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The problem with "Solo-friendly"
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The problem with too group friendly is that some people who don't want to group will eventually do it for the shiny rewards. and these are not the kind of people you want to be grouped with. Just look at any group-only content in WoW, many of the players doing them do not belong in groups yet they do it . Why? because you can't kill the lich king on your own. So really , balance is needed.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Yes...I think of that all the time "EVERYTIME" I see these posts. I still play DDO and still like it but as you refer to, a lot of the quests espeacially the high level quests; are immpossible to run alone. So for all of those that continuously whine about having the option to progress in a game solo...give DDO a try. You HAVE to group.
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
Absolutely right. WoW is one of the most group-based games that has existed IMO. Yes, DF does make it seem like there aren't people that sometimes, but the fact is that you are playing with sentient people.
Funny, I never had to group. Then again, I never felt the need to replay any of the dungeons, especially on epic mode, so I never had to get into a group to defeat it. That's why they retrofit the game to make soloing every single dungeon in the game possible.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Eh no. That is the biggest lie in this entire argument. The solo player will scream bloody murder on the web and in game about every single bit of group content and demand it be made solo.
If the solo player was content, there wouldn't be an issue. The solo player would just pick the existing solo content in a game and be content. This would mean in Lotro, skipping the epic books. Not meant for solo. End of story.
But solo and group players are constantly at odds with each other.
The point of this thread is NOT to discuss solo vs group but to suggest that a game cannot please both at the same time with the same content.
Imagine going on camp and putting up a campfire and roasting potatoes on it. The solo player hates that, would argue the potatoes are under cooked and it all takes longer then microwaving it and you are out in the night air etc etc.
The group player would not even see that the quality of the potatoes matter.
It is the journey vs arriving. What matters to you? In your leisure time?
And you cannot do both at the same time. Would you put business travellers on a slowboat to China? Or put cruise lovers on the concorde?
Going camping is slow, inconvenient, filled with mosquito bites and rough ground. Yes it is far easier and more comfortable staying at home and microwaving a frozen dinner. But I don't think you will be having the same experience.
MMO's like Lotro try to make both groups of people happy with the same content, and it ain't working. There are millions of MMO players out there, why must games attempt to attract every single one of them when a group of 1 million very specific players would be more then most games ever achieve?
I think part of the reasons so many games fail to attract a significant audience (enough to pay for the game and turn a profit) is that they fail to be the right game for group X. Instead most people currently seem to play their MMO because there is nothing better out. That is a terrible attitude if you think about it. Understandable for players but game companies should be deeply worried about it. As you can see in subscription figures, every time a new game comes out, you loose half your audience and they might never come back. That is no way to run a business.
TARGET your audience. Group or Solo but not both at the same time. I think this discussion proofs that the two just don't mix and match.
Actually there are far far more threads talking about the evil of soloing and how soloing is killing the genre than there are talking about the evils of grouping.
Now since the soloers are not complaining about soloing and there are more threads talking bad about soloing then grouping, it's logical that there are far more groupers (at least in this forum) complaining about soloing than there are soloers complaining about grouping.
Off the top of my head I can't think of a single thread made by a pro-soloer talking about the evils of grouping. I'm sure there are some I just can't remember any. But sheesh there are hundreds of threads decrying soloing.
So no I don't think it's a myth. Groupers complain about soloers more than soloers complain about groupers. If a game doesn't have enough soloing the soloers just leave and play a different game which leaves the developer to.... I'll let you fill in the rest.
Venge Sunsoar
How is soloing killing the genre? Pretty sure the genre is way bigger than it was pre-WoW, which I would say was the first "soloable" leveling experience. If it was "killing" the genre, then a genre that had less than 3 million wouldn't be over 20 million today.
Edit: And that's just P2P MMOs...
Now youve done it. Youve let the cat out of the bag. Now everyone knows that when us solo guys leave a forced grouping game its part of a vast conspiracy to destroy forced grouping and get devs to make soloable games.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
This attitude happen in most mmo's im affraid you help someone and not even a thx and you dont see him anymore.
I still do it from time to time i cant help myself nature of the beats hehe.
But ive experience it also in my favorite game Darkfall helping players and without a word they leave if you dont even excist man these kind of people sucks.
On one guy i helped but later i got my revenge, ganked him took alot of his stuff few mounts he nerdrage why i did this told him why but he did not undertsand lol what an idiot:P
Solo can be a harsh way of living hehe.
Im most of time helpfull but if people dont show any appreciation it will take a while before i help others sometimes weeks months before im over such behavior hehe.
Im off soloing again cya:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
The problem with MMOs is that avatars keep progressing. There is a *very* small window in their game lifetime when they are able to do that particular lvl 25 quest, as they are mostly useless before lvl 22 and won't get anything after lvl 28.
So, while playing Counterstrike with other people is as easy as doubleclicking on a server from a list and just shooting at stuff, finding a party for a certain quest/instance in a MMO is often very tricky, you have to find the same people that have the same quests and are around the same level as you are. It can be terribly hard to do in sparsely populated servers (not every MMO is Eve Online... in most MMOs the whole population is distributed among several -or several dozens of- small words, holding no more than a few thousands players at once).
So, the necessity for soloable content arises, even for games with good party-making tools (I.E: on LOTRO there is a panel that tells you, for each quest you have, how many people with the same quest are around, with buttons to contact and invite them: i mostly find it empty now as i progress through late-lower-to-middle level content, so even a really good and almost completely automated tool is not enough!)
The whole "If you want to play an MMO then get Solo play out of yer head" argument is really a dead rotting horse that's been beaten enough.
Back when EQ was top dog, it had a platform to stand on. As we can see, it's really worked out for them subscription wise and now they even have mercenaries you hire because people REALLY like playing solo sometimes.
I admit, some of my best times online have been in groups, but there is enough in todays games to accomodate all styles of play. Any game company that tries to force players into one style of play or the other is literally shooting themselves in the foot and their game will most likely fail.
The key to todays success with MMO's (success being LOTS of subscriptions) is no longer quality, but accessability for as many players as possible. This is what WoW did right with it's generous hardware requirements and ease of play.
Whilst I do agree that accessibility and variance of playstyles in an MMO help a lot in making a game successful, I think the MMO industry has hit a plateau in that the playerbase is no longer satisfied with JUST having multiple playstyles in an MMO. It is now calling for more quality and greater depth in the games too.
However, before MMO's can accomplish that goal, many of them fail to meet even the most basic needs of its playerbase. But unfortunately, that doesn't stop them from releasing their games in such poor states though.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I don't understand what your point is.
You're upset if everyone doesn't play WoW with you?
It will make you angry if someone installs a game that you dont' like and plays it?
What exactly are you trying to say?
Yeah, the editor here sucks, sometimes it just doesn't let you do things. It happens.
And DDO has these things called hirelings where you can go hire any class you need to follow you around and do whatever you need to do. You never need to group, you can just use NPCs.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The bottom line and possibly the ONLY FACT you'll see in these forums is that EVERYONE enjoys different things.
In direct regards to the OP all i can say is this, to each their own gamestyle/playstyle. A SMART developer would make MMO's to encompass all different playstyles. Before any of the groupies out there turn round and say "whats the point of that?, why should solo players be able to get the good stuff even if they decide not to do it in a group?" as i know someone likely will do, i say this to them particularly, why should those of us who enjoy solo as well as group not be able to get the same item/buff/whatever without a group?. it's quite simply because people who enjoy grouping will only tolerate a games design where everyone has to do it their way, the same could be said of some solo players but you don't often hear them complaining about the example i mentioned above. People will always try to enforce their playstyle onto others without bothering to understand that everyone is different and enjoy different thigns.
I myself still play SWG after over 4 years in it, i've grouped, i solo a lot, i sit about and just chat with friends, i help other players out and i craft. do i enjoy playing solo more than grouped? yes. do i need to group in order to get certain things done? yes. do i always group to get them done or do i try it solo when i feel like it? depends on my mood and what i feel like doing at the time. These questions although worded differently or thought differently define every player in every MMO. they do what they do because they enjoy it and it's what they feel like doing at the time.
Have i noticed a difference in MMO's in the last couple of years? yes i have, do i like what i see? not really which is why i've stuck with a game that i enjoy. Do i think MMO's are starting to aim for the solo player more than usual these days? no i don't and the reason is simple, just because developers are incorporating solo content into games these days doesn't mean it's aimed directly at solo players, those that think so are seeing things in tunnel vision to be honest with you. Take a game update for example, said game update makes certain MOB's harder to kill, does that mean they're trying to get people to group up more? no, just means you have to work harder and plan things out as well as act on instinct. same on the reverse side, update makes something easier to kill, doesn't mean they're making it more solo friendly, just means they're making changes that will either help current gameplay or pave the way ready for a future update that will add features or something.
MMO's lost part of their name a long time ago when developers started concentrating on end game content more than anything else, it lost the RPG side of things. Everyone too interested in reaching max level and getting what they call "uber gear" instead of actually enjoying the game and seeing all there is to it. these people remind me of the players in FPS games onine, they want to "be the best" by reaching max rank and have all the weapons so they can easilly get bored of the game and after a long time of whining about things eventually leaving (temporary or permanantly) when they get what they want from the devs.
Final word on things, everyone is different, everyone enjoys different things, games are not being made for the solo player, they are being made with content that should be in from the start.
Actually you are quite wrong. Look over on any given soe gameplay forum to see loooots of examples of groupers crapping on the virtual backs of soloers.
People complain about solo quest lines, acting like they are a waste of their time, solo mobs wasting their time, etc....
If anything the group orientated folks are the weakest link because they need others to make their gameplay complete.
Sad fact really that groupers tend to be loaded with hangers-on types and loafing do the minimum but gain the maximum reward. Sad really.
A good soloer relys only on himself to survive, to thrive and win. A soloer has to be constantly on his toes or take a dirt nap.
If a soloer has to afk, they take a big chance of getting eaten, whilst groupers have built in baby sitters.
What's even weaker than groupers are raiders. Now this is a bunch of people who ride the coat tails of a few people who work their butts off and reap the rewards.
Please continue your discusssion here. Thanks.
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