That is really funny "hard work". That is what is wrong with gamers today. It is a game meant for fun, if it feels like work you are doing it for the wrong reasons.
Learning to play guitar is work, you may enjoy it, but when you first start and youve played your fingers raw if not bloody, its definately work. Just beacuse its a hobby doesnt mean theres no work involved, the same can be said of any activity you enjoy, be it skateboarding, hockey, or even crocheting.
OP, dont listen to these chest beating, holier than thou fans. Most of them dont even have experience with a hardcore pvp game, such as pre trammel UO, or even shadowbane. They dont know what theyre going to be getting into, I guarantee you most of these guys who act like this will be the first to quit, personally Id love nothing more than to kill these guys repeatedly, day in and day out and teach them the meaning of the word humility.
HAHA, are you for real Arcken?
You have changed from a troll to a hardcore PK in days. This is indeed a strange case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
Hmm... In what way can you hurt Darkfall when your Vapor don`t work. Are you trying to scare people to even try this game?
In what imaginary awsome guild are you a member? It have to be mega large to be able to take on 3000 players from an opposing faction at the goblinspawn 100 yards from it`s capital city.
Don`t let Arcken fever fantasy scare you away. Just check his old posts and have fun in Darkfall.
We are in for a ride, and you`ll gonna love it.
Im actually a member of Zhentil Keep, were an aussie guild mostly, have been around for 10+ years and have always preferred to play PvP games. We did very well in Shadowbane, Aoc, and are doing pretty well in Warhammer. What ffa pvp games have you played exactly?
Like I always tell people, you want a taste of Darkfalls community, go check out Shadowbane, its very cutthroat and nasty. The same way Darkfall will be. I can tell you dont have any real experience with ffa pvp, and I doubt most of these fans do either. Itll be a rude awakening for sure. And it doesnt take 3000 people to wreak havoc in a noobie zone, all it takes is say 10 or 15 people who have skilled up faster than everyone else from playing non stop. Weve seen it before and we'll see it again. Good luck fans, you'll need it, this aint WoW.
Pish posh. Ive met alot of nice people in shadowbane and in UO back in the day.
I play Shadowbane and it's alot of fun, getting wasted then one day wasting someone else (got my first 1v1 PK in Shadowbane yesterday). An open PvP enviroment with full looting prevents farming bots, even with open PvP in AoC there were Chinese farmers due to the fact they lost nothing if they were killed. Also with no reward for winning a fight people stoped PKing, I got bored of even killing farmers in AoC.
Whilst waiting for Darkfall I suggest you play Shadowbane, it's free and it's an example of how to make an open FFA PvP game that works. Getting PK'd might not be fun for you, but can you tell me that constantly killing NPCs for 3 hours is?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Im actually a member of Zhentil Keep, were an aussie guild mostly, have been around for 10+ years and have always preferred to play PvP games. We did very well in Shadowbane, Aoc, and are doing pretty well in Warhammer. What ffa pvp games have you played exactly?
Like I always tell people, you want a taste of Darkfalls community, go check out Shadowbane, its very cutthroat and nasty. The same way Darkfall will be. I can tell you dont have any real experience with ffa pvp, and I doubt most of these fans do either. Itll be a rude awakening for sure. And it doesnt take 3000 people to wreak havoc in a noobie zone, all it takes is say 10 or 15 people who have skilled up faster than everyone else from playing non stop. Weve seen it before and we'll see it again. Good luck fans, you'll need it, this aint WoW.
Ok fair enough. We had the same thing in the newbie forrest outside East Britt bank.
I do however have experience with ffa pvp. I played UO from the last days of the dread lords in 1998 to a few months after AoS was released in 2003. I havent been cleanlooted and trashtalked in a mmo for 5 years and I miss that part.
What I don`t get, is why I didn`t play Shadowbane when UO changed from skill dependency to item dependency. It might have been bad word of mouth, just as some of you guys in here are pulling.
Honestly, do you really think gear will be hard to get in a game like DF?
You don`t have to scare away player with all this doomsday predictions. Why not focus on the good parts of ffa pvp and full-loot mmo like the rest of us? You clearly like it as much as the rest of us if you still play a game like Shadowbane.
-In Darkfall you will have PvP from the moment you leave your town. No need to do some boring leveling for days and weeks.
-You will loose your gear, but thats easy to replace. Your enemies also loose his gear, so you wont meet some awsome epic geared players.
-You`ll make better friends in DF than in other mmo`s because the community is dependent on eachother.
-If you manage to get past the newbie stage in a game like DF, you will play it for years and really enjoy yourself. Full-loot games like Darkfall will even give small things like mining excitment you havent felt for years.
