Motorcycle analogy fails. Raising skill by using skills is raising skills by using skills, no matter how you slice it, no matter whether you put it in a single player or multi player game. I'm not saying it's the worst system ever, but it's kinda lame IMO. It's for people that need everything to be literal.
Hard Days work.. think about that.. when a game becomes WORK.. you are doing it wrong. (unless you are a pro sports player.. in which case you are over paid anyways..)
Actually, humans enjoy working. Working to achieve a goal. Satisfaction of obtaining that goal, etc.
It's actually rather ironic for a few players. They will hate their jobs in real life, yet come home and play a game where they do the same (work) but enjoy it and have tons of fun- failing to realize they could have the same satisfaction, joy, and enjoyment in their regular job (well... as long as they dont work at McDonalds or under the care of the boss from Hell)
Human beings take pleasure, enjoyment, and fun out of working. Thats what you do in most games- you work.
What some people fail to realize is that not everyone hates their job or has a crappy job. Just because it is fun or enjoyable doesn't change the fact it's work.
I find it rather sad that some less fortunate people will harp and claim that if you have a nice boss, your job is enjoyable, or your boss is your good friend, and you dont have a boss from hell and a job that deals with hard labor and frustrating customers- it's not "real work" or a "real job".
I got a lot of enjoyment in UO, working hard killing monsters to earn enough gold to buy what I wanted, so I could kill more monsters and earn more gold to have in case I lose that armor. I worked so I could work. And I loved it.
Yep, another term for basically everything you just said is Labor of Love.
There's some sort of something out there that everyone loves to do, and while doing it, they may be working their ass off, but they are loving it while they are doing.
Examples: Sports players, when i wrestled I would puke from running and be so achy from practice i could barley move. But i loved it.
So if the work you put into this game is not worth the time and if you are easily able to be ganked w/out being able to easily get your gear or similar/on par gear back just as easily, this game will fail, and fail terribly.
Not even just this game though, any game with a FFA PvP game style will fail with out easily obtained items and gear.
So a person thats leveled/skilled up their character can easily obtain everything they had that they just lost.
Go from riches to poor to rich again.
If that is not able to happen, this game will be a complete niche market game.
ugh stop it with this small niche sh!t there is a gigantic HUNGER for a game with this type of game mechanic, how else can you explain the gigantic number of people who are registered in the official forums, how else can you explain the gigantic player created hype, how else can you explain hype in the face of the fact that the devs have HORRIBLE pr and do little to disprove that this game is vaporware?
If you don't like this concept, please go play ANY other mmo, as they are suited to your interests.
Anyway, its all about immersion and risk vs. reward. In most games there's no risk and theres very little reward. in DF if you're going alone and have leet gear on, you may not like the idea but you deserve to get looted, the risk in this case highly outweighs the rewards.
Trust between players actually matters now, playing smart (traveling in groups/ avoiding popular routes/using leet gear wisely) actually matters now, whether or not you win battles actually matters now.
also gear won't make or break a char like in WoW, unlike what many people think though, it WILL matter, it just won't be the ONLY thing that matters.
Thats ez to say that but hard to do that. Trust me you will be by your own people and the land is so big you will most likly not even see a enemy.
And looting you takes time its not the old magical way by clicking button there done looting. Most likly someone from your own kind will kill the people that killed you.
Build houses close to your people and not out by your own and you will be ok.
Yes i agree , but in this game you can block your attacks and your also able to run away and not die because this game is a aimming game, so this game is all skill.
I like the way Shadowbane does it. You have a tracking skill so you can see pkers on track before they get to you. this at least gives you some advance warning.
Yes i agree , but in this game you can block your attacks and your also able to run away and not die because this game is a aimming game, so this game is all skill.
If it's all player skill, then why would you need to raise your skills?
Is this the price we must pay to have the other end of the spectrum- freedom, fun, PvP, and the risk/reward and nostalgia of UO? I have never had as much fun and excitement as when I played UO pre-trammel... BUT... 1) I was young then. I had plenty of time to waste, and wasted time without caring. Now, although part of me wants to experience classic pre-trammel UO, the other (more mature and intellectual) part of me keeps thinking "Why pay $15 a month to work for 3 hours getting gold, only to lose all of it because a Gank Squad of 15 men come by and kill me mercilessly- giving me no chance at all to win or fight back. Where is the fun in time-sinks? Where is the fun in losing hours of hard work? Where is the fun in having a great time in PvE only to have it end in anger and frustration that I couldnt do anything about the fact 10 professional PK's came up and killed my group of 3 WHILE we were already half dead?" There is no fun, only frustration- in being ganked, PK'd, and looted. Especially when you have no chance of winning (already hurt by monster, overwhelming odds, etc.) There IS fun in freedom, open PvP, attack-anyone, UO-type world.
This example is a lot like playing DAoC towards the end of its life. The sides were so unbalanced in the Zerg vs Zerg vs Zerg, that all I could do is run an 8-man, roaming around searching for something to fight. This resulted in a waste of time, and the end of my DAoC career. I quickly realized, I wasnt really playing the game or having fun enough to constitute playing or paying. The gameplay consisted of working for 1 hour to get a full group going, roaming for 20 minutes only to find a) Find a solo, which would be a 8v1 fight, which is boring bc they have no chance
b) Find a 2-3 man group, which again is a 8v3 fight, which is over before it began and thus boring.
c) Find the Zerg, running into 3 full groups of 24v8, which is over before it began and thus boring.
d) Find nothing, roaming again for 20 minutes.
e) The rare 1% chance of running into another full group and having a fair, fun battle of 8v8 And thus repeat, roam 20, a-e, roam 20, a-e, roam 20. So when I reailzed I had been playing for 4 hours, but actually only got to play for about 10 minutes, I quit. It was fun- but it was wasting away TONS of my time, and felt like a waste of life.
I am wondering if the risk/reward is going to be worth it? It has been many, many years since my pre-trammel UO days, and I will never play another MMO with time-sinks. Whether those time sinks are long travel times and grinding just to be able to have fun (most MMO's) or time sinks that consist of playing, only to be PK'd and have to start over from scratch. A time sink is a time sink.
Frustration is frustration.
Unfair fights suck, and regardless if you're the winner or loser- they're boring. Edit: There is a reason I dont play EQ1. Talk about a great game- but HUGE time sinks. There is a reason games like Vanguard added riftways, and future games are getting rid of death penalties and travelling. Time sinks are a thing of the past, and people honestly dont want to pay, play, or have fun if it means the majority of the time is going to be boring, frustrating, or draining. Discuss.
Thanks for this honest report. Many UO and EQ1 vets fool themselves into how great the times were and how great Darkfall will be for reviving the past. The amount of ppl who REALLY will enjoy the return to the MMO stone age is just minimal, because
1) as you said we are not as young as we used to be and
2) we just didnt know better back then and
3) we didnt have any alternative MMOs in those days.
Why any sane person really desires such a gankfest is beyond me. Even if I would for whatever reason be sure to be mostly on the winning side I could not take pleasure from the knowledge of making people sad on purpose.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Is this the price we must pay to have the other end of the spectrum- freedom, fun, PvP, and the risk/reward and nostalgia of UO? I have never had as much fun and excitement as when I played UO pre-trammel... BUT... 1) I was young then. I had plenty of time to waste, and wasted time without caring. Now, although part of me wants to experience classic pre-trammel UO, the other (more mature and intellectual) part of me keeps thinking "Why pay $15 a month to work for 3 hours getting gold, only to lose all of it because a Gank Squad of 15 men come by and kill me mercilessly- giving me no chance at all to win or fight back. Where is the fun in time-sinks? Where is the fun in losing hours of hard work? Where is the fun in having a great time in PvE only to have it end in anger and frustration that I couldnt do anything about the fact 10 professional PK's came up and killed my group of 3 WHILE we were already half dead?" There is no fun, only frustration- in being ganked, PK'd, and looted. Especially when you have no chance of winning (already hurt by monster, overwhelming odds, etc.) There IS fun in freedom, open PvP, attack-anyone, UO-type world.
This example is a lot like playing DAoC towards the end of its life. The sides were so unbalanced in the Zerg vs Zerg vs Zerg, that all I could do is run an 8-man, roaming around searching for something to fight. This resulted in a waste of time, and the end of my DAoC career. I quickly realized, I wasnt really playing the game or having fun enough to constitute playing or paying. The gameplay consisted of working for 1 hour to get a full group going, roaming for 20 minutes only to find a) Find a solo, which would be a 8v1 fight, which is boring bc they have no chance
b) Find a 2-3 man group, which again is a 8v3 fight, which is over before it began and thus boring.
c) Find the Zerg, running into 3 full groups of 24v8, which is over before it began and thus boring.
d) Find nothing, roaming again for 20 minutes.
e) The rare 1% chance of running into another full group and having a fair, fun battle of 8v8 And thus repeat, roam 20, a-e, roam 20, a-e, roam 20. So when I reailzed I had been playing for 4 hours, but actually only got to play for about 10 minutes, I quit. It was fun- but it was wasting away TONS of my time, and felt like a waste of life.
I am wondering if the risk/reward is going to be worth it? It has been many, many years since my pre-trammel UO days, and I will never play another MMO with time-sinks. Whether those time sinks are long travel times and grinding just to be able to have fun (most MMO's) or time sinks that consist of playing, only to be PK'd and have to start over from scratch. A time sink is a time sink.
Frustration is frustration.
Unfair fights suck, and regardless if you're the winner or loser- they're boring. Edit: There is a reason I dont play EQ1. Talk about a great game- but HUGE time sinks. There is a reason games like Vanguard added riftways, and future games are getting rid of death penalties and travelling. Time sinks are a thing of the past, and people honestly dont want to pay, play, or have fun if it means the majority of the time is going to be boring, frustrating, or draining. Discuss.
Thanks for this honest report. Many UO and EQ1 vets fool themselves into how great the times were and how great Darkfall will be for reviving the past. The amount of ppl who REALLY will enjoy the return to the MMO stone age is just minimal, because
1) as you said we are not as young as we used to be and
2) we just didnt know better back then and
3) we didnt have any alternative MMOs in those days.
Why any sane person really desires such a gankfest is beyond me. Even if I would for whatever reason be sure to be mostly on the winning side I could not take pleasure from the knowledge of making people sad on purpose.
That was always the deal with UO and Trammel.
Trammel was nothing more than another server where you couldn't get ganked, You could still play UO with all the ganking if you wanted to. Trouble was, not that many people wanted to.
So, all the gankers had no more victims, because the victims all had other choices of games to play.
PvP is fun, and some people do like hardcore PvP, but they really really liked it when there was less choice and some people would put up wiht ganking just to play an online game. Those days are gone. Everyone will like ganking and being ganked in DF, or they will just play something else.
If the possibility of dying and losing stuff in a game that's non-based anyway is a time sink, sign me up.
I think people are too wrapped up around the concept of losing (negative advancement) in a game where this is possible.
However, what are you really losing? A few hours worth of work? A few days? The nature of the game is more "easy come, easy go" versus the grind of more contemporary games, eg WoW.
What's a bigger timesink? Dying and losing all your carried posessions, which can be replaced in a few hours or days of adventuring/questing/crafting, or spending months upon months raiding... in order to proceed onto more raids... in order to proceed onto more raids? For some strange reason, people are willing to put up with an endless WoW-type gear grind, just as long as nothing can be taken away from them.
WoW has improved considerably since the MC/BWL/AQ days, when it really was "raid or die", but the core of the game "linear gear based loot acquisition and progression" remains, it's just a question of what path you take (raids, heroics, arena, etc.).
