Originally posted by Phry Originally posted by -aLpHa- Ahahaha, EvE in the top 3 of top 100 of PC games? This smells, like a big pile of poo. I could understand it if would be in the top MMO's but top 100 PC games? Seriously? Portal > EvE big time.
The scariest part of that top 100 thing though.. is just how many times various incarnations of the Simms appeared in it.. it makes it look like a significant percentage of pc users (games players anyway) like playing dolls houses.. you can't tell me those votes were all from the female contingent!
Well even if i don't really like The Sims, i can see why it's popular, especially by females which actually tells allot. Getting woman to play ain't that easy, so more kuddos to them ;P.
Originally posted by Lovesurgeon Originally posted by -aLpHa-
Originally posted by Lovesurgeon
Originally posted by -aLpHa- Ahahaha, EvE in the top 3 of top 100 of PC games? This smells, like a big pile of poo. I could understand it if would be in the top MMO's but top 100 PC games? Seriously? Portal > EvE big time.
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0/10 Please try again. Imitation is the sincerst form of flattery. I doubt you are my type. If you're a sexy ladyboy then send me a PM with pics then we can talk.
No i just imitated you to show you my irritation about your response using a score, i just scored your response because it didn't tell me allot. If you have something to say then say it and don't use a numerical system to show us that you can't argue your arguments.
Ahahaha, EvE in the top 3 of top 100 of PC games? This smells, like a big pile of poo. I could understand it if would be in the top MMO's but top 100 PC games? Seriously?
Portal > EvE big time.
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Imitation is the sincerst form of flattery. I doubt you are my type. If you're a sexy ladyboy then send me a PM with pics then we can talk.
No i just imitated you to show you my irritation about your response using a score, i just scored your response because it didn't tell me allot. If you have something to say then say it and don't use a numerical system to show us that you can't argue your arguments.
And big pile of poo is an argument now ?
Ok I will play along. You think Portal is > Eve. Apparantly all the people who voted in the poll thought differently from you. I guess your opinion is the only one that matters right ?
BTW I think Portal is an awesome game as well, it's just a very different game from Eve. How do you even compare a strategical territorial control pvp mmo with an FPS Puzzle game ?
Originally posted by Lovesurgeon Originally posted by -aLpHa-
Originally posted by Lovesurgeon
Originally posted by -aLpHa-
Originally posted by Lovesurgeon
Originally posted by -aLpHa- Ahahaha, EvE in the top 3 of top 100 of PC games? This smells, like a big pile of poo. I could understand it if would be in the top MMO's but top 100 PC games? Seriously? Portal > EvE big time.
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0/10 Please try again.
Imitation is the sincerst form of flattery. I doubt you are my type. If you're a sexy ladyboy then send me a PM with pics then we can talk.
No i just imitated you to show you my irritation about your response using a score, i just scored your response because it didn't tell me allot. If you have something to say then say it and don't use a numerical system to show us that you can't argue your arguments. And big pile of poo is an argument now ? Ok I will play along. You think Portal is > Eve. Apparantly all the people who voted in the poll thought differently from you. I guess your opinion is the only one that matters right ? BTW I think Portal is an awesome game as well, it's just a very different game from Eve. How do you even compare a strategical territorial control pvp mmo with an FPS Puzzle game ?
It's called having a opinion, yes i know i did it with a harsh fashion but i expressed it. The big pile of poo was rather pointed to a rigged poll, in my experience EvE fans always jump on such polls and using bots/scripts ain't too far fetched to archive what they want.
Btw i never compared Portal to EvE, i just think EvE doesn't deserve that place so i took a game that just came to mind (it could also be replaced by Elite, Freelancer, Privateer or Freespace/Freespace 2) that i think is more entertaining.
The real truth of the matter is that this is not an accurate reflection of the popularity of games in the PC genre.
I mean seriously?
How do Warcraft III and Starcraft not make the list as they are two of the highest grossing and most popular PC games ever. Half-Life 2 deserves it's spot, but where are the Sims games - some of the most popular PC games ever? What about the Civilization series?
This is bad science, bad polling. As someone who unfortunately had to study research methods vigorously in college, I can tell you with assurance that this poll is not in any way scientific.
Money = box's sold, box's sold = popularity, popularity = "best" there is no other way to have a quantitatively accurate and scientific list.
Originally posted by Lovesurgeon Originally posted by -aLpHa-It's called having a opinion, yes i know i did it with a harsh fashion but i expressed it. The big pile of poo was rather pointed to a rigged poll, in my experience EvE fans always jump on such polls and using bots/scripts ain't too far fetched to archive what they want. Btw i never compared Portal to EvE, i just think EvE doesn't deserve that place so i took a game that just came to mind (it could also be replaced by Elite, Freelancer, Privateer or Freespace/Freespace 2) that i think is more entertaining.
You are right about one thing, it is called having an opinion. The only problem here though is that because it's an opinion that's not the same as yours the poll is now rigged because Eve players use bots and scipts to rig these polls. Please show me proof of this happening ? At this point you are either a) really simple or b) a troll. If the answer is A I apologize to you for your condition, if the answer is B then I upgrade my original rating 0 to a 1.
How do you want the proof served? A screen of a EvE player holding up a sign with "I use a vote script"? If you seriously believe something like this doesn't happen in Internet polls than you are ignorant. Just google a bit and you would be surprised how many sophisticated greasemonkey scripts (to give 1 example) are out there. They read captchas, reconnect for IP changes and other funny stuff. The Internet is proof enough.
It's called having a opinion, yes i know i did it with a harsh fashion but i expressed it. The big pile of poo was rather pointed to a rigged poll, in my experience EvE fans always jump on such polls and using bots/scripts ain't too far fetched to archive what they want.
Btw i never compared Portal to EvE, i just think EvE doesn't deserve that place so i took a game that just came to mind (it could also be replaced by Elite, Freelancer, Privateer or Freespace/Freespace 2) that i think is more entertaining.
You are right about one thing, it is called having an opinion. The only problem here though is that because it's an opinion that's not the same as yours the poll is now rigged because Eve players use bots and scipts to rig these polls. Please show me proof of this happening ?
At this point you are either a) really simple or b) a troll. If the answer is A I apologize to you for your condition, if the answer is B then I upgrade my original rating 0 to a 1.
How do you want the proof served? A screen of a EvE player holding up a sign with "I use a vote script"? If you seriously believe something like this doesn't happen in Internet polls than you are ignorant. Just google a bit and you would be surprised how many sophisticated greasemonkey scripts (to give 1 example) are out there. They read captchas, reconnect for IP changes and other funny stuff. The Internet is proof enough.
I want more proof than just you saying it could happen so therefor it did happen.
I say all the Half Life fanboys rigged the poll, how else could that crap game make it to #1, do you know how many scripts andbots there are out there that can do this sort of thing. Eve should have been #1 damnit.
The real truth of the matter is that this is not an accurate reflection of the popularity of games in the PC genre.
I mean seriously?
How do Warcraft III and Starcraft not make the list as they are two of the highest grossing and most popular PC games ever. Half-Life 2 deserves it's spot, but where are the Sims games - some of the most popular PC games ever? What about the Civilization series?
This is bad science, bad polling. As someone who unfortunately had to study research methods vigorously in college, I can tell you with assurance that this poll is not in any way scientific.
Money = box's sold, box's sold = popularity, popularity = "best" there is no other way to have a quantitatively accurate and scientific list.
Originally posted by Lovesurgeon Originally posted by -aLpHa-
Originally posted by Lovesurgeon
Originally posted by -aLpHa- It's called having a opinion, yes i know i did it with a harsh fashion but i expressed it. The big pile of poo was rather pointed to a rigged poll, in my experience EvE fans always jump on such polls and using bots/scripts ain't too far fetched to archive what they want. Btw i never compared Portal to EvE, i just think EvE doesn't deserve that place so i took a game that just came to mind (it could also be replaced by Elite, Freelancer, Privateer or Freespace/Freespace 2) that i think is more entertaining.
You are right about one thing, it is called having an opinion. The only problem here though is that because it's an opinion that's not the same as yours the poll is now rigged because Eve players use bots and scipts to rig these polls. Please show me proof of this happening ? At this point you are either a) really simple or b) a troll. If the answer is A I apologize to you for your condition, if the answer is B then I upgrade my original rating 0 to a 1.
How do you want the proof served? A screen of a EvE player holding up a sign with "I use a vote script"? If you seriously believe something like this doesn't happen in Internet polls than you are ignorant. Just google a bit and you would be surprised how many sophisticated greasemonkey scripts (to give 1 example) are out there. They read captchas, reconnect for IP changes and other funny stuff. The Internet is proof enough. I want more proof than just you saying it could happen so therefor it did happen. I say all the Half Life fanboys rigged the poll, how else could that crap game make it to #1, do you know how many scripts andbots there are out there that can do this sort of thing. Eve should have been #1 damnit.
The difference between HL2 being up there and EvE is a difference in popularity, i agree the HL2 guys could have done the same but for a game that is rather niche to be so high up, that just smells funny.
The real truth of the matter is that this is not an accurate reflection of the popularity of games in the PC genre.
I mean seriously?
How do Warcraft III and Starcraft not make the list as they are two of the highest grossing and most popular PC games ever. Half-Life 2 deserves it's spot, but where are the Sims games - some of the most popular PC games ever? What about the Civilization series?
This is bad science, bad polling. As someone who unfortunately had to study research methods vigorously in college, I can tell you with assurance that this poll is not in any way scientific.
Money = box's sold, box's sold = popularity, popularity = "best" there is no other way to have a quantitatively accurate and scientific list.
Also known as the McDonalds argument. More people eat at a MacDonalds than any other resteraunt, therefore MacDonalds is the best resteraunt.
The fallacy is obvious.
Indeed.
Similarly, many of the most-watched movies of all time would not make most people's favorites list, and if you do some poking around your friends' Facebook profiles you'll tend to notice quite a lot of not-very-popular films. You could argue that people name obscure things as their favorites dishonestly because they feel those things don't get enough recognition, and that may be so, but the result remains.
Frankly, whatever its flaws, I think that polling people on their opinions is a hell of a lot more reliable than sales numbers. Think of how many games you've bought and hated, and I rest my case.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Please let's just keep the numbers of copies sold = popularity = best arguments out of here. That's proven time and time again to be pointless and stupid beyond belief.
So instead we base a poll and/or rating on personal opinion and other qualitative measurements that by definition cannot be measured nor stacked against one another?
I'm not saying there is a direct correlation between box sales and how "good" a game is, but "good" is a highly subjective term and in order to quantitatively measure something by some arbitrary scale you HAVE to use provable and scientifically valid variables.
And box sales does indeed = popularity.
And even if something popular isn't "good" by your definition or mine, if it is popular then enough people think it is good to be labelled as such by the only scientific means we have.
The real truth of the matter is that this is not an accurate reflection of the popularity of games in the PC genre.
I mean seriously?
How do Warcraft III and Starcraft not make the list as they are two of the highest grossing and most popular PC games ever. Half-Life 2 deserves it's spot, but where are the Sims games - some of the most popular PC games ever? What about the Civilization series?
This is bad science, bad polling. As someone who unfortunately had to study research methods vigorously in college, I can tell you with assurance that this poll is not in any way scientific.
Money = box's sold, box's sold = popularity, popularity = "best" there is no other way to have a quantitatively accurate and scientific list.
People have been arguing what method or way or thing is better for thousands of years.
We will not "solve" the debate on how much weight we give a qualitative measure. Not on these forums.
Hence, whenever you bring up a non-scientific poll based upon "choice" and "opinion" - highly subjective measures, it gains zero credibility and as such to those educated in research methods and poll taking etc. it bring into question the validity, accuracy, and indeed honesty of a poll's gathering and calculation methods.
The "McDonald's" argument is actually more scientific, and as such carries greater validity and thusly honesty and accuracy.
However popular does not indeed equal "best" in a great many cases, but as "best" is entirely subjective and un-scientific, ignoring popularity and easily recognized and validated information such as sales/subscription numbers etc. is pure lunacy.
Please let's just keep the numbers of copies sold = popularity = best arguments out of here. That's proven time and time again to be pointless and stupid beyond belief.
So instead we base a poll and/or rating on personal opinion and other qualitative measurements that by definition cannot be measured nor stacked against one another?
I'm not saying there is a direct correlation between box sales and how "good" a game is, but "good" is a highly subjective term and in order to quantitatively measure something by some arbitrary scale you HAVE to use provable and scientifically valid variables.
And box sales does indeed = popularity.
And even if something popular isn't "good" by your definition or mine, if it is popular then enough people think it is good to be labelled as such by the only scientific means we have.
Sure, if you assume that most of them pirated it (or played it on someone else's system) before buying it, yet that seems improbable to me.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
The difference between HL2 being up there and EvE is a difference in popularity, i agree the HL2 guys could have done the same but for a game that is rather niche to be so high up, that just smells funny.
So if the Eve players used bots and scripts to rig the poll and we only came in 3rd what did the fans of 1 and 2 do to get their spots ?
EVE players, as has been shown many times through awards / public voting, are a fantatical bunch who will go out of their way to promote their game.
Most MMO players, just don't care enough to do that.
Most MMOs require their players to play the game to advance, which is what they are doing rather than posting on forums. Eve, however, allows their "avatars" to advance while they are offline. Spamming forums = XP grinding in Eve.
Sure, if you assume that most of them pirated it (or played it on someone else's system) before buying it, yet that seems improbable to me.
On assumptions you cannot a scientific poll make.
Who ever said it was scientific ?
Frankly I would be upset if someone wasted such resources on such a poll to make it scientifc. We have more important things in the world to put those kinds on resources into.
Are people really this upset that Eve is #3 ? I would hate, actually no I would love to see what would happen if Eve actually placed #1.
EVE players, as has been shown many times through awards / public voting, are a fantatical bunch who will go out of their way to promote their game.
Most MMO players, just don't care enough to do that.
Most MMOs require their players to play the game to advance, which is what they are doing rather than posting on forums. Eve, however, allows their "avatars" to advance while they are offline. Spamming forums = XP grinding in Eve.
Actually, because I am level capped while I wait for my WoW raid to start im watching porn and fapping while spamming the forums.
Originally posted by Malcanis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum Also known as the McDonalds argument. More people eat at a MacDonalds than any other resteraunt, therefore MacDonalds is the best resteraunt. The fallacy is obvious.
Ooh...how hard you fail.
If the poll was actually not about popularity(aka best game) you might have made a point.
Frankly I would be upset if someone wasted such resources on such a poll to make it scientifc. We have more important things in the world to put those kinds on resources into.
Are people really this upset that Eve is #3 ? I would hate, actually no I would love to see what would happen if Eve actually placed #1.
It's not that anyone is upset, it's just that anyone who isn't an EvE fan (and I do play EvE myself) questions the validity of this poll considering the MASSIVE number of PC games that the vast majority of PC gamers would say deserves to be in the top 5 over the very suspect list given by this poll.
It's not JUST EvE, it's the lack of plenty of other genre defining and/or changing PC titles.
I question why the EvE faithful are SO adamant to defend their game's place in the top 5 of a shitty poll?
If this were a top 5 "current" PC games or top 5 in the past 5 years kind of poll it'd make a lot more sense... but all time? It just shows the average PC gamer reader who voted in this poll is quite new to the genre of PC games, or there is something fishy about the tabulation of votes.
eves been around for 7 years now. they started off rocky with a very small playerbase even boot dev's and staff at 1 point but in the past 4 years they have been growing unlike most mmo's where after 5 years the player pops slowly shrinks ive noticed in eve each year its rising (really nicley ) ive been on eve for 4 years now and its well worth it. the amount you can do ingame is just awsome. eve i can already tell you will end up being the longest running mmo in history just because of the system they developed. their is no grinding. simple skill training on and offline. and the players control everything in eve. this game kicks ass. and any1 who feels different is entitled to their opinion. but if u read eves fourms ud now they release quarterly reports and a constant update on eveerything from patchs to new server upgrades. to what each member to the team is doin. it is the best mmo company/game i have ever found.. inshort eve has my sub for life. :-)
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Well even if i don't really like The Sims, i can see why it's popular, especially by females which actually tells allot. Getting woman to play ain't that easy, so more kuddos to them ;P.
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Imitation is the sincerst form of flattery. I doubt you are my type. If you're a sexy ladyboy then send me a PM with pics then we can talk.
No i just imitated you to show you my irritation about your response using a score, i just scored your response because it didn't tell me allot. If you have something to say then say it and don't use a numerical system to show us that you can't argue your arguments.
