Shannie, it's not a PvP game, it's a freedom game. It is a difference. Take away PvP, you take away the freedom to fight. Just look at the real world. You have the choice to loot your neighbour, but you don't. Why ? Because the consequenses of doing it is too harmful. So you go to work to earn your living.
UO was supossed to have consequences. You couldn't go into town if u were a pker. So people just shopped with alts
In UO, uou couldn't level for 5 minutes with out 20 man gank squad showing up. This game will be no differnt.
There will be no alts in DF, you will have to take responibility for your actions
In Df there will be no leveling. In fact meeting an 20 gank squad will probably inclease your skill faster than the 20 as you will get skillincrease for every hit and not allof the 20 will even get the chance to hit you.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
Like you said, in the real world there are consequenses for your actions. In Darkfall, there is no real consequense for criminals. You ever hear of http://www.frontier1859.com/ ? That game will be FFA PvP as well. You want to know the big difference between the two? Consequenses. You can and will die in that game if you are a criminal. Want to kill someone? Go ahead. Now the law is after your head. In that game, there will be permadeath for your character. You can play Darkfall Online as some grand FFA PvP game of choices all you want. I was there with Shadowbane. We all know how huge it was and how it ended up F2P with 5,000 people spread across 6 servers. Now, if Darkfall Online was like Frontier1859, where if you kill someone the law was after you and everyone even your own faction could hunt you down and kill you permanently without consequence, then I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, the system as currently designed is way to pro griefer. And for the record, I don't see how you are going to be able to gather resources in safety. To me, when you are out harvesting you are going to be the most vulnerable. Back on topic. If it was a freedom game, then they'd give me a server to play the game in PvE mod if I so chose. They won't, because everyone knows that the non-PvP server would be the most popular server in the game.
Ever wondered why there are so few wolves in the world and so many sheeps ? The worlves are more dagnerous right ? It is because the wolves survival is dependant on having access to sheep. Kill too many sheeps, the wolves will die out. The same here, you will be more and more dangerous by doing PvP, but it will never make you rich unless you have a society to prey upon. Same race ganking will destroy your reputation. You will not get access to towns, quests or nps organisations that grants access to classes like the paladin and the like or even quests. In the end you will have no market to where you can sell your plundered goods. It will also be a market for con-griefers, bounty hunters that chase down griefers and get all the privileges from society while also getting the griefers loot
So DF has perhaps no permadeadth features but being a same race griefer will definetively have an impact. An impact you may want to consider before you have to reroll, because you have just one toon pr. server after all.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
For the love of God, give the FFA PVP fans a game to play. I prefer PVE and i have a ton of options (which mostly all suck) so let them have one at least.
PVE types will want raids, classes, and Levels for starters. Also because there is no turnover their economy gonna be ruined. Notice, loot based games like WoW keep increasing level caps to make this problem go away. So we're looking at a server overrun with inflation, poor PVE cause they want Class/Levels, Land being overrun cause no turnover, etc. sounds like a hell hole too me but if you want to screw them over this bad I say go ahead i'd love to see it lol
UO and Asherons call both had open ended skill systems. And they did just fine.
not really EQ smoked them both and caused both of those to innovate towards EQ. UO added on Trammel and age of shadows. Turbine updated AC into an eQ-clone, AC2
I really dont care if they add a PVE server btw but they already said it will be a 1 server game as far as everyone knows on the DFO forums BTW.
I know that sounds hard core, but FFA PvP is suppose to be hard core. This part of this discussion should be in a thread, and my apologies to others for participation is thread hijack!
Hmmm...it off topic but hard core for me is more a descriptor for a player than the game it self.
"In other news, there was an interesting debate on brokentoys.org Scott Jennings' AKA "Lum the Mad's" weblog based on an editorial on DF Warcry. Something in the comments set me off, and I actually posted a short comment that was prompted by the general attitude against and the treatment of what is referred to as "hardcore players" as outcasts by most games, and game designers."
He
In that blog he wrote;
"We can keep the “hardcore pvpers” out of our games by designing around them. They will test your design and technology to the limit therefore they need be cut out, segregated, or treated as a marketing afterthought when market saturation is achieved. It’s their own fault after all, they’re asking for too much.
It’s a real challenge to create a game that can handle every play-style within its’ context. When a group of game developers decide they’re going to make a violent MMOG (most are) they make the conscious decision of not allowing their users to challenge each other freely. It has little to do with the users themselves.
So we can keep blaming players for design and technology shortcomings and instantly labeling - (therefore limiting) games trying to cater to a wider audience as “hardcore”. But how is that progressive?"
In my mind this is very relevant point to this discussion. Designers of "themeparkgames"are putting alot of energy to control player behaviour". Aventurine is designing their game so the players themselves can control the behavior amongst themselves. It will work in DF at it works in EVE where the richest areas is controlled and protected by the players themselves. There is no need to put in NPC's here to generate something to do in these rich areas, the players themselves are doing that just fine themselves. That is the core difference between sandbox vs themepark games. To be able to pull off this, you will need the freedom to do what you want. PvP will not only about looting but forcefully removing unwanted forces from keylocations. You need FFA PvP to do this and it will be impossible to do in an PvE environment.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
Also Tasos did an interview here about a year ago, where this were said;
MMORPG.com:
Many players have certainly been looking forward to such a PvP heavy game. With the system you have in place, do you fear that griefing and ganking will lead to a smaller community in the long run?
Tasos Flambouras:
Griefing makes an impact in games not geared to deal with it. Darkfall is made for PvP. We're sick and tired of the instant association of griefing with PvP. The PvP community shouldn't constantly be discounted like that. There's a lot of griefing going on in non PvP MMOs, like kill stealing, training, camping, and when these same games enable limited PvP, it only gets worse. Griefers in these games aren't accountable for their actions and the victims can't do anything about it. Most of the complaints about griefing come from these games.
In Darkfall there's accountability via the alignment system and player enforced justice. Someone can try to grief, but won't have fun for very long as there's an alignment reward for his disposal. In Darkfall you're not a weakling starting out and you can defend yourself so newbie killing isn't such a safe pastime like it is in other games. Full loot and unrestricted PvP will also work against the griefer. NPC guards in towns provide added protection against aggressive griefing. There are no zones so griefing associated with zoning won't be a factor.
As for ganking, it's not all about numbers in Darkfall. Area of effect spells, friendly fire, and collision detection ensure that a small disciplined force can cause some damage against superior numbers. There are no levels so it's not easy to make out the "weaker" characters, and in Darkfall even new players have the capacity to defend themselves, to lay low, or to escape. There is no radar or floating names, which can work as an added protection for players traveling through dangerous areas.
I don't want to make it sound like we have a cure-all and that Darkfall will be free of all the problems that have plagued other games in the past. What I'm saying is that we've looked at these closely, both as players and as developers, and we've spent a lot of time addressing them and we'll continue to do so if and as they come up. One thing is for sure: We've empowered the Darkfall players in such a way that they can self-regulate.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
I guess those guys over at NCsoft that created Lineage 2 are a bunch of morons?
No PvE server there, and something tells me that when I lose my crap in DF it's not going to hurt half as much as when I lost it in L2. I also have a feeling that I'm going to enjoy taking someone elses crap just as much as I did in L2. I do not play a single PvE only game, and I can't stand restrained PvP, and I'm not the only. Not by a long shot.
Lineage 2 isn't a full looting game. And if you aren't a griefer, you never drop anything at all.
You didn't play L2 at release did you?
I lost near an entire set of gear to an NPC and another to a farmer who felt I was slowing his work. Not to mention the XP you would lose from dying, XP you worked hours to get. DF has no XP, and I would honestly rather replace some gear then spend 5 hours replacing the XP I lost after a 10 sec fight with another player.
And your issue isn't the open looting, it's the PvP.
Like you said, in the real world there are consequenses for your actions. In Darkfall, there is no real consequense for criminals.
I agree. There would have to be something this extreme to stop the constant random pking
Seriously - you find the most hardcore PVP MMO then complain that it's too hardcore? You find the MMO thats the most PVP orientated then complain that it has PVP? lmao, pleeaseeee.
Darkfall isn't trying to cater to either of your playstyles. They have always made it quite clear who their target audience is and that they aren't going to change this; if you don't like it, DON'T play it...there are plenty of other MMO's out there for you.
Like you said, in the real world there are consequenses for your actions. In Darkfall, there is no real consequense for criminals.
I agree. There would have to be something this extreme to stop the constant random pking
Seriously - you find the most hardcore PVP MMO you can find then you cry that it's too hardcore, pleaasseeee.
Darkfall isn't trying to cater to either of your playstyles - don't like it, DON'T play it.
Please, don't confuse what I said. I'm saying that if you are going to have a FFA PvP full loot game, you gotta make criminals pay for their actions. Make it hurt. Being put out to the chaos stone means nothing when your friends or a second account toon can just run you new gear/supplies without penalty while you continue your ganking ways. The rules as currently explained are too carebear for the criminals of the game and encourages ganking/griefing of newbie players. Also, IMHO, they need to get rid of full loot. Looting needs to be like Shadowbane.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Please, don't confuse what I said. I'm saying that if you are going to have a FFA PvP full loot game, you gotta make criminals pay for their actions. Make it hurt. Being put out to the chaos stone means nothing when your friends or a second account toon can just run you new gear/supplies without penalty while you continue your ganking ways. The rules as currently explained are too carebear for the criminals of the game and encourages ganking/griefing of newbie players. Also, IMHO, they need to get rid of full loot. Looting needs to be like Shadowbane.
Newbies can hold their own
Equipment isn't important, is cheap and easily obtainable
Consequences should be player enforced - just as it is in real life no?
There is safety in your main cities (guards etc)
Again, this game is intended to be hardcore - it doesn't need further PVP restrictions or system enforced rules - and no, they will never get rid of full loot, nor should they.
Like you said, in the real world there are consequenses for your actions. In Darkfall, there is no real consequense for criminals.
I agree. There would have to be something this extreme to stop the constant random pking
Seriously - you find the most hardcore PVP MMO you can find then you cry that it's too hardcore, pleaasseeee.
Darkfall isn't trying to cater to either of your playstyles - don't like it, DON'T play it.
Please, don't confuse what I said. I'm saying that if you are going to have a FFA PvP full loot game, you gotta make criminals pay for their actions. Make it hurt. Being put out to the chaos stone means nothing when your friends or a second account toon can just run you new gear/supplies without penalty while you continue your ganking ways. The rules as currently explained are too carebear for the criminals of the game and encourages ganking/griefing of newbie players. Also, IMHO, they need to get rid of full loot. Looting needs to be like Shadowbane.
Yeah, and remove pvp, ships, guild warfare, add instances, levels, classes and make it item based. Also I think they should make it based on the warcraft series if they can!
A non pvp server would not work in this game it is like tacking on pvp to a pve game that doesnt work, why do you think the opposite will work?
They would need to rework the entire game to allow a pve server to even function. The economy is the first thing that would have the change for instance. And they would need to make items for that server actually matter why becuase most pvers want goals they wont do something just so they can kill a boss they want the rewards as well.
Also if the AI is what they say it is then they would have to have items actually mean something because the encounters will be difficult because they arent as static as say WoW raid bosses. WoW players show all the time that they want items that match the difficulty of the fight they would just complain if they end up getting an item thats only 4 dmg points better than another item from a slightly easier encounter for instance.
This game can be successful btw if they do it right, theres no reason why somone cant make a FFA pvp game that doesnt automatically promote griefing. If this game fails it wont be because it has free for all it will be because the game is unpolished and ill thought out.
PvP games can be as successful as say wow but we will never know until we get one that isnt a buggy piece of shit like every single pvp mmo ever made. Or isnt a grind fest which also is what a lot of pvp mmos are as well.
You guys are right. There is nothing any of us are going to be able to say to get Darkfall Online to have alternative rule sets. Point taken. I will say this, IF this ever does release (Fanbois don't have a cow and scream WHEN not if, we'll talk when after they show up at a major gaming convention with a playable demo) and we get to the one year anniversary of the launch of the game, we'll re-evalute this topic and see who was right and who was wrong.
If they are maintaining over 100,000 current subscribers at that point, then I'll come back here and gladly say you guys were right and I was wrong. Saying that, if the game is sitting at one server with 15,000 subscribers will you come back and say Ghoul and Shannia, you guys were right, a diversity of ruleset servers may have been in Darkfall's best interest?
I don't think you guys would. Want to know why? Regardless of the population of the subscription base, you would be happy having just one FFA PvP server and nothing else matters. Just by having a single server you would call the game a huge success.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Darkfall might offer protection in homelands and player run cities remember you can hire guards. For all we know, the guards might roam like they do in eVE Online offering you safety from a random gank
For all we know, all gear is easy as hell to acquire. Recall, full looting applies to mobs as well. So in the journal they say there will be NPCs walking around with full loot we can take like in elder scrolls Oblivion
this game might be like EVE Online. There are a lot of EVE players on DFO forums pushing for complexity
checked out the frontier link they seem like an Indie and no screenshots. wont say much more on that thx for posting the link in any case Shannia
I'm more worried about when will this game come out and the bigger issues like Accountability, zerg guilds blowing up my city when I'm logged out, how will alignment be handled, etc.
They are already aware of the issues so I trust they will solve it. I'm more worried about much bigger issues (too me). just my opinion.
this is why I like the DFO forums they tend to discuss more thought provoking issues like SCS vs SRS
for all we know, gear might not mean anything due to realtime aim/dodge
for all we know, a ganker runs slower then a victim because the ganker might have his sword out which might make him run slower. (see chronicles of spellborn they will do that)
for all we know, the alignment hits might be really harsh making it so every guard from every town will try to kill you and maybe even popup at random whereever you are to strike
In starport, newbies are no one's punk due to aim/dodge a newb can escape death very easily. Realtime Combat changes everything this isn't UO, this isn't EVE, and for sure this isn't WoW
I encourage all to come to DFO forums and present your arguments for a PVE Server ruleset though if you really feel they are missing something.
Most of all I encourage the doubters to try games with PVP servers overflowing like Starport (more PVP servers then PVE because we all find it fun) and EVE Online (all on one server)
They need to make a non free for all, non looting server. The people who will play a ffa, full looting game is small. Maybe not large enough to support the game. If they made non ffa servers, they could get another 200k subscribers. That would ensure that the game wouldn't go under. Also, with all that extra money, coming in, they will have lots more money to develope the game, and make it better. I don't see how anyone could be against this.
first of all I'm not really against this but certainly wouldn't want to see it happen.
Why you may ask? Because that would defeat the point of what they are going for in the first place and that one thing alone would ruin everything!!
See what most people who have never played the old school version of good sandbox/ffapvp games don't understand and in saying that I refer to the large population of MMO players(note i don't say MMORPG players) are the wow babies as I like to call them. People who started playing WoW and then may have tried others after. Is that A truely good MMORPG CAN BE ffapvp if done properly.
Let me give you an expl..
You have joe shmo who likes to KILL KILL KILL all day. Well at some point either he will die or at the least his armor is going to get beat to hell. In either case he neeeds a BS to 1. Repair his items. 2.Make him new gear.
That creates a relationship between the two that is fundamental to the RPG part of the experience.
Now if you give a non ffa server you now have given those blacksmiths somewhere to go and the pvp's have no support to go out and kill kill kill.
What the ultimate goal of any dev should be in a ffapvp server should be a delicate balance between the need for someone to fight/protect/defend.
By that I mean that for expl..
I'm a poor lonely miner looking to be the next MasterSmith of the land. Well I one need to know I can get the stuff required to creat. 2.Need to know there is a demand for my services.
Next we have the PVP freak he also need to have a reason to help poor old miner man.If I never loose my gear why would I wast time helping a miner.
This IMO is where the conflict comes in and should be a pivitol point of pvp.
All and all it seems easy to manage those simple few items but as we all know there has yet to be anyone to do it seeing as we are all looking for the next big thing.
I think Eve's system works great but unfortunately the combat is very slow IMO but the general supply and demand model is fantastic and works very well.(I'll mention I read the economist report from his work done there and I must say it say's a lot for player driven Economy's)
I have faith in the Darkfall team I'm hoping they are creating what I imagined UO2 could have been if taken further. I can remember thinking when I started MMORPG's with UO back in the pre-Tram day's OMG the possibility's then it went the way it went to my dismay.
The only good MMORPG that will ever be the end all be all of MMO's will be one where the player creats and drives the storyline in a full all out real world experience. Give the players all the tools with a general framework and World. Let the players be the quest makers/givers/receivers the only thing devs should create and work on is the World. Put in a great dragon and then leave it at that but give us the tools to make that dragon what we want it to be.(need imagination for that last bit)
Last expl...
Dev create a crazy multi lvl dungeon with whatever thier disturbed little minds can come up with and then give it to the players (who have a quest tool)(i guess ill call it that seeing as they don't exist to players). Now lets say I come tamping across the landscape and see this huge boulder has shifted and opened up a cave.Well me being the adventuring type hell yeh I'm going in it. Dee Duh Dee I ran into a huge monolithic serpent and he uber ganked the hell out of me.What do I do I know I cant go in and get my stuff he will just res kill me right! Oh no wait I do have an option create a qwest for an uber adventuring guild or raid group or maybe I can even guess as to how many it would take and make it a requirement for the quest. That IMO would get and keep everyone subed. Obviously that is a fantasy seeing as you would prolly need the nasa core CPU to do it but point being it would be great wouldn't it
And to anyone saying loot wouldn't decay well of course it would but you could have it drop into a dungeon crate for a set amount of time before it would that way people wou have a chance to get it but after say 4 weeks it would decay from the crate.
Anyways thats just my two sense sorry i got off topic but in finishing I'll say if they do it right no one will care that it is ffapvp its just hard as hell to get it right.Resources/battleareas/loot/pve content all need to be placed and blended properly for everyone to feel ok with it too. If there is a 100v100 battle going down in a certain area most likely most wont try to go track down a random kill and even if they do if the incentive is there for someone to protect you while you mine that random guy wont have it so easy. So Ya the huge thing is balance between a hell of a lot of things and if you intorduce a non pvp server you screw everything up to the point of no return. IMO of course.
In reading my own post it brought a thought to mind and I will add it to my sig later.
I fnd it funny people will scream cry and bitch about being res killed by gankers yet those same people run into battle grounds and die over and over yet never complain. What is the difference really?
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
Originally posted by Shannia You guys are right. There is nothing any of us are going to be able to say to get Darkfall Online to have alternative rule sets. Point taken. I will say this, IF this ever does release (Fanbois don't have a cow and scream WHEN not if, we'll talk when after they show up at a major gaming convention with a playable demo) and we get to the one year anniversary of the launch of the game, we'll re-evalute this topic and see who was right and who was wrong. If they are maintaining over 100,000 current subscribers at that point, then I'll come back here and gladly say you guys were right and I was wrong. Saying that, if the game is sitting at one server with 15,000 subscribers will you come back and say Ghoul and Shannia, you guys were right, a diversity of ruleset servers may have been in Darkfall's best interest? I don't think you guys would. Want to know why? Regardless of the population of the subscription base, you would be happy having just one FFA PvP server and nothing else matters. Just by having a single server you would call the game a huge success.
They need to make a non free for all, non looting server. The people who will play a ffa, full looting game is small. Maybe not large enough to support the game. If they made non ffa servers, they could get another 200k subscribers. That would ensure that the game wouldn't go under. Also, with all that extra money, coming in, they will have lots more money to develope the game, and make it better. I don't see how anyone could be against this.
Hmm how should i put this?
Darkfall isnt WoW. Darkfall isnt AoC. Darkfall isnt one of the all too common streamlined carebear games. Darkfall is full loot, total freedom, no instances, sandbox game and more and more. Read the FAQ!!!
If you dont like Darkfall game and its features go play one of the many other MMORPG games arround that will fit your needs like a glove.
If they should listen to your proposal would be like selling the soul to the devil.
They need to make a non free for all, non looting server. The people who will play a ffa, full looting game is small. Maybe not large enough to support the game. If they made non ffa servers, they could get another 200k subscribers. That would ensure that the game wouldn't go under. Also, with all that extra money, coming in, they will have lots more money to develope the game, and make it better. I don't see how anyone could be against this.
