Originally posted by sookster54 Originally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by hubertgrove Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Bobbey I don't get one thing...
If the game mas made looking to much like World of Warcraft, why the hell do really many former SWG players play WoW then? IMO WoW is far worse than NGE, and that does not make me play SWG but I wouldn't stick my limbs into blizzards disney crappy toonish version of a fantasy world... geesh. Sure hope AoC lives up to the expectations now... or someone else make a SW MMO without LA haveing too much to say.
You may not like the way WoW looks, but it is a far better, bigger, and smarter game than the current SWG. It also is not a broken piece of garbage, which unfortunately is what SWG always was, which is why it suffered in the first place.
They NEVER fixed that, which is one more reason why it failed epically with the NGE. Plus. ALL evidence from statements of the participants show that all ideas and implementations came from SOE, NOT LA.
i am sorry but pre-CU was not a 'broken piece of garbage'. It did suffer very badly from severe bugs, unbalanced professions and a total lack of marketing - but it was playable and, even in its poor state, most veterans would agree it was still superior to most other MMORPGs out there now. I personally believe that if SOE had invested the resources it ploughed into the bugged and limited Kash and Mustaphar expansions into fixing the game, balancing it and marketing it, then SWG would currently have a million subscribers and, as they added more planets, one every six months say and new features to the space game, subscriptions would have risen incrementally. But they didn't. Those cretins.
Sorry, it was the coolest game ever made, but it was still a broken piece of garbage. Those are not mutually exclusive things. Had it not been it would probably be the number two game on the market now. I could go on with a list of bugs (but none really affected me except one) like disappearing items which usually came back on a relog, server boundries causing odd behavior on structures, lightsaber stuffing, double slicing, repeative exceptional/legendary loot exploit, rubberbanding, such and such and not surprisingly over half those STILL exists in the NGE. But the pre-CU gameplay and character development was supirior to what we see in most MMOs today, plain and simple.
Exactly. What a different (virtual) world we'de be in had they just fixed what was broken instead of destroying all that was good. I certainly wouln't be on these boards.
Fixng by removal fixed nothing, just made matters worse.
I think the number one problem facing these folks (and I can expand this view to the entertainment industry as a whole) they've lost sight of the most important thing: Games are supposed to be fun. If they could take a step back and look at games the way players do, they wouldn't have to worry about looking at it as product units. If you put your heart and soul into what you are doing, if you have a real passion for it, you don't need to worry about making money, it'll take care of itself. If you want to say, that's just not how it works, read a biography on one of the greatest producers of entertainment the world has ever seen: Walt Disney. He never did anything he did for the money; he just had a passion for what he was doing and settled for nothing less than perfection. I just wish I had a lump of clay.
um.....you should do a little more "research" on ol' Uncle Walt. Saying he never did anything for the money is like saying SOE has only the best interest of their customers at heart.
Some comments from the lastest bio on Walt with the first time release of all family archives on sweet Mr. Disney
"He testified enthusiastically before the House UnAmerican Activities Committee and detailed what he saw as communist plots to take over Hollywood. He branded some former animators communists, said the Screen Actors Guild was a communist front and labelled a 1941 strike that hit his studio a communist plot. He even contacted the FBI about alleged communist infiltration."
(It is said that was is how he controlled his competition.)
"When his cartoonists tried to form a union, he brought in armed guards. He fired organisers, cut wages and slashed the opening hours of the studio coffee shop. At one point, faced with a strike picket, Disney had to be physically restrained from attacking the leader of the industrial action"
"He also associated with a group of anti-semitic members of the Motion Picture Alliance and frowned on the idea of hiring black people to work in Disneyland."
"Disney refused to cut short a business trip when his father died and missed his funeral."
Disney made some nice cartoons and introduced the world to "Modern Theme Parks" but he was a cruel, reclusive, abusive, individual in real life.
um.....you should do a little more "research" on ol' Uncle Walt. Saying he never did anything for the money is like saying SOE has only the best interest of their customers at heart. Some comments from the lastest bio on Walt with the first time release of all family archives on sweet Mr. Disney "He testified enthusiastically before the House UnAmerican Activities Committee and detailed what he saw as communist plots to take over Hollywood. He branded some former animators communists, said the Screen Actors Guild was a communist front and labelled a 1941 strike that hit his studio a communist plot. He even contacted the FBI about alleged communist infiltration." (It is said that was is how he controlled his competition.) "When his cartoonists tried to form a union, he brought in armed guards. He fired organisers, cut wages and slashed the opening hours of the studio coffee shop. At one point, faced with a strike picket, Disney had to be physically restrained from attacking the leader of the industrial action" "He also associated with a group of anti-semitic members of the Motion Picture Alliance and frowned on the idea of hiring black people to work in Disneyland." "Disney refused to cut short a business trip when his father died and missed his funeral." Disney made some nice cartoons and introduced the world to "Modern Theme Parks" but he was a cruel, reclusive, abusive, individual in real life.
Some of the same things can be said about the industry today though too. There are no developers, artist, animator unions out there in the gaming industry. Many devs are forced to work unrelenting, unpaid overtime as salaried employees, as deadlines get ever tighter and less money is funneled into projects. Alot of developers at every company are fired after the game is done or released. This happens over and over again.
Walt Disney may have been no angel, and in no way am I defending his actions, but the current industry is run very similarly in many, many ways.
I didn't know this before, but after talking to some people who went to the latest fan fest, I was told that it was actually Lucas Arts that pushed through the CU and NGE.
I just keep it simple and blame both companies for the management of SWG.
And yes, I do boycott the products of both companies, though only in regards to computer games.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Yay! Another fanboi shill posts the old "It wasn't SOE, even though they admitted it was their idea and convinced LEC to agree to it, it was all LEC!" lie for the thousandth time! Another thousand or so times and you might even start to believe it yourself!
And of course you have links to this admission? Oh that's right we don't provide proof on these forums, because then we might actually have to know what we were talking about before we opened our mouths.
To the OP:
Give it up man. No one here wants to admit that George Lucas is anything but the second coming of Christ. It doesn't matter how much you show them that proves he's the biggest turd muncher to walk the planet, it doesn't matter how many times LucasArts screws over the developers and screws things up, they just don't want to see it. SOE is satan and LA is goodly and pure. I used to argue the same thing. My favorite line from those days: "The only proof you have is the credits in the book!" as if the credits in the book were somehow forged or not really proof. Just goes to show you the mentality.
Actually, lots of evidence for this has been provided on these forums, but one key piece came from Brenlo (head of SWG communications) on the SWG forums when he said, in the midst of just this very argument on those forums.:
"So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, To try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed.
We can, and I am sure manyof us will, debate for years on end whether this was agood idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different.
Where did we go wrong? delivery, we failed in our timing and communication> That is where we let you down the most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize."
Note that at the time Brenlo STILL thinks the NGE was a good idea.
The Jeff mentioned is Jeff Freeman, who, along with the design team, came up with and pushed for the clicky combat system part of the NGE.
Now, is this proof? I submit it is better evidence than anything the "it came from LA" crowd can muster up.
Well let me see if I can "muster" some up for you then:
LucasArts was the PRODUCER of the game. A quick look at what a game producer does, and you'll find out basically the producer is in charge of the game.
