Guild Wars never felt like a virtual world because you could just click where you want to go if you've been there before. But at least they forced you to make the journey once I think really good pvp needs some form of Travel. Travel alone can be an excellent penalty. If some ganker comes to some land that my guild owns and he is ganking our miners/crafters, etc and I kill him. Well, if it takes him a whole hour to come back well there you go- Travel alone can make an excellent penalty
On the other hand it can feel like a tough timesink for people I understand.
I really liked how in LinkRealms a master wizard could make a portal and travel to places they've 'bookmarked'.
So I'm not sure where I stand on Travel. But I do see Ginkeq reasoning that Travel makes a virtual world feel more real. I am open to alternatives though. I liked how in EVE Online I could use my jump clone once a day to travel to my other clones....
I do feel like Guild wars made things way too easy. But I actually thought WoW did this one kinda ok
If I'm reading a book... say all of Lord of the Rings, I don't need the realistic immersion of reading 17 years worth of filler of Frodo's travel to justify "immersion". If you play a video game for realism... you're doing it wrong.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Guild Wars never felt like a virtual world because you could just click where you want to go if you've been there before. But at least they forced you to make the journey once I think really good pvp needs some form of Travel. Travel alone can be an excellent penalty. If some ganker comes to some land that my guild owns and he is ganking our miners/crafters, etc and I kill him. Well, if it takes him a whole hour to come back well there you go- Travel alone can make an excellent penalty
On the other hand it can feel like a tough timesink for people I understand.
I really liked how in LinkRealms a master wizard could make a portal and travel to places they've 'bookmarked'.
So I'm not sure where I stand on Travel. But I do see Ginkeq reasoning that Travel makes a virtual world feel more real. I am open to alternatives though. I liked how in EVE Online I could use my jump clone once a day to travel to my other clones....
I do feel like Guild wars made things way too easy. But I actually thought WoW did this one kinda ok
If I'm reading a book... say all of Lord of the Rings, I don't need the realistic immersion of reading 17 years worth of filler of Frodo's travel to justify "immersion". If you play a video game for realism... you're doing it wrong.
Not sure I follow. Games like Counterstrike, Call of Duty, and so forth break records all the time and all they do is emulate 'realism' to an extent
While you read a book like Lord of the Rings- think bout what the adventurers are 'doing'. They are traveling to Morodor or whatever right? To destroy the ring?
Just imagine if they could just instantly teleport to this mountain and destroy the ring
Travel is a very important feature and its essential to the story books we read.
I'm not saying all games need Travel. I'm saying 'I would love' to see MMOs for virtual world fans like myself that treasures the journey and player impact
The Internet community has changed. In the good ol' days of the Internet it was early adopter types, eg nerds, today everyone and their grandma's have broad band. Eight year olds have broad band in their bedrooms.
This is just going to be a infinite loop of crying, ten years from now the current MMO players will be posting about how hard they had it. Lolvet - "MAH VIDYA GAM WUZ HARDR" Lolnoob - "UR GAMEZ WERE BORIN".
Bragging over playing hard games, it impresses the ladies I guess.
LOL!!!
Kids in my generation were bored over Grampa's World War II stories. Imagine being a kid having to listen to Everquest stories!
"When I was a ship builder in SWG we didn't have any stupid auction houses. We had to set our own vendors and restock them ourselves, 4 kilometers away with nothing to ride but a half broken, smoking speeder doing 15kph!!! You kids nowadays are soft!!!"
Some of us prefer our burdens to be real life burdens that bare us real fruits and real rewards in said real life. When we sit down to play a game, we play it to enjoy it. The old mechanics of spending hours ingame doing dull, uninteresting things to get to the point where you can enjoy 15 minutes of exciting gameplay are over.
This is just going to be a infinite loop of crying, ten years from now the current MMO players will be posting about how hard they had it. Lolvet - "MAH VIDYA GAM WUZ HARDR" Lolnoob - "UR GAMEZ WERE BORIN".
Bragging over playing hard games, it impresses the ladies I guess.
LOL!!!
Kids in my generation were bored over Grampa's World War II stories. Imagine being a kid having to listen to Everquest stories!
....
Thankfully this will not be the case since the old school model is still prevalent. So hopefully it'll be the inverse where the kids of tomorrow will sit aghast that people used to play WoW
"Daddy, why did all those millions of people play World of Warcraft? It was such a simple game! Guilds couldn't even own land! You couldn't even dye your armor! You get ripped off Daddy paying for all those expansions!"
i was trying to make the point that if people want to play a certain way, they should pick a game that caters to their tastes. if you like to shoot guns then play counterstrike, (im going to go to the extreme now: and say the new FOTM is guns in world of warcraft, people will ask and ask and change the whole MMO industry and it will change what MMOs are to make it gun related, (regardless of the theme of the game, again this was an exageration)
people want easy, they pick MMOGs and demand changes and devs and investors say, hmm more people are gonna come in if we do these changes? make it so. so the MMO industry is able to change their WORLDs to cater to the majority.
if i want to play solo i go play oblivion
if i want to shoot people i play counter strike or modern warfare2
if i want adventure i play KOTOR1/2
if i want massivelly ill pick an MMO
and btw most of the posters saying QQ or go play darkfall, clearely you did not read my whole post.
as for those who say we are not a dying breed? hmmm im comparing it to the WHOLE MMO genre and not simply on this forum. "we want sandbox blablabla. when they get it they say its bad, boring, stupid,to hard, to long etc.... WoW is the leader in MMO industry the same as Mcdonnald is in fast food chains. Lots of people are trying to be "better" but they fail simply because the new is not familiar and people are unconfortable with the unfamiliar and go back to what they know and understand (Mcdonnalds)
No. Seems to me, if you want "massivelly", you gripe about how MMO's don't give you what you want. Hypocricize much?
