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No legal action re. the NGE, means no wrong was done--untrue.
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
This is yet another damage control strategy aimed at discouraging exploited consumers from standing up for their rights: "No legal action to date means that SOE and LA did nothing wrong with the NGE."
Here's a better explanation for no legal action:
1. SOE provided refunds for the cost of the expansion to everyone they allegedly defrauded.
2. Game outlets provided people with game card refunds allowing them to recover their subscription fees.
3. SOE has a history of using face to face meetings and non-disclosure aggreements to perform damage control.
4. Some people believe that when you sign a waiver saying you have no rights as a consumer, that this waiver is actually valid. That is false, you can't give someone permission to defraud you. The law will not allow it.
5. The resources needed to address the wrongs done through legal channels are currently being invested in other areas. I know my resources have been tied up dealing with other legislative issues-- ones that relate to the safety of our children in our communities. Sorry to all those behind the NGE bait and switch, you frankly don't rate very high on my list of things to do, despite how disgusted I am by your apparent lack of ethics.
What I do with some time off at this point remains to be seen. I do encourage anyone that wants to see an end to corporate exploitation of MMO gamers to take action though. Don't wait for someone else to do it. Some of the people in the best position to act are in fact addressing issues that are even more compelling.
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{ Mod Edit }
Thats all' folks
Account has been stolen, why would someone want to steal my account?
As I mentioned above, you can't "click" to give a corporation permission to defraud you. You wish it worked that way, I understand that. When people begin to disregard the obvious attempts to divest them of their basic rights as citizens in a free market economy, SOE is going to have a lot to answer for, and you'll probably be out of a job.
This is a very new area of law, and hasn't been fully tested. First of all, it does not mean primarily that they may do as they please with the game, but more that they are not accountable for the actions of players within the virtual world. They are not responsible for say, obscenities used by customers, as long as reasonable measures are in place (filters and such). It really has little to do with breaking their word to their customers and changing the game in major ways.
Also, as a non-negotiated contract between parties, at best, it holds to a reasonable person standard. It is easily arguable that the NGE went beyond a reasonable person's expectations.
This needs to be tested over time; your personal interpretation of the document is hardly relevant.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Why some people act against their own intrests ?
I must assume you like to see empty servers and the sad state of the game or don't care anymore lol
so i have to thank you and i repeat :
People DON'T AGRRE TO $OE EULA !!!
stay AWAY from it ....
They change your gameplay without respect YOUR invenstments !
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
This is a very new area of law, and hasn't been fully tested. First of all, it does not mean primarily that they may do as they please with the game, but more that they are not accountable for the actions of players within the virtual world. They are not responsible for say, obscenities used by customers, as long as reasonable measures are in place (filters and such). It really has little to do with breaking their word to their customers and changing the game in major ways.
Also, as a non-negotiated contract between parties, at best, it holds to a reasonable person standard. It is easily arguable that the NGE went beyond a reasonable person's expectations.
This needs to be tested over time; your personal interpretation of the document is hardly relevant.
This is exactly right.
What would happen in a lawsuit would be that the industry accepted version of "reasonable game play changes" would be examined and argued. The NGE would then be argued as to be extreme and unreasonable according to the accepted standard practice.
Which I think would not be a very hard thing to prove given that the NGE was so extremist as to make the game not even resemble what was on your original box and in the manual. Indeed, about all the NGE left you with from Pre-CU as far as your character was your avatar appearance and name...
Add to this the complication that this was all developed in secret, whilst the Devs/producers were deliberately misleading us with public statements "The CU is here to stay", the profession revamp discussions, the expansion marketing, etc, AND while accepting prepayments for game time that would go past the 11/14/05 end date of the CU game.
Basically SOE and LEC don't have an effective counter argument. The only way they COULD have done what they did without committing fraud would have been had they disclosed what they were doing, that way we could have made an informed decision.
This also filters back to the "reasonable" argument: Would it be reasonable to assume that people who paid for prepaid time, bought the expansions, and continued CU gameplay (investing more time in our characters) had we been informed of the decision to develop the NGE, and to scrap CU and go with the NGE? Obviously not. We'd have mass canceled and quit the game months prior to the Torres producer letter, which was the first official announcement of the NGE, made less than two weeks before the NGE was to replace CU.
Factor in the fact that SOE and LEC's behavior regarding the expansion (announcing the NGE the day AFTER we were charged for it), regardless of later offers of refunds, definitely gives the appearance that their INTENT (another important thing with regard to a legal case) was to conceal the knowledge of the NGE from us until the last possible moment, knowing that they were discarding their whole existing player base, but wanting to wring every cent they could out of us.
With that determined, then SOE/LEC would be determined liable for defrauding us, not just for prepaid time, but for the time we continued to play CU after the NGE had started development, plus interest, PLUS the potential for punitive damages. Given that 254K*14.95=$3.8 million each month ALONE, times however many months the NGE was witheld from our knowledge, you are talking about what could be a LOT of money.
If this case could be put together (I'm not the one to do it), it's a sure fire loser for SOE and LEC. I am almost positive that others have attempted to sue them over the NGE, and that they've (as others have said) settled with people privately, probably with an agreement to not disclose any such settlement. The only way to do this is via class action, which would make every single SWG subscriber during the CU era a plantiff.
"If I had a penny for everytime a frustrated fanboi hits the report button, I could end world hunger."
And thats what should be done "take action" stop waisting words as words are meaningless if they remain just "words", if you truly believe in something take action, don't sit in a corner and speculate what could be done but do it. Not bashing you Arc cause you one of the few i still respect, just saying put the action where your keyboard is. I'm very intrested in how it would work out as you do make some very valid points. But the reason why i say "take action" is because most of your words have been said ever since 2005, and yet i have ot see some real action being taken by anyone. And with "ACTION" i mean the type of action you're talking about. Not just a refund here or there, but a legal action that will or can actuialy change the way how EULA's are set up.
And thats what should be done "take action" stop waisting words as words are meaningless if they remain just "words", if you truly believe in something take action, don't sit in a corner and speculate what could be done but do it. Not bashing you Arc cause you one of the few i still respect, just saying put the action where your keyboard is. I'm very intrested in how it would work out as you do make some very valid points. But the reason why i say "take action" is because most of your words have been said ever since 2005, and yet i have ot see some real action being taken by anyone. And with "ACTION" i mean the type of action you're talking about. Not just a refund here or there, but a legal action that will or can actuialy change the way how EULA's are set up.
Words are actions, and talk is expensive in this modern world of viral internet marketing. The idea that talk is cheap is sooooo last century.
fishermage.blogspot.com
this argument is sooo 2006
Not really. Not if you follow how it has changed the market, and how it has harmed every SOE game, and how it has started to change the way all MMO companies do business. It's part of tomorrow.
fishermage.blogspot.com
so then post this is every other forum which has made changes or alterations to a game, profession, skill, nerf etc.
Gameplay may change, regardless of what was done or how, things change and it cannot be legally attacked. They use this broad terminology for a reason. Gameplay can mean anything from adding/deleting a class/profession, skill changes, expansions, graphics engines, etc. Basically they are saying anything can change at any given moment.
That's a false argument. It's not about making changes to a game, but about making changes to a game beyond a reasonable person's expectations. that hasn't happened since the NGE, and everything that has come close, has been compared with the NGE, The NGE is now the standard and the rule of what NOT to do.
They may be "saying" they can change it at any moment; but they can't, and don't, thanksto the NGE and the viral marekting surrounding it.
fishermage.blogspot.com
No other MMO has ever changed in the way SWG has, to the point where it's unrecognizable as the game that was originally bought.
"If I had a penny for everytime a frustrated fanboi hits the report button, I could end world hunger."
Plus as I said above, SOE has had NO successes since they did this. This shows quite handily that consumers will not forget when you try and use a non-ngotiable contract past a reasonable person's expectations. The market is working without the courts help. The court of public opinion is sometimes far more powerful than any court of law.
Either way, all of this is very new, very cutting edge, and we'll all have to see how it all plays out in the future.
fishermage.blogspot.com
That's a false argument. It's not about making changes to a game, but about making changes to a game beyond a reasonable person's expectations. that hasn't happened since the NGE, and everything that has come close, has been compared with the NGE, The NGE is now the standard and the rule of what NOT to do.
They may be "saying" they can change it at any moment; but they can't, and don't, thanksto the NGE and the viral marekting surrounding it.
no where does it state a statute of limitations of how far a game can change. Every company which offers some sort of service puts in these clauses....even the federal government. If you have ever read an ASTM guideline manual, OSHA regulation, EPA limitations....they all contain similar language in regards to standards, testing, agreements.For example OSHA has a specific set of standards which all air monitoring must be done in. BUT, there is a statute within the clause that allows for changes in the standard due to testing and new technology, so that every few months these standards for indoor air quality testing does not need to be rewritten. Do i see OSHA being sued over the way this occurs or how many people are affected and or quality of said testing. No. There legal jargon within provides a nice loophole. So if a standard 10 years ago was approved by said regulatory company, but by todays standards it would be considered cancer causing....OSHA cannot be sued unless they are found guilty of INTENTIONAL harm.
No other MMO has ever changed in the way SWG has, to the point where it's unrecognizable as the game that was originally bought.
Plus as I said above, SOE has had NO successes since they did this. This shows quite handily that consumers will not forget when you try and use a non-ngotiable contract past a reasonable person's expectations. The market is working without the courts help. The court of public opinion is sometimes far more powerful than any court of law.
Either way, all of this is very new, very cutting edge, and we'll all have to see how it all plays out in the future.
SOE won't ever have another success either. The NGE sank them for good.
"If I had a penny for everytime a frustrated fanboi hits the report button, I could end world hunger."
EQ2 is a failure?
----------------------------
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
soe haters just need something to complain about. if the nge never happened i GUARANTEE you they would find something else to be hating
I argue that I wouldn't need to "find" anything at all. In the event that the NGE had never happened...I propose that SOE would have easily given me something else to hate them for, with haste. They're quite good at it. In fact...I've already got pages worth of material to hate them for disregarding the NGE right now. SOE are just tools, plain and simple. They regularly make choices which seem to ignore the very foundation of the market they are trying to bleed.
<Mod edit>
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
*shrugs* But there are many players who play EQ2 and never played SWG. Do you really think they'll be put off buying any new SOE MMO's because of the NGE? I seriously doubt it. I also imagine that as EQ2 seems to be fairly healthy that it continues to gain enough new subs despite whatever happend years ago in SWG (which, to be honest, only people who actually played SWG give a damn about). Which rather means SOE isn't reliant on ex-SWG players for future successes....
----------------------------
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
and for all this hate talk towards me and my view that legally SOE has not done anything wrong (morally is another question), not one of you can provide solid proof that it is illegal. Immoral maybe...but thats it. The sheer fact that you AGREED to the EULA which states "GAMEPLAY MAY CHANGE" void any argument that you could have against legal action. Would be like signing a contract with a painter who states "Color may change during painting" and he uses 15 colors instead of one.
Some questions :
1) Does EULA cover really NGE ? There is a thread here discussing just that and after actually reading that passage i doubt it. Be honest have you ever read the EULA ? I admit i never had , just clicked "agree" everytime...
2)The NGE changed game descriptions, manuals, controls included in the box. It would be thrilling to see how $OE stand in a court against that argue that $OE tried to plant a NEW product to their customers by hiding this fact (that is a new product) to keep the customers paying and believing its the game they always played just... "enhanced" ..but in really the customer buyed product is no more...
3) Suvroc already hinted, its possible that law suit already happend and ended in an out-of-court settlement (very likely that $OE would not like publicity here)
4)You really believe the painter in you example is covered by this "may change" passage ..i very doubt it ..and there are enough jugdes who would like to debate in court room about ..dunno with what result ..but idoubt it would be 100% pro painter...just consider that he "destroyed" property
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I do know for a fact there were queries from several states' AG offices over the NGE as it pertained to consumer fraud. It is possible these queries helped "convince" SOE to offer the refunds they at first seemed disinclined to provide.
Your point is valid in that no one can "prove" legallity because this situation has not yet been tested in court (as someone else pointed out). The courts would decide legality. I firmly believe SOE took steps necessary to ensure this case did not appear in court (i.e refunds, OOC settlements.) The last thing they - or the industry - would want is an unfavorable legal precedence. A general EULA does not give a company carte blanche. EULAs have proven to be very weak protection in court, though it is highly effective in convincing users (falslely) they don't have the right to object.
I've said before that gaming is relatively young and gamers are relatively young and naive (not meant as an insult). They generally do not understand their rights under consumer law. That will change as gamers mature and gain experience in other consumer interaction and begin to expect similiar service from their game provider. The gaming industry will have to treat their customers the same as most industries do - important to their very existance and not just cash machines. Standards and regulation will come - soon - either voluntarily or through legislation. There is too much money floating around for otherwise.
Let's be honest folks, any judge, at this point ( 2.5 years later) , is going to wonder why it took you so long to bring a class action lawsuit against SOE. Then the judge will look at or an SOE attorney will bring up the previous lawsuit involving UO, in which there were many similarities and does set a legal precedence. I'm not condoning anything SOE has done, nor am I trying to defend them, I'm just trying to be realistic here.
Also, my offer still stands, as I stated in the previous thread. If you folks seriously can find a real attorney that has a history of winning these cases and will accept the case, I will pay the retainer fee out of my own pocket. Just contact me via PM and I will send you my irl info and get the lawyers phone number, so I can know where to send the check.
MMO's are ever evolving for better or worse, it does say, when you log in that the game experience may change during online play. EVERY online game says that. if you can't accept it, then you don't need to be playing online games.
that one single line is enough to throw out any case against them, it doesn't have to be in the eula..
I have the original box sitting right in front of me, and on the FRONT COVER, it says in clear bold english
"Game Experience May Change During Online Play"
sorry if you don't like the way it turned out but it is their game not yours, no one forced you to buy it, no one forced you to continue playing it.
I mean seriously, how moronic can you be.