Originally posted by atziluth Talk about revisionist history. Anyone can take a look at the thread history and see you and Aragon were implying breaking the NDA would make the person an EU fugitive. You were also implying that the persons money would be taken to cover damages. Now suddenly you think Aventurine would not come after the person? You completely lost any credibility with this post... you do realize this right? You for a third time provided a link with no relevance to the issue at hand. JLO... really you are sinking to a hack sing/actress for supportive evidence? Until you come back with an exctual BETA tester that has been charged or sued you have no basis for your argument. The simple truth is if the document is legit it would never hold up in court. I will bring this up one last time... Please explain how the NDA is valid when Aventurine requires screen shots for bug reports. Since the document clearly states even making a SS is a violation they have removed its validity. You refuse to acknowledge this part because you have no excuse for it. Lick your wounds and pick an argument you can win. You have been repeatedly shown to be incorrect in this thread... time to let it go and move on. If the open beta date is true, then this whole discussion is irrelevent.
How could I provide evidence of somebody being prosecuted for video game NDA breach when it has never happened, as you well know? This an example of a successful prosecution of somebody for breaching an NDA, which is exactly what was asked for. It's not important if it was a video game or not, it's same law. Clearly if the person in the link provided did not obey the court judgment it would have been taken further and eventually lead to the situation described. I didn't ever say Aventurine would do anything, I said that they could, you insisted that they could not.
As for the last part can you demonstrate how this would invalidate the NDA under Greek law please? I have provided evidence to back up my statements I think that it's about time that you did as well. Just saying that it will not hold up in court is weaksauce.
I'll give you a head start, the contract says "xxxx will not make or display any screenshot of xxxxx during the beta test unless requested to do so by xxxxx"
How could I provide evidence of somebody being prosecuted for video game NDA breach when it has never happened, as you well know?
So you admit that no one has ever been prosecuted or sued over breaching a video game NDA? Good. Saves the rest of us the hassle.
What you don't seem to get here is that the JLo case you cited is her suing an ex-husband for violating a court order that he signed. That's not the same thing as a beta tester breaching an NDA by posting screenshots or posting a blog about a game. Not by a longshot.
I've gone back through this thread and read it and I finally see the disconnect and why you can't seem to grasp the issue. You're acting as if any lawsuit by Aventurine is a foregone conclusion, and that they'd immediately be in the right, with a Greek court granting them any judgement they want against anyone, no matter where that person lived, and because someone posted screenshots or blogged about the DF beta.
It's not nearly that simple.
In order for that inital lawsuit to have any merit, they'd first have to find the beta tester and prove that Greek law applied over any other laws anywhere else, giving them the jurisdiction to go after that player in the first place. Then they'd have to show actual harm, no matter what that flimsy joke of an NDA says, in order to get some sort of judgement against that player. Plus, you're assuming that the player wouldn't fight against the suit by bringing in their own legal counsel, and that any court, even in Greece, would agree to hear the case in the first place.
Those are an awful lot of hurdles to jump over, and for a screenshot or a blog post, or any kind of minor breach of an NDA, it simply wouldn't be worth the time and money that would cost Aventurine.
An independant company that has no marketing budget and no major publisher backing has the money to pursue legal action against individuals that may be overseas or in different countries.
An independant company that has no marketing budget and no major publisher backing has the money to pursue legal action against individuals that may be overseas or in different countries.
The logic, it burns.
you do forget the govermeant has help fund darkfall dev SO >.> iw ould say the greek govermeant could persue it if they wanted
Originally posted by Lidane Yeah, right. As if a citizen of any other country in the EU wouldn't fight that jurisdiction clause tooth and nail. If that's the real NDA, it's a joke, even in the EU. It wouldn't be held up in court because anyone outside of Greece would fight it, and would fight the notion that they, as a citizen of whatever other country are somehow beholden to Greek law and must therefore pay money to a game company.
Anyone in the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.
Excuse me for saying this but are you completely and utterly insane? Show me, or give a reference, to the law where it says people can be deported between EU countries with no proof of committing a crime? Then if you do this, which you cant, then further show me an example where someone have had this happen to them because of breaching an NDA (which is NOT a guaranteed legal contract by default).
The link you have shown is regarding GENOCIDE comitted by Nazis during second world war. Are you comparing that to breach of NDA for a video game?? Again, are you insane?
This has been said many times before but an NDA is not the law. They have to go to court and a judge must validate it and then Adventurine has to prove that whoever they alleged breaking their NDA has actually done so. This is highly unlikely that will happen, at most what will happen is that the person will be kicked out of beta and thats it.
Actually to say "it NEVER HAPPENED". is also a falacy of assumption, since we can't prove it happened, nor can we disprove it happened... sort of like proving god exists, and also proving god doesn't exist... either way we just don't know.
Yeah, except when talking about someone being sued there would be a record of it somewhere.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
An independant company that has no marketing budget and no major publisher backing has the money to pursue legal action against individuals that may be overseas or in different countries.
The logic, it burns.
you do forget the govermeant has help fund darkfall dev SO >.> iw ould say the greek govermeant could persue it if they wanted
Come on downtoearth... that is pure BS and you know it.
Wow... 187 posts about something completely fabricated. I love the Darkfall forums.
You can argue legalities all you want but the fact remains that unless there's some proof that someone who does not work for the company was actually fined because of a video game NDA breach... it NEVER HAPPENED.
Actually to say "it NEVER HAPPENED". is also a falacy of assumption, since we can't prove it happened, nor can we disprove it happened... sort of like proving god exists, and also proving god doesn't exist... either way we just don't know.
Using God as an example in this instance was priceless. I loved it. It made me laugh for nearly 4.3 seconds! Really. I am beginning to very nearly almost kind of like you.
Excuse me for saying this but are you completely and utterly insane? Show me, or give a reference, to the law where it says people can be deported between EU countries with no proof of committing a crime? Then if you do this, which you cant, then further show me an example where someone have had this happen to them because of breaching an NDA (which is NOT a guaranteed legal contract by default). The link you have shown is regarding GENOCIDE comitted by Nazis during second world war. Are you comparing that to breach of NDA for a video game?? Again, are you insane? This has been said many times before but an NDA is not the law. They have to go to court and a judge must validate it and then Adventurine has to prove that whoever they alleged breaking their NDA has actually done so. This is highly unlikely that will happen, at most what will happen is that the person will be kicked out of beta and thats it.