Now let's analyze the statement that you are offering as your proof:
"So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. "
Absolutely a true statement (obviously) but what exactly are they saying? All they're saying is that SOE, who is the DEVELOPER of the game DEVELOPED the NGE. Yikes, if you needed an actual quote to figure that out, I worry. What it doesn't say, however, is who prompted SOE to make the change. If you analyze the situation and you realize that LucasArts is the boss, it's really daft to think that SOE would radically change a game with no input from THEIR BOSS! I dunno doesn't make sense to me. Then consider how right after the NGE LucasArts became very active and vocal.Hmm LucasArts becomes more active, and the NGE comes out...? Ah but maybe I'm just reading too much into it eh?
Ah, but Salvaje, LEC was every bit as mesmerized by WoW as SOE was. I dare say they were even more pissed than SOE that their greatest IP in the history of the universe got totally pwned by those...upstarts...at Blizzard.
So they told SOE to make it more like WoW, which SOE, which was being kicked all over the virtual map by those...upstarts...at Blizz were all to happy to comply with LEC's wishes on this matter.
The rot was there in the CU, with the damn cartoon icons, the overt levels, the cooldowns, all the other concepts ripped directly from the systems of WoW.
The NGE just made it even more obvious, with the very clear exception of the pseudo FPS combat UI that sucked bantha heinie...totally inappropriate for anyone who was not an actor in a Ballpark Franks commercial (that is, did not have three hands).
Which is why I apportion blame equally between the two. LEC had to greenlight every change SOE made.
Those two organizations are in it together.The problem is they copied what sucks about WoW, and didn't emulate WHY WoW is successful. Thus, they failed.
Once again, SOE made that call. had they copied what was good about WoW (it actually WORKS and is not a broken piece of crap -- they have real quality control over there), SWG would have stellar figures. Instead, they added ONE quest line, copied levels, copied classes, not realizing those things are NOT why WoW succeeds.
You can't copy someone who already spends more money than you by cutting the budget. Dumb.
Oh and since you mention QA, guess who was in charge of that at least up until the NGE (Not sure now I don't follow the game anymore): Yep LucasArts (you can check the game credits if you don't believe me). You sure you want to stay on the "LucasArts is all that is good and holy" kick?
Ah, but Salvaje, LEC was every bit as mesmerized by WoW as SOE was. I dare say they were even more pissed than SOE that their greatest IP in the history of the universe got totally pwned by those...upstarts...at Blizzard.
So they told SOE to make it more like WoW, which SOE, which was being kicked all over the virtual map by those...upstarts...at Blizz were all to happy to comply with LEC's wishes on this matter.
The rot was there in the CU, with the damn cartoon icons, the overt levels, the cooldowns, all the other concepts ripped directly from the systems of WoW.
The NGE just made it even more obvious, with the very clear exception of the pseudo FPS combat UI that sucked bantha heinie...totally inappropriate for anyone who was not an actor in a Ballpark Franks commercial (that is, did not have three hands).
Which is why I apportion blame equally between the two. LEC had to greenlight every change SOE made.
Those two organizations are in it together.The problem is they copied what sucks about WoW, and didn't emulate WHY WoW is successful. Thus, they failed.
Once again, SOE made that call. had they copied what was good about WoW (it actually WORKS and is not a broken piece of crap -- they have real quality control over there), SWG would have stellar figures. Instead, they added ONE quest line, copied levels, copied classes, not realizing those things are NOT why WoW succeeds.
You can't copy someone who already spends more money than you by cutting the budget. Dumb.
Oh and since you mention QA, guess who was in charge of that at least up until the NGE (Not sure now I don't follow the game anymore): Yep LucasArts (you can check the game credits if you don't believe me). You sure you want to stay on the "LucasArts is all that is good and holy" kick?
Do you have any proof that LA was solely responsible for QA? I seriously doubt it.
Like others have said--what probably happened is that LA told SOE to do "something" to get subs up. SOE came up with the NGE (as Jeff Freeman has already admitted) and sold it to LA as the salvation of SWG. Both companies share the blame but SOE was responsible.
Yes I have tons of proof LA was responsible for QA. If you look at the game credits you'll see Lead QA "some guys name" LucasArts. Now I've been told in the past that somehow that isn't proof, you decide. And I never said SOLELY responsible, I just said in charge of, as in Lead QA worked for LucasArts.
LucasArts said change the game, SOE did. If LucasArts didn't tell them to change the game, we'd still have the game I loved. Whether what the game changed into was good or bad is irrelevant, if LucasArts didn't push for the change to being with, it wouldn't have happened at all.
Yes I have tons of proof LA was responsible for QA. If you look at the game credits you'll see Lead QA "some guys name" LucasArts. Now I've been told in the past that somehow that isn't proof, you decide. And I never said SOLELY responsible, I just said in charge of, as in Lead QA worked for LucasArts. LucasArts said change the game, SOE did. If LucasArts didn't tell them to change the game, we'd still have the game I loved. Whether what the game changed into was good or bad is irrelevant, if LucasArts didn't push for the change to being with, it wouldn't have happened at all.
Of course SOE hasn't screwed up any other game it has touched. MO, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, and even PoBS, of course the fanbois will point out things like "they were only the publisher" or "it was Brad's fault!!"
Because this is not the only time SOE has exhibited this behavior towards a game it owns, published, or buys out; (granted SWQ was hit the worse IMHO), we can safely blame LA.
Personally I believe threads like this are damage control, usually started or at least supported by SOE employees, and we have seen that in the past also.
I wouldn't disagree with the assumption that Lucas Arts got tired of the downward spiral of the game and said do something. Maybe it didn't happen, but I can also see that as a likely outcome.
You have read that Jeff Freeman blogged about coming up with the idea of the NGE and his team CAMPAIGNING to get it passed. That alone eliminates the speculation the Lucas Arts forced this on SOE.
Then you could look at the trend or standard operating procedure that is SOE
The NGE to starwars, also the "combat upgrade" in MatrixOnline, EQ2 and again in Star Wars.
Lucas Arts didn't force them to do similar things to their other games, because that is just how SOE things games are made. Rush an incomplete product to market (SWG, EQ2, PS) and people will pay subscription fees while you work to fix it as they learned people will do in the original EQ.
Everything points to SOE being behind the wheel piloting this titanic straight at the iceburg just like they do to almost everything they touch. Lucas Arts was the just the co pilot saying FASTER! FASTER!
SOE programmed the NGE after Smed promised that the CU was "here to stay".
SOE sold an expansion knowing that in a couple weeks items in the expansion would be useless
SOE accepted quarterly and yearly account renewals knowing that the game was going to be fundamentally altered.
SOE was stringing classes along with promises of revamps right up until the NGE was announced (ranger revamp anyone?).
Like we've said over and over again: LucasArts isn't innocent in the whole deal but SOE is actually responsible for the mess that has become of the game.
First of all no one is defending SOE, they've done some crappy stuff, although for everything mentioned I can name another company that's done the same thing, or worse (including Blizzard, and CCP). I LIKED SWG the way it was. If LucasArts didn't force the change I'd still be playing it. If you hated from the beginning then I'm not really talking to you.
Second, riiiiight because LucasArts has such a long history of producing great games right? How exactly has SOE screwed up Vanguard? If you honestly think Brad McQuaid WASN'T responsible for the incredible mess that game is you must be illiterate. His own employees blame him. How did SOE screw up EQ2? Everyone else says it has improved (there's also talk that Vanguard has VASTLY improved since SOE took over).
"LA WASN'T THE ONE WHO PROGRAMMED THE PATHETIC MESS NGE WAS/IS"
Absolute right, THEY'RE JUST THE ONES WHO APPROVED IT AND SAID IT WAS GOOD TO GO! Anyone who doesn't see that is a mindless SOE basher who likes to follow the "in" crowd instead of thinking for themselves (see two can play that game).
