I'm a big advocate of allowing people to play games however they want, and it's nice for the game developers to try to cater to everybody. However, it's hard to play like you want when you want to find a group and make friends, but most players would rather solo, or never even speak to the group when you do invite them. It's just my opinion, but I believe that gear progression has alot to do with this, which relates to instant gratification somewhat. The emphasis has moved away from the community as a whole, and is now focused on individual statistics to a very large degree in alot of current games.
The problem is, most groups are just a lose association of individuals all in it for individual loot and individual XP, who would stab another team member in the back if it meant getting an extra share of the take. There is no impetus for anyone to talk in a group, everyone is too busy trying to rush through content as fast as possible to grab as much XP in as short a period of time as possible. Group, get to the end fast, get out of the group and count your winnings.
That's supposed to be something to look forward to? At least playing solo, I've never screwed myself over for an item.
In the sheep analogy, people arent the sheep. The sheep is the MMO genre. WOW killed the genre by modifying everything for the sake of the sheeps meat (success) But you can only kill the sheep for its meat once. Now we are left with the consequences of the dead sheep: design decisions like instant gratification is one of them. The sheep is dead and we cant change people who were influenced by WOW. Neither other developers who cant skin the sheep for its fur anymore either. Now that the sheep is dead, other developers cant skin it. People are left without the fur, and the meat is ending.
That's a bloody silly analogy you have there; they're supposed to clarify, not convolute.
It would be far simpler if you stay away from analogies and just say what you mean.
WoW has brought many non-traditional MMO gamers into the genre.
This in turn leads profit-minded developers to design their products with the aim of catering to this newly emergent mainstream market rather than to the diehard fans of pre-WoW MMOs; i.e. you.
Unfortunate as it may be, two things are true:
1. Developers will continue to target mainstream majorities in order to maximise profits.
2. That newly emergent mainstream ain't going away.
There's a symbiotic relationship at work here; the developers get a large market (and are happy) and the mainstream gets a steady influx of new games to choose from (and are also happy).
The only unhappy party is, well .. you. You're a minority, which means that there is no benefit for a large developer to prioritise your needs/desires over the mainstream market when deciding how to spend their $100m development money.
The only hope that you have is for indie developers, who generally aren't well funded, to target a game specifically at your playstyle in the hope of cashing in by filling a niche. Best of luck with that; everyone deserves to find an MMO they enjoy.
Just don't expect yours to be a AAA title, 'cos you're just setting yourself up for frustration.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
That kind of gratification is missing the accomplishment. You didn't work for it, it feels like nothing. What's the purpose then, when you get really nothing out of it after a while?
Don't take this the wrong way, but the idea of "accomplishment" for sitting in front of your computer or TV with a keyboard/mouse or controller in your hand seems a bit silly. Moving an imaginary charcter around an imaginary world and thinking you've actually managed to do something worthwhile that you ought to be proud of.. um... sure.
It's a form of entertainment, something to do when you've got nothing better to do. The idea of being "hardcore" is utterly ridiculous, it's like "hardcore" stamp collecting. People with that kind of outlook probably ought to get out of their mother's basements.
Originally posted by Interesting Very reasonable. Let casual players fight and defeat Arthas, its fine. But dont cap the game so it doesnt matter how hard hardcore players work, their rewards wont be meaningfull and effective to the point when they can just overpower Arthas like the casuals would never be able to do. Thats what I think should be the difference. Casuals should be able to do it in a raid group, in lets say less than one month. But if hardcore players keep playing for 6 months 10+ hours a day non stop whatever hard work they spent should translate to meaningfull rewards/power so that they would easilly kill Arthas in a little group like it was nothing. That would be meaningfull. We worked hard, we spent so much time and effort, that we evolved and progressed to a point that what once was hard (kill Arthas) when we were barelly able to do it (at the power curve of casual players after one month after the release of the expansion) and now we can even kill him in a little group! Thats proof that our time spent was worthy, because it caused a meaningfull effect. Thats it. Not like it is now, where if hardcore players spent 2 thousand hours they just get a little stronger, no. They should get many times stronger, without diminishing returns auto-balancing their strenght from the casual players. Such mechanics just removes the reward aspect from the achievers and those who love the game and want to play it over and over and still feel rewarded like they did in the first month.
Isn't this exactly what Blizzard is doing?
The power level between progressive raider and a 'casual' is quite apparent in the game. A 'casual' who just reached 80 will struggle in trying to complete a level 80 instance or a entry level heroic. A 'casual' who has been working on gearing up and has 5man heroic and emblem epics will do fine in most heroics but still struggle with some of the harder events and achievements. A well geared 10man raider will have little problem with heroics and a 25man raider will 'faceroll' his way through them.
Now that 'casuals' are slowly catching up to the progressive raiders, Blizzards is working on bringing a new set of content that will introduce new gear that will make the progressive raiders even more powerfull so entry level casual content will be a joke to them.
Again. Please remember the roots of all RPGs are tabletoppers like D&D. Think you're gonna get epic-level magical weapons and a rod of wishes just for wallking around town and killing 1-2 kobolds by yourself? No. You might get some decent gear, but unless your GM runs a Monty Haul, you're going to need a full party for that level of reward. you can't give people that kind of reward for solo play even IF you develop a solo caompaign that complex, involved, and challenging. Simple because some roles in games are not suited to difficult solo fights. And if you tailor those roles/classes' campaigns to be that much easier, the ones who have it harder will feel like they were punished for being more capable of soloing. You can't win. Also, if you're playing MMOs just to talk/mingle, let me introduce you to a little thing called IRC.
Except it's not. Oh, it's nice to think that tabletop RPGs are the precursors of the MMO, but it just isn't the case. In a tabletop RPG, the only way to play at all is to get a group of people together around the same table and play. If the group can't make it, you can't play. But in an MMO, there's no group, no table, just you and your computer and you can get online any time you want, whether there's anyone to group with in the game or not.
People who only want to play in games where you have to be in a group ought to go back to sitting around a table, but the rest of the planet has moved on from that, that's why the tabletop RPG industry is in the crapper.
Lets face it, hardcores embrace the "caste" system in MMOs while casuals do not. We will never get along and arguing about it will never change anyone's mind. They are competing play styles and developers are still too stupid to realize that mixing them together in the same game is bad business. Of course, hardcores love the mix. It guarantees a constant influx of noobles for them to lord it over by flashing their e-peens.
Once developers get a clue in this regard, I forsee the MMO genre really taking off beyond anything that WoW ever achieved. There are more console and single player gamers than MMO gamers. Do you think we'll ever draw them in with hardcore game play? It's already proven to be true that they won't be drawn in, but we've yet to see a true casual game with no hardcore elements in it at all, other than kiddie games. Once it does happen, you'll be amazed at the explosion of new players to the genre. Hell, even Free Realms, kiddie game extreme, has more Western subscribers than WoW. The majority of WoW subscribers are outside of the West.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I dont think getting an item, getting a level, doing a quest, or killing an ai monster is an accomplishment. Usually its just something I have to dredge through to get to the fun part of the game PvP.
Since when did PvP get to be fun? It's usually a bunch of losers hiding behind computer screens waving their ridiculous e-peens around screaming "LOOK AT MY DICK!"
PvP is more popular than raiding, but that isn't saying much. Niche gamers feel the need to push their play style exactly because it is niche.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by Interesting Very reasonable. Let casual players fight and defeat Arthas, its fine. But dont cap the game so it doesnt matter how hard hardcore players work, their rewards wont be meaningfull and effective to the point when they can just overpower Arthas like the casuals would never be able to do. Thats what I think should be the difference. Casuals should be able to do it in a raid group, in lets say less than one month. But if hardcore players keep playing for 6 months 10+ hours a day non stop whatever hard work they spent should translate to meaningfull rewards/power so that they would easilly kill Arthas in a little group like it was nothing. That would be meaningfull. We worked hard, we spent so much time and effort, that we evolved and progressed to a point that what once was hard (kill Arthas) when we were barelly able to do it (at the power curve of casual players after one month after the release of the expansion) and now we can even kill him in a little group! Thats proof that our time spent was worthy, because it caused a meaningfull effect. Thats it. Not like it is now, where if hardcore players spent 2 thousand hours they just get a little stronger, no. They should get many times stronger, without diminishing returns auto-balancing their strenght from the casual players. Such mechanics just removes the reward aspect from the achievers and those who love the game and want to play it over and over and still feel rewarded like they did in the first month.
Isn't this exactly what Blizzard is doing?
The power level between progressive raider and a 'casual' is quite apparent in the game. A 'casual' who just reached 80 will struggle in trying to complete a level 80 instance or a entry level heroic. A 'casual' who has been working on gearing up and has 5man heroic and emblem epics will do fine in most heroics but still struggle with some of the harder events and achievements. A well geared 10man raider will have little problem with heroics and a 25man raider will 'faceroll' his way through them.
Now that 'casuals' are slowly catching up to the progressive raiders, Blizzards is working on bringing a new set of content that will introduce new gear that will make the progressive raiders even more powerfull so entry level casual content will be a joke to them.
I wish it were even more pronounced.
I just watched Blizzcon 2008 Q&A pannel yesterday and one of the things that stuck with me was
"We never say never, except for a few things: WOW will always be an item based game".
Originally posted by Torik Isn't this exactly what Blizzard is doing? The power level between progressive raider and a 'casual' is quite apparent in the game. A 'casual' who just reached 80 will struggle in trying to complete a level 80 instance or a entry level heroic. A 'casual' who has been working on gearing up and has 5man heroic and emblem epics will do fine in most heroics but still struggle with some of the harder events and achievements. A well geared 10man raider will have little problem with heroics and a 25man raider will 'faceroll' his way through them. Now that 'casuals' are slowly catching up to the progressive raiders, Blizzards is working on bringing a new set of content that will introduce new gear that will make the progressive raiders even more powerfull so entry level casual content will be a joke to them.
I wish it were even more pronounced.
I just watched Blizzcon 2008 Q&A pannel yesterday and one of the things that stuck with me was
"We never say never, except for a few things: WOW will always be an item based game".
If the gear gap was larger then they recreate their problems from vanilla WoW and give the raiders too much of an advantage in PvP. Then they have to raise the power of the basic PvP gear to compensate and we are back to the Eazy Epics argument.
Plus they do not really need to raise the power level of the raid gear any further without adding another 'wall' to the raid progression. As it is right now it allows a smoother transition between raid tiers without having to have everyone completely geared out before attempting the next tier.
Anyway it's not like the raiders are 'better' players and have some natural right to gear way better then what a 'casual' can get. They get more powerful gear because they are doing content that requires more powerful gear. Anything else is just vanity and 'epeen' issues.
Originally posted by Torik Isn't this exactly what Blizzard is doing? The power level between progressive raider and a 'casual' is quite apparent in the game. A 'casual' who just reached 80 will struggle in trying to complete a level 80 instance or a entry level heroic. A 'casual' who has been working on gearing up and has 5man heroic and emblem epics will do fine in most heroics but still struggle with some of the harder events and achievements. A well geared 10man raider will have little problem with heroics and a 25man raider will 'faceroll' his way through them. Now that 'casuals' are slowly catching up to the progressive raiders, Blizzards is working on bringing a new set of content that will introduce new gear that will make the progressive raiders even more powerfull so entry level casual content will be a joke to them.
I wish it were even more pronounced.
I just watched Blizzcon 2008 Q&A pannel yesterday and one of the things that stuck with me was
"We never say never, except for a few things: WOW will always be an item based game".
If the gear gap was larger then they recreate their problems from vanilla WoW and give the raiders too much of an advantage in PvP. Then they have to raise the power of the basic PvP gear to compensate and we are back to the Eazy Epics argument.
Plus they do not really need to raise the power level of the raid gear any further without adding another 'wall' to the raid progression. As it is right now it allows a smoother transition between raid tiers without having to have everyone completely geared out before attempting the next tier.
Anyway it's not like the raiders are 'better' players and have some natural right to gear way better then what a 'casual' can get. They get more powerful gear because they are doing content that requires more powerful gear. Anything else is just vanity and 'epeen' issues.
It doesnt satisfy me the way it is now, therefore I quit back then. Limiting (balancing difference of time and effort spent) my progression to allow casuals to compete is giving them instant gratification, the gratification to compete with me, whose power wasnt instantly achieved.
I think Devs these days have almost no say in creating something that is out of the ordinary, i guess its bc the publishers and marketing department are the ones that pulling the strings. If the quick shiny roxxor armor is the key to Joe's wallet he can have it , they want the shiny $$.
Seems lots of the MMO players who want some real innovation in the MMO department are still a minority , cuz these guys do their researches before they spend money on anything and from those researches (i guess) they built the pattern for the game mechanics ect.
Ima sadist sanders even dead ima beat it to the next level
just saying, in 15 pages I would of thought people could see all points of views on this subject instead of arguing the old tried arguments over and over again.
Instead of blaming the players, have you considered that the game's structure is at fault? Let's look at WoW as an example, seeing as it's very popular. I don't see Blizzard glorifying and advertising their low level content, do you? No. It's all about end-game. They make those raid dungeons look so awesome, they promise all this great loot, but, oh wait, you have to be level 80! Don't blame people for wanting to rush through the "unimportant" things like leveling. The gear is usually worse, the quests are usually worse, the dungeons at those lower levels are usually empty, the battlegrounds are not as populated, etc., etc. This isn't as severe in WoW only because it has so many subs, but if you take any other game that is similar but has less subs, you start seeing the picture. MMOs today are all about "the grass is greener when you're max level". Some like it, some don't. If you try to have the game start at level 1, you'll end up being criticized because "you're doing the same thing at level 1 as you are at level 40!" Of course, some of those same people later on cry, "Why should there be levels? Why should I have to be XX level in order to do something?" Hypocrisy at its best. I've met many casuals who look at WoW and other MMOs as just a way to relax, like you mentioned, because they have limited time to play. Sure, they want to feel like they accomplish something even if they don't have much time, and that may be what you're linking "instant gratification" to. If you want timesinks, by all means, MMO devs are capable of giving them to you.
But you can't have MMOs without timesinks of some kind, since devs need those sub money you pay. So they NEED you to waste your time and keep you in, all at the same time. But instead of making the ride enjoyable, they make it a carrot on a bloody stick. It's just... Strange.
It's not strange it's plain lazy. Making something enjoyable but having it take a long time takes time, effort, ingenuity and money on their part of which they would not rather spend unless they have to do so in the first place to retain customers. If they can get away with "Shucking and Jiving" you with cheap repetitive experiences and still have you subscribed as customer while doing so then they continue on as usual. Since most MMO players allow if not encourage the same old repetitive play style they usually get the same old leveling style MMO's with little innovation but only varied amounts of grind from one extreme to another depending on game. The majority of MMO companies would love for you to waste time oodles and oodles of time leveling because that means you keep paying them money. Greed and low expectations FTW !
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
In fact, it's been bugging me a lot, after I started to read these boards. Ahem... So we have casual players. Cool, they're welcome, they pay devs bills and run around and solo stuff. Yes, I don't understand them, but that's cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But tell me... Why do you need to level and get everything so fast? See, "casual" seems to translate these days to "instant gratificationist", when most of them pose themselves, as "busy people" who have limiteed hours of play (and time managment is a word unheard of, but let's not dig into this). Fine, limited time, say, five hours a week. Why is it so important to you, to be able to get to the top as fast as you can? Why is it important to you, to have that "best gear"? Why can't you just enhoy the game, the way it is? Sure, you have less time and will hit the top quite behind the "elite", possibly in half a year or a full one. Why is that a problem? You get to play the game and enjoy the process. Not only that, but most of today's MMO content is manageable in 1-2 hour chunks, why not? Why do you want it faster and easier, when all you really should do is take the things slower and without the fuss? Why is that such a big problem, whether you hit the max level in three or six months? WHY?
Why is it so important to you, to be able to get to the top as fast as you can?
It's not. What's important to me is hitting the next level so that I have that talent point or new spell to play with, and then finishing that toon so I can start another one and spend his talent points and play with his new spells every level.
Getting that ding and playing with your new abilities is the only thing fun in mmorpgs. Standing in one spot spamming the attack button for 40 hours just to get that 1 talent point is NOT fun.
I grew up on Shadowbane. 31 freaking classes and about 2 days to max level if you're lazy. I played that for nearly six years and I STILL haven't played with every power and ability. There are still countless types of toons I haven't made in that game. In WoW or similar games, after killing your first mob and targeting the next you've done just about all there is to do in that game, sarcastically of course, but you get the picture.
Why do people who started out with "one toon every 5 years" games like EQ think that they are the only people with the right to an opinion on mmo gameplay? WHY?
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
Sorry I am a ‘hardcore’, the thread would be dead, but I took that dead horse, crafted it’s hide into a suit of leather armour, it’s guts into new bow string and made a totem out of it’s skull.
The casual player disappeared of into the plains looking for another horse to slay for 1 xp.
It is not instant gratification that bugs you, its people who believe a game should be fun from day one, rather than needing to level for 200 hundreds before the real fun begins.
They won't be any happier without levels, its not the levels or the time it takes to level that is the problem. It is the simple fact that levelling in the vast majority of MMOs is the most boring experience you can find in ANY game, not just in MMOs.
People won't play a boring game and they sure as hell won't pay for a boring game, but as they have no choice if they must play an MMO, they will keep demanding that levelling takes less time.
I wouldn't call myself a casual. I raided pretty heavily both in EQ1 and EQ2. My wife and I tried LOTRO and Vanguard but didn't stay in either very long; LOTRO because it was boring and Vanguard because there was nobody to play with (and we really liked that game).
I simply don't like the leveling part of the game. I'm happy to spend many hours and many months at top level working on high end quests and getting geared out. I love to raid. I simply don't like grinding meaningless levels. I'd be perfectly happy to be able to create a character at max level and get to playing the real game, not the level grinding garbage.
Comments
In the sheep analogy, people arent the sheep.
The sheep is the MMO genre.
WOW killed the genre by modifying everything for the sake of the sheeps meat (success)
But you can only kill the sheep for its meat once.
Now we are left with the consequences of the dead sheep: design decisions like instant gratification is one of them.
The sheep is dead and we cant change people who were influenced by WOW. Neither other developers who cant skin the sheep for its fur anymore either.
Now that the sheep is dead, other developers cant skin it.
People are left without the fur, and the meat is ending.
The problem is, most groups are just a lose association of individuals all in it for individual loot and individual XP, who would stab another team member in the back if it meant getting an extra share of the take. There is no impetus for anyone to talk in a group, everyone is too busy trying to rush through content as fast as possible to grab as much XP in as short a period of time as possible. Group, get to the end fast, get out of the group and count your winnings.
That's supposed to be something to look forward to? At least playing solo, I've never screwed myself over for an item.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
That's a bloody silly analogy you have there; they're supposed to clarify, not convolute.
It would be far simpler if you stay away from analogies and just say what you mean.
WoW has brought many non-traditional MMO gamers into the genre.
This in turn leads profit-minded developers to design their products with the aim of catering to this newly emergent mainstream market rather than to the diehard fans of pre-WoW MMOs; i.e. you.
Unfortunate as it may be, two things are true:
1. Developers will continue to target mainstream majorities in order to maximise profits.
2. That newly emergent mainstream ain't going away.
There's a symbiotic relationship at work here; the developers get a large market (and are happy) and the mainstream gets a steady influx of new games to choose from (and are also happy).
The only unhappy party is, well .. you. You're a minority, which means that there is no benefit for a large developer to prioritise your needs/desires over the mainstream market when deciding how to spend their $100m development money.
The only hope that you have is for indie developers, who generally aren't well funded, to target a game specifically at your playstyle in the hope of cashing in by filling a niche. Best of luck with that; everyone deserves to find an MMO they enjoy.
Just don't expect yours to be a AAA title, 'cos you're just setting yourself up for frustration.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Don't take this the wrong way, but the idea of "accomplishment" for sitting in front of your computer or TV with a keyboard/mouse or controller in your hand seems a bit silly. Moving an imaginary charcter around an imaginary world and thinking you've actually managed to do something worthwhile that you ought to be proud of.. um... sure.
It's a form of entertainment, something to do when you've got nothing better to do. The idea of being "hardcore" is utterly ridiculous, it's like "hardcore" stamp collecting. People with that kind of outlook probably ought to get out of their mother's basements.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Isn't this exactly what Blizzard is doing?
The power level between progressive raider and a 'casual' is quite apparent in the game. A 'casual' who just reached 80 will struggle in trying to complete a level 80 instance or a entry level heroic. A 'casual' who has been working on gearing up and has 5man heroic and emblem epics will do fine in most heroics but still struggle with some of the harder events and achievements. A well geared 10man raider will have little problem with heroics and a 25man raider will 'faceroll' his way through them.
Now that 'casuals' are slowly catching up to the progressive raiders, Blizzards is working on bringing a new set of content that will introduce new gear that will make the progressive raiders even more powerfull so entry level casual content will be a joke to them.
Except it's not. Oh, it's nice to think that tabletop RPGs are the precursors of the MMO, but it just isn't the case. In a tabletop RPG, the only way to play at all is to get a group of people together around the same table and play. If the group can't make it, you can't play. But in an MMO, there's no group, no table, just you and your computer and you can get online any time you want, whether there's anyone to group with in the game or not.
People who only want to play in games where you have to be in a group ought to go back to sitting around a table, but the rest of the planet has moved on from that, that's why the tabletop RPG industry is in the crapper.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Lets face it, hardcores embrace the "caste" system in MMOs while casuals do not. We will never get along and arguing about it will never change anyone's mind. They are competing play styles and developers are still too stupid to realize that mixing them together in the same game is bad business. Of course, hardcores love the mix. It guarantees a constant influx of noobles for them to lord it over by flashing their e-peens.
Once developers get a clue in this regard, I forsee the MMO genre really taking off beyond anything that WoW ever achieved. There are more console and single player gamers than MMO gamers. Do you think we'll ever draw them in with hardcore game play? It's already proven to be true that they won't be drawn in, but we've yet to see a true casual game with no hardcore elements in it at all, other than kiddie games. Once it does happen, you'll be amazed at the explosion of new players to the genre. Hell, even Free Realms, kiddie game extreme, has more Western subscribers than WoW. The majority of WoW subscribers are outside of the West.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Since when did PvP get to be fun? It's usually a bunch of losers hiding behind computer screens waving their ridiculous e-peens around screaming "LOOK AT MY DICK!"
Sorry, where's the fun again?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
PvP is more popular than raiding, but that isn't saying much. Niche gamers feel the need to push their play style exactly because it is niche.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Isn't this exactly what Blizzard is doing?
The power level between progressive raider and a 'casual' is quite apparent in the game. A 'casual' who just reached 80 will struggle in trying to complete a level 80 instance or a entry level heroic. A 'casual' who has been working on gearing up and has 5man heroic and emblem epics will do fine in most heroics but still struggle with some of the harder events and achievements. A well geared 10man raider will have little problem with heroics and a 25man raider will 'faceroll' his way through them.
Now that 'casuals' are slowly catching up to the progressive raiders, Blizzards is working on bringing a new set of content that will introduce new gear that will make the progressive raiders even more powerfull so entry level casual content will be a joke to them.
I wish it were even more pronounced.
I just watched Blizzcon 2008 Q&A pannel yesterday and one of the things that stuck with me was
"We never say never, except for a few things: WOW will always be an item based game".
I wish it were even more pronounced.
I just watched Blizzcon 2008 Q&A pannel yesterday and one of the things that stuck with me was
"We never say never, except for a few things: WOW will always be an item based game".
If the gear gap was larger then they recreate their problems from vanilla WoW and give the raiders too much of an advantage in PvP. Then they have to raise the power of the basic PvP gear to compensate and we are back to the Eazy Epics argument.
Plus they do not really need to raise the power level of the raid gear any further without adding another 'wall' to the raid progression. As it is right now it allows a smoother transition between raid tiers without having to have everyone completely geared out before attempting the next tier.
Anyway it's not like the raiders are 'better' players and have some natural right to gear way better then what a 'casual' can get. They get more powerful gear because they are doing content that requires more powerful gear. Anything else is just vanity and 'epeen' issues.
I wish it were even more pronounced.
I just watched Blizzcon 2008 Q&A pannel yesterday and one of the things that stuck with me was
"We never say never, except for a few things: WOW will always be an item based game".
If the gear gap was larger then they recreate their problems from vanilla WoW and give the raiders too much of an advantage in PvP. Then they have to raise the power of the basic PvP gear to compensate and we are back to the Eazy Epics argument.
Plus they do not really need to raise the power level of the raid gear any further without adding another 'wall' to the raid progression. As it is right now it allows a smoother transition between raid tiers without having to have everyone completely geared out before attempting the next tier.
Anyway it's not like the raiders are 'better' players and have some natural right to gear way better then what a 'casual' can get. They get more powerful gear because they are doing content that requires more powerful gear. Anything else is just vanity and 'epeen' issues.
It doesnt satisfy me the way it is now, therefore I quit back then. Limiting (balancing difference of time and effort spent) my progression to allow casuals to compete is giving them instant gratification, the gratification to compete with me, whose power wasnt instantly achieved.
I think Devs these days have almost no say in creating something that is out of the ordinary, i guess its bc the publishers and marketing department are the ones that pulling the strings. If the quick shiny roxxor armor is the key to Joe's wallet he can have it , they want the shiny $$.
Seems lots of the MMO players who want some real innovation in the MMO department are still a minority , cuz these guys do their researches before they spend money on anything and from those researches (i guess) they built the pattern for the game mechanics ect.
Horse is already dead, so stop beating it more
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
Ima sadist sanders even dead ima beat it to the next level
just saying, in 15 pages I would of thought people could see all points of views on this subject instead of arguing the old tried arguments over and over again.
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
i know i know , i was just kiddin.
MMORPG.COM has many dead horse topics ... what to do ? its the best game available atm ^^
It's not strange it's plain lazy. Making something enjoyable but having it take a long time takes time, effort, ingenuity and money on their part of which they would not rather spend unless they have to do so in the first place to retain customers. If they can get away with "Shucking and Jiving" you with cheap repetitive experiences and still have you subscribed as customer while doing so then they continue on as usual. Since most MMO players allow if not encourage the same old repetitive play style they usually get the same old leveling style MMO's with little innovation but only varied amounts of grind from one extreme to another depending on game. The majority of MMO companies would love for you to waste time oodles and oodles of time leveling because that means you keep paying them money. Greed and low expectations FTW !
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
one word... greed.
It's not. What's important to me is hitting the next level so that I have that talent point or new spell to play with, and then finishing that toon so I can start another one and spend his talent points and play with his new spells every level.
Getting that ding and playing with your new abilities is the only thing fun in mmorpgs. Standing in one spot spamming the attack button for 40 hours just to get that 1 talent point is NOT fun.
I grew up on Shadowbane. 31 freaking classes and about 2 days to max level if you're lazy. I played that for nearly six years and I STILL haven't played with every power and ability. There are still countless types of toons I haven't made in that game. In WoW or similar games, after killing your first mob and targeting the next you've done just about all there is to do in that game, sarcastically of course, but you get the picture.
Why do people who started out with "one toon every 5 years" games like EQ think that they are the only people with the right to an opinion on mmo gameplay? WHY?
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
People who are bugged by instant gratification bug me.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
No, yo momma!
/close thread
Sorry I am a ‘hardcore’, the thread would be dead, but I took that dead horse, crafted it’s hide into a suit of leather armour, it’s guts into new bow string and made a totem out of it’s skull.
The casual player disappeared of into the plains looking for another horse to slay for 1 xp.
It is not instant gratification that bugs you, its people who believe a game should be fun from day one, rather than needing to level for 200 hundreds before the real fun begins.
They won't be any happier without levels, its not the levels or the time it takes to level that is the problem. It is the simple fact that levelling in the vast majority of MMOs is the most boring experience you can find in ANY game, not just in MMOs.
People won't play a boring game and they sure as hell won't pay for a boring game, but as they have no choice if they must play an MMO, they will keep demanding that levelling takes less time.
I wouldn't call myself a casual. I raided pretty heavily both in EQ1 and EQ2. My wife and I tried LOTRO and Vanguard but didn't stay in either very long; LOTRO because it was boring and Vanguard because there was nobody to play with (and we really liked that game).
I simply don't like the leveling part of the game. I'm happy to spend many hours and many months at top level working on high end quests and getting geared out. I love to raid. I simply don't like grinding meaningless levels. I'd be perfectly happy to be able to create a character at max level and get to playing the real game, not the level grinding garbage.