God makes the entire decision whether we actually worship him or not. Which shows he created us for the purpose of Worshiping him?
If we are only like Ants to God. Then not worshipping him at all wont matter.
If you find a believer who claims they know "everything", you've either met God or a lunatic. Those who have been convinced that God exists, whether that's through personal experience (this can of course be over a long time, and not just one "delussional" episode), being taught religious doctrine by those you love and trust, as you grow up, or because it makes everything fit into place for them, are not likely to concede that belief just because some people give a view that they must be fooling themselves to believe without scientific, verifiable proof (forgetting that people believe stuff without proof all the time...I believe South America exists, but I have no "proof"). It's another jump again to claim to know the mind and nature of God though, and I think very few believers would claim to have any complete knowledge of such things. Equally, a non-believer is not ever going to be convinced of the existance of God from any reasoning or discussion. At most they may gain some understanding of how and why believers believe what they do and perhaps some may be a little less condescending in their views (those who consider believers to all be idiots, anyway). Some agnostics may even consider seeking God themselves. After all, if millions of people from the beginning of civilization to the present day claimed they believed in Invisible Pink Unicorns and had personal experiences with them, I would probably try to find out how to meet IPUs just because I might be missing out on something otherwise.
Just because people have been trying to fabricate an answer for a problem they can't solve doesn't mean their solution is necissarily right. I'd hope, if God exists, that he'd have more common sense than you people. You guys give him the logical capacity of a 12 year old.
Let's just pose a hypothetical situation: I concede to the fact that I don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the eternal, therefore I don't try to "find God." I die. In the end, this omnipotent creator exists. Do you think he will have more respect for someone who blindly followed that which they can't understand, or someone who left that eternal question open for debate?
If he's as all-knowing as you make him out to be, I highly doubt he will send me to hell for questioning such a ridiculous notion as his existence.
And if he's all-knowing, why did he create me in the first place, knowing I'd burn in hell? And isn't it a pretty egotistical act to create a being whose sole purpose is to worship you? But then again, these are topics for another debate.
not trying to start anything here, but have you even read the Bible that you claim is soooo fabricated? if not, then its funny to me that without even trying to understand something you dismiss it as false.
that pretty much goes for the rest of you religious bashers too, you cant claim to know something about an issue without first having some experience in the matter. Do you read the Quran? The book of Mormon? The satanic bible? The books of scientology? The tipitaka? Yet you claim them to be false...
Originally posted by PlanoMM not trying to start anything here, but have you even read the Bible that you claim is soooo fabricated? if not, then its funny to me that without even trying to understand something you dismiss it as false.that pretty much goes for the rest of you religious bashers too, you cant claim to know something about an issue without first having some experience in the matter.
That's a flawed argument. Most sane people know smoking cigarettes will mess with your health sooner or later without needing to actually smoke them.
Humans can generally tell if something is good or bad from a distance. It's then up to the individual on whether they want to become involved in that good or bad.
But to assert that you cannot make a judgement on something unless you've experienced it is, quite franky, wrong.
You do have a choice in the matter.. Just because God knows the choice that you will ultimately make, does not mean that the choice was not yours. He does not control which choice you make, he just knows you well enough to know what decision you will ultimately make.
To me I think this arguement loses to the following.
At what point are you required to make that choice? Age 1 month? less then day 0? How about 6yrs old before you can read? What if you never learn to read, are you required to just depend on others interpretations? What if they interpret wrong? Maybe you can decide by age 40? What if god takes your life at say age 1? Hell for the child? At what point exactly is your choice necessary?
The other problem I see is from what you are saying is that God does not actually make the decision of whether you follow him or not? So what if you were planning to switch to him just before you died? He chooses your death correct? So basically he is making your choice. Additionally the information you recieve determines that choice. Is God not in control of that information? I tell you that there are things God could do to influence my decision. So his withholding of this information is making the choice for me? What about all these people claiming to have "met" God. Didnt God intervene and basically help make thier choice.
So there lies the paradox as already explained by Modjoe86. Also as shown above God makes the entire decision whether we actually worship him or not. Which shows he created us for the purpose of Worshiping him?
If we are only like Ants to God. Then not worshipping him at all wont matter.
