So i demonstrate how a new class was included in P2P DDO but in F2P hybrid DDP it was only available through cash shop or long in game grind and you just dismiss that? Come on, that is the whole point of the move to F2P - charge more for the same or lots more for extra. This is how F2P works, yet even showing the same company doing it with anothet game people ignore it and excuse it?
Can you explain how it works in subscription-based MMOs? When they add a new race or class is normally done for free or do you have to purchase it?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Again what about 32 point builds, Favoured Soul is only 750 more points after 32 point builds and they were 750 points more than veteran characters. So is that really that long of a grind for the next favour unlock?
Also the favoured soul class IS included free for VIP's, the fact that in order to unlock it for free you have to have a certain amount of favor is irrelevent. Of course I fully expect you to ignore what I've posted here for the 3rd or 4th time as it directly refutes your claim but if I don't then people would have nothing to filter your BS with.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Compare the same things - new class added in P2P was included while a new class added in F2P was not included even for VIPs and took cash in shop to get or long grind. This is the kind of change this F2P, hybrid or not, means - things you get with your sub now will become things you have to buy or grind for.
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by AgtSmith
So i demonstrate how a new class was included in P2P DDO but in F2P hybrid DDP it was only available through cash shop or long in game grind and you just dismiss that? Come on, that is the whole point of the move to F2P - charge more for the same or lots more for extra. This is how F2P works, yet even showing the same company doing it with anothet game people ignore it and excuse it?
Can you explain how it works in subscription-based MMOs? When they add a new race or class is normally done for free or do you have to purchase it?
As I said, and this is uncontestable fact, when DDO (Turbine's other F2P Hybrid game) was only P2P subscription they added the monk class and it was no in an expansion that you had to buy, it was included to all subscribers at no additional cost - just log in and make a Monk. Under the new F2P Hybrid system, even as a subscriber, you log in and have to either buy the class in the cash shop (for, coincidently, more than a month’s allotment of points) or you have a fairly long grind of favor to unlock the class and be able to make a Monk.
This is what the difference between subbing to a P2P game and subbing to a F2P Hybrid game means. What you had before for no extra charge will, often, only be available for additional money or if you pursue a long(er) in game grind. F2P has to do this to make money; they must make things easily available for cash in the item shop or inconveniently available in game through a long grind. F2P sells convenience and designing the 'earn it' way to be longer and longer to encourage cash shop purchases of convenience is the very core of the model.
At everyone crying like babies about Turbines decision.
STFU already! Last time I checked the gamming industry isn't a democracy and in the case of LOTRO you don't get a vote or voice.
WHY? Because DDO casted its vote already and money talks. BTW to the OP, lifers are subscribers so shut up about it.
Im so sick and tired of hearing people complain. Ive played nearly every subscripition based game as have many of the people on these forums, I have also played a few FTP. The difference is quality. Quality of gamplay quality of game design quality of the game engine . FTP as a base idea for a games starting payment model, always leads to poorer quality. In LOTRO however its the opposite. FFS if you all weren't so unaware of who you are as people and could balance your lives and wallets then the announcment of LOTRO going FTP wouldn't scare you abit.
All i hear is" blablabla pay to win". The sooner everyone realizes that life isn't fair and people with money have more libertys than people with out it, the sooner i'll be able to sit down at mmorpg.com and not see a thread relating to how many tears joe blow has cried over X game going FTP and him being at a dissadvantage because he can't hold a job over his current MMO addiction.
Don't most of you realize that the minute you enter the game you are at a dissadvantage, because someone else is already a higher level, or the fact that some rich guy could be buying up all the gold from gold sellers.
The reality of this whole situation is that MMO gammers are tired of getting burned by sub-par games and gamming companys and all they are looking for now is someone to blame. But guess what? TURBINE is not a sub par company nor is LOTRO a sub par game. Theres a reason everyone can't stand Turbines decision, you wanna know why.......cause you don't run the goddamn company and its not your choice. So what. Don't play lotro. Who gives a flying F*CK. I for one don't . Why because I don't even play the game. If you do decide to play lotro then good for you, hopefully you will be a loyal subscriber.
Just know that these people who do purchase these items from LOTRO's in game store are sending money back to Turbine at almost a 100% profit, which inturn allows for more updates and expansions. Whats wrong with going above and beyond and supporting a game or company more than the standard 15$ a month? Its my damn money.
For those with their panties in a twist over this whle subject I'll leave you wiht 2 words of advice.
JUST SUBSCRIBE...................................... whoah , i can subscribe stilll ?.... NOOOO WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY.
Flame away asshats.
Subscribing still does not give you access to everything that is in the cash shop. You get some points each month, yes, but not enough to have full access to everything that will be in the cash shop.
That's the beauty of this setup... the illusion that everything is still business as usual for subscribers.
I'm definitely not as knowledgable on the finer points of P2P vs F2P as a lot of the other posters on this thread, but I've played LOTRO loyally since it came out, and the move to F2P is disappointing to me. I've tried to keep an open mind through the announcement and subsequent deluge of criticism, but especially after seeing the screens of the ingame store, it seems to me that F2P is going to cheapen the experience of Middle Earth, at least to me.
Where before I could just pay a flat monthly fee and have complete access to every aspect of the game, now it feels like Turbine wants to chop the experience into pieces, then nickel and dime us for access to each of them. I know that I could pay a higher premium in order to have VIP access to everything, but it doesn't feel the same, and frankly kills it as an immersive experience for me. Middle Earth is a place for all of us to shed our RL identities and play together as equals, with only our skills to determine how far we go, not our wallets.
Now I don't have any facts to back this up, but I'm guessing that on average, a subscriber will probably spend more every month on micro transactions in a game than they would if it was just a flat subscription fee, or otherwise developers wouldnt be making this switch. Turbine is hoping that everytime you log on, you rationize the purchase of that little widget because its so inexpensive, but those widgets add up and Turbine is betting that they will add up to more than you'd pay for a monthly subscription. Just knowing that Turbine wants to nickel and dime me on microtransactions within the immersive beauty and fantasy of Middle Earth is repugnant in my opinion, and I have sadly cancelled my subscription.
There are as many valid opinions on this as there are readers on this thread. This is just my own feeling on the matter.
I'm definitely not as knowledgable on the finer points of P2P vs F2P as a lot of the other posters on this thread
...
Where before I could just pay a flat monthly fee and have complete access to every aspect of the game, now it feels like Turbine wants to chop the experience into pieces, then nickel and dime us for access to each of them.
You are plenty knowledgable, you just summed up what the defenders refuse to see.
here is the problem for subscribers , and i "was" one and have a 65 Ranger .... but wont support this setup..
Your 15.00 a month will be used to develop new content that they will sell back to you....
The 500 TP in the long run will not be near enough to purchase the content you will want , the same content that your 15.00 a month funded , that you would have gotten in updates and events before for free will now cost out of pocket for something that your sub paid to develop .... Pretty Lousy business if you ask me...
And make no mistake about it , the plan is already laid out , that the 500 TP a month will not be enough ...
@Zeowyrm: Actually, presenting supposition as fact is what makes these debates ugly. As well as attacking other posters. Dont you have anything more to contribute to the discussion than that?
Again what about 32 point builds, Favoured Soul is only 750 more points after 32 point builds and they were 750 points more than veteran characters. So is that really that long of a grind for the next favour unlock?
Also the favoured soul class IS included free for VIP's, the fact that in order to unlock it for free you have to have a certain amount of favor is irrelevent. Of course I fully expect you to ignore what I've posted here for the 3rd or 4th time as it directly refutes your claim but if I don't then people would have nothing to filter your BS with.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Compare the same things - new class added in P2P was included while a new class added in F2P was not included even for VIPs and took cash in shop to get or long grind. This is the kind of change this F2P, hybrid or not, means - things you get with your sub now will become things you have to buy or grind for.
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by AgtSmith
So i demonstrate how a new class was included in P2P DDO but in F2P hybrid DDP it was only available through cash shop or long in game grind and you just dismiss that? Come on, that is the whole point of the move to F2P - charge more for the same or lots more for extra. This is how F2P works, yet even showing the same company doing it with anothet game people ignore it and excuse it?
Can you explain how it works in subscription-based MMOs? When they add a new race or class is normally done for free or do you have to purchase it?
As I said, and this is uncontestable fact, when DDO (Turbine's other F2P Hybrid game) was only P2P subscription they added the monk class and it was no in an expansion that you had to buy, it was included to all subscribers at no additional cost - just log in and make a Monk. Under the new F2P Hybrid system, even as a subscriber, you log in and have to either buy the class in the cash shop (for, coincidently, more than a month’s allotment of points) or you have a fairly long grind of favor to unlock the class and be able to make a Monk.
This is what the difference between subbing to a P2P game and subbing to a F2P Hybrid game means. What you had before for no extra charge will, often, only be available for additional money or if you pursue a long(er) in game grind. F2P has to do this to make money; they must make things easily available for cash in the item shop or inconveniently available in game through a long grind. F2P sells convenience and designing the 'earn it' way to be longer and longer to encourage cash shop purchases of convenience is the very core of the model.
What you're saying is that a subscriber can either get it for free with extra points they now get with their subscription or they can get it for free through in-game means. So basically DDO is an exampleof the benefits of adding the F2P component of the game. I'm just a bit at a loss over why you keep dodging the question regarding the standard subscription MMO practice of making new races and classes only available for a purchase price above and beyond the subscription price.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually, presenting supposition as fact is what makes these debates ugly. As well as attacking other posters. Dont you have anything more to contribute to the discussion than that?