-If you are after a game to make you relax after work or a mmo you can solo, then Darkfall isn`t for you.
I can`t wait to feel the joy of looting an enemy again and the pain of an enemy looting me. This is the pure essence of a real mmo.
You make it sound as though, when you get PKed you lose everything you have. Your character and all its items.
Wrong. On death, you lose everything on that character: His equips and everything in his bag. I don't think you'd take too much gold out in an area where you're planning on fighting. And if it's a hotspot area, I doubt you'll take your best gear in fear of being PKed.
You will most likely have more armor sets in your bank, along with gold - for buying new armor sets. Your character will still have all those skills you've leveled up. You won't 'start from scratch' like you have said.
Also, in these 'hotspot areas' (a popular area where PKers will likely be around because of this) aswell as PKers, there will likely be players classed as PKKers (Player Killer Killers), who help people getting killed and enjoy doing so.
When you die, it's not the end of the world.
You only lose the stuff you have on you. You obviously keep all skills and character stats, everything in your bank, etc.
_________ Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
People forget to remember usaully in games like this gear isn't the big focus like games such as WoW. Skills you build usually has the most influence on your performance in a fight rather than how geared you are. Gear is just some icing on the cake, that you can afford to lose and acquire again.
I think alot of this discussion stems from the fact that most here have only played WoW where gear is the progression.
Darkfall will probably turn out like the only decent "sandy" mmo out there: eve. A zone for carebears and a zone for hardcore players where if you dont have at least 10 well trained/ geared allies with you you'll get gang banged. Therefore only the nolife/no jobs or weird jobs ppl will be there.
Rdy for another goon/bob type of community?
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
If your dumb enough to get caught out hunting and lose all your stuff then it's more your fault for not being cautious enough in a dangerous world. Key word her DANGEROUS... not wimpy. Honestly there are so many other MMO's available for people that dont like PVP please go play those. We cant have every MMO like WOW or WAR or LOTRO... and would we really want them all to be?? I understand those that dont want full loot I really do but this game IS FULL LOOT! So dont play!
But the problem I have here, is that it seems more and more like Runescapes' PvP.
Which rewards the players that have the real life friends to play along with at all times.
Whats the point of a gear system, if it is onlt going to be taken unless you have real life friends that log on at the same time you do, to team up with 24/7 ?
Perhaps what the OP and many other Players would really like to see in a sandbox MMO is a quality sandbox style gameplay experience without PvP.
Problem is this: it will never happen now. The only developers that would take the financial risk in creating a sandbox MMO (in contrast to a linear themepark style) are doing so to also create a game in which PvP is at it's core. PvP MMOs that are not sandbox style suffer from a limitation of choices given to the Players on how to play the game. This puts a "collar" on PvP and keeps it from being as good and fulfilling as it can be in a game. Therefore if a PvP MMO is to work, it almost has to be a sandbox style, or have a good share of sandbox features.
The MMO Industry right now is suffering from two "speedbumps" to any Dev Team creating a PvE sandbox MMO...the first is SWG and all that mess, especially with how the Players responded, and secondly the success of the linear themepark MMO World of Warcraft. Almost all big Dev Teams are concentrating on safe, reliable MMO design formats, ones that stay away from the diehard and commited Sandbox MMO Players like me.
If you do not enjoy PvP and are looking for a sandbox PvE MMOG, then you will be waiting for at least another 5 years (my guess).
Sorry to be the pessimist, but this is IMHO about it. I am also looking for a quality sandbox style MMO that has no PvP and I will be waiting just like you.
On another note, Best regards to the Players that enjoy PvP. I hope that Darkfall delivers on most or all of it's promises and provides Players with the best PvP MMO experience you have ever had. You guys have been waiting long enough for a game more to your personal tastes in gaming.
I dunno Gardavil. Next year has some pretty interesting MMO's coming out like KOTOR, STO, SGW, and JGE. I think JGE has btoh PvP and PvE elements as well as open sandbox/linear quests.
Still, what one player rants about as being a total waste of time / time sink another player trully loves. If the OP is open to ideas and not just throwing out his idea of how BAD something is going to be without trying it. He may find the game has some potential.
As Gardavil suggested. It is hard to have a game designed around PvP that limits the player to specific choises. Look at some of the games out there now. WoW, WAR. Both limit you to what you can/cannot have as a skillset in the game. DF does not do this.
It balances the skills with each other and not based upon what the CLASS has to offer. Yes, you can have a spell caster wearing plate armor. He will be limited and slowed by this fact. However, it is supplimented with other skills it could negate the limitations. Makes the min/max cookie cutters hard to come by. Not impossible, just harder to flesh out.