Any point in your life, there is not any designated point in time in which one must make that decision...if someone is killed an in "untimely" manner, then I feel badly for them, but those who have a chance at the decision, and turn away from it, are those who are unsaved...hence the belief that infants and very young children do not go to hell if they die before they really have a chance at making any kind of decision about their faith.
About your second paragraph of quesitons: God knows your heart, if you go through life thinking "I'm going to do whatever I want and then right when I'm about to die I'm going to start believing in Jesus" then it isn't going to fly. The important thing is that God knows your heart here. As for what information is available to you, the very fact that you are posting in this thread tells me that you know enough about the Christian faith to make a choice for yourself, if you choose to turn away, then that is the choice you have made. It doesn't mean that you can't ever turn away from that choice and give your life to God...that choice will always be there until the day that you die. Most likely you aren't going to get some kind of miraculous piece of information dropped upon you that will soften your heart, because if God was just going to show himself to everyone and make sure everyone believed in him, what would the challenge in life be?
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Draenor God knows your heart, if you go through life thinking "I'm going to do whatever I want and then right when I'm about to die I'm going to start believing in Jesus" then it isn't going to fly.
That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
If you find a believer who claims they know "everything", you've either met God or a lunatic. Those who have been convinced that God exists, whether that's through personal experience (this can of course be over a long time, and not just one "delussional" episode), being taught religious doctrine by those you love and trust, as you grow up, or because it makes everything fit into place for them, are not likely to concede that belief just because some people give a view that they must be fooling themselves to believe without scientific, verifiable proof (forgetting that people believe stuff without proof all the time...I believe South America exists, but I have no "proof"). It's another jump again to claim to know the mind and nature of God though, and I think very few believers would claim to have any complete knowledge of such things. Equally, a non-believer is not ever going to be convinced of the existance of God from any reasoning or discussion. At most they may gain some understanding of how and why believers believe what they do and perhaps some may be a little less condescending in their views (those who consider believers to all be idiots, anyway). Some agnostics may even consider seeking God themselves. After all, if millions of people from the beginning of civilization to the present day claimed they believed in Invisible Pink Unicorns and had personal experiences with them, I would probably try to find out how to meet IPUs just because I might be missing out on something otherwise.
Just because people have been trying to fabricate an answer for a problem they can't solve doesn't mean their solution is necissarily right. I'd hope, if God exists, that he'd have more common sense than you people. You guys give him the logical capacity of a 12 year old.
Let's just pose a hypothetical situation: I concede to the fact that I don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the eternal, therefore I don't try to "find God." I die. In the end, this omnipotent creator exists. Do you think he will have more respect for someone who blindly followed that which they can't understand, or someone who left that eternal question open for debate?
If he's as all-knowing as you make him out to be, I highly doubt he will send me to hell for questioning such a ridiculous notion as his existence.
And if he's all-knowing, why did he create me in the first place, knowing I'd burn in hell? And isn't it a pretty egotistical act to create a being whose sole purpose is to worship you? But then again, these are topics for another debate.
not trying to start anything here, but have you even read the Bible that you claim is soooo fabricated? if not, then its funny to me that without even trying to understand something you dismiss it as false.
that pretty much goes for the rest of you religious bashers too, you cant claim to know something about an issue without first having some experience in the matter. Do you read the Quran? The book of Mormon? The satanic bible? The books of scientology? The tipitaka? Yet you claim them to be false...
ah, but see, ive never once said that any of those books were false. and actually i have read a big portion of the Mormon bible. i dont badmouth other religions that i know nothing about. see i have this thing about not talking out me ass. i dont like to do it, so i always make sure that i study up on something if im going to make "judgements" on it. Oo and the satanic bible? are you serious?
not trying to start anything here, but have you even read the Bible that you claim is soooo fabricated? if not, then its funny to me that without even trying to understand something you dismiss it as false. that pretty much goes for the rest of you religious bashers too, you cant claim to know something about an issue without first having some experience in the matter.
That's a flawed argument. Most sane people know smoking cigarettes will mess with your health sooner or later without needing to actually smoke them.
Humans can generally tell if something is good or bad from a distance. It's then up to the individual on whether they want to become involved in that good or bad.