Just a point of order regarding the highlighted text.
Here in the US, if you are not a citizen, our government can arrest, detain, deport you without ever giving you a trial or proving you are a criminal. I suppose the same would hold true in some other countries as well.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Excuse me for saying this but are you completely and utterly insane? Show me, or give a reference, to the law where it says people can be deported between EU countries with no proof of committing a crime? Then if you do this, which you cant, then further show me an example where someone have had this happen to them because of breaching an NDA (which is NOT a guaranteed legal contract by default). The link you have shown is regarding GENOCIDE comitted by Nazis during second world war. Are you comparing that to breach of NDA for a video game?? Again, are you insane? This has been said many times before but an NDA is not the law. They have to go to court and a judge must validate it and then Adventurine has to prove that whoever they alleged breaking their NDA has actually done so. This is highly unlikely that will happen, at most what will happen is that the person will be kicked out of beta and thats it.
Just a point of order regarding the highlighted text.
Here in the US, if you are not a citizen, our government can arrest, detain, deport you without ever giving you a trial or proving you are a criminal. I suppose the same would hold true in some other countries as well.
So that's what all those illegal aliens are doing!
They are signing up for video game Betas and breaking their NDAs! Dirty buggers! Deport the lot of them I say.
If they are willing to commit such a haneous criminal act as BREAKING A VIDEO GAME NDA (almost gives me shivers just writing it down!) who knows what crimes they are capable of.
How could I provide evidence of somebody being prosecuted for video game NDA breach when it has never happened, as you well know? This an example of a successful prosecution of somebody for breaching an NDA, which is exactly what was asked for. It's not important if it was a video game or not, it's same law. Clearly if the person in the link provided did not obey the court judgment it would have been taken further and eventually lead to the situation described. I didn't ever say Aventurine would do anything, I said that they could, you insisted that they could not. As for the last part can you demonstrate how this would invalidate the NDA under Greek law please? I have provided evidence to back up my statements I think that it's about time that you did as well. Just saying that it will not hold up in court is weaksauce. I'll give you a head start, the contract says "xxxx will not make or display any screenshot of xxxxx during the beta test unless requested to do so by xxxxx"
You readily admit that there is no precedent yet keep plugging along. If the NDA was as completely legally binding as YOU have claimed then there would be precedent. There have been millions of breaches of these types of contracts specifically beta NDAs. Yet there has never been a legal prosecution or civil case... have you EVER stopped to ask why? I mean if these NDAs are so legally binding the whole MMO industry could be financed by the money won in litigation over these events.
Sorry, every reference you have used has NO relevence. To say that it is all the same law is frankly naive. Lawyers specialize in contract law because there are so many governing every scenario you can think of. Each contract is subject to various laws depending on the type and scope of that contract. To just make a blanket statement like you did proves you know absolutely nothing of this subject.
The JLO issue was not a standard NDA... it was part of a divorce settlement and subject to laws that a beta NDA clearly is not. It was also not international or greek law... So how exactly are they the same as any other nondivorce NDA?
Again you have provided 0 proof to back up your argument. My proof is easy, any lack of precedent shows that companies simply do not legally persue NDA violators. What they tend to do is ban a person from beta and call it a day. Again show me an instance where (and lets be specific here) a gaming company has sued a player for an NDA breech. Until you can prove that your argument is invalid.
As to this line in the contract....
"xxxx will not make or display any screenshot of xxxxx during the beta test unless requested to do so by xxxxx"
You could argue this two ways. First, that any SS taken by a tester is at the request of aventurine due to the generic request for bug information. This would make every SS authorized through the NDA making this section of the contract moot. Second, it could also be argued that the proceedure for reporting bugs violates the letter of the contract because it does not require a tester to notify Aventuring BEFORE taking the SS to get authorization. Here is the kicker though... The NDA also says a tester has to take "reasonable" precautions to prevent leaks. A defendent could argue that the information was stolen from their computer by a hacker/virus breech that was not caught by their antivirus. This would be considered a "reasonable" attempt to secure the computer information and protecting the defendent in a civil case.
Aventurine would also have the burden to first prove that the SS or other information was leaked by the tester in a civil trial. If they have nothing but circumstancial evidence the case would most likely be thrown out. The ability to trace this information is almost impossible with any type of certainty. The time and money spent trying to claim damages would far excede any claims they may win.
That is why it is smoke and mirrors. Could it go to trial... yes. The chances of the company winning would be remote and the costs would far outway any benifits. The civil trial would also not make the defendent a fugitive like has been claimed previously.
As to Modern Greek law, I welcome any Greek lawyer to way in. The information on Greek law (modern) is sparse to say the least. They have a court system with jurors, but how civil cases are handled is unclear. I welcome you to find the information to back up your argument as well. Neither one of us has actually provided proof and all of your citations did not relate to contract law or were not related to Greek law.
So the best you could claim is that neither of us know precisely how this would play out in a Greek civil case. What I can tell you is that it would be more complicated as international laws would apply regardless of what is stated in the NDA. I under American law would not be worried about violating this NDA in the least... It does not mean I would do so, it just does not warrant any concern. To blow this issue up into fugatives and having all assetts siezed is patently absurd.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
How could I provide evidence of somebody being prosecuted for video game NDA breach when it has never happened, as you well know? This an example of a successful prosecution of somebody for breaching an NDA, which is exactly what was asked for. It's not important if it was a video game or not, it's same law. Clearly if the person in the link provided did not obey the court judgment it would have been taken further and eventually lead to the situation described. I didn't ever say Aventurine would do anything, I said that they could, you insisted that they could not. As for the last part can you demonstrate how this would invalidate the NDA under Greek law please? I have provided evidence to back up my statements I think that it's about time that you did as well. Just saying that it will not hold up in court is weaksauce. I'll give you a head start, the contract says "xxxx will not make or display any screenshot of xxxxx during the beta test unless requested to do so by xxxxx"
You readily admit that there is no precedent yet keep plugging along. If the NDA was as completely legally binding as YOU have claimed then there would be precedent. There have been millions of breaches of these types of contracts specifically beta NDAs. Yet there has never been a legal prosecution or civil case... have you EVER stopped to ask why? I mean if these NDAs are so legally binding the whole MMO industry could be financed by the money won in litigation over these events.