If I want to play a MMO I go play LotRO. It's not exactly what I want in an MMO but I enjoy it. Just like I enjoyed Eve, SWG, Dragonrealms MUD, pnp DnD, Champions, Villains and Vigilantes, Gamma World... I suppose if I had your attitude, I'd have called us PnP'ers a dying breed because DDO didn't adhere 100% to the PnP game.
You're the one complaining that modern MMO's don't have what you want. You refuse to face the fact that MMO's have changed and thus have refused to enjoy any of them. That's your choice. They obviously are loved by others, or they aren't and fail all on their own.
Most people like WoW; ie, they "picked a game that catered to their tastes". It didn't carry my interest. Neither did Aion. My response was to NOT play those games and instead play one I COULD enjoy. If others like those games, good for them. If you don't, go find one you do like or go back to one you DID like.
Lastly, you appear to have no idea whatsoever how much of a pompous fool you sound like when you start talking about what is and what isn't a "real mmo"; what someone should play if they want "X" type of experience. YOU don't get to define what kind of game I should play if I want a 3PS, a 1 player game, or anything else. I'll play however I want with whatever game I want. And no game company has to abide by your criteria to declare their game part of any genre. Get over yourself, already...
This is just going to be a infinite loop of crying, ten years from now the current MMO players will be posting about how hard they had it. Lolvet - "MAH VIDYA GAM WUZ HARDR" Lolnoob - "UR GAMEZ WERE BORIN".
Bragging over playing hard games, it impresses the ladies I guess.
LOL!!!
Kids in my generation were bored over Grampa's World War II stories. Imagine being a kid having to listen to Everquest stories!
....
Thankfully this will not be the case since the old school model is still prevalent. So hopefully it'll be the inverse where the kids of tomorrow will sit aghast that people used to play WoW
"Daddy, why did all those millions of people play World of Warcraft? It was such a simple game! Guilds couldn't even own land! You couldn't even dye your armor! You get ripped off Daddy paying for all those expansions!"
IMO, the best games are often the ones that can be as sophisticated or as simple as you want to play them. Eve appealed to me for this reason. You could be a CFO of a corp or go pew pew pew rats and mine rocks all day. Your choice.
imho people need to stop living in the past because you'll never see the future.
Games like WoW is the best for all of the players. It's easy enough so you don't spend more of your RL time just learning how to play it. The Raids/Instances are short so you (again) don't have to spend more of your RL time playing the game. Hardcore/vets are still living in the 80's. Hello it's gonna be 2010 soon. Life is not as easy as before. Games are more popular now not because it's more fun BUT because it's a temporary ESCAPE from the RL stress we get from all kinds of pollution and i'm not just talking about nature pollution.
Ya know you hardcore MMOers are like zombies. Every time we think we shot you dead you rise again, usually with the war-cry you are famous for "SOE sux".
Really, I have respect every person has another taste. But for me personally, I could NEVER EVER fathom what any sane person would like about EQ1 or UO style gaming. Ya know, I am a gamer for 25 years, and I gamed a LOT. But when UOand EQ1 were new, friends where showing it to me, and I tested it out, and I thought NO FRIGGING WAY. I mean, the downtimes alone were appalling. Sitting down in EQ1 after every damn mob to wait for mana regen? WTF? I felt like waiting in the shopping que in some socialist grocery shop! Please wait, bananas are out, we get new in a week. Or hours of deadly travel just to get your group together? Or death penalities where every passer by can rob my dead body blind?
I am sorry when I find such things NOT ENTERTAINING. I say they are trained masochism, like the drooling dog of Pavlov, and its entirely beyond me why anyone would find that entertaining. Thats not to say MMOs today are perfect, far from it! But the solution can't be going back to MMO stone age!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
MMOs haven't changed. The Internet community has changed. In the good ol' days of the Internet it was early adopter types, eg nerds, today everyone and their grandma's have broad band. Eight year olds have broad band in their bedrooms. Change with it, or find a new hobby.
Nope, certain people will cry forever about what was stolen from them by the big, bad, evil, NORMAL people. The funny thing is, most of them are barely in their 20s=) Dying breed, hehe. Most of them only know what an ATARI 2600 is because of an emulator or because its nailed to the wall on display at a TGIFridays.
MMOs haven't changed. The Internet community has changed. In the good ol' days of the Internet it was early adopter types, eg nerds, today everyone and their grandma's have broad band. Eight year olds have broad band in their bedrooms. Change with it, or find a new hobby.
Nope, certain people will cry forever about what was stolen from them by the big, bad, evil, NORMAL people. The funny thing is, most of them are barely in their 20s=) Dying breed, hehe. Most of them only know what an ATARI 2600 is because of an emulator or because its nailed to the wall on display at a TGIFridays.
Sigh... if only MMO's could all be like Swordquest: Fireworld... :P
MMOs haven't changed. The Internet community has changed. In the good ol' days of the Internet it was early adopter types, eg nerds, today everyone and their grandma's have broad band. Eight year olds have broad band in their bedrooms. Change with it, or find a new hobby.