"They both suck but SOE is the one that sucks the most in this matter."
I can almost agree with this comment, but I think the guy in charge is more to blame, which was of course LucasArts.
The NGE to starwars, also the "combat upgrade" in MatrixOnline, EQ2 and again in Star Wars."
Okay now let's analyze that: Are you honestly saying that MxO was better off BEFORE? Please, SOE had NOTHING to do with the ridiculous state of that game and by all accounts has vastly improved it. The same thing holds true for EQ2. Sure they changed the game quite a bit from release, and again, by all accounts the game has been vastly improved. That brings us to SWG. They tried the same thing and it failed miserably. SOE is the same company that was able to make both MxO and EQ2 better, so what's different about SWG? Yep LucasArts.
And since we want to take a look at the past and apply it to the present: Take a look at how many companies have said they will never work for LucasArts again. Take a look at how many LucasArts products have absolutely flopped. If all we did is look at the past to see who's tanked more, LucasArts wins by a landslide.
Ok i think it is important to note here that LA did approve the final draft of the NGE but it is not like they really had any clue what is going on. All LA prob did was say ok your not going to kill Skywalker and the players can't be the emperor right? After that they trusted SOE with everything else.
I use to sub to Star Wars insider magazine and remember seeing letters in one about the NGE. LA's response was that of shock stating that they had recieved numerous letters that month about the state of SWG and were in talks with SOE about what were going on.
Then they answered another letter a few issues later that sounded like Smedly was answerign it himself. It said that SOE did what was in best intrest for the game and the community blah blah blah.
Personally i find it hard to blame LA for SWG's death but it kinda disapoints me. LA would of gained so much credit if they had stood up for us.
Second, riiiiight because LucasArts has such a long history of producing great games right? How exactly has SOE screwed up Vanguard? If you honestly think Brad McQuaid WASN'T responsible for the incredible mess that game is you must be illiterate. His own employees blame him. How did SOE screw up EQ2? Everyone else says it has improved (there's also talk that Vanguard has VASTLY improved since SOE took over).
Okay now let's analyze that: Are you honestly saying that MxO was better off BEFORE? Please, SOE had NOTHING to do with the ridiculous state of that game and by all accounts has vastly improved it. The same thing holds true for EQ2. Sure they changed the game quite a bit from release, and again, by all accounts the game has been vastly improved. That brings us to SWG. They tried the same thing and it failed miserably. SOE is the same company that was able to make both MxO and EQ2 better, so what's different about SWG? Yep LucasArts.
And my proof to invalidate your points are that each one of the SOE games has 10 million subscribers? No? How about each game has 1 million subscribers? No? Maybe each game has 200k subscribers? No? Well you should see my point.
SOE is responsible for most of the crap they do to their games. Just because they "takeover" Vanguard by paying off Microsoft and push the product out way before it was ready because they needed to make a profit, yup all Brad's fault, gotya!
And then when SOE fixes a few bugs from over two years ago, like EQ and now EQ2, we should herald them as gods of the MMO community.
As well I am sure the releasing an expansion after the NGE that did not work was all Lucas fault also.
Am I a Sony hater, you bet, but at least I have reason to be. Those that are Sony fanboi's only hold on to some disillusion that this vampire of a corporation cares for you when in the subconscious they really need to defend the years they have spent playing a game that has been a total waste of time.
The sad fact of the matter is SOE is sitting on a gold mine of unique games, with the concept of station pass, and the availability of variety and difference that one person could have a lot of fun with the selection alone,.................that is if SOE didn't virtually screw up each and every one of their games, disillusion most of the gaming society, and lately focus their marketing to Eastern markets (which is probably best).
Originally posted by Jodokai Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Jodokai
Originally posted by Obee
Yay! Another fanboi shill posts the old "It wasn't SOE, even though they admitted it was their idea and convinced LEC to agree to it, it was all LEC!" lie for the thousandth time! Another thousand or so times and you might even start to believe it yourself!
And of course you have links to this admission? Oh that's right we don't provide proof on these forums, because then we might actually have to know what we were talking about before we opened our mouths.
To the OP: Give it up man. No one here wants to admit that George Lucas is anything but the second coming of Christ. It doesn't matter how much you show them that proves he's the biggest turd muncher to walk the planet, it doesn't matter how many times LucasArts screws over the developers and screws things up, they just don't want to see it. SOE is satan and LA is goodly and pure. I used to argue the same thing. My favorite line from those days: "The only proof you have is the credits in the book!" as if the credits in the book were somehow forged or not really proof. Just goes to show you the mentality.
Actually, lots of evidence for this has been provided on these forums, but one key piece came from Brenlo (head of SWG communications) on the SWG forums when he said, in the midst of just this very argument on those forums.: "So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, To try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed. We can, and I am sure manyof us will, debate for years on end whether this was agood idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different. Where did we go wrong? delivery, we failed in our timing and communication> That is where we let you down the most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize." Note that at the time Brenlo STILL thinks the NGE was a good idea. The Jeff mentioned is Jeff Freeman, who, along with the design team, came up with and pushed for the clicky combat system part of the NGE. Now, is this proof? I submit it is better evidence than anything the "it came from LA" crowd can muster up. Well let me see if I can "muster" some up for you then: LucasArts was the PRODUCER of the game. A quick look at what a game producer does, and you'll find out basically the producer is in charge of the game. Now let's analyze the statement that you are offering as your proof: "So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. " Absolutely a true statement (obviously) but what exactly are they saying? All they're saying is that SOE, who is the DEVELOPER of the game DEVELOPED the NGE. Yikes, if you needed an actual quote to figure that out, I worry. What it doesn't say, however, is who prompted SOE to make the change. If you analyze the situation and you realize that LucasArts is the boss, it's really daft to think that SOE would radically change a game with no input from THEIR BOSS! I dunno doesn't make sense to me. Then consider how right after the NGE LucasArts became very active and vocal.Hmm LucasArts becomes more active, and the NGE comes out...? Ah but maybe I'm just reading too much into it eh? In other words, all evidence is with me, and your imagination is with you. Thanks for your input.
I can sort of understand why people would want to give LucasArts a pass for the NGE--I mean George Lucas created the Star Wars universe and everything.
What I really don't get are the people that defend SOE and try and put all of the blame on LA. What has SOE ever done for its players that it deserves that kind of blind devotion? Personally I think the only people who continually defend SOE are the people that like to go to forums, find the minority position and go with it just to be contrary. The kind of people that insist the sky is green just because everybody else says it's blue.
Originally posted by Jodokai First of all no one is defending SOE, they've done some crappy stuff, although for everything mentioned I can name another company that's done the same thing, or worse (including Blizzard, and CCP). I LIKED SWG the way it was. If LucasArts didn't force the change I'd still be playing it. If you hated from the beginning then I'm not really talking to you. Second, riiiiight because LucasArts has such a long history of producing great games right? How exactly has SOE screwed up Vanguard? If you honestly think Brad McQuaid WASN'T responsible for the incredible mess that game is you must be illiterate. His own employees blame him. How did SOE screw up EQ2? Everyone else says it has improved (there's also talk that Vanguard has VASTLY improved since SOE took over).