Sorry, every reference you have used has NO relevence. To say that it is all the same law is frankly naive. Lawyers specialize in contract law because there are so many governing every scenario you can think of. Each contract is subject to various laws depending on the type and scope of that contract. To just make a blanket statement like you did proves you know absolutely nothing of this subject.
The JLO issue was not a standard NDA... it was part of a divorce settlement and subject to laws that a beta NDA clearly is not. It was also not international or greek law... So how exactly are they the same as any other nondivorce NDA?
Again you have provided 0 proof to back up your argument. My proof is easy, any lack of precedent shows that companies simply do not legally persue NDA violators. What they tend to do is ban a person from beta and call it a day. Again show me an instance where (and lets be specific here) a gaming company has sued a player for an NDA breech. Until you can prove that your argument is invalid.
As to this line in the contract....
"xxxx will not make or display any screenshot of xxxxx during the beta test unless requested to do so by xxxxx"
You could argue this two ways. First, that any SS taken by a tester is at the request of aventurine due to the generic request for bug information. This would make every SS authorized through the NDA making this section of the contract moot. Second, it could also be argued that the proceedure for reporting bugs violates the letter of the contract because it does not require a tester to notify Aventuring BEFORE taking the SS to get authorization. Here is the kicker though... The NDA also says a tester has to take "reasonable" precautions to prevent leaks. A defendent could argue that the information was stolen from their computer by a hacker/virus breech that was not caught by their antivirus. This would be considered a "reasonable" attempt to secure the computer information and protecting the defendent in a civil case.
Aventurine would also have the burden to first prove that the SS or other information was leaked by the tester in a civil trial. If they have nothing but circumstancial evidence the case would most likely be thrown out. The ability to trace this information is almost impossible with any type of certainty. The time and money spent trying to claim damages would far excede any claims they may win.
That is why it is smoke and mirrors. Could it go to trial... yes. The chances of the company winning would be remote and the costs would far outway any benifits. The civil trial would also not make the defendent a fugitive like has been claimed previously.
As to Modern Greek law, I welcome any Greek lawyer to way in. The information on Greek law (modern) is sparse to say the least. They have a court system with jurors, but how civil cases are handled is unclear. I welcome you to find the information to back up your argument as well. Neither one of us has actually provided proof and all of your citations did not relate to contract law or were not related to Greek law.
So the best you could claim is that neither of us know precisely how this would play out in a Greek civil case. What I can tell you is that it would be more complicated as international laws would apply regardless of what is stated in the NDA. I under American law would not be worried about violating this NDA in the least... It does not mean I would do so, it just does not warrant any concern. To blow this issue up into fugatives and having all assetts siezed is patently absurd.
Downtoearth, do you ever have anything worth saying? You always throw out things like the above references, but you never actually bring proof or logic to a discussion. You say you have all this knowledge, but you never link any proof.
And no he doesn't know Greek law that's why he asked for someone with the knowledge to speak up. Instead you throw out nonsense as usual.
Originally posted by downtoearth except you dont know greek laws do you
Good thing I can always count on you to bring reason to any of these debates. I look forward to your legal expertise pertaining to Greek contract law. Your track record has been proven so accurate up to this point we could almost take your one line comments as gospel.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Excuse me for saying this but are you completely and utterly insane? Show me, or give a reference, to the law where it says people can be deported between EU countries with no proof of committing a crime? Then if you do this, which you cant, then further show me an example where someone have had this happen to them because of breaching an NDA (which is NOT a guaranteed legal contract by default). The link you have shown is regarding GENOCIDE comitted by Nazis during second world war. Are you comparing that to breach of NDA for a video game?? Again, are you insane? This has been said many times before but an NDA is not the law. They have to go to court and a judge must validate it and then Adventurine has to prove that whoever they alleged breaking their NDA has actually done so. This is highly unlikely that will happen, at most what will happen is that the person will be kicked out of beta and thats it.
It's called a European arrest warrant. I have already explained.
Excuse me for saying this but are you completely and utterly insane? Show me, or give a reference, to the law where it says people can be deported between EU countries with no proof of committing a crime? Then if you do this, which you cant, then further show me an example where someone have had this happen to them because of breaching an NDA (which is NOT a guaranteed legal contract by default). The link you have shown is regarding GENOCIDE comitted by Nazis during second world war. Are you comparing that to breach of NDA for a video game?? Again, are you insane? This has been said many times before but an NDA is not the law. They have to go to court and a judge must validate it and then Adventurine has to prove that whoever they alleged breaking their NDA has actually done so. This is highly unlikely that will happen, at most what will happen is that the person will be kicked out of beta and thats it.
It's called a European arrest warrant. I have already explained.
Actually you are wrong on this as well. Here is the regulation between EU arrest warrents.
"A European Arrest Warrant, valid throughout the European Union has replaced extradition procedures between Member States of the enlarged Europe. Such a warrant may be issued by a national issuing judicial authority if the person whose return is sought is accused of an offence for which the maximum period of the penalty is at least a year in prison, or if he or she has been sentenced to a prison term of at least four months."
So no they cannot extradite you without first bringing charges that would result in at least a years incarceration or has already been sentenced to 4 months. Since a civil case does not carry any jail time no EU warrant could be issued. Even if the person defaulted on payments after a civil case was lost they would still be ok if Greek law does not carry a 1 year or more sentence for the violation.
So once again you are wrong. Shall we continue?