I wouldn't call full looting in Darkfall/UO type games a "timesink", in the traditional sense of the word - it isn't an arbitrary mechanic expressly designed to eat up time.
However, as a "time loss event", if you want to consider it a timesink, than do you have a similar problem with games like WoW, EQ, etc? What games do you like, Guild Wars, with a very minimal level grind, and no possibility of losing your items?
<sigh> The idiocy in this thread is exceptional even by MMORPG.com standards.
1. It's supposed to be *HUGE* gameworld, if you want to grind in some corner like you're used to do in other games, become a hermit. If the game is as huge as they say, it will be absolutely no problem at all to find some spot in the middle of nowhere and do your thing.
2. Join a guild and use their "safe" areas. This should be selfexplanatory. Soloing doesn't shine in FFA environment.
3. There will be no hotspots where ganksquads make a camp and wait for the grinders to show up. This is because mobs don't have static spawnpoints. Where you one day had goblins, the next day there might a dragon or player made town or just empty space.
4. There are no uber items. No ubershinies that you raid for 15 hours a day over a month long period. Like in EVE, you only use what you can afford to lose. That is really the number one rule in loot games.
5. After the initial chaos has died off and guilds start to control their areas, ganksquads will have a hard time finding their easy prey. What they will be facing is organized armies of competing guilds. Not everywhere obviously, but just something they have to keep in mind. Gankers don't like getting killed repeatedly.
6. Skills only give you a certain advantage, it's more about your personal skill. No demigods killing armies of lowbies with their pinkie.
One thing you are leaving out is that there was a risk for PKing in UO. Thats what helped balance the world so well. When you went red it was much harder to get a res. You couldn't really go to any town, except bucs den which sucked anyways. Then when the bounty system came on it was even better. Those murderers would rarely be seen anywhere youd find more than a couple players. As long as the consiquences for PKing are just as harsh as the gank penalty I think it can work out just fine.
This just proves you never experienced the early days of UO. Despite the hard penalties for being a PK in the early days of UO, including the introduction of a bounty system and state & skill loss for PK's that got killed. This still didn't stem the tide of PK's. It was the PK's running the show that made a vocal minority of carebears complain and complain that they couldn't go to dungeons or other hunting areas without the dread lord showing up as their reason for leaving UO. This in turn made the dev team make the decision to create the carebear haven Trammel.
There were blue vs Reds wars and witch hunts for PK's that went on that were a blast, but ultimately the dread lord PK guilds had the upper hand in controlling the popular hunting spots. Every time a PK did get killed he just went back to his house and macroed his skills and stats back up again.
A PK guild would even claim their own huge bounties on their heads using the bounty system in their favour to make gold. There was no balance. It was dangerous being a blue, but also dangerous at times for PK's when blue groups got together for PK hunting. There was never a balance there was always danger and risk for everybody.
Being interrpupted while you're working on something isn't exciting or fun, it's just annoying. That's why you get the RvR game design. When you want to work on PvE, you can do that without getting ganked. If you want a bit more excitement, you can go to the frontier, and you can still PvE, but you have the opportunity to fight other players. Getting ganked over and over and over, while trying to do some simple PvE is more frustration than most players are willing to put up with. Keep in mind DArkfall is not pure FFA PvP. There are consequeinces. If you kill everyone, then the guards will begin to kill you, and so forth. Will this be enough to keep the ganking down to a level that is tolerable? No way to know without seeing the exact rules that are in place. If you get ganked now and then, it might be tolerabe. Every 5 minutes, probably not. How do you write the rules so that players get ganked every now and then, and not every 5 minutes? I don't know, maybe Tasos does.
You like that game design? Here's a tip for you then. Go and play one of those games. Darkfall is not going to be one of those games and you have plenty of choices of released games like that on the market. Are you trying to make Darkfall another clone or what?
Nothing is fun about doing the same endless raid over and over again, against the same static, stupid NPCs, and spending hours of hard work for some giant purple monstrosity of a sword that I'll never lose and therefore becomes valueless to me the minute I get it.
Nothing is fun about that for me. Apparently it's fun for 11 million people though. Being PKed and losing hours of hard work is fun, though. For me. I like the challenge and the risk.
Nothing is fun about doing the same endless raid over and over again, against the same static, stupid NPCs, and spending hours of hard work for some giant purple monstrosity of a sword that I'll never lose and therefore becomes valueless to me the minute I get it. Nothing is fun about that for me. Apparently it's fun for 11 million people though. Being PKed and losing hours of hard work is fun, though. For me. I like the challenge and the risk.
You are completly right, there should be games for you also. I don't share your opinion but there should be games around for everyone.
I prefer hard PvE based games with some arenalike PvP combat myself. Ain't to many of those around right now either because most games are quite easy PvE based games that everyone can master fast.
I think the idea of darkfall is good, we need more different kinds of games and less games that try to aim for everyone. If I'm gonna play DF? Possibly but not that likely.
Being interrpupted while you're working on something isn't exciting or fun, it's just annoying. That's why you get the RvR game design. When you want to work on PvE, you can do that without getting ganked. If you want a bit more excitement, you can go to the frontier, and you can still PvE, but you have the opportunity to fight other players. Getting ganked over and over and over, while trying to do some simple PvE is more frustration than most players are willing to put up with. Keep in mind DArkfall is not pure FFA PvP. There are consequeinces. If you kill everyone, then the guards will begin to kill you, and so forth. Will this be enough to keep the ganking down to a level that is tolerable? No way to know without seeing the exact rules that are in place. If you get ganked now and then, it might be tolerabe. Every 5 minutes, probably not. How do you write the rules so that players get ganked every now and then, and not every 5 minutes? I don't know, maybe Tasos does.
