VG is surely not a sandbox, nor a hybrid. Still it has more sandboxy features than FE. (placeable houses in most of the areas).
What defines a sandbox for a MMORPG is a player driven content. And player driven content is not if you meet up with your clan somewhere. Player driven content means 100% of the gamezone is to be modable. You and your actions can change the world as the others see it.
In WAR, you had a fixed keeps, fixed factions, and it always resetted, so it was rather a large scenerio than a sandbox feature.
FE does not have a sandbox content and does not support a sandbox gameplay outside of the pvp areas which are like 5% of all gameplay area. So they are again, rather scenarios just like in WAR. If you conquer the PvP points, the only thing that changes is the NPC's in the pvp town -> to your leader's faction and you can take new missions from them - learn new schematics, buy new items. Nothing new, nothing sandboxy.
Another non-sandbox gameplay feature is, that you are practically useless for your level 45 clan if you are not yet at least level 35. Both for crafting and for PvPing. And as I said before, crafting is capped by your level, so you never max out your tradeskills without first capping your level.
VG is surely not a sandbox, nor a hybrid. Still it has more sandboxy features than FE. (placeable houses in most of the areas). What defines a sandbox for a MMORPG is a player driven content. And player driven content is not if you meet up with your clan somewhere. Player driven content means 100% of the gamezone is to be modable. You and your actions can change the world as the others see it. In WAR, you had a fixed keeps, fixed factions, and it always resetted, so it was rather a large scenerio than a sandbox feature. FE does not have a sandbox content and does not support a sandbox gameplay outside of the pvp areas which are like 5% of all gameplay area. So they are again, rather scenarios just like in WAR. If you conquer the PvP points, the only thing that changes is the NPC's in the pvp town -> to your leader's faction and you can take new missions from them - learn new schematics, buy new items. Nothing new, nothing sandboxy. Another non-sandbox gameplay feature is, that you are practically useless for your level 45 clan if you are not yet at least level 35. Both for crafting and for PvPing. And as I said before, crafting is capped by your level, so you never max out your tradeskills without first capping your level.
So you're saying that its a themepark game with sandbox elements. I understand... its a hybrid. I said that.
No please re-read this sentence: "FE does not have a sandbox content and does not support a sandbox gameplay outside of the pvp areas which are like 5% of all gameplay area. So they are again, rather scenarios just like in WAR."
There's no really such a thing as a hybrid. Game is either a sandbox and supports player driven content, or is a theme park. Sure some are less linear theme parks and some are more, but that's it.
The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it. Fallen Earth is a like a huge concrete immovable castle with a trampoline and all you can do is to push other kids that are jumping too close to the middle.
No please re-read this sentence: "FE does not have a sandbox content and does not support a sandbox gameplay outside of the pvp areas which are like 5% of all gameplay area. So they are again, rather scenarios just like in WAR." There's no really such a thing as a hybrid. Game is either a sandbox and supports player driven content, or is a theme park. Sure some are less linear theme parks and some are more, but that's it.
Wait a second, so you're sitting there and telling me, that it does not support sandbox gameplay outside of a certain are, but it allows for sandbox play. Therefor since its not outside designated areas its not a hybrid.. But if it WAS outside the areas then it wouldn't be a hybrid anyways because then it would be a true sandbox in your definition.
So you're saying that if I put 5% of my coke in 95% of my water, it isn't a hybrid of coke and water, its just water. It has no element of coke in there.. eventhough its different, it tastes different, looks different, and smells different, theres no such thing as a hybrid (a mixing of 2 gameplay styles) so its obviously just one thing. I call shananigans sir.
If you admit that it has sandbox elements, you admit that you can't buy all items from merchants, and you admit that there could be a player driven content and economy, but refuse to accept it because theres no middle ground, then theres really nothing more that I can say. I think the real problem here is that if you give any credit of hybridization to FE for their achievements then it opens up a whole can of worms on what else could be considered a hybrid.
Now I have to go home and tell my dog thats half boxer half greyhound that I just found out she's not a mutt after all and that she's really a full bred boxer because %'s of two things in one don't count as hybridization anymore.