But to assert that you cannot make a judgement on something unless you've experienced it is, quite franky, wrong.
nope, i dont think that it is. smoking actually has physical effects that can be seen, as well as inhaled. (second-hand smoke). claiming that you dont have to study up on a religion to know something about it and comparing it to smoking is the flawed arguement, sorry. unlike smoking, living your life according to principles that teach respect for others and love toward your neighbors hardly seems comparable to giving yourself and others around you lung cancer.
and im sure youve heard the statement, "dont knock it till youve tried it". up till i was 16, i never ate brocali. i wouldnt even try it. just didnt like the look and smell. tried it when i was 16, loved it ever since. same principle applies. you cant say that you know something if you dont read the book your bashing. read the Bible, then come tell me how its all false and such. pray to God, experience Him, then come tell me Hes not real.
God knows your heart, if you go through life thinking "I'm going to do whatever I want and then right when I'm about to die I'm going to start believing in Jesus" then it isn't going to fly.
That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
on the contrary, when the thief recognized his Lord, he did worship Him. up till this point in his life, he hadnt know Jesus. when he met the Lord, he gave his life to him. read up one verse.
Originally posted by PlanoMM Originally posted by Ulujain
Originally posted by PlanoMMnot trying to start anything here, but have you even read the Bible that you claim is soooo fabricated? if not, then its funny to me that without even trying to understand something you dismiss it as false. that pretty much goes for the rest of you religious bashers too, you cant claim to know something about an issue without first having some experience in the matter.
That's a flawed argument. Most sane people know smoking cigarettes will mess with your health sooner or later without needing to actually smoke them. Humans can generally tell if something is good or bad from a distance. It's then up to the individual on whether they want to become involved in that good or bad. But to assert that you cannot make a judgement on something unless you've experienced it is, quite franky, wrong. nope, i dont think that it is. smoking actually has physical effects that can be seen, as well as inhaled. (second-hand smoke). claiming that you dont have to study up on a religion to know something about it and comparing it to smoking is the flawed arguement, sorry. unlike smoking, living your life according to principles that teach respect for others and love toward your neighbors hardly seems comparable to giving yourself and others around you lung cancer.
and im sure youve heard the statement, "dont knock it till youve tried it". up till i was 16, i never ate brocali. i wouldnt even try it. just didnt like the look and smell. tried it when i was 16, loved it ever since. same principle applies. you cant say that you know something if you dont read the book your bashing. read the Bible, then come tell me how its all false and such. pray to God, experience Him, then come tell me Hes not real.
I can tell you the Bible is mostly fairy tale, but you won't believe me. Not now, not ever. You can tell me to experience God's love and my answer is that I can't start loving and/or having faith in an invisible beings that is a Hebrew war god by origin.
I could argue that the Bible tells you more on how to destroy your neighbour than to love him, but what's the point? You're not going to believe me, and I'm not going to convince you.
I could also argue that having respect for your neighbours should be something that you inherently have, rather than needed to be taught that by studying religious dogma.
I'll also argue that I probably know the Bible better than most people on this forum, including the bits your pastor won't read to you on a Sunday, but, what's the point?
So, each to their own. If God and the Bible float your boat than more power to you.
Like someone wrote earlier in this thread - having religious or metaphysical arguments online is so much a waste of time it isn't funny.
One day humans will grow out of putting faith in baseless and superstitious beliefs and things will be good. But until then, oh well.
God knows your heart, if you go through life thinking "I'm going to do whatever I want and then right when I'm about to die I'm going to start believing in Jesus" then it isn't going to fly.
That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
on the contrary, when the thief recognized his Lord, he did worship Him. up till this point in his life, he hadnt know Jesus. when he met the Lord, he gave his life to him. read up one verse.
I haven't said this to you PlanoMM in a while.
"SHUT YER MOUTH"
Cryomatrix
P.S. You know this line above has nothing to do with your post. ME BRUDDER LOL>
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Originally posted by PlanoMM Originally posted by Ulujain
Originally posted by DraenorGod knows your heart, if you go through life thinking "I'm going to do whatever I want and then right when I'm about to die I'm going to start believing in Jesus" then it isn't going to fly.