Johnny-come-lately, I've been in the thick of this debate for the last two weeks. I'm done trying to argue logic and facts with people who just make up things and jump into discussions with "I don't know all the facts" as a preface. But fine, here's a recap of my thoughts on the matter, just for you.
1)I have no issue with the hybrid payment plan. Nothing changes for subscribers and lifers, and to those who say "They still have to buy the new content" well duh, of course they would. WoW charges for its expansions after all. Fact is, with some grinding, everyone has access to tokens and can buy all the content, just a matter of choosing whether to spend time or money.
2) I am apprehensive on how the model is going to work with LOTRO, as, unlike DDO, it is not heavily instanced. I have my qualms about how seemless it will be, but I don't see the point in over reacting, making things up, and generally trashing the game without having all the facts.
@Zeowyrm: You are being very rude. I am simply offering my own opinion on a subject that means a lot to me, and just because it doesn't agree with your own opinion, does not make it any less valid.
Now I don't have any facts to back this up, but I'm guessing that on average, a subscriber will probably spend more every month on micro transactions in a game than they would if it was just a flat subscription fee, or otherwise developers wouldnt be making this switch.
I think you are wrong. They are banking on more people paying less than less people paying more. DDO works off the fact that most people would not pay a flat monthly fee to keep the game up, but a whole lot more people would come in and pay little bits here and there. Think of it this way 10 people paying $15 to get $150 or 150 peopley playing $1 equals $150. Turbine is banking that more people will be willing to pay that one time one dollar and maybe buy a little more over the course of a month to make it more profitable while costing each individual less than $15.
Way back when DDO went F2P there were some statistics out from Turbine that the average spent by players was $5 a month and buying all the content packs cost around $100. For a year of DDO it would be $160 on F2P and subs would be $180 roughly.
What you're saying is that a subscriber can either get it for free with extra points they now get with their subscription or they can get it for free through in-game means. So basically DDO is an exampleof the benefits of adding the F2P component of the game. I'm just a bit at a loss over why you keep dodging the question regarding the standard subscription MMO practice of making new races and classes only available for a purchase price above and beyond the subscription price.
What part of the below confuses you?
In DDO, when P2P with subscription, the new class Monk was added at no additional charge or in game grind for subscribers. In DDO, when F2P hybrid, the new class Favored Soul was added and required being purchased in the cash shop or being unlocked by very long in game grind EVEN for VIP subscribers.
How is what Turbine did with their other P2P game gone hybrid F2P not fairly extrapolated to what will happen with LotRO when it goes F2p hybrid? Simply put, it is. In DDO now, as a VIP subscriber, you pay the same $$$ per month but do not get the same thing as you did under the old P2P system. Such will be the case in LotRO as well.
Originally posted by zeowyrm
1)I have no issue with the hybrid payment plan. Nothing changes for subscribers and lifers
Factually untrue as I have shown clearly with how they handled DDO. Subcribers in LotRO, like in DDO, will get most of what they got under the old model but not all. And it is very likely, over time, that how much they get in comarison to what they got under the old system will decrease.
@Zeowyrm: You are being very rude. I am simply offering my own opinion on a subject that means a lot to me, and just because it doesn't agree with your own opinion, does not make it any less valid. Learn some manners, boy.
I said nothing about your opinions "boy". If you have a problem with my post, the report button is at the top.
Ah in P2P DDO stuff had to be unlocked through grind before it went to F2P.
Not all stuff, but some. The example I think is most clear is the Monk class, the first and only class added to DDO when it was P2P. Monk was added and it took no unlock in game, you just fired up the game when the MOD was released and made a Monk - but in DDO F2p hybrid the same thing, Favored Soul (the first class added since going F2P) required purchase in the cash shop to unlock OR a very long in game grind, and the price of the unlock in the cash shop well exceeded the monthly allotment of Turbine points. So yes, in DDO before F2P they had stuff that was unlocked by gameplay (like Drow race or 32 point builds) but that stuff was added as kind of endgame prestige stuff. In F2P DDO though, all that stuff and more requires purchasing or grind even for paying subscribers (VIPs).
Ah in P2P DDO stuff had to be unlocked through grind before it went to F2P.
Not all stuff, but some. The example I think is most clear is the Monk class, the first and only class added to DDO when it was P2P. Monk was added and it took no unlock in game, you just fired up the game when the MOD was released and made a Monk - but in DDO F2p hybrid the same thing, Favored Soul (the first class added since going F2P) required purchase in the cash shop to unlock OR a very long in game grind, and the price of the unlock in the cash shop well exceeded the monthly allotment of Turbine points. So yes, in DDO before F2P they had stuff that was unlocked by gameplay (like Drow race or 32 point builds) but that stuff was added as kind of endgame prestige stuff. In F2P DDO though, all that stuff and more requires purchasing or grind even for paying subscribers (VIPs).