Going with the majority here that FE is a hybrid mmo.
But would say: FE Is a Themepark / Sandbox type mmo, instead of using Sandbox as the first word when defining.
FE to me plays a lot like the current SWG with AO game style.
Calling FE a full blown Themepark mmo is by choice on how the player describes the game, since the sandbox definition has changed alot since the birth of UO. Eve Online shows some themepark features as well, but heavily known as a Sandbox MMO.
Yes, everything is a hybrid. This way, we won't get anywhere. Every game has theme park features and sandbox features. I was trying to give you enough arguments to think that Fallen Earth in its core plays as a theme park. You got a pvp zone (that could translate as scenerios in War, or ettenmoors in Lotro or battlegrounds in WoW), and then you've got 95% of the game area absolutely immovable, unmodificable, whatever you like it.
Everything comes from either a faction rewards (driven by missions), or crafting (driven by vendors). Sure from time to time there are bits you only have to find or buy on AH, but a player driven economy demands everything to be either made by players or gathered.
In a sandbox game, your gameplay is radically different. But as I said in my first post, I like FE for what it is. I don't like sandbox games. I like theme parks with free open persistent worlds (vanguard).
Its a bit of both, It has quests but you can do your own thing for the most part, alot of quests are not linked like in most TP mmos but also has that feeling for more freedom that SB mmos give.
O and for the record a sandbox MMO is a incomplete mmo, mmos that have no story quest is just lazyness on the dev. part and calling it a sandbox is a way to shadow that fact, FE like I said gives you that freedom feel but also gives you a story to progress through deep crafting, I say the noly thing it lack would be a true play driven economy , as for homes that will come later on wi there new trade skill construction.
What I really want to say is this game is good, very good and has alot going for it, just give it time.
The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.
No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.
Yep, pretty much.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.
No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.
Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.
The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.
No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.
Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.
A sandbox is a game with non linear storyline, non linear character development, non linear world development. Last time I checked, FE fit those. BTW, just because you can do quests doesnt mean you have to complete quests in FE.
The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it.
No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.
Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.
A sandbox is a game with non linear storyline, non linear character development, non linear world development. Last time I checked, FE fit those. BTW, just because you can do quests doesnt mean you have to complete quests in FE.
No a sandbox game is a non-linear game. All MMOs are non-linear games by definition. Some are more linear than others but none is truly linear. Not one. Ever. The term is being misapplied in an attempt to denigrate MMOs some people don't "approve" of and that's not what it means. People need to communicate clearly rather than throwing bullshit labels at everything. If you don't know the origin of a term you cannot really understand what it means even if it has changed which this one hasn't.
I guess you were reading the wikipedia definition and now playing tricks here. Re-read what I wrote in the previous post and react to that please before making any more smart and insultive replies.
Its a bit of both, It has quests but you can do your own thing for the most part, alot of quests are not linked like in most TP mmos but also has that feeling for more freedom that SB mmos give.
Actually, most of the AP missions are linked together in a 5-10 mission chains.
After reading some of Thillian's posts, I for one am very thankful that FE is not a sandbox game.
I get the attraction to the sandbox concept, where anything can be created and anything destroyed. It makes the game seem more real, but at another level I'd say if you want harsh reality then get the hell off your computer and go outside. Personally I'm glad I can happily quest or gather or craft without another player shooting me, or the npc I might be trying to talk to. I'd also feel that I would need to play 10 hours a day just to keep up with a changing world.
I like playing MMOs but I also like being able to choose my friends. I sometimes think negative comments about MMO games because they do NOT force grouping or have world FFA PvP or a player-driven economy are from people who struggle to make friends.
In the end, games that allow for many playstyles will tend to succeed. One of the reasons FE is a gem for me is that I can play it my way, at my own pace and not feel somehow that I am missing out.
I keep getting the feeling that the people at Icarus are genuinely clever. I'm quietly looking forward to watching this game grow - and I am sure it will - and take the general mmo community by surprise.