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
How could I provide evidence of somebody being prosecuted for video game NDA breach when it has never happened, as you well know? This an example of a successful prosecution of somebody for breaching an NDA, which is exactly what was asked for. It's not important if it was a video game or not, it's same law. Clearly if the person in the link provided did not obey the court judgment it would have been taken further and eventually lead to the situation described. I didn't ever say Aventurine would do anything, I said that they could, you insisted that they could not. As for the last part can you demonstrate how this would invalidate the NDA under Greek law please? I have provided evidence to back up my statements I think that it's about time that you did as well. Just saying that it will not hold up in court is weaksauce. I'll give you a head start, the contract says "xxxx will not make or display any screenshot of xxxxx during the beta test unless requested to do so by xxxxx"
You readily admit that there is no precedent yet keep plugging along. If the NDA was as completely legally binding as YOU have claimed then there would be precedent. There have been millions of breaches of these types of contracts specifically beta NDAs. Yet there has never been a legal prosecution or civil case... have you EVER stopped to ask why? I mean if these NDAs are so legally binding the whole MMO industry could be financed by the money won in litigation over these events.
Blah blah....
All nonsense, I have clealy showed you a case of somebody being successfully sued for breaching an NDA, the implications for that person if they didn't pay the damages are obvious, the court would not let it lie. I have shown you a precedent in a highly publicised and clear example. All you have done is speculate that you don't think that the contract would hold of in court, I'm sorry but you have no idea and I would assume that they would use a tried and tested NDA from a law firm. Provide evidence to back up your statement which isn't just your own speculations or admit your wrong, people have been sued for NDA and it would be become a criminal matter if they just ignore any court judgment.
Actually you are wrong on this as well. Here is the regulation between EU arrest warrents. "A European Arrest Warrant, valid throughout the European Union has replaced extradition procedures between Member States of the enlarged Europe. Such a warrant may be issued by a national issuing judicial authority if the person whose return is sought is accused of an offence for which the maximum period of the penalty is at least a year in prison, or if he or she has been sentenced to a prison term of at least four months." So no they cannot extradite you without first bringing charges that would result in at least a years incarceration or has already been sentenced to 4 months. Since a civil case does not carry any jail time no EU warrant could be issued. Even if the person defaulted on payments after a civil case was lost they would still be ok if Greek law does not carry a 1 year or more sentence for the violation. So once again you are wrong. Shall we continue?
I am not wrong as if you were disobaying a court order it would be a criminal offence. A judge just needs to apply for it.
Excuse me for saying this but are you completely and utterly insane? Show me, or give a reference, to the law where it says people can be deported between EU countries with no proof of committing a crime? Then if you do this, which you cant, then further show me an example where someone have had this happen to them because of breaching an NDA (which is NOT a guaranteed legal contract by default). The link you have shown is regarding GENOCIDE comitted by Nazis during second world war. Are you comparing that to breach of NDA for a video game?? Again, are you insane? This has been said many times before but an NDA is not the law. They have to go to court and a judge must validate it and then Adventurine has to prove that whoever they alleged breaking their NDA has actually done so. This is highly unlikely that will happen, at most what will happen is that the person will be kicked out of beta and thats it.
It's called a European arrest warrant. I have already explained.
Actually you are wrong on this as well. Here is the regulation between EU arrest warrents.
"A European Arrest Warrant, valid throughout the European Union has replaced extradition procedures between Member States of the enlarged Europe. Such a warrant may be issued by a national issuing judicial authority if the person whose return is sought is accused of an offence for which the maximum period of the penalty is at least a year in prison, or if he or she has been sentenced to a prison term of at least four months."
So no they cannot extradite you without first bringing charges that would result in at least a years incarceration or has already been sentenced to 4 months. Since a civil case does not carry any jail time no EU warrant could be issued. Even if the person defaulted on payments after a civil case was lost they would still be ok if Greek law does not carry a 1 year or more sentence for the violation.
So once again you are wrong. Shall we continue?
Here's an interesting blogg on European Arrest Warrant.
All nonsense, I have clealy showed you a case of somebody being successfully sued for breaching an NDA, the implications for that person if they didn't pay the damages are obvious, the court would not let if lie. I have shown you a precedent in a highly publicised and clear example. All you have done is speculate that you don't think that the contract would hold of in court, I'm sorry but you have no idea and I would assume that they would use a tried and tested NDA from a law firm. Provide evidence to back up your statement which isn't just your own speculations or admit your wrong, people have been sued for NDA and it would be become a criminal matter if they just any court judgment.
Do not confuse your lack of desire to read my lengthy post with any vindication of your argument. You have proved nothing. The few links you provided had nothing to do with the topic at hand (as has been repeatedly stated). The laws are not the "same" as you state and show a complete lack of understand of laws in general. You constantly confuse civil litigation with criminal. You were wrong on how EU warrants work.
Pretty much your whole premise is wrong. Neither one of us know precisely how Greek law would treat a game NDA. The notion that the Greek government and the whole EU would hunt a violator down like some fugitive is comical.
NDAs especially for betas are there to scare people (seems to have worked on you). Their real power is to prevent these issues from ever happening. The legal muscle of these documents is suspect at best and the amount in damages would not make it worth any companies time to persue legal action. The fact that not one tester has ever been sued proves this fact.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
All nonsense, I have clealy showed you a case of somebody being successfully sued for breaching an NDA, the implications for that person if they didn't pay the damages are obvious, the court would not let if lie. I have shown you a precedent in a highly publicised and clear example. All you have done is speculate that you don't think that the contract would hold of in court, I'm sorry but you have no idea and I would assume that they would use a tried and tested NDA from a law firm. Provide evidence to back up your statement which isn't just your own speculations or admit your wrong, people have been sued for NDA and it would be become a criminal matter if they just any court judgment.
Do not confuse your lack of desire to read my lengthy post with any vindication of your argument. You have proved nothing. The few links you provided had nothing to do with the topic at hand (as has been repeatedly stated). The laws are not the "same" as you state and show a complete lack of understand of laws in general. You constantly confuse civil litigation with criminal. You were wrong on how EU warrants work.
Pretty much your whole premise is wrong. Neither one of us know precisely how Greek law would treat a game NDA. The notion that the Greek government and the whole EU would hunt a violator down like some fugitive is comical.
NDAs especially for betas are there to scare people (seems to have worked on you). Their real power is to prevent these issues from ever happening. The legal muscle of these documents is suspect at best and the amount in damages would not make it worth any companies time to persue legal action. The fact that not one tester has ever been sued proves this fact.
