I would also add that SoE doesn't market the game either. Sigil (nominally) does that. And the fact that SoE provides the servers - at a cost I assume - will be why there hasn't been any compensation to the playerbase: Sigil would still have to pay SoE.
That's another reason to boycott any game that SOE is involved in. If they are publishing, doing marketing, hosting servers, etc. they are making money doing it. I don't want to pay for a game that ends up putting money in John Smedley's pockets.
Sigil more than likely has final word on all development decisions regarding Vanguard, but why should that mean SOE has no word whatsoever?
Exactly what's the point of giving SOE royalties for their work in "marketing" if SOE is prohibited from doing their job? There's more to marketing than creating banners and paying to put them up places. Part of marketing is constantly evolving a product to deal with a dynamic market. Our MMO market in the US alone has reached a billion dollars this year, with WoW earning almost half of it in annual revenue.
Without going into how WoW is obviously the perfect guideline for creating a marketable product in today's market; the point is, no amount of promotion from SOE would matter if Vanguard wasn't just as malleable as the pitches to sell it. It should be pretty evident that SOE HAS to influence SGO's design decisions over Vanguard if it's their job to actually sell it.
Anyway, I've never been involved in any of SOE's crimes against it's consumers, so I can't relate to any hate or paranoia. I'm indifferent towards their whole involvement with Sigil, I'm just pointing out that their role in Vanguard is definitely no small one.
I think you're being naive if you don't think SOE has anything to do with Vanguard. Why do you think they were forced to release before the game was ready?
Because Vanguard ran out of money due to poor financial decisions and because they had to buy out Microsoft.
Who do you think came up with the double-xp weekends? Who do you think is really behind the new direction of making the gaming easier to attract more people?
Week 1: Brad McQuaid did. Not SOE. Week 2: Typo: Brad made the decision he had to do it again because they accidentally posted it on their website. Had absolutely nothing to do with SOE
SOE controls the money, therefore SOE controls the direction of the game.
Sigil controls the money. Sony provides as a second party calatlyst/liason between the consumer and the owner just like Visa does when you buy a Stereo at bestbuy. Money goes to Visa. Visa takes .3% and Visa transfer the funds to BestBuy account. Same premise.
And as far as I know SOE is not publishing STO. They are publishing Gods and Heroes which is being developed by the same people working on STO but there hasn't been any determination on who will be publishing STO. You are right, however, in saying that if it is SOE I won't be playing it.
Very sad. All well. You'll be missing a great game
It's not that strange of a concept: It's called a boycott and people do it all the time.
Yup. And in recorded history not one Boycott ever worked that effected a company.
Like I mention. Its your loss. Im not mad at you whatsoever. But you really need to learn how publishers work.
When you watch a movie do you think "ah man that Richard Buckenstein guy really pisses my off as the Producer of Spider Man3...Im not gonna watch it."
or
Do you say "well...those actors sucks...or that director sucks...Im not gonna watch it"
You put too much power in what a pubilsher really does.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
I think you're being naive if you don't think SOE has anything to do with Vanguard. Why do you think they were forced to release before the game was ready? Because Vanguard ran out of money due to poor financial decisions and because they had to buy out Microsoft. Who do you think came up with the double-xp weekends? Who do you think is really behind the new direction of making the gaming easier to attract more people? Week 1: Brad McQuaid did. Not SOE. Week 2: Typo: Brad made the decision he had to do it again because they accidentally posted it on their website. Had absolutely nothing to do with SOE
SOE controls the money, therefore SOE controls the direction of the game. Sigil controls the money. Sony provides as a second party calatlyst/liason between the consumer and the owner just like Visa does when you buy a Stereo at bestbuy. Money goes to Visa. Visa takes .3% and Visa transfer the funds to BestBuy account. Same premise.
And as far as I know SOE is not publishing STO. They are publishing Gods and Heroes which is being developed by the same people working on STO but there hasn't been any determination on who will be publishing STO. You are right, however, in saying that if it is SOE I won't be playing it. Very sad. All well. You'll be missing a great game
It's not that strange of a concept: It's called a boycott and people do it all the time. Yup. And in recorded history not one Boycott ever worked that effected a company.
Like I mention. Its your loss. Im not mad at you whatsoever. But you really need to learn how publishers work.
When you watch a movie do you think "ah man that Richard Buckenstein guy really pisses my off as the Producer of Spider Man3...Im not gonna watch it."
or
Do you say "well...those actors sucks...or that director sucks...Im not gonna watch it"
You put too much power in what a pubilsher really does.
Sorry but...what?
A producer oversees the development of a project, a-la Brad being Executive Producer of Vanguard. How does a producer relate to what a "publisher really does"?
A publisher manufactures the finished product and markets it. Part of marketing is manipulating the product in the first placed based upon market research conducted towards competitors and consumers. It's very easy, if WoW is the biggest competitor and consumes half of the market in annual revenue, then obviously half of the market's consumers like things about WoW and are willing to pay for it. So, to create a marketable product, or at least to avoid a product that isn't marketable...SOE suggests that maybe players like faster experience and smaller death penalties for instance.
Marketing is also an ongoing process, with ongoing research and of course ongoing fine tuning done to the game. It just all has to happen together if it's going to work. It's just difficult to believe SOE would sit aside and let Sigil cripple their ability to market like they want to simply because of some "cool" ideas Brad and company had over a watercooler discussion.
That said...obviously SOE doesn't have total control over Vanguard when it comes to figuring out how to change the product in order to squeeze out every buck. Or else, Vanguard would be apart of the Station Marketplace thing, since obviously someone over at SOE's marketing believes a part of the market loves to buy stuff with real money.
But, with Vanguard Players, double exp weekends, recent WoW-ification patches and so on...it's evident that SOE is exercising some say-so. It's probably just a case of Brad having complete discretion over deciding what advice from SOE is applicable and what isn't.
But, with Vanguard Players, double exp weekends, recent WoW-ification patches and so on...it's evident that SOE is exercising some say-so. It's probably just a case of Brad having complete discretion over deciding what advice from SOE is applicable and what isn't.
In a contract, a Publisher cannot change the development of a game unless the owner of that game gives them the permission to do so.
That's Brad's fault if he decides to give more power to the devil. However, my point still stands; a publisher of a game does not have as much power as you guys think.
Brad could say to Smedly, "Shut the F_ck up...Ill make my own decisions" and Mr Smedly would have to sit there like an ass and listen to Brad. Brad has that power if he wishes. Like I said, Publishers only have the rights to distburse the games and whatever rights that company deems on them in their contract.
Just because SOE is the publisher doesnt mean John Smedly can go and fire Sigil and rework the patches to SOE's bidding. It doesnt work that way.
Its like Stephen King and his book publisher. They can give him some tips as to what to put in his book, but if Mr King says "No" then his book publisher (Harper Collins I believe) has to sit there and take it like a man. The same is true with movie and game publishers.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
I would also add that SoE doesn't market the game either. Sigil (nominally) does that. And the fact that SoE provides the servers - at a cost I assume - will be why there hasn't been any compensation to the playerbase: Sigil would still have to pay SoE.
That's another reason to boycott any game that SOE is involved in. If they are publishing, doing marketing, hosting servers, etc. they are making money doing it. I don't want to pay for a game that ends up putting money in John Smedley's pockets.
You really need to get over that "SOE is the Antichrist" thing.
Most of the things I have seen you whine about being SOE's fault have nothing to do with SOE.
Maybe it is not SOE that has the problem - maybe it is you.
That said...obviously SOE doesn't have total control over Vanguard when it comes to figuring out how to change the product in order to squeeze out every buck. Or else, Vanguard would be apart of the Station Marketplace thing, since obviously someone over at SOE's marketing believes a part of the market loves to buy stuff with real money.
Yeah i was very suprised about that when i first heared about that, i don't understand it nor do i want to understand it why in the hell people would pay rl money to buy ingame items or characters, i feel it can only be done by people that really are unable to play games, as aquiring items and making your character is what makes these games tick, atleast for me they do. They even hired David. D. Christensen who also had worked for IGE which let me to believe they gonna expand that service probebly even more
More none gamers into the gameworld cause they are unable to time-manage their lifes.
Oh oh smg77 near.......... must hide, if she finds me here she gonna say maybe
told me so .............hehe
Well aslong they keep it on their special servers i don't have much problem with it, but i am aware it will create a new breed of gamers as they might get used to service like that and mostlikely will continue to use such service cause it makes gaming for such people somehow more enjoyieble then actualy playing the game.
Well, VG is made with future technology in mind. Even though your pc is good by TODAYS standards maybe in 6 months or a year from now technology will have caught up to VGs standards and you will have bought that new technology and can get better performance in group situations.
Maybe we'll run in to each other in Telon in 12-18months from now
The problem is the game can't be produced and run with future dollars. It has to be run with today's dollars, and if those current funds aren't incoming, then the game will shortly be outgoing.
You really need to get over that "SOE is the Antichrist" thing. Most of the things I have seen you whine about being SOE's fault have nothing to do with SOE. Maybe it is not SOE that has the problem - maybe it is you.
Dude, that was really, really deep. Give me a minute to reflect on your awesomeness.
Well to all the haters, you win. I am probably going to be canceling my sub at least for now. It has nothing to do with the fact I don't like the game though. It has to do with the fact that their min. and rec. specs are BS and I don't see it getting better anytime soon. I have an X2 3800, 2gbs of DDR2 800mhz and an 8800 GTS and while I get 50-60 fps in the wild (of course I still lag at chunks or just random times), if I get into a group it drops to the low 20's or lower. I don't mind this but considering that none of my RL friends can play the game because they don't have a setup like mine, I am pretty much playing alone 90% of the time. The population is incredibly low (this might be due to the huge size of the world) and since I play mmo's to play with other people, VG isn't cutting it atm. Hopefully in a few months, Sigil will have gotten their shit together and either fix their game engine so regular people can play or refunded everyone their money. Till then I guess I'm done with mmo's as nothing else out is any good imho.
Well said, That is the main reason why my guild of 50 people quit vanguard. Issues involving performances. I have more then the minimum spec and i still dip below 5 fps in groups.
Man.. gotta love a thread that attracts all the resident "haters". It's sweet you guys could come together, spew forth enough bullsh!t to fill a swimming pool, then all jump in at the same time.
The original poster was right on, and I respect his view. To bad it had to be dog-piled by the rest of you dillusional "I don't like this game, so noone else will. In fact, I'll warn people to stay away, because it's the right thing to do." crowd.
You really need to get over that "SOE is the Antichrist" thing. Most of the things I have seen you whine about being SOE's fault have nothing to do with SOE. Maybe it is not SOE that has the problem - maybe it is you.
Dude, that was really, really deep. Give me a minute to reflect on your awesomeness.
smg77, Laiina does have a point.
You hate SOE so much that you automatically hate this game. Have you ever played this game? Or do you hate Vanguard which is owned and run by Sigil because you hate SOE. It makes no damn sense.
Even your avatar signature has you bashing the hell out of SOE. Look....you hate SOE with a passion...I think we know this based on 100% of your posts here; it's very obvious. And that's fine. I hate SOE too .....but...
...hanging out in Vangaurd and saying Vanguard sucks because you hate SOE doesnt make a lick of sense. SOE had nothing to do with the development of the game. It has nothing to do with the patches, it has nothing to do with Sigil. Seriously, if you hate SOE so much you really should be over at Star Wars Galaxies or EverQuest 2 or Matrix Online or Everquest or Planetside. Those game either were developed by SOE or now is being continued with SOE.
If you hate Vanguard at least have a valid reason why you hate it (like you think Sigil sucks, the coding sucks, the FPS sucks, or something like that) give some Sigil/Vanguard reasons but dont hate a game because of a situation that does not exist.
You know its bad when a fellow "hater" of Vangaurd has to defend the game lol.....however, I have to speak up. I hate Vanguard to but you really need to point the finger to the correct people.