"LA WASN'T THE ONE WHO PROGRAMMED THE PATHETIC MESS NGE WAS/IS" Absolute right, THEY'RE JUST THE ONES WHO APPROVED IT AND SAID IT WAS GOOD TO GO! Anyone who doesn't see that is a mindless SOE basher who likes to follow the "in" crowd instead of thinking for themselves (see two can play that game). "They both suck but SOE is the one that sucks the most in this matter." I can almost agree with this comment, but I think the guy in charge is more to blame, which was of course LucasArts. The NGE to starwars, also the "combat upgrade" in MatrixOnline, EQ2 and again in Star Wars."Okay now let's analyze that: Are you honestly saying that MxO was better off BEFORE? Please, SOE had NOTHING to do with the ridiculous state of that game and by all accounts has vastly improved it. The same thing holds true for EQ2. Sure they changed the game quite a bit from release, and again, by all accounts the game has been vastly improved. That brings us to SWG. They tried the same thing and it failed miserably. SOE is the same company that was able to make both MxO and EQ2 better, so what's different about SWG? Yep LucasArts. And since we want to take a look at the past and apply it to the present: Take a look at how many companies have said they will never work for LucasArts again. Take a look at how many LucasArts products have absolutely flopped. If all we did is look at the past to see who's tanked more, LucasArts wins by a landslide.
Sorry, I know people who still won't play an SOE game because of how they changed EQ1; YOU may claim that SOE "made their games better," BUt many others claim that they changed their games on people in ways they did not like.
There is now a movement on the Vanguard forums for classic servers.
The fact is, all admissions, all evidence, and everything shows us that both are partially responsible, but the lion's share goes to SOE.
The game was never successful because SOE mismanaged the game pre-launch, blew their deadlines. Then LA forced them to HONOR THEIR contract, and release the game before it was ready -- but the game wasn't ready because SOE was late.
next, they never fixed what was wrong; designed and implemented the CU (which Greenmarine LEFT SOE over and blamed SOE).
Next we have the game still failing and WoW blowing everyone away. LEC turns to SOE and says how did you screw this up so badly? Fix it!
SOE clamis they know what they were doing and comes up the NGE. LA, who has no idea about MMOs approves of it, TRUSTS SOE, and SOE messes up the NGE.
yeah, it's all LA's fault.
Sorry that dog don't hunt at all. LA trusted SOE, and yeah that was their fault. So did we all, so in that sense it was our fault too (which is just how SOE spins it).
Sorry, I know people who still won't play an SOE game because of how they changed EQ1; YOU may claim that SOE "made their games better," BUt many others claim that they changed their games on people in ways they did not like.
I am one of those too, and it is really sad, that some of my best gaming memories are couples with some of my worse gaming nightmares. And SOE really didn't play a part in the "best" but they sure did the "worse".
Best gaming potential
Best gaming selections
Best ideas on pen and paper
Worse maintainence
Worse customer service
Worse delivery as promised
Worse bugs in any game (well maybe some coming out of china but generally those are even more bug free)
I didn't know this before, but after talking to some people who went to the latest fan fest, I was told that it was actually Lucas Arts that pushed through the CU and NGE. SOE employees can't talk about it because of confidentiality agreements and clauses, but through not saying certain things, and reading between the lines, its pretty obvious what happened. Basically, some brain trust at Lucas Arts saw WoW and said "ZOMG! Why isn't SWG making as much money! Change it! Change it all!" Obviously Lucas Arts controls their Intellectual Property with an iron first, so whatever they say goes. LA knows nothing about mmo's but still forced soe to go ahead and make the changes. This isn't the first time this has happened either. LA has a long standing history of pissing off its business partners by pulling stupid stunts like this. Just look at KOTOR 1 and 2. Apparently LA is widely mistrusted by the industry but if you want the IP, you gotta play by their rules. Literally nothing can change in SWG unless the devs get LA's stamp of approval. Now don't get me wrong, I still hate soe for its terrible customer service, lying to the community, etc, but what really caught my attention here is that the devs are on our side. Truthfully they want for the game the same things we do. They loved the game they created pre-CU and hated implementing the changes. Hence, why so many people left. They were literally destroying their own work of art. Anyways, LA claims to have learned their lesson, although they'll never admit any of this publicly. They want to keep an "untarnished" reputation with consumers and let soe take the blame. The point is further whining, crying and flaming of SWG isn't going to make things better or worse. The game is not going to be shut down. Its still too profitable for LA and SOE. LA will keep the game running as it wants a MMO for its IP. What can change is LA is finally listening to the devs and players. The future direction of the game is literally in the players hands - which makes sense. LA has learned that if they want to make money, they should give the customers what they want (what a novel idea). NOT what LA thinks the customers want. See the difference? My point is this: unhappy with SWG? Fine, tell them what you want. You can be part of the solution or part of the cry babies who just can't let the CU and NGE go. Whether they admit it or not though, no one listens to the cry babies anymore (except themselves). Everyone knows the "upgrades" were a colossal error. People who keep crying just look like sad individuals with nothing else going on in their lives.
There's so much disinformation and manipulation in this post it's hard to know where to begin. Let's start with the old familiar SOE confession:
"So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, to try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed.
We can, and I am sure many of us will, debate for years on end whether this was a good idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different. Where did we go wrong? Delivery, we failed in our timing and communication. That is where we let you down most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize.
Brenlo Bixiebopper
Director, Global Community Relations - SOE"
O.k. now that we got that out of the way. Asking SOE to fix longstanding bugs like instances kicking group members, group waypoint arrows showing the wrong direction and distance, npc's spawning in trees and collision detection not working isn't being a crybaby, despite your attempt at manipulation via name-calling. It's asking SOE to provide a quality service for the premium subscription fee they charge. In my view, it's also being "part of the solution" as you say, in that the game is virtually empty, partly because it's in many ways still seriously broken.
It also doesn't help matters that SOE promised to fix some of these issues a year and a half ago. It further doesn't help matters that Smedley promised players at face to face meeting (that's Smedley of SOE, not LA, fyi) that he was going to fast-track server mergers to address the population issue. That was about a year ago now.
SOE continues to invite veteran players to return, but they still haven't fixed the bugs they said they would long ago, and they still refuse to entertain the notion of classic servers. These are ongoing problems with the game, and SOE's delivery of the service. You can call people crybabies and accuse them of having no life all you want; that won't change the facts I've just stated. Evidence of SOE's repeated mismanagement of this game, poor implementation and customer service abounds.
If LA told SOE to make the game more successful, I don't blame them. The NGE "solution" was SOE's brain child by their own admission. We're way beyond passing the buck at this stage. If LA is culpable for anything in my view, it's allowing SOE to mishandle the game from day one, and then allowing them to try to fix their own mistakes with the nightmare that is the NGE. I continue to wonder why LA allows the game to be run in the state it's in, and hope for a new StarWars MMO from a more reputable service provider in the future.
Yes I have tons of proof LA was responsible for QA. If you look at the game credits you'll see Lead QA "some guys name" LucasArts. Now I've been told in the past that somehow that isn't proof, you decide. And I never said SOLELY responsible, I just said in charge of, as in Lead QA worked for LucasArts. LucasArts said change the game, SOE did. If LucasArts didn't tell them to change the game, we'd still have the game I loved. Whether what the game changed into was good or bad is irrelevant, if LucasArts didn't push for the change to being with, it wouldn't have happened at all.
You can read my longer post above if you like, but in essence your logic is badly flawed.
Telling SOE to change the game did not in any way "cause" them to delete more than 20 professions that people had mastered. It did not cause SOE to remove years worth of quest progress, lock people's pets up, make crafters useless etc. LA also did not cause SOE to implement new combat specials that didn't work, or heals that healed enemies. LA also did not cause SOE to implement a new chat system that rendered everyone playing the game unable to move or chat. We had to send mails to each other to try to figure out a work around. It was the players that figured out a work around too, not the devs, until the devs could correct the huge issue in a more permanent way.