I have read your posts all of it is your own opinion, whilst I have provided clear real world examples of NDA law in action. You can deny it as much as you want but as I have shown people are sued over breach of contract after signing NDA's. I don't know what you failing to understand about the obvious implications of ignoring any civil judgement made against you sooner or later it would turn into a criminal prosecution.
All nonsense, I have clealy showed you a case of somebody being successfully sued for breaching an NDA, the implications for that person if they didn't pay the damages are obvious, the court would not let if lie. I have shown you a precedent in a highly publicised and clear example. All you have done is speculate that you don't think that the contract would hold of in court, I'm sorry but you have no idea and I would assume that they would use a tried and tested NDA from a law firm. Provide evidence to back up your statement which isn't just your own speculations or admit your wrong, people have been sued for NDA and it would be become a criminal matter if they just any court judgment.
Do not confuse your lack of desire to read my lengthy post with any vindication of your argument. You have proved nothing. The few links you provided had nothing to do with the topic at hand (as has been repeatedly stated). The laws are not the "same" as you state and show a complete lack of understand of laws in general. You constantly confuse civil litigation with criminal. You were wrong on how EU warrants work.
Pretty much your whole premise is wrong. Neither one of us know precisely how Greek law would treat a game NDA. The notion that the Greek government and the whole EU would hunt a violator down like some fugitive is comical.
NDAs especially for betas are there to scare people (seems to have worked on you). Their real power is to prevent these issues from ever happening. The legal muscle of these documents is suspect at best and the amount in damages would not make it worth any companies time to persue legal action. The fact that not one tester has ever been sued proves this fact.
"“European arrest warrant” means a warrant, order or decision of a judicial authority of a Member State, issued under such laws as give effect to the Framework Decision in that Member State, for the arrest and surrender by the State to that Member State of a person in respect of an offence committed or alleged to have been committed by him or her under the law of that Member State;"
Actually you are wrong on this as well. Here is the regulation between EU arrest warrents. "A European Arrest Warrant, valid throughout the European Union has replaced extradition procedures between Member States of the enlarged Europe. Such a warrant may be issued by a national issuing judicial authority if the person whose return is sought is accused of an offence for which the maximum period of the penalty is at least a year in prison, or if he or she has been sentenced to a prison term of at least four months." So no they cannot extradite you without first bringing charges that would result in at least a years incarceration or has already been sentenced to 4 months. Since a civil case does not carry any jail time no EU warrant could be issued. Even if the person defaulted on payments after a civil case was lost they would still be ok if Greek law does not carry a 1 year or more sentence for the violation. So once again you are wrong. Shall we continue?
I am not wrong as if you were disobaying a court order it would be a criminal offence. A judge just needs to apply for it.
Did you even bother reading it?
No EU court can file a EU warrant for a crime carrying a term of less then 1 year. There ARE restrictions to the EU warrants. A court cannot just issue one without charges being filed.
I am done with you as clearly your comprehension of this material is lacking. You keep being scared that someone will take you and all of your assets away without due process. What a wonderful world that must be to live in.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Originally posted by atziluth Did you even bother reading it? No EU court can file a EU warrant for a crime carrying a term of less then 1 year. There ARE restrictions to the EU warrants. A court cannot just issue one without charges being filed. I am done with you as clearly your comprehension of this material is lacking. You keep being scared that someone will take you and all of your assets away without due process. What a wonderful world that must be to live in.
Yes I did read it and chances of such a thing happening are almost none whatsoever. Why would I be scared I haven't signed any NDA's and it very unlikely even if I did that anyone would bother persuing me over it. However it is not the case as you stated that it is impossible. They probably wouldn't use EAW but there also many other methods of making you pay the damages or exacting retribution against you. You can be sued for NDA breach of contract and you could not just ignore it if they attempted to do so.
Originally posted by atziluth Did you even bother reading it? No EU court can file a EU warrant for a crime carrying a term of less then 1 year. There ARE restrictions to the EU warrants. A court cannot just issue one without charges being filed. I am done with you as clearly your comprehension of this material is lacking. You keep being scared that someone will take you and all of your assets away without due process. What a wonderful world that must be to live in.
Yes I did read it and chances of such a thing happening are almost none whatsoever. However it is not the case as you stated that it is impossible. They probably wouldn't use EAW but there also many other methods of making you pay the damages or exacting retribution against you. You can be sued for NDA breach of contract and you could not just ignore it if they attempted to do so.
Please reference where I said it would be impossible for Aventurine to attempt a civil suit against a beta tester. I said that with the wording of the NDA it would be extremely difficult to prove damages. You can sue anyone now without any real cause so it is never impossible.
I have been talking about civil cases this whole time. I have repeated said if a tester does not fight the CIVIL case they would be an idiot. Aventurine's NDA is badly worded and has unreasonable expectation which would likely invalidate it in a civil case.
This would never become criminal because the chances of Aventurine winning any damages in a civil case are incredibly remote. Even much better worded NDAs do not have a good civil track record. That is why it is highly doubtful that Aventurine would ever persue a civil case against a tester.
So to recap....
There has never been a successful NDA civil suit pertaining to game testing.
The NDA wording is abhorrently bad.
Aventurine would have difficulty proving damages.
Even if damages were proven the extent would be minor making the monetary judgement low.
It would be unprofitable for Aventurine to persue a civil suit against a tester because of the above.
Aventurine is extremely unlikely to try any civil action against any tester.
Because of the above most NDAs are scare tactics rather then actual viable legal contracts.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Comments
How could I provide evidence of somebody being prosecuted for video game NDA breach when it has never happened, as you well know? This an example of a successful prosecution of somebody for breaching an NDA, which is exactly what was asked for. It's not important if it was a video game or not, it's same law. Clearly if the person in the link provided did not obey the court judgment it would have been taken further and eventually lead to the situation described. I didn't ever say Aventurine would do anything, I said that they could, you insisted that they could not.
As for the last part can you demonstrate how this would invalidate the NDA under Greek law please? I have provided evidence to back up my statements I think that it's about time that you did as well. Just saying that it will not hold up in court is weaksauce.