It also gives EVERY Player the potential to be different/unique/better than any other player. Maybe you do not do well with the magic/melee class. I may and be better at it than you. You might also hit better with your weapon since you are pure melee. = balance.
AS far as the OP posting about being GANKED after hours of some time-sink. Well, all I can say is this so called TIME-SINK is in every game. How many times as a n00b have you been in an area that was devoid of mobs and then a respawn happened and you were just wiped. You try to come back into the area and the place is sick with mobs or it is camped by a named/epic mob. No way to get your stuff back. Can you say PvE gank??? What were the devs trying to get across there? that you are not safe even against PvE??
I am teh suk and PvP. I am not a PK and think that players who harrass others by stealing/ganking/PK/ whatever you want to call it are crap. However, they make a boring world interesting and make other players in game react to each other differently.
EXAMPLE: If you are not a PK you are not likly to run up to another player with a weapon showing. You will more than likely introduce yourself from a distance that would allow you to run from them should they turn out to be a PK. And, you may even put your weapon into a less threatening position to prove your intentions are anything but hostile.
So, do not harsh on a game that is different from the cookie cutter clones out there. I like to call the last 5 years of MMO developement the "Clone Wars" as damn near every game has cloned the WoW / EQ mold.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
4. There are no uber items. No ubershinies that you raid for 15 hours a day over a month long period. Like in EVE, you only use what you can afford to lose. That is really the number one rule in loot games.
Try explaining that with a series of intricate plays using hand puppets and some players still will not get it. There is the real problem.
I remember telling people to hit slimes in DDO with a WOODEN crappy item as it will degrade there uber sword very quickly. Did they listen ... ? Did they hell they just whined on the forums.
4. There are no uber items. No ubershinies that you raid for 15 hours a day over a month long period. Like in EVE, you only use what you can afford to lose. That is really the number one rule in loot games.
Try explaining that with a series of intricate plays using hand puppets and some players still will not get it. There is the real problem.
I remember telling people to hit slimes in DDO with a WOODEN crappy item as it will degrade there uber sword very quickly. Did they listen ... ? Did they hell they just whined on the forums.
LOL too funny, how can you play a D&D game and not know this..??
Op darkfall is not for you have fun with themeparks we Darkfall fans will have fun with our own nich hardcore pvp sandbox game.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Used to play Tibia from 2000-2007, 10% death penalty on total xp. With another whooping 10% chance on dropping every single item. And you always drop your backpack filled with loot...Sigh, carebears...Go play Hello Kitty or something.
Not to mention the thousands...no, millions of threads in games of class nerfs, buffs...Us humans have our flawes as well don't we. Only we didn't had a choice. We live with it, look where it got us..Carebears...sigh...spoiled everything..
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Comments
Learning to play guitar is work, you may enjoy it, but when you first start and youve played your fingers raw if not bloody, its definately work. Just beacuse its a hobby doesnt mean theres no work involved, the same can be said of any activity you enjoy, be it skateboarding, hockey, or even crocheting.
HAHA, are you for real Arcken?
You have changed from a troll to a hardcore PK in days. This is indeed a strange case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
Hmm... In what way can you hurt Darkfall when your Vapor don`t work. Are you trying to scare people to even try this game?
In what imaginary awsome guild are you a member? It have to be mega large to be able to take on 3000 players from an opposing faction at the goblinspawn 100 yards from it`s capital city.
Don`t let Arcken fever fantasy scare you away. Just check his old posts and have fun in Darkfall.
We are in for a ride, and you`ll gonna love it.
Im actually a member of Zhentil Keep, were an aussie guild mostly, have been around for 10+ years and have always preferred to play PvP games. We did very well in Shadowbane, Aoc, and are doing pretty well in Warhammer. What ffa pvp games have you played exactly?
Like I always tell people, you want a taste of Darkfalls community, go check out Shadowbane, its very cutthroat and nasty. The same way Darkfall will be. I can tell you dont have any real experience with ffa pvp, and I doubt most of these fans do either. Itll be a rude awakening for sure. And it doesnt take 3000 people to wreak havoc in a noobie zone, all it takes is say 10 or 15 people who have skilled up faster than everyone else from playing non stop. Weve seen it before and we'll see it again. Good luck fans, you'll need it, this aint WoW.
Pish posh. Ive met alot of nice people in shadowbane and in UO back in the day.
I play Shadowbane and it's alot of fun, getting wasted then one day wasting someone else (got my first 1v1 PK in Shadowbane yesterday). An open PvP enviroment with full looting prevents farming bots, even with open PvP in AoC there were Chinese farmers due to the fact they lost nothing if they were killed. Also with no reward for winning a fight people stoped PKing, I got bored of even killing farmers in AoC.