What rules? According to this image on the Darkfall website, there are no rules/restrictions placed on player interaction:
This tells me anybody can pk anybody else without fear of game-based repurcussions. PKers will need to deal wtih other players, but not mechanics like "reputation", unless this has been stated elsewhere. Has it? I'd love some clarification.
Nothing is fun about doing the same endless raid over and over again, against the same static, stupid NPCs, and spending hours of hard work for some giant purple monstrosity of a sword that I'll never lose and therefore becomes valueless to me the minute I get it. Nothing is fun about that for me. Apparently it's fun for 11 million people though. Being PKed and losing hours of hard work is fun, though. For me. I like the challenge and the risk.
QFT
Thats dont mean that a good PvE is not wanted... It means that we dont want more of this dumb PvE around, this imbecile raid thing of 50 persons to get ONE ring, on a raid of 4 hours...
By the way, UO FTW!!!! (the old one). Who played it knows what I mean...
Is this the price we must pay to have the other end of the spectrum- freedom, fun, PvP, and the risk/reward and nostalgia of UO? I have never had as much fun and excitement as when I played UO pre-trammel... BUT... 1) I was young then. I had plenty of time to waste, and wasted time without caring. Now, although part of me wants to experience classic pre-trammel UO, the other (more mature and intellectual) part of me keeps thinking "Why pay $15 a month to work for 3 hours getting gold, only to lose all of it because a Gank Squad of 15 men come by and kill me mercilessly- giving me no chance at all to win or fight back. Where is the fun in time-sinks? Where is the fun in losing hours of hard work? Where is the fun in having a great time in PvE only to have it end in anger and frustration that I couldnt do anything about the fact 10 professional PK's came up and killed my group of 3 WHILE we were already half dead?" There is no fun, only frustration- in being ganked, PK'd, and looted. Especially when you have no chance of winning (already hurt by monster, overwhelming odds, etc.) There IS fun in freedom, open PvP, attack-anyone, UO-type world.
This example is a lot like playing DAoC towards the end of its life. The sides were so unbalanced in the Zerg vs Zerg vs Zerg, that all I could do is run an 8-man, roaming around searching for something to fight. This resulted in a waste of time, and the end of my DAoC career. I quickly realized, I wasnt really playing the game or having fun enough to constitute playing or paying. The gameplay consisted of working for 1 hour to get a full group going, roaming for 20 minutes only to find a) Find a solo, which would be a 8v1 fight, which is boring bc they have no chance
b) Find a 2-3 man group, which again is a 8v3 fight, which is over before it began and thus boring.
c) Find the Zerg, running into 3 full groups of 24v8, which is over before it began and thus boring.
d) Find nothing, roaming again for 20 minutes.
e) The rare 1% chance of running into another full group and having a fair, fun battle of 8v8 And thus repeat, roam 20, a-e, roam 20, a-e, roam 20. So when I reailzed I had been playing for 4 hours, but actually only got to play for about 10 minutes, I quit. It was fun- but it was wasting away TONS of my time, and felt like a waste of life.
I am wondering if the risk/reward is going to be worth it? It has been many, many years since my pre-trammel UO days, and I will never play another MMO with time-sinks. Whether those time sinks are long travel times and grinding just to be able to have fun (most MMO's) or time sinks that consist of playing, only to be PK'd and have to start over from scratch. A time sink is a time sink.
Frustration is frustration.
Unfair fights suck, and regardless if you're the winner or loser- they're boring. Edit: There is a reason I dont play EQ1. Talk about a great game- but HUGE time sinks. There is a reason games like Vanguard added riftways, and future games are getting rid of death penalties and travelling. Time sinks are a thing of the past, and people honestly dont want to pay, play, or have fun if it means the majority of the time is going to be boring, frustrating, or draining. Discuss.
Man,..... this could have been me that wrote this. I felt and quit for exactly the same reason Dark age.
This was well written and I appreciated these thoughts.
This is the most amusing and also annoying thing that DF fans throw around all the time.
"If you don't have fun here, go play WoW!!!!!" "If you don't like this, go play WoW!!"!"
Seriously. Try growing up a little. Just because someone doesn't agree with everything DF offers/does/wants to do, doesn't mean they are WoW fanatics and/or supporters.
Some of you might not be WOW supporters, but you support that type of mmo`s. Nothing wrong with supporting WOW, I tried it myself for a few years. It`s a good game if you are into that sort of mmo`s.
What I don`t get is why you want to change a small mmo like Darkfall. It`s a niche game made by a rockie, Greek, indie company. The targetgroup of this small indie company is players that want a FFA sandbox mmo.
My question is simple, What are you looking for in a mmorpg that isn`t allready made?
Take a look at the list of released games to the left. I count 39 games on that list, and 38 are made for people like you. Those of us that like risk vs reward mmo`s have 1. Hell, we don`t even have an old classic game like UO anymore, because your kind made it a WOW clone.
You have no idea how lucky you are. You can pick and choose from 38 games, and much more are on their way. There are 15 mmo`s in development, and 13 of those game are made for you. We have 2 on that list, Darkfall and Mortal Online.
If you take away looting in Darkfall, you destroy everything that makes it unique. It will just be another WOW clone with bad animation. It would make Tabula Rasa look like a huge success.
We are a few 100000 players, but we know what we want in a game, do you?
Btw, I`m probably old enough to be your father, so here it comes
Dungeon siege is not an MMO and yes I played the original. Not an appropriate example IMO. Given that you did not reply to the original question is it safe to assume that the answer is no? You have not played UO or SWG? If so, I am just going to suggest that you keep an open mind until you try out DF.
I have an open mind. That is not relevant to the topic.
How is the system in Darkfall vastly different from teh system in Dungeon Siege?
I get they are different genres, single player vs MMORPG, but we are discussing the combat system.
The combat systems are the same, yes?
Yes, that is what we are discussing (actually skill system but I assume that is what you meant). However, i am not discussing it outside the overall game because I think it makes a difference.
In a game like WoW or EQ, yes I think that being able to level your toon by sparring with other players would be inappropriate. However, the gameplay in DF will be dramatically different from the EQ-clones. One has to be either sufficiently imaginative or have had the experience of a similar MMO to relate. Even though Dungeon Siege has a similar skill system, the overall experience was nothing like UO or SWG.
Think of it like this, back to the motorcycle example. Say some arbitrary person's need for an automobile is for something that accomodate his whole family and luggage for the weekend trips. When that person is asked about motorcycles, he says that they are stupid because they seat at most two people and can't carry much luggage. This is an unfair criticism because motorcycles serve different purposes. In general seating and cargo capacity for motorcycles are hardly relevant. Such is the case when you compare features between PvE focussed EQ-clones and full PvP skill based sandboxes.
Motorcycle analogy fails.
Raising skill by using skills is raising skills by using skills, no matter how you slice it, no matter whether you put it in a single player or multi player game.
I'm not saying it's the worst system ever, but it's kinda lame IMO.
It's for people that need everything to be literal.
What a few of us have been trying to explain is that the game is NOT about raising your skills. Sandbox MMOs like UO, SWG, etc. are fundamentally different from games like EQ, WoW, etc. Take SWG for example. You could max out your skills in a very short amount of time. If you were a decent player with decent time, you could max out in 3 days. After that, you could play for YEARS and still have fun every day. (Not YEARS for SWG because of what SOE did to it, but if it was left as pre-cu this would apply). It's like comparing point-and-click adventure games with first-person-shooters. They are different kinds of games.
In the end, having better skills is more like choosing which weapon you want to use. Sometimes you'll pick cool-looking weapons because that's what you prefer. Darkfall is more about player skill (FPS-style combat) than what skills you have. A few new players with no skills can take down a bad, long-time player.
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Dungeon siege is not an MMO and yes I played the original. Not an appropriate example IMO. Given that you did not reply to the original question is it safe to assume that the answer is no? You have not played UO or SWG? If so, I am just going to suggest that you keep an open mind until you try out DF.
I have an open mind. That is not relevant to the topic.
How is the system in Darkfall vastly different from teh system in Dungeon Siege?
I get they are different genres, single player vs MMORPG, but we are discussing the combat system.
The combat systems are the same, yes?
Yes, that is what we are discussing (actually skill system but I assume that is what you meant). However, i am not discussing it outside the overall game because I think it makes a difference.
In a game like WoW or EQ, yes I think that being able to level your toon by sparring with other players would be inappropriate. However, the gameplay in DF will be dramatically different from the EQ-clones. One has to be either sufficiently imaginative or have had the experience of a similar MMO to relate. Even though Dungeon Siege has a similar skill system, the overall experience was nothing like UO or SWG.
Think of it like this, back to the motorcycle example. Say some arbitrary person's need for an automobile is for something that accomodate his whole family and luggage for the weekend trips. When that person is asked about motorcycles, he says that they are stupid because they seat at most two people and can't carry much luggage. This is an unfair criticism because motorcycles serve different purposes. In general seating and cargo capacity for motorcycles are hardly relevant. Such is the case when you compare features between PvE focussed EQ-clones and full PvP skill based sandboxes.
Motorcycle analogy fails.
Raising skill by using skills is raising skills by using skills, no matter how you slice it, no matter whether you put it in a single player or multi player game.
I'm not saying it's the worst system ever, but it's kinda lame IMO.
It's for people that need everything to be literal.
What a few of us have been trying to explain is that the game is NOT about raising your skills. Sandbox MMOs like UO, SWG, etc. are fundamentally different from games like EQ, WoW, etc. Take SWG for example. You could max out your skills in a very short amount of time. If you were a decent player with decent time, you could max out in 3 days. After that, you could play for YEARS and still have fun every day. (Not YEARS for SWG because of what SOE did to it, but if it was left as pre-cu this would apply). It's like comparing point-and-click adventure games with first-person-shooters. They are different kinds of games.
In the end, having better skills is more like choosing which weapon you want to use. Sometimes you'll pick cool-looking weapons because that's what you prefer. Darkfall is more about player skill (FPS-style combat) than what skills you have. A few new players with no skills can take down a bad, long-time player.
Actually no, to be Jedi you had to max all skills, and it took a long time. People would skill grind to get to Jedi.
I didn't read any responses and only read a little bit of the OP but: Fun is subjective. If it's not fun for you... dont do it. Don't play the game, don't wait for the game, don't bitch about the game. If you don't find it fun, go play WoW. Simple.
The sigil of the ADD generation that created the WoW phenomena. I didn't do anything, but here is what I want...and I want it NOW!
Why admit to being so lazy and inept? If you can't read the entire post, or thread for that matter...ah nevermind.
You seem to think I wanted something in my post? I think you didn't even READ my post past the first line, how hypocritical. I didn't read the thread because it's going to be half DF fanboys saying how amazing the features are, and half WoWfags saying how n00b the features are. None of it is relavent because there are multiple games that cater to multiple types of people. Those who get bored with WoW and WAR and EQ2 want to seem to change all upcoming games to their style of MMO so they can get their kicks off for a month and move on to the "next next gen" of games.
You seem to think I wanted something in my post? I think you didn't even READ my post past the first line, how hypocritical. I didn't read the thread because it's going to be half DF fanboys saying how amazing the features are, and half WoWfags saying how n00b the features are. None of it is relavent because there are multiple games that cater to multiple types of people. Those who get bored with WoW and WAR and EQ2 want to seem to change all upcoming games to their style of MMO so they can get their kicks off for a month and move on to the "next next gen" of games.
How did you see my post? I didn't think you read the thread...
Being interrpupted while you're working on something isn't exciting or fun, it's just annoying. That's why you get the RvR game design. When you want to work on PvE, you can do that without getting ganked. If you want a bit more excitement, you can go to the frontier, and you can still PvE, but you have the opportunity to fight other players. Getting ganked over and over and over, while trying to do some simple PvE is more frustration than most players are willing to put up with. Keep in mind DArkfall is not pure FFA PvP. There are consequeinces. If you kill everyone, then the guards will begin to kill you, and so forth. Will this be enough to keep the ganking down to a level that is tolerable? No way to know without seeing the exact rules that are in place. If you get ganked now and then, it might be tolerabe. Every 5 minutes, probably not. How do you write the rules so that players get ganked every now and then, and not every 5 minutes? I don't know, maybe Tasos does.
You like that game design? Here's a tip for you then. Go and play one of those games. Darkfall is not going to be one of those games and you have plenty of choices of released games like that on the market. Are you trying to make Darkfall another clone or what?
Yes, I'm putting a gun to Tasos' head and forcing him to make a different game, because I am the game police.
I'm discussing game design as it relates to DArkfall and the general game playing public. What are you doing?
Comments
You can lead a horse to water...
/thread
Actually, humans enjoy working. Working to achieve a goal. Satisfaction of obtaining that goal, etc.
It's actually rather ironic for a few players. They will hate their jobs in real life, yet come home and play a game where they do the same (work) but enjoy it and have tons of fun- failing to realize they could have the same satisfaction, joy, and enjoyment in their regular job (well... as long as they dont work at McDonalds or under the care of the boss from Hell)
Human beings take pleasure, enjoyment, and fun out of working. Thats what you do in most games- you work.
What some people fail to realize is that not everyone hates their job or has a crappy job. Just because it is fun or enjoyable doesn't change the fact it's work.
I find it rather sad that some less fortunate people will harp and claim that if you have a nice boss, your job is enjoyable, or your boss is your good friend, and you dont have a boss from hell and a job that deals with hard labor and frustrating customers- it's not "real work" or a "real job".
I got a lot of enjoyment in UO, working hard killing monsters to earn enough gold to buy what I wanted, so I could kill more monsters and earn more gold to have in case I lose that armor. I worked so I could work. And I loved it.
Yep, another term for basically everything you just said is Labor of Love.
There's some sort of something out there that everyone loves to do, and while doing it, they may be working their ass off, but they are loving it while they are doing.
Examples: Sports players, when i wrestled I would puke from running and be so achy from practice i could barley move. But i loved it.
So if the work you put into this game is not worth the time and if you are easily able to be ganked w/out being able to easily get your gear or similar/on par gear back just as easily, this game will fail, and fail terribly.
Not even just this game though, any game with a FFA PvP game style will fail with out easily obtained items and gear.
So a person thats leveled/skilled up their character can easily obtain everything they had that they just lost.
Go from riches to poor to rich again.
If that is not able to happen, this game will be a complete niche market game.
ugh stop it with this small niche sh!t there is a gigantic HUNGER for a game with this type of game mechanic, how else can you explain the gigantic number of people who are registered in the official forums, how else can you explain the gigantic player created hype, how else can you explain hype in the face of the fact that the devs have HORRIBLE pr and do little to disprove that this game is vaporware?
If you don't like this concept, please go play ANY other mmo, as they are suited to your interests.
Anyway, its all about immersion and risk vs. reward. In most games there's no risk and theres very little reward. in DF if you're going alone and have leet gear on, you may not like the idea but you deserve to get looted, the risk in this case highly outweighs the rewards.
Trust between players actually matters now, playing smart (traveling in groups/ avoiding popular routes/using leet gear wisely) actually matters now, whether or not you win battles actually matters now.
also gear won't make or break a char like in WoW, unlike what many people think though, it WILL matter, it just won't be the ONLY thing that matters.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
Thats ez to say that but hard to do that. Trust me you will be by your own people and the land is so big you will most likly not even see a enemy.
And looting you takes time its not the old magical way by clicking button there done looting. Most likly someone from your own kind will kill the people that killed you.
Build houses close to your people and not out by your own and you will be ok.
WWIIOnline The Real War!
Yes i agree , but in this game you can block your attacks and your also able to run away and not die because this game is a aimming game, so this game is all skill.
WWIIOnline The Real War!
I like the way Shadowbane does it. You have a tracking skill so you can see pkers on track before they get to you. this at least gives you some advance warning.
there are so many carebear games out there, if you can not deal with the pressure, don't waste your money on it.
If it's all player skill, then why would you need to raise your skills?
Thanks for this honest report. Many UO and EQ1 vets fool themselves into how great the times were and how great Darkfall will be for reviving the past. The amount of ppl who REALLY will enjoy the return to the MMO stone age is just minimal, because
1) as you said we are not as young as we used to be and
2) we just didnt know better back then and
3) we didnt have any alternative MMOs in those days.
Why any sane person really desires such a gankfest is beyond me. Even if I would for whatever reason be sure to be mostly on the winning side I could not take pleasure from the knowledge of making people sad on purpose.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Thanks for this honest report. Many UO and EQ1 vets fool themselves into how great the times were and how great Darkfall will be for reviving the past. The amount of ppl who REALLY will enjoy the return to the MMO stone age is just minimal, because
1) as you said we are not as young as we used to be and
2) we just didnt know better back then and
3) we didnt have any alternative MMOs in those days.
Why any sane person really desires such a gankfest is beyond me. Even if I would for whatever reason be sure to be mostly on the winning side I could not take pleasure from the knowledge of making people sad on purpose.
That was always the deal with UO and Trammel.
Trammel was nothing more than another server where you couldn't get ganked, You could still play UO with all the ganking if you wanted to. Trouble was, not that many people wanted to.
So, all the gankers had no more victims, because the victims all had other choices of games to play.
PvP is fun, and some people do like hardcore PvP, but they really really liked it when there was less choice and some people would put up wiht ganking just to play an online game. Those days are gone. Everyone will like ganking and being ganked in DF, or they will just play something else.
If the possibility of dying and losing stuff in a game that's non-based anyway is a time sink, sign me up.
I think people are too wrapped up around the concept of losing (negative advancement) in a game where this is possible.
However, what are you really losing? A few hours worth of work? A few days? The nature of the game is more "easy come, easy go" versus the grind of more contemporary games, eg WoW.
What's a bigger timesink? Dying and losing all your carried posessions, which can be replaced in a few hours or days of adventuring/questing/crafting, or spending months upon months raiding... in order to proceed onto more raids... in order to proceed onto more raids? For some strange reason, people are willing to put up with an endless WoW-type gear grind, just as long as nothing can be taken away from them.
WoW has improved considerably since the MC/BWL/AQ days, when it really was "raid or die", but the core of the game "linear gear based loot acquisition and progression" remains, it's just a question of what path you take (raids, heroics, arena, etc.).
I wouldn't call full looting in Darkfall/UO type games a "timesink", in the traditional sense of the word - it isn't an arbitrary mechanic expressly designed to eat up time.
However, as a "time loss event", if you want to consider it a timesink, than do you have a similar problem with games like WoW, EQ, etc? What games do you like, Guild Wars, with a very minimal level grind, and no possibility of losing your items?
<sigh> The idiocy in this thread is exceptional even by MMORPG.com standards.
1. It's supposed to be *HUGE* gameworld, if you want to grind in some corner like you're used to do in other games, become a hermit. If the game is as huge as they say, it will be absolutely no problem at all to find some spot in the middle of nowhere and do your thing.
2. Join a guild and use their "safe" areas. This should be selfexplanatory. Soloing doesn't shine in FFA environment.
3. There will be no hotspots where ganksquads make a camp and wait for the grinders to show up. This is because mobs don't have static spawnpoints. Where you one day had goblins, the next day there might a dragon or player made town or just empty space.
4. There are no uber items. No ubershinies that you raid for 15 hours a day over a month long period. Like in EVE, you only use what you can afford to lose. That is really the number one rule in loot games.
5. After the initial chaos has died off and guilds start to control their areas, ganksquads will have a hard time finding their easy prey. What they will be facing is organized armies of competing guilds. Not everywhere obviously, but just something they have to keep in mind. Gankers don't like getting killed repeatedly.
6. Skills only give you a certain advantage, it's more about your personal skill. No demigods killing armies of lowbies with their pinkie.
This just proves you never experienced the early days of UO. Despite the hard penalties for being a PK in the early days of UO, including the introduction of a bounty system and state & skill loss for PK's that got killed. This still didn't stem the tide of PK's. It was the PK's running the show that made a vocal minority of carebears complain and complain that they couldn't go to dungeons or other hunting areas without the dread lord showing up as their reason for leaving UO. This in turn made the dev team make the decision to create the carebear haven Trammel.
There were blue vs Reds wars and witch hunts for PK's that went on that were a blast, but ultimately the dread lord PK guilds had the upper hand in controlling the popular hunting spots. Every time a PK did get killed he just went back to his house and macroed his skills and stats back up again.
A PK guild would even claim their own huge bounties on their heads using the bounty system in their favour to make gold. There was no balance. It was dangerous being a blue, but also dangerous at times for PK's when blue groups got together for PK hunting. There was never a balance there was always danger and risk for everybody.
You like that game design? Here's a tip for you then. Go and play one of those games. Darkfall is not going to be one of those games and you have plenty of choices of released games like that on the market. Are you trying to make Darkfall another clone or what?
Nothing is fun about doing the same endless raid over and over again, against the same static, stupid NPCs, and spending hours of hard work for some giant purple monstrosity of a sword that I'll never lose and therefore becomes valueless to me the minute I get it.
Nothing is fun about that for me. Apparently it's fun for 11 million people though. Being PKed and losing hours of hard work is fun, though. For me. I like the challenge and the risk.
You are completly right, there should be games for you also. I don't share your opinion but there should be games around for everyone.
I prefer hard PvE based games with some arenalike PvP combat myself. Ain't to many of those around right now either because most games are quite easy PvE based games that everyone can master fast.
I think the idea of darkfall is good, we need more different kinds of games and less games that try to aim for everyone. If I'm gonna play DF? Possibly but not that likely.
What rules? According to this image on the Darkfall website, there are no rules/restrictions placed on player interaction:
This tells me anybody can pk anybody else without fear of game-based repurcussions. PKers will need to deal wtih other players, but not mechanics like "reputation", unless this has been stated elsewhere. Has it? I'd love some clarification.
~Ripper
QFT
Thats dont mean that a good PvE is not wanted... It means that we dont want more of this dumb PvE around, this imbecile raid thing of 50 persons to get ONE ring, on a raid of 4 hours...
By the way, UO FTW!!!! (the old one). Who played it knows what I mean...
Man,..... this could have been me that wrote this. I felt and quit for exactly the same reason Dark age.
This was well written and I appreciated these thoughts.
King of the world
Some of you might not be WOW supporters, but you support that type of mmo`s. Nothing wrong with supporting WOW, I tried it myself for a few years. It`s a good game if you are into that sort of mmo`s.
What I don`t get is why you want to change a small mmo like Darkfall. It`s a niche game made by a rockie, Greek, indie company. The targetgroup of this small indie company is players that want a FFA sandbox mmo.
My question is simple, What are you looking for in a mmorpg that isn`t allready made?
Take a look at the list of released games to the left. I count 39 games on that list, and 38 are made for people like you. Those of us that like risk vs reward mmo`s have 1. Hell, we don`t even have an old classic game like UO anymore, because your kind made it a WOW clone.
You have no idea how lucky you are. You can pick and choose from 38 games, and much more are on their way. There are 15 mmo`s in development, and 13 of those game are made for you. We have 2 on that list, Darkfall and Mortal Online.
If you take away looting in Darkfall, you destroy everything that makes it unique. It will just be another WOW clone with bad animation. It would make Tabula Rasa look like a huge success.
We are a few 100000 players, but we know what we want in a game, do you?
Btw, I`m probably old enough to be your father, so here it comes
GO BACK TO YOUR WOW CLONE
I have an open mind. That is not relevant to the topic.
How is the system in Darkfall vastly different from teh system in Dungeon Siege?
I get they are different genres, single player vs MMORPG, but we are discussing the combat system.
The combat systems are the same, yes?
Yes, that is what we are discussing (actually skill system but I assume that is what you meant). However, i am not discussing it outside the overall game because I think it makes a difference.
In a game like WoW or EQ, yes I think that being able to level your toon by sparring with other players would be inappropriate. However, the gameplay in DF will be dramatically different from the EQ-clones. One has to be either sufficiently imaginative or have had the experience of a similar MMO to relate. Even though Dungeon Siege has a similar skill system, the overall experience was nothing like UO or SWG.
Think of it like this, back to the motorcycle example. Say some arbitrary person's need for an automobile is for something that accomodate his whole family and luggage for the weekend trips. When that person is asked about motorcycles, he says that they are stupid because they seat at most two people and can't carry much luggage. This is an unfair criticism because motorcycles serve different purposes. In general seating and cargo capacity for motorcycles are hardly relevant. Such is the case when you compare features between PvE focussed EQ-clones and full PvP skill based sandboxes.
Motorcycle analogy fails.
Raising skill by using skills is raising skills by using skills, no matter how you slice it, no matter whether you put it in a single player or multi player game.
I'm not saying it's the worst system ever, but it's kinda lame IMO.
It's for people that need everything to be literal.
What a few of us have been trying to explain is that the game is NOT about raising your skills. Sandbox MMOs like UO, SWG, etc. are fundamentally different from games like EQ, WoW, etc. Take SWG for example. You could max out your skills in a very short amount of time. If you were a decent player with decent time, you could max out in 3 days. After that, you could play for YEARS and still have fun every day. (Not YEARS for SWG because of what SOE did to it, but if it was left as pre-cu this would apply). It's like comparing point-and-click adventure games with first-person-shooters. They are different kinds of games.
In the end, having better skills is more like choosing which weapon you want to use. Sometimes you'll pick cool-looking weapons because that's what you prefer. Darkfall is more about player skill (FPS-style combat) than what skills you have. A few new players with no skills can take down a bad, long-time player.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
I have an open mind. That is not relevant to the topic.
How is the system in Darkfall vastly different from teh system in Dungeon Siege?
I get they are different genres, single player vs MMORPG, but we are discussing the combat system.
The combat systems are the same, yes?
Yes, that is what we are discussing (actually skill system but I assume that is what you meant). However, i am not discussing it outside the overall game because I think it makes a difference.
In a game like WoW or EQ, yes I think that being able to level your toon by sparring with other players would be inappropriate. However, the gameplay in DF will be dramatically different from the EQ-clones. One has to be either sufficiently imaginative or have had the experience of a similar MMO to relate. Even though Dungeon Siege has a similar skill system, the overall experience was nothing like UO or SWG.
Think of it like this, back to the motorcycle example. Say some arbitrary person's need for an automobile is for something that accomodate his whole family and luggage for the weekend trips. When that person is asked about motorcycles, he says that they are stupid because they seat at most two people and can't carry much luggage. This is an unfair criticism because motorcycles serve different purposes. In general seating and cargo capacity for motorcycles are hardly relevant. Such is the case when you compare features between PvE focussed EQ-clones and full PvP skill based sandboxes.
Motorcycle analogy fails.
Raising skill by using skills is raising skills by using skills, no matter how you slice it, no matter whether you put it in a single player or multi player game.
I'm not saying it's the worst system ever, but it's kinda lame IMO.
It's for people that need everything to be literal.
What a few of us have been trying to explain is that the game is NOT about raising your skills. Sandbox MMOs like UO, SWG, etc. are fundamentally different from games like EQ, WoW, etc. Take SWG for example. You could max out your skills in a very short amount of time. If you were a decent player with decent time, you could max out in 3 days. After that, you could play for YEARS and still have fun every day. (Not YEARS for SWG because of what SOE did to it, but if it was left as pre-cu this would apply). It's like comparing point-and-click adventure games with first-person-shooters. They are different kinds of games.
In the end, having better skills is more like choosing which weapon you want to use. Sometimes you'll pick cool-looking weapons because that's what you prefer. Darkfall is more about player skill (FPS-style combat) than what skills you have. A few new players with no skills can take down a bad, long-time player.
Actually no, to be Jedi you had to max all skills, and it took a long time. People would skill grind to get to Jedi.
The sigil of the ADD generation that created the WoW phenomena. I didn't do anything, but here is what I want...and I want it NOW!
Why admit to being so lazy and inept? If you can't read the entire post, or thread for that matter...ah nevermind.
You seem to think I wanted something in my post? I think you didn't even READ my post past the first line, how hypocritical. I didn't read the thread because it's going to be half DF fanboys saying how amazing the features are, and half WoWfags saying how n00b the features are. None of it is relavent because there are multiple games that cater to multiple types of people. Those who get bored with WoW and WAR and EQ2 want to seem to change all upcoming games to their style of MMO so they can get their kicks off for a month and move on to the "next next gen" of games.
How did you see my post? I didn't think you read the thread...
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
You like that game design? Here's a tip for you then. Go and play one of those games. Darkfall is not going to be one of those games and you have plenty of choices of released games like that on the market. Are you trying to make Darkfall another clone or what?
Yes, I'm putting a gun to Tasos' head and forcing him to make a different game, because I am the game police.
I'm discussing game design as it relates to DArkfall and the general game playing public. What are you doing?