Nope, certain people will cry forever about what was stolen from them by the big, bad, evil, NORMAL people. The funny thing is, most of them are barely in their 20s=) Dying breed, hehe. Most of them only know what an ATARI 2600 is because of an emulator or because its nailed to the wall on display at a TGIFridays.
Haha, yeah I always laugh out loud when some 20-something kid tells me of the grand old days of gaming. XD
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
old school MMORPG gamers i see more and more posts now with people that are asking for arena style pvp, instanced raids, gear grinders, easy to level, and continuous end game content. where winning depends on gear. i started my MMO days with ultima online, pre-trammel, and i know some that started with MUDs. for me an MMORPG is a big world that is so vast that to go from one side to the other would take some preparation. where content was created by the players themselves and the devs simply made the tools available to us. player housing was not instanced but you would build your own house inside the world. (you better put some security in that house because thieves can come and steal anything in it) the world was made barren and us the players made the end game content and built on this barren world, it was not about me, myself and I. it was about me IN my community (be clan or guild) versus other communities. we created fame by our actions and not by our gear and lvl.
yes it was a harsh world and solo play was extremely hard so people played in teams, and thats the way it was meant to. It was not for everyone and the developers knew that. and instead of trying to make that game appeal to more people they instead try to please their current communities. but now people are asking for MMORPG games that they can log in and play the way they want to how they want to. if they want to go solo, then the MMORPG of their choice should be able to cater to the ability to play solo. if they want to group then they have that option IF they want to. People want MMORPGs to be easier to reach the end game, and instead of making the game playable while leveling, they make it faster to reach end game (why not simply start them up at max lvl?) honestly i think if they want to play solo, they should find a single player game (oblivion, witcher, dragon age KOTOR, KOTOR2 , freelancer: a few that come to mind) if they want a quick in and out, then play adventure games, or Multiplayer games. i realize that this new generation of MMORPG gaming has the majority of players asking for MMORPGs that play like SP and MP games. and thats the reality of the situation. there are a few games that are comming out (some already out) that are inspired by the old days, but look at the bashing they get all over the place. (thinking of darkfall), though i agree it has its problems but not much more than the problems UO had (specially at the beginning) but give it sometime and darkfall will be up to what UO used to be (including player housing) and i would not be surprised if they have flying mounts (if they survive the harsh years to come and newer games with more budget) mortal online is also coming out eventually which has some promising features. right now i am playing eve. it has most of the features of old school gaming. the only down i see to it is the space. (its the same everywhere.) but its not enough to drive me away from the game cuz the good outweight the bad. right now i am very tight on money and i really do not have 50$ to spend on darkfall. but if i had i would buy it without hesitating. even if it has its flaws. again i am seeing more and more new school gamers and less and less old school gamers, we are a dying breed and its getting to a point of having 1 less old school MMORPG player (me) if 2010 does not improve. but i kind of see a glint of hope... hopefully it will not be shadowed by the new style. i know this is a wall of text hey, im old school. Andy
Opne world hardcore free for all pvp full loot non instance freedom build or destroy citys if your not playing this game your not realy old school so stop whining.
Darkfall or shut up:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
MMOs haven't changed. The Internet community has changed. In the good ol' days of the Internet it was early adopter types, eg nerds, today everyone and their grandma's have broad band. Eight year olds have broad band in their bedrooms. Change with it, or find a new hobby.
Nope, certain people will cry forever about what was stolen from them by the big, bad, evil, NORMAL people. The funny thing is, most of them are barely in their 20s=) Dying breed, hehe. Most of them only know what an ATARI 2600 is because of an emulator or because its nailed to the wall on display at a TGIFridays.
Haha, yeah I always laugh out loud when some 20-something kid tells me of the grand old days of gaming. XD
second
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
MMOs haven't changed. The Internet community has changed. In the good ol' days of the Internet it was early adopter types, eg nerds, today everyone and their grandma's have broad band. Eight year olds have broad band in their bedrooms. Change with it, or find a new hobby.
Nope, certain people will cry forever about what was stolen from them by the big, bad, evil, NORMAL people. The funny thing is, most of them are barely in their 20s=) Dying breed, hehe. Most of them only know what an ATARI 2600 is because of an emulator or because its nailed to the wall on display at a TGIFridays.
Haha, yeah I always laugh out loud when some 20-something kid tells me of the grand old days of gaming. XD
second
I'm only just nineteen myself, first console I played on was... hmmm, a computer in DOS, Captain Comic and Commander Keen, later moving on to DOOM and Duke Nukem (where are you, Duke Nukem Forever?)
The second console I played on was the Super Nintendo (missed out on playing the original NES, oh well) - played a lot of Turtles in Time and Super Mario World 1/2/3. (I always enjoyed playing Donatello for the long-range of the staff.)
Then I got my very own Nintendo 64 and enjoyed the two Zelda's released for it - Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, Majora's Mask I still reckon is one of their best Zelda games, simply because of the heavy adult themes granted by the NPC characters thoughts that they were all going to die, most likely, quite soon, along with the actual deaths of various characters you met. It also didn't follow the same ol' <find 3 stones> -> <get master sword> -> <defeat six temples> -> <kill ganon> storyline.
Bah, I eventually moved to computer gaming as a primary, and still have a Gamecube sitting upstairs, but no Wii/360/PS3 in my house.
But yeah, I remember the "good ol' days", like most people do. Except mine lie in the late 90's, haha.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
I too would like to see the return of some older systems. Its difficult to express exactly which systems I like, because there is an intricate interdependency amongst such systems. I think because of this, most people merely express the culmination of those systems as a specific game.
A short story to illustrate what I mean. The Oasis of Marr was (If I recall correctly) was mostly considered level 15-20ish. There were madmen, crocs, orcs and zombies to pull. However, dispersed in these mobs were much higher level ones. Sand Giants and Specters come to mind. There were a few times in my Wizard's low 30's that I joined a group to hunt those mobs in that area. These groups weren't really for experience, as Sand Giants and Specters weren't worth all that much experience and were not clustered in an area, but they did tend to drop a lot more money. Substantially more at the time.
The combination of several systems here created very entertaining environment for me. When I was in the Oasis hunting sand giants not only was I getting what I wanted out of the group, money, but I was also helping lower levels by keeping their areas safer for them to level in. In turn, they would often times yell letting my group know when and where a sand giant spawned. A type of symbiosis, I suppose, or perhaps better defined as a community.
A few of the systems at play here are:
Circular design. There were various high level camps or areas of zones that catered to specific level ranges, interspersed with those of other level ranges.
Varying of difficulty of mobs and rewards. Sand giants tended to be a lot harder than your typical mob their level. They hit harder and had more hp amongst other things, but they also returned a lot more money as opposed to experience against mobs of that typical level.
Playing a bit of a minor role here was the death penalty. People don't like dieing and losing their time to mobs that were greatly above them, so they were every bit happy to offer assistance to my group. In modern day MMOs the penalty for dieing is so limited, most people just shrug it off and say nothing about it. Or no one cares. (Example: Roaming Upper Level Elites in Southern Barrens. Countless times I've seen people scream they're there, only to be scorned and humiliated in chat, saying suck it up amongst other things. Eventually, people just stop announcing their presence)
So to say that I like the circular design philosophy is a bit of an understatement, because it alone did not bring the enjoyable experience I found. So I tend to describe that experience simply as EverQuest. And I think thats what most "MMO Vets" or "Old School MMOers" are trying to talk about. That they want a resurgence of a type of system, but its difficult to explain that system fully, and it may not be compatible with newer, more modern systems that are focused on shortening undesirables such as downtime.
Sadly, the amount of depth required to express what aspects of a specific game are desirable characteristics and why are difficult enough to probably not really be feasible to express on a forum board. And thats why we tend to always degrade into bloody flame wars at the drop of a hat, or mention of a specific game or system, which usually results in everyone making an ass out of themselves.
I too would like to see the return of some older systems. Its difficult to express exactly which systems I like, because there is an intricate interdependency amongst such systems. I think because of this, most people merely express the culmination of those systems as a specific game.
A short story to illustrate what I mean. The Oasis of Marr was (If I recall correctly) was mostly considered level 15-20ish. There were madmen, crocs, orcs and zombies to pull. However, dispersed in these mobs were much higher level ones. Sand Giants and Specters come to mind. There were a few times in my Wizard's low 30's that I joined a group to hunt those mobs in that area. These groups weren't really for experience, as Sand Giants and Specters weren't worth all that much experience and were not clustered in an area, but they did tend to drop a lot more money. Substantially more at the time. The combination of several systems here created very entertaining environment for me. When I was in the Oasis hunting sand giants not only was I getting what I wanted out of the group, money, but I was also helping lower levels by keeping their areas safer for them to level in. In turn, they would often times yell letting my group know when and where a sand giant spawned. A type of symbiosis, I suppose, or perhaps better defined as a community.
A few of the systems at play here are: Circular design. There were various high level camps or areas of zones that catered to specific level ranges, interspersed with those of other level ranges. Varying of difficulty of mobs and rewards. Sand giants tended to be a lot harder than your typical mob their level. They hit harder and had more hp amongst other things, but they also returned a lot more money as opposed to experience against mobs of that typical level. Playing a bit of a minor role here was the death penalty. People don't like dieing and losing their time to mobs that were greatly above them, so they were every bit happy to offer assistance to my group. In modern day MMOs the penalty for dieing is so limited, most people just shrug it off and say nothing about it. Or no one cares. (Example: Roaming Upper Level Elites in Southern Barrens. Countless times I've seen people scream they're there, only to be scorned and humiliated in chat, saying suck it up amongst other things. Eventually, people just stop announcing their presence)
So to say that I like the circular design philosophy is a bit of an understatement, because it alone did not bring the enjoyable experience I found. So I tend to describe that experience simply as EverQuest. And I think thats what most "MMO Vets" or "Old School MMOers" are trying to talk about. That they want a resurgence of a type of system, but its difficult to explain that system fully, and it may not be compatible with newer, more modern systems that are focused on shortening undesirables such as downtime. Sadly, the amount of depth required to express what aspects of a specific game are desirable characteristics and why are difficult enough to probably not really be feasible to express on a forum board. And thats why we tend to always degrade into bloody flame wars at the drop of a hat, or mention of a specific game or system, which usually results in everyone making an ass out of themselves.
I agree. Many of the subtle features can have a major impact on game play. This why it's some times hard to explain why a newer MMO doesn't "feel" right. The big features are there, but many of the little details just don't exist anymore.
Haha Gink, so you stop pretending to be a skilled player as no one buys the bullshit. Now you pretend to talk on behalf of "old timers" as if ... and oh you are only 23 and you are still drinking milk when I got my PhD. You are old timer in your dreams? The new generation displaces the old, that is progression. Trying to look back as if the past is better is just illusion. Trying to preach to us when you are only 23, is just bullshit. I am possibly older than your parents.
Always bringing up the RL
I don't really care what you think, but I will give you some history:
EQ was my first MMO, I started on the most hardcore and most difficult server, Sullon Zek (PvP server, no ruleset)
Now most of you people from EQ may not know what went on with that server, but it was basically a server with lots of griefing and PVP going on. You would try to level and a group of 60s would come take over your zone, and you would have to either get out of the zone or get killed. Whenever people raided on my server, there were teams training each other all the time. Everyone wanted to raid Ssra Temple, Vex Thal, Planes of Power, etc. But only one guild could, so whenever people raided, 90% of the time other guilds would show up and either PK you or pull trains over your raid. After that, you basically had no chance of recovering that day, and other guilds would steal the NPC. It was like that every day, lots of griefing, corpse camping, training, PVP going on.
I may be young, but I know what a real MMO is with real PVP, because Sullon Zek was an all-out warzone. There wasn't a day where you could avoid PVP.
I was one of the most famous PVPers on Sullon Zek. I want a game with real PVP like that, again.
Thank you. You were 11 when EQ launches, you are 23 now. EQ was your first MMO, you have never seen the griefing of UO. You only play EQ, you never know the bloodiness of Korean PvP games. And you come here to lecture us, about what a 11 old boy in his basement sees MMO to be. Big deal.
Thank you for your long self introduction or call it bragging? I simply do not buy a dime of it. All you are saying is you grow up in a PvP server with griefing and such and that makes you superior, even though nothing you wrote shows understanding and tact. What you wrote about PvP server we all know, we been there, from UO to many asian pvp servers. What is new? Nothing. And to your little skull, that is the most impressive thing you can list. Oh very impressive.
Go moan some more. "Mom I want my gear and I want no one else wearing it".
I too would like to see the return of some older systems. Its difficult to express exactly which systems I like, because there is an intricate interdependency amongst such systems. I think because of this, most people merely express the culmination of those systems as a specific game.
A short story to illustrate what I mean. The Oasis of Marr was (If I recall correctly) was mostly considered level 15-20ish. There were madmen, crocs, orcs and zombies to pull. However, dispersed in these mobs were much higher level ones. Sand Giants and Specters come to mind. There were a few times in my Wizard's low 30's that I joined a group to hunt those mobs in that area. These groups weren't really for experience, as Sand Giants and Specters weren't worth all that much experience and were not clustered in an area, but they did tend to drop a lot more money. Substantially more at the time. The combination of several systems here created very entertaining environment for me. When I was in the Oasis hunting sand giants not only was I getting what I wanted out of the group, money, but I was also helping lower levels by keeping their areas safer for them to level in. In turn, they would often times yell letting my group know when and where a sand giant spawned. A type of symbiosis, I suppose, or perhaps better defined as a community.
A few of the systems at play here are: Circular design. There were various high level camps or areas of zones that catered to specific level ranges, interspersed with those of other level ranges. Varying of difficulty of mobs and rewards. Sand giants tended to be a lot harder than your typical mob their level. They hit harder and had more hp amongst other things, but they also returned a lot more money as opposed to experience against mobs of that typical level. Playing a bit of a minor role here was the death penalty. People don't like dieing and losing their time to mobs that were greatly above them, so they were every bit happy to offer assistance to my group. In modern day MMOs the penalty for dieing is so limited, most people just shrug it off and say nothing about it. Or no one cares. (Example: Roaming Upper Level Elites in Southern Barrens. Countless times I've seen people scream they're there, only to be scorned and humiliated in chat, saying suck it up amongst other things. Eventually, people just stop announcing their presence)
So to say that I like the circular design philosophy is a bit of an understatement, because it alone did not bring the enjoyable experience I found. So I tend to describe that experience simply as EverQuest. And I think thats what most "MMO Vets" or "Old School MMOers" are trying to talk about. That they want a resurgence of a type of system, but its difficult to explain that system fully, and it may not be compatible with newer, more modern systems that are focused on shortening undesirables such as downtime. Sadly, the amount of depth required to express what aspects of a specific game are desirable characteristics and why are difficult enough to probably not really be feasible to express on a forum board. And thats why we tend to always degrade into bloody flame wars at the drop of a hat, or mention of a specific game or system, which usually results in everyone making an ass out of themselves.
Oh Magoo... you've done it again!
Seriously, you nailed it.
Ah... Oasis... many fond memories there, but probably the best was at a fairly young level hunting crocs... some pinhead tried to KS me but I still won it. As he turned to call me a n00b, a second croc ate his lunch from behind. I'm sorry... I was too weak with laughter to help! But I did manage to run up on to one of those hill things near the water,
Opne world hardcore free for all pvp full loot non instance freedom build or destroy citys if your not playing this game your not realy old school so stop whining.
Darkfall or shut up:)
Actually 2 worlds, NA1 and EU1
but im playing Eve Online, 1 actual world (where EU and NA play) that has pretty much all the features you described but a bit more refined, since it does have a couple more years under its belt.
bit of spelling and punctuation might help
though i am thinking of merging my 2 accounts in Eve and getting DFO (now i have to find 50$ somewhere...)
My first MMORPG was Ultima Online also pre-trammel. Very few virtual world type games around anymore, they are mostly multiplayer games in terms of how they function. It suits the instant gratification crowd who seem to like following linear paths with rewards at the end for little to no risk involved.
Currently playing Eve online a true virtual world (or universe in its case). :-)
Comments
If I'm reading a book... say all of Lord of the Rings, I don't need the realistic immersion of reading 17 years worth of filler of Frodo's travel to justify "immersion". If you play a video game for realism... you're doing it wrong.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
If I'm reading a book... say all of Lord of the Rings, I don't need the realistic immersion of reading 17 years worth of filler of Frodo's travel to justify "immersion". If you play a video game for realism... you're doing it wrong.
Not sure I follow. Games like Counterstrike, Call of Duty, and so forth break records all the time and all they do is emulate 'realism' to an extent
While you read a book like Lord of the Rings- think bout what the adventurers are 'doing'. They are traveling to Morodor or whatever right? To destroy the ring?
Just imagine if they could just instantly teleport to this mountain and destroy the ring
Travel is a very important feature and its essential to the story books we read.
I'm not saying all games need Travel. I'm saying 'I would love' to see MMOs for virtual world fans like myself that treasures the journey and player impact
MMOs haven't changed.
The Internet community has changed. In the good ol' days of the Internet it was early adopter types, eg nerds, today everyone and their grandma's have broad band. Eight year olds have broad band in their bedrooms.
Change with it, or find a new hobby.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
LOL!!!
Kids in my generation were bored over Grampa's World War II stories. Imagine being a kid having to listen to Everquest stories!
"When I was a ship builder in SWG we didn't have any stupid auction houses. We had to set our own vendors and restock them ourselves, 4 kilometers away with nothing to ride but a half broken, smoking speeder doing 15kph!!! You kids nowadays are soft!!!"
Some of us prefer our burdens to be real life burdens that bare us real fruits and real rewards in said real life. When we sit down to play a game, we play it to enjoy it. The old mechanics of spending hours ingame doing dull, uninteresting things to get to the point where you can enjoy 15 minutes of exciting gameplay are over.
LOL!!!
Kids in my generation were bored over Grampa's World War II stories. Imagine being a kid having to listen to Everquest stories!
....Thankfully this will not be the case since the old school model is still prevalent. So hopefully it'll be the inverse where the kids of tomorrow will sit aghast that people used to play WoW
"Daddy, why did all those millions of people play World of Warcraft? It was such a simple game! Guilds couldn't even own land! You couldn't even dye your armor! You get ripped off Daddy paying for all those expansions!"
i was trying to make the point that if people want to play a certain way, they should pick a game that caters to their tastes. if you like to shoot guns then play counterstrike, (im going to go to the extreme now: and say the new FOTM is guns in world of warcraft, people will ask and ask and change the whole MMO industry and it will change what MMOs are to make it gun related, (regardless of the theme of the game, again this was an exageration)
people want easy, they pick MMOGs and demand changes and devs and investors say, hmm more people are gonna come in if we do these changes? make it so. so the MMO industry is able to change their WORLDs to cater to the majority.
if i want to play solo i go play oblivion
if i want to shoot people i play counter strike or modern warfare2
if i want adventure i play KOTOR1/2
if i want massivelly ill pick an MMO
and btw most of the posters saying QQ or go play darkfall, clearely you did not read my whole post.
as for those who say we are not a dying breed? hmmm im comparing it to the WHOLE MMO genre and not simply on this forum. "we want sandbox blablabla. when they get it they say its bad, boring, stupid,to hard, to long etc.... WoW is the leader in MMO industry the same as Mcdonnald is in fast food chains. Lots of people are trying to be "better" but they fail simply because the new is not familiar and people are unconfortable with the unfamiliar and go back to what they know and understand (Mcdonnalds)
No. Seems to me, if you want "massivelly", you gripe about how MMO's don't give you what you want. Hypocricize much?
If I want to play a MMO I go play LotRO. It's not exactly what I want in an MMO but I enjoy it. Just like I enjoyed Eve, SWG, Dragonrealms MUD, pnp DnD, Champions, Villains and Vigilantes, Gamma World... I suppose if I had your attitude, I'd have called us PnP'ers a dying breed because DDO didn't adhere 100% to the PnP game.
You're the one complaining that modern MMO's don't have what you want. You refuse to face the fact that MMO's have changed and thus have refused to enjoy any of them. That's your choice. They obviously are loved by others, or they aren't and fail all on their own.
Most people like WoW; ie, they "picked a game that catered to their tastes". It didn't carry my interest. Neither did Aion. My response was to NOT play those games and instead play one I COULD enjoy. If others like those games, good for them. If you don't, go find one you do like or go back to one you DID like.
Lastly, you appear to have no idea whatsoever how much of a pompous fool you sound like when you start talking about what is and what isn't a "real mmo"; what someone should play if they want "X" type of experience. YOU don't get to define what kind of game I should play if I want a 3PS, a 1 player game, or anything else. I'll play however I want with whatever game I want. And no game company has to abide by your criteria to declare their game part of any genre. Get over yourself, already...
LOL!!!
Kids in my generation were bored over Grampa's World War II stories. Imagine being a kid having to listen to Everquest stories!
....Thankfully this will not be the case since the old school model is still prevalent. So hopefully it'll be the inverse where the kids of tomorrow will sit aghast that people used to play WoW
"Daddy, why did all those millions of people play World of Warcraft? It was such a simple game! Guilds couldn't even own land! You couldn't even dye your armor! You get ripped off Daddy paying for all those expansions!"
IMO, the best games are often the ones that can be as sophisticated or as simple as you want to play them. Eve appealed to me for this reason. You could be a CFO of a corp or go pew pew pew rats and mine rocks all day. Your choice.
imho people need to stop living in the past because you'll never see the future.
Games like WoW is the best for all of the players. It's easy enough so you don't spend more of your RL time just learning how to play it. The Raids/Instances are short so you (again) don't have to spend more of your RL time playing the game. Hardcore/vets are still living in the 80's. Hello it's gonna be 2010 soon. Life is not as easy as before. Games are more popular now not because it's more fun BUT because it's a temporary ESCAPE from the RL stress we get from all kinds of pollution and i'm not just talking about nature pollution.
Ya know you hardcore MMOers are like zombies. Every time we think we shot you dead you rise again, usually with the war-cry you are famous for "SOE sux".
Really, I have respect every person has another taste. But for me personally, I could NEVER EVER fathom what any sane person would like about EQ1 or UO style gaming. Ya know, I am a gamer for 25 years, and I gamed a LOT. But when UOand EQ1 were new, friends where showing it to me, and I tested it out, and I thought NO FRIGGING WAY. I mean, the downtimes alone were appalling. Sitting down in EQ1 after every damn mob to wait for mana regen? WTF? I felt like waiting in the shopping que in some socialist grocery shop! Please wait, bananas are out, we get new in a week. Or hours of deadly travel just to get your group together? Or death penalities where every passer by can rob my dead body blind?
I am sorry when I find such things NOT ENTERTAINING. I say they are trained masochism, like the drooling dog of Pavlov, and its entirely beyond me why anyone would find that entertaining. Thats not to say MMOs today are perfect, far from it! But the solution can't be going back to MMO stone age!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Nope, certain people will cry forever about what was stolen from them by the big, bad, evil, NORMAL people. The funny thing is, most of them are barely in their 20s=) Dying breed, hehe. Most of them only know what an ATARI 2600 is because of an emulator or because its nailed to the wall on display at a TGIFridays.
Nope, certain people will cry forever about what was stolen from them by the big, bad, evil, NORMAL people. The funny thing is, most of them are barely in their 20s=) Dying breed, hehe. Most of them only know what an ATARI 2600 is because of an emulator or because its nailed to the wall on display at a TGIFridays.
Sigh... if only MMO's could all be like Swordquest: Fireworld... :P
Since they're not, then they're not MMO's...
Nope, certain people will cry forever about what was stolen from them by the big, bad, evil, NORMAL people. The funny thing is, most of them are barely in their 20s=) Dying breed, hehe. Most of them only know what an ATARI 2600 is because of an emulator or because its nailed to the wall on display at a TGIFridays.
Haha, yeah I always laugh out loud when some 20-something kid tells me of the grand old days of gaming. XD
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Opne world hardcore free for all pvp full loot non instance freedom build or destroy citys if your not playing this game your not realy old school so stop whining.
Darkfall or shut up:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Nope, certain people will cry forever about what was stolen from them by the big, bad, evil, NORMAL people. The funny thing is, most of them are barely in their 20s=) Dying breed, hehe. Most of them only know what an ATARI 2600 is because of an emulator or because its nailed to the wall on display at a TGIFridays.
Haha, yeah I always laugh out loud when some 20-something kid tells me of the grand old days of gaming. XD
second
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Nope, certain people will cry forever about what was stolen from them by the big, bad, evil, NORMAL people. The funny thing is, most of them are barely in their 20s=) Dying breed, hehe. Most of them only know what an ATARI 2600 is because of an emulator or because its nailed to the wall on display at a TGIFridays.
Haha, yeah I always laugh out loud when some 20-something kid tells me of the grand old days of gaming. XD
second
I'm only just nineteen myself, first console I played on was... hmmm, a computer in DOS, Captain Comic and Commander Keen, later moving on to DOOM and Duke Nukem (where are you, Duke Nukem Forever?)
The second console I played on was the Super Nintendo (missed out on playing the original NES, oh well) - played a lot of Turtles in Time and Super Mario World 1/2/3. (I always enjoyed playing Donatello for the long-range of the staff.)
Then I got my very own Nintendo 64 and enjoyed the two Zelda's released for it - Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, Majora's Mask I still reckon is one of their best Zelda games, simply because of the heavy adult themes granted by the NPC characters thoughts that they were all going to die, most likely, quite soon, along with the actual deaths of various characters you met. It also didn't follow the same ol' <find 3 stones> -> <get master sword> -> <defeat six temples> -> <kill ganon> storyline.
Bah, I eventually moved to computer gaming as a primary, and still have a Gamecube sitting upstairs, but no Wii/360/PS3 in my house.
But yeah, I remember the "good ol' days", like most people do. Except mine lie in the late 90's, haha.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
I too would like to see the return of some older systems. Its difficult to express exactly which systems I like, because there is an intricate interdependency amongst such systems. I think because of this, most people merely express the culmination of those systems as a specific game.
A short story to illustrate what I mean. The Oasis of Marr was (If I recall correctly) was mostly considered level 15-20ish. There were madmen, crocs, orcs and zombies to pull. However, dispersed in these mobs were much higher level ones. Sand Giants and Specters come to mind. There were a few times in my Wizard's low 30's that I joined a group to hunt those mobs in that area. These groups weren't really for experience, as Sand Giants and Specters weren't worth all that much experience and were not clustered in an area, but they did tend to drop a lot more money. Substantially more at the time.
The combination of several systems here created very entertaining environment for me. When I was in the Oasis hunting sand giants not only was I getting what I wanted out of the group, money, but I was also helping lower levels by keeping their areas safer for them to level in. In turn, they would often times yell letting my group know when and where a sand giant spawned. A type of symbiosis, I suppose, or perhaps better defined as a community.
A few of the systems at play here are:
Circular design. There were various high level camps or areas of zones that catered to specific level ranges, interspersed with those of other level ranges.
Varying of difficulty of mobs and rewards. Sand giants tended to be a lot harder than your typical mob their level. They hit harder and had more hp amongst other things, but they also returned a lot more money as opposed to experience against mobs of that typical level.
Playing a bit of a minor role here was the death penalty. People don't like dieing and losing their time to mobs that were greatly above them, so they were every bit happy to offer assistance to my group. In modern day MMOs the penalty for dieing is so limited, most people just shrug it off and say nothing about it. Or no one cares. (Example: Roaming Upper Level Elites in Southern Barrens. Countless times I've seen people scream they're there, only to be scorned and humiliated in chat, saying suck it up amongst other things. Eventually, people just stop announcing their presence)
So to say that I like the circular design philosophy is a bit of an understatement, because it alone did not bring the enjoyable experience I found. So I tend to describe that experience simply as EverQuest. And I think thats what most "MMO Vets" or "Old School MMOers" are trying to talk about. That they want a resurgence of a type of system, but its difficult to explain that system fully, and it may not be compatible with newer, more modern systems that are focused on shortening undesirables such as downtime.
Sadly, the amount of depth required to express what aspects of a specific game are desirable characteristics and why are difficult enough to probably not really be feasible to express on a forum board. And thats why we tend to always degrade into bloody flame wars at the drop of a hat, or mention of a specific game or system, which usually results in everyone making an ass out of themselves.
I agree. Many of the subtle features can have a major impact on game play. This why it's some times hard to explain why a newer MMO doesn't "feel" right. The big features are there, but many of the little details just don't exist anymore.
Always bringing up the RL
I don't really care what you think, but I will give you some history:
EQ was my first MMO, I started on the most hardcore and most difficult server, Sullon Zek (PvP server, no ruleset)
Now most of you people from EQ may not know what went on with that server, but it was basically a server with lots of griefing and PVP going on. You would try to level and a group of 60s would come take over your zone, and you would have to either get out of the zone or get killed. Whenever people raided on my server, there were teams training each other all the time. Everyone wanted to raid Ssra Temple, Vex Thal, Planes of Power, etc. But only one guild could, so whenever people raided, 90% of the time other guilds would show up and either PK you or pull trains over your raid. After that, you basically had no chance of recovering that day, and other guilds would steal the NPC. It was like that every day, lots of griefing, corpse camping, training, PVP going on.
I may be young, but I know what a real MMO is with real PVP, because Sullon Zek was an all-out warzone. There wasn't a day where you could avoid PVP.
I was one of the most famous PVPers on Sullon Zek. I want a game with real PVP like that, again.
Thank you. You were 11 when EQ launches, you are 23 now. EQ was your first MMO, you have never seen the griefing of UO. You only play EQ, you never know the bloodiness of Korean PvP games. And you come here to lecture us, about what a 11 old boy in his basement sees MMO to be. Big deal.
Thank you for your long self introduction or call it bragging? I simply do not buy a dime of it. All you are saying is you grow up in a PvP server with griefing and such and that makes you superior, even though nothing you wrote shows understanding and tact. What you wrote about PvP server we all know, we been there, from UO to many asian pvp servers. What is new? Nothing. And to your little skull, that is the most impressive thing you can list. Oh very impressive.
Go moan some more. "Mom I want my gear and I want no one else wearing it".
Oh Magoo... you've done it again!
Seriously, you nailed it.
Ah... Oasis... many fond memories there, but probably the best was at a fairly young level hunting crocs... some pinhead tried to KS me but I still won it. As he turned to call me a n00b, a second croc ate his lunch from behind. I'm sorry... I was too weak with laughter to help! But I did manage to run up on to one of those hill things near the water,
Opne world hardcore free for all pvp full loot non instance freedom build or destroy citys if your not playing this game your not realy old school so stop whining.
Darkfall or shut up:)
Actually 2 worlds, NA1 and EU1
but im playing Eve Online, 1 actual world (where EU and NA play) that has pretty much all the features you described but a bit more refined, since it does have a couple more years under its belt.
bit of spelling and punctuation might help
though i am thinking of merging my 2 accounts in Eve and getting DFO (now i have to find 50$ somewhere...)
My first MMORPG was Ultima Online also pre-trammel. Very few virtual world type games around anymore, they are mostly multiplayer games in terms of how they function. It suits the instant gratification crowd who seem to like following linear paths with rewards at the end for little to no risk involved.
Currently playing Eve online a true virtual world (or universe in its case). :-)