Yes, everything is a hybrid. This way, we won't get anywhere. Every game has theme park features and sandbox features. I was trying to give you enough arguments to think that Fallen Earth in its core plays as a theme park. You got a pvp zone (that could translate as scenerios in War, or ettenmoors in Lotro or battlegrounds in WoW)more like low-sec space in EVE (if you disagree then you probably havn't been in a pvp zone yet), and then you've got 95% of the game area absolutely immovable, unmodificable, whatever you like it.
- player driven economy - not really there yet, but I find myself buying and selling more and more stuff in the AH. I will be making ATV's and Dune Buggies for sale. Can you buy those anywhere else? Nah, I don't think so. Conclusion: there WILL be a player driven economy. Especially if devs make more stuff bound (hate it, but nothing else can solve this...)
- character development: you can say level based, but levels don't mean crap. I didn't use my AP for my last 3-4 levels (have over 80 to spend ), so my char is almost the same as it was at level 18. Marginal difference. When I finally decide to join my faction, I will be able to formulate in exactly the way I want. No other character will be the same.
- player influenced storylines - I would not be surprised if this would be implemented later (like in Ryzom Rings), we shall see. The space, area is there
- optional elements: crafting is optional. Fighting is optional. questing is optional! Factions are optional.
I would not throw around terms like sandbox and themepark, as 1) they have no clear, commonly shared description, 2), some people are so obviously cemented in their own terminology, that they even take it personal at some level if someone tries to argue.
I, for one could not care less for terminology. FE has the above elements, most other current popular shiny copycat (or cookie cutter) games don't.
And we didn't even mention the setting - no elves or orcs here
FE is both different, as is both fun to play, which 2 alone combined are the best praises and the greatest achievement these days.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
No its not a sandbox game, it's still guides you through narratives from sector to sector. It's really a Fallout theme park themed MMO at this point in time, it can be turned in to a more sandbox game, the foundation is there, just not really used.
DB: Player driven economy is not when you can sell ATV and dune buggies on auction house, when all of its material is either bought from a vendor or gathered by yourself (and on the top of it, you need to finish the pretty long 4 mission chains from sector 1 to learn the schematics -- because they can't be bought anywhere else -- which supports the fact the game is mission driven). Every game out there including lotro, aoc which you surely wouldn't describe as player driven economies has certain items that are sold on auction house and that can only be crafted. That's surely not an argument.
Player driven economy is when the whole process of creation is dependant on material gathered or crafted by other players and you need to interact with them through either trade channel or auction hall. 99% of all mats in FE you can buy from vendors -- very cheaply, .. so cheaply, that the actual vendor prices are below the current auction hall prices (incredible isn't it?).
DB: Player driven economy is not when you can sell ATV and dune buggies on auction house, when all of its material is either bought from a vendor or gathered by yourself (and on the top of it, you need to finish the pretty long 4 mission chains from sector 1 to learn the schematics -- because they can't be bought anywhere else -- which supports the fact the game is mission driven). Every game out there including lotro, aoc which you surely wouldn't describe as player driven economies has certain items that are sold on auction house and that can only be crafted. That's surely not an argument. Player driven economy is when the whole process of creation is dependant on material gathered or crafted by other players and you need to interact with them through either trade channel or auction hall. 99% of all mats in FE you can buy from vendors -- very cheaply, .. so cheaply, that the actual vendor prices are below the current auction hall prices (incredible isn't it?).
1 - I didn't craft any of my ATV's without buying mats from the AH. Fail.
2 - ATV is the only recipe you need to do a quest for. Info skewed.
3 - Yes, Lotro has a player driven economy as well. Surprised? It does not mean, that everything is accessible ONLY from the AH, but nearly everyone buys potions, tokens, weapons, armor, some craft items, reputation tokens etc etc. I'm not sure you're clear on what "economy" means, but as far as looking at your very weird ideas on "sandbox", I can't say I'm surprised.
"Player driven economy is when the whole process of creation is dependant on material gathered or crafted by other players and you need to interact with them through either trade channel or auction hall. 99"
Precisely what I have been doing in Lotro and doing now in FE. Thanks for confirming it.
