SpyridonZ, I'm quoting part of a post you made in your debate over what constitutes grind. I don't want to get into the semantics arguement but some of what you said makes me wonder just exactly what you are expecting from TOR. I'm not trying to say it will be a bad game I'm just curious what you think will make it so different. I'll post my questions inside the quote.
Originally posted by SpyridonZ Well, id argue that it is repetitive if you have to fight the wolves and kobolds in the same exact way - which is how it is in most MMO's. Also, the problem is there is only a small number of different goals you have, and no significance to them. Kill quests, collect quests, delivery quests - those 3 things make up the majority of MMO quests. That's why it "feels" like a grind - its the same thing over and over. So how do you think TOR will differ from this? As you follow the story you will be given objectives (quests). These will inevitably boil down to <<go to that place and perform this action>>. The actions you perform will, again inevitably, be either <kill>, <collect>, or <deliver>. Or maybe <talk to this guy> which is pretty standard. Or maybe <disable this sheild generator> which could be classified as a <destroy> quest. The point is that I don't see how there could be a great deal of variation in the types of goals they give you. Whether your shooting bears, goblins, spiders, kobolds - if you just have to press 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, repeat - its going to get repetitive. Ok, so how will TOR differ from this? Instead of killing bears, goblins, spiders, and kobolds you will be killing humans, wookies, droids, and sandpeople. When you get right down to it is that really so different? And what do you expect from combat? You don't think you're going to be using the same combat abilities over and over again? The 1,1,1,2,3, repeat type of thing you mentioned? Killing someone for a quest should have some significance - not just for a reward. So what significance do you think it will have in TOR other than the reward of progressing your character and progressing through the story? Doing quests for a certain NPC should make a difference. So what difference do you think it will make in TOR other than progressing your character and progressing through the story? I'm not trying to bust your chops here I'm just really wondering what you think will be so different about the game. I can't imagine that the actions of a player will make any real difference in the game other than for your own character.
The significance is that you can shape the story by your decisions. You can make good and bad choices and suffer the consequences for doing so. Have you played any of the KOTOR games? Current games only let you choose to do the quest or not. You don't get to make choices on how you go about it and there are no consequences for doing it one way or another.
The story in traditional MMOs never changes direction because you decided to be snide with the NPC. Unless you faction grind, quests don't take your actions into account and slide you toward the good or evil side of the scale. Sliding to the good or evil side or faction grinding as it is in current games doesn't open up different and unique skills or take away those skills if you slide in the opposite direction.
Just like KOTRO I and II, you feel vested in your character. It reflects your personality and it shows in game. Any game can offer you story, but how many offer you any kind of choice within that story? How many offer stories that change dynamically after your choices, sending you down a different path? Of course all of these different paths are preset, but you still get to make those choices and live with them. You can't take them back, you can't go back and grind the opposite faction to take you down that other path. If you want to experience that other path, you have to re-roll and do things differently.
I don't understand why you guys have such a difficult time seeing the difference and just how much of an immersion factor it really is. The best part of all is that we get to do this personal story and get leveling XP for it without having to constantly kill 10 frakking rats. I wouldn't be surprised if you could reach max level or close just by doing your personal story and never having to grind 1000's of mobs to do so. That alone would make this a revolutionary game, not just evolutionary.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
Wow.... can you really be serious or is your attempt at sarcasm just very very bad. A great many gamers, myself included, are quite pleased with the shift to story. MMO's have been very light on story... so much so, that the only reason to read a quest's info is to figure exactly how much to kill of what and where that is. Having some sort of storyline to play through will make for a much richer gaming experience. I hope you do realize there are a large number of us that grew up on rpgs rather than quake and unreal tournament.
I think one of the reasons story has seemed less important in MMOs is because you feel like you're just walking in the footsteps of the people who did that quest before you, the same quest hundreds of people behind you are going to do.
While I see your point, keep in mind that when you read a book, especially a popular one, lots of people have read it before you. I find this in no way diminishes my enjoyment of the book.
Well, yes., who doesn't? But in MMOs it's never been really important at all, so long as the universe in which that MMO is set has a strong and consistent lore. For Bioware to proclaim 'Story' is as important as 'Combat', 'Exploration' and 'Progression' is as illogical as a great chef proclaiming that 'A Vacuum Cleaner' is as important to a great meal as 'Meat', 'Vegetables' and 'Spices'..
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
You don't care about story maybe, but personally I think it will make an amazing gaming experience that offers a ton of replay value. Not the kind of replay value that is solely based on doing the same quest, or camping the same mobs over and over again just to enhance one stupid aspect about my gear.
Current MMO's for the most part, but most of all wow, is nothing more than chasing the carrot on a stick. It's always right in front of our face, and they are masters of keeping us wanting it.
I think the fact that there is a unique storyline for each class will have alot of people wanting to play many different classes just to be able to experience each one.
No no, don't you see? BioWare -OWES- him and his 250k friends (who in a singularily heroic campaign destroyed SOE utterly and completely) a pre-cu Star Wars game. Don't you see the logic in that?
Of course they don't, because this game is STAR WARS.Therefore since their beloved holy grail was put out of its misery, every Star Wars themed MMO should try and emulate the biggest fail in the history of MMOs because well, IT WAS AWESOME and the hundreds of thousands who didn't like it and left just didn't understand its uberness. How can you not want 32 broken professions that are useless against the alpha class? How can you not want to grind hundreds of hours for that glow stick? Didn't you know? Games should be like a second job, not entertaining.. And story? We don't need no dang story. The greatest story ever told was of the hundreds of geeks who had no life and sat in front of their monitors grinding jedi just so they could pawn everyone.
Calm down.
You think you're describing pre-NGE SW fans but actually you're describing TOR fanbois who are already committing themselves to following Bioware's step-by-step game-on-railsa and then when they hit the levelcap retracing their steps and starting gain,,,
That's definately true. If I see someone acting a fool I tend to slip in a little bit of their own medecine for a little bit of humor (as i did towards the end) lol. I'm seriously confused on what the goal of this post is though. Anyone who knows who Bioware is should know that complaining about this sort of thing is futile, and should know exactly what to expect - which nullifys most of the entire post. It's also opening Pandoras box to make topics trying to speak for everyone. If the argument was presented in a fashion of "I do not like storyline so I am upset with the direction of this game" it would be a completely different story. Quite ironic that the OP claims ignorance on Biowares part, when there are millions upon millions of Bioware fans that know & love what they do, and there are millions upon millions of traditional RPG fans that have been waiting for something like this for years. I would be willing to bet that nearly everyone on here knows -someone- who has avoided MMO's BECAUSE they are a grind and have no story - which again brings up complete irony - the OP does not want a grind and actually playing thru a story and having control over your roleplaying experience is REMOVING the grind. You only have to focus on what decisions you want to make, and your next goal - NOT "grinding out that next level". Aside from FF12, I have NEVER heard ANYONE call a traditional RPG a grind. So calling an MMO based upon traditional RPGs a grind is a VERY VERY weak argument, to say the least,. Just the same as its a horrible argument to complain to Bioware about a "grind" when they are taking more measurable steps to remove a grind then any MMO developer has in years - maybe ever has. The OP would have recieved a much better reaction and made a whole lot more sense and had a much more viable argument, if he stated "I'm unhappy with Bioware replacing the grind with a story because not all players like storys". Because, like it or not, having a story IS removing the grind. Even complaints such as that would have been silly, becuase Bioware is doing what they do, and it should be expected.... but at least it would have been much more constructive then this.
[Mod Edit]
there are some of us who seriously doubt that TOR is going to provide a satisfying MMORPG experience by building their product around story. There are good reasons for this:
Story-based products lead to very narrow gameplay since the automatically militate against open landscapes, freedom of play choice and character development
Story-based products are games 'played-on-rails' not games 'player-directed'
Story-based products are not conducive to replayability and variety
Story-based products mean that long-term play is dependent on new expansion/chapters which must be regularly paid for.
Most of all:
an online story-based product implies a singleplayer game with multiplayer hubs that, for the first time, must be paid for by a monthly rent rather than paid for and owned outright by the player.
And that's why many of us are concerned. These are legitimate concerns and this is a legitimate forum in which to voice those concerns.
I'm not going to flame the OP, I understand what he is saying.. Agree with it totally? Na.. but I do agree with most of what he is saying and feeling.. Story is "GREAT" the first time around, after that.. Who cares? I don't.. I think WoW, LoTRo had great storylines that went well with the quest and goals of the game.. However, after my primary characters see's the story, I'm looking for the "X" button to quickly close chat and move on to the objective.. I don't need to read the same thing over and over on each toon.. In my opinion the story is an equal "pillar" as Bioware says on your first toon, but on any alt after that.. I dont' give a rat's @ss what the lil chat bubble says.. lets move along.. What will make or break any mmo in today's market is playability.. Are the mechanics sound? Are they balanced? Are they bugged? You know.. Golf is the #1 sport and hobby in the world generating BILLIONS in the economy each year.. More people play this game then anything else.. and guess what? It has NO freaking story.. People play to play, because the mechanics of the game are fun, challenging and fair.. You could put a "history" plaque on each hole for golfers to read about the history and story of the game.. But like I said before.. That only works the 1st time thru, after that, I'm ignoring the plaque..
Nicely put - and you sum up the potential, perhaps even fatal flaw of the TOR idea:
Greetings, Netzoko. I thought that I should take this opportunity to help you make your post sound a little less like an upset troll rant and share a little more of your own opinion in a less hostile manner.
It blows my mind how developers make games without me, Netzoko, in mind while doing so. With possibly the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what I, Netzoko have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to develop the game as they see fit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. I hate classes, I hate levels, I hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these personal complaints that I have about the MMO genre? Heck no, to them the way to create their own MMO is to focus on story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of information not being released that I, Netzoko would like to know about. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but maybe it has? I don't know, I haven't played the game yet, what do you all think? Alas I [apparently] continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues I have with the genre, and instead focus on something that I consider utterly worthless. So why am I following the game... hmm.. I dunno? Newsflash Bioware, I am not upset with lack of story, I am upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you might be continuing to reiterate and expect to sell. But I'm not really sure at this point, because I don't know anything about the game besides it having story!
You're welcome.
dude, that was epic. i love you.
The original poster made valid points though in intemperate language.
Your response was subliterate and abusive. I hope you are not representative of the TOR demographic otherwise we'll have just one more game fucked up by the nastiness of its players.
Please do tell what valid points the OP made? One point made he is sick of hearing about the story in SW:TOR, granted. That was it, that was all, there is no more. The rest was just a mindless rant babbling about how much we dont like that Bioware is witholding information. OP suck it up deal with it move on. When Bioware deems their content ready we will hear about it. Until then we all get to think and wonder about pvp,pve,crafting and items. This game is still in alpha I believe. Wouldent get your panties in a knot yet still a long way to go.
Originally posted by maxomaxo Originally posted by SpyridonZ That's definately true. If I see someone acting a fool I tend to slip in a little bit of their own medecine for a little bit of humor (as i did towards the end) lol. I'm seriously confused on what the goal of this post is though. Anyone who knows who Bioware is should know that complaining about this sort of thing is futile, and should know exactly what to expect - which nullifys most of the entire post. It's also opening Pandoras box to make topics trying to speak for everyone. If the argument was presented in a fashion of "I do not like storyline so I am upset with the direction of this game" it would be a completely different story. Quite ironic that the OP claims ignorance on Biowares part, when there are millions upon millions of Bioware fans that know & love what they do, and there are millions upon millions of traditional RPG fans that have been waiting for something like this for years. I would be willing to bet that nearly everyone on here knows -someone- who has avoided MMO's BECAUSE they are a grind and have no story - which again brings up complete irony - the OP does not want a grind and actually playing thru a story and having control over your roleplaying experience is REMOVING the grind. You only have to focus on what decisions you want to make, and your next goal - NOT "grinding out that next level". Aside from FF12, I have NEVER heard ANYONE call a traditional RPG a grind. So calling an MMO based upon traditional RPGs a grind is a VERY VERY weak argument, to say the least,. Just the same as its a horrible argument to complain to Bioware about a "grind" when they are taking more measurable steps to remove a grind then any MMO developer has in years - maybe ever has. The OP would have recieved a much better reaction and made a whole lot more sense and had a much more viable argument, if he stated "I'm unhappy with Bioware replacing the grind with a story because not all players like storys". Because, like it or not, having a story IS removing the grind. Even complaints such as that would have been silly, becuase Bioware is doing what they do, and it should be expected.... but at least it would have been much more constructive then this.
OK, you seem like a dense, hectoring kind of person who has to explain that they're 'doing a funny' by putting a '(lol)' at the end of the line, so let me explain it to you: Unlike many kneejerk fanbois, there are some of us who seriously doubt that TOR is going to provide a satisfying MMORPG experience by building their product around story. There are good reasons for this:
Story-based products lead to very narrow gameplay since the automatically militate against open landscapes, freedom of play choice and character development
Story-based products are games 'played-on-rails' not games 'player-directed'
Story-based products are not conducive to replayability and variety Story-based products mean that long-term play is dependent on new expansion/chapters which must be regularly paid for.Most of all: an online story-based product implies a singleplayer game with multiplayer hubs that, for the first time, must be paid for by a monthly rent rather than paid for and owned outright by the player.
And that's why many of us are concerned. These are legitimate concerns and this is a legitimate forum in which to voice those concerns.
The points that you listed are valid, however all the complaining about SW:TOR being a linear themepark which is storydriven with no replayability is pure conjecture at this point seeing as there are currently no examples of actual gameplay released. Once the game is released and it follows your above examples then people can bitch and moan but until that time the handful of posters in this thread who are having issues with the way the game is being developed need to relax, go grab a fat-free latte, and read a book. In the end, if SW:TOR is released the way you seem to predict then there are other non-story driven MMOs out there that you may find enjoyable, because I honestly do not think that the Devs at Bioware are here at MMORPG.COM reading this thread, seeing 5 or 6 unhappy players and then deciding to completely redirect their development concept from ground up just because a few disgruntled posters say they should.
I agree with what the OP says on a personal level however I do not agree that it represents most MMO players think they want.
Good stories demand the full attention of the audience, games are an interactive media. Despite how multi-tasking we think we are, the human brain is NOT multi-tasking. It absorbs information better if it is not multi-tasking. This is why good stories demand full attention of its audience and having its audience do other tasks, removes the audience from the ascetics of the story and then they need to be re-calibrated.
This is why, stories in games are always a disaster. The only way to tell a good story in a game is to remove most of the interactivity and choices behind the game.
Its important to note that Quests are intretsing to people mostly becuase of the interactivity behind it. The story of the quest might create a better or worse ascetics. But no quest will ever be as good as a very good TV series or Movie.
Speaking for myself, I don’t read the stories.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
OK, you seem like a dense, hectoring kind of person who has to explain that they're 'doing a funny' by putting a '(lol)' at the end of the line, so let me explain it to you: Unlike many kneejerk fanbois, there are some of us who seriously doubt that TOR is going to provide a satisfying MMORPG experience by building their product around story. There are good reasons for this:
Story-based products lead to very narrow gameplay since the automatically militate against open landscapes, freedom of play choice and character development Story-based products are games 'played-on-rails' not games 'player-directed' Story-based products are not conducive to replayability and variety Story-based products mean that long-term play is dependent on new expansion/chapters which must be regularly paid for.
Most of all:
an online story-based product implies a singleplayer game with multiplayer hubs that, for the first time, must be paid for by a monthly rent rather than paid for and owned outright by the player.
And that's why many of us are concerned. These are legitimate concerns and this is a legitimate forum in which to voice those concerns.
As one of the people who is frequently called a fanboi for this game, let me refute your points a little, mh?
1) Where in creation did story-based gameplay lead (automatically) to a narrow and closed world? As far as we are aware, BiOWare is doing the story-elements in sort of instances (I say sort of, because the Engine they are using is streamlining those rather differently than what we are used to).
2) Storey-Based games are games on rails with many parting of ways on the tracks. At least in BioWare's case and at least as far as what we know is concerned. meaning, you have only half a point there. Yes, the game will be "directed" to a degree, as in, you will have an overarching story, but -how- that story plays out and in which direction it goes is up to you.
3) A game with a unique story to every class as well as several different paths along the storyline is very conductive to replayability. In fact, I would say it is much more conductive to replayability than a game without story. Why? Well, what's the fun in grinding through a game again, when you have nothing to do BUT grind an? Isn't a good, new story much more compelling? Kind of reading a second book in a book series with a different main character.
4) If there were only the story in the game, then yes, I would agree. Which is also why I have repeatedly siad that I hope/pray that BW do not simply slap on some half-arsed end-game content, but have decent/fun PvP, interesting Raids and social areas for players to RP. All of this has been confirmed to be in the game, the wuestion however is -how- it is in the game. Nonetheless, the story, in this case, is only one part of the game.
And lastly:
It has been said in interviews before. It will NOT be a singleplayer experience with multiplayer hubs. It will NOT be like GuildWars. That's not what they are doing.
At least that's what they are saying. Now of course, you can say the Dev's are lying. But then, as I said to other people on this board, there is no use arguing, is there? If you think everything we have been told is a lie, then why the hell bother to argue anything? There's no evidence to be had anyway then.
Why is BioWare talking so much about story? Because it is the thing that sets it apart from other MMO's. Why would they talk about PvP? Why would they talk about Raids? Why would they talk about social hubs? That's all stuff that other games have and that have been demonstrated before. Story, as done in this game, hasn't been there before. So that's what they are promoting. Makes perfect sense, don't you agree?
Now, if in the future, they continue to not say anything about PvP and other End-Game activities, that'll be different. If by the time of beta we still don't know how these things will work or to what degree they will be in, then that's different.
I hope that BW realizes that the end-game content, the part after the story has to be solid and fun as well. If they fail to realize that, then yes, that will be the point where your predictions come true. But so far, they have talked about all the things that are necessary in interviews. Just because you choose to believe the Dev#s are lying to you doesn't mean they are.
Firstly, please go and look up the definition of 'refute', it doesn't mean the same as 'rebut'. Secondly, in your first point you ask why 'in creation' (...eh, what?) some us think that Bioware are going to make a 'narrow and closed world' and then you immediately agree that the game is going to be set in 'sort of instances'. Thirdly, since you seem to be answering my points for me and rebutting yourself, there's no need for me to go on.
Riiiight. So developer interviews do not count. I get it. Your opinion or interpretation counts. Good. I get it.
Secondly. If you were able to read, you'd have realized I said the -story- will be introduced in instances. That is, parts of the story where instancing makes sense. If you had read recent interviews, you would know this. Obviously though, you choose to stick to your own theory of the world being completely instanced. Never mind you didn't even bother to check up on HeroEngines instancing mechanics.
Thirdly, since all you are doing is trying to twist words, I have a vague feeling this discussion is not going anywhere.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
speak for yourself
I agree about story being too much
but if people didn't like grinds then they'd play mmos without grinds and not mmos with tons of grinds
but they're doing the opposite of what they reportedly like and doing what they supposedly dislike
There's like 15 replies in this thread within the nature of "speak for yourself." Well of course I'm speaking for myself, that's the core nature of forums. Everyone here is speaking of opinion, nobody is some spokesperson. Sheesh...
Anyway, who said anything about grind? Under no circumstance is story an effort to replace grind, which is entirely my point. Instead of fixing things like grind/classes/kill boar quests, the devs add on new, unnecessary things like story when they should instead be fixing the gripes people have about the genre.
There's like 15 replies in this thread within the nature of "speak for yourself." Well of course I'm speaking for myself, that's the core nature of forums. Everyone here is speaking of opinion, nobody is some spokesperson. Sheesh...
Well then don't say in the title: Nobody gives a crap...
So you assumed everyone is like you and don't care about the story and of course the ones who do will stand up and prove you otherwise. So you brought it on yourself.
When posting next time, write: I don't give a crap...
p.s. I do care about the story - especially when I need to make a choice and it affects the gameplay like planned in this game.
The biggest problem for devs is there still looking at wow as a base to make a game no one is really willing to try and make a land mark case for something new because where talking millions of dollars and none of them in the long run cares what we think its not our money making the game it becomes are issue once we spend money for it and resub monthly thats when its our issue but by then you go 2 ways quit or play it till you get eventually get bored out of your mind with it...
I dont think there really is a fix for this till someone is willing to stop looking at wow as the model i personally quit paying for mmo's because im just tired of the same thing grind your levels grind crafting or jus grinding anything in general..anyone think of making something not based on having to grind use life as a base do you see us going out and killing furry woodland creatures to get experience no...we train by doing the art and practicing it....storyline is only a small issue they need to fix the content first before you can actually make a story that works...
Look at lotr great story why isnt everyone playing that the reason content of combat no pvp worth a crap everyone has moved up a level and is trying to find that next pvp game that makes them say jeez awsome combat nice story.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
What a ridiculous thread. I wouldn't say that story is what makes an mmo good, but it certainly could help, and none of us even know how well it does or doesn't work.
If everyone did have the same opinion as you, then Mortal Online would have twice as many website visits per day as www.swtor.com, and Darkfall Online would have already hit one million subs.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
speak for yourself
I agree about story being too much
but if people didn't like grinds then they'd play mmos without grinds and not mmos with tons of grinds
but they're doing the opposite of what they reportedly like and doing what they supposedly dislike
There's like 15 replies in this thread within the nature of "speak for yourself." Well of course I'm speaking for myself, that's the core nature of forums. Everyone here is speaking of opinion, nobody is some spokesperson. Sheesh...
Anyway, who said anything about grind? Under no circumstance is story an effort to replace grind, which is entirely my point. Instead of fixing things like grind/classes/kill boar quests, the devs add on new, unnecessary things like story when they should instead be fixing the gripes people have about the genre.
I highlighted it for you.
'Unnecessary things like story' is presenting your opinion as fact.
While you mean that YOU are not interested in story in a MMO and find it unnecessary, every time you present it either as fact or claim that everyone else agrees with you. Naturally people react to this, because they dont like it when other people put words or opinions in their mouths.
Basically all this means is that you already know that you probably wont like this game because of its focus on story. If you brought it like this, people would at the most accuse you from jumping to conclusions.
Originally posted by Draccan Bioware stick to story and the eq / wow script. Good for them and their sales. Judging from this and other forums, the SW name will sell a lot of boxes. But it is not great for the mmorpg industry nor for hte players!
Originally posted by Draccan Bioware stick to story and the eq / wow script. Good for them and their sales. Judging from this and other forums, the SW name will sell a lot of boxes. But it is not great for the mmorpg industry nor for hte players!
Why not?
Because innovation will ruin things?
I for one am excited, and I think the story arch is a great way to draw players into the game. It might not appeal to all people, and thats fine, no game will do that. But the type of player that it appeals to is just the type of player I want to be playing this game with.
Originally posted by Draccan Tortage was popular because it was well polished but not because of the story. There were huge outcries (HUGE) about the linear aspects to it and that it had to be repeated for people who starts all over.
The only aspects of Tortage you had to participate in was the quest to enter the city, and the final quest to leave the island. In total, about 10 to 15 minutes of scripted, linear content. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Comments
The significance is that you can shape the story by your decisions. You can make good and bad choices and suffer the consequences for doing so. Have you played any of the KOTOR games? Current games only let you choose to do the quest or not. You don't get to make choices on how you go about it and there are no consequences for doing it one way or another.
The story in traditional MMOs never changes direction because you decided to be snide with the NPC. Unless you faction grind, quests don't take your actions into account and slide you toward the good or evil side of the scale. Sliding to the good or evil side or faction grinding as it is in current games doesn't open up different and unique skills or take away those skills if you slide in the opposite direction.
Just like KOTRO I and II, you feel vested in your character. It reflects your personality and it shows in game. Any game can offer you story, but how many offer you any kind of choice within that story? How many offer stories that change dynamically after your choices, sending you down a different path? Of course all of these different paths are preset, but you still get to make those choices and live with them. You can't take them back, you can't go back and grind the opposite faction to take you down that other path. If you want to experience that other path, you have to re-roll and do things differently.
I don't understand why you guys have such a difficult time seeing the difference and just how much of an immersion factor it really is. The best part of all is that we get to do this personal story and get leveling XP for it without having to constantly kill 10 frakking rats. I wouldn't be surprised if you could reach max level or close just by doing your personal story and never having to grind 1000's of mobs to do so. That alone would make this a revolutionary game, not just evolutionary.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Wow.... can you really be serious or is your attempt at sarcasm just very very bad. A great many gamers, myself included, are quite pleased with the shift to story. MMO's have been very light on story... so much so, that the only reason to read a quest's info is to figure exactly how much to kill of what and where that is. Having some sort of storyline to play through will make for a much richer gaming experience. I hope you do realize there are a large number of us that grew up on rpgs rather than quake and unreal tournament.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
While I see your point, keep in mind that when you read a book, especially a popular one, lots of people have read it before you. I find this in no way diminishes my enjoyment of the book.
I like story.
Well, yes., who doesn't? But in MMOs it's never been really important at all, so long as the universe in which that MMO is set has a strong and consistent lore. For Bioware to proclaim 'Story' is as important as 'Combat', 'Exploration' and 'Progression' is as illogical as a great chef proclaiming that 'A Vacuum Cleaner' is as important to a great meal as 'Meat', 'Vegetables' and 'Spices'..
You don't care about story maybe, but personally I think it will make an amazing gaming experience that offers a ton of replay value. Not the kind of replay value that is solely based on doing the same quest, or camping the same mobs over and over again just to enhance one stupid aspect about my gear.
Current MMO's for the most part, but most of all wow, is nothing more than chasing the carrot on a stick. It's always right in front of our face, and they are masters of keeping us wanting it.
I think the fact that there is a unique storyline for each class will have alot of people wanting to play many different classes just to be able to experience each one.
Of course they don't, because this game is STAR WARS.Therefore since their beloved holy grail was put out of its misery, every Star Wars themed MMO should try and emulate the biggest fail in the history of MMOs because well, IT WAS AWESOME and the hundreds of thousands who didn't like it and left just didn't understand its uberness. How can you not want 32 broken professions that are useless against the alpha class? How can you not want to grind hundreds of hours for that glow stick? Didn't you know? Games should be like a second job, not entertaining.. And story? We don't need no dang story. The greatest story ever told was of the hundreds of geeks who had no life and sat in front of their monitors grinding jedi just so they could pawn everyone.
Calm down.
You think you're describing pre-NGE SW fans but actually you're describing TOR fanbois who are already committing themselves to following Bioware's step-by-step game-on-railsa and then when they hit the levelcap retracing their steps and starting gain,,,
[Mod Edit]
there are some of us who seriously doubt that TOR is going to provide a satisfying MMORPG experience by building their product around story. There are good reasons for this:
Most of all:
And that's why many of us are concerned. These are legitimate concerns and this is a legitimate forum in which to voice those concerns.
Nicely put - and you sum up the potential, perhaps even fatal flaw of the TOR idea:
Lore is Unlimited but Story is Limiting.
You're welcome.
dude, that was epic. i love you.
The original poster made valid points though in intemperate language.
Your response was subliterate and abusive. I hope you are not representative of the TOR demographic otherwise we'll have just one more game fucked up by the nastiness of its players.
Please do tell what valid points the OP made? One point made he is sick of hearing about the story in SW:TOR, granted. That was it, that was all, there is no more. The rest was just a mindless rant babbling about how much we dont like that Bioware is witholding information. OP suck it up deal with it move on. When Bioware deems their content ready we will hear about it. Until then we all get to think and wonder about pvp,pve,crafting and items. This game is still in alpha I believe. Wouldent get your panties in a knot yet still a long way to go.
OK, you seem like a dense, hectoring kind of person who has to explain that they're 'doing a funny' by putting a '(lol)' at the end of the line, so let me explain it to you:
Unlike many kneejerk fanbois, there are some of us who seriously doubt that TOR is going to provide a satisfying MMORPG experience by building their product around story. There are good reasons for this:
- Story-based products lead to very narrow gameplay since the automatically militate against open landscapes, freedom of play choice and character development
- Story-based products are games 'played-on-rails' not games 'player-directed'
- Story-based products are not conducive to replayability and variety Story-based products mean that long-term play is dependent on new expansion/chapters which must be regularly paid for.Most of all: an online story-based product implies a singleplayer game with multiplayer hubs that, for the first time, must be paid for by a monthly rent rather than paid for and owned outright by the player.
And that's why many of us are concerned. These are legitimate concerns and this is a legitimate forum in which to voice those concerns.The points that you listed are valid, however all the complaining about SW:TOR being a linear themepark which is storydriven with no replayability is pure conjecture at this point seeing as there are currently no examples of actual gameplay released. Once the game is released and it follows your above examples then people can bitch and moan but until that time the handful of posters in this thread who are having issues with the way the game is being developed need to relax, go grab a fat-free latte, and read a book.
In the end, if SW:TOR is released the way you seem to predict then there are other non-story driven MMOs out there that you may find enjoyable, because I honestly do not think that the Devs at Bioware are here at MMORPG.COM reading this thread, seeing 5 or 6 unhappy players and then deciding to completely redirect their development concept from ground up just because a few disgruntled posters say they should.
I agree with what the OP says on a personal level however I do not agree that it represents most MMO players think they want.
Good stories demand the full attention of the audience, games are an interactive media. Despite how multi-tasking we think we are, the human brain is NOT multi-tasking. It absorbs information better if it is not multi-tasking. This is why good stories demand full attention of its audience and having its audience do other tasks, removes the audience from the ascetics of the story and then they need to be re-calibrated.
This is why, stories in games are always a disaster. The only way to tell a good story in a game is to remove most of the interactivity and choices behind the game.
Its important to note that Quests are intretsing to people mostly becuase of the interactivity behind it. The story of the quest might create a better or worse ascetics. But no quest will ever be as good as a very good TV series or Movie.
Speaking for myself, I don’t read the stories.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
As one of the people who is frequently called a fanboi for this game, let me refute your points a little, mh?
1) Where in creation did story-based gameplay lead (automatically) to a narrow and closed world? As far as we are aware, BiOWare is doing the story-elements in sort of instances (I say sort of, because the Engine they are using is streamlining those rather differently than what we are used to).
2) Storey-Based games are games on rails with many parting of ways on the tracks. At least in BioWare's case and at least as far as what we know is concerned. meaning, you have only half a point there. Yes, the game will be "directed" to a degree, as in, you will have an overarching story, but -how- that story plays out and in which direction it goes is up to you.
3) A game with a unique story to every class as well as several different paths along the storyline is very conductive to replayability. In fact, I would say it is much more conductive to replayability than a game without story. Why? Well, what's the fun in grinding through a game again, when you have nothing to do BUT grind an? Isn't a good, new story much more compelling? Kind of reading a second book in a book series with a different main character.
4) If there were only the story in the game, then yes, I would agree. Which is also why I have repeatedly siad that I hope/pray that BW do not simply slap on some half-arsed end-game content, but have decent/fun PvP, interesting Raids and social areas for players to RP. All of this has been confirmed to be in the game, the wuestion however is -how- it is in the game. Nonetheless, the story, in this case, is only one part of the game.
And lastly:
It has been said in interviews before. It will NOT be a singleplayer experience with multiplayer hubs. It will NOT be like GuildWars. That's not what they are doing.
At least that's what they are saying. Now of course, you can say the Dev's are lying. But then, as I said to other people on this board, there is no use arguing, is there? If you think everything we have been told is a lie, then why the hell bother to argue anything? There's no evidence to be had anyway then.
Why is BioWare talking so much about story? Because it is the thing that sets it apart from other MMO's. Why would they talk about PvP? Why would they talk about Raids? Why would they talk about social hubs? That's all stuff that other games have and that have been demonstrated before. Story, as done in this game, hasn't been there before. So that's what they are promoting. Makes perfect sense, don't you agree?
Now, if in the future, they continue to not say anything about PvP and other End-Game activities, that'll be different. If by the time of beta we still don't know how these things will work or to what degree they will be in, then that's different.
I hope that BW realizes that the end-game content, the part after the story has to be solid and fun as well. If they fail to realize that, then yes, that will be the point where your predictions come true. But so far, they have talked about all the things that are necessary in interviews. Just because you choose to believe the Dev#s are lying to you doesn't mean they are.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Themeparks are fun at the beggining but get old fast,they are another form of "carrot on a stick",except the stick breaks faster.
Riiiight. So developer interviews do not count. I get it. Your opinion or interpretation counts. Good. I get it.
Secondly. If you were able to read, you'd have realized I said the -story- will be introduced in instances. That is, parts of the story where instancing makes sense. If you had read recent interviews, you would know this. Obviously though, you choose to stick to your own theory of the world being completely instanced. Never mind you didn't even bother to check up on HeroEngines instancing mechanics.
Thirdly, since all you are doing is trying to twist words, I have a vague feeling this discussion is not going anywhere.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
speak for yourself
I agree about story being too much
but if people didn't like grinds then they'd play mmos without grinds and not mmos with tons of grinds
but they're doing the opposite of what they reportedly like and doing what they supposedly dislike
There's like 15 replies in this thread within the nature of "speak for yourself." Well of course I'm speaking for myself, that's the core nature of forums. Everyone here is speaking of opinion, nobody is some spokesperson. Sheesh...
Anyway, who said anything about grind? Under no circumstance is story an effort to replace grind, which is entirely my point. Instead of fixing things like grind/classes/kill boar quests, the devs add on new, unnecessary things like story when they should instead be fixing the gripes people have about the genre.
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Well then don't say in the title: Nobody gives a crap...
So you assumed everyone is like you and don't care about the story and of course the ones who do will stand up and prove you otherwise. So you brought it on yourself.
When posting next time, write: I don't give a crap...
p.s. I do care about the story - especially when I need to make a choice and it affects the gameplay like planned in this game.
The biggest problem for devs is there still looking at wow as a base to make a game no one is really willing to try and make a land mark case for something new because where talking millions of dollars and none of them in the long run cares what we think its not our money making the game it becomes are issue once we spend money for it and resub monthly thats when its our issue but by then you go 2 ways quit or play it till you get eventually get bored out of your mind with it...
I dont think there really is a fix for this till someone is willing to stop looking at wow as the model i personally quit paying for mmo's because im just tired of the same thing grind your levels grind crafting or jus grinding anything in general..anyone think of making something not based on having to grind use life as a base do you see us going out and killing furry woodland creatures to get experience no...we train by doing the art and practicing it....storyline is only a small issue they need to fix the content first before you can actually make a story that works...
Look at lotr great story why isnt everyone playing that the reason content of combat no pvp worth a crap everyone has moved up a level and is trying to find that next pvp game that makes them say jeez awsome combat nice story.
What a ridiculous thread. I wouldn't say that story is what makes an mmo good, but it certainly could help, and none of us even know how well it does or doesn't work.
If everyone did have the same opinion as you, then Mortal Online would have twice as many website visits per day as www.swtor.com, and Darkfall Online would have already hit one million subs.
speak for yourself
I agree about story being too much
but if people didn't like grinds then they'd play mmos without grinds and not mmos with tons of grinds
but they're doing the opposite of what they reportedly like and doing what they supposedly dislike
There's like 15 replies in this thread within the nature of "speak for yourself." Well of course I'm speaking for myself, that's the core nature of forums. Everyone here is speaking of opinion, nobody is some spokesperson. Sheesh...
Anyway, who said anything about grind? Under no circumstance is story an effort to replace grind, which is entirely my point. Instead of fixing things like grind/classes/kill boar quests, the devs add on new, unnecessary things like story when they should instead be fixing the gripes people have about the genre.
I highlighted it for you.
'Unnecessary things like story' is presenting your opinion as fact.
While you mean that YOU are not interested in story in a MMO and find it unnecessary, every time you present it either as fact or claim that everyone else agrees with you. Naturally people react to this, because they dont like it when other people put words or opinions in their mouths.
Basically all this means is that you already know that you probably wont like this game because of its focus on story. If you brought it like this, people would at the most accuse you from jumping to conclusions.
The biggest problem with the MMO genre as a whole is the community.
Why not?
Why not?
Because innovation will ruin things?
I for one am excited, and I think the story arch is a great way to draw players into the game. It might not appeal to all people, and thats fine, no game will do that. But the type of player that it appeals to is just the type of player I want to be playing this game with.
Story? I'd rather buy a book if I wished to read and get involved in a story.
The only aspects of Tortage you had to participate in was the quest to enter the city, and the final quest to leave the island. In total, about 10 to 15 minutes of scripted, linear content. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.