You remind me of those people who blame the devil for everything. Someone kills their parents and they said the Devil made me do it or someone gets caught drinking and driving or had an affair and they say the devil made me do it. Yes, the devil is a bad person and he sucks, but when you go around blaming the devil for everything people are just going to stop taking you seriously.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Man.. gotta love a thread that attracts all the resident "haters". It's sweet you guys could come together, spew forth enough bullsh!t to fill a swimming pool, then all jump in at the same time. The original poster was right on, and I respect his view. To bad it had to be dog-piled by the rest of you dillusional "I don't like this game, so noone else will. In fact, I'll warn people to stay away, because it's the right thing to do." crowd.
yeah....all of us haters are these secret people who came out of the woodwork and shadows who never played the game or who was never was a fan of the game or never followed the game for the last four years.
....maybe there is a reason why there is so many people here who hate the game. There could be a correlation between that and Vanguard. Maybe?
But seriously,
I have seen just as many bad vanbois as i have haters. Your arguments would have been valued if you seen the people who didnt like the game give a 30 page synopsis of why they dont like it and why others would be waisting their money buying it only for the vanbois to blurt out the exact same immature statement you did.
The fact is this:
1. These forums arent censored like FoH, Silky Venom, and Tentonhammer is. If you dont want to see people posting negatively about a game you're gonna have to either skip those threads, read em and deal with it, or not go here at all. Sorry.....but when you feel taken advantaged of by Sigil, you're gonna post about it over and over. Its human nature.
2. These forums do get moderated. If someone says something totally out of line and attack someone else's character because they do like the game then report them. Other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; whether its a thought out written one or not.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Man.. gotta love a thread that attracts all the resident "haters". It's sweet you guys could come together, spew forth enough bullsh!t to fill a swimming pool, then all jump in at the same time. The original poster was right on, and I respect his view. To bad it had to be dog-piled by the rest of you dillusional "I don't like this game, so noone else will. In fact, I'll warn people to stay away, because it's the right thing to do." crowd.
yeah....all of us haters are these secret people who came out of the woodwork and shadows who never played the game or who was never was a fan of the game or never followed the game for the last four years.
....maybe there is a reason why there is so many people here who hate the game. There could be a correlation between that and Vanguard. Maybe?
But seriously,
I have seen just as many bad vanbois as i have haters. Your arguments would have been valued if you seen the people who didnt like the game give a 30 page synopsis of why they dont like it and why others would be waisting their money buying it only for the vanbois to blurt out the exact same immature statement you did.
The fact is this:
1. These forums arent censored like FoH, Silky Venom, and Tentonhammer is. If you dont want to see people posting negatively about a game you're gonna have to either skip those threads, read em and deal with it, or not go here at all. Sorry.....but when you feel taken advantaged of by Sigil, you're gonna post about it over and over. Its human nature.
2. These forums do get moderated. If someone says something totally out of line and attack someone else's character because they do like the game then report them. Other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; whether its a thought out written one or not.
I'm not concerned if you value my arguments or not. Ive been frequenting this board since closed beta.. trust me I witnessed what you are talking about. There were just as many constructive positive posts torn to shreads by immature remarks as well. That street goes both ways, I'm sad to see you try to make a point on such shaky ground.
My favorite part of your post... "there is so many people here who hate the game". If by "so many" you mean the 15-20 that frequent this forum, the ones who my post was directed at, then you need to come to grips with reality. You are the minority, plain and simple, it's just hard to tell becuase you inflate every thread on this board with the same old BS.
But, with Vanguard Players, double exp weekends, recent WoW-ification patches and so on...it's evident that SOE is exercising some say-so. It's probably just a case of Brad having complete discretion over deciding what advice from SOE is applicable and what isn't.
In a contract, a Publisher cannot change the development of a game unless the owner of that game gives them the permission to do so.
That's Brad's fault if he decides to give more power to the devil. However, my point still stands; a publisher of a game does not have as much power as you guys think.
Brad could say to Smedly, "Shut the F_ck up...Ill make my own decisions" and Mr Smedly would have to sit there like an ass and listen to Brad. Brad has that power if he wishes. Like I said, Publishers only have the rights to distburse the games and whatever rights that company deems on them in their contract.
Just because SOE is the publisher doesnt mean John Smedly can go and fire Sigil and rework the patches to SOE's bidding. It doesnt work that way.
Its like Stephen King and his book publisher. They can give him some tips as to what to put in his book, but if Mr King says "No" then his book publisher (Harper Collins I believe) has to sit there and take it like a man. The same is true with movie and game publishers.
Yeah, but the point is, Brad more than likely hasn't said "no" to every single thing that SOE suggested. So if even one suggestion made it through (quite a few are evident as is), then it's fact that SOE has some control over Vanguard.
Now, does that mean folks should get carried away and think Vanguard is on it's way to a SWG-esque fate? Nope. But people will do it anyway. I can understand why Sigil wouldn't want to comment on just where every single idea or change originated from with all the bad stigma they get from SOE, but it's still worth being realistic about the matter.
Brad's more than likely the bottom line, but ultimately it's SOE's job to sell the game. If the game hasn't been selling well (doesn't seem to be), and the case thus far has been that Brad has been listening to SOE less than he should've, then in my opinion, we can only expect increasing SOE influence down the line. I'd hope so, if SOE were able to reverse the situation of Vanguard better than Sigil could.
I'm not concerned if you value my arguments or not. Ive been frequenting this board since closed beta.. trust me I witnessed what you are talking about. There were just as many constructive positive posts torn to shreads by immature remarks as well. That street goes both ways, I'm sad to see you try to make a point on such shaky ground.
My favorite part of your post... "there is so many people here who hate the game". If by "so many" you mean the 15-20 that frequent this forum, the ones who my post was directed at, then you need to come to grips with reality. You are the minority, plain and simple, it's just hard to tell becuase you inflate every thread on this board with the same old BS.
Now that I am enjoying VG (inspite of my expectations) I just come here to watch the dog and pony show!!!
Man.. gotta love a thread that attracts all the resident "haters". It's sweet you guys could come together, spew forth enough bullsh!t to fill a swimming pool, then all jump in at the same time. The original poster was right on, and I respect his view. To bad it had to be dog-piled by the rest of you dillusional "I don't like this game, so noone else will. In fact, I'll warn people to stay away, because it's the right thing to do." crowd.
yeah....all of us haters are these secret people who came out of the woodwork and shadows who never played the game or who was never was a fan of the game or never followed the game for the last four years.
