WoW changed everything about the MMO industry by making it mainstream and bringing in a lot of people who play different genres of games, including SP games. All of that changed the dynamics of the market for MMOs, both on the supply side and the demand side.
On the supply side, we had publishers and developers getting currency signs in their eyes looking at how much cash WoW was generating for Blizzard/Activision. And so we had follow-on games that were, to some degree, designed to emulate WoW or to cannibalize some of its playerbase -- LOTRO, AOC, WAR all fall into this category. Yet, none of these reached the level of success it would have liked, due to the inherent difficulty at out-WoWing WoW at its own game, together with the problem of competing with a tightly polished and now lavishly financed project like WoW with a new game -- very hard to do. But innovating is hard to justify as well, due to the demand side of the equation.
On that demand side, we have players who basically demand everything WoW has but wrapped in a new universe. They want their own ruleset servers (regardless of the lore or game design). They want PvP, but only on their own terms, and according to every flavor at their option -- open world, small group instanced, large group instanced, etc. And they want a full-blown PvE game with raid instances on a parallel track. And they want a world that is as large as a game that has been released for five years and so on. Make no mistake, AOC and WAR both had quite a few inexcusable flaws, but most of the venom directed their way was because this or that was unlike WoW, or WoW did this or that better and so on. WoW is the yardstick to such an extreme degree now that it penalizes developers who either (1) try something different (good luck getting a publisher for that) or (2) can't provide a game fresh out of the box that is as polished as WoW's five-year old game.
The fact that most of the playerbase also plays SP games exacerbates the problem. The SP games get people accustomed to very good gameplay and graphics -- areas where they are not inclined to cut new MMOs any slack. So developers of MMOs spend a lot of time on eye-candy and can run out of time to actually produce finished content (as happened with Funcom and AOC), or they skimp a bit on graphics and get hazed for doing so, as happened to some extent with WAR.
The harsh reality today is that the old school MMO gamer (i.e., people who played MMOs to any significant degree before November 2004) is way, way outnumbered by the new school hybrid "mainstream" gamer who dabbles in various genres of game, and won't support an MMO that he compares unfavorably for whatever reason to WoW. In the end, there are niche games for old school players, like EVE (a quite successful niche game, but still a niche game), Darkfall and so on. There is still a market for these, but it's small and the playerbase needs to be patient because these games won't be well-capitalized, will take longer to develop as a result, and will have some systems that are more rudimentary, at least out of the box. As for the rest of the industry, we can probably expect devlopers and publishers to keep throwing WoW-like games against the wall again and again and again in the hopes of one of them sticking and being the next MMO home run.
Nothing has changed except for your misconceptions of what gaming is.
UO is still around, go play it.
DF is around and offers the community you speak of.
EVE is around and offers the community you speak of.
Your views are so narrow minded. I've been heavily playing mmos for two decades now. To even think for a second that the genre has gone in reverse is moronic.
People are asking for instant gratification with mini-games and arenas...
So?
People don't want to spend months and months being able to compete with you...
So?
These are issues that have been around since the dawn of gaming.
I am so sick and tired of listening to "old gamers" that think they know the answer to everything. Talking about just how good the old days were. The old days were good because there wasn't shit to do except meet new people and create your own events. YOU CAN DO THAT NOW! Really... it's easy. Go find someone, talk with them, and then do something. It's an amazing idea isn't it?
Stop complaining that these game developers haven't a clue. It's the other way around!
You old timers sound exactly like the old timers down at the cafe who sit around read newspapers and chat about politics. They say stuff like: 'kid's these days have it too easy.' 'if they live back in our time most of them would've never made it' and they talk about how wonderful things were back in their day. They forget about polio, facism and Jim Crow. It's nostalgia pure and simple.
Jim Crow? Jim Beam
I think the old timers are right though. If someone like you went back and played EQ back in the day, you would realize it.
Most people here are probably new to the genre, so they don't really understand all of the complaints directed toward newer MMORPGs. They don't realize that the genre used to be challenging, the PvP used to be fun, and MMORPGs used to be real MMORPGs, with worlds and not cheap lobbies and instances all over the place.
MMORPGs these days are easy, too easy.. I'm hesitant to call something like WoW a game, with all of the hand outs. I mean, all of the free hand outs, it's not very interactive to show up to a zone and get the best loot in the game without having to put forth any effort.
And that polio thing.. older MMORPGs were true MMORPGs. The newer ones really aren't MMORPGs. There is no world, no community, there is nothing massive about instancing everything.
Back when I played MMORPGs, I knew everyone on the server. Now you are lucky to know 1 or 2 people by the time you hit 80. Instances with random players, and games where you can solo to 80... You could level to 80 in WoW without anyone else, it's a single player game.
Gin, you are my favorite person right now. the last phrase sums up the new MMOGs that are comming out, in fact dare i call them OSPG (online single player games)
though you probably didnt know EVERYONE, but you knew the MAIN MAJORITY which was roughly 75% :P sry...
i still want games that to get from point A to point B you had to prepare it like an adventure, not some click to summon instant travel BS
"I still want games that to get from point A to point B you had to prepare it like an adventure, not some click to summon instant travel BS"
What game ever had that?
Sometimes i think people are remembering stuff that never existed.. That game you remember hasn't been made yet, we are still waiting for it.
Everquest was like that untils Planes of Power. There was no such thing as instant-travel. The closest thing would be to find a druid or wizard, but the fact is that you had to interact w/ other players to get somewhere. Getting ports in early EQ wasn't easy either, so most people had to travel.
When I wanted to run from Highkeep to Thurgadin, it took me 1-2 hours at least. It wasn't an easy thing going from one part of the World to the other.
Worlds just aren't very massive anymore though, you can get to any WoW location in 5-10 minutes. Sure if you travel on foot it may take long, but nowadays it's all portals and makes the game feel less like an MMO. You don't feel like WoW is much of a world
Cause that's what someone that's been working all day wants to do. Travel for 1-2 hours to meet up with his buddies and then play for 30 minutes and go to sleep.
You people have your f'ing heads so far up your asses. You're not the only gamers!
Haha Gink, so you stop pretending to be a skilled player as no one buys the bullshit. Now you pretend to talk on behalf of "old timers" as if ... and oh you are only 23 and you are still drinking milk when I got my PhD. You are old timer in your dreams? The new generation displaces the old, that is progression. Trying to look back as if the past is better is just illusion. Trying to preach to us when you are only 23, is just bullshit. I am possibly older than your parents.
Always bringing up the RL
I don't really care what you think, but I will give you some history:
EQ was my first MMO, I started on the most hardcore and most difficult server, Sullon Zek (PvP server, no ruleset)
Now most of you people from EQ may not know what went on with that server, but it was basically a server with lots of griefing and PVP going on. You would try to level and a group of 60s would come take over your zone, and you would have to either get out of the zone or get killed. Whenever people raided on my server, there were teams training each other all the time. Everyone wanted to raid Ssra Temple, Vex Thal, Planes of Power, etc. But only one guild could, so whenever people raided, 90% of the time other guilds would show up and either PK you or pull trains over your raid. After that, you basically had no chance of recovering that day, and other guilds would steal the NPC. It was like that every day, lots of griefing, corpse camping, training, PVP going on.
I may be young, but I know what a real MMO is with real PVP, because Sullon Zek was an all-out warzone. There wasn't a day where you could avoid PVP.
I was one of the most famous PVPers on Sullon Zek. I want a game with real PVP like that, again.