Whilst waiting for Darkfall I suggest you play Shadowbane, it's free and it's an example of how to make an open FFA PvP game that works. Getting PK'd might not be fun for you, but can you tell me that constantly killing NPCs for 3 hours is?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Ok fair enough. We had the same thing in the newbie forrest outside East Britt bank.
I do however have experience with ffa pvp. I played UO from the last days of the dread lords in 1998 to a few months after AoS was released in 2003. I havent been cleanlooted and trashtalked in a mmo for 5 years and I miss that part.
What I don`t get, is why I didn`t play Shadowbane when UO changed from skill dependency to item dependency. It might have been bad word of mouth, just as some of you guys in here are pulling.
Honestly, do you really think gear will be hard to get in a game like DF?
You don`t have to scare away player with all this doomsday predictions. Why not focus on the good parts of ffa pvp and full-loot mmo like the rest of us? You clearly like it as much as the rest of us if you still play a game like Shadowbane.
-In Darkfall you will have PvP from the moment you leave your town. No need to do some boring leveling for days and weeks.
-You will loose your gear, but thats easy to replace. Your enemies also loose his gear, so you wont meet some awsome epic geared players.
-You`ll make better friends in DF than in other mmo`s because the community is dependent on eachother.
-If you manage to get past the newbie stage in a game like DF, you will play it for years and really enjoy yourself. Full-loot games like Darkfall will even give small things like mining excitment you havent felt for years.
-If you are after a game to make you relax after work or a mmo you can solo, then Darkfall isn`t for you.
I can`t wait to feel the joy of looting an enemy again and the pain of an enemy looting me. This is the pure essence of a real mmo.
Having only read the OP's post:
You make it sound as though, when you get PKed you lose everything you have. Your character and all its items.
Wrong. On death, you lose everything on that character: His equips and everything in his bag. I don't think you'd take too much gold out in an area where you're planning on fighting. And if it's a hotspot area, I doubt you'll take your best gear in fear of being PKed.
You will most likely have more armor sets in your bank, along with gold - for buying new armor sets. Your character will still have all those skills you've leveled up. You won't 'start from scratch' like you have said.
Also, in these 'hotspot areas' (a popular area where PKers will likely be around because of this) aswell as PKers, there will likely be players classed as PKKers (Player Killer Killers), who help people getting killed and enjoy doing so.
When you die, it's not the end of the world.
You only lose the stuff you have on you. You obviously keep all skills and character stats, everything in your bank, etc.
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
People forget to remember usaully in games like this gear isn't the big focus like games such as WoW. Skills you build usually has the most influence on your performance in a fight rather than how geared you are. Gear is just some icing on the cake, that you can afford to lose and acquire again.
I think alot of this discussion stems from the fact that most here have only played WoW where gear is the progression.
Darkfall will probably turn out like the only decent "sandy" mmo out there: eve. A zone for carebears and a zone for hardcore players where if you dont have at least 10 well trained/ geared allies with you you'll get gang banged. Therefore only the nolife/no jobs or weird jobs ppl will be there.
Rdy for another goon/bob type of community?
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
Thats a very good idea get a char that specialises in hand to hand, no armor fighting and gank players, preferably noobs so they give up playing df.
I really cant wait to see the drama.
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
But the problem I have here, is that it seems more and more like Runescapes' PvP.
Which rewards the players that have the real life friends to play along with at all times.
Whats the point of a gear system, if it is onlt going to be taken unless you have real life friends that log on at the same time you do, to team up with 24/7 ?
Ok i skimmed through reall quick didnt find any actual facts so what kind of PvP loss system is there ?
Do you lose everything like in EvE online ?
Perhaps what the OP and many other Players would really like to see in a sandbox MMO is a quality sandbox style gameplay experience without PvP.
Problem is this: it will never happen now. The only developers that would take the financial risk in creating a sandbox MMO (in contrast to a linear themepark style) are doing so to also create a game in which PvP is at it's core. PvP MMOs that are not sandbox style suffer from a limitation of choices given to the Players on how to play the game. This puts a "collar" on PvP and keeps it from being as good and fulfilling as it can be in a game. Therefore if a PvP MMO is to work, it almost has to be a sandbox style, or have a good share of sandbox features.
The MMO Industry right now is suffering from two "speedbumps" to any Dev Team creating a PvE sandbox MMO...the first is SWG and all that mess, especially with how the Players responded, and secondly the success of the linear themepark MMO World of Warcraft. Almost all big Dev Teams are concentrating on safe, reliable MMO design formats, ones that stay away from the diehard and commited Sandbox MMO Players like me.