I'll give you a head start, the contract says "xxxx will not make or display any screenshot of xxxxx during the beta test unless requested to do so by xxxxx"
So you admit that no one has ever been prosecuted or sued over breaching a video game NDA? Good. Saves the rest of us the hassle.
What you don't seem to get here is that the JLo case you cited is her suing an ex-husband for violating a court order that he signed. That's not the same thing as a beta tester breaching an NDA by posting screenshots or posting a blog about a game. Not by a longshot.
I've gone back through this thread and read it and I finally see the disconnect and why you can't seem to grasp the issue. You're acting as if any lawsuit by Aventurine is a foregone conclusion, and that they'd immediately be in the right, with a Greek court granting them any judgement they want against anyone, no matter where that person lived, and because someone posted screenshots or blogged about the DF beta.
It's not nearly that simple.
In order for that inital lawsuit to have any merit, they'd first have to find the beta tester and prove that Greek law applied over any other laws anywhere else, giving them the jurisdiction to go after that player in the first place. Then they'd have to show actual harm, no matter what that flimsy joke of an NDA says, in order to get some sort of judgement against that player. Plus, you're assuming that the player wouldn't fight against the suit by bringing in their own legal counsel, and that any court, even in Greece, would agree to hear the case in the first place.
Those are an awful lot of hurdles to jump over, and for a screenshot or a blog post, or any kind of minor breach of an NDA, it simply wouldn't be worth the time and money that would cost Aventurine.
An independant company that has no marketing budget and no major publisher backing has the money to pursue legal action against individuals that may be overseas or in different countries.
The logic, it burns.
you do forget the govermeant has help fund darkfall dev SO >.> iw ould say the greek govermeant could persue it if they wanted
Anyone in the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.
This was in 2000 as far as I know it much easier to do this now: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/872532.stm
Excuse me for saying this but are you completely and utterly insane? Show me, or give a reference, to the law where it says people can be deported between EU countries with no proof of committing a crime? Then if you do this, which you cant, then further show me an example where someone have had this happen to them because of breaching an NDA (which is NOT a guaranteed legal contract by default).
The link you have shown is regarding GENOCIDE comitted by Nazis during second world war. Are you comparing that to breach of NDA for a video game?? Again, are you insane?
This has been said many times before but an NDA is not the law. They have to go to court and a judge must validate it and then Adventurine has to prove that whoever they alleged breaking their NDA has actually done so. This is highly unlikely that will happen, at most what will happen is that the person will be kicked out of beta and thats it.
My gaming blog
Yeah, except when talking about someone being sued there would be a record of it somewhere.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
you do forget the govermeant has help fund darkfall dev SO >.> iw ould say the greek govermeant could persue it if they wanted
Come on downtoearth... that is pure BS and you know it.
Actually to say "it NEVER HAPPENED". is also a falacy of assumption, since we can't prove it happened, nor can we disprove it happened... sort of like proving god exists, and also proving god doesn't exist... either way we just don't know.
Using God as an example in this instance was priceless. I loved it. It made me laugh for nearly 4.3 seconds! Really. I am beginning to very nearly almost kind of like you.
Just a point of order regarding the highlighted text.
Here in the US, if you are not a citizen, our government can arrest, detain, deport you without ever giving you a trial or proving you are a criminal. I suppose the same would hold true in some other countries as well.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just a point of order regarding the highlighted text.
Here in the US, if you are not a citizen, our government can arrest, detain, deport you without ever giving you a trial or proving you are a criminal. I suppose the same would hold true in some other countries as well.
So that's what all those illegal aliens are doing!
They are signing up for video game Betas and breaking their NDAs! Dirty buggers! Deport the lot of them I say.
If they are willing to commit such a haneous criminal act as BREAKING A VIDEO GAME NDA (almost gives me shivers just writing it down!) who knows what crimes they are capable of.
(Yes, I was joking).
You readily admit that there is no precedent yet keep plugging along. If the NDA was as completely legally binding as YOU have claimed then there would be precedent. There have been millions of breaches of these types of contracts specifically beta NDAs. Yet there has never been a legal prosecution or civil case... have you EVER stopped to ask why? I mean if these NDAs are so legally binding the whole MMO industry could be financed by the money won in litigation over these events.
Sorry, every reference you have used has NO relevence. To say that it is all the same law is frankly naive. Lawyers specialize in contract law because there are so many governing every scenario you can think of. Each contract is subject to various laws depending on the type and scope of that contract. To just make a blanket statement like you did proves you know absolutely nothing of this subject.
The JLO issue was not a standard NDA... it was part of a divorce settlement and subject to laws that a beta NDA clearly is not. It was also not international or greek law... So how exactly are they the same as any other nondivorce NDA?
Again you have provided 0 proof to back up your argument. My proof is easy, any lack of precedent shows that companies simply do not legally persue NDA violators. What they tend to do is ban a person from beta and call it a day. Again show me an instance where (and lets be specific here) a gaming company has sued a player for an NDA breech. Until you can prove that your argument is invalid.
As to this line in the contract....
"xxxx will not make or display any screenshot of xxxxx during the beta test unless requested to do so by xxxxx"
You could argue this two ways. First, that any SS taken by a tester is at the request of aventurine due to the generic request for bug information. This would make every SS authorized through the NDA making this section of the contract moot. Second, it could also be argued that the proceedure for reporting bugs violates the letter of the contract because it does not require a tester to notify Aventuring BEFORE taking the SS to get authorization. Here is the kicker though... The NDA also says a tester has to take "reasonable" precautions to prevent leaks. A defendent could argue that the information was stolen from their computer by a hacker/virus breech that was not caught by their antivirus. This would be considered a "reasonable" attempt to secure the computer information and protecting the defendent in a civil case.
Aventurine would also have the burden to first prove that the SS or other information was leaked by the tester in a civil trial. If they have nothing but circumstancial evidence the case would most likely be thrown out. The ability to trace this information is almost impossible with any type of certainty. The time and money spent trying to claim damages would far excede any claims they may win.
That is why it is smoke and mirrors. Could it go to trial... yes. The chances of the company winning would be remote and the costs would far outway any benifits. The civil trial would also not make the defendent a fugitive like has been claimed previously.
As to Modern Greek law, I welcome any Greek lawyer to way in. The information on Greek law (modern) is sparse to say the least. They have a court system with jurors, but how civil cases are handled is unclear. I welcome you to find the information to back up your argument as well. Neither one of us has actually provided proof and all of your citations did not relate to contract law or were not related to Greek law.
So the best you could claim is that neither of us know precisely how this would play out in a Greek civil case. What I can tell you is that it would be more complicated as international laws would apply regardless of what is stated in the NDA. I under American law would not be worried about violating this NDA in the least... It does not mean I would do so, it just does not warrant any concern. To blow this issue up into fugatives and having all assetts siezed is patently absurd.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
You readily admit that there is no precedent yet keep plugging along. If the NDA was as completely legally binding as YOU have claimed then there would be precedent. There have been millions of breaches of these types of contracts specifically beta NDAs. Yet there has never been a legal prosecution or civil case... have you EVER stopped to ask why? I mean if these NDAs are so legally binding the whole MMO industry could be financed by the money won in litigation over these events.
Sorry, every reference you have used has NO relevence. To say that it is all the same law is frankly naive. Lawyers specialize in contract law because there are so many governing every scenario you can think of. Each contract is subject to various laws depending on the type and scope of that contract. To just make a blanket statement like you did proves you know absolutely nothing of this subject.
The JLO issue was not a standard NDA... it was part of a divorce settlement and subject to laws that a beta NDA clearly is not. It was also not international or greek law... So how exactly are they the same as any other nondivorce NDA?
Again you have provided 0 proof to back up your argument. My proof is easy, any lack of precedent shows that companies simply do not legally persue NDA violators. What they tend to do is ban a person from beta and call it a day. Again show me an instance where (and lets be specific here) a gaming company has sued a player for an NDA breech. Until you can prove that your argument is invalid.
As to this line in the contract....
"xxxx will not make or display any screenshot of xxxxx during the beta test unless requested to do so by xxxxx"
You could argue this two ways. First, that any SS taken by a tester is at the request of aventurine due to the generic request for bug information. This would make every SS authorized through the NDA making this section of the contract moot. Second, it could also be argued that the proceedure for reporting bugs violates the letter of the contract because it does not require a tester to notify Aventuring BEFORE taking the SS to get authorization. Here is the kicker though... The NDA also says a tester has to take "reasonable" precautions to prevent leaks. A defendent could argue that the information was stolen from their computer by a hacker/virus breech that was not caught by their antivirus. This would be considered a "reasonable" attempt to secure the computer information and protecting the defendent in a civil case.
Aventurine would also have the burden to first prove that the SS or other information was leaked by the tester in a civil trial. If they have nothing but circumstancial evidence the case would most likely be thrown out. The ability to trace this information is almost impossible with any type of certainty. The time and money spent trying to claim damages would far excede any claims they may win.
That is why it is smoke and mirrors. Could it go to trial... yes. The chances of the company winning would be remote and the costs would far outway any benifits. The civil trial would also not make the defendent a fugitive like has been claimed previously.
As to Modern Greek law, I welcome any Greek lawyer to way in. The information on Greek law (modern) is sparse to say the least. They have a court system with jurors, but how civil cases are handled is unclear. I welcome you to find the information to back up your argument as well. Neither one of us has actually provided proof and all of your citations did not relate to contract law or were not related to Greek law.
So the best you could claim is that neither of us know precisely how this would play out in a Greek civil case. What I can tell you is that it would be more complicated as international laws would apply regardless of what is stated in the NDA. I under American law would not be worried about violating this NDA in the least... It does not mean I would do so, it just does not warrant any concern. To blow this issue up into fugatives and having all assetts siezed is patently absurd.
except you dont know greek laws do you
Downtoearth, do you ever have anything worth saying? You always throw out things like the above references, but you never actually bring proof or logic to a discussion. You say you have all this knowledge, but you never link any proof.
And no he doesn't know Greek law that's why he asked for someone with the knowledge to speak up. Instead you throw out nonsense as usual.
-Almerel
Hello my old friend.
Good thing I can always count on you to bring reason to any of these debates. I look forward to your legal expertise pertaining to Greek contract law. Your track record has been proven so accurate up to this point we could almost take your one line comments as gospel.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
It's called a European arrest warrant. I have already explained.
It's called a European arrest warrant. I have already explained.
Actually you are wrong on this as well. Here is the regulation between EU arrest warrents.
"A European Arrest Warrant, valid throughout the European Union has replaced extradition procedures between Member States of the enlarged Europe. Such a warrant may be issued by a national issuing judicial authority if the person whose return is sought is accused of an offence for which the maximum period of the penalty is at least a year in prison, or if he or she has been sentenced to a prison term of at least four months."
So no they cannot extradite you without first bringing charges that would result in at least a years incarceration or has already been sentenced to 4 months. Since a civil case does not carry any jail time no EU warrant could be issued. Even if the person defaulted on payments after a civil case was lost they would still be ok if Greek law does not carry a 1 year or more sentence for the violation.
So once again you are wrong. Shall we continue?
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
You readily admit that there is no precedent yet keep plugging along. If the NDA was as completely legally binding as YOU have claimed then there would be precedent. There have been millions of breaches of these types of contracts specifically beta NDAs. Yet there has never been a legal prosecution or civil case... have you EVER stopped to ask why? I mean if these NDAs are so legally binding the whole MMO industry could be financed by the money won in litigation over these events.
Blah blah....
All nonsense, I have clealy showed you a case of somebody being successfully sued for breaching an NDA, the implications for that person if they didn't pay the damages are obvious, the court would not let it lie. I have shown you a precedent in a highly publicised and clear example. All you have done is speculate that you don't think that the contract would hold of in court, I'm sorry but you have no idea and I would assume that they would use a tried and tested NDA from a law firm. Provide evidence to back up your statement which isn't just your own speculations or admit your wrong, people have been sued for NDA and it would be become a criminal matter if they just ignore any court judgment.
