And that's not to say that people don't enjoy other things, or can't in the future. Why do you think people loved the first 6 months of SWG so much when it was so different from what WoW offers now? If anything, SWG felt a lot more like Ultima Online than it did EQ, and people were fine with that. Some of my fondest memories in MMOs came in that brief period before SOE ruined everything -- the Bestine/Anchorhead battles... the way the Devs would spawn AT-ATs and dropships to support player-run events... it was all very fluid and freeform, and it felt way, way more "real" than WoW ever has to me. SWG only fell from grace because SOE decided, upon seeing WoW's ballooning numbers, that the only way they could match it was to make their product more like the competition's... and it doomed SWG.
Will SW:TOR buck the design trend that WoW perpetuates? Almost certainly not... and every day that passes on these forums, where fanboys clap for every step that Bioware takes towards emulating Warcraft, is just more proof of that. But mark my words: the best way to beat Blizzard isn't to copy their game... because a WoW clone is hardly any better than WoW itself.
The straight shot to slaying the dragon lies in releasing a polished, wholly unique experience... and it seems unlikely that SW:TOR will be that at release. We should be mourning this fact, not applauding it."
Ugh...
SWG's changes had FAR less to do with WOW then they did the overall ego of SOE/Lucas Arts. You have to understand the pride of Lucas I think to really get what happened there. It's WAY less about WOW than most think...They had a SW license and average Sub numbers. So they were looking for a fix. The wanted to make the Game more appealing to the masses. And yes the CU brought a few WOW-like elements. And for quite a few SWG Players (me included) those changes were welcomed. But the numbers were still less than SOE/Lucas wanted because SWG was a niche Game from the get-go. The bosses at SOE and Lucas simply refused to embrace that fact and instead went for broke with the NGE...And they broke it alright...But Folks were quitting during Pre-CU, some came back for the CU then others quit because of the CU. Then of coarse about 50% or better quit for the NGE...Still more quit with the GCW, and so on and so on...My point is SWG was always a niche Game that had awesome potential as such...But it was never going to be a monster...Ever...It was too hard and too much of a grind for a lot of Folks...It was never going to be huge...
This explanation of impending doom for SWTOR, or comparing it to WOW, is all the same if you ask me...Just a bunch of whining and complaining about a Game no one has even sniffed yet...Play the damn Game when it comes out and if you don't like it don't Play it...It really is that simple...But assuming it's going to bomb, or that they are trying to copy WOW without even a Closed Beta yet is beyond ridiculous...It's just plain stupid...
And that's not to say that people don't enjoy other things, or can't in the future. Why do you think people loved the first 6 months of SWG so much when it was so different from what WoW offers now? If anything, SWG felt a lot more like Ultima Online than it did EQ, and people were fine with that. Some of my fondest memories in MMOs came in that brief period before SOE ruined everything -- the Bestine/Anchorhead battles... the way the Devs would spawn AT-ATs and dropships to support player-run events... it was all very fluid and freeform, and it felt way, way more "real" than WoW ever has to me. SWG only fell from grace because SOE decided, upon seeing WoW's ballooning numbers, that the only way they could match it was to make their product more like the competition's... and it doomed SWG.
Will SW:TOR buck the design trend that WoW perpetuates? Almost certainly not... and every day that passes on these forums, where fanboys clap for every step that Bioware takes towards emulating Warcraft, is just more proof of that. But mark my words: the best way to beat Blizzard isn't to copy their game... because a WoW clone is hardly any better than WoW itself.
The straight shot to slaying the dragon lies in releasing a polished, wholly unique experience... and it seems unlikely that SW:TOR will be that at release. We should be mourning this fact, not applauding it."
Ugh...
SWG's changes had FAR less to do with WOW then they did the overall ego of SOE/Lucas Arts. You have to understand the pride of Lucas I think to really get what happened there. It's WAY less about WOW than most think...They had a SW license and average Sub numbers. So they were looking for a fix. The wanted to make the Game more appealing to the masses. And yes the CU brought a few WOW-like elements. And for quite a few SWG Players (me included) those changes were welcomed. But the numbers were still less than SOE/Lucas wanted because SWG was a niche Game from the get-go. The bosses at SOE and Lucas simply refused to embrace that fact and instead went for broke with the NGE...And they broke it alright...But Folks were quitting during Pre-CU, some came back for the CU then others quit because of the CU. Then of coarse about 50% or better quit for the NGE...Still more quit with the GCW, and so on and so on...My point is SWG was always a niche Game that had awesome potential as such...But it was never going to be a monster...Ever...It was too hard and too much of a grind for a lot of Folks...It was never going to be huge...
This explanation of impending doom for SWTOR, or comparing it to WOW, is all the same if you ask me...Just a bunch of whining and complaining about a Game no one has even sniffed yet...Play the damn Game when it comes out and if you don't like it don't Play it...It really is that simple...But assuming it's going to bomb, or that they are trying to copy WOW without even a Closed Beta yet is beyond ridiculous...It's just plain stupid...
Well when developers themselves say a lot will be similar to WoW I don't think you need to wait for beta to figure that out. Im to lazy to search for the interview but I assure you if you try hard enough you will eventually find it.
Regarding SWG... what you call average sub numbers was actually a GREAT number until WoW came and set new standards. WoW in fact encouraged SOE/LA to make these changes. SWG was bugged indeed and a lot of things needed to be fixed but instead of fixing bugs for what was now patetic 300k loyal subs they decided to take a piece of pie from WoW.
