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Anti-Massive Multiplayer = The Future
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Yes. Massive means there are many people co-existing on the same world, server, or pick your servey choice of wording. *Hears in the background, "Our survey says....*bing!*"*
It's some people who have turned it into another definition that includes forcing grouping with large groups.
Precisely right. Being in a world with a bunch of other people would be fine. Being forced to have to associate with large numbers of those people is the problem.
If MMORPG permitted a duo to accomplish all the content, things would be just fine. It's the mandatory "hook up with 35 degenerates" thing that will continue to exclude the vast majority from becoming paying subscribers.
So the MMORPG developers have a choice. Continue catering to the dregs of society, or expand to the realm of cable television sized success by appealing to normal people.
I've only read the thread up to the post I'm quoting just to put this in context.
But yeah, I definately know where you're coming from. I've been fighting this battle since around 2001.
I personally love being in a game world with thousands of other people. Just don't force me join any stupid clubs "guilds". If I associate with other people I want it to be because I WANT to, not because I HAVE to.
I also want to be able to log on when I want and log off when I want. I don't want to be tied to a raiding schedule. It's a friggen game for God's sake. I don't want to schedule my life around a game.
I do think that developers are ever so slowly starting to catch on to this. But dang, it's been slow progress. Largely because the "dregs" as you call them have insinuated themselves into the industry. When developers meet with fans who do they meet with? The leaders of big guilds. When they hand out beta invitations who gets invited en masse? Big guilds.
I don't know, maybe one of these days a new generation of developers will come along and realize that the vast majority of potential customers don't want LIVE the game they just want to enjoy it.
It might not be exactly what you are looking for, but have you ever tried CoX? The community is more mature than most of the other MMORPGs, and their instances scale. It is a MMORPG instead of a CORPG, but it might work for you.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
I don't think i'd ever play an Anti- Masive Multiplayer game..
Everyone keeps complaining about the people you come across and blah blah.. News flash.. For you "outgoers" and Public Affairs cats, don't you realize that ignorance and stupidty run rampant EVERYWHERE you go? Unless you live in a gated community atop a west virginian mountain, you will deal with it.. And in MMO's there is really no exception.. People are people.. And will be people till the end...
We all have opinions and can be different.. Now I know everyones gonna be like "Well im soo important that if I want to play a game ONLINE I shouldn't have to see and deal with these other people"... Another news flash.. Don't like it? Don't play it.. Its a simple concept indeed, yet some people struggle with it..
Seriously thats like these celebrities fucking having a whole MALL emptied JUST so they can shop alone without anyone around... So let me get this straight, just because you make insane amounts of money and people "worship" you as an american god you can't allow me to shop in the same mall as you?
Some of us need to get off of those high horses man.. Yes, the population of MMO's can be rather stupid and ignorant but the point of the matter is, the company does not ever sell an MMO saying "Come here and play in your own personal space!"... No..instead they invite EVERYONE to play in THEIR space..
So dont expect to come to this playground and make everyone leave because you don't want to play with them.. Go build your own playground and play in it..
I didn't take the time to read *everyone's* response to this thread, but I have to completely agree with the OP. I used to love playing a ton of different mmorpgs "back in the day" but now it just feels like the games are 99% comprised of the "Pwn Jo" crowd. Hell, even FPS' used to be fun to play back when it was just a few online up until about 2002ish.
To those who skipped reading all of this thread, you really shouldn't have, some of the OP's posts are pure gold.
And like some others pointed out, this is the most masterful trolling I've seen yet to date on these forums. His arrogant replies, categorizing all people who play MMORPG's as scum of the earth (which I guess includes all of us here, right folks?) has really incited quite a flame fest of replies.
He has a point in one regard, I'd like to see the end of large scale raiding in MMORPG's, at least from the standpoint of being required to experience the content. Keep it to a single group, make it short and simple.
Oh, but that's right, I'm not the only person they design these games for. Some of you other "cretins"
like to raid with each other. So I guess I can understand why game developers might want to include content that you want to play as well.
Now, if the game forces me to raid to be competitive in gear or abilities, I'm turned off on it completely. As long as there is alternate paths of advancement and fun I'm happy to see everyone's needs satisfied.
As for the OP, the game he wants isn't an MMORPG, and seems to fail to realize he's on the wrong forum to discuss what he wants.
But hey, look at the responses we gave him....always the goal of any good troll.
I've played many MMORPG's over the years, and I'll venture that I'm older than the OP. I've met so many great people in dozens of guilds, (and I'm basically an anti-social person) and only a small number that have really pissed me off.
We learn tolerance in the real world, and I can only imagine what a horror it must be for OP's wife (and friends if he really has any) to be around him.
Sad little man really, best to ignore really.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The OP makes perfect sense, and I tend to agree with him. Massive Multi-Player doesn't necessarily mean I want to group with 40/25/10 other gamers to accomplish any in game goals. I like the feel of the game where I can assist someone I come accross that needs a quick heal or and extra swing of a sword or shot from a laser but that doesn't mean I want to group up with them...
With the ability for people to remain anonyomous online, you usually end up with the worst in an individual rather than best in them. The sense of community is what draws me to most games and thats wearing off now that global chat systems boil down to pissing contests about non-game related topics. I usually end up turning the chat channels off after a time since I get tired ot the teen aged testosterone that gets flung back and forth.
So the Developer who makes a game that is scaleable down to an individual effort and is still entertaining is going to realise a larger player base in my opinion. That is what I got from the OP's original post and hes right on the mark with it.
So I read the majority of post in this thread... had to stop mid-way and take a few (bottles) of aspirin and also find a towel to wipe up all the blood pouring from my eyes...
The way I see it, it's all about choice. Modern MMOs since World of Warcraft have given us small-team oriented content and large raid oriented content.
Do we expect the gear/loot from an instance that requires the focus/talent of 5 people to yield the same reward as content that requires 10-40 people? No. It's just not possible.
For those who wish to pursue the added challenge that comes from a raid vs. group sized encounter, they deserve added reward. It's plain and simple.
More people = more challenge = better reward.
Just the organizational challenges, communication demands, and team-coordination qualify the larger raid encounters to give better rewards then the smaller, more lazze faire dungeon setting.
Don't want to put up with that level of virtual socialization? Your choice, but you are also choosing to limit your selection of content and loot/gear.
To the OP directly, the way I see it, it's like this:
You have a circle of friends/family that you enjoy playing with/interacting with. Excellent, most of us do.
You also have an entire web of people you interact with on a daily basis; bank tellers, restaraunt employees, co-workers, etc. that you don't qualify as being part of your "circle" but yet still play an important role in your life.
Sometimes, those in the circle can piss you off, and sometimes (hell often times) people in your extra-relational web tend to piss you off.
You have to deal with that, count on the comfort and support of your circle, and do your best to minimize the negative impact on you by people in the web by trying to understand that they too have their own unique strengths and weaknesses.
It's the same in MMORPGs. Even in a large raid you end up with a close knit circle of friends and the other raid members are just part of the web. Yes, sometimes the members of this web can really piss you off, act immaturely, do/say something stupid etc. but you have to count on your close knit circle to help you through it, to lead. But you still need those members of the web in order to accomplish your goals.
Closing yourself off from these people and sticking to your circle only creates "cliques" within guilds, drama, and eventually a guild break-up and/or lack of content progression.
No one asks you to like every single one of the 39 other people in your raid. As long as you have a few close friends, it's pretty easy to get by and have a good time.
Who knows, you may even meet new friends and expand your inner circle.
Point is...
If you're a dick to everyone that isn't already part of your "crew" then you are NOT going to go far in a MMORPG, and you are not playing the right genre of games. Large raid content is a test of patience and social restrait just as much as it is a test of player skill and game knowledge.
If you can't "handle" that then you need to accept that you simply won't have access to that portion of the content and that advanced level of gear/loot.
Fact.
Total non sense.
People that plays WoW ain't less geeks than those who played eq1 +100 people raid.
Both put the same amount of time in the game, the idea that WoW is more casual is just a myth.
WoW end-game ain't too much different from eq1 except for the size of the raid, yet 10 million people play it.
So, no, the age of geeks ain't ended, it just begun, they are just called differently.
Multiplayeer always existed, what s the big deal?
Wanna play with your "kool" friends? Buy any game you like and you can do so, what's this "anti-mmo" bullshit?
MMO has just begun.
Look man, RL is full of retards and losers. If you can live with them, then you can live with retards and losers in MMOs.
Simple solution: Make a game that 1 part MMORPG and 1 part offline single player game.
Classic Everquest style MMORPG with a instanced single player campaign that spans the level ranges. All gear obtain would be top solo gear, middle of the road group gear and poor raid gear. You can hope in and out of the instance any time to play in group areas.
A vast majority of people prefer to mess around with a fairly small number of people say no more than 10 or so.
This is essentially the monkey sphere phenomenon:
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html
This is why things like raiding are actually crap for an MMORPG. However the OPs premise is not correct, either. Just because we all have a monkey sphere does not mean large endeavors involving many people are going to go the way of the dodo.
Instead what will need to happen is more MMOs will need to learn the lessons of EvE and have large corporations/guilds perform activities that makes sense for such a large organization. And smaller organizations do things appropriate for their size as well. Just like the real world.
To the OP: Have you looked into DDO? You can put yourself on anonymous so that you don't get offers to join other parties and just group with your friends. I guess they'd have to be friends that you've brought with you since you don't seem to want to interact with anyone else in the game. I hear ya with the inane names and obscene chat; fortunately, most games let you turn them both off. I've personally been playing DDO solo since the RL friends that joined with me quit, so it is very possible to do so. There are Raids and now raid crafting in DDO, but I'm not sure of the requirements to enter the raid-zones - it may be as low as 6 people.
To the other posters: I hope I haven't pissed any of you off by suggesting your favorite MMO to someone as rude as the OP. My guess is that if he isn't just trolling and is actually looking for a game, his joining wouldn't affect anyone else since he won't interact with anyone other than his friends.
<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
OK I read the first 5 pages and finally got tired of the back and forths between OP and people. Basically from what I can gather from the OP: You want the next step in MMO's which is small group content (2-3 people?), micro-raids, and feel the 100+ raiding of old was a bit like a geek orgy. I personally enjoyed my geek orgies. Anyways your english is fine, just the structure of the post seemed confusing? I don't know, I could figure out what you meant.
Anyways, I would have to agree that there are a lot of games already out there like this. NO they are not all MMORPGs, but on the same level in my opinion. Games like Dungeon Siege, Dungeon Siege II, Diablo, Diablo II, Mythos (in closed Beta atm?), Neverwinter Nights, Guild Wars, etc. Actually there are also a ton of F2P games which can easily be played with 1-2 others without dealing with... well... anyone (they probably don't speak english anyways ;p)
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Further having more people is often completely inappropriate to task.
The problem with MMOs is that they treat it as if 5 people and 70 people can both accomplish the same thing in a similar manner.
Games like EQ1 did this because they are poorly designed and overly simplistic.
You don't have 70 people go make the coffee. That would be completely stupid. And that is what MMORPGs devs have been giving you. Except EvE.
Why do you think large corporations in EvE that hold territory actually have positions and organizations that make sense for game related things rather than pure personal positions?
Offices like Home security, Fleet command, Resource command, aqusition officier, trade officer, diplomat. Eve has this because they didn't tell 70 people to "go make coffee". They gave the large corporation a hugely complex task that requires a real DIVISION OF LABOR.
Not some dumb errand with class "officers" so that a bunch of mouth breathers can delude themselves into believing they have done some kind of challenge by surmounting the natural pain in the ass of herding cats.
MMORPGs are games. Making coffee is not a game. It's totally serial.
Besides kissing the virtual EVE rear, I'm sorry but your post did nothing.
In a MMORPG PvE raid, more people does in fact = more challenge.
Why? The devs make it this way. You really just can't throw 25-40 random people at a raid and expect them to complete it. It takes coordination, communication, and organization. Beyond that, there is an element of both skill and gear. Gear weighing more heavily then skill I'm afraid, at least in modern MMORPGs.
Point is, a 5-person dungeon you can in fact throw together 5 random people and have success.
WoW has forever redefined what dungeon/raid group PvE gaming is. Their model is here to stay.
Could I grab 4 of my friends and mow through a 5-person dungeon half asleep? Yes, I have. 9 of my friends for a 10-person raid? Well, I can't do it half asleep but it's not too hard for a serious gamer in a serious guild to pull together 10 people for a few hours.
25 people? 40 people? Day in day out? It's a challenge.
Besides, I'd rather have a GAME where I get to group up and kill stuff for fun then a software title with "division of labor" where my job was "resource command." Yikes. Sounds like a JOB to me, not a game play activity, and I've already got a job.
The OP's original post obviously went off on the wrong course. I understand what you are saying but I had to go back and dig and read through it again.
You made different points that had nothing to do with your initial argument, it was all very confusing. I speak perfect English and im doing quite well in college as im sure alot of other people here are too.
So before you go bashing everyone within a mile for "Not quite getting it the first time around" why dont you bugger down and have yourself a nice cheese sandwhich, while YOU watch "Lost" with your wife who im sure is imaginary at this point and kids...
Who take after their mother in that respect as being imaginary.
Im sorry but i Honestly cannot believe a man of your supposed age would be acting as such to other people,
-Jive
Also Mythos. You might even like DDO.
I think LOTRO is adding more raids, but I've been away from that MMO for about 6 months.
24+ people raids are here to stay.
So essentially from what I've gathered as an English major is that the OP is pissed because he has to interact with other people in online, multiplayer games and - surprise! he doesn't like everybody he meets! One of the principles of human relations is that it's impossible to like everybody you meet. Does that mean you should log onto a forum and bitch about it? No.