....maybe there is a reason why there is so many people here who hate the game. There could be a correlation between that and Vanguard. Maybe?
But seriously,
I have seen just as many bad vanbois as i have haters. Your arguments would have been valued if you seen the people who didnt like the game give a 30 page synopsis of why they dont like it and why others would be waisting their money buying it only for the vanbois to blurt out the exact same immature statement you did.
The fact is this:
1. These forums arent censored like FoH, Silky Venom, and Tentonhammer is. If you dont want to see people posting negatively about a game you're gonna have to either skip those threads, read em and deal with it, or not go here at all. Sorry.....but when you feel taken advantaged of by Sigil, you're gonna post about it over and over. Its human nature.
2. These forums do get moderated. If someone says something totally out of line and attack someone else's character because they do like the game then report them. Other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; whether its a thought out written one or not.
I'm not concerned if you value my arguments or not. Ive been frequenting this board since closed beta.. trust me I witnessed what you are talking about. There were just as many constructive positive posts torn to shreads by immature remarks as well. That street goes both ways, I'm sad to see you try to make a point on such shaky ground.
My favorite part of your post... "there is so many people here who hate the game". If by "so many" you mean the 15-20 that frequent this forum, the ones who my post was directed at, then you need to come to grips with reality. You are the minority, plain and simple, it's just hard to tell becuase you inflate every thread on this board with the same old BS.
Show us sub numbers, and we will believe that you are better than the 'haters that spew forth lies'. Until then I am afraid YOU are in the minority because the fact is, the majority don't even give a shit about VG. Either they havn't tried it or they can judge for themselves whether this was another hyped up mmo that lacked any innovation what so ever.
The minority are you, fans of this game. The rest of us are either 'haters', 'realists' or we just plain don't give a shit.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
From my experience, there are two types of games (MMO's mostly) that handle lag and fps.
The first one does it, IMO, the right way. Your frames stay the same, but the character models "warp" when affected by lag. The second, which is Vanguard, handles lag poorly. Instead of letting the latency and internet part handle the lag, it handles it in terms of fps. Instead of characters "warping" around because of lag (Client loses their info, but gets it back causing a "warp") it decides to LAG EVERYTHING!
I don't understand why your fps has to do with your internet latency or server latency. Most games handle it by keeping the fps seperate from the latency issues.
I know it's the latency's fault for causing lag in cities too, I've proven it to myself. The character models, movement, and animations do NOT justify the heavy drop in fps. On the contary, the fps only drops when it is in a laggy area. In a less laggy area, with the same number of pixels, character models, animations, etc, the fps DON'T drop. Also the fact I can turn my game to MAX PERFORMANCE, walk into a city area with NO PLAYER MODELS on screen, and drop to 5 fps because it's so laggy.
Fps dropping has to be because of your computer not being able ot handle the pixels, or the server/client latency lowering your fps to be one with the lag. I've tested the polygon, pixel, character models/movement part, and my comp can perfectly handle it. It's only when encountering a player character that lag occurs.
Unless I'm somehow mistaken and ignorant, I do not see how their character model and movement is so draining on my comp, despite the fact that I can have a TON more npc character models and movement without any fps drop. It's HAS to do with the other client's latency in relation to yours and the server. Thus, unless I'm missing something, it HAS to do with the fact they decided to handle lag by freezing everyone's frames (a.k.a. lowering them to become "one" with the bad latency)
For Vanguard....... Latency = fps
I don't see any other explanation.
It is NOT a hardware problem on our (the client/consumer's) end. It's a problem with their server/latency when it comes to not being able to handle multiple players and the fact some genius decided to handle lag by dropping fps, instead of the famous "connect/disconnect warp"
That said..................WTF? Why would you EVER drop someone's fps based on bad latency? Some games, mainly the good ones, handle latency by "warping" the characters, not lagging EVERYONE'S fps!!!!!!!! WTF?
Man.. gotta love a thread that attracts all the resident "haters". It's sweet you guys could come together, spew forth enough bullsh!t to fill a swimming pool, then all jump in at the same time. The original poster was right on, and I respect his view. To bad it had to be dog-piled by the rest of you dillusional "I don't like this game, so noone else will. In fact, I'll warn people to stay away, because it's the right thing to do." crowd.
yeah....all of us haters are these secret people who came out of the woodwork and shadows who never played the game or who was never was a fan of the game or never followed the game for the last four years.
....maybe there is a reason why there is so many people here who hate the game. There could be a correlation between that and Vanguard. Maybe?
But seriously,
I have seen just as many bad vanbois as i have haters. Your arguments would have been valued if you seen the people who didnt like the game give a 30 page synopsis of why they dont like it and why others would be waisting their money buying it only for the vanbois to blurt out the exact same immature statement you did.
The fact is this:
1. These forums arent censored like FoH, Silky Venom, and Tentonhammer is. If you dont want to see people posting negatively about a game you're gonna have to either skip those threads, read em and deal with it, or not go here at all. Sorry.....but when you feel taken advantaged of by Sigil, you're gonna post about it over and over. Its human nature.
2. These forums do get moderated. If someone says something totally out of line and attack someone else's character because they do like the game then report them. Other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; whether its a thought out written one or not.
I'm not concerned if you value my arguments or not. Ive been frequenting this board since closed beta.. trust me I witnessed what you are talking about. There were just as many constructive positive posts torn to shreads by immature remarks as well. That street goes both ways, I'm sad to see you try to make a point on such shaky ground.
My favorite part of your post... "there is so many people here who hate the game". If by "so many" you mean the 15-20 that frequent this forum, the ones who my post was directed at, then you need to come to grips with reality. You are the minority, plain and simple, it's just hard to tell becuase you inflate every thread on this board with the same old BS.
Show us sub numbers, and we will believe that you are better than the 'haters that spew forth lies'. Until then I am afraid YOU are in the minority because the fact is, the majority don't even give a shit about VG. Either they havn't tried it or they can judge for themselves whether this was another hyped up mmo that lacked any innovation what so ever.
The minority are you, fans of this game. The rest of us are either 'haters', 'realists' or we just plain don't give a shit.
The post you are replying to by Dawgrum, posted on 4/14/07 1:24:39 PM
Originally posted by xAlrythx
Originally posted by Dawgrum
Originally posted by Enigma
Originally posted by Dawgrum
Man.. gotta love a thread that attracts all the resident "haters". It's sweet you guys could come together, spew forth enough bullsh!t to fill a swimming pool, then all jump in at the same time. The original poster was right on, and I respect his view. To bad it had to be dog-piled by the rest of you dillusional "I don't like this game, so noone else will. In fact, I'll warn people to stay away, because it's the right thing to do." crowd.
yeah....all of us haters are these secret people who came out of the woodwork and shadows who never played the game or who was never was a fan of the game or never followed the game for the last four years.
....maybe there is a reason why there is so many people here who hate the game. There could be a correlation between that and Vanguard. Maybe?
But seriously,
I have seen just as many bad vanbois as i have haters. Your arguments would have been valued if you seen the people who didnt like the game give a 30 page synopsis of why they dont like it and why others would be waisting their money buying it only for the vanbois to blurt out the exact same immature statement you did.
The fact is this:
1. These forums arent censored like FoH, Silky Venom, and Tentonhammer is. If you dont want to see people posting negatively about a game you're gonna have to either skip those threads, read em and deal with it, or not go here at all. Sorry.....but when you feel taken advantaged of by Sigil, you're gonna post about it over and over. Its human nature.
2. These forums do get moderated. If someone says something totally out of line and attack someone else's character because they do like the game then report them. Other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; whether its a thought out written one or not.
I'm not concerned if you value my arguments or not. Ive been frequenting this board since closed beta.. trust me I witnessed what you are talking about. There were just as many constructive positive posts torn to shreads by immature remarks as well. That street goes both ways, I'm sad to see you try to make a point on such shaky ground.
My favorite part of your post... "there is so many people here who hate the game". If by "so many" you mean the 15-20 that frequent this forum, the ones who my post was directed at, then you need to come to grips with reality. You are the minority, plain and simple, it's just hard to tell becuase you inflate every thread on this board with the same old BS.
Show us sub numbers, and we will believe that you are better than the 'haters that spew forth lies'. Until then I am afraid YOU are in the minority because the fact is, the majority don't even give a shit about VG. Either they havn't tried it or they can judge for themselves whether this was another hyped up mmo that lacked any innovation what so ever.
The minority are you, fans of this game. The rest of us are either 'haters', 'realists' or we just plain don't give a shit.
...hanging out in Vangaurd and saying Vanguard sucks because you hate SOE doesnt make a lick of sense. SOE had nothing to do with the development of the game. It has nothing to do with the patches, it has nothing to do with Sigil. Seriously, if you hate SOE so much you really should be over at Star Wars Galaxies or EverQuest 2 or Matrix Online or Everquest or Planetside. Those game either were developed by SOE or now is being continued with SOE.
I have never said that SOE is responsible for Vanguard being a crappy game. What I have said is that I believe they are responsible for things like double xp weekends, making the game less hardcore and forcing Brad to ease up on things like xp rate and travel time. I have also said that I believe that eventually Sigil will sell the game outright to SOE and that SOE will then inflict an NGE-style update on the game.
You are taking my position and making it a lot more complicated than it really is. The reason that I spend a lot of time in the Vanguard forum is because I don't want other developers to team up with SOE in the future. If Sigil had stayed with Microsoft I likely would have bought the game when it was released and played it. Based on things I have seen since release I doubt I would have stayed but I would have given it a chance but the fact that they got into bed with SOE just saved me the hassle because even if Vanguard had been a great game, I believe that SOE would have screwed it up somehow.
i'd just like to say Enigma, I truly respect you and enjoy reading your posts. Its great to have you at MMORPG bringing some class to the boards.
Dawgrum, if you are a MMORPG "hater", do as you fans always say and "go back to Silkyvenom"(WoW). You like the game, others don't, deal.
This thread is far more mild than most of the so called hater threads I've seen on these boards. I for one, am enjoying the discussion.
Friend, I'm not playing Vanguard atm, I don't have any agenda behind my posts. I believe you, I just don't agree with the assumption that its 15-20 people who come here to bash the game. I will agree that there are some who are more vocal in their dislike though.
Comments
Exactly what's the point of giving SOE royalties for their work in "marketing" if SOE is prohibited from doing their job? There's more to marketing than creating banners and paying to put them up places. Part of marketing is constantly evolving a product to deal with a dynamic market. Our MMO market in the US alone has reached a billion dollars this year, with WoW earning almost half of it in annual revenue.
Without going into how WoW is obviously the perfect guideline for creating a marketable product in today's market; the point is, no amount of promotion from SOE would matter if Vanguard wasn't just as malleable as the pitches to sell it. It should be pretty evident that SOE HAS to influence SGO's design decisions over Vanguard if it's their job to actually sell it.
Anyway, I've never been involved in any of SOE's crimes against it's consumers, so I can't relate to any hate or paranoia. I'm indifferent towards their whole involvement with Sigil, I'm just pointing out that their role in Vanguard is definitely no small one.
Like I mention. Its your loss. Im not mad at you whatsoever. But you really need to learn how publishers work.
When you watch a movie do you think "ah man that Richard Buckenstein guy really pisses my off as the Producer of Spider Man3...Im not gonna watch it."
or
Do you say "well...those actors sucks...or that director sucks...Im not gonna watch it"
You put too much power in what a pubilsher really does.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Like I mention. Its your loss. Im not mad at you whatsoever. But you really need to learn how publishers work.
When you watch a movie do you think "ah man that Richard Buckenstein guy really pisses my off as the Producer of Spider Man3...Im not gonna watch it."
or
Do you say "well...those actors sucks...or that director sucks...Im not gonna watch it"
You put too much power in what a pubilsher really does.
Sorry but...what?A producer oversees the development of a project, a-la Brad being Executive Producer of Vanguard. How does a producer relate to what a "publisher really does"?
A publisher manufactures the finished product and markets it. Part of marketing is manipulating the product in the first placed based upon market research conducted towards competitors and consumers. It's very easy, if WoW is the biggest competitor and consumes half of the market in annual revenue, then obviously half of the market's consumers like things about WoW and are willing to pay for it. So, to create a marketable product, or at least to avoid a product that isn't marketable...SOE suggests that maybe players like faster experience and smaller death penalties for instance.
Marketing is also an ongoing process, with ongoing research and of course ongoing fine tuning done to the game. It just all has to happen together if it's going to work. It's just difficult to believe SOE would sit aside and let Sigil cripple their ability to market like they want to simply because of some "cool" ideas Brad and company had over a watercooler discussion.
That said...obviously SOE doesn't have total control over Vanguard when it comes to figuring out how to change the product in order to squeeze out every buck. Or else, Vanguard would be apart of the Station Marketplace thing, since obviously someone over at SOE's marketing believes a part of the market loves to buy stuff with real money.
But, with Vanguard Players, double exp weekends, recent WoW-ification patches and so on...it's evident that SOE is exercising some say-so. It's probably just a case of Brad having complete discretion over deciding what advice from SOE is applicable and what isn't.
In a contract, a Publisher cannot change the development of a game unless the owner of that game gives them the permission to do so.
That's Brad's fault if he decides to give more power to the devil. However, my point still stands; a publisher of a game does not have as much power as you guys think.
Brad could say to Smedly, "Shut the F_ck up...Ill make my own decisions" and Mr Smedly would have to sit there like an ass and listen to Brad. Brad has that power if he wishes. Like I said, Publishers only have the rights to distburse the games and whatever rights that company deems on them in their contract.
Just because SOE is the publisher doesnt mean John Smedly can go and fire Sigil and rework the patches to SOE's bidding. It doesnt work that way.
Its like Stephen King and his book publisher. They can give him some tips as to what to put in his book, but if Mr King says "No" then his book publisher (Harper Collins I believe) has to sit there and take it like a man. The same is true with movie and game publishers.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
You really need to get over that "SOE is the Antichrist" thing.
Most of the things I have seen you whine about being SOE's fault have nothing to do with SOE.
Maybe it is not SOE that has the problem - maybe it is you.
Yeah i was very suprised about that when i first heared about that, i don't understand it nor do i want to understand it why in the hell people would pay rl money to buy ingame items or characters, i feel it can only be done by people that really are unable to play games, as aquiring items and making your character is what makes these games tick, atleast for me they do. They even hired David. D. Christensen who also had worked for IGE
More none gamers into the gameworld cause they are unable to time-manage their lifes.
Oh oh smg77 near.......... must hide, if she finds me here she gonna say maybe
told me so
.............hehe
Well aslong they keep it on their special servers i don't have much problem with it, but i am aware it will create a new breed of gamers as they might get used to service like that and mostlikely will continue to use such service cause it makes gaming for such people somehow more enjoyieble then actualy playing the game.
Man.. gotta love a thread that attracts all the resident "haters". It's sweet you guys could come together, spew forth enough bullsh!t to fill a swimming pool, then all jump in at the same time.
The original poster was right on, and I respect his view. To bad it had to be dog-piled by the rest of you dillusional "I don't like this game, so noone else will. In fact, I'll warn people to stay away, because it's the right thing to do." crowd.
smg77, Laiina does have a point.
You hate SOE so much that you automatically hate this game. Have you ever played this game? Or do you hate Vanguard which is owned and run by Sigil because you hate SOE. It makes no damn sense.
Even your avatar signature has you bashing the hell out of SOE. Look....you hate SOE with a passion...I think we know this based on 100% of your posts here; it's very obvious. And that's fine. I hate SOE too .....but...
...hanging out in Vangaurd and saying Vanguard sucks because you hate SOE doesnt make a lick of sense. SOE had nothing to do with the development of the game. It has nothing to do with the patches, it has nothing to do with Sigil. Seriously, if you hate SOE so much you really should be over at Star Wars Galaxies or EverQuest 2 or Matrix Online or Everquest or Planetside. Those game either were developed by SOE or now is being continued with SOE.
If you hate Vanguard at least have a valid reason why you hate it (like you think Sigil sucks, the coding sucks, the FPS sucks, or something like that) give some Sigil/Vanguard reasons but dont hate a game because of a situation that does not exist.
You know its bad when a fellow "hater" of Vangaurd has to defend the game lol.....however, I have to speak up. I hate Vanguard to but you really need to point the finger to the correct people.
You remind me of those people who blame the devil for everything. Someone kills their parents and they said the Devil made me do it or someone gets caught drinking and driving or had an affair and they say the devil made me do it. Yes, the devil is a bad person and he sucks, but when you go around blaming the devil for everything people are just going to stop taking you seriously.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
yeah....all of us haters are these secret people who came out of the woodwork and shadows who never played the game or who was never was a fan of the game or never followed the game for the last four years.
....maybe there is a reason why there is so many people here who hate the game. There could be a correlation between that and Vanguard. Maybe?
But seriously,
I have seen just as many bad vanbois as i have haters. Your arguments would have been valued if you seen the people who didnt like the game give a 30 page synopsis of why they dont like it and why others would be waisting their money buying it only for the vanbois to blurt out the exact same immature statement you did.
The fact is this:
1. These forums arent censored like FoH, Silky Venom, and Tentonhammer is. If you dont want to see people posting negatively about a game you're gonna have to either skip those threads, read em and deal with it, or not go here at all. Sorry.....but when you feel taken advantaged of by Sigil, you're gonna post about it over and over. Its human nature.
2. These forums do get moderated. If someone says something totally out of line and attack someone else's character because they do like the game then report them. Other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; whether its a thought out written one or not.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
yeah....all of us haters are these secret people who came out of the woodwork and shadows who never played the game or who was never was a fan of the game or never followed the game for the last four years.
....maybe there is a reason why there is so many people here who hate the game. There could be a correlation between that and Vanguard. Maybe?
But seriously,
I have seen just as many bad vanbois as i have haters. Your arguments would have been valued if you seen the people who didnt like the game give a 30 page synopsis of why they dont like it and why others would be waisting their money buying it only for the vanbois to blurt out the exact same immature statement you did.
The fact is this:
1. These forums arent censored like FoH, Silky Venom, and Tentonhammer is. If you dont want to see people posting negatively about a game you're gonna have to either skip those threads, read em and deal with it, or not go here at all. Sorry.....but when you feel taken advantaged of by Sigil, you're gonna post about it over and over. Its human nature.
2. These forums do get moderated. If someone says something totally out of line and attack someone else's character because they do like the game then report them. Other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; whether its a thought out written one or not.
I'm not concerned if you value my arguments or not. Ive been frequenting this board since closed beta.. trust me I witnessed what you are talking about. There were just as many constructive positive posts torn to shreads by immature remarks as well. That street goes both ways, I'm sad to see you try to make a point on such shaky ground.
My favorite part of your post... "there is so many people here who hate the game". If by "so many" you mean the 15-20 that frequent this forum, the ones who my post was directed at, then you need to come to grips with reality. You are the minority, plain and simple, it's just hard to tell becuase you inflate every thread on this board with the same old BS.
In a contract, a Publisher cannot change the development of a game unless the owner of that game gives them the permission to do so.
That's Brad's fault if he decides to give more power to the devil. However, my point still stands; a publisher of a game does not have as much power as you guys think.
Brad could say to Smedly, "Shut the F_ck up...Ill make my own decisions" and Mr Smedly would have to sit there like an ass and listen to Brad. Brad has that power if he wishes. Like I said, Publishers only have the rights to distburse the games and whatever rights that company deems on them in their contract.
Just because SOE is the publisher doesnt mean John Smedly can go and fire Sigil and rework the patches to SOE's bidding. It doesnt work that way.
Its like Stephen King and his book publisher. They can give him some tips as to what to put in his book, but if Mr King says "No" then his book publisher (Harper Collins I believe) has to sit there and take it like a man. The same is true with movie and game publishers.
Yeah, but the point is, Brad more than likely hasn't said "no" to every single thing that SOE suggested. So if even one suggestion made it through (quite a few are evident as is), then it's fact that SOE has some control over Vanguard.Now, does that mean folks should get carried away and think Vanguard is on it's way to a SWG-esque fate? Nope. But people will do it anyway. I can understand why Sigil wouldn't want to comment on just where every single idea or change originated from with all the bad stigma they get from SOE, but it's still worth being realistic about the matter.
Brad's more than likely the bottom line, but ultimately it's SOE's job to sell the game. If the game hasn't been selling well (doesn't seem to be), and the case thus far has been that Brad has been listening to SOE less than he should've, then in my opinion, we can only expect increasing SOE influence down the line. I'd hope so, if SOE were able to reverse the situation of Vanguard better than Sigil could.
I'm not concerned if you value my arguments or not. Ive been frequenting this board since closed beta.. trust me I witnessed what you are talking about. There were just as many constructive positive posts torn to shreads by immature remarks as well. That street goes both ways, I'm sad to see you try to make a point on such shaky ground.
My favorite part of your post... "there is so many people here who hate the game". If by "so many" you mean the 15-20 that frequent this forum, the ones who my post was directed at, then you need to come to grips with reality. You are the minority, plain and simple, it's just hard to tell becuase you inflate every thread on this board with the same old BS.
Now that I am enjoying VG (inspite of my expectations) I just come here to watch the dog and pony show!!!All 15 of the hardcore haters are very funny!!!
yeah....all of us haters are these secret people who came out of the woodwork and shadows who never played the game or who was never was a fan of the game or never followed the game for the last four years.
....maybe there is a reason why there is so many people here who hate the game. There could be a correlation between that and Vanguard. Maybe?
But seriously,
I have seen just as many bad vanbois as i have haters. Your arguments would have been valued if you seen the people who didnt like the game give a 30 page synopsis of why they dont like it and why others would be waisting their money buying it only for the vanbois to blurt out the exact same immature statement you did.
The fact is this:
1. These forums arent censored like FoH, Silky Venom, and Tentonhammer is. If you dont want to see people posting negatively about a game you're gonna have to either skip those threads, read em and deal with it, or not go here at all. Sorry.....but when you feel taken advantaged of by Sigil, you're gonna post about it over and over. Its human nature.
2. These forums do get moderated. If someone says something totally out of line and attack someone else's character because they do like the game then report them. Other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; whether its a thought out written one or not.
I'm not concerned if you value my arguments or not. Ive been frequenting this board since closed beta.. trust me I witnessed what you are talking about. There were just as many constructive positive posts torn to shreads by immature remarks as well. That street goes both ways, I'm sad to see you try to make a point on such shaky ground.
My favorite part of your post... "there is so many people here who hate the game". If by "so many" you mean the 15-20 that frequent this forum, the ones who my post was directed at, then you need to come to grips with reality. You are the minority, plain and simple, it's just hard to tell becuase you inflate every thread on this board with the same old BS.
Show us sub numbers, and we will believe that you are better than the 'haters that spew forth lies'. Until then I am afraid YOU are in the minority because the fact is, the majority don't even give a shit about VG. Either they havn't tried it or they can judge for themselves whether this was another hyped up mmo that lacked any innovation what so ever.
The minority are you, fans of this game. The rest of us are either 'haters', 'realists' or we just plain don't give a shit.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs
Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW
Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
From my experience, there are two types of games (MMO's mostly) that handle lag and fps.
The first one does it, IMO, the right way. Your frames stay the same, but the character models "warp" when affected by lag. The second, which is Vanguard, handles lag poorly. Instead of letting the latency and internet part handle the lag, it handles it in terms of fps. Instead of characters "warping" around because of lag (Client loses their info, but gets it back causing a "warp") it decides to LAG EVERYTHING!
I don't understand why your fps has to do with your internet latency or server latency. Most games handle it by keeping the fps seperate from the latency issues.