I still recall an interview where SOE was well aware of losing a significant chunk of existing subs for CU/NGE but they still took their chances and miserably failed.
I agree with OP anyways, TOR will not be a new Wow. Blizzard and Bioware have walked a different path since the release of Diablo and Baldurs gate. Their games have similarities but still differs a lot.
This was a really great analogy, and I couldn't agree more.
I played SWG pre-cu and to me it wasn't as wonderful as others make it sound. Sure, it had a good crafting / economy synergy and wide open spaces to go running around in. But the lack of cohesion throughout the game made it feel like a mindless grind to get the ultimate tri-skill set. In typical "sandbox" fashion, if you don't like PVP then the gameplay was limited and got boring.
For me the reason was that SWG just didn't have an ongoing and progressive direction to it. You leveled to Master in one profession, relatively quickly. You then wondered "What should I do now?" so you dropped your skills to level up in a different profession.
I tried SWG-post CU and although it looked as if SOE had tried to put some cohesion into the game, they had only paid it lip-service. A long quest chain to try to tie it together made it look like a different kind of "boring" (from boredom due to lack of cohesion, to boredom due to lack of variety).
Now, had SOE actually paid attention to what WoW was doing and focused more on the storylines in the game, then perhaps they may have stood a chance at competing with Blizzard and other games. But in the end, they only put in the minimal amount in order to affect the change from skillbased to level based progression.
Now, SWTOR on the other hand focuses more on story. Which implies possibly that the level of quality exhibited in SWTOR may be more likened to WoW, than to the general PVE gamep[lay in SWG. Will the storyline be progressive? We don't know. Will there be in game events? We don't know. But at least Bioware are putting more emphasis on creating more immersion using tools such as storylines than SOE could ever do so. Coupled with familar concepts taken from previous MMOs along with their own implemented features, theres a good possibility that SWTOR will be a nice alternative for those no longer interested in Blizzards game. No guarantee of course. No one can know for sure right now just how good (or bad) the whole of SWTOR is.
The problem is that so far every game, including WoW, that followed the themepark model with guided story line quests became repetitve and boring. MMO has to be designed in a way that it lasts for years to come, well at least should be.
Traditional sandbox MMOs have theri flaws too so perhaps some kind of hybrid model might be the best. One where players can experience theri own unqiue adventures and at the same time have a well designed story line quests. Fact is however, with themepark MMOs all you have as the endgame content is PvP is repeatble raids which is not much of a difference comparing to a sandbox. TBH if you are that lucky to be around fun players engame in a sandbox can be extremely entertaining experience. Well I will repeat what many others have said, playing the original SWG (with all its flaws) was the best MMO experience I have ever had. I guess I was that lucky to share my virtual space with great community...
The problem is that so far every game, including WoW, that followed the themepark model with guided story line quests became repetitve and boring. MMO has to be designed in a way that it lasts for years to come, well at least should be. Traditional sandbox MMOs have theri flaws too so perhaps some kind of hybrid model might be the best. One where players can experience theri own unqiue adventures and at the same time have a well designed story line quests. Fact is however, with themepark MMOs all you have as the endgame content is PvP is repeatble raids which is not much of a difference comparing to a sandbox. TBH if you are that lucky to be around fun players engame in a sandbox can be extremely entertaining experience. Well I will repeat what many others have said, playing the original SWG (with all its flaws) was the best MMO experience I have ever had. I guess I was that lucky to share my virtual space with great community...
From the interviews at E3, that hybrid is exactly what BW is going for with TOR. Exploration that is rewarded with out having to quest. Huge chain quests that change the war effort on a planet. As two examples. We will have to toon in next year to see if they pull it off. But I like their chances as a gaming company.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
From the interviews at E3, that hybrid is exactly what BW is going for with TOR. Exploration that is rewarded with out having to quest. Huge chain quests that change the war effort on a planet. As two examples. We will have to toon in next year to see if they pull it off. But I like their chances as a gaming company.
If I recall correctly, Bioware said that they'll be using "phasing" in SWTOR. I could be wrong, but Blizzard did show how storylines can affect the environment for the individual. So in theory, that same process could actually apply to more than the individual player based on their actions and thus create the illusion of the environment changing due to events that take place and criteria that is met.
After watching so many MMO companies try and fail miserably, I've come to the conclusion that the fate of the MMO industry lies in the hands of the single player game manufacturers who have previously well know games in their portfolios and the financial backing to branch out into the MMO industry and make quality products. Blizzard did it, therefore Bioware has as much chance to get it right. Though even the best designers of MMO's can right royally screw it up. Just ask Brad McQuaid and Richard Garriott.
Why can't you guys just accept that MMO's are fundamentally crappy and always try to fit a certain image? Unless someone changes the foundation of their MMO, it's going to be another mindless copypasta monotone adventure with no aspects of actually role-playing. Same crap whether it's the godawful target/use skill game play or some action target/useskill game play. Same thing every game, Same discussions and fights over the same problems. Same cockmongling hype whenever a new MMO releases. It never changes. This is a moronic cycle.
I want goddamn bigass multiplayer without all the shit gameplay thrown in. I don't care if it's a lobby-based 10 player RPG. The reason I first liked MMOs was because of the shock of having so many people playing in one place, not because of questing or pvp or semi-decent gameplay. GIVE ME SOMETHING NEW INSTEAD OF THIS BIG-BUSINESS-MINDSET CRAP!!!!! =(
the only reason I give a enough of a rat's ass about this game to post on this same old site is because:
I won't be surprised if this game is crap too though. I'll stick to Bioware's singleplayer games if it does, and TOR better not eat into the development of their good upcoming games or I'll be incredibly sad. In the end I'm still hoping someone will make an immersing and/or very fun small/large multiplayer RPG without MMO gameplay! It's almost an untapped market thanks to MMO popularity. If it never happens then I'll just work towards getting into game developing some way, somehow.
Why can't you guys just accept that MMO's are fundamentally crappy and always try to fit a certain image? Unless someone changes the foundation of their MMO, it's going to be another mindless copypasta monotone adventure with no aspects of actually role-playing. Same crap whether it's the godawful target/use skill game play or some action target/useskill game play. Same thing every game, Same discussions and fights over the same problems. Same cockmongling hype whenever a new MMO releases. It never changes. This is a moronic cycle.
Let me ask you this: What do YOU class as role playing?
Please don't give me an answer that is geared towards sandbox designs for god sake. So far, the latest batch of "sandbox" games have been in worse state that their "themepark" counterparts.
copy and paste monotone? really? Well how would YOU change things and yet still appeal to an audience (not just YOU) who desire to see familiar elements in their games?
I want goddamn bigass multiplayer without all the shit gameplay thrown in. I don't care if it's a lobby-based 10 player RPG. The reason I first liked MMOs was because of the shock of having so many people playing in one place, not because of questing or pvp or semi-decent gameplay. GIVE ME SOMETHING NEW INSTEAD OF THIS BIG-BUSINESS-MINDSET CRAP!!!!! =(
Am I understanding you correctly? You said "I want a goddamn bigass multiplayer without all the shit gameplay thrown in"? And yet earlier you said you critisised games for having no role play features.
the only reason I give a enough of a rat's ass about this game to post on this same old site is because:
I won't be surprised if this game is crap too though. I'll stick to Bioware's singleplayer games if it does, and TOR better not eat into the development of their good upcoming games or I'll be incredibly sad.
What I don't get is that you posted how "Unless someone changes the foundation of their MMO, it's going to be another mindless copypasta monotone adventure with no aspects of actually role-playing" and yet you link an article by Bioware that shows that they are attempting to put the "RPG" element back into an MMO.
So what exactly are you getting at? Do you like the idea about more storylines and other RPG features in an MMO than what previous games have shown or not? Quite frankly I'm a little confused as to where you stand in this. Especially when you say.....
In the end I'm still hoping someone will make an immersing and/or very fun small/large multiplayer RPG without MMO gameplay!
erm.....so you want an MMO that isn't an MMO. Is that what you're saying? Perhaps the online lobbies for Counterstrike or Company of Heroes is more to your liking? Or maybe you can find lobbies for RPG games. It sounds like they are more "up your alley" than an MMORPG.
It's almost an untapped market thanks to MMO popularity. If it never happens then I'll just work towards getting into game developing some way, somehow.
I must ask you something, because quite frankly you've contradicted yourself so many times that I'm confused as to why you posted in the first place. You seem to want an online RPG that isn't an MMORPG, that doesn't have RPG elements in it but you agree with Biowares interview about putting RPG elements back into the MMO industry....
So, here are my questions:
Do you know exactly it is that you want? If so, can you perhaps provides some specifics, or just like throwing around ambiguous statements?
You really need to stop demanding for "SOMETHING NEW" and instead perhaps give the MMO industry a little more detail as to what exactly you want. The industry cannot read minds. And if they're anything like me, they sure as hell can't judge what you want from this post.
The MMO industry makes a guess and takes a chance based on research. But if people don't actually SAY what they want and just throw around stupidly ambiguous statements like "I WANT SOMETHING NEW!!" or "WHERE'S THE INNOVATION" then how can they possibly expect the industry to provide them with what they want?
As I haven't really played the game and don't feel enough has been released on it, it appears on the surface to be following the safe path set by WOW and a dozen other themepark games in terms of core game play and mechanics.
With the money being spent its understandable that the features have to cater to a broad player audience, just like WOW does and therefore the inevitable comparisions that are being made.
Perhaps the addition of a meaningful story line that somehow impacts the overall game world (really have to see this in action) will be a big enough change to make the game worthwhile and fun.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Call me strange but I play games to have fun and be entertained. WoW did that for me quite well and I look forward to SWTOR doing the same. I love a good story and for that I turn to the likes of Bioware, (or Pratchett, Cornwell and others)
The oft-touted 'player-driven' content usually manifests itself as 'nothing to do', 'Open world' often means 'nothing to see', 'Player driven economy' translates as 'outrageous gouging' and 'Classless Character Advancement' means 'One template to rule them all'
SWG is the most obvious case of how 'Player Driven Content' pans out. People often cite the NGE as the point that SWG died but it was dying long before then because it was bleeding subs at a steady rate. Between the lack of content and the holocron macroing you would never see anybody outside of Theed, Coronet or Mos Eisley and even there most were AFK.
The economy was shot to pieces by traders who would drive out any competition by undercutting then as soon as a monopoly was created the prices were hiked to levels that were beyond lunacy. As a result raw material prices rocketed and the traders jacked their prices again to keep their margins. Supply and demand may be real life forces but this wasn't real life.
As for the lauded skill system, yes it was new and bold but it was so flawed...only in SWG is it unwise to bring a gun to a knife fight. This reduced PvP to TKA/Fencer dodge stacker templates spamming knockdown/dizzy melee attacks at each other until one was incapped.
I even tried roleplaying to relieve the boredom but found that it mostly consisted being hit on by what effectively amounted to cyber-hookers offering their all for credits in the few active cantinas...as a family man, that didn't sit well.
The only bright star in that game was Jump To Lightspeed.
I applaud anyone who can genuinely make something of a sandbox MMO because they must either put a huge amount of effort in to get anything back or are just really easily pleased. I work long hours and I don't have that kind of energy to put in for such a minimal return.
Give me a 'WoW Clone' over that anyday...it'll be fun for me for far longer.
As I haven't really played the game and don't feel enough has been released on it, it appears on the surface to be following the safe path set by WOW and a dozen other themepark games in terms of core game play and mechanics.
With the money being spent its understandable that the features have to cater to a broad player audience, just like WOW does and therefore the inevitable comparisions that are being made.
Perhaps the addition of a meaningful story line that somehow impacts the overall game world (really have to see this in action) will be a big enough change to make the game worthwhile and fun.
Time will tell.
Agreed. Sometimes the changes that impact the most are the most subtle and widereaching ones. The additional storyline element mixed in with the traditional gameplay features may actually turn out to be a welcome addition to the mix. At which point, SWTOR may be recognised as another evolutionary stepping stone in the maturity of the industry. On the other hand, it may cause very little difference at all and therefore leave SWTOR looking like a plain "traditional" style land based MMO that brought nothing new to the mix. Even then, it has the potential to be successful. But until launch day arrives (or at least we get more information about it), as you say, time will tell.
Maughann, I completely agree. I played SWG Pre-Cu, and aside from the depth in the crafting / housing-shop / economic synergy I felt as if SWG was only half ready. And that was AFTER they put in speeder bikes. To me it lacked direction and cohesion and thus left me feeling like it was pointless playing after I hit the Master BH level.
What's funny is that even to this day, SWG is plagued by the very same issues it had pre-CU. Mobs firing through walls and being knocked down with no mobs near you doesn't exactly immerse me, I don't know about anyone else.
Obviously people had varying viewpoints about SWG. But to me, such "sandbox" games like SWG Pre-CU and the "holy'er-than-EQ" that is Eve Online offer nothing to MMO players except pvp environments for people to beat each other senseless in. And that's not what I personally look for in an MMO.
I feel your pain....I was a Master BH/Master Carbineer too...I climbed the Investigation tree before the XP boost . At least as a BH we always had the hunts. I used to go out of the way to make them fun. Working out where the mark was going by watching his track and getting there first and killing him in the newbie area outside the town. After that it went downhill.
I feel your pain....I was a Master BH/Master Carbineer too...I climbed the Investigation tree before the XP boost . At least as a BH we always had the hunts. I used to go out of the way to make them fun. Working out where the mark was going by watching his track and getting there first and killing him in the newbie area outside the town. After that it went downhill.
Exactly. Now THAT was a nice touch that the BH having their own quest system. So why couldn't other classes like Smugglers have their versions? THAT's the sort of thing that would have helped SWG to stop bleeding players.
Of course, we BH's had to also contend with additional gameplay elements such as the ultimate in npc camoflage:
Hiding INSIDE a tree so you couldn't shoot him . Still, gotta give the devs credits for trying at least.
I feel your pain....I was a Master BH/Master Carbineer too...I climbed the Investigation tree before the XP boost . At least as a BH we always had the hunts. I used to go out of the way to make them fun. Working out where the mark was going by watching his track and getting there first and killing him in the newbie area outside the town. After that it went downhill.
Exactly. Now THAT was a nice touch that the BH having their own quest system. So why couldn't other classes like Smugglers have their versions? THAT's the sort of thing that would have helped SWG to stop bleeding players.
Of course, we BH's had to also contend with additional gameplay elements such as the ultimate in npc camoflage:
Hiding INSIDE a tree so you couldn't shoot him . Still, gotta give the devs credits for trying at least.
Yeah, that was a real risk in letting the mark get to close to town too...if you didn't catch them and force them to spawn before they hit town they almost always ended up stuck in a building.
I feel your pain....I was a Master BH/Master Carbineer too...I climbed the Investigation tree before the XP boost . At least as a BH we always had the hunts. I used to go out of the way to make them fun. Working out where the mark was going by watching his track and getting there first and killing him in the newbie area outside the town. After that it went downhill.
Exactly. Now THAT was a nice touch that the BH having their own quest system. So why couldn't other classes like Smugglers have their versions? THAT's the sort of thing that would have helped SWG to stop bleeding players.
Of course, we BH's had to also contend with additional gameplay elements such as the ultimate in npc camoflage:
Hiding INSIDE a tree so you couldn't shoot him . Still, gotta give the devs credits for trying at least.
Yeah, that was a real risk in letting the mark get to close to town too...if you didn't catch them and force them to spawn before they hit town they almost always ended up stuck in a building.
Still, like I say, that was a nice touch in SWG. Now, if I recall correctly, what we DO know about SWTOR is that each class will have a tailored storyline to it. Which in a way mimicks what the intention was in SWG's BH missions and thus encourages people to roll different classes. It also echoes the different racial storylines in WoW too.
I hope both for Biowares sake and for the sake of the whole industry, that SWTOR does indeed become popular. Because it could then end up giving the industry a glimpse as to how to make an MMO right without being designed in Blizzards HQ, and thus provide the industry with the encouragement in needs to continue evolving.
As for the lauded skill system, yes it was new and bold but it was so flawed...only in SWG is it unwise to bring a gun to a knife fight. This reduced PvP to TKA/Fencer dodge stacker templates spamming knockdown/dizzy melee attacks at each other until one was incapped.
Wait just a second there, friend, you'll find you are quite incorrect here. This kind of principle is true lots of places:
Gotta love those "X game is like Y game" arguements. Nothing more than fanbois trying to defend their game because they're bored at work or can't login.
SWTOR isn't a "WoW Clone". Granted, it won't be completely different from WoW either. The greatest complement to a game is when another developer says "hey, I like that idea" and implements it. Now, granted, most of WoW's ideas aren't necessarily fresh ideas either. They're basic concepts that are needed. Minimaps, hotbars, ect. Hell, argueably, that don't really have anything universally fresh and new. They've merely borrowed something and built upon it. Take the queue from anywhere feature for battlegrounds. Warhammer had that first. WoW implemented it and built on it to included dungeons.
It doesn't matter in the end. SWTOR is going to release and take some of WoW's business. That is a good thing. We need competition in the MMO market. For a long time, it was only EQ. Then other MMOs came out and offered some competition. The competition at this time was great. However, once WoW was released, and they fixed their problems after release; the competition died/is dying. SWTOR is potentially the first real threat that WoW has seen. Granted, that is said about every potentially good game. It is just a matter of if Bioware can make good on what they want to do and not decide to drop certain classes, races, and cities out of the game at the last possible moment. (I'm not bittter...really)
I'm currently "playing" WoW to some extent as a distraction. I'm looking forward to both FF XIV and SWTOR.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
As for the lauded skill system, yes it was new and bold but it was so flawed...only in SWG is it unwise to bring a gun to a knife fight. This reduced PvP to TKA/Fencer dodge stacker templates spamming knockdown/dizzy melee attacks at each other until one was incapped.
Wait just a second there, friend, you'll find you are quite incorrect here. This kind of principle is true lots of places:
So what if is like WoW ?, they both are MMOs, they must have something in common, not because WoW is the best MMO but simply because they all share some features in common. People compare most MMOs with WoW because WoW is the most popular MMO today and some players don't know what MMOs are so we use WoW as reference because is very popular, for exmaple, I tell to my friend "Hey did you check out the new Star Wars game ?", he goes "No, what game ?", I go "You know, the MMO one", he goes "MMO ?", I go "Yeah, like WoW". What I am trying to say is that maybe for players like us that like MMOs is not like WoW, but for the rest of the players that play shooter, rts, console games is just a Star Wars game that is like WoW, of course by WoW they mean MMO, they are not saying we are going to see Arenas, same type of raids or a lich king, they just mean a game where you can see a bunch of people in one place and an action bar. So next time you see someone saying :is that the star wars game that looks like wow ?" don't rage on him, he just might no be into it as you, therefore he is ignorant about it.
So what if is like WoW ?, they both are MMOs, they must have something in common, not because WoW is the best MMO but simply because they all share some features in common. People compare most MMOs with WoW because WoW is the most popular MMO today and some players don't know what MMOs are so we use WoW as reference because is very popular, for exmaple, I tell to my friend "Hey did you check out the new Star Wars game ?", he goes "No, what game ?", I go "You know, the MMO one", he goes "MMO ?", I go "Yeah, like WoW". What I am trying to say is that maybe for players like us that like MMOs is not like WoW, but for the rest of the players that play shooter, rts, console games is just a Star Wars game that is like WoW, of course by WoW they mean MMO, they are not saying we are going to see Arenas, same type of raids or a lich king, they just mean a game where you can see a bunch of people in one place and an action bar. So next time you see someone saying :is that the star wars game that looks like wow ?" don't rage on him, he just might no be into it as you, therefore he is ignorant about it.
Part of the main thrust of my OP is that while it is like WoW in a lot of ways, focusing just on the similarities and accusing it of being a WoW-clone (as many on various forums have done) misses the important ways it is NOT like WoW. On a more personal level, I find a lot of the differences are in areas where I have grown to loathe how WoW works, such as how WoW doesn't give the player narrative power and the combat is over-specialized.
The other part is that some of the things that are the same and didn't have to be, are appropriate for the setting, such as a class system so you don't have almost everyone being force sensitive.
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
Whoa guy.. Sony created some of the biggest MMO titles. And it's safe to say Sony has more money to throw around than Blizzard has or will ever have.
What? Sony lost money on most of their MMOs. Most of them never got over 500,000 players. They didnt even make Everquest and that was their best MMO. Sony MMOs are basically dead. They have money because they arent just a game company. Why am I even responding to this I didnt mention anything about Sony in the first place, nor did I mention anything about how much money either Sony or Blizzard has.
Sony lost money on their MMO"s ? Who are you joking? Everquest its self cost 3 million to make in 1998 and by 2001 it already made them a billion dollars lol. SWG in its peak had 1.5 million players. Don't even get me started on eq2 because that game is a freaking cash cow lol ( eq2 is at a point now where their marketplace makes more money now then subs and all it sells is fluff appearance stuff) and then we haven't even gotten into freeRealms SoE's MEGA CASH COW.
Again your hate for SoE is obvious but they made ALOT of money off of their titles. please don't kid youself.
First off, Sony didn't make Everquest they bought it after the second expansion was out. I already said that was their best money maker. SWG did not ever have 1.5 million players. Good job pulling numbers from out of your ass though. EQ2 is considered a failure. It came out in the same year as WoW and never made it up to EQ1 numbers. It got to like 300,000. Im sure SOE made their money back in the long run and maybe even small profit. However compared to how much you can make from a truly successful MMO (world of warcraft) they are all failures.
Hate for SOE is universal. Anyone who played EQ before Sony took it over would know that. They screw up everything. They do NOT make ALOT off their MMOs. All their MMOs together dont come close to WoW. Sony is a horrible MMO company and should just stop with all their shovelware.
Comments
Ugh...
SWG's changes had FAR less to do with WOW then they did the overall ego of SOE/Lucas Arts. You have to understand the pride of Lucas I think to really get what happened there. It's WAY less about WOW than most think...They had a SW license and average Sub numbers. So they were looking for a fix. The wanted to make the Game more appealing to the masses. And yes the CU brought a few WOW-like elements. And for quite a few SWG Players (me included) those changes were welcomed. But the numbers were still less than SOE/Lucas wanted because SWG was a niche Game from the get-go. The bosses at SOE and Lucas simply refused to embrace that fact and instead went for broke with the NGE...And they broke it alright...But Folks were quitting during Pre-CU, some came back for the CU then others quit because of the CU. Then of coarse about 50% or better quit for the NGE...Still more quit with the GCW, and so on and so on...My point is SWG was always a niche Game that had awesome potential as such...But it was never going to be a monster...Ever...It was too hard and too much of a grind for a lot of Folks...It was never going to be huge...
This explanation of impending doom for SWTOR, or comparing it to WOW, is all the same if you ask me...Just a bunch of whining and complaining about a Game no one has even sniffed yet...Play the damn Game when it comes out and if you don't like it don't Play it...It really is that simple...But assuming it's going to bomb, or that they are trying to copy WOW without even a Closed Beta yet is beyond ridiculous...It's just plain stupid...
Well when developers themselves say a lot will be similar to WoW I don't think you need to wait for beta to figure that out. Im to lazy to search for the interview but I assure you if you try hard enough you will eventually find it.
Regarding SWG... what you call average sub numbers was actually a GREAT number until WoW came and set new standards. WoW in fact encouraged SOE/LA to make these changes. SWG was bugged indeed and a lot of things needed to be fixed but instead of fixing bugs for what was now patetic 300k loyal subs they decided to take a piece of pie from WoW.
I still recall an interview where SOE was well aware of losing a significant chunk of existing subs for CU/NGE but they still took their chances and miserably failed.
This was a really great analogy, and I couldn't agree more.
I played SWG pre-cu and to me it wasn't as wonderful as others make it sound. Sure, it had a good crafting / economy synergy and wide open spaces to go running around in. But the lack of cohesion throughout the game made it feel like a mindless grind to get the ultimate tri-skill set. In typical "sandbox" fashion, if you don't like PVP then the gameplay was limited and got boring.
For me the reason was that SWG just didn't have an ongoing and progressive direction to it. You leveled to Master in one profession, relatively quickly. You then wondered "What should I do now?" so you dropped your skills to level up in a different profession.
I tried SWG-post CU and although it looked as if SOE had tried to put some cohesion into the game, they had only paid it lip-service. A long quest chain to try to tie it together made it look like a different kind of "boring" (from boredom due to lack of cohesion, to boredom due to lack of variety).
Now, had SOE actually paid attention to what WoW was doing and focused more on the storylines in the game, then perhaps they may have stood a chance at competing with Blizzard and other games. But in the end, they only put in the minimal amount in order to affect the change from skillbased to level based progression.
Now, SWTOR on the other hand focuses more on story. Which implies possibly that the level of quality exhibited in SWTOR may be more likened to WoW, than to the general PVE gamep[lay in SWG. Will the storyline be progressive? We don't know. Will there be in game events? We don't know. But at least Bioware are putting more emphasis on creating more immersion using tools such as storylines than SOE could ever do so. Coupled with familar concepts taken from previous MMOs along with their own implemented features, theres a good possibility that SWTOR will be a nice alternative for those no longer interested in Blizzards game. No guarantee of course. No one can know for sure right now just how good (or bad) the whole of SWTOR is.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
The problem is that so far every game, including WoW, that followed the themepark model with guided story line quests became repetitve and boring. MMO has to be designed in a way that it lasts for years to come, well at least should be.
Traditional sandbox MMOs have theri flaws too so perhaps some kind of hybrid model might be the best. One where players can experience theri own unqiue adventures and at the same time have a well designed story line quests. Fact is however, with themepark MMOs all you have as the endgame content is PvP is repeatble raids which is not much of a difference comparing to a sandbox. TBH if you are that lucky to be around fun players engame in a sandbox can be extremely entertaining experience. Well I will repeat what many others have said, playing the original SWG (with all its flaws) was the best MMO experience I have ever had. I guess I was that lucky to share my virtual space with great community...
From the interviews at E3, that hybrid is exactly what BW is going for with TOR. Exploration that is rewarded with out having to quest. Huge chain quests that change the war effort on a planet. As two examples. We will have to toon in next year to see if they pull it off. But I like their chances as a gaming company.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
If I recall correctly, Bioware said that they'll be using "phasing" in SWTOR. I could be wrong, but Blizzard did show how storylines can affect the environment for the individual. So in theory, that same process could actually apply to more than the individual player based on their actions and thus create the illusion of the environment changing due to events that take place and criteria that is met.
After watching so many MMO companies try and fail miserably, I've come to the conclusion that the fate of the MMO industry lies in the hands of the single player game manufacturers who have previously well know games in their portfolios and the financial backing to branch out into the MMO industry and make quality products. Blizzard did it, therefore Bioware has as much chance to get it right. Though even the best designers of MMO's can right royally screw it up. Just ask Brad McQuaid and Richard Garriott.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Why can't you guys just accept that MMO's are fundamentally crappy and always try to fit a certain image? Unless someone changes the foundation of their MMO, it's going to be another mindless copypasta monotone adventure with no aspects of actually role-playing. Same crap whether it's the godawful target/use skill game play or some action target/useskill game play. Same thing every game, Same discussions and fights over the same problems. Same cockmongling hype whenever a new MMO releases. It never changes. This is a moronic cycle.
I want goddamn bigass multiplayer without all the shit gameplay thrown in. I don't care if it's a lobby-based 10 player RPG. The reason I first liked MMOs was because of the shock of having so many people playing in one place, not because of questing or pvp or semi-decent gameplay. GIVE ME SOMETHING NEW INSTEAD OF THIS BIG-BUSINESS-MINDSET CRAP!!!!! =(
the only reason I give a enough of a rat's ass about this game to post on this same old site is because:
http://news.filefront.com/old-republic-designer-says-mmos-suck/
I won't be surprised if this game is crap too though. I'll stick to Bioware's singleplayer games if it does, and TOR better not eat into the development of their good upcoming games or I'll be incredibly sad. In the end I'm still hoping someone will make an immersing and/or very fun small/large multiplayer RPG without MMO gameplay! It's almost an untapped market thanks to MMO popularity. If it never happens then I'll just work towards getting into game developing some way, somehow.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
As I haven't really played the game and don't feel enough has been released on it, it appears on the surface to be following the safe path set by WOW and a dozen other themepark games in terms of core game play and mechanics.
With the money being spent its understandable that the features have to cater to a broad player audience, just like WOW does and therefore the inevitable comparisions that are being made.
Perhaps the addition of a meaningful story line that somehow impacts the overall game world (really have to see this in action) will be a big enough change to make the game worthwhile and fun.
Time will tell.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Call me strange but I play games to have fun and be entertained. WoW did that for me quite well and I look forward to SWTOR doing the same. I love a good story and for that I turn to the likes of Bioware, (or Pratchett, Cornwell and others)
The oft-touted 'player-driven' content usually manifests itself as 'nothing to do', 'Open world' often means 'nothing to see', 'Player driven economy' translates as 'outrageous gouging' and 'Classless Character Advancement' means 'One template to rule them all'
SWG is the most obvious case of how 'Player Driven Content' pans out. People often cite the NGE as the point that SWG died but it was dying long before then because it was bleeding subs at a steady rate. Between the lack of content and the holocron macroing you would never see anybody outside of Theed, Coronet or Mos Eisley and even there most were AFK.
The economy was shot to pieces by traders who would drive out any competition by undercutting then as soon as a monopoly was created the prices were hiked to levels that were beyond lunacy. As a result raw material prices rocketed and the traders jacked their prices again to keep their margins. Supply and demand may be real life forces but this wasn't real life.
As for the lauded skill system, yes it was new and bold but it was so flawed...only in SWG is it unwise to bring a gun to a knife fight. This reduced PvP to TKA/Fencer dodge stacker templates spamming knockdown/dizzy melee attacks at each other until one was incapped.
I even tried roleplaying to relieve the boredom but found that it mostly consisted being hit on by what effectively amounted to cyber-hookers offering their all for credits in the few active cantinas...as a family man, that didn't sit well.
The only bright star in that game was Jump To Lightspeed.
I applaud anyone who can genuinely make something of a sandbox MMO because they must either put a huge amount of effort in to get anything back or are just really easily pleased. I work long hours and I don't have that kind of energy to put in for such a minimal return.
Give me a 'WoW Clone' over that anyday...it'll be fun for me for far longer.
Agreed. Sometimes the changes that impact the most are the most subtle and widereaching ones. The additional storyline element mixed in with the traditional gameplay features may actually turn out to be a welcome addition to the mix. At which point, SWTOR may be recognised as another evolutionary stepping stone in the maturity of the industry. On the other hand, it may cause very little difference at all and therefore leave SWTOR looking like a plain "traditional" style land based MMO that brought nothing new to the mix. Even then, it has the potential to be successful. But until launch day arrives (or at least we get more information about it), as you say, time will tell.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Maughann, I completely agree. I played SWG Pre-Cu, and aside from the depth in the crafting / housing-shop / economic synergy I felt as if SWG was only half ready. And that was AFTER they put in speeder bikes. To me it lacked direction and cohesion and thus left me feeling like it was pointless playing after I hit the Master BH level.
What's funny is that even to this day, SWG is plagued by the very same issues it had pre-CU. Mobs firing through walls and being knocked down with no mobs near you doesn't exactly immerse me, I don't know about anyone else.
Obviously people had varying viewpoints about SWG. But to me, such "sandbox" games like SWG Pre-CU and the "holy'er-than-EQ" that is Eve Online offer nothing to MMO players except pvp environments for people to beat each other senseless in. And that's not what I personally look for in an MMO.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I feel your pain....I was a Master BH/Master Carbineer too...I climbed the Investigation tree before the XP boost . At least as a BH we always had the hunts. I used to go out of the way to make them fun. Working out where the mark was going by watching his track and getting there first and killing him in the newbie area outside the town. After that it went downhill.
Exactly. Now THAT was a nice touch that the BH having their own quest system. So why couldn't other classes like Smugglers have their versions? THAT's the sort of thing that would have helped SWG to stop bleeding players.
Of course, we BH's had to also contend with additional gameplay elements such as the ultimate in npc camoflage:
Hiding INSIDE a tree so you couldn't shoot him . Still, gotta give the devs credits for trying at least.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Yeah, that was a real risk in letting the mark get to close to town too...if you didn't catch them and force them to spawn before they hit town they almost always ended up stuck in a building.
Still, like I say, that was a nice touch in SWG. Now, if I recall correctly, what we DO know about SWTOR is that each class will have a tailored storyline to it. Which in a way mimicks what the intention was in SWG's BH missions and thus encourages people to roll different classes. It also echoes the different racial storylines in WoW too.
I hope both for Biowares sake and for the sake of the whole industry, that SWTOR does indeed become popular. Because it could then end up giving the industry a glimpse as to how to make an MMO right without being designed in Blizzards HQ, and thus provide the industry with the encouragement in needs to continue evolving.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Wait just a second there, friend, you'll find you are quite incorrect here. This kind of principle is true lots of places:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InverseLawOfUtilityAndLethality
and
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverBringAKnifeToAFistFight
Gotta love those "X game is like Y game" arguements. Nothing more than fanbois trying to defend their game because they're bored at work or can't login.
SWTOR isn't a "WoW Clone". Granted, it won't be completely different from WoW either. The greatest complement to a game is when another developer says "hey, I like that idea" and implements it. Now, granted, most of WoW's ideas aren't necessarily fresh ideas either. They're basic concepts that are needed. Minimaps, hotbars, ect. Hell, argueably, that don't really have anything universally fresh and new. They've merely borrowed something and built upon it. Take the queue from anywhere feature for battlegrounds. Warhammer had that first. WoW implemented it and built on it to included dungeons.
It doesn't matter in the end. SWTOR is going to release and take some of WoW's business. That is a good thing. We need competition in the MMO market. For a long time, it was only EQ. Then other MMOs came out and offered some competition. The competition at this time was great. However, once WoW was released, and they fixed their problems after release; the competition died/is dying. SWTOR is potentially the first real threat that WoW has seen. Granted, that is said about every potentially good game. It is just a matter of if Bioware can make good on what they want to do and not decide to drop certain classes, races, and cities out of the game at the last possible moment. (I'm not bittter...really)
I'm currently "playing" WoW to some extent as a distraction. I'm looking forward to both FF XIV and SWTOR.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Touche!!
Hehe, very good
So what if is like WoW ?, they both are MMOs, they must have something in common, not because WoW is the best MMO but simply because they all share some features in common. People compare most MMOs with WoW because WoW is the most popular MMO today and some players don't know what MMOs are so we use WoW as reference because is very popular, for exmaple, I tell to my friend "Hey did you check out the new Star Wars game ?", he goes "No, what game ?", I go "You know, the MMO one", he goes "MMO ?", I go "Yeah, like WoW". What I am trying to say is that maybe for players like us that like MMOs is not like WoW, but for the rest of the players that play shooter, rts, console games is just a Star Wars game that is like WoW, of course by WoW they mean MMO, they are not saying we are going to see Arenas, same type of raids or a lich king, they just mean a game where you can see a bunch of people in one place and an action bar. So next time you see someone saying :is that the star wars game that looks like wow ?" don't rage on him, he just might no be into it as you, therefore he is ignorant about it.
I'd like to point out an article Jon Wood made last year. Scroll down and Read #1.
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/3092/page/2
With that being said, WoW is a clone of everything and we need to quit playing and get out more!
Just kidding....
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Part of the main thrust of my OP is that while it is like WoW in a lot of ways, focusing just on the similarities and accusing it of being a WoW-clone (as many on various forums have done) misses the important ways it is NOT like WoW. On a more personal level, I find a lot of the differences are in areas where I have grown to loathe how WoW works, such as how WoW doesn't give the player narrative power and the combat is over-specialized.
The other part is that some of the things that are the same and didn't have to be, are appropriate for the setting, such as a class system so you don't have almost everyone being force sensitive.
Its funny how that article is the link in my sig
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
First off, Sony didn't make Everquest they bought it after the second expansion was out. I already said that was their best money maker. SWG did not ever have 1.5 million players. Good job pulling numbers from out of your ass though. EQ2 is considered a failure. It came out in the same year as WoW and never made it up to EQ1 numbers. It got to like 300,000. Im sure SOE made their money back in the long run and maybe even small profit. However compared to how much you can make from a truly successful MMO (world of warcraft) they are all failures.
Hate for SOE is universal. Anyone who played EQ before Sony took it over would know that. They screw up everything. They do NOT make ALOT off their MMOs. All their MMOs together dont come close to WoW. Sony is a horrible MMO company and should just stop with all their shovelware.