That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43 on the contrary, when the thief recognized his Lord, he did worship Him. up till this point in his life, he hadnt know Jesus. when he met the Lord, he gave his life to him. read up one verse.
So, where does it say you have to had faith for some time period? It doesn't. Jesus said what he did because the thief's repentence was *genuine* not because of how long he believed.
The thief repented his ways before he died and Jesus accepted it and said what he did. Oddly enough, this is the sole person in the Greek scriptures who Jesus promises his Father's kingdom to.
Ah fuck it, i'm out of this thread. What a *fucking* waste of time discussing any of this is...
nope, i dont think that it is. smoking actually has physical effects that can be seen, as well as inhaled. (second-hand smoke). claiming that you dont have to study up on a religion to know something about it and comparing it to smoking is the flawed arguement, sorry. unlike smoking, living your life according to principles that teach respect for others and love toward your neighbors hardly seems comparable to giving yourself and others around you lung cancer. and im sure youve heard the statement, "dont knock it till youve tried it". up till i was 16, i never ate brocali. i wouldnt even try it. just didnt like the look and smell. tried it when i was 16, loved it ever since. same principle applies. you cant say that you know something if you dont read the book your bashing. read the Bible, then come tell me how its all false and such. pray to God, experience Him, then come tell me Hes not real.
I can tell you the Bible is mostly fairy tale, but you won't believe me. Not now, not ever. You can tell me to experience God's love and my answer is that I can't start loving and/or having faith in an invisible beings that is a Hebrew war god by origin.
I could argue that the Bible tells you more on how to destroy your neighbour than to love him, but what's the point? You're not going to believe me, and I'm not going to convince you.
I could also argue that having respect for your neighbours should be something that you inherently have, rather than needed to be taught that by studying religious dogma.
I'll also argue that I probably know the Bible better than most people on this forum, including the bits your pastor won't read to you on a Sunday, but, what's the point?
So, each to their own. If God and the Bible float your boat than more power to you.
Like someone wrote earlier in this thread - having religious or metaphysical arguments online is so much a waste of time it isn't funny.
One day humans will grow out of putting faith in baseless and superstitious beliefs and things will be good. But until then, oh well.
i can tell you that the Bible is true, but you wont believe me. not now, not ever. you can tell me to give up on me experience with God and me answer to that is i cant deny what i know to be true because you dont believe in Him whom you prolly have never even tried to reach.
i could argue that the Bible tells you more on how to love your neighbor than to destroy him, but whats the point? youre not going to believe me, and im not going to convince you.
i could also argue that having respect for your neighbor SHOULD be something that you inherently have, rather than needed to be taught that by studying religious dogma. but since its a proven fact that we dont inherently have respect for our neighbors......
ill also argue that i prolly know the Bible better than most people on this forum, including me pastor (especially since i have no pastor), mainly cause i actually read it meself. i dont depend on a MAN to feed me bits.
so, to each their own. if denying God and the Bible float your boat, then more power to you.
like someone wrote earlier in this thread- if having these arguements are so much of a waste.....why are you doing it?
as long as there is a God (and there is), there will never be a day when humans dont worship Him. and believe me, a godless world would NOT be a good thing.
God knows your heart, if you go through life thinking "I'm going to do whatever I want and then right when I'm about to die I'm going to start believing in Jesus" then it isn't going to fly.
That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
on the contrary, when the thief recognized his Lord, he did worship Him. up till this point in his life, he hadnt know Jesus. when he met the Lord, he gave his life to him. read up one verse.
I haven't said this to you PlanoMM in a while.
"SHUT YER MOUTH"
Cryomatrix
P.S. You know this line above has nothing to do with your post. ME BRUDDER LOL>
lol, where ya been, been missin' that. hee, hee, hee
Comments
Where did the atoms in our universe come from?
Only God knows
my point was is that I find it weird when people say "there is a creator, because we are complext", yet it seems to be completely normal for a creator to be that complex without anything creating him.When m in trouble, i think there is god but when having fun i want to invite god with me. sometimes, i think god is helping in everyway and sometimes i feel like God is an illusion.
In all i am confused................yes 60% No. 40%
Do what u like most, that is the secret of happiness and longevity. Ur dad is not so important, its ur life that means most to u.
