ROFL, yeah its easy to say Permadeath could work when you arn't explain the rest of the game like item hunting and level grinding. Can't believe people honestly think permadeath would actually work especially in a game that has PvP. Especially when you don't take in to account groups roving the countryside killing everybody they see.
Oh, I think it could work for one server in most games, where you're able to simply play an alt or two under those rules...but play the standard way as well.
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
I disagree with everything you typed.
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
I disagree with everything you typed.
I don't care?
Frankly, I think basing an argument for or against permadeath play based on the population of WoW is a little ridiculous. That clearly wouldn't be the market for a game like that...but there's more than enough marketplace left after WoW's numbers for niche games that do things entirely differently.
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
No thanks...
So you've never tried it.... You're not willing to try it...
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
No thanks...
So you've never tried it.... You're not willing to try it...
Why is your opinion important again...?
My opinion is not important because I don't want to waste my time doing something incredibly stupid? Lol, ok.
Sadly, it's these kinds of people that make decent developers turn their critical thinking off and give what they want: a big red button that when pushed gives them candy, pretty light shows, and cool sounds. They're not into really thinking thus developers of games stop developing games and start producing ponzi schemes aka MMOs. -- Brede
A Permadeath MMO will not sell. Analyze it all you want. It just won't.
Just knowing I could be killed by another player has been enough for me. I bet 90% of these people saying a perma death MMO would work wouldn't play anymore after thier character was killed.
If you are the guy running with the huge guild yeah it might be fun.
My opinion is not important because I don't want to waste my time doing something incredibly stupid? Lol, ok.
Well...technically....its akin to you suggesting that apples taste like crap when you've never eaten one. Would seem rather hard to be able to actually have an opinion about something you've not actually tried. Do you even have something you HAVE tried or experienced that you could compare the experience to? That would at least justify the closed-mindedness you are showing for this.
He made a good point, just make an alt on a game and try it. Pick a class you hate if you don't want to actually get attached to it. For me that would be....a Warrior on WoW I think. No ideal why, just hate em. Its not like it actually costs you anything to attempt it...heck, chances are that, if its a class you hate, you'll die your first time soon enough anyway.
To Diz:
I think its entirely possible to make a marketable permadeath. Though, the best "market" actually isn't nessecarily "perma". The pure D&D model would be nice...where death IS death, but people can go on quests and such to find ways to ressurect you. I don't mean to say "find a healer"...rezzing under some rulesets is actually quite involved. Sometimes it requires a Wish spell to be used, among other things...like divine intervention. Could be drawn out well, and make for some interesting content.
Mostly, its not about a permadeath game anyway. Its about having those rulesets on some servers for kicks. Trying to mass market ANY niche is bad planning. You mass market pop accepted things, while allowing for niches as well. After all...thats the reason we have RP servers on so many games. Its not like there are really that many RP'ers out there. At least...not on such a wide level.
Most people for permadeath use this arguement- "There would have to be very little actual progression so when you die, there isn't a huge loss, and you can return quickly." The thing about this that makes these people sound foolish is... That removes the reason why people want permadeath in the first place. If you could get to 99 in D2 in a day, would it really be that dramatic of a difference to lose a hardcore character?
What makes PD interesting is the fact that people try to achieve as much as they can within that characters alloted lifespan. I got to level 60... This time i got to level 70! whoops only 30 this time. Things like this is what makes permadeath appealing.
So what is the point of the game if progression is too quick? Sure you will increase the subscriber base compared to a lose your wow char style game. But it still will turn off players.
What would be the point of the game in a fast progression game? PvP? no, people won't pvp because they won't want to die. PvE? Nobody would risk that much and PvE would be made to be relatively easy, or the harder content vastly underused. It would turn down to a socialization/crafting mmorpg, and to my knowledge there hasn't been one of these that has ever been made and been successful. Craft your house, your guild base, equipment. But what then, what if you die? If ANY of this carries over to a new char, this is no longer permadeath, but rather a skill loss system. A simple name change isn't what people want from PD.
But with slow progression, it has to be a side feature, rather than the main one. As it is in D2 HG Mythos etc. A option, but the other modes being more popular. And then it's no longer a PD game anymore.
2. Socialization
Exactly how this would be in a PD game is totally unpredictable. If it's slow, you'd see guilds pop up, and static groups. But then you'd have everyone communicate over various chars with people you knew, and out of game communication. It becomes a rerolling guild with peoples alts coming in and out as they die off. Is this fine? Yeah sure, but is it what a guild should be? I don't know, what should a guild be?
In a fast progression system, i could see guilds being more of a hey you guys do this stuff, i'm going to go with you to do em. Actions rather than bonding. But again, would this be what a guild should be?
3. PvP
If it was a open pvp system, people would actually avoid socialization with other people to a massive extreme. Who's to say that mr X doesn't feel like quitting, or had a bad day. And will ruin XX players days. Or who's say that Mr. X simply isn't a jerk. And it'll come down to a saying "Why take the risk"
A realm based pvp system would only work in a fast progression system, and even then it'd be pretty dry.
So a death dueling system would probably be the only option for the length of the game.
4. Setting & Purpose
Here's where we can get into "Buts"
This would not work in medieval/fantasy
This would not work in space games(eve goes for the gay way out with clones etc).
This would only work in either present day games, or in apocalyptic games. Why is that? Because the focus on the game would have to be on surviving. That's right. The point of the game has to be you surviving.
5. Surviving?
Yes, the point of a permadeath game would be to survive the longest and to achieve what you can. Why not a medieval or space game? Because the point of surviving would be wasted on players, and not successful, we aren't talking about niche games here, we can make a niche game for dinosaurs bouncing on pillows, and some people would play it. That's beyond the point.
In eve, if when your ship exploded, that was the end, you'd have to reskill a new character, re earn money, start from nothing. Would it be as successful as it is now?
In fantasy games, yes there has been some examples of PD in d2 etc. But all of these games are not mmorpgs, and not even close to being what a mmorpg is. You could say mythos and hellgate, but again, these are single player games, plain and simple, you can go online with em. But that changes nothing.
Then you can say the DDO permadeath guilds. Yes these are interesting. But Are the majority of DDO guilds pd? I'd bet cash that they are the vast minority. And in D2(and the genre) i'd say that neither of them would have reached their success(what little there is to be had with some) if PD was the only option.
But what's the difference between surviving and what we do now? A lot.
For example a Zombie game. This is the perfect place for perma death. Add on food being required, clean water. Make it so you have to go through danger to get it. And you got a golden pd game. This is where PD shines. In a genre that actually DOESN'T EXIST at the moment. Sure theres horror games which some people call "survival games" but they aren't even close to this.
In a world with limited resources, how long can you survive? Apocalypse style could involve building communities. And present day, could be surviving disasters(such as natural disasters over the entire world).
Games where your characters life is held in the balance of yourself and other players. This is where permadeath shines.
If your looking for a mmo with pd, and it'd be just a normal mmo? don't get your hopes up. It'll either be a option, or non existant. And nobody would like it either way.
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
Perma death is perfectly fine.. Quests can be associated with Perma death that give very good rewards for example..
Going on the quest to get the "bad ass sword of owning you like the monkey that you are" would have serious consequences if you don't complete it.. - you die forever...
of course no one is forced to go on perma death based quests.. but the ones that do and succeed are paid off with awesome stuff
The OP is pissed because some players have chosen to up their game by deleting their characters once they get killed. There's no built-in game feature for this and no one is forced to play this way. Sure, it would be nice if there was a permadeath server or even just a way to flag your character for permadeath, but no one is saying that you should be forced to play this way. Permadeath is just a way that some veteran players add a dimension to their favorite game.
The appropriate response to the OP is: "It's none of your damn business how Iplay mycharacters so piss off!"
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
As long as it player assignable, who cares?
A little tick box for permadeath in the charcter creation window. Great.
I enjoyed Diablo in Hardcore mode. I prefer my FPS without respawns.
I can't say that I am mental for a RPG with only permadeath. But it might be a laugh as an additional feature for added replayability.
The problem with perma death in the current concept of MMOs is the fact that in order to be effective in playing, you have to spend an inordinate amount of time (even in WoW, the time spent to being competitive in the 'end game' is more than people want to lose).
What you need is a model like Torg/Master Book or White Wolf's System and you are set. Where a rookie toon can be effective off of the creation line.
Throw in a generational system where the materials of the previous character are 'passed down' to the new character and you have the potential for a system that could be fun with a permadeath situation.
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
No thanks...
So you've never tried it.... You're not willing to try it...
Why is your opinion important again...?
My opinion is not important because I don't want to waste my time doing something incredibly stupid? Lol, ok.
The point of a discussion like this one you started is for everyone to be interested in learning different viewpoints. Not only are you not interested with all the not interested responces.but in the end you seem to have done what you could to keep this topic from progressing beyond the starting point. So i ask you why continue posting here in this topic if your not interested in learning others opinions or even giving people a fare listen too?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
It would work if the whole design of the game was based around it. It would suck if they just slapped it onto wow.
Playing: Xsyon. Played: Tried: Ultima Online, Everquest 2, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Flyff, Perfect World, Silkroad Online, EVE Online, Ryzom.
It would work if the whole design of the game was based around it. It would suck if they just slapped it onto wow.
Again though, permadeath is a specific niche that appeals to a small group of players...I would daresay, you'd find very few of those players in WoW, although I think you could still find more than enough to support servers at least, an entire game at most, from other games.
p.s. I'm of the firm belief that the future success of MMO companies with games going into development depends on niche games, not only building them but maintaining realistic expectations for them.
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
I don't know about ya'll, but I play MMOs for fun.
I wouldn't find it fun to have to re-do months (or years) of content because I made one small mistake that got my character killed.
In any game that is progression based, where you do something, complete that something, then move on to something else (i.e. 99% of games) you can't have perma-death. Most people get very, very tired of repeating the same content over and over and over.
In the glory days of the Arcade, you had permadeath. You got as far as you could on your quarter then when you got the game over, that was it. You'd have to start back at the beginning.
Then they added the "Continue?" option, put another quarter in, keep playing from where you left off!
And you know what happened? People started playing a lot more, and they started paying a lot more.
The removal of perma-death happened decades ago, and it's never coming back in a marketable product.
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
No thanks...
Honestly, what do you have to lose, time?
Exactly. Time is the most precious commodity. 8 hours lost in a MMO can be used to FINISH a FPS.
I don't know about ya'll, but I play MMOs for fun. I wouldn't find it fun to have to re-do months (or years) of content because I made one small mistake that got my character killed. In any game that is progression based, where you do something, complete that something, then move on to something else (i.e. 99% of games) you can't have perma-death. Most people get very, very tired of repeating the same content over and over and over. In the glory days of the Arcade, you had permadeath. You got as far as you could on your quarter then when you got the game over, that was it. You'd have to start back at the beginning. Then they added the "Continue?" option, put another quarter in, keep playing from where you left off! And you know what happened? People started playing a lot more, and they started paying a lot more. The removal of perma-death happened decades ago, and it's never coming back in a marketable product.
- 1 lives per month server with no other death penalty*, also a good idea.
- 1 FFA PvP server, also a good idea.
- 1 PvE-grouping server (all loot placed on 1 merchant for now, later more adjustements if popular enought), also a good idea.
- 1 casual server (can't play more than 3 hours per week) where everything is earned FAST (log in, your level 20...gain 1 level per kill up to 40...then still fast, should be hard to be max level in 3 weeks, but not impossible (9 hours LOL)), also a good idea.
- Many other specific servers with their own systems...
See, the keys point here are: AT LAUNCH, AS MANY DIFFERENTS SETTING AS POSSIBLE (even if not working, advertise as such and then a note say that it is not working as intended for now, patching will solve it eventually) Specific servers = players choices = programmers working instead of designers = "democracy justifications"
See, PvE variations should be the most common, not the least. Most peoples play in PvE. Give players the choices. When new expansions are launched, try a few twists of existing setting...or new stuff althogeter.
Giving the choices to the players and then supporting these is what matters, maybe show the population on servers setting that are about to be squashed into oblivion if not more successfull...instead of light load, put a 214 players online and give a warning ahead of time that at this current course, this server would be closed in a month...or whatever...and if there is a character transfer option to some server, or not (obviously, a character on the casual server cannot be transferred anywhere short of the test server); also say how many players online would be required to keep it open, on average and at peaks, total hours played...whatever...give info ahead of time.
*: Would need to explain the death system in great lenght...can check my blog if you really want some info.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Narian89</i> <br><b><p>Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!</p></b></blockquote> <br>
I'll allow myself to bite... lol....
First of all, WoW has no death. Death is too meaningless. Many players travel faster by dying on ... purpose!
1. Perma-death discussions are nothing new here at mmorpg.com Many new mmorpg players are discovering this site, so the topic of perma-death seems new to them. I'm not going to re-hash the details of all 3 sides of the arguement. But I will say this - which is something few people on all sides of the issue know about.....
2. Perma-death WORKS. It has been PROVEN. There is a market for it. There are 2 online games that have perma-death:
- Diablo 2 (yes ... made by your favorite company that also made WoW). D2 has been around for a solid 4+ years. In D2 perma-death, you die... you D-I-E. And you lose every single itsy, bitsy, thing! Perma-death is one of the things hat has kept D2 ultra popular even now.
- Strive For Power. A very unique mmorpg with many unique ideas. It's been around for a soild 3+ years. You die, well, there's some intresting things to death. It's the only mmorpg in which players can be 1-8 characters., at the SAME TIME. (I have not played in a while... I think 8 characters is the max.). You can litterally form your own group. This gets rid of teh the LFG problems that all other mmorpgs have. When each character in your party dies - that's it. They are D-E-A-D. So if you form a party of 4 characters, and 2 die in battle, they are forever dead. But technically you are still alive... since you can still continue on with your 2 surviving characters.
And to you mods here at mmorpg.com you have Race War Kingdoms listed on some parts of this site as meeting the definition of a mmorpg. Yet still, Strive For Power is not listed on mmorpg.com even though it's as much of a mmorpg as RWK.
3. These two online games have PROVEN perma-death works, and that there IS a market for permadeath. How come there are not more perma-death mmorpgs, or at least perma-death servers? Because sadly the moneymen run mmorpgs more than the programmers, and gamers. Moneymen dislike taking what they see as risks. Perfection to them is making clones, and more clones.
Comments
Oh, I think it could work for one server in most games, where you're able to simply play an alt or two under those rules...but play the standard way as well.
I disagree with everything you typed.
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
I disagree with everything you typed.
I don't care?
I disagree with everything you typed.
I don't care?
Frankly, I think basing an argument for or against permadeath play based on the population of WoW is a little ridiculous. That clearly wouldn't be the market for a game like that...but there's more than enough marketplace left after WoW's numbers for niche games that do things entirely differently.Thank god.
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
No thanks...
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
No thanks...
So you've never tried it.... You're not willing to try it...
Why is your opinion important again...?
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
No thanks...
So you've never tried it.... You're not willing to try it...
Why is your opinion important again...?
My opinion is not important because I don't want to waste my time doing something incredibly stupid? Lol, ok.
A Permadeath MMO will not sell. Analyze it all you want. It just won't.
Just knowing I could be killed by another player has been enough for me. I bet 90% of these people saying a perma death MMO would work wouldn't play anymore after thier character was killed.
If you are the guy running with the huge guild yeah it might be fun.
Well...technically....its akin to you suggesting that apples taste like crap when you've never eaten one. Would seem rather hard to be able to actually have an opinion about something you've not actually tried. Do you even have something you HAVE tried or experienced that you could compare the experience to? That would at least justify the closed-mindedness you are showing for this.
He made a good point, just make an alt on a game and try it. Pick a class you hate if you don't want to actually get attached to it. For me that would be....a Warrior on WoW I think. No ideal why, just hate em. Its not like it actually costs you anything to attempt it...heck, chances are that, if its a class you hate, you'll die your first time soon enough anyway.
To Diz:
I think its entirely possible to make a marketable permadeath. Though, the best "market" actually isn't nessecarily "perma". The pure D&D model would be nice...where death IS death, but people can go on quests and such to find ways to ressurect you. I don't mean to say "find a healer"...rezzing under some rulesets is actually quite involved. Sometimes it requires a Wish spell to be used, among other things...like divine intervention. Could be drawn out well, and make for some interesting content.
Mostly, its not about a permadeath game anyway. Its about having those rulesets on some servers for kicks. Trying to mass market ANY niche is bad planning. You mass market pop accepted things, while allowing for niches as well. After all...thats the reason we have RP servers on so many games. Its not like there are really that many RP'ers out there. At least...not on such a wide level.
My thoughts on this subject.
1. Progression
Most people for permadeath use this arguement- "There would have to be very little actual progression so when you die, there isn't a huge loss, and you can return quickly." The thing about this that makes these people sound foolish is... That removes the reason why people want permadeath in the first place. If you could get to 99 in D2 in a day, would it really be that dramatic of a difference to lose a hardcore character?
What makes PD interesting is the fact that people try to achieve as much as they can within that characters alloted lifespan. I got to level 60... This time i got to level 70! whoops only 30 this time. Things like this is what makes permadeath appealing.
So what is the point of the game if progression is too quick? Sure you will increase the subscriber base compared to a lose your wow char style game. But it still will turn off players.
What would be the point of the game in a fast progression game? PvP? no, people won't pvp because they won't want to die. PvE? Nobody would risk that much and PvE would be made to be relatively easy, or the harder content vastly underused. It would turn down to a socialization/crafting mmorpg, and to my knowledge there hasn't been one of these that has ever been made and been successful. Craft your house, your guild base, equipment. But what then, what if you die? If ANY of this carries over to a new char, this is no longer permadeath, but rather a skill loss system. A simple name change isn't what people want from PD.
But with slow progression, it has to be a side feature, rather than the main one. As it is in D2 HG Mythos etc. A option, but the other modes being more popular. And then it's no longer a PD game anymore.
2. Socialization
Exactly how this would be in a PD game is totally unpredictable. If it's slow, you'd see guilds pop up, and static groups. But then you'd have everyone communicate over various chars with people you knew, and out of game communication. It becomes a rerolling guild with peoples alts coming in and out as they die off. Is this fine? Yeah sure, but is it what a guild should be? I don't know, what should a guild be?
In a fast progression system, i could see guilds being more of a hey you guys do this stuff, i'm going to go with you to do em. Actions rather than bonding. But again, would this be what a guild should be?
3. PvP
If it was a open pvp system, people would actually avoid socialization with other people to a massive extreme. Who's to say that mr X doesn't feel like quitting, or had a bad day. And will ruin XX players days. Or who's say that Mr. X simply isn't a jerk. And it'll come down to a saying "Why take the risk"
A realm based pvp system would only work in a fast progression system, and even then it'd be pretty dry.
So a death dueling system would probably be the only option for the length of the game.
4. Setting & Purpose
Here's where we can get into "Buts"
This would not work in medieval/fantasy
This would not work in space games(eve goes for the gay way out with clones etc).
This would only work in either present day games, or in apocalyptic games. Why is that? Because the focus on the game would have to be on surviving. That's right. The point of the game has to be you surviving.
5. Surviving?
Yes, the point of a permadeath game would be to survive the longest and to achieve what you can. Why not a medieval or space game? Because the point of surviving would be wasted on players, and not successful, we aren't talking about niche games here, we can make a niche game for dinosaurs bouncing on pillows, and some people would play it. That's beyond the point.
In eve, if when your ship exploded, that was the end, you'd have to reskill a new character, re earn money, start from nothing. Would it be as successful as it is now?
In fantasy games, yes there has been some examples of PD in d2 etc. But all of these games are not mmorpgs, and not even close to being what a mmorpg is. You could say mythos and hellgate, but again, these are single player games, plain and simple, you can go online with em. But that changes nothing.
Then you can say the DDO permadeath guilds. Yes these are interesting. But Are the majority of DDO guilds pd? I'd bet cash that they are the vast minority. And in D2(and the genre) i'd say that neither of them would have reached their success(what little there is to be had with some) if PD was the only option.
But what's the difference between surviving and what we do now? A lot.
For example a Zombie game. This is the perfect place for perma death. Add on food being required, clean water. Make it so you have to go through danger to get it. And you got a golden pd game. This is where PD shines. In a genre that actually DOESN'T EXIST at the moment. Sure theres horror games which some people call "survival games" but they aren't even close to this.
In a world with limited resources, how long can you survive? Apocalypse style could involve building communities. And present day, could be surviving disasters(such as natural disasters over the entire world).
Games where your characters life is held in the balance of yourself and other players. This is where permadeath shines.
If your looking for a mmo with pd, and it'd be just a normal mmo? don't get your hopes up. It'll either be a option, or non existant. And nobody would like it either way.
Perma death is perfectly fine.. Quests can be associated with Perma death that give very good rewards for example..
Going on the quest to get the "bad ass sword of owning you like the monkey that you are" would have serious consequences if you don't complete it.. - you die forever...
of course no one is forced to go on perma death based quests.. but the ones that do and succeed are paid off with awesome stuff
Why is everyone talking about a permadeath game?
The OP is pissed because some players have chosen to up their game by deleting their characters once they get killed. There's no built-in game feature for this and no one is forced to play this way. Sure, it would be nice if there was a permadeath server or even just a way to flag your character for permadeath, but no one is saying that you should be forced to play this way. Permadeath is just a way that some veteran players add a dimension to their favorite game.
The appropriate response to the OP is: "It's none of your damn business how I play my characters so piss off!"
Simple no?
A little tick box for permadeath in the charcter creation window. Great.
I enjoyed Diablo in Hardcore mode. I prefer my FPS without respawns.
I can't say that I am mental for a RPG with only permadeath. But it might be a laugh as an additional feature for added replayability.
The problem with perma death in the current concept of MMOs is the fact that in order to be effective in playing, you have to spend an inordinate amount of time (even in WoW, the time spent to being competitive in the 'end game' is more than people want to lose).
What you need is a model like Torg/Master Book or White Wolf's System and you are set. Where a rookie toon can be effective off of the creation line.
Throw in a generational system where the materials of the previous character are 'passed down' to the new character and you have the potential for a system that could be fun with a permadeath situation.
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
No thanks...
So you've never tried it.... You're not willing to try it...
Why is your opinion important again...?
My opinion is not important because I don't want to waste my time doing something incredibly stupid? Lol, ok.
The point of a discussion like this one you started is for everyone to be interested in learning different viewpoints. Not only are you not interested with all the not interested responces.but in the end you seem to have done what you could to keep this topic from progressing beyond the starting point. So i ask you why continue posting here in this topic if your not interested in learning others opinions or even giving people a fare listen too?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
It would work if the whole design of the game was based around it. It would suck if they just slapped it onto wow.
Playing: Xsyon.
Played:
Tried: Ultima Online, Everquest 2, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Flyff, Perfect World, Silkroad Online, EVE Online, Ryzom.
Again though, permadeath is a specific niche that appeals to a small group of players...I would daresay, you'd find very few of those players in WoW, although I think you could still find more than enough to support servers at least, an entire game at most, from other games.
p.s. I'm of the firm belief that the future success of MMO companies with games going into development depends on niche games, not only building them but maintaining realistic expectations for them.
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
No thanks...
Honestly, what do you have to lose, time?
I don't know about ya'll, but I play MMOs for fun.
I wouldn't find it fun to have to re-do months (or years) of content because I made one small mistake that got my character killed.
In any game that is progression based, where you do something, complete that something, then move on to something else (i.e. 99% of games) you can't have perma-death. Most people get very, very tired of repeating the same content over and over and over.
In the glory days of the Arcade, you had permadeath. You got as far as you could on your quarter then when you got the game over, that was it. You'd have to start back at the beginning.
Then they added the "Continue?" option, put another quarter in, keep playing from where you left off!
And you know what happened? People started playing a lot more, and they started paying a lot more.
The removal of perma-death happened decades ago, and it's never coming back in a marketable product.
WOW with permadeath? that would be cool the game actually might get some substance if it put up a permadeath server, I might even get interested to play if it had permadeath in it, I would have no problem having my 45 or 70th level character die, just go back to the character creator and make a new one, not that hard.
Ahh.. The old days;
I also remember when we use to play RPG's on the table top, two to three hours rolling up a character, play the character thru several adventures for a couple of years,( real years) and if it suffers from permadeath, well to bad, re-roll and start a new one. bit hard to pretend it didn't happen, the DM was usually sitting across the table from you.