I am not wrong as if you were disobaying a court order it would be a criminal offence. A judge just needs to apply for it.
It's called a European arrest warrant. I have already explained.
Actually you are wrong on this as well. Here is the regulation between EU arrest warrents.
"A European Arrest Warrant, valid throughout the European Union has replaced extradition procedures between Member States of the enlarged Europe. Such a warrant may be issued by a national issuing judicial authority if the person whose return is sought is accused of an offence for which the maximum period of the penalty is at least a year in prison, or if he or she has been sentenced to a prison term of at least four months."
So no they cannot extradite you without first bringing charges that would result in at least a years incarceration or has already been sentenced to 4 months. Since a civil case does not carry any jail time no EU warrant could be issued. Even if the person defaulted on payments after a civil case was lost they would still be ok if Greek law does not carry a 1 year or more sentence for the violation.
So once again you are wrong. Shall we continue?
Here's an interesting blogg on European Arrest Warrant.
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog.org.uk/blog/european-arrest-warrant/
Do not confuse your lack of desire to read my lengthy post with any vindication of your argument. You have proved nothing. The few links you provided had nothing to do with the topic at hand (as has been repeatedly stated). The laws are not the "same" as you state and show a complete lack of understand of laws in general. You constantly confuse civil litigation with criminal. You were wrong on how EU warrants work.
Pretty much your whole premise is wrong. Neither one of us know precisely how Greek law would treat a game NDA. The notion that the Greek government and the whole EU would hunt a violator down like some fugitive is comical.
NDAs especially for betas are there to scare people (seems to have worked on you). Their real power is to prevent these issues from ever happening. The legal muscle of these documents is suspect at best and the amount in damages would not make it worth any companies time to persue legal action. The fact that not one tester has ever been sued proves this fact.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Do not confuse your lack of desire to read my lengthy post with any vindication of your argument. You have proved nothing. The few links you provided had nothing to do with the topic at hand (as has been repeatedly stated). The laws are not the "same" as you state and show a complete lack of understand of laws in general. You constantly confuse civil litigation with criminal. You were wrong on how EU warrants work.
Pretty much your whole premise is wrong. Neither one of us know precisely how Greek law would treat a game NDA. The notion that the Greek government and the whole EU would hunt a violator down like some fugitive is comical.
NDAs especially for betas are there to scare people (seems to have worked on you). Their real power is to prevent these issues from ever happening. The legal muscle of these documents is suspect at best and the amount in damages would not make it worth any companies time to persue legal action. The fact that not one tester has ever been sued proves this fact.
I have read your posts all of it is your own opinion, whilst I have provided clear real world examples of NDA law in action. You can deny it as much as you want but as I have shown people are sued over breach of contract after signing NDA's. I don't know what you failing to understand about the obvious implications of ignoring any civil judgement made against you sooner or later it would turn into a criminal prosecution.
Do not confuse your lack of desire to read my lengthy post with any vindication of your argument. You have proved nothing. The few links you provided had nothing to do with the topic at hand (as has been repeatedly stated). The laws are not the "same" as you state and show a complete lack of understand of laws in general. You constantly confuse civil litigation with criminal. You were wrong on how EU warrants work.
Pretty much your whole premise is wrong. Neither one of us know precisely how Greek law would treat a game NDA. The notion that the Greek government and the whole EU would hunt a violator down like some fugitive is comical.
NDAs especially for betas are there to scare people (seems to have worked on you). Their real power is to prevent these issues from ever happening. The legal muscle of these documents is suspect at best and the amount in damages would not make it worth any companies time to persue legal action. The fact that not one tester has ever been sued proves this fact.
The wording on here is interesting ...
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0045/print.html#parti-sec3
Here's a short simplified definition:
"“European arrest warrant” means a warrant, order or decision of a judicial authority of a Member State, issued under such laws as give effect to the Framework Decision in that Member State, for the arrest and surrender by the State to that Member State of a person in respect of an offence committed or alleged to have been committed by him or her under the law of that Member State;"
I am not wrong as if you were disobaying a court order it would be a criminal offence. A judge just needs to apply for it.
Did you even bother reading it?
No EU court can file a EU warrant for a crime carrying a term of less then 1 year. There ARE restrictions to the EU warrants. A court cannot just issue one without charges being filed.
I am done with you as clearly your comprehension of this material is lacking. You keep being scared that someone will take you and all of your assets away without due process. What a wonderful world that must be to live in.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Yes I did read it and chances of such a thing happening are almost none whatsoever. Why would I be scared I haven't signed any NDA's and it very unlikely even if I did that anyone would bother persuing me over it. However it is not the case as you stated that it is impossible. They probably wouldn't use EAW but there also many other methods of making you pay the damages or exacting retribution against you. You can be sued for NDA breach of contract and you could not just ignore it if they attempted to do so.
Yes I did read it and chances of such a thing happening are almost none whatsoever. However it is not the case as you stated that it is impossible. They probably wouldn't use EAW but there also many other methods of making you pay the damages or exacting retribution against you. You can be sued for NDA breach of contract and you could not just ignore it if they attempted to do so.
Please reference where I said it would be impossible for Aventurine to attempt a civil suit against a beta tester. I said that with the wording of the NDA it would be extremely difficult to prove damages. You can sue anyone now without any real cause so it is never impossible.
I have been talking about civil cases this whole time. I have repeated said if a tester does not fight the CIVIL case they would be an idiot. Aventurine's NDA is badly worded and has unreasonable expectation which would likely invalidate it in a civil case.
This would never become criminal because the chances of Aventurine winning any damages in a civil case are incredibly remote. Even much better worded NDAs do not have a good civil track record. That is why it is highly doubtful that Aventurine would ever persue a civil case against a tester.
So to recap....
There has never been a successful NDA civil suit pertaining to game testing.
The NDA wording is abhorrently bad.
Aventurine would have difficulty proving damages.
Even if damages were proven the extent would be minor making the monetary judgement low.
It would be unprofitable for Aventurine to persue a civil suit against a tester because of the above.
Aventurine is extremely unlikely to try any civil action against any tester.
Because of the above most NDAs are scare tactics rather then actual viable legal contracts.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.