Is this what this thread has devolved into?
And big pile of poo is an argument now ?
Ok I will play along. You think Portal is > Eve. Apparantly all the people who voted in the poll thought differently from you. I guess your opinion is the only one that matters right ?
BTW I think Portal is an awesome game as well, it's just a very different game from Eve. How do you even compare a strategical territorial control pvp mmo with an FPS Puzzle game ?
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Imitation is the sincerst form of flattery. I doubt you are my type. If you're a sexy ladyboy then send me a PM with pics then we can talk.
No i just imitated you to show you my irritation about your response using a score, i just scored your response because it didn't tell me allot. If you have something to say then say it and don't use a numerical system to show us that you can't argue your arguments.
And big pile of poo is an argument now ?
Ok I will play along. You think Portal is > Eve. Apparantly all the people who voted in the poll thought differently from you. I guess your opinion is the only one that matters right ?
BTW I think Portal is an awesome game as well, it's just a very different game from Eve. How do you even compare a strategical territorial control pvp mmo with an FPS Puzzle game ?
It's called having a opinion, yes i know i did it with a harsh fashion but i expressed it. The big pile of poo was rather pointed to a rigged poll, in my experience EvE fans always jump on such polls and using bots/scripts ain't too far fetched to archive what they want.
Btw i never compared Portal to EvE, i just think EvE doesn't deserve that place so i took a game that just came to mind (it could also be replaced by Elite, Freelancer, Privateer or Freespace/Freespace 2) that i think is more entertaining.
The real truth of the matter is that this is not an accurate reflection of the popularity of games in the PC genre.
I mean seriously?
How do Warcraft III and Starcraft not make the list as they are two of the highest grossing and most popular PC games ever. Half-Life 2 deserves it's spot, but where are the Sims games - some of the most popular PC games ever? What about the Civilization series?
This is bad science, bad polling. As someone who unfortunately had to study research methods vigorously in college, I can tell you with assurance that this poll is not in any way scientific.
Money = box's sold, box's sold = popularity, popularity = "best" there is no other way to have a quantitatively accurate and scientific list.
At this point you are either a) really simple or b) a troll. If the answer is A I apologize to you for your condition, if the answer is B then I upgrade my original rating 0 to a 1.
How do you want the proof served? A screen of a EvE player holding up a sign with "I use a vote script"? If you seriously believe something like this doesn't happen in Internet polls than you are ignorant. Just google a bit and you would be surprised how many sophisticated greasemonkey scripts (to give 1 example) are out there. They read captchas, reconnect for IP changes and other funny stuff. The Internet is proof enough.
I want more proof than just you saying it could happen so therefor it did happen.
I say all the Half Life fanboys rigged the poll, how else could that crap game make it to #1, do you know how many scripts andbots there are out there that can do this sort of thing. Eve should have been #1 damnit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Also known as the McDonalds argument. More people eat at a MacDonalds than any other resteraunt, therefore MacDonalds is the best resteraunt.
The fallacy is obvious.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
You are right about one thing, it is called having an opinion. The only problem here though is that because it's an opinion that's not the same as yours the poll is now rigged because Eve players use bots and scipts to rig these polls. Please show me proof of this happening ?
At this point you are either a) really simple or b) a troll. If the answer is A I apologize to you for your condition, if the answer is B then I upgrade my original rating 0 to a 1.
How do you want the proof served? A screen of a EvE player holding up a sign with "I use a vote script"? If you seriously believe something like this doesn't happen in Internet polls than you are ignorant. Just google a bit and you would be surprised how many sophisticated greasemonkey scripts (to give 1 example) are out there. They read captchas, reconnect for IP changes and other funny stuff. The Internet is proof enough.
I want more proof than just you saying it could happen so therefor it did happen.
I say all the Half Life fanboys rigged the poll, how else could that crap game make it to #1, do you know how many scripts andbots there are out there that can do this sort of thing. Eve should have been #1 damnit.
The difference between HL2 being up there and EvE is a difference in popularity, i agree the HL2 guys could have done the same but for a game that is rather niche to be so high up, that just smells funny.
Indeed.
Similarly, many of the most-watched movies of all time would not make most people's favorites list, and if you do some poking around your friends' Facebook profiles you'll tend to notice quite a lot of not-very-popular films. You could argue that people name obscure things as their favorites dishonestly because they feel those things don't get enough recognition, and that may be so, but the result remains.