Permadeath is not a that big a nasty, in fact it can be a lot of fun.
A challenge for you Narian89, by the way you talk about permadeath, by the way you fear it, I challenge you to choose your favorite mmorpg, start a new character and play it as if it had permadeath on it, play it for as high as you can, you can try as many times as you like, but if the character dies in game then it suffer permadeath and you must start again,(re-roll) a totally honest attempt must be made, then come back and tell us what you think of permadeath and if you think it's a valid game play or not.
A person who fears permadeath , is a person who would have the most fun with permadeath.
No thanks...
Honestly, what do you have to lose, time?
Exactly. Time is the most precious commodity. 8 hours lost in a MMO can be used to FINISH a FPS.
Exactly.
Having; at launch:
- 1 permadeath server would be a good idea.
- 1 lives per month server with no other death penalty*, also a good idea.
- 1 FFA PvP server, also a good idea.
- 1 PvE-grouping server (all loot placed on 1 merchant for now, later more adjustements if popular enought), also a good idea.
- 1 casual server (can't play more than 3 hours per week) where everything is earned FAST (log in, your level 20...gain 1 level per kill up to 40...then still fast, should be hard to be max level in 3 weeks, but not impossible (9 hours LOL)), also a good idea.
- Many other specific servers with their own systems...
See, the keys point here are: AT LAUNCH, AS MANY DIFFERENTS SETTING AS POSSIBLE (even if not working, advertise as such and then a note say that it is not working as intended for now, patching will solve it eventually) Specific servers = players choices = programmers working instead of designers = "democracy justifications"
See, PvE variations should be the most common, not the least. Most peoples play in PvE. Give players the choices. When new expansions are launched, try a few twists of existing setting...or new stuff althogeter.
Giving the choices to the players and then supporting these is what matters, maybe show the population on servers setting that are about to be squashed into oblivion if not more successfull...instead of light load, put a 214 players online and give a warning ahead of time that at this current course, this server would be closed in a month...or whatever...and if there is a character transfer option to some server, or not (obviously, a character on the casual server cannot be transferred anywhere short of the test server); also say how many players online would be required to keep it open, on average and at peaks, total hours played...whatever...give info ahead of time.
*: Would need to explain the death system in great lenght...can check my blog if you really want some info.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Narian89</i>
<br><b><p>Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!</p></b></blockquote>
<br>
I'll allow myself to bite... lol....
First of all, WoW has no death. Death is too meaningless. Many players travel faster by dying on ... purpose!
1. Perma-death discussions are nothing new here at mmorpg.com
Many new mmorpg players are discovering this site, so the topic of perma-death seems new to them. I'm not going to re-hash the details of all 3 sides of the arguement. But I will say this - which is something few people on all sides of the issue know about.....
2. Perma-death WORKS. It has been PROVEN. There is a market for it. There are 2 online games that have perma-death:
- Diablo 2 (yes ... made by your favorite company that also made WoW). D2 has been around for a solid 4+ years. In D2 perma-death, you die... you D-I-E. And you lose every single itsy, bitsy, thing! Perma-death is one of the things hat has kept D2 ultra popular even now.
- Strive For Power. A very unique mmorpg with many unique ideas. It's been around for a soild 3+ years. You die, well, there's some intresting things to death. It's the only mmorpg in which players can be 1-8 characters., at the SAME TIME. (I have not played in a while... I think 8 characters is the max.). You can litterally form your own group. This gets rid of teh the LFG problems that all other mmorpgs have. When each character in your party dies - that's it. They are D-E-A-D. So if you form a party of 4 characters, and 2 die in battle, they are forever dead. But technically you are still alive... since you can still continue on with your 2 surviving characters.
And to you mods here at mmorpg.com you have Race War Kingdoms listed on some parts of this site as meeting the definition of a mmorpg. Yet still, Strive For Power is not listed on mmorpg.com even though it's as much of a mmorpg as RWK.
3. These two online games have PROVEN perma-death works, and that there IS a market for permadeath. How come there are not more perma-death mmorpgs, or at least perma-death servers? Because sadly the moneymen run mmorpgs more than the programmers, and gamers. Moneymen dislike taking what they see as risks. Perfection to them is making clones, and more clones.