LA also didn't cause SOE to give people the respec "gift" that erased all of their levels when they used it. SOE's initial response to this what that they couldn't correct it. After enough screaming took place, they eventually did.
LA may have told SOE to change the game. SOE decided to change it by introducing the NGE. The NGE destroyed it.
If that doesn't make sense to you, maybe an analogy will help. If someone asks me to move their car because it's blocking a driveway, and I call a tow truck and have it hauled away and crushed, who caused the car to be destroyed? If you say the guy who asked me to move it, there's no hope for you.
If you give me a copy of memo from LA to SOE that says, blow up the game, delete professions, remove all player progress, lock up their pets, make crafting useless, make sure the players can't move or chat, I'll agree with you, and apologize for my comments today. I suppose LA would also have to say, by the way, please make sure that serious bugs introduced with the CU and the NGE are still in the game as of 2008; oh yes, and don't fix broken things from before those changes either. Even better, promise them server mergers, and then don't deliver. While I"m on a roll, LA would also have to tell SOE to ask players for feedback re the NGE, and then move, delete and lock their posts, and ban people for posting the requested feedback. Yeah, if I see that memo, you'll have me convinced.
Yes I have tons of proof LA was responsible for QA. If you look at the game credits you'll see Lead QA "some guys name" LucasArts. Now I've been told in the past that somehow that isn't proof, you decide. And I never said SOLELY responsible, I just said in charge of, as in Lead QA worked for LucasArts. LucasArts said change the game, SOE did. If LucasArts didn't tell them to change the game, we'd still have the game I loved. Whether what the game changed into was good or bad is irrelevant, if LucasArts didn't push for the change to being with, it wouldn't have happened at all.
You can read my longer post above if you like, but in essence your logic is badly flawed.
Telling SOE to change the game did not in any way "cause" them to delete more than 20 professions that people had mastered. It did not cause SOE to remove years worth of quest progress, lock people's pets up, make crafters useless etc. LA also did not cause SOE to implement new combat specials that didn't work, or heals that healed enemies. LA also did not cause SOE to implement a new chat system that rendered everyone playing the game unable to move or chat. We had to send mails to each other to try to figure out a work around. It was the players that figured out a work around too, not the devs, until the devs could correct the huge issue in a more permanent way.
LA also didn't cause SOE to give people the respec "gift" that erased all of their levels when they used it. SOE's initial response to this what that they couldn't correct it. After enough screaming took place, they eventually did.
LA may have told SOE to change the game. SOE decided to change it by introducing the NGE. The NGE destroyed it.
If that doesn't make sense to you, maybe an analogy will help. If someone asks me to move their car because it's blocking a driveway, and I call a tow truck and have it hauled away and crushed, who caused the car to be destroyed? If you say the guy who asked me to move it, there's no hope for you.
If you give me a copy of memo from LA to SOE that says, blow up the game, delete professions, remove all player progress, lock up their pets, make crafting useless, make sure the players can't move or chat, I'll agree with you, and apologize for my comments today. I suppose LA would also have to say, by the way, please make sure that serious bugs introduced with the CU and the NGE are still in the game as of 2008; oh yes, and don't fix broken things from before those changes either. Even better, promise them server mergers, and then don't deliver. While I"m on a roll, LA would also have to tell SOE to ask players for feedback re the NGE, and then move, delete and lock their posts, and ban people for posting the requested feedback. Yeah, if I see that memo, you'll have me convinced.
Before I get to the quoted post I just want to say AGAIN, I absolutely agree that SOE takes some of the blame for the NGE. I am in NO WAY an SOE fanfoi. I hate them just as much as everyone else. The difference is, I hate them for the right reasons. I don't blindly bash them because it's the "cool" thing to do on internet forums. I also know first hand what a scumbag George Lucas is in particular, and am in no way blinded because he wrote (copied) a good story, in an interesting setting.
Now, someone mentioned that because SOE doesn't 'have over 200k subs in ALL their games they must be a failure. Contrast to that they have the most successful MMO to ever exist. No MMO that has been out as long as EQ has as many subs.
Finally to the quoted post: As I've said previously, I absolutely agree with you. SOE coded it, but their boss pushed for, and approved the change. In my mind, the boss ALWAYS assumes more of the blame. Their the ones that could have vetoed the NGE from the start. If they had simply said NO, the NGE never would be.
Now someone else said something that really made me giggle. They mentioned that LucasArts was the "good guy" for holding SOE to their contract and making them release the game on time, and not holding off until it was ready, and yet SOE gets labeled the anti-Christ for doing the EXACT SAME THING to Sigil. I love the hypocracy.
Now I'll close this post the same way I began it (not that I really think anyone will read it but at least I can say I said it) I am NOT an SOE fan, I just don't think they're worse than any other company out there. I mean name an MMO company out there and I can blast them just as easily as I can SOE.
Now I'll close this post the same way I began it (not that I really think anyone will read it but at least I can say I said it) I am NOT an SOE fan, I just don't think they're worse than any other company out there. I mean name an MMO company out there and I can blast them just as easily as I can SOE.
Some people just don't get it and then misquote the quotes.
Just about every Western Hemisphere MMO company is succeeding where SOE fails, and a few Eastern Hemisphere based companies.
You really need to invest some real time in a SOE game and watch how they patch, bug, nerf, and out rightly change everything you worked on. Basically sucked everything you enjoyed in the game right out. Then after a couple years of that crap you may sing another tune. If you have played an SOE game for a couple years and still swear you "understand" how they do business, then switch to competitor or two and play until after their first big patch. It will be like Jesus came to you and smiled down from the heavens when you realize that other MMO's actually work as promised.
Comments
They NEVER fixed that, which is one more reason why it failed epically with the NGE.
Plus. ALL evidence from statements of the participants show that all ideas and implementations came from SOE, NOT LA.
i am sorry but pre-CU was not a 'broken piece of garbage'. It did suffer very badly from severe bugs, unbalanced professions and a total lack of marketing - but it was playable and, even in its poor state, most veterans would agree it was still superior to most other MMORPGs out there now. I personally believe that if SOE had invested the resources it ploughed into the bugged and limited Kash and Mustaphar expansions into fixing the game, balancing it and marketing it, then SWG would currently have a million subscribers and, as they added more planets, one every six months say and new features to the space game, subscriptions would have risen incrementally. But they didn't. Those cretins.
Sorry, it was the coolest game ever made, but it was still a broken piece of garbage. Those are not mutually exclusive things. Had it not been it would probably be the number two game on the market now.
I could go on with a list of bugs (but none really affected me except one) like disappearing items which usually came back on a relog, server boundries causing odd behavior on structures, lightsaber stuffing, double slicing, repeative exceptional/legendary loot exploit, rubberbanding, such and such and not surprisingly over half those STILL exists in the NGE. But the pre-CU gameplay and character development was supirior to what we see in most MMOs today, plain and simple.
Exactly. What a different (virtual) world we'de be in had they just fixed what was broken instead of destroying all that was good. I certainly wouln't be on these boards.
Fixng by removal fixed nothing, just made matters worse.
fishermage.blogspot.com
um.....you should do a little more "research" on ol' Uncle Walt. Saying he never did anything for the money is like saying SOE has only the best interest of their customers at heart.
Some comments from the lastest bio on Walt with the first time release of all family archives on sweet Mr. Disney
"He testified enthusiastically before the House UnAmerican Activities Committee and detailed what he saw as communist plots to take over Hollywood. He branded some former animators communists, said the Screen Actors Guild was a communist front and labelled a 1941 strike that hit his studio a communist plot. He even contacted the FBI about alleged communist infiltration."
(It is said that was is how he controlled his competition.)
"When his cartoonists tried to form a union, he brought in armed guards. He fired organisers, cut wages and slashed the opening hours of the studio coffee shop. At one point, faced with a strike picket, Disney had to be physically restrained from attacking the leader of the industrial action"
"He also associated with a group of anti-semitic members of the Motion Picture Alliance and frowned on the idea of hiring black people to work in Disneyland."
"Disney refused to cut short a business trip when his father died and missed his funeral."
Disney made some nice cartoons and introduced the world to "Modern Theme Parks" but he was a cruel, reclusive, abusive, individual in real life.
Some of the same things can be said about the industry today though too. There are no developers, artist, animator unions out there in the gaming industry. Many devs are forced to work unrelenting, unpaid overtime as salaried employees, as deadlines get ever tighter and less money is funneled into projects. Alot of developers at every company are fired after the game is done or released. This happens over and over again.
Walt Disney may have been no angel, and in no way am I defending his actions, but the current industry is run very similarly in many, many ways.
And yes, I do boycott the products of both companies, though only in regards to computer games.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
To the OP:
Give it up man. No one here wants to admit that George Lucas is anything but the second coming of Christ. It doesn't matter how much you show them that proves he's the biggest turd muncher to walk the planet, it doesn't matter how many times LucasArts screws over the developers and screws things up, they just don't want to see it. SOE is satan and LA is goodly and pure. I used to argue the same thing. My favorite line from those days: "The only proof you have is the credits in the book!" as if the credits in the book were somehow forged or not really proof. Just goes to show you the mentality.
Actually, lots of evidence for this has been provided on these forums, but one key piece came from Brenlo (head of SWG communications) on the SWG forums when he said, in the midst of just this very argument on those forums.:
"So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, To try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed.
We can, and I am sure manyof us will, debate for years on end whether this was agood idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different.
Where did we go wrong? delivery, we failed in our timing and communication> That is where we let you down the most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize."
Note that at the time Brenlo STILL thinks the NGE was a good idea.
The Jeff mentioned is Jeff Freeman, who, along with the design team, came up with and pushed for the clicky combat system part of the NGE.
Now, is this proof? I submit it is better evidence than anything the "it came from LA" crowd can muster up.
Well let me see if I can "muster" some up for you then:LucasArts was the PRODUCER of the game. A quick look at what a game producer does, and you'll find out basically the producer is in charge of the game.
Now let's analyze the statement that you are offering as your proof:
"So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. "
Absolutely a true statement (obviously) but what exactly are they saying? All they're saying is that SOE, who is the DEVELOPER of the game DEVELOPED the NGE. Yikes, if you needed an actual quote to figure that out, I worry. What it doesn't say, however, is who prompted SOE to make the change. If you analyze the situation and you realize that LucasArts is the boss, it's really daft to think that SOE would radically change a game with no input from THEIR BOSS! I dunno doesn't make sense to me. Then consider how right after the NGE LucasArts became very active and vocal.Hmm LucasArts becomes more active, and the NGE comes out...? Ah but maybe I'm just reading too much into it eh?
Once again, SOE made that call. had they copied what was good about WoW (it actually WORKS and is not a broken piece of crap -- they have real quality control over there), SWG would have stellar figures. Instead, they added ONE quest line, copied levels, copied classes, not realizing those things are NOT why WoW succeeds.
You can't copy someone who already spends more money than you by cutting the budget. Dumb.
Oh and since you mention QA, guess who was in charge of that at least up until the NGE (Not sure now I don't follow the game anymore): Yep LucasArts (you can check the game credits if you don't believe me). You sure you want to stay on the "LucasArts is all that is good and holy" kick?
Once again, SOE made that call. had they copied what was good about WoW (it actually WORKS and is not a broken piece of crap -- they have real quality control over there), SWG would have stellar figures. Instead, they added ONE quest line, copied levels, copied classes, not realizing those things are NOT why WoW succeeds.
You can't copy someone who already spends more money than you by cutting the budget. Dumb.
Oh and since you mention QA, guess who was in charge of that at least up until the NGE (Not sure now I don't follow the game anymore): Yep LucasArts (you can check the game credits if you don't believe me). You sure you want to stay on the "LucasArts is all that is good and holy" kick?
Do you have any proof that LA was solely responsible for QA? I seriously doubt it.Like others have said--what probably happened is that LA told SOE to do "something" to get subs up. SOE came up with the NGE (as Jeff Freeman has already admitted) and sold it to LA as the salvation of SWG. Both companies share the blame but SOE was responsible.
Yes I have tons of proof LA was responsible for QA. If you look at the game credits you'll see Lead QA "some guys name" LucasArts. Now I've been told in the past that somehow that isn't proof, you decide. And I never said SOLELY responsible, I just said in charge of, as in Lead QA worked for LucasArts.
LucasArts said change the game, SOE did. If LucasArts didn't tell them to change the game, we'd still have the game I loved. Whether what the game changed into was good or bad is irrelevant, if LucasArts didn't push for the change to being with, it wouldn't have happened at all.
Get one of the manuals
Under the credits for SOE you will see
Vice President of CS & QA
QA Director
QA Manager
Lead QA
Of course SOE hasn't screwed up any other game it has touched. MO, EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, and even PoBS, of course the fanbois will point out things like "they were only the publisher" or "it was Brad's fault!!"
Because this is not the only time SOE has exhibited this behavior towards a game it owns, published, or buys out; (granted SWQ was hit the worse IMHO), we can safely blame LA.
Personally I believe threads like this are damage control, usually started or at least supported by SOE employees, and we have seen that in the past also.
LA wanted results. SOE had been stagnating the game for quite some time and LA wanted a change.
SOE dropped the ball bigtime. LA WASN'T THE ONE WHO PROGRAMMED THE PATHETIC MESS NGE WAS/IS
Anyone who defends SOE is totally nieve or an employee of SOE.
SOE lied MANY times to their player base even before NGE.
Anyone who would still defend this company that has no concern with how they treat their paying customers is beyond me.
Wanting results is no way to blame for SOE's pathetic display of terrible programming
SHOHADAKU
It was SOE that wrote the code for this piece of crap not Lucast Arts. They both suck but SOE is the one that sucks the most in this matter.
Tecmo Bowl.
I wouldn't disagree with the assumption that Lucas Arts got tired of the downward spiral of the game and said do something. Maybe it didn't happen, but I can also see that as a likely outcome.
You have read that Jeff Freeman blogged about coming up with the idea of the NGE and his team CAMPAIGNING to get it passed. That alone eliminates the speculation the Lucas Arts forced this on SOE.
Then you could look at the trend or standard operating procedure that is SOE
The NGE to starwars, also the "combat upgrade" in MatrixOnline, EQ2 and again in Star Wars.
Lucas Arts didn't force them to do similar things to their other games, because that is just how SOE things games are made. Rush an incomplete product to market (SWG, EQ2, PS) and people will pay subscription fees while you work to fix it as they learned people will do in the original EQ.
Everything points to SOE being behind the wheel piloting this titanic straight at the iceburg just like they do to almost everything they touch. Lucas Arts was the just the co pilot saying FASTER! FASTER!
SOE programmed the NGE after Smed promised that the CU was "here to stay".
SOE sold an expansion knowing that in a couple weeks items in the expansion would be useless
SOE accepted quarterly and yearly account renewals knowing that the game was going to be fundamentally altered.
SOE was stringing classes along with promises of revamps right up until the NGE was announced (ranger revamp anyone?).
Like we've said over and over again: LucasArts isn't innocent in the whole deal but SOE is actually responsible for the mess that has become of the game.
First of all no one is defending SOE, they've done some crappy stuff, although for everything mentioned I can name another company that's done the same thing, or worse (including Blizzard, and CCP). I LIKED SWG the way it was. If LucasArts didn't force the change I'd still be playing it. If you hated from the beginning then I'm not really talking to you.
Second, riiiiight because LucasArts has such a long history of producing great games right? How exactly has SOE screwed up Vanguard? If you honestly think Brad McQuaid WASN'T responsible for the incredible mess that game is you must be illiterate. His own employees blame him. How did SOE screw up EQ2? Everyone else says it has improved (there's also talk that Vanguard has VASTLY improved since SOE took over).
"LA WASN'T THE ONE WHO PROGRAMMED THE PATHETIC MESS NGE WAS/IS"
Absolute right, THEY'RE JUST THE ONES WHO APPROVED IT AND SAID IT WAS GOOD TO GO! Anyone who doesn't see that is a mindless SOE basher who likes to follow the "in" crowd instead of thinking for themselves (see two can play that game).
"They both suck but SOE is the one that sucks the most in this matter."
I can almost agree with this comment, but I think the guy in charge is more to blame, which was of course LucasArts.
The NGE to starwars, also the "combat upgrade" in MatrixOnline, EQ2 and again in Star Wars."
Okay now let's analyze that: Are you honestly saying that MxO was better off BEFORE? Please, SOE had NOTHING to do with the ridiculous state of that game and by all accounts has vastly improved it. The same thing holds true for EQ2. Sure they changed the game quite a bit from release, and again, by all accounts the game has been vastly improved. That brings us to SWG. They tried the same thing and it failed miserably. SOE is the same company that was able to make both MxO and EQ2 better, so what's different about SWG? Yep LucasArts.
And since we want to take a look at the past and apply it to the present: Take a look at how many companies have said they will never work for LucasArts again. Take a look at how many LucasArts products have absolutely flopped. If all we did is look at the past to see who's tanked more, LucasArts wins by a landslide.
Ok i think it is important to note here that LA did approve the final draft of the NGE but it is not like they really had any clue what is going on. All LA prob did was say ok your not going to kill Skywalker and the players can't be the emperor right? After that they trusted SOE with everything else.
I use to sub to Star Wars insider magazine and remember seeing letters in one about the NGE. LA's response was that of shock stating that they had recieved numerous letters that month about the state of SWG and were in talks with SOE about what were going on.
Then they answered another letter a few issues later that sounded like Smedly was answerign it himself. It said that SOE did what was in best intrest for the game and the community blah blah blah.
Personally i find it hard to blame LA for SWG's death but it kinda disapoints me. LA would of gained so much credit if they had stood up for us.
And my proof to invalidate your points are that each one of the SOE games has 10 million subscribers? No? How about each game has 1 million subscribers? No? Maybe each game has 200k subscribers? No? Well you should see my point.
SOE is responsible for most of the crap they do to their games. Just because they "takeover" Vanguard by paying off Microsoft and push the product out way before it was ready because they needed to make a profit, yup all Brad's fault, gotya!
And then when SOE fixes a few bugs from over two years ago, like EQ and now EQ2, we should herald them as gods of the MMO community.
As well I am sure the releasing an expansion after the NGE that did not work was all Lucas fault also.
Am I a Sony hater, you bet, but at least I have reason to be. Those that are Sony fanboi's only hold on to some disillusion that this vampire of a corporation cares for you when in the subconscious they really need to defend the years they have spent playing a game that has been a total waste of time.
The sad fact of the matter is SOE is sitting on a gold mine of unique games, with the concept of station pass, and the availability of variety and difference that one person could have a lot of fun with the selection alone,.................that is if SOE didn't virtually screw up each and every one of their games, disillusion most of the gaming society, and lately focus their marketing to Eastern markets (which is probably best).
To the OP:
Give it up man. No one here wants to admit that George Lucas is anything but the second coming of Christ. It doesn't matter how much you show them that proves he's the biggest turd muncher to walk the planet, it doesn't matter how many times LucasArts screws over the developers and screws things up, they just don't want to see it. SOE is satan and LA is goodly and pure. I used to argue the same thing. My favorite line from those days: "The only proof you have is the credits in the book!" as if the credits in the book were somehow forged or not really proof. Just goes to show you the mentality.
Actually, lots of evidence for this has been provided on these forums, but one key piece came from Brenlo (head of SWG communications) on the SWG forums when he said, in the midst of just this very argument on those forums.:
"So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, To try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed.
We can, and I am sure manyof us will, debate for years on end whether this was agood idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different.
Where did we go wrong? delivery, we failed in our timing and communication> That is where we let you down the most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize."
Note that at the time Brenlo STILL thinks the NGE was a good idea.
The Jeff mentioned is Jeff Freeman, who, along with the design team, came up with and pushed for the clicky combat system part of the NGE.
Now, is this proof? I submit it is better evidence than anything the "it came from LA" crowd can muster up.
Well let me see if I can "muster" some up for you then:
LucasArts was the PRODUCER of the game. A quick look at what a game producer does, and you'll find out basically the producer is in charge of the game.
Now let's analyze the statement that you are offering as your proof:
"So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. "
Absolutely a true statement (obviously) but what exactly are they saying? All they're saying is that SOE, who is the DEVELOPER of the game DEVELOPED the NGE. Yikes, if you needed an actual quote to figure that out, I worry. What it doesn't say, however, is who prompted SOE to make the change. If you analyze the situation and you realize that LucasArts is the boss, it's really daft to think that SOE would radically change a game with no input from THEIR BOSS! I dunno doesn't make sense to me. Then consider how right after the NGE LucasArts became very active and vocal.Hmm LucasArts becomes more active, and the NGE comes out...? Ah but maybe I'm just reading too much into it eh?
In other words, all evidence is with me, and your imagination is with you. Thanks for your input.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I can sort of understand why people would want to give LucasArts a pass for the NGE--I mean George Lucas created the Star Wars universe and everything.
What I really don't get are the people that defend SOE and try and put all of the blame on LA. What has SOE ever done for its players that it deserves that kind of blind devotion? Personally I think the only people who continually defend SOE are the people that like to go to forums, find the minority position and go with it just to be contrary. The kind of people that insist the sky is green just because everybody else says it's blue.
There is now a movement on the Vanguard forums for classic servers.
The fact is, all admissions, all evidence, and everything shows us that both are partially responsible, but the lion's share goes to SOE.
The game was never successful because SOE mismanaged the game pre-launch, blew their deadlines. Then LA forced them to HONOR THEIR contract, and release the game before it was ready -- but the game wasn't ready because SOE was late.
next, they never fixed what was wrong; designed and implemented the CU (which Greenmarine LEFT SOE over and blamed SOE).
Next we have the game still failing and WoW blowing everyone away. LEC turns to SOE and says how did you screw this up so badly? Fix it!
SOE clamis they know what they were doing and comes up the NGE. LA, who has no idea about MMOs approves of it, TRUSTS SOE, and SOE messes up the NGE.
yeah, it's all LA's fault.
Sorry that dog don't hunt at all. LA trusted SOE, and yeah that was their fault. So did we all, so in that sense it was our fault too (which is just how SOE spins it).
fishermage.blogspot.com
I am one of those too, and it is really sad, that some of my best gaming memories are couples with some of my worse gaming nightmares. And SOE really didn't play a part in the "best" but they sure did the "worse".
Best gaming potential
Best gaming selections
Best ideas on pen and paper
Worse maintainence
Worse customer service
Worse delivery as promised
Worse bugs in any game (well maybe some coming out of china but generally those are even more bug free)
Worse business plan
Worse development after release
and the list goes on and on.
There's so much disinformation and manipulation in this post it's hard to know where to begin. Let's start with the old familiar SOE confession:
"So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, to try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed.
We can, and I am sure many of us will, debate for years on end whether this was a good idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different. Where did we go wrong? Delivery, we failed in our timing and communication. That is where we let you down most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize.
Brenlo Bixiebopper
Director, Global Community Relations - SOE"
O.k. now that we got that out of the way. Asking SOE to fix longstanding bugs like instances kicking group members, group waypoint arrows showing the wrong direction and distance, npc's spawning in trees and collision detection not working isn't being a crybaby, despite your attempt at manipulation via name-calling. It's asking SOE to provide a quality service for the premium subscription fee they charge. In my view, it's also being "part of the solution" as you say, in that the game is virtually empty, partly because it's in many ways still seriously broken.
It also doesn't help matters that SOE promised to fix some of these issues a year and a half ago. It further doesn't help matters that Smedley promised players at face to face meeting (that's Smedley of SOE, not LA, fyi) that he was going to fast-track server mergers to address the population issue. That was about a year ago now.
SOE continues to invite veteran players to return, but they still haven't fixed the bugs they said they would long ago, and they still refuse to entertain the notion of classic servers. These are ongoing problems with the game, and SOE's delivery of the service. You can call people crybabies and accuse them of having no life all you want; that won't change the facts I've just stated. Evidence of SOE's repeated mismanagement of this game, poor implementation and customer service abounds.
If LA told SOE to make the game more successful, I don't blame them. The NGE "solution" was SOE's brain child by their own admission. We're way beyond passing the buck at this stage. If LA is culpable for anything in my view, it's allowing SOE to mishandle the game from day one, and then allowing them to try to fix their own mistakes with the nightmare that is the NGE. I continue to wonder why LA allows the game to be run in the state it's in, and hope for a new StarWars MMO from a more reputable service provider in the future.
Telling SOE to change the game did not in any way "cause" them to delete more than 20 professions that people had mastered. It did not cause SOE to remove years worth of quest progress, lock people's pets up, make crafters useless etc. LA also did not cause SOE to implement new combat specials that didn't work, or heals that healed enemies. LA also did not cause SOE to implement a new chat system that rendered everyone playing the game unable to move or chat. We had to send mails to each other to try to figure out a work around. It was the players that figured out a work around too, not the devs, until the devs could correct the huge issue in a more permanent way.
LA also didn't cause SOE to give people the respec "gift" that erased all of their levels when they used it. SOE's initial response to this what that they couldn't correct it. After enough screaming took place, they eventually did.
LA may have told SOE to change the game. SOE decided to change it by introducing the NGE. The NGE destroyed it.
If that doesn't make sense to you, maybe an analogy will help. If someone asks me to move their car because it's blocking a driveway, and I call a tow truck and have it hauled away and crushed, who caused the car to be destroyed? If you say the guy who asked me to move it, there's no hope for you.
If you give me a copy of memo from LA to SOE that says, blow up the game, delete professions, remove all player progress, lock up their pets, make crafting useless, make sure the players can't move or chat, I'll agree with you, and apologize for my comments today. I suppose LA would also have to say, by the way, please make sure that serious bugs introduced with the CU and the NGE are still in the game as of 2008; oh yes, and don't fix broken things from before those changes either. Even better, promise them server mergers, and then don't deliver. While I"m on a roll, LA would also have to tell SOE to ask players for feedback re the NGE, and then move, delete and lock their posts, and ban people for posting the requested feedback. Yeah, if I see that memo, you'll have me convinced.
Telling SOE to change the game did not in any way "cause" them to delete more than 20 professions that people had mastered. It did not cause SOE to remove years worth of quest progress, lock people's pets up, make crafters useless etc. LA also did not cause SOE to implement new combat specials that didn't work, or heals that healed enemies. LA also did not cause SOE to implement a new chat system that rendered everyone playing the game unable to move or chat. We had to send mails to each other to try to figure out a work around. It was the players that figured out a work around too, not the devs, until the devs could correct the huge issue in a more permanent way.
LA also didn't cause SOE to give people the respec "gift" that erased all of their levels when they used it. SOE's initial response to this what that they couldn't correct it. After enough screaming took place, they eventually did.
LA may have told SOE to change the game. SOE decided to change it by introducing the NGE. The NGE destroyed it.
If that doesn't make sense to you, maybe an analogy will help. If someone asks me to move their car because it's blocking a driveway, and I call a tow truck and have it hauled away and crushed, who caused the car to be destroyed? If you say the guy who asked me to move it, there's no hope for you.
If you give me a copy of memo from LA to SOE that says, blow up the game, delete professions, remove all player progress, lock up their pets, make crafting useless, make sure the players can't move or chat, I'll agree with you, and apologize for my comments today. I suppose LA would also have to say, by the way, please make sure that serious bugs introduced with the CU and the NGE are still in the game as of 2008; oh yes, and don't fix broken things from before those changes either. Even better, promise them server mergers, and then don't deliver. While I"m on a roll, LA would also have to tell SOE to ask players for feedback re the NGE, and then move, delete and lock their posts, and ban people for posting the requested feedback. Yeah, if I see that memo, you'll have me convinced.
Before I get to the quoted post I just want to say AGAIN, I absolutely agree that SOE takes some of the blame for the NGE. I am in NO WAY an SOE fanfoi. I hate them just as much as everyone else. The difference is, I hate them for the right reasons. I don't blindly bash them because it's the "cool" thing to do on internet forums. I also know first hand what a scumbag George Lucas is in particular, and am in no way blinded because he wrote (copied) a good story, in an interesting setting.Now, someone mentioned that because SOE doesn't 'have over 200k subs in ALL their games they must be a failure. Contrast to that they have the most successful MMO to ever exist. No MMO that has been out as long as EQ has as many subs.
Finally to the quoted post: As I've said previously, I absolutely agree with you. SOE coded it, but their boss pushed for, and approved the change. In my mind, the boss ALWAYS assumes more of the blame. Their the ones that could have vetoed the NGE from the start. If they had simply said NO, the NGE never would be.
Now someone else said something that really made me giggle. They mentioned that LucasArts was the "good guy" for holding SOE to their contract and making them release the game on time, and not holding off until it was ready, and yet SOE gets labeled the anti-Christ for doing the EXACT SAME THING to Sigil. I love the hypocracy.
Now I'll close this post the same way I began it (not that I really think anyone will read it but at least I can say I said it) I am NOT an SOE fan, I just don't think they're worse than any other company out there. I mean name an MMO company out there and I can blast them just as easily as I can SOE.
Just about every Western Hemisphere MMO company is succeeding where SOE fails, and a few Eastern Hemisphere based companies.
You really need to invest some real time in a SOE game and watch how they patch, bug, nerf, and out rightly change everything you worked on. Basically sucked everything you enjoyed in the game right out. Then after a couple years of that crap you may sing another tune. If you have played an SOE game for a couple years and still swear you "understand" how they do business, then switch to competitor or two and play until after their first big patch. It will be like Jesus came to you and smiled down from the heavens when you realize that other MMO's actually work as promised.