Amusing. Discussing religion / beliefs is mostly pointless. Everyone knows that they are right, and nobody is open minded enough to concede that they do not know everything. Nobody can prove to anyone else that God does or does not exist, so it's an exercise in futility.
Having said that, I personally believe in God and Jesus. I believe that the Bible has come to be mistranslated over the years, and therefore I do not take everything in it at face value. I believe religions were created as a means to control people by other people, and therefore I do not subscribe to the belief system of any particular Judeo-Christian religion. And finally, I believe that if you are going to believe anything, you damn well better do some research in to it and make up your own mind, or you are destined to be lead around by the nose like a jackass.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
[/URL]
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Actually it's only the theists/atheists that aren't open minded enough to concede they do not know everything,
Having admitted that you have no proof one way or the other, how do, faith excluded, you know God exists? I exclude faith because wild, unsubstantiated guesses are in no way proof of the divine.
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If you find a believer who claims they know "everything", you've either met God or a lunatic.
Those who have been convinced that God exists, whether that's through personal experience (this can of course be over a long time, and not just one "delussional" episode), being taught religious doctrine by those you love and trust, as you grow up, or because it makes everything fit into place for them, are not likely to concede that belief just because some people give a view that they must be fooling themselves to believe without scientific, verifiable proof (forgetting that people believe stuff without proof all the time...I believe South America exists, but I have no "proof"). It's another jump again to claim to know the mind and nature of God though, and I think very few believers would claim to have any complete knowledge of such things.
Equally, a non-believer is not ever going to be convinced of the existance of God from any reasoning or discussion. At most they may gain some understanding of how and why believers believe what they do and perhaps some may be a little less condescending in their views (those who consider believers to all be idiots, anyway). Some agnostics may even consider seeking God themselves. After all, if millions of people from the beginning of civilization to the present day claimed they believed in Invisible Pink Unicorns and had personal experiences with them, I would probably try to find out how to meet IPUs just because I might be missing out on something otherwise.
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Just because people have been trying to fabricate an answer for a problem they can't solve doesn't mean their solution is necissarily right. I'd hope, if God exists, that he'd have more common sense than you people. You guys give him the logical capacity of a 12 year old.
Let's just pose a hypothetical situation: I concede to the fact that I don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the eternal, therefore I don't try to "find God." I die. In the end, this omnipotent creator exists. Do you think he will have more respect for someone who blindly followed that which they can't understand, or someone who left that eternal question open for debate?
If he's as all-knowing as you make him out to be, I highly doubt he will send me to hell for questioning such a ridiculous notion as his existence.
And if he's all-knowing, why did he create me in the first place, knowing I'd burn in hell? And isn't it a pretty egotistical act to create a being whose sole purpose is to worship you? But then again, these are topics for another debate.
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Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Just because people have been trying to fabricate an answer for a problem they can't solve doesn't mean their solution is necissarily right. I'd hope, if God exists, that he'd have more common sense than you people. You guys give him the logical capacity of a 12 year old.
Let's just pose a hypothetical situation: I concede to the fact that I don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the eternal, therefore I don't try to "find God." I die. In the end, this omnipotent creator exists. Do you think he will have more respect for someone who blindly followed that which they can't understand, or someone who left that eternal question open for debate?
If he's as all-knowing as you make him out to be, I highly doubt he will send me to hell for questioning such a ridiculous notion as his existence.
And if he's all-knowing, why did he create me in the first place, knowing I'd burn in hell? And isn't it a pretty egotistical act to create a being whose sole purpose is to worship you? But then again, these are topics for another debate.
not trying to start anything here, but have you even read the Bible that you claim is soooo fabricated? if not, then its funny to me that without even trying to understand something you dismiss it as false.that pretty much goes for the rest of you religious bashers too, you cant claim to know something about an issue without first having some experience in the matter.
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To me I think this arguement loses to the following.
At what point are you required to make that choice? Age 1 month? less then day 0? How about 6yrs old before you can read? What if you never learn to read, are you required to just depend on others interpretations? What if they interpret wrong? Maybe you can decide by age 40? What if god takes your life at say age 1? Hell for the child? At what point exactly is your choice necessary?