I somehow doubt that the devs would take a dump on and destroy the core aspect of their whole game.
The game is built around ffa and full looting. Without those aspects core to the game, the game will not work as it's being designed. Hopefully the game will actually work and succeed at the devs' objectives.
Example: the crafting system : it's designed around needing multiple sets of the same gear/weapons and item loss. Take out full loot and you'd need items to be harder to craft with more mats and more time invested.
Your logic is just like SOE's with regards to SWG: let's change core aspects of the game in attempt to make more money through more subs.
There's plenty of non-ffa / loot games out or coming out. Warhammer or Age of Conan might be more up your alley.
That's like buying Quake Wars: Enemy territory, then asking ID to make it not pvp. It's like buying a sedan car, then demanding they change it into a SUV.
Like buying EvE Online.. then asking them to make a server with the 0.0 space not be free for all pvp.
If you don't like what the product is.. why are you buying the product?
You still had full on PvP on the Felucca side, and with introduction of Factions you had more PvP then ever...
It was still full loot.
And they still kept one server Felucca only (full FFA PvP w/ looting) for the "hardcore" called Siege Perilous.
I know, I played on Siege.
They realized, some 8-9 years ago theat the market for PvP only game just wasn't strong enough, and do you know what happened when the released the Trammel / Felucca split?
Huge population increase!
So I say,
Give Darkfall their full FFA PvP server AND a more PvE oriented server at launch, or make it like UO where you could easily pass between the two.
Then see how many players go to each, and create new servers accordingly.
UO realized years and years ago that they had to make this important step.
If Darkfall doesn't learn from this lesson, as others have said I dont believe darkfall will ever sustatin a lareg enough population.
Even EVE has high-sec space that is relatively safe for PvE.
Ultima Online did it and it worked out just fine. You still had full on PvP on the Felucca side, and with introduction of Factions you had more PvP then ever... It was still full loot. And they still kept one server Felucca only (full FFA PvP w/ looting) for the "hardcore" called Siege Perilous. I know, I played on Siege. They realized, some 8-9 years ago theat the market for PvP only game just wasn't strong enough, and do you know what happened when the released the Trammel / Felucca split? Huge population increase! So I say, Give Darkfall their full FFA PvP server AND a more PvE oriented server at launch, or make it like UO where you could easily pass between the two. Then see how many players go to each, and create new servers accordingly. UO realized years and years ago that they had to make this important step. If Darkfall doesn't learn from this lesson, as others have said I dont believe darkfall will ever sustatin a lareg enough population. Even EVE has high-sec space that is relatively safe for PvE. All things in a MMORPG require balance.
UO did it and it didnt work out just fine.
The introduction of Trammel none-PvP mirror world was the first step in ruining UO as a PvP-game. AOS was the second step. UO of today is more a carebear game then a PvP-game. Darkfall wont go down this road, devs already explained this.
Sure the subs might increase with a none-PvP server but the community will be split and this will never happen in Darkfall since they will probably and hopefully selfpublish the game. A selfpublish will make them in control of patches and the future of the game.
Comments
UO was supossed to have consequences. You couldn't go into town if u were a pker. So people just shopped with alts
In UO, uou couldn't level for 5 minutes with out 20 man gank squad showing up. This game will be no differnt.
There will be no alts in DF, you will have to take responibility for your actions
In Df there will be no leveling. In fact meeting an 20 gank squad will probably inclease your skill faster than the 20 as you will get skillincrease for every hit and not allof the 20 will even get the chance to hit you.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
So DF has perhaps no permadeadth features but being a same race griefer will definetively have an impact. An impact you may want to consider before you have to reroll, because you have just one toon pr. server after all.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
For the love of God, give the FFA PVP fans a game to play. I prefer PVE and i have a ton of options (which mostly all suck) so let them have one at least.
darkfall is for everyone you just got to know you will have to pvp 2 but the PVE should be awosme to along with the other stuff thats in the game
guess we will see ./shrug
not really EQ smoked them both and caused both of those to innovate towards EQ. UO added on Trammel and age of shadows. Turbine updated AC into an eQ-clone, AC2
I really dont care if they add a PVE server btw but they already said it will be a 1 server game as far as everyone knows on the DFO forums BTW.
ill just leave it at that for now...
Tasos wrote in DJ#12 that:
"In other news, there was an interesting debate on brokentoys.org Scott Jennings' AKA "Lum the Mad's" weblog based on an editorial on DF Warcry. Something in the comments set me off, and I actually posted a short comment that was prompted by the general attitude against and the treatment of what is referred to as "hardcore players" as outcasts by most games, and game designers."
He
In that blog he wrote;
"We can keep the “hardcore pvpers” out of our games by designing around them. They will test your design and technology to the limit therefore they need be cut out, segregated, or treated as a marketing afterthought when market saturation is achieved. It’s their own fault after all, they’re asking for too much.
It’s a real challenge to create a game that can handle every play-style within its’ context. When a group of game developers decide they’re going to make a violent MMOG (most are) they make the conscious decision of not allowing their users to challenge each other freely. It has little to do with the users themselves.
So we can keep blaming players for design and technology shortcomings and instantly labeling - (therefore limiting) games trying to cater to a wider audience as “hardcore”. But how is that progressive?"
In my mind this is very relevant point to this discussion. Designers of "themeparkgames"are putting alot of energy to control player behaviour". Aventurine is designing their game so the players themselves can control the behavior amongst themselves. It will work in DF at it works in EVE where the richest areas is controlled and protected by the players themselves. There is no need to put in NPC's here to generate something to do in these rich areas, the players themselves are doing that just fine themselves. That is the core difference between sandbox vs themepark games. To be able to pull off this, you will need the freedom to do what you want. PvP will not only about looting but forcefully removing unwanted forces from keylocations. You need FFA PvP to do this and it will be impossible to do in an PvE environment.
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And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
FYI Warcry have run 3 editorials on the subject, thay may be a interresting read;
Steinhauer: The PvP debate part 1, part 2 and part 3
Also Tasos did an interview here about a year ago, where this were said;
Griefing makes an impact in games not geared to deal with it. Darkfall is made for PvP. We're sick and tired of the instant association of griefing with PvP. The PvP community shouldn't constantly be discounted like that. There's a lot of griefing going on in non PvP MMOs, like kill stealing, training, camping, and when these same games enable limited PvP, it only gets worse. Griefers in these games aren't accountable for their actions and the victims can't do anything about it. Most of the complaints about griefing come from these games.
In Darkfall there's accountability via the alignment system and player enforced justice. Someone can try to grief, but won't have fun for very long as there's an alignment reward for his disposal. In Darkfall you're not a weakling starting out and you can defend yourself so newbie killing isn't such a safe pastime like it is in other games. Full loot and unrestricted PvP will also work against the griefer. NPC guards in towns provide added protection against aggressive griefing. There are no zones so griefing associated with zoning won't be a factor.
As for ganking, it's not all about numbers in Darkfall. Area of effect spells, friendly fire, and collision detection ensure that a small disciplined force can cause some damage against superior numbers. There are no levels so it's not easy to make out the "weaker" characters, and in Darkfall even new players have the capacity to defend themselves, to lay low, or to escape. There is no radar or floating names, which can work as an added protection for players traveling through dangerous areas.
I don't want to make it sound like we have a cure-all and that Darkfall will be free of all the problems that have plagued other games in the past. What I'm saying is that we've looked at these closely, both as players and as developers, and we've spent a lot of time addressing them and we'll continue to do so if and as they come up. One thing is for sure: We've empowered the Darkfall players in such a way that they can self-regulate.
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And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
You didn't play L2 at release did you?
I lost near an entire set of gear to an NPC and another to a farmer who felt I was slowing his work. Not to mention the XP you would lose from dying, XP you worked hours to get. DF has no XP, and I would honestly rather replace some gear then spend 5 hours replacing the XP I lost after a 10 sec fight with another player.
And your issue isn't the open looting, it's the PvP.
Wish Darkfall would release.
I think if the DF developers says a non PvP server wouldent work..i believe them.
Greifing and ganking is something we see in NON PvP MMOs. Not in DF: )
I agree. There would have to be something this extreme to stop the constant random pkingSeriously - you find the most hardcore PVP MMO then complain that it's too hardcore? You find the MMO thats the most PVP orientated then complain that it has PVP? lmao, pleeaseeee.
Darkfall isn't trying to cater to either of your playstyles. They have always made it quite clear who their target audience is and that they aren't going to change this; if you don't like it, DON'T play it...there are plenty of other MMO's out there for you.
Seriously - you find the most hardcore PVP MMO you can find then you cry that it's too hardcore, pleaasseeee.Darkfall isn't trying to cater to either of your playstyles - don't like it, DON'T play it.
Please, don't confuse what I said. I'm saying that if you are going to have a FFA PvP full loot game, you gotta make criminals pay for their actions. Make it hurt. Being put out to the chaos stone means nothing when your friends or a second account toon can just run you new gear/supplies without penalty while you continue your ganking ways. The rules as currently explained are too carebear for the criminals of the game and encourages ganking/griefing of newbie players. Also, IMHO, they need to get rid of full loot. Looting needs to be like Shadowbane.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Again, this game is intended to be hardcore - it doesn't need further PVP restrictions or system enforced rules - and no, they will never get rid of full loot, nor should they.
Seriously - you find the most hardcore PVP MMO you can find then you cry that it's too hardcore, pleaasseeee.Darkfall isn't trying to cater to either of your playstyles - don't like it, DON'T play it.
Please, don't confuse what I said. I'm saying that if you are going to have a FFA PvP full loot game, you gotta make criminals pay for their actions. Make it hurt. Being put out to the chaos stone means nothing when your friends or a second account toon can just run you new gear/supplies without penalty while you continue your ganking ways. The rules as currently explained are too carebear for the criminals of the game and encourages ganking/griefing of newbie players. Also, IMHO, they need to get rid of full loot. Looting needs to be like Shadowbane.
Yeah, and remove pvp, ships, guild warfare, add instances, levels, classes and make it item based. Also I think they should make it based on the warcraft series if they can!
PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!
A non pvp server would not work in this game it is like tacking on pvp to a pve game that doesnt work, why do you think the opposite will work?
They would need to rework the entire game to allow a pve server to even function. The economy is the first thing that would have the change for instance. And they would need to make items for that server actually matter why becuase most pvers want goals they wont do something just so they can kill a boss they want the rewards as well.
Also if the AI is what they say it is then they would have to have items actually mean something because the encounters will be difficult because they arent as static as say WoW raid bosses. WoW players show all the time that they want items that match the difficulty of the fight they would just complain if they end up getting an item thats only 4 dmg points better than another item from a slightly easier encounter for instance.
This game can be successful btw if they do it right, theres no reason why somone cant make a FFA pvp game that doesnt automatically promote griefing. If this game fails it wont be because it has free for all it will be because the game is unpolished and ill thought out.
PvP games can be as successful as say wow but we will never know until we get one that isnt a buggy piece of shit like every single pvp mmo ever made. Or isnt a grind fest which also is what a lot of pvp mmos are as well.
It would be fun to see a non PvP server on Battlefield as well.
Thats how clever a non empire building server would be in DF.
You guys are right. There is nothing any of us are going to be able to say to get Darkfall Online to have alternative rule sets. Point taken. I will say this, IF this ever does release (Fanbois don't have a cow and scream WHEN not if, we'll talk when after they show up at a major gaming convention with a playable demo) and we get to the one year anniversary of the launch of the game, we'll re-evalute this topic and see who was right and who was wrong.
If they are maintaining over 100,000 current subscribers at that point, then I'll come back here and gladly say you guys were right and I was wrong. Saying that, if the game is sitting at one server with 15,000 subscribers will you come back and say Ghoul and Shannia, you guys were right, a diversity of ruleset servers may have been in Darkfall's best interest?
I don't think you guys would. Want to know why? Regardless of the population of the subscription base, you would be happy having just one FFA PvP server and nothing else matters. Just by having a single server you would call the game a huge success.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Darkfall might offer protection in homelands and player run cities remember you can hire guards. For all we know, the guards might roam like they do in eVE Online offering you safety from a random gank
For all we know, all gear is easy as hell to acquire. Recall, full looting applies to mobs as well. So in the journal they say there will be NPCs walking around with full loot we can take like in elder scrolls Oblivion
this game might be like EVE Online. There are a lot of EVE players on DFO forums pushing for complexity
checked out the frontier link they seem like an Indie and no screenshots. wont say much more on that thx for posting the link in any case Shannia
I'm more worried about when will this game come out and the bigger issues like Accountability, zerg guilds blowing up my city when I'm logged out, how will alignment be handled, etc.
They are already aware of the issues so I trust they will solve it. I'm more worried about much bigger issues (too me). just my opinion.
this is why I like the DFO forums they tend to discuss more thought provoking issues like SCS vs SRS
for all we know, gear might not mean anything due to realtime aim/dodge
for all we know, a ganker runs slower then a victim because the ganker might have his sword out which might make him run slower. (see chronicles of spellborn they will do that)
for all we know, the alignment hits might be really harsh making it so every guard from every town will try to kill you and maybe even popup at random whereever you are to strike
In starport, newbies are no one's punk due to aim/dodge a newb can escape death very easily. Realtime Combat changes everything this isn't UO, this isn't EVE, and for sure this isn't WoW
I encourage all to come to DFO forums and present your arguments for a PVE Server ruleset though if you really feel they are missing something.
Most of all I encourage the doubters to try games with PVP servers overflowing like Starport (more PVP servers then PVE because we all find it fun) and EVE Online (all on one server)
first of all I'm not really against this but certainly wouldn't want to see it happen.
Why you may ask? Because that would defeat the point of what they are going for in the first place and that one thing alone would ruin everything!!
See what most people who have never played the old school version of good sandbox/ffapvp games don't understand and in saying that I refer to the large population of MMO players(note i don't say MMORPG players) are the wow babies as I like to call them. People who started playing WoW and then may have tried others after. Is that A truely good MMORPG CAN BE ffapvp if done properly.
Let me give you an expl..
You have joe shmo who likes to KILL KILL KILL all day. Well at some point either he will die or at the least his armor is going to get beat to hell. In either case he neeeds a BS to 1. Repair his items. 2.Make him new gear.
That creates a relationship between the two that is fundamental to the RPG part of the experience.
Now if you give a non ffa server you now have given those blacksmiths somewhere to go and the pvp's have no support to go out and kill kill kill.
What the ultimate goal of any dev should be in a ffapvp server should be a delicate balance between the need for someone to fight/protect/defend.
By that I mean that for expl..
I'm a poor lonely miner looking to be the next MasterSmith of the land. Well I one need to know I can get the stuff required to creat. 2.Need to know there is a demand for my services.
Next we have the PVP freak he also need to have a reason to help poor old miner man.If I never loose my gear why would I wast time helping a miner.
This IMO is where the conflict comes in and should be a pivitol point of pvp.
All and all it seems easy to manage those simple few items but as we all know there has yet to be anyone to do it seeing as we are all looking for the next big thing.
I think Eve's system works great but unfortunately the combat is very slow IMO but the general supply and demand model is fantastic and works very well.(I'll mention I read the economist report from his work done there and I must say it say's a lot for player driven Economy's)
I have faith in the Darkfall team I'm hoping they are creating what I imagined UO2 could have been if taken further. I can remember thinking when I started MMORPG's with UO back in the pre-Tram day's OMG the possibility's then it went the way it went to my dismay.
The only good MMORPG that will ever be the end all be all of MMO's will be one where the player creats and drives the storyline in a full all out real world experience. Give the players all the tools with a general framework and World. Let the players be the quest makers/givers/receivers the only thing devs should create and work on is the World. Put in a great dragon and then leave it at that but give us the tools to make that dragon what we want it to be.(need imagination for that last bit)
Last expl...
Dev create a crazy multi lvl dungeon with whatever thier disturbed little minds can come up with and then give it to the players (who have a quest tool)(i guess ill call it that seeing as they don't exist to players). Now lets say I come tamping across the landscape and see this huge boulder has shifted and opened up a cave.Well me being the adventuring type hell yeh I'm going in it. Dee Duh Dee I ran into a huge monolithic serpent and he uber ganked the hell out of me.What do I do I know I cant go in and get my stuff he will just res kill me right! Oh no wait I do have an option create a qwest for an uber adventuring guild or raid group or maybe I can even guess as to how many it would take and make it a requirement for the quest. That IMO would get and keep everyone subed. Obviously that is a fantasy seeing as you would prolly need the nasa core CPU to do it but point being it would be great wouldn't it
And to anyone saying loot wouldn't decay well of course it would but you could have it drop into a dungeon crate for a set amount of time before it would that way people wou have a chance to get it but after say 4 weeks it would decay from the crate.
Anyways thats just my two sense sorry i got off topic but in finishing I'll say if they do it right no one will care that it is ffapvp its just hard as hell to get it right.Resources/battleareas/loot/pve content all need to be placed and blended properly for everyone to feel ok with it too. If there is a 100v100 battle going down in a certain area most likely most wont try to go track down a random kill and even if they do if the incentive is there for someone to protect you while you mine that random guy wont have it so easy. So Ya the huge thing is balance between a hell of a lot of things and if you intorduce a non pvp server you screw everything up to the point of no return. IMO of course.
In reading my own post it brought a thought to mind and I will add it to my sig later.
I fnd it funny people will scream cry and bitch about being res killed by gankers yet those same people run into battle grounds and die over and over yet never complain. What is the difference really?
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
hi Shannia please checkout WELL Online this is what you're after:
WELL Online PVP FAQ - Justice system
Its a LOT more further along then the Frontier link you posted.
Hmm how should i put this?
Darkfall isnt WoW. Darkfall isnt AoC. Darkfall isnt one of the all too common streamlined carebear games. Darkfall is full loot, total freedom, no instances, sandbox game and more and more. Read the FAQ!!!
If you dont like Darkfall game and its features go play one of the many other MMORPG games arround that will fit your needs like a glove.
If they should listen to your proposal would be like selling the soul to the devil.
The game is built around ffa and full looting. Without those aspects core to the game, the game will not work as it's being designed. Hopefully the game will actually work and succeed at the devs' objectives.
Example: the crafting system : it's designed around needing multiple sets of the same gear/weapons and item loss. Take out full loot and you'd need items to be harder to craft with more mats and more time invested.
Your logic is just like SOE's with regards to SWG: let's change core aspects of the game in attempt to make more money through more subs.
There's plenty of non-ffa / loot games out or coming out. Warhammer or Age of Conan might be more up your alley.
That's like buying Quake Wars: Enemy territory, then asking ID to make it not pvp. It's like buying a sedan car, then demanding they change it into a SUV.
Like buying EvE Online.. then asking them to make a server with the 0.0 space not be free for all pvp.
If you don't like what the product is.. why are you buying the product?
Ultima Online did it and it worked out just fine.
You still had full on PvP on the Felucca side, and with introduction of Factions you had more PvP then ever...
It was still full loot.
And they still kept one server Felucca only (full FFA PvP w/ looting) for the "hardcore" called Siege Perilous.
I know, I played on Siege.
They realized, some 8-9 years ago theat the market for PvP only game just wasn't strong enough, and do you know what happened when the released the Trammel / Felucca split?
Huge population increase!
So I say,
Give Darkfall their full FFA PvP server AND a more PvE oriented server at launch, or make it like UO where you could easily pass between the two.
Then see how many players go to each, and create new servers accordingly.
UO realized years and years ago that they had to make this important step.
If Darkfall doesn't learn from this lesson, as others have said I dont believe darkfall will ever sustatin a lareg enough population.
Even EVE has high-sec space that is relatively safe for PvE.
All things in a MMORPG require balance.
UO did it and it didnt work out just fine.
The introduction of Trammel none-PvP mirror world was the first step in ruining UO as a PvP-game. AOS was the second step. UO of today is more a carebear game then a PvP-game. Darkfall wont go down this road, devs already explained this.
Sure the subs might increase with a none-PvP server but the community will be split and this will never happen in Darkfall since they will probably and hopefully selfpublish the game. A selfpublish will make them in control of patches and the future of the game.