"99% of all mats in FE you can buy from vendors" - the question here is accessibility. You can (I did) sell mats in the AH for a much higher price than the vendor price, as the vendor selling it was very problematic to access from distant parts of the map. I am not sure how much time you spent observing the AH, but it seems not much at all. People DO sell and buy raw matsin the AH, many times at a higher price than the vendor price. By doing this, they can craft sitting in one town, maybe because they don't have the info about the cheap mat vendor, but most importantly and likely because of the complexity of the items. I could never manufacture a motorbike from vendor raw mats, as the variety and spread of given vendors does not make that possible- and not to mention, no vendor sells scrap glass in S1
Not only is FE economy player driven, but it is already showing signs of basic economical laws: effects of factors like availabilty on price. Very interesting to see how it will develop!
DB
Edit: I'm quite convinced, that there are already folks in the game who have discovered the gaps: like buying scrap wood for 4 chips apiece from the vendor on Embry, and sell them for 5/6/7 per piece. If you see a stack of 100 scrap wood for 6 blue chips, you might just buy it out. Easy, convenient, saves time!
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
3 - Yes, Lotro has a player driven economy as well. Surprised? It does not mean, that everything is accessible ONLY from the AH, but nearly everyone buys potions, tokens, weapons, armor, some craft items, reputation tokens etc etc. I'm not sure you're clear on what "economy" means, but as far as looking at your very weird ideas on "sandbox", I can't say I'm surprised.
This explains it a lot. You have the same useless definition for what player driven economy is or what is optional and what isnt. Based on your logic again, everything everywhere is optional, and everything everywhere is player driven economy. Again, that's a flawed attitude.
I precisely know what "economy" means. If it's player driven, then all prices are set by players in the game. It's that easy. In FE, 99% of all items are sold by vendors (yes including scrap glass in S1) Their price is set by developers. The economy is not player driven, but is already set.
EVERY MMO that has an AH, does have player-based economy. It is simple as that. If you can buy and sell between players, the prices will be driven be the same factors: supply - demand - availabilty (etc.). This, sooner or later prices will balance, and fluctuate based on the future trends in the game.
The question is: what percentage of ingame items are in this circulation?
In an average MMO it is usually consumables and some top gear. In FE, the percentage is certainly higher.
As per Thillian's utopia of a "100% pure player-made everything": sorry, it will never happen.
Why? Because there is just simply a need for infinite, easy to access source for items. (Vendors).
Imagine if there were no vendors.... Just to give an example, say, all the scrap steel that is used ingame would be only accessible by scavenging or manufactured from coal+scrap iron. I can see the situation, like this:
Thousands of people are yelling, screaming and bashing Icarus, how can they be that stupid to NOT put enough coal nodes /iron nodes/junk cars in the game, since there is absolutely no scrap steel on the market..... not only costs scrap steel 10 blue chips a piece, but everyone and their mother is node wrestling everywhere to fulfill the needs of all those who want to craft......
Hope you got the point?
For a freshly started game especially, the devs somehow need to guarantee, that everyone can start doing what they want. This is why there is access to all rawmats for all. Nodes are limited, vendors are not. They only need to make sure it is neither too cheap, nor too easy to access these sources, to avoid deflation. So, Icarus made some mats more expensive (31 chips for 1 single scrap steel is pricey, if you need 50 for just to research a buggy (let alone create it!!).
Also, they made vendor access randomized (a little), and scattered.
A very vivid example: you cannot buy scrap plastic in S1. Furthermore, only very few nodes yielded them.
Result: playerbase was whining, so they changed mob drop of hermit crabs and node drop of mutant chicken nests to yield plastic.
I hope you got the point now. What you are looking for will never be created, as it would just NOT work. Similar to true communism, actually
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
3 - Yes, Lotro has a player driven economy as well. Surprised? It does not mean, that everything is accessible ONLY from the AH, but nearly everyone buys potions, tokens, weapons, armor, some craft items, reputation tokens etc etc. I'm not sure you're clear on what "economy" means, but as far as looking at your very weird ideas on "sandbox", I can't say I'm surprised.
This explains it a lot. You have the same useless definition for what player driven economy is or what is optional and what isnt. Based on your logic again, everything everywhere is optional, and everything everywhere is player driven economy. Again, that's a flawed attitude.
I precisely know what "economy" means. If it's player driven, then all prices are set by players in the game. It's that easy. In FE, 99% of all items are sold by vendors (yes including scrap glass in S1) Their price is set by developers. The economy is not player driven, but is already set.
No dude, the situation is, that you have absolutely no clue about neither economy, nor MMO's: check my previous comment, you might get some understanding. And no, you cannot buy scrap glass in S1.
And yes, all the prices in game are determined by players. This is what AH does. Check again
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
There really isn't a question as to whether FE is a sandbox or not. It is not a sandbox at all in any way.
* Linear progression
* Lack of player driven content
* The economy is vendor-based
* The skill system is limited and does not actually encourage very unique builds. In other words, there is generally the BEST way to do things.
If someone were to call this game a hybrid, they would also have to call every other MMO on the market a hybrid. Which would make the word "Hybrid" useless to use in the first place. This is a theme park.
Comments
VG is surely not a sandbox, nor a hybrid. Still it has more sandboxy features than FE. (placeable houses in most of the areas).
What defines a sandbox for a MMORPG is a player driven content. And player driven content is not if you meet up with your clan somewhere. Player driven content means 100% of the gamezone is to be modable. You and your actions can change the world as the others see it.
In WAR, you had a fixed keeps, fixed factions, and it always resetted, so it was rather a large scenerio than a sandbox feature.
FE does not have a sandbox content and does not support a sandbox gameplay outside of the pvp areas which are like 5% of all gameplay area. So they are again, rather scenarios just like in WAR. If you conquer the PvP points, the only thing that changes is the NPC's in the pvp town -> to your leader's faction and you can take new missions from them - learn new schematics, buy new items. Nothing new, nothing sandboxy.
Another non-sandbox gameplay feature is, that you are practically useless for your level 45 clan if you are not yet at least level 35. Both for crafting and for PvPing. And as I said before, crafting is capped by your level, so you never max out your tradeskills without first capping your level.
REALITY CHECK
Is there a game that 100% of the world is modable?
So you're saying that its a themepark game with sandbox elements. I understand... its a hybrid. I said that.
No please re-read this sentence: "FE does not have a sandbox content and does not support a sandbox gameplay outside of the pvp areas which are like 5% of all gameplay area. So they are again, rather scenarios just like in WAR."
There's no really such a thing as a hybrid. Game is either a sandbox and supports player driven content, or is a theme park. Sure some are less linear theme parks and some are more, but that's it.
REALITY CHECK
The definition of a sandbox is right in the name. You can build whatever you want from the sand you are given and there's nothing more really in it. Fallen Earth is a like a huge concrete immovable castle with a trampoline and all you can do is to push other kids that are jumping too close to the middle.
REALITY CHECK
Wait a second, so you're sitting there and telling me, that it does not support sandbox gameplay outside of a certain are, but it allows for sandbox play. Therefor since its not outside designated areas its not a hybrid.. But if it WAS outside the areas then it wouldn't be a hybrid anyways because then it would be a true sandbox in your definition.
So you're saying that if I put 5% of my coke in 95% of my water, it isn't a hybrid of coke and water, its just water. It has no element of coke in there.. eventhough its different, it tastes different, looks different, and smells different, theres no such thing as a hybrid (a mixing of 2 gameplay styles) so its obviously just one thing. I call shananigans sir.
If you admit that it has sandbox elements, you admit that you can't buy all items from merchants, and you admit that there could be a player driven content and economy, but refuse to accept it because theres no middle ground, then theres really nothing more that I can say. I think the real problem here is that if you give any credit of hybridization to FE for their achievements then it opens up a whole can of worms on what else could be considered a hybrid.
Now I have to go home and tell my dog thats half boxer half greyhound that I just found out she's not a mutt after all and that she's really a full bred boxer because %'s of two things in one don't count as hybridization anymore.
Going with the majority here that FE is a hybrid mmo.
But would say: FE Is a Themepark / Sandbox type mmo, instead of using Sandbox as the first word when defining.
FE to me plays a lot like the current SWG with AO game style.
Calling FE a full blown Themepark mmo is by choice on how the player describes the game, since the sandbox definition has changed alot since the birth of UO. Eve Online shows some themepark features as well, but heavily known as a Sandbox MMO.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/vajuras/032008/1421_Sandbox-versus-Linear-Gameplay
Currently Playing: AO and FE.
Yes, everything is a hybrid. This way, we won't get anywhere. Every game has theme park features and sandbox features. I was trying to give you enough arguments to think that Fallen Earth in its core plays as a theme park. You got a pvp zone (that could translate as scenerios in War, or ettenmoors in Lotro or battlegrounds in WoW), and then you've got 95% of the game area absolutely immovable, unmodificable, whatever you like it.
Everything comes from either a faction rewards (driven by missions), or crafting (driven by vendors). Sure from time to time there are bits you only have to find or buy on AH, but a player driven economy demands everything to be either made by players or gathered.
In a sandbox game, your gameplay is radically different. But as I said in my first post, I like FE for what it is. I don't like sandbox games. I like theme parks with free open persistent worlds (vanguard).
REALITY CHECK
Its a bit of both, It has quests but you can do your own thing for the most part, alot of quests are not linked like in most TP mmos but also has that feeling for more freedom that SB mmos give.
O and for the record a sandbox MMO is a incomplete mmo, mmos that have no story quest is just lazyness on the dev. part and calling it a sandbox is a way to shadow that fact, FE like I said gives you that freedom feel but also gives you a story to progress through deep crafting, I say the noly thing it lack would be a true play driven economy , as for homes that will come later on wi there new trade skill construction.
What I really want to say is this game is good, very good and has alot going for it, just give it time.
No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.
Yep, pretty much.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.
Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.
REALITY CHECK
No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.
Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.
A sandbox is a game with non linear storyline, non linear character development, non linear world development. Last time I checked, FE fit those. BTW, just because you can do quests doesnt mean you have to complete quests in FE.
No it's not. It never has been and it never will be. If you knew the origins of the term you would know that couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that's true go load up UO and build me a subway car. You can only build or do what is programmed into the game and all computer games of any genre have that in common. UO isn't even the game the term comes from.
Noone's talking about the origin. The original definition can not apply to MMORPG's, because then every MMO's would probably end up being called a sandbox. There is still, the sandbox term which is shifting its definition for MMO's as they evolve.
A sandbox is a game with non linear storyline, non linear character development, non linear world development. Last time I checked, FE fit those. BTW, just because you can do quests doesnt mean you have to complete quests in FE.
No a sandbox game is a non-linear game. All MMOs are non-linear games by definition. Some are more linear than others but none is truly linear. Not one. Ever. The term is being misapplied in an attempt to denigrate MMOs some people don't "approve" of and that's not what it means. People need to communicate clearly rather than throwing bullshit labels at everything. If you don't know the origin of a term you cannot really understand what it means even if it has changed which this one hasn't.
I guess you were reading the wikipedia definition and now playing tricks here. Re-read what I wrote in the previous post and react to that please before making any more smart and insultive replies.
REALITY CHECK
Actually, most of the AP missions are linked together in a 5-10 mission chains.
REALITY CHECK
After reading some of Thillian's posts, I for one am very thankful that FE is not a sandbox game.
I get the attraction to the sandbox concept, where anything can be created and anything destroyed. It makes the game seem more real, but at another level I'd say if you want harsh reality then get the hell off your computer and go outside.
Personally I'm glad I can happily quest or gather or craft without another player shooting me, or the npc I might be trying to talk to. I'd also feel that I would need to play 10 hours a day just to keep up with a changing world.
I like playing MMOs but I also like being able to choose my friends. I sometimes think negative comments about MMO games because they do NOT force grouping or have world FFA PvP or a player-driven economy are from people who struggle to make friends.
In the end, games that allow for many playstyles will tend to succeed. One of the reasons FE is a gem for me is that I can play it my way, at my own pace and not feel somehow that I am missing out.
I keep getting the feeling that the people at Icarus are genuinely clever. I'm quietly looking forward to watching this game grow - and I am sure it will - and take the general mmo community by surprise.
Yes, everything is a hybrid. This way, we won't get anywhere. Every game has theme park features and sandbox features. I was trying to give you enough arguments to think that Fallen Earth in its core plays as a theme park. You got a pvp zone (that could translate as scenerios in War, or ettenmoors in Lotro or battlegrounds in WoW)more like low-sec space in EVE (if you disagree then you probably havn't been in a pvp zone yet), and then you've got 95% of the game area absolutely immovable, unmodificable, whatever you like it.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
FE = Theme park mmo
( linear , npc driven economy , level based progression, etc.. )
But a good game worth trying
****************************
Playing : Uncharted Waters Online
****************************
- player driven economy - not really there yet, but I find myself buying and selling more and more stuff in the AH. I will be making ATV's and Dune Buggies for sale. Can you buy those anywhere else? Nah, I don't think so. Conclusion: there WILL be a player driven economy. Especially if devs make more stuff bound (hate it, but nothing else can solve this...)
- character development: you can say level based, but levels don't mean crap. I didn't use my AP for my last 3-4 levels (have over 80 to spend
), so my char is almost the same as it was at level 18. Marginal difference. When I finally decide to join my faction, I will be able to formulate in exactly the way I want. No other character will be the same.
- player influenced storylines - I would not be surprised if this would be implemented later (like in Ryzom Rings), we shall see. The space, area is there
- optional elements: crafting is optional. Fighting is optional. questing is optional! Factions are optional.
I would not throw around terms like sandbox and themepark, as 1) they have no clear, commonly shared description, 2), some people are so obviously cemented in their own terminology, that they even take it personal at some level if someone tries to argue.
I, for one could not care less for terminology. FE has the above elements, most other current popular shiny copycat (or cookie cutter) games don't.
And we didn't even mention the setting - no elves or orcs here
FE is both different, as is both fun to play, which 2 alone combined are the best praises and the greatest achievement these days.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
No its not a sandbox game, it's still guides you through narratives from sector to sector. It's really a Fallout theme park themed MMO at this point in time, it can be turned in to a more sandbox game, the foundation is there, just not really used.
DB: Player driven economy is not when you can sell ATV and dune buggies on auction house, when all of its material is either bought from a vendor or gathered by yourself (and on the top of it, you need to finish the pretty long 4 mission chains from sector 1 to learn the schematics -- because they can't be bought anywhere else -- which supports the fact the game is mission driven). Every game out there including lotro, aoc which you surely wouldn't describe as player driven economies has certain items that are sold on auction house and that can only be crafted. That's surely not an argument.
Player driven economy is when the whole process of creation is dependant on material gathered or crafted by other players and you need to interact with them through either trade channel or auction hall. 99% of all mats in FE you can buy from vendors -- very cheaply, .. so cheaply, that the actual vendor prices are below the current auction hall prices (incredible isn't it?).
REALITY CHECK
1 - I didn't craft any of my ATV's without buying mats from the AH. Fail.
2 - ATV is the only recipe you need to do a quest for. Info skewed.
3 - Yes, Lotro has a player driven economy as well. Surprised? It does not mean, that everything is accessible ONLY from the AH, but nearly everyone buys potions, tokens, weapons, armor, some craft items, reputation tokens etc etc. I'm not sure you're clear on what "economy" means, but as far as looking at your very weird ideas on "sandbox", I can't say I'm surprised.
"Player driven economy is when the whole process of creation is dependant on material gathered or crafted by other players and you need to interact with them through either trade channel or auction hall. 99"
Precisely what I have been doing in Lotro and doing now in FE. Thanks for confirming it.
"99% of all mats in FE you can buy from vendors" - the question here is accessibility. You can (I did) sell mats in the AH for a much higher price than the vendor price, as the vendor selling it was very problematic to access from distant parts of the map. I am not sure how much time you spent observing the AH, but it seems not much at all. People DO sell and buy raw matsin the AH, many times at a higher price than the vendor price. By doing this, they can craft sitting in one town, maybe because they don't have the info about the cheap mat vendor, but most importantly and likely because of the complexity of the items. I could never manufacture a motorbike from vendor raw mats, as the variety and spread of given vendors does not make that possible- and not to mention, no vendor sells scrap glass in S1
Not only is FE economy player driven, but it is already showing signs of basic economical laws: effects of factors like availabilty on price. Very interesting to see how it will develop!
DB
Edit: I'm quite convinced, that there are already folks in the game who have discovered the gaps: like buying scrap wood for 4 chips apiece from the vendor on Embry, and sell them for 5/6/7 per piece. If you see a stack of 100 scrap wood for 6 blue chips, you might just buy it out. Easy, convenient, saves time!
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
This explains it a lot. You have the same useless definition for what player driven economy is or what is optional and what isnt. Based on your logic again, everything everywhere is optional, and everything everywhere is player driven economy. Again, that's a flawed attitude.
I precisely know what "economy" means. If it's player driven, then all prices are set by players in the game. It's that easy. In FE, 99% of all items are sold by vendors (yes including scrap glass in S1) Their price is set by developers. The economy is not player driven, but is already set.
REALITY CHECK
So once again let me clarify one thing.
EVERY MMO that has an AH, does have player-based economy. It is simple as that. If you can buy and sell between players, the prices will be driven be the same factors: supply - demand - availabilty (etc.). This, sooner or later prices will balance, and fluctuate based on the future trends in the game.
The question is: what percentage of ingame items are in this circulation?
In an average MMO it is usually consumables and some top gear. In FE, the percentage is certainly higher.
As per Thillian's utopia of a "100% pure player-made everything": sorry, it will never happen.
Why? Because there is just simply a need for infinite, easy to access source for items. (Vendors).
Imagine if there were no vendors.... Just to give an example, say, all the scrap steel that is used ingame would be only accessible by scavenging or manufactured from coal+scrap iron. I can see the situation, like this:
Thousands of people are yelling, screaming and bashing Icarus, how can they be that stupid to NOT put enough coal nodes /iron nodes/junk cars in the game, since there is absolutely no scrap steel on the market..... not only costs scrap steel 10 blue chips a piece, but everyone and their mother is node wrestling everywhere to fulfill the needs of all those who want to craft......
Hope you got the point?
For a freshly started game especially, the devs somehow need to guarantee, that everyone can start doing what they want. This is why there is access to all rawmats for all. Nodes are limited, vendors are not. They only need to make sure it is neither too cheap, nor too easy to access these sources, to avoid deflation. So, Icarus made some mats more expensive (31 chips for 1 single scrap steel is pricey, if you need 50 for just to research a buggy (let alone create it!!).
Also, they made vendor access randomized (a little), and scattered.
A very vivid example: you cannot buy scrap plastic in S1. Furthermore, only very few nodes yielded them.
Result: playerbase was whining, so they changed mob drop of hermit crabs and node drop of mutant chicken nests to yield plastic.
I hope you got the point now. What you are looking for will never be created, as it would just NOT work. Similar to true communism, actually
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
This explains it a lot. You have the same useless definition for what player driven economy is or what is optional and what isnt. Based on your logic again, everything everywhere is optional, and everything everywhere is player driven economy. Again, that's a flawed attitude.
I precisely know what "economy" means. If it's player driven, then all prices are set by players in the game. It's that easy. In FE, 99% of all items are sold by vendors (yes including scrap glass in S1) Their price is set by developers. The economy is not player driven, but is already set.
No dude, the situation is, that you have absolutely no clue about neither economy, nor MMO's: check my previous comment, you might get some understanding. And no, you cannot buy scrap glass in S1.
And yes, all the prices in game are determined by players. This is what AH does. Check again
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
There really isn't a question as to whether FE is a sandbox or not. It is not a sandbox at all in any way.
* Linear progression
* Lack of player driven content
* The economy is vendor-based
* The skill system is limited and does not actually encourage very unique builds. In other words, there is generally the BEST way to do things.
If someone were to call this game a hybrid, they would also have to call every other MMO on the market a hybrid. Which would make the word "Hybrid" useless to use in the first place. This is a theme park.