Cause that's what someone that's been working all day wants to do. Travel for 1-2 hours to meet up with his buddies and then play for 30 minutes and go to sleep.
You people have your f'ing heads so far up your asses. You're not the only gamers!
Once you travel somewhere, you stay. Why do you want to avoid traveling? That is one of the best parts of an MMORPG, to travel and explore zones.
The facts are that those portals in these games just ruin MMORPGs. They have no place. They let you avoid travel. You can warp to any zone instantly, you'll play the game and you won't even know zones existed, because you can pick and choose what zones you want to see. There wasn't one zone in EQ that I didn't see. In WoW I could level to 80 and only have seen maybe 5-10 different zones, because I just went to good grind spots.
Real MMORPGs force you to travel and learn the world. I'm not gonna play a game where you don't have a real world that can be navigated like you needed to in older MMORPGs.
Cause that's what someone that's been working all day wants to do. Travel for 1-2 hours to meet up with his buddies and then play for 30 minutes and go to sleep.
You people have your f'ing heads so far up your asses. You're not the only gamers!
Once you travel somewhere, you stay. Why do you want to avoid traveling? That is one of the best parts of an MMORPG, to travel and explore zones.
The facts are that those portals in these games just ruin MMORPGs. They have no place. They let you avoid travel. You can warp to any zone instantly, you'll play the game and you won't even know zones existed, because you can pick and choose what zones you want to see. There wasn't one zone in EQ that I didn't see. In WoW I could level to 80 and only have seen maybe 5-10 different zones, because I just went to good grind spots.
Real MMORPGs force you to travel and learn the world. I'm not gonna play a game where you don't have a real world that can be navigated like you needed to in older MMORPGs.
/cry
/wrists
*btw Gink, they closed another one of your whinecore threads... ftw!
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
L2 had instant teleport gatekeepers, but it still had a fully open world, the raids/PvP battles were pretty much massive, and it had one of the most harshest, if not the harshest death penalty(gear was several times "harder" to get than in WoW, yet it still had an exp loss and item drop which caused thousands of ragequits at high levels).
On the OP: very true. WoW changed everything about the MMO industry by making it mainstream and bringing in a lot of people who play different genres of games, including SP games. All of that changed the dynamics of the market for MMOs, both on the supply side and the demand side. On the supply side, we had publishers and developers getting currency signs in their eyes looking at how much cash WoW was generating for Blizzard/Activision. And so we had follow-on games that were, to some degree, designed to emulate WoW or to cannibalize some of its playerbase -- LOTRO, AOC, WAR all fall into this category. Yet, none of these reached the level of success it would have liked, due to the inherent difficulty at out-WoWing WoW at its own game, together with the problem of competing with a tightly polished and now lavishly financed project like WoW with a new game -- very hard to do. But innovating is hard to justify as well, due to the demand side of the equation. On that demand side, we have players who basically demand everything WoW has but wrapped in a new universe. They want their own ruleset servers (regardless of the lore or game design). They want PvP, but only on their own terms, and according to every flavor at their option -- open world, small group instanced, large group instanced, etc. And they want a full-blown PvE game with raid instances on a parallel track. And they want a world that is as large as a game that has been released for five years and so on. Make no mistake, AOC and WAR both had quite a few inexcusable flaws, but most of the venom directed their way was because this or that was unlike WoW, or WoW did this or that better and so on. WoW is the yardstick to such an extreme degree now that it penalizes developers who either (1) try something different (good luck getting a publisher for that) or (2) can't provide a game fresh out of the box that is as polished as WoW's five-year old game. The fact that most of the playerbase also plays SP games exacerbates the problem. The SP games get people accustomed to very good gameplay and graphics -- areas where they are not inclined to cut new MMOs any slack. So developers of MMOs spend a lot of time on eye-candy and can run out of time to actually produce finished content (as happened with Funcom and AOC), or they skimp a bit on graphics and get hazed for doing so, as happened to some extent with WAR. The harsh reality today is that the old school MMO gamer (i.e., people who played MMOs to any significant degree before November 2004) is way, way outnumbered by the new school hybrid "mainstream" gamer who dabbles in various genres of game, and won't support an MMO that he compares unfavorably for whatever reason to WoW. In the end, there are niche games for old school players, like EVE (a quite successful niche game, but still a niche game), Darkfall and so on. There is still a market for these, but it's small and the playerbase needs to be patient because these games won't be well-capitalized, will take longer to develop as a result, and will have some systems that are more rudimentary, at least out of the box. As for the rest of the industry, we can probably expect devlopers and publishers to keep throwing WoW-like games against the wall again and again and again in the hopes of one of them sticking and being the next MMO home run.
You talk like EVE Online has a small market share. Excluding WoW, you'll see it has a big market share outperforming EQ2, LOTRO, etc
Now if you meant that it was designed to appeal to a small audience then I must say- you've never played EVE Online. They struck a perfect balance between tough hardcore penalties and casual gameplay.
And yes we can expect many more WoW clones because publishers love to stick to established models. Always look to small independent companies for innovation- never the big guys. I wish I were wrong but unfortunately the 'suits' treat game development like they are playing the stock market. Well actually, they are
Once you travel somewhere, you stay. Why do you want to avoid traveling? That is one of the best parts of an MMORPG, to travel and explore zones.
The facts are that those portals in these games just ruin MMORPGs. They have no place. They let you avoid travel. You can warp to any zone instantly, you'll play the game and you won't even know zones existed, because you can pick and choose what zones you want to see. There wasn't one zone in EQ that I didn't see. In WoW I could level to 80 and only have seen maybe 5-10 different zones, because I just went to good grind spots. Real MMORPGs force you to travel and learn the world. I'm not gonna play a game where you don't have a real world that can be navigated like you needed to in older MMORPGs.
Yes, because every game mechanic must be associated with WoW in some way or it's not valid!
Are you serious?
Let me rephrase...
Use another example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any other example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're not going to play a game where travel is not a chore? Good, then don't play it.
Does that make it less of a game than your hardcore square wheeled travel game? Maybe in your retarded perspective!
Obviously travel makes the MMO. Hell, If I can travel half way across the world instantly it must not be an MMO. What was I thinking buying this massively single player game!
Nothing has changed except for your misconceptions of what gaming is. UO is still around, go play it. DF is around and offers the community you speak of. EVE is around and offers the community you speak of.
Your views are so narrow minded. I've been heavily playing mmos for two decades now. To even think for a second that the genre has gone in reverse is moronic. People are asking for instant gratification with mini-games and arenas... So? People don't want to spend months and months being able to compete with you... So?
These are issues that have been around since the dawn of gaming. I am so sick and tired of listening to "old gamers" that think they know the answer to everything. Talking about just how good the old days were. The old days were good because there wasn't shit to do except meet new people and create your own events. YOU CAN DO THAT NOW! Really... it's easy. Go find someone, talk with them, and then do something. It's an amazing idea isn't it? Stop complaining that these game developers haven't a clue. It's the other way around!
You and the OP have valid points.
But he is right and most can agree that MMOs have sort of de-evolved since UO (with rare exception to EVE, etc).
Lets look at UO feature-wise:
* Had player collision
* Players could directly impact the world itself and change it (build cities and buildings)
* You could even run a shop and have merchants
* PVP was meaningful and had a conclusion due to loss of resources
* Players could dye their clothes
* Players could pursue their desired profession without 'rails'. For instance, a crafter could be a pure crafter
Now look at World of Warcraft. It lacks all that. It's a regression from what players had at the very beginning. Granted, its successful as hell. But that doesn't change the fact that 'some of us' believe that current MMOs are a regression
You don't even have something as simple as player collision in most MMOs. WAR has it true- which proves the point to an extent that MMOs regressed to such a simplistic state they are slowly working way they back up out of the gutter
Once you travel somewhere, you stay. Why do you want to avoid traveling? That is one of the best parts of an MMORPG, to travel and explore zones.
The facts are that those portals in these games just ruin MMORPGs. They have no place. They let you avoid travel. You can warp to any zone instantly, you'll play the game and you won't even know zones existed, because you can pick and choose what zones you want to see. There wasn't one zone in EQ that I didn't see. In WoW I could level to 80 and only have seen maybe 5-10 different zones, because I just went to good grind spots. Real MMORPGs force you to travel and learn the world. I'm not gonna play a game where you don't have a real world that can be navigated like you needed to in older MMORPGs.
Yes, because every game mechanic must be associated with WoW in some way or it's not valid!
Are you serious?
Let me rephrase...
Use another example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any other example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're not going to play a game where travel is not a chore? Good, then don't play it.
Does that make it less of a game than your hardcore square wheeled travel game? Maybe in your retarded perspective!
Obviously travel makes the MMO. Hell, If I can travel half way across the world instantly it must not be an MMO. What was I thinking buying this massively single player game!
Once you introduce instant-warp to locations, then the game feels more like a lobby with a bunch of cheap instances floating around
Who said travel is a chore? Only bad players don't want to figure out how to get from one zone to the other. It's hard to memorize what a zone looks like, so people want to just click -> Warp to Zone X instead. Players are lazy, has nothing to do with anything else.
Travel does make the MMO, you could go play Diablo 2 if you want to instant-warp to locations
Now if you meant that it was designed to appeal to a small audience then I must say- you've never played EVE Online. They struck a perfect balance between tough hardcore penalties and casual gameplay.
Um.
I played EVE Online for about three years from 2004-2007 and experienced all aspects of the game, from empire carebear, to empire war, to faction war, to alliance politics and diplomacy in 0.0.
The game is a niche game. A very good niche game, but a niche game nonetheless. Why? Because most people don't like the fact that you are, most of the time (and will still be the case with AVs in the stations) a spaceship for all intents and purposes. I think EVE is an excellent game and I enjoyed my time in EVE and have been happy to see it grow over the years, but it's still a niche game.
EVE had a tiny sub base when I started in early 2004. The only way CCP was able to keep the game afloat was because the game actually did not cost that much to make as compared to a land-based game. Why? Because in essence the game is not graphically intensive or environment intensive. It simply required much less work to create, meaning less capital intensive. The design was appropriate for the kind of game they planned, but replicating that model (start off really, really small and then gradually grow over the course of 5-6 years) in the context of a land-based game with much higher development capital costs is going to be almost impossible financially. So that's good news for CCP but not so good news for folks who are making land-based MMOs.
Guild Wars never felt like a virtual world because you could just click where you want to go if you've been there before. But at least they forced you to make the journey once
I think really good pvp needs some form of Travel. Travel alone can be an excellent penalty. If some ganker comes to some land that my guild owns and he is ganking our miners/crafters, etc and I kill him. Well, if it takes him a whole hour to come back well there you go- Travel alone can make an excellent penalty
On the other hand it can feel like a tough timesink for people I understand.
I really liked how in LinkRealms a master wizard could make a portal and travel to places they've 'bookmarked'.
So I'm not sure where I stand on Travel. But I do see Ginkeq reasoning that Travel makes a virtual world feel more real. I am open to alternatives though. I liked how in EVE Online I could use my jump clone once a day to travel to my other clones....
I do feel like Guild wars made things way too easy. But I actually thought WoW did this one kinda ok
Nothing has changed except for your misconceptions of what gaming is. UO is still around, go play it. DF is around and offers the community you speak of. EVE is around and offers the community you speak of.
Your views are so narrow minded. I've been heavily playing mmos for two decades now. To even think for a second that the genre has gone in reverse is moronic. People are asking for instant gratification with mini-games and arenas... So? People don't want to spend months and months being able to compete with you... So?
These are issues that have been around since the dawn of gaming. I am so sick and tired of listening to "old gamers" that think they know the answer to everything. Talking about just how good the old days were. The old days were good because there wasn't shit to do except meet new people and create your own events. YOU CAN DO THAT NOW! Really... it's easy. Go find someone, talk with them, and then do something. It's an amazing idea isn't it? Stop complaining that these game developers haven't a clue. It's the other way around!
You and the OP have valid points.
But he is right and most can agree that MMOs have sort of de-evolved since UO (with rare exception to EVE, etc).
Lets look at UO feature-wise:
* Had player collision
2D Isometirc engine. 3D MMOs with collision never feel right and when 100s get together, forget about it.
* Players could directly impact the world itself and change it (build cities and buildings)
2D Isometric engine, SIMPLISTIC
* You could even run a shop and have merchants
The desire for that is so low. MOST prefer an auction house.
* PVP was meaningful and had a conclusion due to loss of resources
Desire for meaingful PvP that allows one player to take something away from another is very low in demand.
* Players could dye their clothes
The graphics sucked, who cares? Hard to say that UO had much artistry, due to the limits of the engine. WOW has a lot of non-combat related clothing by the way.
* Players could pursue their desired profession without 'rails'. For instance, a crafter could be a pure crafter
Besides level, you can be JUST a crafter in WOW if you choose.
Now look at World of Warcraft. It lacks all that. It's a regression from what players had at the very beginning. Granted, its successful as hell. But that doesn't change the fact that 'some of us' believe that current MMOs are a regression
You don't even have something as simple as player collision in most MMOs. WAR has it true- which proves the point to an extent that MMOs regressed to such a simplistic state they are slowly working way they back up out of the gutter
But WOW's world is 100X more interesting than UOs. WOW's combat engine puts UO's to shame. WOW's dungeons put UO's to shame. WOW's bosses put UO's to shame. UO's quests were few and far between. UO had exploits galore that were big problems compared to WOW's. You could REALLY ruin people's playtime which is a big negative. There was no real balance in combat either. FOTM uber templates were the norm if you actually wanted to compete with people. UO was a social MMO. It wasn't a fun MMO. Its certainly not fun at all by todays standards. WOW does what it does very well. UO did what it did well. Different MMOs for different folks. I saw nothing redeeming about UO back in 1998 except a boring looking game with point&click movement, lousy combat, and a monthly fee to basically chat. I had no desire to play a character and live in a videogame. I could decorate my apt at the time and make it look good. Girls actually appreciated that. Couldn't show my girlfriend my cool shack in UO, could I? Buh bye, dying breed. Your interests don't matter to developers anymore because you're too insignificant in their eyes.
Originally posted by PatchDay You and the OP have valid points.
But he is right and most can agree that MMOs have sort of de-evolved since UO (with rare exception to EVE, etc).
Lets look at UO feature-wise: * Had player collision * Players could directly impact the world itself and change it (build cities and buildings) * You could even run a shop and have merchants * PVP was meaningful and had a conclusion due to loss of resources * Players could dye their clothes * Players could pursue their desired profession without 'rails'. For instance, a crafter could be a pure crafter
Now look at World of Warcraft. It lacks all that. It's a regression from what players had at the very beginning. Granted, its successful as hell. But that doesn't change the fact that 'some of us' believe that current MMOs are a regression You don't even have something as simple as player collision in most MMOs. WAR has it true- which proves the point to an extent that MMOs regressed to such a simplistic state they are slowly working way they back up out of the gutter
Why is WoW the basis of everything? Because it's popular? It's like comparing homosexuality to heterosexuality... both popular and both on completely different spectrums. WoW turned mmos mainstream. What existed before it? How many mmo players existed before it? Where would we be today if it didn't exist? Have any of you actually sat down and thought about this?
I want to know what everyone's daily activities were in these "old school" games that was so much more entertaining than what is offered today. Seriously, what did you do during the day in-game that you can't do in games of today?
What impacts on the game world were there in the games of old that aren't in the new generation?
Player collision is in a lot of mmos. What player collision are you talking about in old mmos? UO collision? 2d collision? really?
Darkfall has merchants, SWG has merchants (this is probably the one game I will say was destroyed by mainstream titles like WoW)
PvP is a deciding factor on if I purchase a game or not. If it's not what you expected then you didn't read enough!
Dying clothing? This is a social aspect and means absolutely nothing in terms of gameplay. Granted, it makes some people happy. That doesn't make it necessity or something I want developers working on.
Rails? Once again... this all boils down to the type of game you want to play. Darkfall has no rails. Eve has no rails. WoW is a rail.
I don't think it boils down to anything. There are enough flavors of mmo to appeal to anyone. Just because an mmo isn't mainstream doesn't mean you shouldn't play it. I think that's where most of you fall. You want the mainstream titles to cater to you. It's not going to happen. Find your niche and run with it, but don't tell everyone else that the genre is full of shit. It just makes you look misinformed.
Btw in regards to Travel I will have to just go with the 'Flock collision rule'. I think it's just best that casual/mainstream can keep getting their instant gratification games. Nothing wrong with that
But on other hand, sandbox / virtual world lovers should also continue to get their own games.
I personally have no desire to play a game with the people that adore Arenas. I wouldn't want them making EVE Online suck, etc.
So no one has to agree on such things cause there is obviously no right answer
Desire for meaingful PvP that allows one player to take something away from another is very low in demand.
Did you take a poll, since you somehow know what the demand is for?
If you look at new MMORPGs they realize that WoW PVP sucks. That is why the new ones are trying to get the PVP audience, they just dont know how yet. WAR, AION, etc. were all supposed to be PVP games. They realize that WOW PVP sucks and that they can easily get that audience if they had a good PVP system in their game.
I think there is a desire for a game with real PVP, but all we've been getting is WoW clones so these games fail
Desire for meaingful PvP that allows one player to take something away from another is very low in demand. * Players could dye their clothes
Did you take a poll, since you somehow know what the demand is for?
If you look at new MMORPGs they realize that WoW PVP sucks. That is why the new ones are trying to get the PVP audience, they just dont know how yet. WAR, AION, etc. were all supposed to be PVP games. They realize that WOW PVP sucks and that they can easily get that audience if they had a good PVP system in their game.
I think there is a desire for a game with real PVP, but all we've been getting is WoW clones so these games fail
Compare MMOs that allow player looting and compare those that don't. I don't need a poll. I have statistics and sales numbers=) Better than any poll.
Desire for meaingful PvP that allows one player to take something away from another is very low in demand. * Players could dye their clothes
Did you take a poll, since you somehow know what the demand is for?
If you look at new MMORPGs they realize that WoW PVP sucks. That is why the new ones are trying to get the PVP audience, they just dont know how yet. WAR, AION, etc. were all supposed to be PVP games. They realize that WOW PVP sucks and that they can easily get that audience if they had a good PVP system in their game.
I think there is a desire for a game with real PVP, but all we've been getting is WoW clones so these games fail
Compare MMOs that allow player looting and compare those that don't. I don't need a poll. I have statistics and sales numbers=) Better than any poll.
What are you two arguing about?
If there is pvp in a game, you are taking something away from someone. It doesn't have to be an actual item. If you kill someone, you took TIME away from them. Both points are invalid.
Originally posted by PatchDay You and the OP have valid points.
But he is right and most can agree that MMOs have sort of de-evolved since UO (with rare exception to EVE, etc).
Lets look at UO feature-wise: * Had player collision * Players could directly impact the world itself and change it (build cities and buildings) * You could even run a shop and have merchants * PVP was meaningful and had a conclusion due to loss of resources * Players could dye their clothes * Players could pursue their desired profession without 'rails'. For instance, a crafter could be a pure crafter
Now look at World of Warcraft. It lacks all that. It's a regression from what players had at the very beginning. Granted, its successful as hell. But that doesn't change the fact that 'some of us' believe that current MMOs are a regression You don't even have something as simple as player collision in most MMOs. WAR has it true- which proves the point to an extent that MMOs regressed to such a simplistic state they are slowly working way they back up out of the gutter
Why is WoW the basis of everything? Because it's popular?
Yes
It's like comparing homosexuality to heterosexuality... both popular and both on completely different spectrums. WoW turned mmos mainstream. What existed before it? How many mmo players existed before it? Where would we be today if it didn't exist? Have any of you actually sat down and thought about this?
I want to know what everyone's daily activities were in these "old school" games that was so much more entertaining than what is offered today. Seriously, what did you do during the day in-game that you can't do in games of today?
What impacts on the game world were there in the games of old that aren't in the new generation?
How can one change the game world in WoW clones? In EVE Online you can build a space station.
Player collision is in a lot of mmos. What player collision are you talking about in old mmos? UO collision? 2d collision? really?
Can a Tank collide with a Boss in WoW? Names the MMOs that have true player-to-player and player-to-NPC collision. It's a small number
Darkfall has merchants, SWG has merchants (this is probably the one game I will say was destroyed by mainstream titles like WoW)
Yes of course. You misread my post, read again. I refer to WoW clones being a regression. Obviously SW@G PreCU was not a WoW clone right. Nor is Darkfall.
PvP is a deciding factor on if I purchase a game or not. If it's not what you expected then you didn't read enough!
Dying clothing? This is a social aspect and means absolutely nothing in terms of gameplay. Granted, it makes some people happy. That doesn't make it necessity or something I want developers working on.
So you are happy looking just like everyone else? Wearing matching guild uniforms is a cool feature too me. Wearing mismatched equipment is a negative too me.
Rails? Once again... this all boils down to the type of game you want to play. Darkfall has no rails. Eve has no rails. WoW is a rail.
You misread my post. Read again
I don't think it boils down to anything. There are enough flavors of mmo to appeal to anyone. Just because an mmo isn't mainstream doesn't mean you shouldn't play it. I think that's where most of you fall. You want the mainstream titles to cater to you. It's not going to happen. Find your niche and run with it, but don't tell everyone else that the genre is full of shit. It just makes you look misinformed (or you just didnt read my post at all)
Now if you meant that it was designed to appeal to a small audience then I must say- you've never played EVE Online. They struck a perfect balance between tough hardcore penalties and casual gameplay.
Um.
I played EVE Online for about three years from 2004-2007 and experienced all aspects of the game, from empire carebear, to empire war, to faction war, to alliance politics and diplomacy in 0.0.
The game is a niche game. A very good niche game, but a niche game nonetheless. Why? Because most people don't like the fact that you are, most of the time (and will still be the case with AVs in the stations) a spaceship for all intents and purposes. I think EVE is an excellent game and I enjoyed my time in EVE and have been happy to see it grow over the years, but it's still a niche game.
EVE had a tiny sub base when I started in early 2004. The only way CCP was able to keep the game afloat was because the game actually did not cost that much to make as compared to a land-based game. Why? Because in essence the game is not graphically intensive or environment intensive. It simply required much less work to create, meaning less capital intensive. The design was appropriate for the kind of game they planned, but replicating that model (start off really, really small and then gradually grow over the course of 5-6 years) in the context of a land-based game with much higher development capital costs is going to be almost impossible financially. So that's good news for CCP but not so good news for folks who are making land-based MMOs.
You seem to appear to think running a LAnd based game architecture is more expensive. This is incorrect. The development costs for a content driven game is more expensive yes. But once deployed, the Server Architecture is indifferent to whether it's space or Land.
When the server is running a space sim, the only major difference is that it can run less collision routines on the server. This is mostly due to the fact most of the time the player is not colliding with anything
When the player is running around on ground then yes, you run more CPU server-side to ensure the player is not using hacks to walk through walls and such
Desire for meaingful PvP that allows one player to take something away from another is very low in demand.
Did you take a poll, since you somehow know what the demand is for?
If you look at new MMORPGs they realize that WoW PVP sucks. That is why the new ones are trying to get the PVP audience, they just dont know how yet. WAR, AION, etc. were all supposed to be PVP games. They realize that WOW PVP sucks and that they can easily get that audience if they had a good PVP system in their game.
I think there is a desire for a game with real PVP, but all we've been getting is WoW clones so these games fail
Now if you meant that it was designed to appeal to a small audience then I must say- you've never played EVE Online. They struck a perfect balance between tough hardcore penalties and casual gameplay.
Um.
I played EVE Online for about three years from 2004-2007 and experienced all aspects of the game, from empire carebear, to empire war, to faction war, to alliance politics and diplomacy in 0.0.
The game is a niche game. A very good niche game, but a niche game nonetheless. Why? Because most people don't like the fact that you are, most of the time (and will still be the case with AVs in the stations) a spaceship for all intents and purposes. I think EVE is an excellent game and I enjoyed my time in EVE and have been happy to see it grow over the years, but it's still a niche game.
EVE had a tiny sub base when I started in early 2004. The only way CCP was able to keep the game afloat was because the game actually did not cost that much to make as compared to a land-based game. Why? Because in essence the game is not graphically intensive or environment intensive. It simply required much less work to create, meaning less capital intensive. The design was appropriate for the kind of game they planned, but replicating that model (start off really, really small and then gradually grow over the course of 5-6 years) in the context of a land-based game with much higher development capital costs is going to be almost impossible financially. So that's good news for CCP but not so good news for folks who are making land-based MMOs.
You seem to appear to think running a LAnd based game architecture is more expensive. This is incorrect. The development costs for a content driven game is more expensive yes. But once deployed, the Server Architecture is indifferent to whether it's space or Land.
When the server is running a space sim, the only major difference is that it can run less collision routines on the server. This is mostly due to the fact most of the time the player is not colliding with anything
When the player is running around on ground then yes, you run more CPU server-side to ensure the player is not using hacks to walk through walls and such
No, not running it, Patch, developing it.
All CCP needed to do was plop a few objects in systems, most of which are based on a small handful of designs. The "world" is mostly a static backdrop -- again several versions of it, but that's that. There is no "world" that they needed to develop. That's a huge cost that EVE simply doesn't have in nearly the same degree as land-based MMOs. It's much more expensive developing and building out the content in a game like EQ2 or LOTRO than it was for EVE. it's true that they added things later in terms of content over the course of time. But still, EVE is content-light compared to a land-based MMO. That drives the development cost down -- the sunk capital cost that you and your investors/financers/publishers are incurring prior to launch and looking to recoup afterwards. Normally the capital recovery model is not based on the idea that you start small and grow over time and eventually recover your capital over the course of 5-6 years, simply because that kind of growth trajectory is rather exceptional for an MMORPG. CCP was fortunate in that its sunk development costs were lower than would have been the case had it been a land-based game. It was also fortunate in that the main investor was the Bank of Iceland, which was patient with its investment. In a more "strictly commercial" environment, and with higher sunk development costs that a less patient investor was looking to either recover or write off within a certain period of time, the game would not have survived, most likely. I think it's good that it DID survive, mind you, but it's no model for a game with the kinds of high development costs that a land-based game has.
Comments
On the OP: very true.
WoW changed everything about the MMO industry by making it mainstream and bringing in a lot of people who play different genres of games, including SP games. All of that changed the dynamics of the market for MMOs, both on the supply side and the demand side.
On the supply side, we had publishers and developers getting currency signs in their eyes looking at how much cash WoW was generating for Blizzard/Activision. And so we had follow-on games that were, to some degree, designed to emulate WoW or to cannibalize some of its playerbase -- LOTRO, AOC, WAR all fall into this category. Yet, none of these reached the level of success it would have liked, due to the inherent difficulty at out-WoWing WoW at its own game, together with the problem of competing with a tightly polished and now lavishly financed project like WoW with a new game -- very hard to do. But innovating is hard to justify as well, due to the demand side of the equation.
On that demand side, we have players who basically demand everything WoW has but wrapped in a new universe. They want their own ruleset servers (regardless of the lore or game design). They want PvP, but only on their own terms, and according to every flavor at their option -- open world, small group instanced, large group instanced, etc. And they want a full-blown PvE game with raid instances on a parallel track. And they want a world that is as large as a game that has been released for five years and so on. Make no mistake, AOC and WAR both had quite a few inexcusable flaws, but most of the venom directed their way was because this or that was unlike WoW, or WoW did this or that better and so on. WoW is the yardstick to such an extreme degree now that it penalizes developers who either (1) try something different (good luck getting a publisher for that) or (2) can't provide a game fresh out of the box that is as polished as WoW's five-year old game.
The fact that most of the playerbase also plays SP games exacerbates the problem. The SP games get people accustomed to very good gameplay and graphics -- areas where they are not inclined to cut new MMOs any slack. So developers of MMOs spend a lot of time on eye-candy and can run out of time to actually produce finished content (as happened with Funcom and AOC), or they skimp a bit on graphics and get hazed for doing so, as happened to some extent with WAR.
The harsh reality today is that the old school MMO gamer (i.e., people who played MMOs to any significant degree before November 2004) is way, way outnumbered by the new school hybrid "mainstream" gamer who dabbles in various genres of game, and won't support an MMO that he compares unfavorably for whatever reason to WoW. In the end, there are niche games for old school players, like EVE (a quite successful niche game, but still a niche game), Darkfall and so on. There is still a market for these, but it's small and the playerbase needs to be patient because these games won't be well-capitalized, will take longer to develop as a result, and will have some systems that are more rudimentary, at least out of the box. As for the rest of the industry, we can probably expect devlopers and publishers to keep throwing WoW-like games against the wall again and again and again in the hopes of one of them sticking and being the next MMO home run.
Nothing has changed except for your misconceptions of what gaming is.
UO is still around, go play it.
DF is around and offers the community you speak of.
EVE is around and offers the community you speak of.
Your views are so narrow minded. I've been heavily playing mmos for two decades now. To even think for a second that the genre has gone in reverse is moronic.
People are asking for instant gratification with mini-games and arenas...
So?
People don't want to spend months and months being able to compete with you...
So?
These are issues that have been around since the dawn of gaming.
I am so sick and tired of listening to "old gamers" that think they know the answer to everything. Talking about just how good the old days were. The old days were good because there wasn't shit to do except meet new people and create your own events. YOU CAN DO THAT NOW! Really... it's easy. Go find someone, talk with them, and then do something. It's an amazing idea isn't it?
Stop complaining that these game developers haven't a clue. It's the other way around!
Jim Crow? Jim Beam
I think the old timers are right though. If someone like you went back and played EQ back in the day, you would realize it.
Most people here are probably new to the genre, so they don't really understand all of the complaints directed toward newer MMORPGs. They don't realize that the genre used to be challenging, the PvP used to be fun, and MMORPGs used to be real MMORPGs, with worlds and not cheap lobbies and instances all over the place.
MMORPGs these days are easy, too easy.. I'm hesitant to call something like WoW a game, with all of the hand outs. I mean, all of the free hand outs, it's not very interactive to show up to a zone and get the best loot in the game without having to put forth any effort.
And that polio thing.. older MMORPGs were true MMORPGs. The newer ones really aren't MMORPGs. There is no world, no community, there is nothing massive about instancing everything.
Back when I played MMORPGs, I knew everyone on the server. Now you are lucky to know 1 or 2 people by the time you hit 80. Instances with random players, and games where you can solo to 80... You could level to 80 in WoW without anyone else, it's a single player game.
Gin, you are my favorite person right now. the last phrase sums up the new MMOGs that are comming out, in fact dare i call them OSPG (online single player games)
though you probably didnt know EVERYONE, but you knew the MAIN MAJORITY which was roughly 75% :P sry...
i still want games that to get from point A to point B you had to prepare it like an adventure, not some click to summon instant travel BS
"I still want games that to get from point A to point B you had to prepare it like an adventure, not some click to summon instant travel BS"
What game ever had that?
Sometimes i think people are remembering stuff that never existed.. That game you remember hasn't been made yet, we are still waiting for it.
Everquest was like that untils Planes of Power. There was no such thing as instant-travel. The closest thing would be to find a druid or wizard, but the fact is that you had to interact w/ other players to get somewhere. Getting ports in early EQ wasn't easy either, so most people had to travel.
When I wanted to run from Highkeep to Thurgadin, it took me 1-2 hours at least. It wasn't an easy thing going from one part of the World to the other.
Worlds just aren't very massive anymore though, you can get to any WoW location in 5-10 minutes. Sure if you travel on foot it may take long, but nowadays it's all portals and makes the game feel less like an MMO. You don't feel like WoW is much of a world
Cause that's what someone that's been working all day wants to do. Travel for 1-2 hours to meet up with his buddies and then play for 30 minutes and go to sleep.
You people have your f'ing heads so far up your asses. You're not the only gamers!
Always bringing up the RL
I don't really care what you think, but I will give you some history:
EQ was my first MMO, I started on the most hardcore and most difficult server, Sullon Zek (PvP server, no ruleset)
Now most of you people from EQ may not know what went on with that server, but it was basically a server with lots of griefing and PVP going on. You would try to level and a group of 60s would come take over your zone, and you would have to either get out of the zone or get killed. Whenever people raided on my server, there were teams training each other all the time. Everyone wanted to raid Ssra Temple, Vex Thal, Planes of Power, etc. But only one guild could, so whenever people raided, 90% of the time other guilds would show up and either PK you or pull trains over your raid. After that, you basically had no chance of recovering that day, and other guilds would steal the NPC. It was like that every day, lots of griefing, corpse camping, training, PVP going on.
I may be young, but I know what a real MMO is with real PVP, because Sullon Zek was an all-out warzone. There wasn't a day where you could avoid PVP.
I was one of the most famous PVPers on Sullon Zek. I want a game with real PVP like that, again.
Once you travel somewhere, you stay. Why do you want to avoid traveling? That is one of the best parts of an MMORPG, to travel and explore zones.
The facts are that those portals in these games just ruin MMORPGs. They have no place. They let you avoid travel. You can warp to any zone instantly, you'll play the game and you won't even know zones existed, because you can pick and choose what zones you want to see. There wasn't one zone in EQ that I didn't see. In WoW I could level to 80 and only have seen maybe 5-10 different zones, because I just went to good grind spots.
Real MMORPGs force you to travel and learn the world. I'm not gonna play a game where you don't have a real world that can be navigated like you needed to in older MMORPGs.
Once you travel somewhere, you stay. Why do you want to avoid traveling? That is one of the best parts of an MMORPG, to travel and explore zones.
The facts are that those portals in these games just ruin MMORPGs. They have no place. They let you avoid travel. You can warp to any zone instantly, you'll play the game and you won't even know zones existed, because you can pick and choose what zones you want to see. There wasn't one zone in EQ that I didn't see. In WoW I could level to 80 and only have seen maybe 5-10 different zones, because I just went to good grind spots.
Real MMORPGs force you to travel and learn the world. I'm not gonna play a game where you don't have a real world that can be navigated like you needed to in older MMORPGs.
/cry
/wrists
*btw Gink, they closed another one of your whinecore threads... ftw!
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
L2 had instant teleport gatekeepers, but it still had a fully open world, the raids/PvP battles were pretty much massive, and it had one of the most harshest, if not the harshest death penalty(gear was several times "harder" to get than in WoW, yet it still had an exp loss and item drop which caused thousands of ragequits at high levels).
One single feature does not ruin a MMO.
You talk like EVE Online has a small market share. Excluding WoW, you'll see it has a big market share outperforming EQ2, LOTRO, etc
Now if you meant that it was designed to appeal to a small audience then I must say- you've never played EVE Online. They struck a perfect balance between tough hardcore penalties and casual gameplay.
And yes we can expect many more WoW clones because publishers love to stick to established models. Always look to small independent companies for innovation- never the big guys. I wish I were wrong but unfortunately the 'suits' treat game development like they are playing the stock market. Well actually, they are
Yes, because every game mechanic must be associated with WoW in some way or it's not valid!
Are you serious?
Let me rephrase...
Use another example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any other example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're not going to play a game where travel is not a chore? Good, then don't play it.
Does that make it less of a game than your hardcore square wheeled travel game? Maybe in your retarded perspective!
Obviously travel makes the MMO. Hell, If I can travel half way across the world instantly it must not be an MMO. What was I thinking buying this massively single player game!
You and the OP have valid points.
But he is right and most can agree that MMOs have sort of de-evolved since UO (with rare exception to EVE, etc).
Lets look at UO feature-wise:
* Had player collision
* Players could directly impact the world itself and change it (build cities and buildings)
* You could even run a shop and have merchants
* PVP was meaningful and had a conclusion due to loss of resources
* Players could dye their clothes
* Players could pursue their desired profession without 'rails'. For instance, a crafter could be a pure crafter
Now look at World of Warcraft. It lacks all that. It's a regression from what players had at the very beginning. Granted, its successful as hell. But that doesn't change the fact that 'some of us' believe that current MMOs are a regression
You don't even have something as simple as player collision in most MMOs. WAR has it true- which proves the point to an extent that MMOs regressed to such a simplistic state they are slowly working way they back up out of the gutter
Yes, because every game mechanic must be associated with WoW in some way or it's not valid!
Are you serious?
Let me rephrase...
Use another example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any other example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're not going to play a game where travel is not a chore? Good, then don't play it.
Does that make it less of a game than your hardcore square wheeled travel game? Maybe in your retarded perspective!
Obviously travel makes the MMO. Hell, If I can travel half way across the world instantly it must not be an MMO. What was I thinking buying this massively single player game!
Once you introduce instant-warp to locations, then the game feels more like a lobby with a bunch of cheap instances floating around
Who said travel is a chore? Only bad players don't want to figure out how to get from one zone to the other. It's hard to memorize what a zone looks like, so people want to just click -> Warp to Zone X instead. Players are lazy, has nothing to do with anything else.
Travel does make the MMO, you could go play Diablo 2 if you want to instant-warp to locations
Um.
I played EVE Online for about three years from 2004-2007 and experienced all aspects of the game, from empire carebear, to empire war, to faction war, to alliance politics and diplomacy in 0.0.
The game is a niche game. A very good niche game, but a niche game nonetheless. Why? Because most people don't like the fact that you are, most of the time (and will still be the case with AVs in the stations) a spaceship for all intents and purposes. I think EVE is an excellent game and I enjoyed my time in EVE and have been happy to see it grow over the years, but it's still a niche game.
EVE had a tiny sub base when I started in early 2004. The only way CCP was able to keep the game afloat was because the game actually did not cost that much to make as compared to a land-based game. Why? Because in essence the game is not graphically intensive or environment intensive. It simply required much less work to create, meaning less capital intensive. The design was appropriate for the kind of game they planned, but replicating that model (start off really, really small and then gradually grow over the course of 5-6 years) in the context of a land-based game with much higher development capital costs is going to be almost impossible financially. So that's good news for CCP but not so good news for folks who are making land-based MMOs.
Travel is a tough subject to tackle.
Guild Wars never felt like a virtual world because you could just click where you want to go if you've been there before. But at least they forced you to make the journey once
I think really good pvp needs some form of Travel. Travel alone can be an excellent penalty. If some ganker comes to some land that my guild owns and he is ganking our miners/crafters, etc and I kill him. Well, if it takes him a whole hour to come back well there you go- Travel alone can make an excellent penalty
On the other hand it can feel like a tough timesink for people I understand.
I really liked how in LinkRealms a master wizard could make a portal and travel to places they've 'bookmarked'.
So I'm not sure where I stand on Travel. But I do see Ginkeq reasoning that Travel makes a virtual world feel more real. I am open to alternatives though. I liked how in EVE Online I could use my jump clone once a day to travel to my other clones....
I do feel like Guild wars made things way too easy. But I actually thought WoW did this one kinda ok
You and the OP have valid points.
But he is right and most can agree that MMOs have sort of de-evolved since UO (with rare exception to EVE, etc).
Lets look at UO feature-wise:
* Had player collision
2D Isometirc engine. 3D MMOs with collision never feel right and when 100s get together, forget about it.
* Players could directly impact the world itself and change it (build cities and buildings)
2D Isometric engine, SIMPLISTIC
* You could even run a shop and have merchants
The desire for that is so low. MOST prefer an auction house.
* PVP was meaningful and had a conclusion due to loss of resources
Desire for meaingful PvP that allows one player to take something away from another is very low in demand.
* Players could dye their clothes
The graphics sucked, who cares? Hard to say that UO had much artistry, due to the limits of the engine. WOW has a lot of non-combat related clothing by the way.
* Players could pursue their desired profession without 'rails'. For instance, a crafter could be a pure crafter
Besides level, you can be JUST a crafter in WOW if you choose.
Now look at World of Warcraft. It lacks all that. It's a regression from what players had at the very beginning. Granted, its successful as hell. But that doesn't change the fact that 'some of us' believe that current MMOs are a regression
You don't even have something as simple as player collision in most MMOs. WAR has it true- which proves the point to an extent that MMOs regressed to such a simplistic state they are slowly working way they back up out of the gutter
But WOW's world is 100X more interesting than UOs. WOW's combat engine puts UO's to shame. WOW's dungeons put UO's to shame. WOW's bosses put UO's to shame. UO's quests were few and far between. UO had exploits galore that were big problems compared to WOW's. You could REALLY ruin people's playtime which is a big negative. There was no real balance in combat either. FOTM uber templates were the norm if you actually wanted to compete with people. UO was a social MMO. It wasn't a fun MMO. Its certainly not fun at all by todays standards. WOW does what it does very well. UO did what it did well. Different MMOs for different folks. I saw nothing redeeming about UO back in 1998 except a boring looking game with point&click movement, lousy combat, and a monthly fee to basically chat. I had no desire to play a character and live in a videogame. I could decorate my apt at the time and make it look good. Girls actually appreciated that. Couldn't show my girlfriend my cool shack in UO, could I? Buh bye, dying breed. Your interests don't matter to developers anymore because you're too insignificant in their eyes.
Why is WoW the basis of everything? Because it's popular? It's like comparing homosexuality to heterosexuality... both popular and both on completely different spectrums. WoW turned mmos mainstream. What existed before it? How many mmo players existed before it? Where would we be today if it didn't exist? Have any of you actually sat down and thought about this?
I want to know what everyone's daily activities were in these "old school" games that was so much more entertaining than what is offered today. Seriously, what did you do during the day in-game that you can't do in games of today?
What impacts on the game world were there in the games of old that aren't in the new generation?
Player collision is in a lot of mmos. What player collision are you talking about in old mmos? UO collision? 2d collision? really?
Darkfall has merchants, SWG has merchants (this is probably the one game I will say was destroyed by mainstream titles like WoW)
PvP is a deciding factor on if I purchase a game or not. If it's not what you expected then you didn't read enough!
Dying clothing? This is a social aspect and means absolutely nothing in terms of gameplay. Granted, it makes some people happy. That doesn't make it necessity or something I want developers working on.
Rails? Once again... this all boils down to the type of game you want to play. Darkfall has no rails. Eve has no rails. WoW is a rail.
I don't think it boils down to anything. There are enough flavors of mmo to appeal to anyone. Just because an mmo isn't mainstream doesn't mean you shouldn't play it. I think that's where most of you fall. You want the mainstream titles to cater to you. It's not going to happen. Find your niche and run with it, but don't tell everyone else that the genre is full of shit. It just makes you look misinformed.
Btw in regards to Travel I will have to just go with the 'Flock collision rule'. I think it's just best that casual/mainstream can keep getting their instant gratification games. Nothing wrong with that
But on other hand, sandbox / virtual world lovers should also continue to get their own games.
I personally have no desire to play a game with the people that adore Arenas. I wouldn't want them making EVE Online suck, etc.
So no one has to agree on such things cause there is obviously no right answer
Did you take a poll, since you somehow know what the demand is for?
If you look at new MMORPGs they realize that WoW PVP sucks. That is why the new ones are trying to get the PVP audience, they just dont know how yet. WAR, AION, etc. were all supposed to be PVP games. They realize that WOW PVP sucks and that they can easily get that audience if they had a good PVP system in their game.
I think there is a desire for a game with real PVP, but all we've been getting is WoW clones so these games fail
Did you take a poll, since you somehow know what the demand is for?
If you look at new MMORPGs they realize that WoW PVP sucks. That is why the new ones are trying to get the PVP audience, they just dont know how yet. WAR, AION, etc. were all supposed to be PVP games. They realize that WOW PVP sucks and that they can easily get that audience if they had a good PVP system in their game.
I think there is a desire for a game with real PVP, but all we've been getting is WoW clones so these games fail
Compare MMOs that allow player looting and compare those that don't. I don't need a poll. I have statistics and sales numbers=) Better than any poll.
Did you take a poll, since you somehow know what the demand is for?
If you look at new MMORPGs they realize that WoW PVP sucks. That is why the new ones are trying to get the PVP audience, they just dont know how yet. WAR, AION, etc. were all supposed to be PVP games. They realize that WOW PVP sucks and that they can easily get that audience if they had a good PVP system in their game.
I think there is a desire for a game with real PVP, but all we've been getting is WoW clones so these games fail
Compare MMOs that allow player looting and compare those that don't. I don't need a poll. I have statistics and sales numbers=) Better than any poll.
What are you two arguing about?
If there is pvp in a game, you are taking something away from someone. It doesn't have to be an actual item. If you kill someone, you took TIME away from them. Both points are invalid.
Why is WoW the basis of everything? Because it's popular?
Yes
It's like comparing homosexuality to heterosexuality... both popular and both on completely different spectrums. WoW turned mmos mainstream. What existed before it? How many mmo players existed before it? Where would we be today if it didn't exist? Have any of you actually sat down and thought about this?
I want to know what everyone's daily activities were in these "old school" games that was so much more entertaining than what is offered today. Seriously, what did you do during the day in-game that you can't do in games of today?
What impacts on the game world were there in the games of old that aren't in the new generation?
How can one change the game world in WoW clones? In EVE Online you can build a space station.
Player collision is in a lot of mmos. What player collision are you talking about in old mmos? UO collision? 2d collision? really?
Can a Tank collide with a Boss in WoW? Names the MMOs that have true player-to-player and player-to-NPC collision. It's a small number
Darkfall has merchants, SWG has merchants (this is probably the one game I will say was destroyed by mainstream titles like WoW)
Yes of course. You misread my post, read again. I refer to WoW clones being a regression. Obviously SW@G PreCU was not a WoW clone right. Nor is Darkfall.
PvP is a deciding factor on if I purchase a game or not. If it's not what you expected then you didn't read enough!
Dying clothing? This is a social aspect and means absolutely nothing in terms of gameplay. Granted, it makes some people happy. That doesn't make it necessity or something I want developers working on.
So you are happy looking just like everyone else? Wearing matching guild uniforms is a cool feature too me. Wearing mismatched equipment is a negative too me.
Rails? Once again... this all boils down to the type of game you want to play. Darkfall has no rails. Eve has no rails. WoW is a rail.
You misread my post. Read again
I don't think it boils down to anything. There are enough flavors of mmo to appeal to anyone. Just because an mmo isn't mainstream doesn't mean you shouldn't play it. I think that's where most of you fall. You want the mainstream titles to cater to you. It's not going to happen. Find your niche and run with it, but don't tell everyone else that the genre is full of shit. It just makes you look misinformed (or you just didnt read my post at all)
Um.
I played EVE Online for about three years from 2004-2007 and experienced all aspects of the game, from empire carebear, to empire war, to faction war, to alliance politics and diplomacy in 0.0.
The game is a niche game. A very good niche game, but a niche game nonetheless. Why? Because most people don't like the fact that you are, most of the time (and will still be the case with AVs in the stations) a spaceship for all intents and purposes. I think EVE is an excellent game and I enjoyed my time in EVE and have been happy to see it grow over the years, but it's still a niche game.
EVE had a tiny sub base when I started in early 2004. The only way CCP was able to keep the game afloat was because the game actually did not cost that much to make as compared to a land-based game. Why? Because in essence the game is not graphically intensive or environment intensive. It simply required much less work to create, meaning less capital intensive. The design was appropriate for the kind of game they planned, but replicating that model (start off really, really small and then gradually grow over the course of 5-6 years) in the context of a land-based game with much higher development capital costs is going to be almost impossible financially. So that's good news for CCP but not so good news for folks who are making land-based MMOs.
You seem to appear to think running a LAnd based game architecture is more expensive. This is incorrect. The development costs for a content driven game is more expensive yes. But once deployed, the Server Architecture is indifferent to whether it's space or Land.
When the server is running a space sim, the only major difference is that it can run less collision routines on the server. This is mostly due to the fact most of the time the player is not colliding with anything
When the player is running around on ground then yes, you run more CPU server-side to ensure the player is not using hacks to walk through walls and such
Did you take a poll, since you somehow know what the demand is for?
If you look at new MMORPGs they realize that WoW PVP sucks. That is why the new ones are trying to get the PVP audience, they just dont know how yet. WAR, AION, etc. were all supposed to be PVP games. They realize that WOW PVP sucks and that they can easily get that audience if they had a good PVP system in their game.
I think there is a desire for a game with real PVP, but all we've been getting is WoW clones so these games fail
I agree with this post all the way.
You want meaningful, hardcore, collision based, epic pvp?
Then play darkfall and stop asking for a game like it!
Um.
I played EVE Online for about three years from 2004-2007 and experienced all aspects of the game, from empire carebear, to empire war, to faction war, to alliance politics and diplomacy in 0.0.
The game is a niche game. A very good niche game, but a niche game nonetheless. Why? Because most people don't like the fact that you are, most of the time (and will still be the case with AVs in the stations) a spaceship for all intents and purposes. I think EVE is an excellent game and I enjoyed my time in EVE and have been happy to see it grow over the years, but it's still a niche game.
EVE had a tiny sub base when I started in early 2004. The only way CCP was able to keep the game afloat was because the game actually did not cost that much to make as compared to a land-based game. Why? Because in essence the game is not graphically intensive or environment intensive. It simply required much less work to create, meaning less capital intensive. The design was appropriate for the kind of game they planned, but replicating that model (start off really, really small and then gradually grow over the course of 5-6 years) in the context of a land-based game with much higher development capital costs is going to be almost impossible financially. So that's good news for CCP but not so good news for folks who are making land-based MMOs.
You seem to appear to think running a LAnd based game architecture is more expensive. This is incorrect. The development costs for a content driven game is more expensive yes. But once deployed, the Server Architecture is indifferent to whether it's space or Land.
When the server is running a space sim, the only major difference is that it can run less collision routines on the server. This is mostly due to the fact most of the time the player is not colliding with anything
When the player is running around on ground then yes, you run more CPU server-side to ensure the player is not using hacks to walk through walls and such
No, not running it, Patch, developing it.
All CCP needed to do was plop a few objects in systems, most of which are based on a small handful of designs. The "world" is mostly a static backdrop -- again several versions of it, but that's that. There is no "world" that they needed to develop. That's a huge cost that EVE simply doesn't have in nearly the same degree as land-based MMOs. It's much more expensive developing and building out the content in a game like EQ2 or LOTRO than it was for EVE. it's true that they added things later in terms of content over the course of time. But still, EVE is content-light compared to a land-based MMO. That drives the development cost down -- the sunk capital cost that you and your investors/financers/publishers are incurring prior to launch and looking to recoup afterwards. Normally the capital recovery model is not based on the idea that you start small and grow over time and eventually recover your capital over the course of 5-6 years, simply because that kind of growth trajectory is rather exceptional for an MMORPG. CCP was fortunate in that its sunk development costs were lower than would have been the case had it been a land-based game. It was also fortunate in that the main investor was the Bank of Iceland, which was patient with its investment. In a more "strictly commercial" environment, and with higher sunk development costs that a less patient investor was looking to either recover or write off within a certain period of time, the game would not have survived, most likely. I think it's good that it DID survive, mind you, but it's no model for a game with the kinds of high development costs that a land-based game has.