I know it's the latency's fault for causing lag in cities too, I've proven it to myself. The character models, movement, and animations do NOT justify the heavy drop in fps. On the contary, the fps only drops when it is in a laggy area. In a less laggy area, with the same number of pixels, character models, animations, etc, the fps DON'T drop. Also the fact I can turn my game to MAX PERFORMANCE, walk into a city area with NO PLAYER MODELS on screen, and drop to 5 fps because it's so laggy.
Fps dropping has to be because of your computer not being able ot handle the pixels, or the server/client latency lowering your fps to be one with the lag. I've tested the polygon, pixel, character models/movement part, and my comp can perfectly handle it. It's only when encountering a player character that lag occurs.
Unless I'm somehow mistaken and ignorant, I do not see how their character model and movement is so draining on my comp, despite the fact that I can have a TON more npc character models and movement without any fps drop. It's HAS to do with the other client's latency in relation to yours and the server. Thus, unless I'm missing something, it HAS to do with the fact they decided to handle lag by freezing everyone's frames (a.k.a. lowering them to become "one" with the bad latency)
For Vanguard....... Latency = fps
I don't see any other explanation.
It is NOT a hardware problem on our (the client/consumer's) end. It's a problem with their server/latency when it comes to not being able to handle multiple players and the fact some genius decided to handle lag by dropping fps, instead of the famous "connect/disconnect warp"
That said..................WTF? Why would you EVER drop someone's fps based on bad latency? Some games, mainly the good ones, handle latency by "warping" the characters, not lagging EVERYONE'S fps!!!!!!!! WTF?
yeah....all of us haters are these secret people who came out of the woodwork and shadows who never played the game or who was never was a fan of the game or never followed the game for the last four years.
....maybe there is a reason why there is so many people here who hate the game. There could be a correlation between that and Vanguard. Maybe?
But seriously,
I have seen just as many bad vanbois as i have haters. Your arguments would have been valued if you seen the people who didnt like the game give a 30 page synopsis of why they dont like it and why others would be waisting their money buying it only for the vanbois to blurt out the exact same immature statement you did.
The fact is this:
1. These forums arent censored like FoH, Silky Venom, and Tentonhammer is. If you dont want to see people posting negatively about a game you're gonna have to either skip those threads, read em and deal with it, or not go here at all. Sorry.....but when you feel taken advantaged of by Sigil, you're gonna post about it over and over. Its human nature.
2. These forums do get moderated. If someone says something totally out of line and attack someone else's character because they do like the game then report them. Other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; whether its a thought out written one or not.
I'm not concerned if you value my arguments or not. Ive been frequenting this board since closed beta.. trust me I witnessed what you are talking about. There were just as many constructive positive posts torn to shreads by immature remarks as well. That street goes both ways, I'm sad to see you try to make a point on such shaky ground.
My favorite part of your post... "there is so many people here who hate the game". If by "so many" you mean the 15-20 that frequent this forum, the ones who my post was directed at, then you need to come to grips with reality. You are the minority, plain and simple, it's just hard to tell becuase you inflate every thread on this board with the same old BS.
Show us sub numbers, and we will believe that you are better than the 'haters that spew forth lies'. Until then I am afraid YOU are in the minority because the fact is, the majority don't even give a shit about VG. Either they havn't tried it or they can judge for themselves whether this was another hyped up mmo that lacked any innovation what so ever.
The minority are you, fans of this game. The rest of us are either 'haters', 'realists' or we just plain don't give a shit.
irrelevance
Subs has nothing to do with the trolls that frequent this board. Nice try though.
yeah....all of us haters are these secret people who came out of the woodwork and shadows who never played the game or who was never was a fan of the game or never followed the game for the last four years.
....maybe there is a reason why there is so many people here who hate the game. There could be a correlation between that and Vanguard. Maybe?
But seriously,
I have seen just as many bad vanbois as i have haters. Your arguments would have been valued if you seen the people who didnt like the game give a 30 page synopsis of why they dont like it and why others would be waisting their money buying it only for the vanbois to blurt out the exact same immature statement you did.
The fact is this:
1. These forums arent censored like FoH, Silky Venom, and Tentonhammer is. If you dont want to see people posting negatively about a game you're gonna have to either skip those threads, read em and deal with it, or not go here at all. Sorry.....but when you feel taken advantaged of by Sigil, you're gonna post about it over and over. Its human nature.
2. These forums do get moderated. If someone says something totally out of line and attack someone else's character because they do like the game then report them. Other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; whether its a thought out written one or not.
I'm not concerned if you value my arguments or not. Ive been frequenting this board since closed beta.. trust me I witnessed what you are talking about. There were just as many constructive positive posts torn to shreads by immature remarks as well. That street goes both ways, I'm sad to see you try to make a point on such shaky ground.
My favorite part of your post... "there is so many people here who hate the game". If by "so many" you mean the 15-20 that frequent this forum, the ones who my post was directed at, then you need to come to grips with reality. You are the minority, plain and simple, it's just hard to tell becuase you inflate every thread on this board with the same old BS.
Show us sub numbers, and we will believe that you are better than the 'haters that spew forth lies'. Until then I am afraid YOU are in the minority because the fact is, the majority don't even give a shit about VG. Either they havn't tried it or they can judge for themselves whether this was another hyped up mmo that lacked any innovation what so ever.
The minority are you, fans of this game. The rest of us are either 'haters', 'realists' or we just plain don't give a shit.
irrelevance
Subs has nothing to do with the trolls that frequent this board. Nice try though.
Dawgrum, if you are a MMORPG "hater", do as you fans always say and "go back to Silkyvenom"(WoW). You like the game, others don't, deal.
This thread is far more mild than most of the so called hater threads I've seen on these boards. I for one, am enjoying the discussion.
You are taking my position and making it a lot more complicated than it really is. The reason that I spend a lot of time in the Vanguard forum is because I don't want other developers to team up with SOE in the future. If Sigil had stayed with Microsoft I likely would have bought the game when it was released and played it. Based on things I have seen since release I doubt I would have stayed but I would have given it a chance but the fact that they got into bed with SOE just saved me the hassle because even if Vanguard had been a great game, I believe that SOE would have screwed it up somehow.