Frankly, whatever its flaws, I think that polling people on their opinions is a hell of a lot more reliable than sales numbers. Think of how many games you've bought and hated, and I rest my case.
So instead we base a poll and/or rating on personal opinion and other qualitative measurements that by definition cannot be measured nor stacked against one another?
I'm not saying there is a direct correlation between box sales and how "good" a game is, but "good" is a highly subjective term and in order to quantitatively measure something by some arbitrary scale you HAVE to use provable and scientifically valid variables.
And box sales does indeed = popularity.
And even if something popular isn't "good" by your definition or mine, if it is popular then enough people think it is good to be labelled as such by the only scientific means we have.
IBT "oh you can't use that as an argument" argument.
People have been arguing what method or way or thing is better for thousands of years.
We will not "solve" the debate on how much weight we give a qualitative measure. Not on these forums.
Hence, whenever you bring up a non-scientific poll based upon "choice" and "opinion" - highly subjective measures, it gains zero credibility and as such to those educated in research methods and poll taking etc. it bring into question the validity, accuracy, and indeed honesty of a poll's gathering and calculation methods.
The "McDonald's" argument is actually more scientific, and as such carries greater validity and thusly honesty and accuracy.
However popular does not indeed equal "best" in a great many cases, but as "best" is entirely subjective and un-scientific, ignoring popularity and easily recognized and validated information such as sales/subscription numbers etc. is pure lunacy.
Sure, if you assume that most of them pirated it (or played it on someone else's system) before buying it, yet that seems improbable to me.
So if the Eve players used bots and scripts to rig the poll and we only came in 3rd what did the fans of 1 and 2 do to get their spots ?
On assumptions you cannot a scientific poll make.
Yeah, imagine that.
Most MMOs require their players to play the game to advance, which is what they are doing rather than posting on forums. Eve, however, allows their "avatars" to advance while they are offline. Spamming forums = XP grinding in Eve.
Who ever said it was scientific ?
Frankly I would be upset if someone wasted such resources on such a poll to make it scientifc. We have more important things in the world to put those kinds on resources into.
Are people really this upset that Eve is #3 ? I would hate, actually no I would love to see what would happen if Eve actually placed #1.
Actually, because I am level capped while I wait for my WoW raid to start im watching porn and fapping while spamming the forums.
Ooh...how hard you fail.
If the poll was actually not about popularity(aka best game) you might have made a point.
It's not that anyone is upset, it's just that anyone who isn't an EvE fan (and I do play EvE myself) questions the validity of this poll considering the MASSIVE number of PC games that the vast majority of PC gamers would say deserves to be in the top 5 over the very suspect list given by this poll.
It's not JUST EvE, it's the lack of plenty of other genre defining and/or changing PC titles.
I question why the EvE faithful are SO adamant to defend their game's place in the top 5 of a shitty poll?
If this were a top 5 "current" PC games or top 5 in the past 5 years kind of poll it'd make a lot more sense... but all time? It just shows the average PC gamer reader who voted in this poll is quite new to the genre of PC games, or there is something fishy about the tabulation of votes.
eves been around for 7 years now. they started off rocky with a very small playerbase even boot dev's and staff at 1 point but in the past 4 years they have been growing unlike most mmo's where after 5 years the player pops slowly shrinks ive noticed in eve each year its rising (really nicley ) ive been on eve for 4 years now and its well worth it. the amount you can do ingame is just awsome. eve i can already tell you will end up being the longest running mmo in history just because of the system they developed. their is no grinding. simple skill training on and offline. and the players control everything in eve. this game kicks ass. and any1 who feels different is entitled to their opinion. but if u read eves fourms ud now they release quarterly reports and a constant update on eveerything from patchs to new server upgrades. to what each member to the team is doin. it is the best mmo company/game i have ever found.. inshort eve has my sub for life. :-)
Just to add to the fun, another thread popped up on the forums: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/278621/page/1
Puts EvE at #6 MMO of All Time (said in best Kanye voice).
Thank god people subjectively rate things or we would have a severe lack of discussion topics here.
edit; just to clarify, the forum link points out a third party site (rpgfan.com)
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence