That is ignoring all the estimations and evidence. There is an estimated 500k-1M employed in Chinese gold farming business. There is a REGISTERED 6000 companies in China (registered, this is HARD data). There are estimation of average spending from $10-$90 per year per player on RMT.
BFD...what would a Chinese company have to make to be profitable? Probably much much less than an American or European company. Equating those to 6000 American companies is therefore retarded IMO.
You also dont know that they are all profitable, just that they are registered. Are single companies registered under multiple names? They might be, but your data wont tell us that.
Where are these "estimations" coming from, and what numbers are they based on? Is it simply based on some guy's guess? Probably.
So I cant say I am impressed by those figures. They dont really prove anything.
Plus, Blizzard is NOT dealing with it effectively.
That comes down to opinion. Since you dont really know how many people Blizzard catches and how many slip under the radar, you have no basis for an objective claim.
I gave up on Blizzard a long time ago for unrelated reasons. But when I was playing WoW, it didnt seem that common to me.
Anyone can buy some gold easily.
If they are willing to risk the consequences of getting caught, yeah. Many (most IMO) people arent. I am not going to risk getting my account banned on a character I spent months or years building.
Either way, that isnt an argument for RMT. Making cheating legal will not make it go away.
And no one is leaving WOW, at least NOT because of this.
I agree. I left it for the grindy gameplay and cartoony graphics, not the cheating.
I don't think you understand the how prevalent, and the scope of illegal RMT.
I remain unconvinced that your knowledge on the subject is superior to mine. Therefore I am unwilling to simply take your word for it. Sorry.
If you look at station exchange, which is LEGAL RMT between players, the particpation rate is 22% of their player base. That is hard data. So that is evidence that a sizable player population (22% in this case) WILL participate in RMT.
Me: It is. Add up all the P2P players for all P2P MMOs, and all the F2P players, and tell me what the ratio is. Maple Story, DOFUS, Runescape, Silkroad Online. I'll end my F2P list there. I missed the figures showing how many people play those games. Are you saying you do not know? If not, then how did you determine that F2P games are not a fringe market?
I noticed you hadn't even a title, let alone numbers, to bring to the table. Interesting! Although this is all easily googled, I am happy to oblige:
Maple Story
"This free-to-play online RPG has become a global success, with 72+ million users worldwide and $16 million in monthly revenues, according to Nexon's comments at Austin GDC last year." - Gamasutra, APR 2008
If you look at station exchange, which is LEGAL RMT between players, the particpation rate is 22% of their player base. That is hard data. So that is evidence that a sizable player population (22% in this case) WILL participate in RMT.
Source of data please? Also 22% of how many left in that game? I believe that game has a pretty small population now but that is only a guess. I have no datat to support my claim. Would be interesting to see what percentage of players that were playing before the RMT was released as well left the game.
The ideal solution is RMT for those that want it, and non RMT for those that consider it anti-game. The people who want RMT can move their asses over to RMT-friendly games. So I dont see the problem. There is a market (however small) that caters to them. So why pollute my game with RMT, especially if the majority of people playing that game dont want it?
You say that you believe that those that like RMT are a minority, so why then would your game developer do this?
The reality is that your game of choice already has scores of people buying stuff and your game developer wants a piece of the pie.
Yes, you are right, this is an assumption, but why else would a developer risk changing their game and upsetting their player base? If people did not buy gold then the developers would not have any interest in changing a game to RMT.
Character advancement rate on average is close to the same on Station Exchange and non-Station Exchange servers, but players with access to quest items advance slightly more quickly especially at the higher levels.
The average number of hours of playtime required to advance through a level is nearly the same on both servers. Players on The Bazaar, with access to Station Exchange, level up slightly more quickly at levels below 50. Players on the non-Station Exchange server Permafrost level up more quickly at levels above 50.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
If you look at station exchange, which is LEGAL RMT between players, the particpation rate is 22% of their player base. That is hard data. So that is evidence that a sizable player population (22% in this case) WILL participate in RMT.
Source of data please? Also 22% of how many left in that game? I believe that game has a pretty small population now but that is only a guess. I have no datat to support my claim. Would be interesting to see what percentage of players that were playing before the RMT was released as well left the game.
It was already posted in the other thread. However, it is here again. There are two point of data source.
And I quote "22% of respondents said that they had purchased virtual currency".
The second is hard data from Station Exchange with also 22% of players registered to take part in trading (Robischon 2007). You can easily look up the reference.
You say that you believe that those that like RMT are a minority, so why then would your game developer do this?
I dont think they would. I have stated so several times in this thread. I was just answering your hypothetical.
The reality is that your game of choice already has scores of people buying stuff and your game developer wants a piece of the pie.
Maybe, but they wont do it. Because they are afraid of driving off their core subscriber base...people like me.
Yes, you are right, this is an assumption, but why else would a developer risk changing their game and upsetting their player base?
I dont believe most mainstream developers would.
If people did not buy gold then the developers would not have any interest in changing a game to RMT.
I disagree...I think developers would have an interest in generating new revenue streams regardless of whether or not people bought gold illegally. But they will not risk their primary revenue stream simply for the chance of generating another one. It would be bad business.
F2P games have nothing to lose, which is why they dont have a problem adopting RMT. That is not true with P2P MMOs though.
If you look at station exchange, which is LEGAL RMT between players, the particpation rate is 22% of their player base. That is hard data. So that is evidence that a sizable player population (22% in this case) WILL participate in RMT.
Source of data please? Also 22% of how many left in that game? I believe that game has a pretty small population now but that is only a guess. I have no datat to support my claim. Would be interesting to see what percentage of players that were playing before the RMT was released as well left the game.
It was already posted in the other thread. However, it is here again. There are two point of data source.
And I quote "22% of respondents said that they had purchased virtual currency".
The second is hard data from Station Exchange with also 22% of players registered to take part in trading (Robischon 2007). You can easily look up the reference.
I would still like to see numbers on how many of their players quit from the time of the announcement RMT was going to be added to all servers not a select few and how many are currently playing the game. There is a big difference between 22% of 20,000 and 500,000 (numbers used for example purposes). Also you are just bringing up Station Exchange where it was between the players and only on a few servers. Everything that was sold was worked for in game and people who did not want to participate in that could play on other servers. They now have a full fledge item shop and it affects all servers.
Some like myself will not play a game with an item shop. Why not have some servers without it? They lost my subscription with the current model and I am sure there are others who would not sub as well because of it. If I am paying a sub fee and for the purchase price of the orginal game/expansions, I best be getting the WHOLE game. That includes "fluff" items.
Some like myself will not play a game with an item shop. Why not have some servers without it?
Some MMOs do that. The msot notable is Puzzle Pirates. They have servers solely for the people who prefer the subscription model, and separate servers for those who rather RMT.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Some like myself will not play a game with an item shop. Why not have some servers without it?
Some MMOs do that. The msot notable is Puzzle Pirates. They have servers solely for the people who prefer the subscription model, and separate servers for those who rather RMT.
I would still like to see numbers on how many of their players quit from the time of the announcement RMT was going to be added to all servers not a select few and how many are currently playing the game. There is a big difference between 22% of 20,000 and 500,000 (numbers used for example purposes). Also you are just bringing up Station Exchange where it was between the players and only on a few servers. Everything that was sold was worked for in game and people who did not want to participate in that could play on other servers. They now have a full fledge item shop and it affects all servers. Some like myself will not play a game with an item shop. Why not have some servers without it? They lost my subscription with the current model and I am sure there are others who would not sub as well because of it. If I am paying a sub fee and for the purchase price of the orginal game/expansions, I best be getting the WHOLE game. That includes "fluff" items.
I think I have done quite a bit of actual research on this topic. You can easily follow the references and see what actual data is availabe.
A little more discussion on your view of item shops. What you play or not is obviously your perogative. However, you do know that even for a game like WOW, which is quite anti gold trading, has quite a few RMT-ish items. Notably are the mounts and pets that you can only get from buying their trading cards or from ebay.
Are you going to avoid WOW because of that? In my view, that is quite silly but of course you can do watever you want. So far, I have yet to see anyone in WOW who has a problem with RMT on "fluff items" and certainly i know of no one who is quiting because of it.
If that is your attitude, you may want to find another hobby because I see this (as least RMT for the fluffi tems) as a trend.
I would still like to see numbers on how many of their players quit from the time of the announcement RMT was going to be added to all servers not a select few and how many are currently playing the game. There is a big difference between 22% of 20,000 and 500,000 (numbers used for example purposes). Also you are just bringing up Station Exchange where it was between the players and only on a few servers. Everything that was sold was worked for in game and people who did not want to participate in that could play on other servers. They now have a full fledge item shop and it affects all servers. Some like myself will not play a game with an item shop. Why not have some servers without it? They lost my subscription with the current model and I am sure there are others who would not sub as well because of it. If I am paying a sub fee and for the purchase price of the orginal game/expansions, I best be getting the WHOLE game. That includes "fluff" items.
I think I have done quite a bit of actual research on this topic. You can easily follow the references and see what actual data is availabe.
A little more discussion on your view of item shops. What you play or not is obviously your perogative. However, you do know that even for a game like WOW, which is quite anti gold trading, has quite a few RMT-ish items. Notably are the mounts and pets that you can only get from buying their trading cards or from ebay.
Are you going to avoid WOW because of that? In my view, that is quite silly but of course you can do watever you want. So far, I have yet to see anyone in WOW who has a problem with RMT on "fluff items" and certainly i know of no one who is quiting because of it.
If that is your attitude, you may want to find another hobby because I see this (as least RMT for the fluffi tems) as a trend.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
I would still like to see numbers on how many of their players quit from the time of the announcement RMT was going to be added to all servers not a select few and how many are currently playing the game. There is a big difference between 22% of 20,000 and 500,000 (numbers used for example purposes). Also you are just bringing up Station Exchange where it was between the players and only on a few servers. Everything that was sold was worked for in game and people who did not want to participate in that could play on other servers. They now have a full fledge item shop and it affects all servers. Some like myself will not play a game with an item shop. Why not have some servers without it? They lost my subscription with the current model and I am sure there are others who would not sub as well because of it. If I am paying a sub fee and for the purchase price of the orginal game/expansions, I best be getting the WHOLE game. That includes "fluff" items.
I think I have done quite a bit of actual research on this topic. You can easily follow the references and see what actual data is availabe.
A little more discussion on your view of item shops. What you play or not is obviously your perogative. However, you do know that even for a game like WOW, which is quite anti gold trading, has quite a few RMT-ish items. Notably are the mounts and pets that you can only get from buying their trading cards or from ebay.
Are you going to avoid WOW because of that? In my view, that is quite silly but of course you can do watever you want. So far, I have yet to see anyone in WOW who has a problem with RMT on "fluff items" and certainly i know of no one who is quiting because of it.
If that is your attitude, you may want to find another hobby because I see this (as least RMT for the fluffi tems) as a trend.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
If that is the case, you probably won't have many MMOs to play (as demonstrated by the fact that you are not playing any MMO) and you probably have to quit this genre of games because there is certainly a trend towards more RMT, particularly the fluff items.
You are certainly entitled to vote with your wallet although i would argue that people like you consist of a very very small part of the market. 11M players of WOW (or even just the 4-5M in Europe/US) apparently have no problem with some small amount of fluff RMT, as well as a black market of illegal gold RMT.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
You are the buyer, you can refuse to buy. That is it. You have no say on the supplier's behaviour. The supplier has his own issues. He is trying to earn money to pay for his employees his creditors, his suppliers. You call that greed? How about I call you greedy for trying to have everything with just a pathetic $15? Both are nonsense. Call it greed, call it look after himself, call it whatever, that is the rule of capitalism. No one will look after you, so you have to cover your own ass.
Free market means free market, everyone can sell in any terms, that is allowed by law. A blind crusade against a business model is stupid. The competitors will kill the model, if it is ineffective. Consumers will kill the model, if they feel it not worth the bucks. Survival of business model is thru competition, not thru message board crusades. You can write endlessly here for a year, and it won't make a dent on RMTs, if that model is accepted by some people, willing to pay, and someone else willing to offer.
The most common scenario, guy who call others greedy are themselves even more greedy. Hope you are not.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
You are the buyer, you can refuse to buy. That is it. You have no say on the supplier's behaviour. The supplier has his own issues. He is trying to earn money to pay for his employees his creditors, his suppliers. You call that greed? How about I call you greedy for trying to have everything with just a pathetic $15? Both are nonsense. Call it greed, call it look after himself, call it whatever, that is the rule of capitalism. No one will look after you, so you have to cover your own ass.
Free market means free market, everyone can sell in any terms, that is allowed by law. A blind crusade against a business model is stupid. The competitors will kill the model, if it is ineffective. Consumers will kill the model, if they feel it not worth the bucks. Survival of business model is thru competition, not thru message board crusades. You can write endlessly here for a year, and it won't make a dent on RMTs, if that model is accepted by some people, willing to pay, and someone else willing to offer.
The most common scenario, guy who call others greedy are themselves even more greedy. Hope you are not.
Poor analogy. That was the biggest load of garbage spewed I have seen in a long time. I didn't see him say he thinks the MMO should go from 15/month to 1/month. Pathetic argument. Only thing this person you quoted said was they are going to vote with their wallet when they feel someone is being greedy. What is wrong with that? That IS capatilism in the works. Prices are regulated that way. Business continue to see how much they can raise prices before the consumer decides they do not want the product anymore.
Poor analogy. That was the biggest load of garbage spewed I have seen in a long time. I didn't see him say he thinks the MMO should go from 15/month to 1/month. Pathetic argument. Only thing this person you quoted said was they are going to vote with their wallet when they feel someone is being greedy. What is wrong with that? That IS capatilism in the works. Prices are regulated that way. Business continue to see how much they can raise prices before the consumer decides they do not want the product anymore.
Well, we are operating under capitalism. Players have the perfect right to vote with their wallet. But don't complain when developers cater to whatever clientelle they do see fit. The market is two-sided. Business have the freedom to go whatever direction they want with THEIR products.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
You are the buyer, you can refuse to buy. That is it. You have no say on the supplier's behaviour. The supplier has his own issues. He is trying to earn money to pay for his employees his creditors, his suppliers. You call that greed? How about I call you greedy for trying to have everything with just a pathetic $15? Both are nonsense. Call it greed, call it look after himself, call it whatever, that is the rule of capitalism. No one will look after you, so you have to cover your own ass.
Free market means free market, everyone can sell in any terms, that is allowed by law. A blind crusade against a business model is stupid. The competitors will kill the model, if it is ineffective. Consumers will kill the model, if they feel it not worth the bucks. Survival of business model is thru competition, not thru message board crusades. You can write endlessly here for a year, and it won't make a dent on RMTs, if that model is accepted by some people, willing to pay, and someone else willing to offer.
The most common scenario, guy who call others greedy are themselves even more greedy. Hope you are not.
Poor analogy. That was the biggest load of garbage spewed I have seen in a long time. I didn't see him say he thinks the MMO should go from 15/month to 1/month. Pathetic argument. Only thing this person you quoted said was they are going to vote with their wallet when they feel someone is being greedy. What is wrong with that? That IS capatilism in the works. Prices are regulated that way. Business continue to see how much they can raise prices before the consumer decides they do not want the product anymore.
You can vote with your wallet when you claim the supplier is greedy. The supplier can build their services ignoring you when they see you as greedy. You leave, they turn their back to you. That is it.
Is this clear enough? You don't want them, they also don't want you. Is this simple enough?
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
You are the buyer, you can refuse to buy. That is it. You have no say on the supplier's behaviour. The supplier has his own issues. He is trying to earn money to pay for his employees his creditors, his suppliers. You call that greed? How about I call you greedy for trying to have everything with just a pathetic $15? Both are nonsense. Call it greed, call it look after himself, call it whatever, that is the rule of capitalism. No one will look after you, so you have to cover your own ass.
Free market means free market, everyone can sell in any terms, that is allowed by law. A blind crusade against a business model is stupid. The competitors will kill the model, if it is ineffective. Consumers will kill the model, if they feel it not worth the bucks. Survival of business model is thru competition, not thru message board crusades. You can write endlessly here for a year, and it won't make a dent on RMTs, if that model is accepted by some people, willing to pay, and someone else willing to offer.
The most common scenario, guy who call others greedy are themselves even more greedy. Hope you are not.
Poor analogy. That was the biggest load of garbage spewed I have seen in a long time. I didn't see him say he thinks the MMO should go from 15/month to 1/month. Pathetic argument. Only thing this person you quoted said was they are going to vote with their wallet when they feel someone is being greedy. What is wrong with that? That IS capatilism in the works. Prices are regulated that way. Business continue to see how much they can raise prices before the consumer decides they do not want the product anymore.
You can vote with your wallet when you claim the supplier is greedy. The supplier can build their services ignoring you when they see you as greedy. You leave, they turn their back to you. That is it.
Is this clear enough? You don't want them, they also don't want you. Is this simple enough?
You are arguing against yourself. I never said they had to please me. Oh and believe me, the business DOES want you. You are the one's keeping them in business. I said I will vote with my wallet for games I do not like. That is my choice. Apparently according to a poll recently put up a lot of folks feel the same. You don't know what they want don't try to say you do. Believe me, I have worked in customer relations and for every person that does not want your product (complaint letters) if the company is smart they take them seriously. I forget the formula but I think it was for every complaint letter they assumed ten others are unhappy.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
If the majority of people agree with me, then yeah. I think they will either drop their price to $1000 or go out of business.
If this poll is any indication, it would be financial suicide for a mainstream MMO to implement RMT. Most people do not want RMT that affects game balance.
A little more discussion on your view of item shops. What you play or not is obviously your perogative. However, you do know that even for a game like WOW, which is quite anti gold trading, has quite a few RMT-ish items.
Why use the suffix "-ish"? Do you not believe they are "really" RMT yourself?
That was kinda my point earlier in the thread. When people complain about RMT, they are not talking about trivial items like pets and mounts. They are talking about things that significantly alter game balance.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
You are the buyer, you can refuse to buy. That is it. You have no say on the supplier's behaviour. The supplier has his own issues. He is trying to earn money to pay for his employees his creditors, his suppliers. You call that greed? How about I call you greedy for trying to have everything with just a pathetic $15? Both are nonsense. Call it greed, call it look after himself, call it whatever, that is the rule of capitalism. No one will look after you, so you have to cover your own ass.
Free market means free market, everyone can sell in any terms, that is allowed by law. A blind crusade against a business model is stupid. The competitors will kill the model, if it is ineffective. Consumers will kill the model, if they feel it not worth the bucks. Survival of business model is thru competition, not thru message board crusades. You can write endlessly here for a year, and it won't make a dent on RMTs, if that model is accepted by some people, willing to pay, and someone else willing to offer.
The most common scenario, guy who call others greedy are themselves even more greedy. Hope you are not.
Poor analogy. That was the biggest load of garbage spewed I have seen in a long time. I didn't see him say he thinks the MMO should go from 15/month to 1/month. Pathetic argument. Only thing this person you quoted said was they are going to vote with their wallet when they feel someone is being greedy. What is wrong with that? That IS capatilism in the works. Prices are regulated that way. Business continue to see how much they can raise prices before the consumer decides they do not want the product anymore.
You can vote with your wallet when you claim the supplier is greedy. The supplier can build their services ignoring you when they see you as greedy. You leave, they turn their back to you. That is it.
Is this clear enough? You don't want them, they also don't want you. Is this simple enough?
You are arguing against yourself. I never said they had to please me. Oh and believe me, the business DOES want you. You are the one's keeping them in business. I said I will vote with my wallet for games I do not like. That is my choice. Apparently according to a poll recently put up a lot of folks feel the same. You don't know what they want don't try to say you do. Believe me, I have worked in customer relations and for every person that does not want your product (complaint letters) if the company is smart they take them seriously. I forget the formula but I think it was for every complaint letter they assumed ten others are unhappy.
Losing argument and getting personal?
Since when you know I pay for RMT. Because I do not agree with you automatically makes me an ardent RMT spender? Just like Bush, "He who does not agree with me is a supporter of terrorism". Oh well. We all know how much damage Bush had dealt to the international standing of US, just with that kind of attitude. Hope Obama and Mrs Clinton can repair part of the damage.
The poll put up here proves what? Good, if a poll here can be used for serious business decisions, we do not need survey companies. There are people who do not like RMT, of course. There are people who do not care about RMT too. So what? Nothing, different stroke for different folks.
Oh you agree that producers do not need to please you, that is wonderful news. Now, producers can safely introduce RMT within the limits of law, and you can choose not to patronise their services. Both sides are happy. Those who do not care for RMT can look for fun in games, can freely choose games. Me for one, won't bother support your crusade against a form of business practice, as I have the freedom to buy or not buy. I feel myself protected, enough.
Some like myself will not play a game with an item shop. Why not have some servers without it?
Some MMOs do that. The msot notable is Puzzle Pirates. They have servers solely for the people who prefer the subscription model, and separate servers for those who rather RMT.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king. You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom? If the majority of people agree with me, then yeah. I think they will either drop their price to $1000 or go out of business. If this poll is any indication, it would be financial suicide for a mainstream MMO to implement RMT. Most people do not want RMT that affects game balance.
A little more discussion on your view of item shops. What you play or not is obviously your perogative. However, you do know that even for a game like WOW, which is quite anti gold trading, has quite a few RMT-ish items. Why use the suffix "-ish"? Do you not believe they are "really" RMT yourself? That was kinda my point earlier in the thread. When people complain about RMT, they are not talking about trivial items like pets and mounts. They are talking about things that significantly alter game balance.
I do not know how many people agree with me about Mercedes, or price cut. Mercedes did not care, they sell for 4x the "normal" mark up for autos, spend the extra dollar on ad and showroom decor, and they sell enuf to make them big and rich. See how GM, Ford and the others go? Bankrupt. No Mercedes does not go out of business. Not yet.
Your poll is irrelevant. Putting up a poll without control on who can vote, without control on double vote, without control on who gets to see, and without idea on how many care to vote and how many simply ignore your poll, that makes the poll totally unconvincing. I never vote. Nor do I read those polls.
Statistics? Garbage in Garbage out. Without proper planning, execution, QC and verification, statistics is just a number.
My key question is:
(1) Why do you care how people play and pay for their game, if you find fun in your game?
(2) Why do you care about a game if you find it not fun, be it due to RMT or what, why not just move on?
I do not know how many people agree with me about Mercedes, or price cut. Mercedes did not care, they sell for 4x the "normal" mark up for autos, spend the extra dollar on ad and showroom decor, and they sell enuf to make them big and rich. See how GM, Ford and the others go? Bankrupt.
They didnt cater to their market well enough or their market was too small. Either way, the analog still applies to MMOs. Mainstream MMOs will not drive off an existing revenue stream just to get access to a smaller one. And thats what RMT would do.
Your poll is irrelevant.
Odd that only the anti-RMT people keep saying that. If it is so obvious, why does it need to be pointed out?
The poll mirrors what I have seen in the MMO community myself. And I have yet to see any real evidence that the poll is wrong. Some evidence > no evidence.
Putting up a poll without control on who can vote, without control on double vote
There is control...it is one vote per account. Is someone really going to make a second account simply to vote in this poll? I think thats stretching.
(1) Why do you care how people play and pay for their game
I dont so long as I dont have to play in games which use RMT. My only argument is that the majority of the MMO community doesnt want RMT, and that RMT is not the "wave of the future" as the columnists are claiming. Thats all. I'm not trying to convert anyone.
(2) Why do you care about a game if you find it not fun, be it due to RMT or what, why not just move on?
Already did that. But converting people or dictating playstyle to them was never why I was on this thread.
I've explicitly said so several times in fact; I dont have a problem with RMT games existing. I just dont want to participate in them. And I am arguing that they are not the future of MMOs.
If this poll is any indication, it would be financial suicide for a mainstream MMO to implement RMT. Most people do not want RMT that affects game balance.
If you want to use data, you should use better source and bigger sampling. For example, this Yee 2005 survey stated that:
"In a recent survey (N = 1923), 22% of respondents said that they had purchased virtual currency (referred to here in shorthand as RMT - real money transfer). There was a mild correlation with age (r = .11) and no gender differences."
In fact, if you look at their graph, a lot of older players 27-28% of the group >35 yr old have puchased gold. Here is the linke:
Comments
That is ignoring all the estimations and evidence. There is an estimated 500k-1M employed in Chinese gold farming business. There is a REGISTERED 6000 companies in China (registered, this is HARD data). There are estimation of average spending from $10-$90 per year per player on RMT.
BFD...what would a Chinese company have to make to be profitable? Probably much much less than an American or European company. Equating those to 6000 American companies is therefore retarded IMO.
You also dont know that they are all profitable, just that they are registered. Are single companies registered under multiple names? They might be, but your data wont tell us that.
Where are these "estimations" coming from, and what numbers are they based on? Is it simply based on some guy's guess? Probably.
So I cant say I am impressed by those figures. They dont really prove anything.
Plus, Blizzard is NOT dealing with it effectively.
That comes down to opinion. Since you dont really know how many people Blizzard catches and how many slip under the radar, you have no basis for an objective claim.
I gave up on Blizzard a long time ago for unrelated reasons. But when I was playing WoW, it didnt seem that common to me.
Anyone can buy some gold easily.
If they are willing to risk the consequences of getting caught, yeah. Many (most IMO) people arent. I am not going to risk getting my account banned on a character I spent months or years building.
Either way, that isnt an argument for RMT. Making cheating legal will not make it go away.
And no one is leaving WOW, at least NOT because of this.
I agree. I left it for the grindy gameplay and cartoony graphics, not the cheating.
I don't think you understand the how prevalent, and the scope of illegal RMT.
I remain unconvinced that your knowledge on the subject is superior to mine. Therefore I am unwilling to simply take your word for it. Sorry.
If you look at station exchange, which is LEGAL RMT between players, the particpation rate is 22% of their player base. That is hard data. So that is evidence that a sizable player population (22% in this case) WILL participate in RMT.
22% is a long way from a majority.
I noticed you hadn't even a title, let alone numbers, to bring to the table. Interesting! Although this is all easily googled, I am happy to oblige:
Maple Story
"This free-to-play online RPG has become a global success, with 72+ million users worldwide and $16 million in monthly revenues, according to Nexon's comments at Austin GDC last year." - Gamasutra, APR 2008
Source: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3617/understanding_freetoplay_.php
Silkroad Online
"Silkroad Online boasts 7.2 million registered users"
Source: http://www.massively.com/2008/06/26/silkroad-online-boasts-7-2-million-registered-users/
Runescape
"RuneScape, released 2001 - 5 million active users"
Source: http://kotaku.com/gaming/list-it/top-10-mmos-269160.php
DOFUS
"Dofus, the French MMO from Ankama Games, has reached 10 million players and 1.5 million subscribers paying GBP 3.5 (just over $6) per month."
Source: http://www.playnoevil.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/2240-NOTED-Dofus-has-10-Million-Players,-1.5-Million-Subscribers...-not-bad-for-a-Flash-MMO.html
As I said, we'll start there. If we really need to add in Habbo Hotel, Gaia Online, etc we'll do that... but I think it's pretty much covered.
Sooooo.... what numbers did you come up with?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Source of data please? Also 22% of how many left in that game? I believe that game has a pretty small population now but that is only a guess. I have no datat to support my claim. Would be interesting to see what percentage of players that were playing before the RMT was released as well left the game.
You say that you believe that those that like RMT are a minority, so why then would your game developer do this?
The reality is that your game of choice already has scores of people buying stuff and your game developer wants a piece of the pie.
Yes, you are right, this is an assumption, but why else would a developer risk changing their game and upsetting their player base? If people did not buy gold then the developers would not have any interest in changing a game to RMT.
Qombi, here's a white paper with gobs of data on Station Exchange (EQ/EQ2 RMT):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23941/SOE-Station-Exchange-White-Paper-1-19
Some points of note:
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Source of data please? Also 22% of how many left in that game? I believe that game has a pretty small population now but that is only a guess. I have no datat to support my claim. Would be interesting to see what percentage of players that were playing before the RMT was released as well left the game.
It was already posted in the other thread. However, it is here again. There are two point of data source.
The first is a survey .. Yee 2005:
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/pdf/3-5.pdf
And I quote "22% of respondents said that they had purchased virtual currency".
The second is hard data from Station Exchange with also 22% of players registered to take part in trading (Robischon 2007). You can easily look up the reference.
You say that you believe that those that like RMT are a minority, so why then would your game developer do this?
I dont think they would. I have stated so several times in this thread. I was just answering your hypothetical.
The reality is that your game of choice already has scores of people buying stuff and your game developer wants a piece of the pie.
Maybe, but they wont do it. Because they are afraid of driving off their core subscriber base...people like me.
Yes, you are right, this is an assumption, but why else would a developer risk changing their game and upsetting their player base?
I dont believe most mainstream developers would.
If people did not buy gold then the developers would not have any interest in changing a game to RMT.
I disagree...I think developers would have an interest in generating new revenue streams regardless of whether or not people bought gold illegally. But they will not risk their primary revenue stream simply for the chance of generating another one. It would be bad business.
F2P games have nothing to lose, which is why they dont have a problem adopting RMT. That is not true with P2P MMOs though.
Source of data please? Also 22% of how many left in that game? I believe that game has a pretty small population now but that is only a guess. I have no datat to support my claim. Would be interesting to see what percentage of players that were playing before the RMT was released as well left the game.
It was already posted in the other thread. However, it is here again. There are two point of data source.
The first is a survey .. Yee 2005:
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/pdf/3-5.pdf
And I quote "22% of respondents said that they had purchased virtual currency".
The second is hard data from Station Exchange with also 22% of players registered to take part in trading (Robischon 2007). You can easily look up the reference.
I would still like to see numbers on how many of their players quit from the time of the announcement RMT was going to be added to all servers not a select few and how many are currently playing the game. There is a big difference between 22% of 20,000 and 500,000 (numbers used for example purposes). Also you are just bringing up Station Exchange where it was between the players and only on a few servers. Everything that was sold was worked for in game and people who did not want to participate in that could play on other servers. They now have a full fledge item shop and it affects all servers.
Some like myself will not play a game with an item shop. Why not have some servers without it? They lost my subscription with the current model and I am sure there are others who would not sub as well because of it. If I am paying a sub fee and for the purchase price of the orginal game/expansions, I best be getting the WHOLE game. That includes "fluff" items.
Some MMOs do that. The msot notable is Puzzle Pirates. They have servers solely for the people who prefer the subscription model, and separate servers for those who rather RMT.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Some MMOs do that. The msot notable is Puzzle Pirates. They have servers solely for the people who prefer the subscription model, and separate servers for those who rather RMT.
Which is the perfect alternative.
I think I have done quite a bit of actual research on this topic. You can easily follow the references and see what actual data is availabe.
A little more discussion on your view of item shops. What you play or not is obviously your perogative. However, you do know that even for a game like WOW, which is quite anti gold trading, has quite a few RMT-ish items. Notably are the mounts and pets that you can only get from buying their trading cards or from ebay.
Are you going to avoid WOW because of that? In my view, that is quite silly but of course you can do watever you want. So far, I have yet to see anyone in WOW who has a problem with RMT on "fluff items" and certainly i know of no one who is quiting because of it.
If that is your attitude, you may want to find another hobby because I see this (as least RMT for the fluffi tems) as a trend.
I think I have done quite a bit of actual research on this topic. You can easily follow the references and see what actual data is availabe.
A little more discussion on your view of item shops. What you play or not is obviously your perogative. However, you do know that even for a game like WOW, which is quite anti gold trading, has quite a few RMT-ish items. Notably are the mounts and pets that you can only get from buying their trading cards or from ebay.
Are you going to avoid WOW because of that? In my view, that is quite silly but of course you can do watever you want. So far, I have yet to see anyone in WOW who has a problem with RMT on "fluff items" and certainly i know of no one who is quiting because of it.
If that is your attitude, you may want to find another hobby because I see this (as least RMT for the fluffi tems) as a trend.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
I think I have done quite a bit of actual research on this topic. You can easily follow the references and see what actual data is availabe.
A little more discussion on your view of item shops. What you play or not is obviously your perogative. However, you do know that even for a game like WOW, which is quite anti gold trading, has quite a few RMT-ish items. Notably are the mounts and pets that you can only get from buying their trading cards or from ebay.
Are you going to avoid WOW because of that? In my view, that is quite silly but of course you can do watever you want. So far, I have yet to see anyone in WOW who has a problem with RMT on "fluff items" and certainly i know of no one who is quiting because of it.
If that is your attitude, you may want to find another hobby because I see this (as least RMT for the fluffi tems) as a trend.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
If that is the case, you probably won't have many MMOs to play (as demonstrated by the fact that you are not playing any MMO) and you probably have to quit this genre of games because there is certainly a trend towards more RMT, particularly the fluff items.
You are certainly entitled to vote with your wallet although i would argue that people like you consist of a very very small part of the market. 11M players of WOW (or even just the 4-5M in Europe/US) apparently have no problem with some small amount of fluff RMT, as well as a black market of illegal gold RMT.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
You are the buyer, you can refuse to buy. That is it. You have no say on the supplier's behaviour. The supplier has his own issues. He is trying to earn money to pay for his employees his creditors, his suppliers. You call that greed? How about I call you greedy for trying to have everything with just a pathetic $15? Both are nonsense. Call it greed, call it look after himself, call it whatever, that is the rule of capitalism. No one will look after you, so you have to cover your own ass.
Free market means free market, everyone can sell in any terms, that is allowed by law. A blind crusade against a business model is stupid. The competitors will kill the model, if it is ineffective. Consumers will kill the model, if they feel it not worth the bucks. Survival of business model is thru competition, not thru message board crusades. You can write endlessly here for a year, and it won't make a dent on RMTs, if that model is accepted by some people, willing to pay, and someone else willing to offer.
The most common scenario, guy who call others greedy are themselves even more greedy. Hope you are not.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
You are the buyer, you can refuse to buy. That is it. You have no say on the supplier's behaviour. The supplier has his own issues. He is trying to earn money to pay for his employees his creditors, his suppliers. You call that greed? How about I call you greedy for trying to have everything with just a pathetic $15? Both are nonsense. Call it greed, call it look after himself, call it whatever, that is the rule of capitalism. No one will look after you, so you have to cover your own ass.
Free market means free market, everyone can sell in any terms, that is allowed by law. A blind crusade against a business model is stupid. The competitors will kill the model, if it is ineffective. Consumers will kill the model, if they feel it not worth the bucks. Survival of business model is thru competition, not thru message board crusades. You can write endlessly here for a year, and it won't make a dent on RMTs, if that model is accepted by some people, willing to pay, and someone else willing to offer.
The most common scenario, guy who call others greedy are themselves even more greedy. Hope you are not.
Poor analogy. That was the biggest load of garbage spewed I have seen in a long time. I didn't see him say he thinks the MMO should go from 15/month to 1/month. Pathetic argument. Only thing this person you quoted said was they are going to vote with their wallet when they feel someone is being greedy. What is wrong with that? That IS capatilism in the works. Prices are regulated that way. Business continue to see how much they can raise prices before the consumer decides they do not want the product anymore.
Well, we are operating under capitalism. Players have the perfect right to vote with their wallet. But don't complain when developers cater to whatever clientelle they do see fit. The market is two-sided. Business have the freedom to go whatever direction they want with THEIR products.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
You are the buyer, you can refuse to buy. That is it. You have no say on the supplier's behaviour. The supplier has his own issues. He is trying to earn money to pay for his employees his creditors, his suppliers. You call that greed? How about I call you greedy for trying to have everything with just a pathetic $15? Both are nonsense. Call it greed, call it look after himself, call it whatever, that is the rule of capitalism. No one will look after you, so you have to cover your own ass.
Free market means free market, everyone can sell in any terms, that is allowed by law. A blind crusade against a business model is stupid. The competitors will kill the model, if it is ineffective. Consumers will kill the model, if they feel it not worth the bucks. Survival of business model is thru competition, not thru message board crusades. You can write endlessly here for a year, and it won't make a dent on RMTs, if that model is accepted by some people, willing to pay, and someone else willing to offer.
The most common scenario, guy who call others greedy are themselves even more greedy. Hope you are not.
Poor analogy. That was the biggest load of garbage spewed I have seen in a long time. I didn't see him say he thinks the MMO should go from 15/month to 1/month. Pathetic argument. Only thing this person you quoted said was they are going to vote with their wallet when they feel someone is being greedy. What is wrong with that? That IS capatilism in the works. Prices are regulated that way. Business continue to see how much they can raise prices before the consumer decides they do not want the product anymore.
You can vote with your wallet when you claim the supplier is greedy. The supplier can build their services ignoring you when they see you as greedy. You leave, they turn their back to you. That is it.
Is this clear enough? You don't want them, they also don't want you. Is this simple enough?
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
You are the buyer, you can refuse to buy. That is it. You have no say on the supplier's behaviour. The supplier has his own issues. He is trying to earn money to pay for his employees his creditors, his suppliers. You call that greed? How about I call you greedy for trying to have everything with just a pathetic $15? Both are nonsense. Call it greed, call it look after himself, call it whatever, that is the rule of capitalism. No one will look after you, so you have to cover your own ass.
Free market means free market, everyone can sell in any terms, that is allowed by law. A blind crusade against a business model is stupid. The competitors will kill the model, if it is ineffective. Consumers will kill the model, if they feel it not worth the bucks. Survival of business model is thru competition, not thru message board crusades. You can write endlessly here for a year, and it won't make a dent on RMTs, if that model is accepted by some people, willing to pay, and someone else willing to offer.
The most common scenario, guy who call others greedy are themselves even more greedy. Hope you are not.
Poor analogy. That was the biggest load of garbage spewed I have seen in a long time. I didn't see him say he thinks the MMO should go from 15/month to 1/month. Pathetic argument. Only thing this person you quoted said was they are going to vote with their wallet when they feel someone is being greedy. What is wrong with that? That IS capatilism in the works. Prices are regulated that way. Business continue to see how much they can raise prices before the consumer decides they do not want the product anymore.
You can vote with your wallet when you claim the supplier is greedy. The supplier can build their services ignoring you when they see you as greedy. You leave, they turn their back to you. That is it.
Is this clear enough? You don't want them, they also don't want you. Is this simple enough?
You are arguing against yourself. I never said they had to please me. Oh and believe me, the business DOES want you. You are the one's keeping them in business. I said I will vote with my wallet for games I do not like. That is my choice. Apparently according to a poll recently put up a lot of folks feel the same. You don't know what they want don't try to say you do. Believe me, I have worked in customer relations and for every person that does not want your product (complaint letters) if the company is smart they take them seriously. I forget the formula but I think it was for every complaint letter they assumed ten others are unhappy.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
If the majority of people agree with me, then yeah. I think they will either drop their price to $1000 or go out of business.
If this poll is any indication, it would be financial suicide for a mainstream MMO to implement RMT. Most people do not want RMT that affects game balance.
A little more discussion on your view of item shops. What you play or not is obviously your perogative. However, you do know that even for a game like WOW, which is quite anti gold trading, has quite a few RMT-ish items.
Why use the suffix "-ish"? Do you not believe they are "really" RMT yourself?
That was kinda my point earlier in the thread. When people complain about RMT, they are not talking about trivial items like pets and mounts. They are talking about things that significantly alter game balance.
Yes. If I pay for the game/expansions and a sub fee the whole game should be included even fluff items. I do not play WoW now. I do not like RMT. Actually right now I am not playing any MMO because of the "trends" to dig into players pockets out of greed. WoW is making plenty of money on the sub fee/game sells. It did not need the extra money from rmt. Greed. I choose to vote with my wallet. It is one little vote but it is mine to place.
OK you vote with your wallet. You are king.
You go to a mercedes shop, look at the car and say, "Hey the 2000 pound of metal cost $400, the 25 sq ft of leather cost $100, the rubber for the tires cost $ .... OK $1000 for your car. I refuse to pay for any other RMT services, no waxing, no checkup, no no no $1000 is the package ..." Do you think you will last a minute in that showroom?
You are the buyer, you can refuse to buy. That is it. You have no say on the supplier's behaviour. The supplier has his own issues. He is trying to earn money to pay for his employees his creditors, his suppliers. You call that greed? How about I call you greedy for trying to have everything with just a pathetic $15? Both are nonsense. Call it greed, call it look after himself, call it whatever, that is the rule of capitalism. No one will look after you, so you have to cover your own ass.
Free market means free market, everyone can sell in any terms, that is allowed by law. A blind crusade against a business model is stupid. The competitors will kill the model, if it is ineffective. Consumers will kill the model, if they feel it not worth the bucks. Survival of business model is thru competition, not thru message board crusades. You can write endlessly here for a year, and it won't make a dent on RMTs, if that model is accepted by some people, willing to pay, and someone else willing to offer.
The most common scenario, guy who call others greedy are themselves even more greedy. Hope you are not.
Poor analogy. That was the biggest load of garbage spewed I have seen in a long time. I didn't see him say he thinks the MMO should go from 15/month to 1/month. Pathetic argument. Only thing this person you quoted said was they are going to vote with their wallet when they feel someone is being greedy. What is wrong with that? That IS capatilism in the works. Prices are regulated that way. Business continue to see how much they can raise prices before the consumer decides they do not want the product anymore.
You can vote with your wallet when you claim the supplier is greedy. The supplier can build their services ignoring you when they see you as greedy. You leave, they turn their back to you. That is it.
Is this clear enough? You don't want them, they also don't want you. Is this simple enough?
You are arguing against yourself. I never said they had to please me. Oh and believe me, the business DOES want you. You are the one's keeping them in business. I said I will vote with my wallet for games I do not like. That is my choice. Apparently according to a poll recently put up a lot of folks feel the same. You don't know what they want don't try to say you do. Believe me, I have worked in customer relations and for every person that does not want your product (complaint letters) if the company is smart they take them seriously. I forget the formula but I think it was for every complaint letter they assumed ten others are unhappy.
Losing argument and getting personal?
Since when you know I pay for RMT. Because I do not agree with you automatically makes me an ardent RMT spender? Just like Bush, "He who does not agree with me is a supporter of terrorism". Oh well. We all know how much damage Bush had dealt to the international standing of US, just with that kind of attitude. Hope Obama and Mrs Clinton can repair part of the damage.
The poll put up here proves what? Good, if a poll here can be used for serious business decisions, we do not need survey companies. There are people who do not like RMT, of course. There are people who do not care about RMT too. So what? Nothing, different stroke for different folks.
Oh you agree that producers do not need to please you, that is wonderful news. Now, producers can safely introduce RMT within the limits of law, and you can choose not to patronise their services. Both sides are happy. Those who do not care for RMT can look for fun in games, can freely choose games. Me for one, won't bother support your crusade against a form of business practice, as I have the freedom to buy or not buy. I feel myself protected, enough.
Some MMOs do that. The msot notable is Puzzle Pirates. They have servers solely for the people who prefer the subscription model, and separate servers for those who rather RMT.
Which is the perfect alternative.
Different strokes for different folks.
I do not know how many people agree with me about Mercedes, or price cut. Mercedes did not care, they sell for 4x the "normal" mark up for autos, spend the extra dollar on ad and showroom decor, and they sell enuf to make them big and rich. See how GM, Ford and the others go? Bankrupt. No Mercedes does not go out of business. Not yet.
Your poll is irrelevant. Putting up a poll without control on who can vote, without control on double vote, without control on who gets to see, and without idea on how many care to vote and how many simply ignore your poll, that makes the poll totally unconvincing. I never vote. Nor do I read those polls.
Statistics? Garbage in Garbage out. Without proper planning, execution, QC and verification, statistics is just a number.
My key question is:
(1) Why do you care how people play and pay for their game, if you find fun in your game?
(2) Why do you care about a game if you find it not fun, be it due to RMT or what, why not just move on?
I do not know how many people agree with me about Mercedes, or price cut. Mercedes did not care, they sell for 4x the "normal" mark up for autos, spend the extra dollar on ad and showroom decor, and they sell enuf to make them big and rich. See how GM, Ford and the others go? Bankrupt.
They didnt cater to their market well enough or their market was too small. Either way, the analog still applies to MMOs. Mainstream MMOs will not drive off an existing revenue stream just to get access to a smaller one. And thats what RMT would do.
Your poll is irrelevant.
Odd that only the anti-RMT people keep saying that. If it is so obvious, why does it need to be pointed out?
The poll mirrors what I have seen in the MMO community myself. And I have yet to see any real evidence that the poll is wrong. Some evidence > no evidence.
Putting up a poll without control on who can vote, without control on double vote
There is control...it is one vote per account. Is someone really going to make a second account simply to vote in this poll? I think thats stretching.
(1) Why do you care how people play and pay for their game
I dont so long as I dont have to play in games which use RMT. My only argument is that the majority of the MMO community doesnt want RMT, and that RMT is not the "wave of the future" as the columnists are claiming. Thats all. I'm not trying to convert anyone.
(2) Why do you care about a game if you find it not fun, be it due to RMT or what, why not just move on?
Already did that. But converting people or dictating playstyle to them was never why I was on this thread.
I've explicitly said so several times in fact; I dont have a problem with RMT games existing. I just dont want to participate in them. And I am arguing that they are not the future of MMOs.
If you want to use data, you should use better source and bigger sampling. For example, this Yee 2005 survey stated that:
"In a recent survey (N = 1923), 22% of respondents said that they had purchased virtual currency (referred to here in shorthand as RMT - real money transfer). There was a mild correlation with age (r = .11) and no gender differences."
In fact, if you look at their graph, a lot of older players 27-28% of the group >35 yr old have puchased gold. Here is the linke:
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001469.php
They have also survey HOW MUCH people spend. http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001469.php?page=2
The average is US$135.
I have already responded to that post here.