If you do not enjoy PvP and are looking for a sandbox PvE MMOG, then you will be waiting for at least another 5 years (my guess).
Sorry to be the pessimist, but this is IMHO about it. I am also looking for a quality sandbox style MMO that has no PvP and I will be waiting just like you.
On another note, Best regards to the Players that enjoy PvP. I hope that Darkfall delivers on most or all of it's promises and provides Players with the best PvP MMO experience you have ever had. You guys have been waiting long enough for a game more to your personal tastes in gaming.
I dunno Gardavil. Next year has some pretty interesting MMO's coming out like KOTOR, STO, SGW, and JGE. I think JGE has btoh PvP and PvE elements as well as open sandbox/linear quests.
Still, what one player rants about as being a total waste of time / time sink another player trully loves. If the OP is open to ideas and not just throwing out his idea of how BAD something is going to be without trying it. He may find the game has some potential.
As Gardavil suggested. It is hard to have a game designed around PvP that limits the player to specific choises. Look at some of the games out there now. WoW, WAR. Both limit you to what you can/cannot have as a skillset in the game. DF does not do this.
It balances the skills with each other and not based upon what the CLASS has to offer. Yes, you can have a spell caster wearing plate armor. He will be limited and slowed by this fact. However, it is supplimented with other skills it could negate the limitations. Makes the min/max cookie cutters hard to come by. Not impossible, just harder to flesh out.
It also gives EVERY Player the potential to be different/unique/better than any other player. Maybe you do not do well with the magic/melee class. I may and be better at it than you. You might also hit better with your weapon since you are pure melee. = balance.
AS far as the OP posting about being GANKED after hours of some time-sink. Well, all I can say is this so called TIME-SINK is in every game. How many times as a n00b have you been in an area that was devoid of mobs and then a respawn happened and you were just wiped. You try to come back into the area and the place is sick with mobs or it is camped by a named/epic mob. No way to get your stuff back. Can you say PvE gank??? What were the devs trying to get across there? that you are not safe even against PvE??
I am teh suk and PvP. I am not a PK and think that players who harrass others by stealing/ganking/PK/ whatever you want to call it are crap. However, they make a boring world interesting and make other players in game react to each other differently.
EXAMPLE: If you are not a PK you are not likly to run up to another player with a weapon showing. You will more than likely introduce yourself from a distance that would allow you to run from them should they turn out to be a PK. And, you may even put your weapon into a less threatening position to prove your intentions are anything but hostile.
So, do not harsh on a game that is different from the cookie cutter clones out there. I like to call the last 5 years of MMO developement the "Clone Wars" as damn near every game has cloned the WoW / EQ mold.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
its going to have to be a balance between
time invested in attaining loot
and
amount of drama created by each battle
because the drama of this type of game is created in the knowledge that you will lose things important to you if you die
dying is a bad bad thing, you will need to win
....
I think i'll go out here and suggest that everyone should practice their skills in a neutral way or will no armor or with a friend for practice
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
Try explaining that with a series of intricate plays using hand puppets and some players still will not get it. There is the real problem.
I remember telling people to hit slimes in DDO with a WOODEN crappy item as it will degrade there uber sword very quickly. Did they listen ... ? Did they hell they just whined on the forums.
Try explaining that with a series of intricate plays using hand puppets and some players still will not get it. There is the real problem.
I remember telling people to hit slimes in DDO with a WOODEN crappy item as it will degrade there uber sword very quickly. Did they listen ... ? Did they hell they just whined on the forums.
LOL too funny, how can you play a D&D game and not know this..??
Dont Feed The Troll.
All questions regarding- being constantly ganked and "losing hours of work" were answered SEVERAL times, and asked again and again.
Fuck you trolls,just for the sake of fuck,
Close this Topic for the love of God.
Op darkfall is not for you have fun with themeparks we Darkfall fans will have fun with our own nich hardcore pvp sandbox game.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
PvP these days, kill someone->pk points-> Loot? nothing.... carebears..they screwed gaming.....
Used to play Tibia from 2000-2007, 10% death penalty on total xp. With another whooping 10% chance on dropping every single item. And you always drop your backpack filled with loot...Sigh, carebears...Go play Hello Kitty or something.
Not to mention the thousands...no, millions of threads in games of class nerfs, buffs...Us humans have our flawes as well don't we. Only we didn't had a choice. We live with it, look where it got us..Carebears...sigh...spoiled everything..
Your SO hardcore.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
SO hardcore like quick draw mcgraw... F what you heard you aint heard this before