some things in life should never be "for profit" health care in one of them things It's that simple the health care as a whole world wide should be free and paid for by doing the same as we do here in the UK.
But then why don't you have the best satisfaction in your health care system?
I guess the old saying applies to Health Care as well: You get what you pay for.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
18000 Americans in the United States die a YEAR due to no health coverage.
The health care system in the USA is a FOR PROFIT model. Therefore, the price of drugs are HIGHER. The price of care is HIGHER. The cost of insurance is HIGHER. The quantity of care provided is LESS.
No answer to what I posted huh? Not going to refute the Canadian Justice who said that access to a waiting list does not equal universal healthcare? What about the Italian Prime Minister coming to Cleveland for health care? What about the French needing extra insurance on top of their "free" universal insurance and then on top of it capping Doctor's salaries to well below US levels of income?
I guess none of that matters...
Mhhhhh............
As far as I know we are talking about general healthcare, while you are talking about isolated cases referring to rich people that can afford the best of the treatement.
The fact is that US is cutting edge in research therefore in US you will find usually the best treatment if you can afford it.
Although, the fact that US has the best treatments doesn't make it the best healthcare system as a whole.
As someone pointed out already, if you are poor you die in US, the treatment you gonna receive is proportional to the money you are willing to spend, that doesn't make it a good health care.
In Italy the standards are high and best of all healthcare is free, therefore everyone in Italy can take advantage of a good healthcare, either you are poor or rich.
But obviously if you really can afford it and you want the best and cutting edge treatement US is still a good bet, even for foreigners.
I don't see any contraddiction in this.
Umm how about access to lower quality healthcare doesn't make the healthcare better. I would rather have higher quality care and not necessarily have access to everyone, then lower quality care for all. That coupled with the fact that Patient Satisfaction is rated highest in the US of all countries. That does tell something. IT shows that while we need to try to improve upon the system to get access to more people, private healthcare in fact is better quality then national healthcare that these other countries have.
And it isn't only the rich that have good healthcare. 83% of Americans have access to the world's best healthcare.
When I lived in Canada I got a really deep cut in my foot and had to get stitches. Well, it took about twice as long to heal as it should because when I want the first time the doctor forgot to sew up half of the cut. One incident doesn't prove anything, just thought I'd share.
18000 Americans in the United States die a YEAR due to no health coverage.
The health care system in the USA is a FOR PROFIT model. Therefore, the price of drugs are HIGHER. The price of care is HIGHER. The cost of insurance is HIGHER. The quantity of care provided is LESS.
No answer to what I posted huh? Not going to refute the Canadian Justice who said that access to a waiting list does not equal universal healthcare? What about the Italian Prime Minister coming to Cleveland for health care? What about the French needing extra insurance on top of their "free" universal insurance and then on top of it capping Doctor's salaries to well below US levels of income?
I guess none of that matters...
Mhhhhh............
As far as I know we are talking about general healthcare, while you are talking about isolated cases referring to rich people that can afford the best of the treatement.
The fact is that US is cutting edge in research therefore in US you will find usually the best treatment if you can afford it.
Although, the fact that US has the best treatments doesn't make it the best healthcare system as a whole.
As someone pointed out already, if you are poor you die in US, the treatment you gonna receive is proportional to the money you are willing to spend, that doesn't make it a good health care.
In Italy the standards are high and best of all healthcare is free, therefore everyone in Italy can take advantage of a good healthcare, either you are poor or rich.
But obviously if you really can afford it and you want the best and cutting edge treatement US is still a good bet, even for foreigners.
I don't see any contraddiction in this.
Umm how about access to lower quality healthcare doesn't make the healthcare better. I would rather have higher quality care and not necessarily have access to everyone, then lower quality care for all. That coupled with the fact that Patient Satisfaction is rated highest in the US of all countries. That does tell something. IT shows that while we need to try to improve upon the system to get access to more people, private healthcare in fact is better quality then national healthcare that these other countries have.
And it isn't only the rich that have good healthcare. 83% of Americans have access to the world's best healthcare.
When I lived in Canada I got a really deep cut in my foot and had to get stitches. Well, it took about twice as long to heal as it should because when I want the first time the doctor forgot to sew up half of the cut. One incident doesn't prove anything, just thought I'd share.
We aren't talking about just one incident though. We are talking about a court case that went up to the supreme court and the comments of a supreme court justice. That is different then me saying well I went to the doc and this happened. She said that the system was unconstitutional. That is quite a bit stronger then just the guy needing the hip replacement saying that the service sucks.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
some things in life should never be "for profit" health care in one of them things It's that simple the health care as a whole world wide should be free and paid for by doing the same as we do here in the UK.
But then why don't you have the best satisfaction in your health care system?
I guess the old saying applies to Health Care as well: You get what you pay for.
piss poor management costs us alot and tinkering by whitehall is no help . but inshort the NHS has for far too long been forced into blue sky thinking and not let ppl do the nuts and bolts of health care but on the whole i have never had a problem with the NHS its a good thing cost little and give so much more in return
some things in life should never be "for profit" health care in one of them things It's that simple the health care as a whole world wide should be free and paid for by doing the same as we do here in the UK.
But then why don't you have the best satisfaction in your health care system?
I guess the old saying applies to Health Care as well: You get what you pay for.
piss poor management costs us alot and tinkering by whitehall is no help . but inshort the NHS has for far too long been forced into blue sky thinking and not let ppl do the nuts and bolts of health care but on the whole i have never had a problem with the NHS its a good thing cost little and give so much more in return
Which I am sure is fine for the average day person.
But the fact remains that to get the best care in the world it costs money and that best care can be found in America. Countless foreigners will come to the US to get healthcare because that is where the best specialists are. Countless cutting edge medical methods and research are created in America. Countless new drugs are first created in America. All of these things take money. If we are capping the salaries that the workers will make, or capping the profits that the companies will make they have no reason to put money into R&D to create all of the new cutting edge technology that they can.
Plain and simple yes it is a sad thing that we have Americans who can not get their healthcare. But it is also this same system that has created countless advancements in Medicine throughout the years. That would not be here if we had a social medical program that was capped in their dollars.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
18000 Americans in the United States die a YEAR due to no health coverage.
The health care system in the USA is a FOR PROFIT model. Therefore, the price of drugs are HIGHER. The price of care is HIGHER. The cost of insurance is HIGHER. The quantity of care provided is LESS.
No answer to what I posted huh? Not going to refute the Canadian Justice who said that access to a waiting list does not equal universal healthcare? What about the Italian Prime Minister coming to Cleveland for health care? What about the French needing extra insurance on top of their "free" universal insurance and then on top of it capping Doctor's salaries to well below US levels of income?
I guess none of that matters...
Mhhhhh............
As far as I know we are talking about general healthcare, while you are talking about isolated cases referring to rich people that can afford the best of the treatement.
The fact is that US is cutting edge in research therefore in US you will find usually the best treatment if you can afford it.
Although, the fact that US has the best treatments doesn't make it the best healthcare system as a whole.
As someone pointed out already, if you are poor you die in US, the treatment you gonna receive is proportional to the money you are willing to spend, that doesn't make it a good health care.
In Italy the standards are high and best of all healthcare is free, therefore everyone in Italy can take advantage of a good healthcare, either you are poor or rich.
But obviously if you really can afford it and you want the best and cutting edge treatement US is still a good bet, even for foreigners.
I don't see any contraddiction in this.
Umm how about access to lower quality healthcare doesn't make the healthcare better. I would rather have higher quality care and not necessarily have access to everyone, then lower quality care for all. That coupled with the fact that Patient Satisfaction is rated highest in the US of all countries. That does tell something. IT shows that while we need to try to improve upon the system to get access to more people, private healthcare in fact is better quality then national healthcare that these other countries have.
And it isn't only the rich that have good healthcare. 83% of Americans have access to the world's best healthcare.
When I lived in Canada I got a really deep cut in my foot and had to get stitches. Well, it took about twice as long to heal as it should because when I want the first time the doctor forgot to sew up half of the cut. One incident doesn't prove anything, just thought I'd share.
We aren't talking about just one incident though. We are talking about a court case that went up to the supreme court and the comments of a supreme court justice. That is different then me saying well I went to the doc and this happened. She said that the system was unconstitutional. That is quite a bit stronger then just the guy needing the hip replacement saying that the service sucks.
but I was talking about my one incident. don't give me a hard time if I want to post a barely involved post in the middle of a conversation. Next you'll want me to read what everyone else posted before I chime in.
some things in life should never be "for profit" health care in one of them things It's that simple the health care as a whole world wide should be free and paid for by doing the same as we do here in the UK.
But then why don't you have the best satisfaction in your health care system?
I guess the old saying applies to Health Care as well: You get what you pay for.
piss poor management costs us alot and tinkering by whitehall is no help . but inshort the NHS has for far too long been forced into blue sky thinking and not let ppl do the nuts and bolts of health care but on the whole i have never had a problem with the NHS its a good thing cost little and give so much more in return
Which I am sure is fine for the average day person.
But the fact remains that to get the best care in the world it costs money and that best care can be found in America. Countless foreigners will come to the US to get healthcare because that is where the best specialists are. Countless cutting edge medical methods and research are created in America. Countless new drugs are first created in America. All of these things take money. If we are capping the salaries that the workers will make, or capping the profits that the companies will make they have no reason to put money into R&D to create all of the new cutting edge technology that they can.
Plain and simple yes it is a sad thing that we have Americans who can not get their healthcare. But it is also this same system that has created countless advancements in Medicine throughout the years. That would not be here if we had a social medical program that was capped in their dollars.
you make a great point and i agree for the most part if you're realling interested in this subject you should do some resuch on cuba's health care you might be suprised
In 2004, Pfizer invested $7.68 billion in research and development, the largest investment in R&D by private biomedical research organization.
Pfizer the maker of the world's most popular prescription drug (Lipitor) would not be able to invest such large amounts of money to research if the US become a cost controlled environment.
Do I think they might charge too much? Well of course, but if they are a private entity with stockholders they are required to maximize shareholder profit. That is their ethical duty as a company.
The thing is that I would rather have the inovation and extremely good care that is available in the US, instead of the mediocre care in some of these other countries.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
The American health care isn't the best. You're just too "patriotic" to see it.
So far you've provided nothing but biased and subjective sources.
We both know the "health care satisfaction" song is pure and utter bullshit. The ones who can pay will of course say they're satisfied with their health care. BTW, the WHO took satisfaction into their calculations as clearly stated here. Yet the US ranks 37th. And satisfaction ISN NOT THE SAME AS QUALITY!!!
You also refuse to acknowledge the simple fact that health care for all is a blessing for society. It's pretty simple. More people healthy = more people able to work = more people working = more money. All the countries that are more productive(link to page 83) than the US have universal health care.
That source I provided offers more insight. The US has less available beds (waiting times anyone?) and it is yet again stated that the life expectancy in the US is pretty low in the US compared to other industrialized countries.
You might give some simple reasons why the US life expectancy is this low. You'll probably give the reasons why people die.
So what? There's more old people in Germany and France. Yet they live longer. And spend less of their tax revenue on health care. EVEN WITH ALL THE OLD PEOPLE.
65 years and over: 12.6% (male 15,858,477/female 21,991,195) (2007 est.)
If you now try to tell me child mortality is no biggy then you're barely human. Or barely savvy economical wise.
EDIT: Prove to me it's American companies and American research which produces the most innovations. Couldn't find a source telling me one way or the other. And I'm genuinly interested.
Well I arrived late on this topic, so most of my points have been covered (I am strongly for national healthcare). I would just like to add that national healthcare systems are not the only ones with insane waiting lists and poor service. Here in the US, many doctors are under fire for a recent increase in malpractice incidents all over the country.
Also, three years ago I developed these weird bumps on my left ankle. I went to the doctor a few days later, and he told me to see a dermatologist. There was only one in the entire city that was covered by my health insurance. I called, and they had a 9 month waiting list. In that time, the strange bumps had spread over the entirety of both of my feet and ankles, most of my left leg, and some of my right leg. When I finally got to the appointment in February, I was relieved when they told me it was just a rash and not an infection. They gave me some prescription ointment. So for nine months I went without so much as a diagnosis for what could have been an infection. If it was an infection and not a rash, I probably would have lost both my legs.
EDIT: I was watching the news the other day and I just remembered that they said the average waiting time in the ER in the US is 4 hours, and the reporter was talking about some hospitals that got the ER wait down to 30 minutes, making them among the best in the country. Can you imagine going to the ER with, say a gunshot wound, and having to wait 30 minutes, much less FOUR HOURS?
First of all WTF are these numbers? which country is which and where did you get this data? Secondly on child mortality did you even read my post, the link says why child mortality rates are higher.
65 years and over: 12.6% (male 15,858,477/female 21,991,195) (2007 est.) If you now try to tell me child mortality is no biggy then you're barely human. Or barely savvy economical wise.
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
The American health care isn't the best. You're just too "patriotic" to see it.
So far you've provided nothing but biased and subjective sources.
You also refuse to acknowledge the simple fact that health care for all is a blessing for society. It's pretty simple. More people healthy = more people able to work = more people working = more money. All the countries that are more productive(link to page 83) than the US have universal health care.
And, if you read the graph, MOST of the countries that are worse than the US (which is like 5th or 6th, not bad) have socialized healthcare too. What an assinine, pointless example.
And I suppose the EU's 8% unemployment (compared to the US's 4.5%) is because of it's "superior" healthcare?
The EU takes care of its unemployed better than the USA. So the EU does not have to be underemployed. You have a lot of underemployment in the USA in which experience and skills are not matched with the position or income of one's job.
In the EU we take care of our citizens health, and we have very good safety nets for when they are unemployed. Overall, the EU is more powerful as an economy --the Euro and pound are much, much stronger than the dollar-- and the quality of life is higher.
I know Americans are taught, almost from birth, they are number 1. But in terms of health care, education, income levels, quality of life, life expectancy, and things ... we are better.
The EU takes care of its unemployed better than the USA. So the EU does not have to be underemployed. You have a lot of underemployment in the USA in which experience and skills are not matched with the position or income of one's job.
Well personally I think it's better to work at a job I'm overqualified for for a while than sit on my ass and get a check from the government.
EDIT: Prove to me it's American companies and American research which produces the most innovations. Couldn't find a source telling me one way or the other. And I'm genuinly interested.
Americans won or had a share of winning 14 out of the prior 17 Nobel Prizes in Medicine. I think that shows American research and innovation.
Edit - I went back farther since you might of thought I stopped at a certain point to twist the actual results. Americans were involved either by being the winner or the place where the research was done or sharing in winning 24 out of the last 27 Nobel Prizes. So that is 27 years of research that American's were involved in.
edit - and only one of those years was the work all done out of this country. One of the years when an Australian and swiss won the Nobel the Australian did his work at the St Jude Children's Research hospital in Memphis, Tn USA. (that was 1996).
I could go back farther but I think you can get the point from that right there. That isn't even taken into account drug research which our country foots the bill for (in higher drug costs and government funding) and then the rest of hte world gets teh drug for cheaper.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I went back even further for you Mad and in the last 64 years Americans were involved in 53 of the prizes. ( I stopped there because during WW2 they didn't award anyone, so I thought it would be a good stopping point).
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Well then... If the American innovations are so amazing... Then why the hell can't they solve something as simple as a high infant mortality and a low life expectancy?
Surely with all the wonderfully ready to be applied research conducted by the Americans those problems should be easy to solve, especially considering what a strain they are on society. And they really would have an easy time doing it at a much lowercost than all those "socialist" countries, since they are bound to be less efficient with their universal health care...
Perhaps you should reread the WHO's conclusions, since they took everything into account. Including quality and satisfaction.
I congratulate you on Nobel Prize winnings, but I am not prepared to concede anything.
The American people are without health care and dieing as a result. And those with health care do not receive the full coverage they need and must spend more for drugs and treatment so companies can make money off of their illness. It is a pretty crazy health care system, and it is killing people and leaving millions of your citizens without coverage.
I congratulate you on Nobel Prize winnings, but I am not prepared to concede anything.
The American people are without health care and dieing as a result. And those with health care do not receive the full coverage they need and must spend more for drugs and treatment so companies can make money off of their illness. It is a pretty crazy health care system, and it is killing people and leaving millions of your citizens without coverage.
My point is that the profits that these companies receive allow them to do research. The research allows them to come up with no innovations and drugs which in turn save more lives around the world then could ever be lost in America do to no health coverage.
Think of it this way. If you could only choose one of these options which would you choose?
1. Every american has access to healthcare that is provided for by tax dollars.
2. An American pharmacutical company or biotech company comes up with the a cure for the AIDS Virus.
So honestly which one would you choose?
Yes it is a horrible thing to have Medical Care by profit, but if there was no Medical Care by profit do you honestly think we would of won all of those Nobel Prizes for research done by Americans or in America?
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Now, for the finishing blow, let us look at researc hother than mostly theorethical develoments, like the ones nobel prize winners persue. Not that I want to downsize their wonderful accomplishments.
Now, for the finishing blow, let us look at researc hother than mostly theorethical develoments, like the ones nobel prize winners persue. Not that I want to downsize their wonderful accomplishments. Top 10 pharma companies:
Country Company Sales ($m) Growth (%) Market Share (%)
European market share: 24,5% American market share: 19,7% Europe has a larger health industry than the US. You know what? Let's make it easy. Let's look at all major pharma companies.
Rank 2004 Company Country Healthcare Revenue 2004 (USD millions) Healthcare R&D 2004 (USD millions) Net Income/ (Loss) 2004 (USD millions) Employees 2004
Universal health care countries: 55,584 billion dollars. Non-Universal Health Care country: 34,285 billion dollars.
In conclusion: Those evil socialist countries with universal health care... spend more money on Research and Develoment than the USA.
OH wow are you really going to stoop that low? To compare the rest of the world combined to the US? That is just plain idiotic. I guess the US sucks huh they are only providing 38% of the whole world's research and development and are only what about 4% of the world's population?
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Now, for the finishing blow, let us look at researc hother than mostly theorethical develoments, like the ones nobel prize winners persue. Not that I want to downsize their wonderful accomplishments. Top 10 pharma companies:
Country Company Sales ($m) Growth (%) Market Share (%)
European market share: 24,5% American market share: 19,7% Europe has a larger health industry than the US. You know what? Let's make it easy. Let's look at all major pharma companies.
Rank 2004 Company Country Healthcare Revenue 2004 (USD millions) Healthcare R&D 2004 (USD millions) Net Income/ (Loss) 2004 (USD millions) Employees 2004
Universal health care countries: 55,584 billion dollars. Non-Universal Health Care country: 34,285 billion dollars.
In conclusion: Those evil socialist countries with universal health care... spend more money on Research and Develoment than the USA.
Thank you. I was always very curious about this. In spite of the USA drug companies profits selling overpriced drugs, they do not contribute as much to R&D.
I never said the US sucks. I said they should revise their health care policy.
With stating the US won more nobel prizes... Did you mean to say the rest of the world is dumb and backwards compared to the US? I'm sure you didn't.
I didn't compare the US to the rest of the world. I compared the industrialized country without universal health care to the many other ones that do have it. Not my fault that other economically large countries feel they are responsible for the wellbeing of their people and have universal health care.
You stated the US spent most on R&D (actually you only established that the US jad most nobel prize winners... but I'll humor you) and I proved you wrong.
Comments
I guess the old saying applies to Health Care as well: You get what you pay for.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I guess none of that matters...
Umm how about access to lower quality healthcare doesn't make the healthcare better. I would rather have higher quality care and not necessarily have access to everyone, then lower quality care for all. That coupled with the fact that Patient Satisfaction is rated highest in the US of all countries. That does tell something. IT shows that while we need to try to improve upon the system to get access to more people, private healthcare in fact is better quality then national healthcare that these other countries have.Mhhhhh............
As far as I know we are talking about general healthcare, while you are talking about isolated cases referring to rich people that can afford the best of the treatement.
The fact is that US is cutting edge in research therefore in US you will find usually the best treatment if you can afford it.
Although, the fact that US has the best treatments doesn't make it the best healthcare system as a whole.
As someone pointed out already, if you are poor you die in US, the treatment you gonna receive is proportional to the money you are willing to spend, that doesn't make it a good health care.
In Italy the standards are high and best of all healthcare is free, therefore everyone in Italy can take advantage of a good healthcare, either you are poor or rich.
But obviously if you really can afford it and you want the best and cutting edge treatement US is still a good bet, even for foreigners.
I don't see any contraddiction in this.
And it isn't only the rich that have good healthcare. 83% of Americans have access to the world's best healthcare.
When I lived in Canada I got a really deep cut in my foot and had to get stitches. Well, it took about twice as long to heal as it should because when I want the first time the doctor forgot to sew up half of the cut. One incident doesn't prove anything, just thought I'd share.
member of imminst.org
I guess none of that matters...
Umm how about access to lower quality healthcare doesn't make the healthcare better. I would rather have higher quality care and not necessarily have access to everyone, then lower quality care for all. That coupled with the fact that Patient Satisfaction is rated highest in the US of all countries. That does tell something. IT shows that while we need to try to improve upon the system to get access to more people, private healthcare in fact is better quality then national healthcare that these other countries have.Mhhhhh............
As far as I know we are talking about general healthcare, while you are talking about isolated cases referring to rich people that can afford the best of the treatement.
The fact is that US is cutting edge in research therefore in US you will find usually the best treatment if you can afford it.
Although, the fact that US has the best treatments doesn't make it the best healthcare system as a whole.
As someone pointed out already, if you are poor you die in US, the treatment you gonna receive is proportional to the money you are willing to spend, that doesn't make it a good health care.
In Italy the standards are high and best of all healthcare is free, therefore everyone in Italy can take advantage of a good healthcare, either you are poor or rich.
But obviously if you really can afford it and you want the best and cutting edge treatement US is still a good bet, even for foreigners.
I don't see any contraddiction in this.
And it isn't only the rich that have good healthcare. 83% of Americans have access to the world's best healthcare.
When I lived in Canada I got a really deep cut in my foot and had to get stitches. Well, it took about twice as long to heal as it should because when I want the first time the doctor forgot to sew up half of the cut. One incident doesn't prove anything, just thought I'd share.
We aren't talking about just one incident though. We are talking about a court case that went up to the supreme court and the comments of a supreme court justice. That is different then me saying well I went to the doc and this happened. She said that the system was unconstitutional. That is quite a bit stronger then just the guy needing the hip replacement saying that the service sucks.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I guess the old saying applies to Health Care as well: You get what you pay for.
piss poor management costs us alot and tinkering by whitehall is no help . but inshort the NHS has for far too long been forced into blue sky thinking and not let ppl do the nuts and bolts of health care but on the whole i have never had a problem with the NHS its a good thing cost little and give so much more in returnTin Foil hats dont work.. its all a conspiracy
I guess the old saying applies to Health Care as well: You get what you pay for.
piss poor management costs us alot and tinkering by whitehall is no help . but inshort the NHS has for far too long been forced into blue sky thinking and not let ppl do the nuts and bolts of health care but on the whole i have never had a problem with the NHS its a good thing cost little and give so much more in return
Which I am sure is fine for the average day person.But the fact remains that to get the best care in the world it costs money and that best care can be found in America. Countless foreigners will come to the US to get healthcare because that is where the best specialists are. Countless cutting edge medical methods and research are created in America. Countless new drugs are first created in America. All of these things take money. If we are capping the salaries that the workers will make, or capping the profits that the companies will make they have no reason to put money into R&D to create all of the new cutting edge technology that they can.
Plain and simple yes it is a sad thing that we have Americans who can not get their healthcare. But it is also this same system that has created countless advancements in Medicine throughout the years. That would not be here if we had a social medical program that was capped in their dollars.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I guess none of that matters...
Umm how about access to lower quality healthcare doesn't make the healthcare better. I would rather have higher quality care and not necessarily have access to everyone, then lower quality care for all. That coupled with the fact that Patient Satisfaction is rated highest in the US of all countries. That does tell something. IT shows that while we need to try to improve upon the system to get access to more people, private healthcare in fact is better quality then national healthcare that these other countries have.Mhhhhh............
As far as I know we are talking about general healthcare, while you are talking about isolated cases referring to rich people that can afford the best of the treatement.
The fact is that US is cutting edge in research therefore in US you will find usually the best treatment if you can afford it.
Although, the fact that US has the best treatments doesn't make it the best healthcare system as a whole.
As someone pointed out already, if you are poor you die in US, the treatment you gonna receive is proportional to the money you are willing to spend, that doesn't make it a good health care.
In Italy the standards are high and best of all healthcare is free, therefore everyone in Italy can take advantage of a good healthcare, either you are poor or rich.
But obviously if you really can afford it and you want the best and cutting edge treatement US is still a good bet, even for foreigners.
I don't see any contraddiction in this.
And it isn't only the rich that have good healthcare. 83% of Americans have access to the world's best healthcare.
When I lived in Canada I got a really deep cut in my foot and had to get stitches. Well, it took about twice as long to heal as it should because when I want the first time the doctor forgot to sew up half of the cut. One incident doesn't prove anything, just thought I'd share.
We aren't talking about just one incident though. We are talking about a court case that went up to the supreme court and the comments of a supreme court justice. That is different then me saying well I went to the doc and this happened. She said that the system was unconstitutional. That is quite a bit stronger then just the guy needing the hip replacement saying that the service sucks.
but I was talking about my one incident. don't give me a hard time if I want to post a barely involved post in the middle of a conversation. Next you'll want me to read what everyone else posted before I chime in.
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I guess the old saying applies to Health Care as well: You get what you pay for.
piss poor management costs us alot and tinkering by whitehall is no help . but inshort the NHS has for far too long been forced into blue sky thinking and not let ppl do the nuts and bolts of health care but on the whole i have never had a problem with the NHS its a good thing cost little and give so much more in return
Which I am sure is fine for the average day person.But the fact remains that to get the best care in the world it costs money and that best care can be found in America. Countless foreigners will come to the US to get healthcare because that is where the best specialists are. Countless cutting edge medical methods and research are created in America. Countless new drugs are first created in America. All of these things take money. If we are capping the salaries that the workers will make, or capping the profits that the companies will make they have no reason to put money into R&D to create all of the new cutting edge technology that they can.
Plain and simple yes it is a sad thing that we have Americans who can not get their healthcare. But it is also this same system that has created countless advancements in Medicine throughout the years. That would not be here if we had a social medical program that was capped in their dollars.
you make a great point and i agree for the most part if you're realling interested in this subject you should do some resuch on cuba's health care you might be suprised
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In 2004, Pfizer invested $7.68 billion in research and development, the largest investment in R&D by private biomedical research organization.
Pfizer the maker of the world's most popular prescription drug (Lipitor) would not be able to invest such large amounts of money to research if the US become a cost controlled environment.
Do I think they might charge too much? Well of course, but if they are a private entity with stockholders they are required to maximize shareholder profit. That is their ethical duty as a company.
The thing is that I would rather have the inovation and extremely good care that is available in the US, instead of the mediocre care in some of these other countries.
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The American health care isn't the best. You're just too "patriotic" to see it.
So far you've provided nothing but biased and subjective sources.
We both know the "health care satisfaction" song is pure and utter bullshit. The ones who can pay will of course say they're satisfied with their health care. BTW, the WHO took satisfaction into their calculations as clearly stated here. Yet the US ranks 37th. And satisfaction ISN NOT THE SAME AS QUALITY!!!
You also refuse to acknowledge the simple fact that health care for all is a blessing for society. It's pretty simple. More people healthy = more people able to work = more people working = more money. All the countries that are more productive(link to page 83) than the US have universal health care.
That source I provided offers more insight. The US has less available beds (waiting times anyone?) and it is yet again stated that the life expectancy in the US is pretty low in the US compared to other industrialized countries.
You might give some simple reasons why the US life expectancy is this low. You'll probably give the reasons why people die.
So what? There's more old people in Germany and France. Yet they live longer. And spend less of their tax revenue on health care. EVEN WITH ALL THE OLD PEOPLE.
0-14 years: 13.9% (male 5,894,724/female 5,590,373)
15-64 years: 66.3% (male 27,811,357/female 26,790,222)
65 years and over: 19.8% (male 6,771,972/female 9,542,348) (2007 est.)
0-14 years: 18.6% (male 6,063,181/female 5,776,272)
15-64 years: 65.2% (male 20,798,889/female 20,763,283)
65 years and over: 16.2% (male 4,274,290/female 6,038,011) (2007 est.)
0-14 years: 20.2% (male 31,152,050/female 29,777,438)
15-64 years: 67.2% (male 100,995,752/female 101,365,035)
65 years and over: 12.6% (male 15,858,477/female 21,991,195) (2007 est.)
If you now try to tell me child mortality is no biggy then you're barely human. Or barely savvy economical wise.
EDIT: Prove to me it's American companies and American research which produces the most innovations. Couldn't find a source telling me one way or the other. And I'm genuinly interested.
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Well I arrived late on this topic, so most of my points have been covered (I am strongly for national healthcare). I would just like to add that national healthcare systems are not the only ones with insane waiting lists and poor service. Here in the US, many doctors are under fire for a recent increase in malpractice incidents all over the country.
Also, three years ago I developed these weird bumps on my left ankle. I went to the doctor a few days later, and he told me to see a dermatologist. There was only one in the entire city that was covered by my health insurance. I called, and they had a 9 month waiting list. In that time, the strange bumps had spread over the entirety of both of my feet and ankles, most of my left leg, and some of my right leg. When I finally got to the appointment in February, I was relieved when they told me it was just a rash and not an infection. They gave me some prescription ointment. So for nine months I went without so much as a diagnosis for what could have been an infection. If it was an infection and not a rash, I probably would have lost both my legs.
EDIT: I was watching the news the other day and I just remembered that they said the average waiting time in the ER in the US is 4 hours, and the reporter was talking about some hospitals that got the ER wait down to 30 minutes, making them among the best in the country.
Can you imagine going to the ER with, say a gunshot wound, and having to wait 30 minutes, much less FOUR HOURS?
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If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
And, if you read the graph, MOST of the countries that are worse than the US (which is like 5th or 6th, not bad) have socialized healthcare too. What an assinine, pointless example.And I suppose the EU's 8% unemployment (compared to the US's 4.5%) is because of it's "superior" healthcare?
The EU takes care of its unemployed better than the USA. So the EU does not have to be underemployed. You have a lot of underemployment in the USA in which experience and skills are not matched with the position or income of one's job.
In the EU we take care of our citizens health, and we have very good safety nets for when they are unemployed. Overall, the EU is more powerful as an economy --the Euro and pound are much, much stronger than the dollar-- and the quality of life is higher.
I know Americans are taught, almost from birth, they are number 1. But in terms of health care, education, income levels, quality of life, life expectancy, and things ... we are better.
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Well personally I think it's better to work at a job I'm overqualified for for a while than sit on my ass and get a check from the government.
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/
Americans won or had a share of winning 14 out of the prior 17 Nobel Prizes in Medicine. I think that shows American research and innovation.
Edit - I went back farther since you might of thought I stopped at a certain point to twist the actual results. Americans were involved either by being the winner or the place where the research was done or sharing in winning 24 out of the last 27 Nobel Prizes. So that is 27 years of research that American's were involved in.
edit - and only one of those years was the work all done out of this country. One of the years when an Australian and swiss won the Nobel the Australian did his work at the St Jude Children's Research hospital in Memphis, Tn USA. (that was 1996).
I could go back farther but I think you can get the point from that right there. That isn't even taken into account drug research which our country foots the bill for (in higher drug costs and government funding) and then the rest of hte world gets teh drug for cheaper.
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I went back even further for you Mad and in the last 64 years Americans were involved in 53 of the prizes. ( I stopped there because during WW2 they didn't award anyone, so I thought it would be a good stopping point).
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And to show that it isn't just medicine:
16 out of the last 20 Physics Nobel prizes were given to or shared by Americans.
18 out of the last 20 Chemistry Nobel Prizes were given to or Shared by Americans.
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Well then... If the American innovations are so amazing... Then why the hell can't they solve something as simple as a high infant mortality and a low life expectancy?
Surely with all the wonderfully ready to be applied research conducted by the Americans those problems should be easy to solve, especially considering what a strain they are on society. And they really would have an easy time doing it at a much lowercost than all those "socialist" countries, since they are bound to be less efficient with their universal health care...
Perhaps you should reread the WHO's conclusions, since they took everything into account. Including quality and satisfaction.
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Thought since I was already looking:
Americans have gotten 17 out of the last 20 Nobel Prizes in Economy as well.
Now of course we did horrible in the last two categories:
We won 4 Peace Nobel Prizes in the last 22 years.
We won 2 Literature Nobel Prizes in the Last 20 years.
Compared to our showing in other categories those two are very low.
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I am not sure of your point?
I congratulate you on Nobel Prize winnings, but I am not prepared to concede anything.
The American people are without health care and dieing as a result. And those with health care do not receive the full coverage they need and must spend more for drugs and treatment so companies can make money off of their illness. It is a pretty crazy health care system, and it is killing people and leaving millions of your citizens without coverage.
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Think of it this way. If you could only choose one of these options which would you choose?
1. Every american has access to healthcare that is provided for by tax dollars.
2. An American pharmacutical company or biotech company comes up with the a cure for the AIDS Virus.
So honestly which one would you choose?
Yes it is a horrible thing to have Medical Care by profit, but if there was no Medical Care by profit do you honestly think we would of won all of those Nobel Prizes for research done by Americans or in America?
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Now, for the finishing blow, let us look at researc hother than mostly theorethical develoments, like the ones nobel prize winners persue. Not that I want to downsize their wonderful accomplishments.
Top 10 pharma companies:
European market share: 24,5%
American market share: 19,7%
Europe has a larger health industry than the US.
You know what? Let's make it easy. Let's look at all major pharma companies.
Universal health care countries: 55,584 billion dollars.
Non-Universal Health Care country: 34,285 billion dollars.
In conclusion: Those evil socialist countries with universal health care... spend more money on Research and Develoment than the USA.
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OH wow are you really going to stoop that low? To compare the rest of the world combined to the US? That is just plain idiotic. I guess the US sucks huh they are only providing 38% of the whole world's research and development and are only what about 4% of the world's population?
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Thank you. I was always very curious about this. In spite of the USA drug companies profits selling overpriced drugs, they do not contribute as much to R&D.
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To Cabe:
I never said the US sucks. I said they should revise their health care policy.
With stating the US won more nobel prizes... Did you mean to say the rest of the world is dumb and backwards compared to the US? I'm sure you didn't.
I didn't compare the US to the rest of the world. I compared the industrialized country without universal health care to the many other ones that do have it. Not my fault that other economically large countries feel they are responsible for the wellbeing of their people and have universal health care.
You stated the US spent most on R&D (actually you only established that the US jad most nobel prize winners... but I'll humor you) and I proved you wrong.
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