You know a person have no arguments left to say when they take a relaly tiny thing and blow it up as something huge.
Keep hating while the rest of us are having fun playing MMOs
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
A tiny thing? You mean showing without a doubt that as a subscriber under the new system you do not get the same as you did under the old system? Or do you mean proving the point I have been making all along that grinds will go up and you will have to pay more to get what you got before? Yeah, what am I thinking pointing out such little things as false statements by people on this topic.
The truth of the matter, big or small, is that DDO proves the things I am others have said about this model not being the 'same' for subscribers. And again, this is just the start - over time the incentive is for the grinds to get higher and higher and the sub to included less and less.
A tiny thing? You mean showing without a doubt that as a subscriber under the new system you do not get the same as you did under the old system? Or do you mean proving the point I have been making all along that grinds will go up and you will have to pay more to get what you got before? Yeah, what am I thinking pointing out such little things as flase statements by people on this topic.
You really havent proven anything, regardless of how much you think you have. The whole Monk being free, and then Favored Soul not being free is nothing but assumptions and wishful thinking. You have no "proof" that it would have been free if the game had stayed P2P, only an assumption based on what happened with the Monk. The majority of the time when a new class is added to an MMO, its part of an expansion which you have to pay for on top of your sub, very very few MMOs ever add things like new classes as simply a free addition to the game.
Warhammer Online as an example, did add 2 classes for free a couple months after launch, however these were classes that were supposed to be in the launch to begin with. However if the game had been more succesful and they were to add new races & classes afterwards, you can bet they wouldnt have just been free additions, they would have been part of an expansion which we would have needed to pay for. Most likely DDO was a similar situation, they added in the Monk after release, and had plans to add other classes such as Favored Soul as part of an expansion, but now that the game had gone F2P, there are no real "expansions" just small content updates that you pay for individually, including the new class. Reality is, if the game had not gone F2P, you would NOT have gotten the Favored Soul for free, but only as part of a paid expansion. Its not because of F2P that you suddenly needed to pay for it.
What you're saying is that a subscriber can either get it for free with extra points they now get with their subscription or they can get it for free through in-game means. So basically DDO is an exampleof the benefits of adding the F2P component of the game. I'm just a bit at a loss over why you keep dodging the question regarding the standard subscription MMO practice of making new races and classes only available for a purchase price above and beyond the subscription price.
What part of the below confuses you?
In DDO, when P2P with subscription, the new class Monk was added at no additional charge or in game grind for subscribers. In DDO, when F2P hybrid, the new class Favored Soul was added and required being purchased in the cash shop or being unlocked by very long in game grind EVEN for VIP subscribers.
How is what Turbine did with their other P2P game gone hybrid F2P not fairly extrapolated to what will happen with LotRO when it goes F2p hybrid? Simply put, it is. In DDO now, as a VIP subscriber, you pay the same $$$ per month but do not get the same thing as you did under the old P2P system. Such will be the case in LotRO as well.
That would now be three times you seemed to have overlooked the question of which subscription MMOs offer free races and classes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
A tiny thing? You mean showing without a doubt that as a subscriber under the new system you do not get the same as you did under the old system? Or do you mean proving the point I have been making all along that grinds will go up and you will have to pay more to get what you got before? Yeah, what am I thinking pointing out such little things as flase statements by people on this topic.
You really havent proven anything, regardless of how much you think you have. The whole Monk being free, and then Favored Soul not being free is nothing but assumptions and wishful thinking. You have no "proof" that it would have been free if the game had stayed P2P, only an assumption based on what happened with the Monk. The majority of the time when a new class is added to an MMO, its part of an expansion which you have to pay for on top of your sub, very very few MMOs ever add things like new classes as simply a free addition to the game.
Warhammer Online as an example, did add 2 classes for free a couple months after launch, however these were classes that were supposed to be in the launch to begin with. However if the game had been more succesful and they were to add new races & classes afterwards, you can bet they wouldnt have just been free additions, they would have been part of an expansion which we would have needed to pay for. Most likely DDO was a similar situation, they added in the Monk after release, and had plans to add other classes such as Favored Soul as part of an expansion, but now that the game had gone F2P, there are no real "expansions" just small content updates that you pay for individually, including the new class. Reality is, if the game had not gone F2P, you would NOT have gotten the Favored Soul for free, but only as part of a paid expansion. Its not because of F2P that you suddenly needed to pay for it.
All of us here are giving out opinions which are at least partially based on assumptions and guesses on how this situation will end up. There is nothing wrong with giving out an opinion, that is what forums are often used for.
AgtSmith often makes two common statements (that I've picked out) with the Lotro F2P conversion.
1. That Lifetime and subscribers will not get getting the same things that they had under the old system.
My opinion is the the same as his (please don't flame based upon my gender assumption). I think it's most reasonable to assume that under the old system you could get 100% of whatever game item was introduced into the game without paying addition (per item) costs with the exception of expansion packs. This new system will have a cash shop and I'm sure that Turbine is planning on getting additional cash shop purchases from the VIP class players. There may be fiscally conservative (with regards to Turbine Points) VIPS that save their points for future expansion or content purchase items. However, most likely a significant portion of VIPS will spend those points on cosmetic and miscellaneous items and have to purchase additional points in excess of what would probably have been spent just buying the annual expansion pack. I'm certain that increased payments from current VIP players is a partial reason for the conversion. As a side issue I often wonder if they got burned with the lifetime subscriptions, there are so many of them (in my guild probably 80%) that it makes me wonder what portion of players in the game are regular paying subscribers. I seriously doubt that they were frugal and saved the bulk payments for future operations, they probably spent it fairly quickly.
2. That Turbine (and any F2P developer) will have an incentive to increase or produce additional grind in order to increase spending on cash store items.
My opinion on this is also in line with AgtSmith. There are already preview articles with sample store items and some of the purchase are for virtue trait increases. Currently you increase these through various deeds including slayer deeds which have you kill X number of critters for the trait increase. For the higher level deeds its something like 360 kills to finish the deed (could be more just going from memory). I find it extremely plausible that Turbine, due to financial incentives, could increase the number of kills per deed, or just increase the cap beyond the current level 10 in some future content release. This would very likely increase sales from players who would rather purchase the trait increase as opposed to putting in the time for the extra grind.
Regardless of where you stand on this conversion (pro or con) you should consider that both sides could be correct on some major points. Perhaps F2P for Lotro is the best way to get the game back on track (development wise). However, that doesn't mean that you have to sugar coat or not be open to the possibility that the company is more cash from the VIP class player (1) or that there will be some changes which are driven by financial incentives (2).
The bottom line for us debaters is that regardless of opinion this change is going through. The best we can hope for with regards to Lotro is that continued future development for long term players is a major factor in future content releases. Once again you may think that some of the the statements against F2P conversions are false (and some based upon fears are) but for the two I've mentioned above I know which side of the betting table I'd be on.
A tiny thing? You mean showing without a doubt that as a subscriber under the new system you do not get the same as you did under the old system? Or do you mean proving the point I have been making all along that grinds will go up and you will have to pay more to get what you got before? Yeah, what am I thinking pointing out such little things as flase statements by people on this topic.
You really havent proven anything, regardless of how much you think you have. The whole Monk being free, and then Favored Soul not being free is nothing but assumptions and wishful thinking. You have no "proof" that it would have been free if the game had stayed P2P, only an assumption based on what happened with the Monk.
??? So showing how Turbine handled a new class before and after the change is not evidence of how this F2P hybrid model works? Sorry but that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It is precisely evidence that under the new model things that where free become restricted.
It also follows with logic and standard business motivation. If you monitize gameplay (advancement, acheivement, etc) then it logically follows that development will shift in a manner that is likely to increase revenue which means more restrictions on such things and more grinds - such is the basis of F2P.
What you're saying is that a subscriber can either get it for free with extra points they now get with their subscription or they can get it for free through in-game means. So basically DDO is an exampleof the benefits of adding the F2P component of the game. I'm just a bit at a loss over why you keep dodging the question regarding the standard subscription MMO practice of making new races and classes only available for a purchase price above and beyond the subscription price.
What part of the below confuses you?
In DDO, when P2P with subscription, the new class Monk was added at no additional charge or in game grind for subscribers. In DDO, when F2P hybrid, the new class Favored Soul was added and required being purchased in the cash shop or being unlocked by very long in game grind EVEN for VIP subscribers.
How is what Turbine did with their other P2P game gone hybrid F2P not fairly extrapolated to what will happen with LotRO when it goes F2p hybrid? Simply put, it is. In DDO now, as a VIP subscriber, you pay the same $$$ per month but do not get the same thing as you did under the old P2P system. Such will be the case in LotRO as well.
That would now be three times you seemed to have overlooked the question of which subscription MMOs offer free races and classes.
I am sorry you struggle with the obvious - TURBINE'S OTHER GAME (DDO) USING THIS F2P HYBRID MODEL SHOWS US WHAT I AM SAYING. BEFORE F2P NEW CLASSES WHERE INCLUDED WITHOUT EXTRA COST OR GRIND, AFTER F2P THE NEW CLASS WAS CASH SHOP OR UNLOCKED WITH LONG GRIND.
My god the obliviousness by the 'defenders' defies reason - to heck with what other games do look to Turbine's other F2P hybrid, it shows everything I am saying regarding this issue.
What you're saying is that a subscriber can either get it for free with extra points they now get with their subscription or they can get it for free through in-game means. So basically DDO is an exampleof the benefits of adding the F2P component of the game. I'm just a bit at a loss over why you keep dodging the question regarding the standard subscription MMO practice of making new races and classes only available for a purchase price above and beyond the subscription price.
What part of the below confuses you?
In DDO, when P2P with subscription, the new class Monk was added at no additional charge or in game grind for subscribers. In DDO, when F2P hybrid, the new class Favored Soul was added and required being purchased in the cash shop or being unlocked by very long in game grind EVEN for VIP subscribers.
How is what Turbine did with their other P2P game gone hybrid F2P not fairly extrapolated to what will happen with LotRO when it goes F2p hybrid? Simply put, it is. In DDO now, as a VIP subscriber, you pay the same $$$ per month but do not get the same thing as you did under the old P2P system. Such will be the case in LotRO as well.
That would now be three times you seemed to have overlooked the question of which subscription MMOs offer free races and classes.
I am sorry you struggle with the obvious - TURBINE'S OTHER GAME (DDO) USING THIS F2P HYBRID MODEL SHOWS US WHAT I AM SAYING. BEFORE F2P NEW CLASSES WHERE INCLUDED WITHOUT EXTRA COST OR GRIND, AFTER F2P THE NEW CLASS WAS CASH SHOP OR UNLOCKED WITH LONG GRIND.
My god the obliviousness by the 'defenders' defies reason - to heck with what other games do look to Turbine's other F2P hybrid, it shows everything I am saying regarding this issue.
As a defender of this hybrid payment model, I have to agree with the point you made. However, I think the point the other poster is making is:
In other, P2P games, they do not give classes/races for free. They're included with the purchase of an expansion, more often then not. Ultimately, they're saying that you always have to pay for these things, one way or another, regardless of P2P or F2P.
Comments
Can you explain how it works in subscription-based MMOs? When they add a new race or class is normally done for free or do you have to purchase it?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You are comparing apples and oranges. Compare the same things - new class added in P2P was included while a new class added in F2P was not included even for VIPs and took cash in shop to get or long grind. This is the kind of change this F2P, hybrid or not, means - things you get with your sub now will become things you have to buy or grind for.
As I said, and this is uncontestable fact, when DDO (Turbine's other F2P Hybrid game) was only P2P subscription they added the monk class and it was no in an expansion that you had to buy, it was included to all subscribers at no additional cost - just log in and make a Monk. Under the new F2P Hybrid system, even as a subscriber, you log in and have to either buy the class in the cash shop (for, coincidently, more than a month’s allotment of points) or you have a fairly long grind of favor to unlock the class and be able to make a Monk.
This is what the difference between subbing to a P2P game and subbing to a F2P Hybrid game means. What you had before for no extra charge will, often, only be available for additional money or if you pursue a long(er) in game grind. F2P has to do this to make money; they must make things easily available for cash in the item shop or inconveniently available in game through a long grind. F2P sells convenience and designing the 'earn it' way to be longer and longer to encourage cash shop purchases of convenience is the very core of the model.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Subscribing still does not give you access to everything that is in the cash shop. You get some points each month, yes, but not enough to have full access to everything that will be in the cash shop.
That's the beauty of this setup... the illusion that everything is still business as usual for subscribers.
I'm definitely not as knowledgable on the finer points of P2P vs F2P as a lot of the other posters on this thread, but I've played LOTRO loyally since it came out, and the move to F2P is disappointing to me. I've tried to keep an open mind through the announcement and subsequent deluge of criticism, but especially after seeing the screens of the ingame store, it seems to me that F2P is going to cheapen the experience of Middle Earth, at least to me.
Where before I could just pay a flat monthly fee and have complete access to every aspect of the game, now it feels like Turbine wants to chop the experience into pieces, then nickel and dime us for access to each of them. I know that I could pay a higher premium in order to have VIP access to everything, but it doesn't feel the same, and frankly kills it as an immersive experience for me. Middle Earth is a place for all of us to shed our RL identities and play together as equals, with only our skills to determine how far we go, not our wallets.
Now I don't have any facts to back this up, but I'm guessing that on average, a subscriber will probably spend more every month on micro transactions in a game than they would if it was just a flat subscription fee, or otherwise developers wouldnt be making this switch. Turbine is hoping that everytime you log on, you rationize the purchase of that little widget because its so inexpensive, but those widgets add up and Turbine is betting that they will add up to more than you'd pay for a monthly subscription. Just knowing that Turbine wants to nickel and dime me on microtransactions within the immersive beauty and fantasy of Middle Earth is repugnant in my opinion, and I have sadly cancelled my subscription.
There are as many valid opinions on this as there are readers on this thread. This is just my own feeling on the matter.
Emphasis on "illusion".
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
And this, right here, is why these debates turn ugly.
You are plenty knowledgable, you just summed up what the defenders refuse to see.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
here is the problem for subscribers , and i "was" one and have a 65 Ranger .... but wont support this setup..
Your 15.00 a month will be used to develop new content that they will sell back to you....
The 500 TP in the long run will not be near enough to purchase the content you will want , the same content that your 15.00 a month funded , that you would have gotten in updates and events before for free will now cost out of pocket for something that your sub paid to develop .... Pretty Lousy business if you ask me...
And make no mistake about it , the plan is already laid out , that the 500 TP a month will not be enough ...
@Zeowyrm: Actually, presenting supposition as fact is what makes these debates ugly. As well as attacking other posters. Dont you have anything more to contribute to the discussion than that?
What you're saying is that a subscriber can either get it for free with extra points they now get with their subscription or they can get it for free through in-game means. So basically DDO is an exampleof the benefits of adding the F2P component of the game. I'm just a bit at a loss over why you keep dodging the question regarding the standard subscription MMO practice of making new races and classes only available for a purchase price above and beyond the subscription price.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Johnny-come-lately, I've been in the thick of this debate for the last two weeks. I'm done trying to argue logic and facts with people who just make up things and jump into discussions with "I don't know all the facts" as a preface. But fine, here's a recap of my thoughts on the matter, just for you.
1)I have no issue with the hybrid payment plan. Nothing changes for subscribers and lifers, and to those who say "They still have to buy the new content" well duh, of course they would. WoW charges for its expansions after all. Fact is, with some grinding, everyone has access to tokens and can buy all the content, just a matter of choosing whether to spend time or money.
2) I am apprehensive on how the model is going to work with LOTRO, as, unlike DDO, it is not heavily instanced. I have my qualms about how seemless it will be, but I don't see the point in over reacting, making things up, and generally trashing the game without having all the facts.
Up to speed now?
@Zeowyrm: You are being very rude. I am simply offering my own opinion on a subject that means a lot to me, and just because it doesn't agree with your own opinion, does not make it any less valid.
[Mod edit]
Now I don't have any facts to back this up, but I'm guessing that on average, a subscriber will probably spend more every month on micro transactions in a game than they would if it was just a flat subscription fee, or otherwise developers wouldnt be making this switch.
I think you are wrong. They are banking on more people paying less than less people paying more. DDO works off the fact that most people would not pay a flat monthly fee to keep the game up, but a whole lot more people would come in and pay little bits here and there. Think of it this way 10 people paying $15 to get $150 or 150 peopley playing $1 equals $150. Turbine is banking that more people will be willing to pay that one time one dollar and maybe buy a little more over the course of a month to make it more profitable while costing each individual less than $15.
Way back when DDO went F2P there were some statistics out from Turbine that the average spent by players was $5 a month and buying all the content packs cost around $100. For a year of DDO it would be $160 on F2P and subs would be $180 roughly.
What part of the below confuses you?
In DDO, when P2P with subscription, the new class Monk was added at no additional charge or in game grind for subscribers. In DDO, when F2P hybrid, the new class Favored Soul was added and required being purchased in the cash shop or being unlocked by very long in game grind EVEN for VIP subscribers.
How is what Turbine did with their other P2P game gone hybrid F2P not fairly extrapolated to what will happen with LotRO when it goes F2p hybrid? Simply put, it is. In DDO now, as a VIP subscriber, you pay the same $$$ per month but do not get the same thing as you did under the old P2P system. Such will be the case in LotRO as well.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Ah in P2P DDO stuff had to be unlocked through grind before it went to F2P.
Posted by zeowyrm on 6/17/10 at 4:27:27 PM
I said nothing about your opinions "boy". If you have a problem with my post, the report button is at the top.
Done.
Not all stuff, but some. The example I think is most clear is the Monk class, the first and only class added to DDO when it was P2P. Monk was added and it took no unlock in game, you just fired up the game when the MOD was released and made a Monk - but in DDO F2p hybrid the same thing, Favored Soul (the first class added since going F2P) required purchase in the cash shop to unlock OR a very long in game grind, and the price of the unlock in the cash shop well exceeded the monthly allotment of Turbine points. So yes, in DDO before F2P they had stuff that was unlocked by gameplay (like Drow race or 32 point builds) but that stuff was added as kind of endgame prestige stuff. In F2P DDO though, all that stuff and more requires purchasing or grind even for paying subscribers (VIPs).
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
You know a person have no arguments left to say when they take a relaly tiny thing and blow it up as something huge.
Keep hating while the rest of us are having fun playing MMOs
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
A tiny thing? You mean showing without a doubt that as a subscriber under the new system you do not get the same as you did under the old system? Or do you mean proving the point I have been making all along that grinds will go up and you will have to pay more to get what you got before? Yeah, what am I thinking pointing out such little things as false statements by people on this topic.
The truth of the matter, big or small, is that DDO proves the things I am others have said about this model not being the 'same' for subscribers. And again, this is just the start - over time the incentive is for the grinds to get higher and higher and the sub to included less and less.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
You really havent proven anything, regardless of how much you think you have. The whole Monk being free, and then Favored Soul not being free is nothing but assumptions and wishful thinking. You have no "proof" that it would have been free if the game had stayed P2P, only an assumption based on what happened with the Monk. The majority of the time when a new class is added to an MMO, its part of an expansion which you have to pay for on top of your sub, very very few MMOs ever add things like new classes as simply a free addition to the game.
Warhammer Online as an example, did add 2 classes for free a couple months after launch, however these were classes that were supposed to be in the launch to begin with. However if the game had been more succesful and they were to add new races & classes afterwards, you can bet they wouldnt have just been free additions, they would have been part of an expansion which we would have needed to pay for. Most likely DDO was a similar situation, they added in the Monk after release, and had plans to add other classes such as Favored Soul as part of an expansion, but now that the game had gone F2P, there are no real "expansions" just small content updates that you pay for individually, including the new class. Reality is, if the game had not gone F2P, you would NOT have gotten the Favored Soul for free, but only as part of a paid expansion. Its not because of F2P that you suddenly needed to pay for it.
That would now be three times you seemed to have overlooked the question of which subscription MMOs offer free races and classes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
All of us here are giving out opinions which are at least partially based on assumptions and guesses on how this situation will end up. There is nothing wrong with giving out an opinion, that is what forums are often used for.
AgtSmith often makes two common statements (that I've picked out) with the Lotro F2P conversion.
1. That Lifetime and subscribers will not get getting the same things that they had under the old system.
My opinion is the the same as his (please don't flame based upon my gender assumption). I think it's most reasonable to assume that under the old system you could get 100% of whatever game item was introduced into the game without paying addition (per item) costs with the exception of expansion packs. This new system will have a cash shop and I'm sure that Turbine is planning on getting additional cash shop purchases from the VIP class players. There may be fiscally conservative (with regards to Turbine Points) VIPS that save their points for future expansion or content purchase items. However, most likely a significant portion of VIPS will spend those points on cosmetic and miscellaneous items and have to purchase additional points in excess of what would probably have been spent just buying the annual expansion pack. I'm certain that increased payments from current VIP players is a partial reason for the conversion. As a side issue I often wonder if they got burned with the lifetime subscriptions, there are so many of them (in my guild probably 80%) that it makes me wonder what portion of players in the game are regular paying subscribers. I seriously doubt that they were frugal and saved the bulk payments for future operations, they probably spent it fairly quickly.
2. That Turbine (and any F2P developer) will have an incentive to increase or produce additional grind in order to increase spending on cash store items.
My opinion on this is also in line with AgtSmith. There are already preview articles with sample store items and some of the purchase are for virtue trait increases. Currently you increase these through various deeds including slayer deeds which have you kill X number of critters for the trait increase. For the higher level deeds its something like 360 kills to finish the deed (could be more just going from memory). I find it extremely plausible that Turbine, due to financial incentives, could increase the number of kills per deed, or just increase the cap beyond the current level 10 in some future content release. This would very likely increase sales from players who would rather purchase the trait increase as opposed to putting in the time for the extra grind.
Regardless of where you stand on this conversion (pro or con) you should consider that both sides could be correct on some major points. Perhaps F2P for Lotro is the best way to get the game back on track (development wise). However, that doesn't mean that you have to sugar coat or not be open to the possibility that the company is more cash from the VIP class player (1) or that there will be some changes which are driven by financial incentives (2).
The bottom line for us debaters is that regardless of opinion this change is going through. The best we can hope for with regards to Lotro is that continued future development for long term players is a major factor in future content releases. Once again you may think that some of the the statements against F2P conversions are false (and some based upon fears are) but for the two I've mentioned above I know which side of the betting table I'd be on.
??? So showing how Turbine handled a new class before and after the change is not evidence of how this F2P hybrid model works? Sorry but that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It is precisely evidence that under the new model things that where free become restricted.
It also follows with logic and standard business motivation. If you monitize gameplay (advancement, acheivement, etc) then it logically follows that development will shift in a manner that is likely to increase revenue which means more restrictions on such things and more grinds - such is the basis of F2P.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
I am sorry you struggle with the obvious - TURBINE'S OTHER GAME (DDO) USING THIS F2P HYBRID MODEL SHOWS US WHAT I AM SAYING. BEFORE F2P NEW CLASSES WHERE INCLUDED WITHOUT EXTRA COST OR GRIND, AFTER F2P THE NEW CLASS WAS CASH SHOP OR UNLOCKED WITH LONG GRIND.
My god the obliviousness by the 'defenders' defies reason - to heck with what other games do look to Turbine's other F2P hybrid, it shows everything I am saying regarding this issue.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
As a defender of this hybrid payment model, I have to agree with the point you made. However, I think the point the other poster is making is:
In other, P2P games, they do not give classes/races for free. They're included with the purchase of an expansion, more often then not. Ultimately, they're saying that you always have to pay for these things, one way or another, regardless of P2P or F2P.