The other problem I see is from what you are saying is that God does not actually make the decision of whether you follow him or not? So what if you were planning to switch to him just before you died? He chooses your death correct? So basically he is making your choice. Additionally the information you recieve determines that choice. Is God not in control of that information? I tell you that there are things God could do to influence my decision. So his withholding of this information is making the choice for me? What about all these people claiming to have "met" God. Didnt God intervene and basically help make thier choice.
So there lies the paradox as already explained by Modjoe86. Also as shown above God makes the entire decision whether we actually worship him or not. Which shows he created us for the purpose of Worshiping him?
If we are only like Ants to God. Then not worshipping him at all wont matter.
To me I think this arguement loses to the following.
At what point are you required to make that choice? Age 1 month? less then day 0? How about 6yrs old before you can read? What if you never learn to read, are you required to just depend on others interpretations? What if they interpret wrong? Maybe you can decide by age 40? What if god takes your life at say age 1? Hell for the child? At what point exactly is your choice necessary?
The other problem I see is from what you are saying is that God does not actually make the decision of whether you follow him or not? So what if you were planning to switch to him just before you died? He chooses your death correct? So basically he is making your choice. Additionally the information you recieve determines that choice. Is God not in control of that information? I tell you that there are things God could do to influence my decision. So his withholding of this information is making the choice for me? What about all these people claiming to have "met" God. Didnt God intervene and basically help make thier choice.
So there lies the paradox as already explained by Modjoe86. Also as shown above God makes the entire decision whether we actually worship him or not. Which shows he created us for the purpose of Worshiping him?
If we are only like Ants to God. Then not worshipping him at all wont matter.
pretty sure it matters to the ant.....______________________________
Just because people have been trying to fabricate an answer for a problem they can't solve doesn't mean their solution is necissarily right. I'd hope, if God exists, that he'd have more common sense than you people. You guys give him the logical capacity of a 12 year old.
Let's just pose a hypothetical situation: I concede to the fact that I don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the eternal, therefore I don't try to "find God." I die. In the end, this omnipotent creator exists. Do you think he will have more respect for someone who blindly followed that which they can't understand, or someone who left that eternal question open for debate?
If he's as all-knowing as you make him out to be, I highly doubt he will send me to hell for questioning such a ridiculous notion as his existence.
And if he's all-knowing, why did he create me in the first place, knowing I'd burn in hell? And isn't it a pretty egotistical act to create a being whose sole purpose is to worship you? But then again, these are topics for another debate.
not trying to start anything here, but have you even read the Bible that you claim is soooo fabricated? if not, then its funny to me that without even trying to understand something you dismiss it as false.that pretty much goes for the rest of you religious bashers too, you cant claim to know something about an issue without first having some experience in the matter. Do you read the Quran? The book of Mormon? The satanic bible? The books of scientology? The tipitaka? Yet you claim them to be false...
That's a flawed argument. Most sane people know smoking cigarettes will mess with your health sooner or later without needing to actually smoke them.
Humans can generally tell if something is good or bad from a distance. It's then up to the individual on whether they want to become involved in that good or bad.
But to assert that you cannot make a judgement on something unless you've experienced it is, quite franky, wrong.
To me I think this arguement loses to the following.
At what point are you required to make that choice? Age 1 month? less then day 0? How about 6yrs old before you can read? What if you never learn to read, are you required to just depend on others interpretations? What if they interpret wrong? Maybe you can decide by age 40? What if god takes your life at say age 1? Hell for the child? At what point exactly is your choice necessary?
The other problem I see is from what you are saying is that God does not actually make the decision of whether you follow him or not? So what if you were planning to switch to him just before you died? He chooses your death correct? So basically he is making your choice. Additionally the information you recieve determines that choice. Is God not in control of that information? I tell you that there are things God could do to influence my decision. So his withholding of this information is making the choice for me? What about all these people claiming to have "met" God. Didnt God intervene and basically help make thier choice.
So there lies the paradox as already explained by Modjoe86. Also as shown above God makes the entire decision whether we actually worship him or not. Which shows he created us for the purpose of Worshiping him?
If we are only like Ants to God. Then not worshipping him at all wont matter.
Any point in your life, there is not any designated point in time in which one must make that decision...if someone is killed an in "untimely" manner, then I feel badly for them, but those who have a chance at the decision, and turn away from it, are those who are unsaved...hence the belief that infants and very young children do not go to hell if they die before they really have a chance at making any kind of decision about their faith.
About your second paragraph of quesitons: God knows your heart, if you go through life thinking "I'm going to do whatever I want and then right when I'm about to die I'm going to start believing in Jesus" then it isn't going to fly. The important thing is that God knows your heart here. As for what information is available to you, the very fact that you are posting in this thread tells me that you know enough about the Christian faith to make a choice for yourself, if you choose to turn away, then that is the choice you have made. It doesn't mean that you can't ever turn away from that choice and give your life to God...that choice will always be there until the day that you die. Most likely you aren't going to get some kind of miraculous piece of information dropped upon you that will soften your heart, because if God was just going to show himself to everyone and make sure everyone believed in him, what would the challenge in life be?
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
Just because people have been trying to fabricate an answer for a problem they can't solve doesn't mean their solution is necissarily right. I'd hope, if God exists, that he'd have more common sense than you people. You guys give him the logical capacity of a 12 year old.
Let's just pose a hypothetical situation: I concede to the fact that I don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the eternal, therefore I don't try to "find God." I die. In the end, this omnipotent creator exists. Do you think he will have more respect for someone who blindly followed that which they can't understand, or someone who left that eternal question open for debate?
If he's as all-knowing as you make him out to be, I highly doubt he will send me to hell for questioning such a ridiculous notion as his existence.
And if he's all-knowing, why did he create me in the first place, knowing I'd burn in hell? And isn't it a pretty egotistical act to create a being whose sole purpose is to worship you? But then again, these are topics for another debate.
not trying to start anything here, but have you even read the Bible that you claim is soooo fabricated? if not, then its funny to me that without even trying to understand something you dismiss it as false.that pretty much goes for the rest of you religious bashers too, you cant claim to know something about an issue without first having some experience in the matter. Do you read the Quran? The book of Mormon? The satanic bible? The books of scientology? The tipitaka? Yet you claim them to be false...
ah, but see, ive never once said that any of those books were false.
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That's a flawed argument. Most sane people know smoking cigarettes will mess with your health sooner or later without needing to actually smoke them.
Humans can generally tell if something is good or bad from a distance. It's then up to the individual on whether they want to become involved in that good or bad.
But to assert that you cannot make a judgement on something unless you've experienced it is, quite franky, wrong.
nope, i dont think that it is. smoking actually has physical effects that can be seen, as well as inhaled. (second-hand smoke). claiming that you dont have to study up on a religion to know something about it and comparing it to smoking is the flawed arguement, sorry. unlike smoking, living your life according to principles that teach respect for others and love toward your neighbors hardly seems comparable to giving yourself and others around you lung cancer.and im sure youve heard the statement, "dont knock it till youve tried it". up till i was 16, i never ate brocali. i wouldnt even try it. just didnt like the look and smell. tried it when i was 16, loved it ever since. same principle applies. you cant say that you know something if you dont read the book your bashing. read the Bible, then come tell me how its all false and such. pray to God, experience Him, then come tell me Hes not real.
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That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
on the contrary, when the thief recognized his Lord, he did worship Him. up till this point in his life, he hadnt know Jesus. when he met the Lord, he gave his life to him. read up one verse.______________________________
Humans can generally tell if something is good or bad from a distance. It's then up to the individual on whether they want to become involved in that good or bad.
But to assert that you cannot make a judgement on something unless you've experienced it is, quite franky, wrong.
nope, i dont think that it is. smoking actually has physical effects that can be seen, as well as inhaled. (second-hand smoke). claiming that you dont have to study up on a religion to know something about it and comparing it to smoking is the flawed arguement, sorry. unlike smoking, living your life according to principles that teach respect for others and love toward your neighbors hardly seems comparable to giving yourself and others around you lung cancer.
and im sure youve heard the statement, "dont knock it till youve tried it". up till i was 16, i never ate brocali. i wouldnt even try it. just didnt like the look and smell. tried it when i was 16, loved it ever since. same principle applies. you cant say that you know something if you dont read the book your bashing. read the Bible, then come tell me how its all false and such. pray to God, experience Him, then come tell me Hes not real.
I can tell you the Bible is mostly fairy tale, but you won't believe me. Not now, not ever. You can tell me to experience God's love and my answer is that I can't start loving and/or having faith in an invisible beings that is a Hebrew war god by origin.
I could argue that the Bible tells you more on how to destroy your neighbour than to love him, but what's the point? You're not going to believe me, and I'm not going to convince you.
I could also argue that having respect for your neighbours should be something that you inherently have, rather than needed to be taught that by studying religious dogma.
I'll also argue that I probably know the Bible better than most people on this forum, including the bits your pastor won't read to you on a Sunday, but, what's the point?
So, each to their own. If God and the Bible float your boat than more power to you.
Like someone wrote earlier in this thread - having religious or metaphysical arguments online is so much a waste of time it isn't funny.
One day humans will grow out of putting faith in baseless and superstitious beliefs and things will be good. But until then, oh well.
That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
on the contrary, when the thief recognized his Lord, he did worship Him. up till this point in his life, he hadnt know Jesus. when he met the Lord, he gave his life to him. read up one verse.I haven't said this to you PlanoMM in a while.
"SHUT YER MOUTH"
Cryomatrix
P.S. You know this line above has nothing to do with your post. ME BRUDDER LOL>
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
on the contrary, when the thief recognized his Lord, he did worship Him. up till this point in his life, he hadnt know Jesus. when he met the Lord, he gave his life to him. read up one verse.
So, where does it say you have to had faith for some time period? It doesn't. Jesus said what he did because the thief's repentence was *genuine* not because of how long he believed.
The thief repented his ways before he died and Jesus accepted it and said what he did. Oddly enough, this is the sole person in the Greek scriptures who Jesus promises his Father's kingdom to.
Ah fuck it, i'm out of this thread. What a *fucking* waste of time discussing any of this is...
I can tell you the Bible is mostly fairy tale, but you won't believe me. Not now, not ever. You can tell me to experience God's love and my answer is that I can't start loving and/or having faith in an invisible beings that is a Hebrew war god by origin.
I could argue that the Bible tells you more on how to destroy your neighbour than to love him, but what's the point? You're not going to believe me, and I'm not going to convince you.
I could also argue that having respect for your neighbours should be something that you inherently have, rather than needed to be taught that by studying religious dogma.
I'll also argue that I probably know the Bible better than most people on this forum, including the bits your pastor won't read to you on a Sunday, but, what's the point?
So, each to their own. If God and the Bible float your boat than more power to you.
Like someone wrote earlier in this thread - having religious or metaphysical arguments online is so much a waste of time it isn't funny.
One day humans will grow out of putting faith in baseless and superstitious beliefs and things will be good. But until then, oh well.
i can tell you that the Bible is true, but you wont believe me. not now, not ever. you can tell me to give up on me experience with God and me answer to that is i cant deny what i know to be true because you dont believe in Him whom you prolly have never even tried to reach.i could argue that the Bible tells you more on how to love your neighbor than to destroy him, but whats the point? youre not going to believe me, and im not going to convince you.
i could also argue that having respect for your neighbor SHOULD be something that you inherently have, rather than needed to be taught that by studying religious dogma. but since its a proven fact that we dont inherently have respect for our neighbors......
ill also argue that i prolly know the Bible better than most people on this forum, including me pastor (especially since i have no pastor), mainly cause i actually read it meself. i dont depend on a MAN to feed me bits.
so, to each their own. if denying God and the Bible float your boat, then more power to you.
like someone wrote earlier in this thread- if having these arguements are so much of a waste.....why are you doing it?
as long as there is a God (and there is), there will never be a day when humans dont worship Him. and believe me, a godless world would NOT be a good thing.
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That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
on the contrary, when the thief recognized his Lord, he did worship Him. up till this point in his life, he hadnt know Jesus. when he met the Lord, he gave his life to him. read up one verse.I haven't said this to you PlanoMM in a while.
"SHUT YER MOUTH"
Cryomatrix
P.S. You know this line above has nothing to do with your post. ME BRUDDER LOL>
lol, where ya been, been missin' that. hee, hee, hee
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