As for 'scum of society', in this context I believe the OP proves his own point. There are few things worse than those who can go on the internet and suddenly be a much greater person than the people who play the exact same game as them more often simply because they like it enough and have enough free time rather than playing with their "wife"(usually on a ranting forum read as hand or online chat rooms) or doing other things they would find less enjoyable.
oh oh can I play??
Ok, before I do though... I havent read all this thread, but I ran out of steam by page 8 and my GF is starting to get annoyed at me sitting here, so I will just say what I am gonna say and get off if thats ok.
The whole point is that he would like MMO if they wouldn't be soo twisted.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
They OP has made it crystal clear why no WoW guild would have him.
Oh please. I guess I've stumbled into the reason that we only have 25 man raid geek-meets-geek games.
Hey game developers, you see the issue here? How will you ever mainstream your games when so many of your current subscribers don't even comprehend written English?
Those of us who do, which equals the vast majority of people with lots of money to spend on multiple monthly subscriptions (we're probably already paying for the games of the likes of these dorks) would really love a game we could play with other adults.
A game with the richness of Oblivion, that didn't force us to hang out with moronic losers who can't even comprehend written English in order to experience all the content.
The game house that makes that game gets rich.
No Echobe is right, you make absolutely no sense in your previous posts. Just because it's English, doesn't mean it makes sense. For example: "Put the horse into the bucket, and chew the oily cat." is written in English, even in proper grammar and sentence structure, but does it make sense? No. And neither did you.This is what I got from the OP: I don't like "l33t" gamers with stupid names, and I'm playing MMORPGs but I don't want to deal with other people...make a scaleable game (horrid idea btw) that revolves around 2-4 players, and call it an MMORPG (um, what?). That way I don't have to deal with other people while playing online. I like my private servers.
Did I get it right? If so, then please stop playing MMORPGs, since you obviously don't like other players, go get an XBox360 and play online with your friends. Or my personal favorite idea, go buy an xbox360 and bash yourself over the head with it until brain matter comes out. You might have to do it a while, because there's probably no brain in your head.
Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa
Gaming History: EQ, EQ2, SWG, EVE, Anarchy Online, CoX, GW, SRO, Rakion, Ryzom, WoW, Rappelz, Shadowbane, 9Dragons, DAoC, Dungeon Runners, DnD Online, Space Cowboy, LotRO, Vanguard, Fury, Hellgate
Wanting to Play: WAR, TCoS, Darkfall, Aion
You guys that are harsh with the OP. The reason you are that harsh, is that you know he is right.
Peoples are SIMPLE (not stupid). Peoples like simple things. A game which will caters to soloers/small groups will beat any game which doesn't, anyday.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You arnt serious here right?
He is so badly wrong it is stupid. He isnt asking for smaller grouping games or smaller raids, he is asking for private servers and P2P set ups... This just isnt the definition of a MMORPG, so people are telling him to go play games that are designed to do just this. What makes the OP right here? Please explain?
Also his arrogant arsehol atttitude isnt helping.
I wont even go into why soloers are killing this genre.
Ahh c'mon Anofayle...You arnt serious here right?
He is so badly wrong it is stupid. He isnt asking for smaller grouping games or smaller raids, he is asking for private servers and P2P set ups... This just isnt the definition of a MMORPG, so people are telling him to go play games that are designed to do just this. What makes the OP right here? Please explain?
Also his arrogant arsehol atttitude isnt helping.
I wont even go into why soloers are killing this genre.
Soloers are providing extra options. So no matter what you are doing, the more soloers on the server, the better. Best soloers should be soloers (you want them to be motivated about the game), and if the devs are not willing to do that, then their game will just run out of soloers, and die of attrition eventually.
See, you plainly insult him. Proving he is right. There are no need to insults anyone, when you are right.
Why is WoW raping the competitors? Oh, it is better than MOST mmos for soloers and groupers. The next step is just to beat WoW from a solo/grouping point of view, either by removing raiding completely, or by making sure no reward granted in raiding affect solo/grouping. EQ was successfull because peoples where thinking that solo/grouping was an option, when PoK happens, they see that the only option was raiding, and they quit. As simple as that. EQ has more raiders then ever at many moment...but wait...it is dying and was dying at most moments where raiders are in a bigger %...why so? Oh, the soloers/groupers mostly all left!
WoW will die when soloers/groupers leave. The soloers/groupers will leave when they "understand" they have to raid and that they don't enjoy that. Quite simple really. I am amused at how slowly these new soloers/groupers realize that they have to raid, and then just quit the game. But give them time, eventually they will understand, like EQ, it is long...
Now now...let's me guess, you will start insulting me as in the past, tell me to go play whatever else, and you will be outraged because I am right? Pretty much sums each and every argument we ever had.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren