I hate the cash shop in F2P just as much...but I'm already paying...why is what I pay not good enough?
Like everything else in life you got to pay that little bit extra for that special something .
you can't have it both ways. Either the items don't impact play or they're extra special.
The point you're missing is depsite some peoples' claim that because the items presumably don't affect combat or leveling, they don't count. But that mistakenly assumes that combat is the end-all/be-all of these games, and being mmoRPG's, it's clearly not the case. Being mmorpgs, non-combat items DO affect the gameplay of the people who are involved in that aspect of the game. The real argument being made by people who say 'it's only vanity items' is "Well they're not charging for the stuff I care about so who cares?" Well clearly since we're talking about rpg's and also given our capitialist society and the for profit motive of the companies inolved it's sheer ignorance to believe these companies have chosen to sell something that has no value to the player.
RPer and to me it still does no bother me, but I guess that is just my opinion.
Well then there is the answer to your question. Its a matter of opinion. And it can't be explained any better than you can explain why it doesn't bother you.
i know why it does not bother me, just wanted to see the opinions of other mmorpg players
they are all valid In their own ways, I have not right in telling people who is right or wrong if they have an opinion
Vanity items I honestly don't mind. The items that are purely and strictly fluff. But even the minor items frequent in most shops like the XP increase items and such I won't support.
I hate the cash shop in F2P just as much...but I'm already paying...why is what I pay not good enough?
Like everything else in life you got to pay that little bit extra for that special something .
you can't have it both ways. Either the items don't impact play or they're extra special.
The point you're missing is depsite some peoples' claim that because the items presumably don't affect combat or leveling, they don't count. But that mistakenly assumes that combat is the end-all/be-all of these games, and being mmoRPG's, it's clearly not the case. Being mmorpgs, non-combat items DO affect the gameplay of the people who are involved in that aspect of the game. The real argument being made by people who say 'it's only vanity items' is "Well they're not charging for the stuff I care about so who cares?" Well clearly since we're talking about rpg's and also given our capitialist society and the for profit motive of the companies inolved it's sheer ignorance to believe these companies have chosen to sell something that has no value to the player.
RPer and to me it still does no bother me, but I guess that is just my opinion.
Well then there is the answer to your question. Its a matter of opinion. And it can't be explained any better than you can explain why it doesn't bother you.
Obviously they have value in the monetary sense. They however do not effect the actual mechanics of gameplay. Those who place emphasis on the cosmetic portion of the game will buy them - that's who they are being marketed to. The devs weren't going to make those special items as part of the main game in the first place and then just decide to withhold them and toss them in a cash shop. They are having a team create those items separately from the rest of the game's development for the sole purpose of offering them to players that are interested. It's much like some games that offer small adventure packs with extra quests and dungeons for people who are interested. You don't see too many threads with people going ballistic over that.
If I pay a monthly fee I want 100% of the game!!!.
Not fare! I dont want to pay extra for new clothes, there has to be a way to acquire them through the game.
Mostly just those 2 with some "I feel", "I Think", "its my opinion that" crap that they can writte. Personaly is another one.
Personaly I don't care if a game is P2P, F2P, B2P, and any other 2P combination people come up with, if its fun I play, it may have a cash shop/item shop/mall/etc/etc I will keep playing.
The companies have a Terms of Agreement that says they can do with the game and its content what they want, by accepting it you OK that and form a contract.
Grow up, nothing is how you want it to be. The company wont miss you but you will miss them.
Yet another thread from someone who feels the need to post troll bait.
Why is it that no one is allowed to dislike cash shops or the F2P model without being a "hater"? Should we just call all the pro-CS people greedy, selfish moneybags now too?
I can sum up my opinion very easily; I view online gaming as a *service*, I am willing to pay a recurring fee to a company to provide that service. I expect that fee to cover all aspects of that service, from server hardware to content development. I wish to be able to access as much of that service as my time and abilities during the period that I am paying for allow. I do not like and will not pay to be microbilled for every aspect of that service which can be seperated out into a different "billable" element or pay for tiny aspects of it at a time.
Beyond that, ponder this: Where does it all end? After all, if it is all just pixels and what anyone else has shouldn't matter to you, why could I not make a game and at launch just auction off the right to play the King/Emporer/President or whatever? Buy the game and start as a serf, buy the game and pay me another hundred bucks and you get to be a warrior...500 to be a baron..1k for king of the server! Want a castle that no one else can have, just win the bidding! Need a sword to slay that dragon, why just hit the CS icon and go buy a sword of dragon slaying!
Because it's only a flick of a switch to start offering items that offer more than just a cosmetic advantage.
It's not the being of F2P and cash shop as it is the temptation for the developer to possibly go further with the cash shop and leave the normal paying customers with little to be desired.
This is it in a nutshell. I agree totally and have seen this happen time and time again. It is happening with LOTRO right now with overpowered potions being sold in the store and other items.
Beyond that, ponder this: Where does it all end? After all, if it is all just pixels and what anyone else has shouldn't matter to you, why could I not make a game and at launch just auction off the right to play the King/Emporer/President or whatever? Buy the game and start as a serf, buy the game and pay me another hundred bucks and you get to be a warrior...500 to be a baron..1k for king of the server! Want a castle that no one else can have, just win the bidding! Need a sword to slay that dragon, why just hit the CS icon and go buy a sword of dragon slaying!
As I see it: Why would I pay monthly fees for a F2P MMO?.
I rather pay 20 bucks a month instead, it is really not the money but I feel that some of the publishing companies just try to get every last cent out of me and that is just greedy.
I don't see how any P2P game can survive in the long run against games like GW2 when you pay more for less. Sure if you offer the best thing out there you can charge more than the competition but in my wordl you have either a monthly fee or a cashshop.
To force players first to buy the game and expansions, then pay monthly fees and add an itemshop were you more or less need items from to be in the lead is more or less a robbery. 20 bucks or even 25 a month all included is fair but demanding people paying more and more fees all the time suck.
How much should people pay to play? 20 bucks? 30? 45? Mixing the payment methods like this is just to take as much as any fool might possibly pay and in the end will this only lead to the victory of B2P and F2P games. There is no need to pay 15 extra bucks a month for nothing.
I hate the cash shop in F2P just as much...but I'm already paying...why is what I pay not good enough?
Like everything else in life you got to pay that little bit extra for that special something .
you can't have it both ways. Either the items don't impact play or they're extra special.
The point you're missing is depsite some peoples' claim that because the items presumably don't affect combat or leveling, they don't count. But that mistakenly assumes that combat is the end-all/be-all of these games, and being mmoRPG's, it's clearly not the case. Being mmorpgs, non-combat items DO affect the gameplay of the people who are involved in that aspect of the game. The real argument being made by people who say 'it's only vanity items' is "Well they're not charging for the stuff I care about so who cares?" Well clearly since we're talking about rpg's and also given our capitialist society and the for profit motive of the companies inolved it's sheer ignorance to believe these companies have chosen to sell something that has no value to the player.
RPer and to me it still does no bother me, but I guess that is just my opinion.
Well then there is the answer to your question. Its a matter of opinion. And it can't be explained any better than you can explain why it doesn't bother you.
Obviously they have value in the monetary sense. They however do not effect the actual mechanics of gameplay. Those who place emphasis on the cosmetic portion of the game will buy them - that's who they are being marketed to. The devs weren't going to make those special items as part of the main game in the first place and then just decide to withhold them and toss them in a cash shop. They are having a team create those items separately from the rest of the game's development for the sole purpose of offering them to players that are interested. It's much like some games that offer small adventure packs with extra quests and dungeons for people who are interested. You don't see too many threads with people going ballistic over that.
They may not effect the mechanics of YOUR gameplay but nonetheless they have value and they affect the gameplay of those who see it differently.
I hate the cash shop in F2P just as much...but I'm already paying...why is what I pay not good enough?
Like everything else in life you got to pay that little bit extra for that special something .
you can't have it both ways. Either the items don't impact play or they're extra special.
The point you're missing is depsite some peoples' claim that because the items presumably don't affect combat or leveling, they don't count. But that mistakenly assumes that combat is the end-all/be-all of these games, and being mmoRPG's, it's clearly not the case. Being mmorpgs, non-combat items DO affect the gameplay of the people who are involved in that aspect of the game. The real argument being made by people who say 'it's only vanity items' is "Well they're not charging for the stuff I care about so who cares?" Well clearly since we're talking about rpg's and also given our capitialist society and the for profit motive of the companies inolved it's sheer ignorance to believe these companies have chosen to sell something that has no value to the player.
RPer and to me it still does no bother me, but I guess that is just my opinion.
Well then there is the answer to your question. Its a matter of opinion. And it can't be explained any better than you can explain why it doesn't bother you.
Obviously they have value in the monetary sense. They however do not effect the actual mechanics of gameplay. Those who place emphasis on the cosmetic portion of the game will buy them - that's who they are being marketed to. The devs weren't going to make those special items as part of the main game in the first place and then just decide to withhold them and toss them in a cash shop. They are having a team create those items separately from the rest of the game's development for the sole purpose of offering them to players that are interested. It's much like some games that offer small adventure packs with extra quests and dungeons for people who are interested. You don't see too many threads with people going ballistic over that.
They may not effect the mechanics of YOUR gameplay but nonetheless they have value and they affect the gameplay of those who see it differently.
By mechanics, I'm referring to things like the combat system, etc - things that the character has their avatar actually navigate content with - anything where quantitative balance is an issue. I was not referring to the overall game experience, which you'd have realized if you'd read past the second sentence of my post.
I hate the cash shop in F2P just as much...but I'm already paying...why is what I pay not good enough?
Like everything else in life you got to pay that little bit extra for that special something .
you can't have it both ways. Either the items don't impact play or they're extra special.
The point you're missing is depsite some peoples' claim that because the items presumably don't affect combat or leveling, they don't count. But that mistakenly assumes that combat is the end-all/be-all of these games, and being mmoRPG's, it's clearly not the case. Being mmorpgs, non-combat items DO affect the gameplay of the people who are involved in that aspect of the game. The real argument being made by people who say 'it's only vanity items' is "Well they're not charging for the stuff I care about so who cares?" Well clearly since we're talking about rpg's and also given our capitialist society and the for profit motive of the companies inolved it's sheer ignorance to believe these companies have chosen to sell something that has no value to the player.
RPer and to me it still does no bother me, but I guess that is just my opinion.
Well then there is the answer to your question. Its a matter of opinion. And it can't be explained any better than you can explain why it doesn't bother you.
Obviously they have value in the monetary sense. They however do not effect the actual mechanics of gameplay. Those who place emphasis on the cosmetic portion of the game will buy them - that's who they are being marketed to. The devs weren't going to make those special items as part of the main game in the first place and then just decide to withhold them and toss them in a cash shop. They are having a team create those items separately from the rest of the game's development for the sole purpose of offering them to players that are interested. It's much like some games that offer small adventure packs with extra quests and dungeons for people who are interested. You don't see too many threads with people going ballistic over that.
They may not effect the mechanics of YOUR gameplay but nonetheless they have value and they affect the gameplay of those who see it differently.
By mechanics, I'm referring to things like the combat system, etc - things that the character has their avatar actually navigate content with - anything where quantitative balance is an issue. I was not referring to the overall game experience, which you'd have realized if you'd read past the second sentence of my post.
I'm aware of what you're referring to. You've drawn a line and said these things count, those things don't. But for people who play the game differently than you that line is arbitrary and meaningless.
I hate the cash shop in F2P just as much...but I'm already paying...why is what I pay not good enough?
Like everything else in life you got to pay that little bit extra for that special something .
you can't have it both ways. Either the items don't impact play or they're extra special.
The point you're missing is depsite some peoples' claim that because the items presumably don't affect combat or leveling, they don't count. But that mistakenly assumes that combat is the end-all/be-all of these games, and being mmoRPG's, it's clearly not the case. Being mmorpgs, non-combat items DO affect the gameplay of the people who are involved in that aspect of the game. The real argument being made by people who say 'it's only vanity items' is "Well they're not charging for the stuff I care about so who cares?" Well clearly since we're talking about rpg's and also given our capitialist society and the for profit motive of the companies inolved it's sheer ignorance to believe these companies have chosen to sell something that has no value to the player.
RPer and to me it still does no bother me, but I guess that is just my opinion.
Well then there is the answer to your question. Its a matter of opinion. And it can't be explained any better than you can explain why it doesn't bother you.
Obviously they have value in the monetary sense. They however do not effect the actual mechanics of gameplay. Those who place emphasis on the cosmetic portion of the game will buy them - that's who they are being marketed to. The devs weren't going to make those special items as part of the main game in the first place and then just decide to withhold them and toss them in a cash shop. They are having a team create those items separately from the rest of the game's development for the sole purpose of offering them to players that are interested. It's much like some games that offer small adventure packs with extra quests and dungeons for people who are interested. You don't see too many threads with people going ballistic over that.
They may not effect the mechanics of YOUR gameplay but nonetheless they have value and they affect the gameplay of those who see it differently.
Just throwing my support in behind dhayes's argument. A lot of people don't seem to understand that combat is not the entire point of MMOs for a lot of people. Why should those people have to pay more to get full enjoyment of the game?
This argument has always been a 'not in my back yard' issue. All the people that are fine with it aren't actually 'fine' they just don't care at all since it doesn't affect what they view as the core gameplay. This kind of apathy is exactly what will lead to an escalation of this kind of thing in MMOs. There willcome a point when ignoring this issue will come back to bite you...
I hate the cash shop in F2P just as much...but I'm already paying...why is what I pay not good enough?
Like everything else in life you got to pay that little bit extra for that special something .
you can't have it both ways. Either the items don't impact play or they're extra special.
The point you're missing is depsite some peoples' claim that because the items presumably don't affect combat or leveling, they don't count. But that mistakenly assumes that combat is the end-all/be-all of these games, and being mmoRPG's, it's clearly not the case. Being mmorpgs, non-combat items DO affect the gameplay of the people who are involved in that aspect of the game. The real argument being made by people who say 'it's only vanity items' is "Well they're not charging for the stuff I care about so who cares?" Well clearly since we're talking about rpg's and also given our capitialist society and the for profit motive of the companies inolved it's sheer ignorance to believe these companies have chosen to sell something that has no value to the player.
RPer and to me it still does no bother me, but I guess that is just my opinion.
Well then there is the answer to your question. Its a matter of opinion. And it can't be explained any better than you can explain why it doesn't bother you.
Obviously they have value in the monetary sense. They however do not effect the actual mechanics of gameplay. Those who place emphasis on the cosmetic portion of the game will buy them - that's who they are being marketed to. The devs weren't going to make those special items as part of the main game in the first place and then just decide to withhold them and toss them in a cash shop. They are having a team create those items separately from the rest of the game's development for the sole purpose of offering them to players that are interested. It's much like some games that offer small adventure packs with extra quests and dungeons for people who are interested. You don't see too many threads with people going ballistic over that.
They may not effect the mechanics of YOUR gameplay but nonetheless they have value and they affect the gameplay of those who see it differently.
By mechanics, I'm referring to things like the combat system, etc - things that the character has their avatar actually navigate content with - anything where quantitative balance is an issue. I was not referring to the overall game experience, which you'd have realized if you'd read past the second sentence of my post.
I'm aware of what you're referring to. You've drawn a line and said these things count, those things don't. But for people who play the game differently than you that line is arbitrary and meaningless.
You are confusing my argument with someone elses's, I'm afraid. I said no such thing. I said that any game data and content that's packaged and sold separately, is not something that was originally going to be in the game. It's extra - so you pay extra for it. Just like you would an expansion pack.
Furthermore, they tend to make cash shops with cosmetic items only, because a perceived imbalance in the quantitative portion of the game tends to have much more dire consequences for player retention than a perceived imbalance in the qualititative (or more accurately, the aesthetic) portion. That's not to say one portion shouldn't matter to an individual player.
Because some people like to play for those vanity items. /thread.
Except that if you played the same game by the same dev and that dev decided against a cash shop - no one would ever get those vanity items in any fashion.
Sub only: you get access to what comes with the game.
Sub + cash shop: You get access to what comes with the game, plus some items (buy paying extra) that would not have otherwise existed had there not been a cash shop.
They develop those separate items purely to place them in the cash shop. They would not have put them in the game. That's my point.
To someone who doesn't care about the cosmetic portion of the game - cash shops (without stat changing items) don't matter except maybe to benefit them by giving the dev more cash to encourage more content for the game.
To someone who does care about the cosmetic portion of the game - they now have more options than they otherwise would have had with a sub only game. If they don't care enough to pay the extra, they are unaffected.
If by the logic some people are arguing - all expansion backs, adventure backs, etc should also be free to the player with no additional charge. That'd be great, but I don't see it happening because it would be far harder to make a profitable mmo that way.
If P2P+Cash shop models offer straight vanity items, I don't see how they are forcing anybody to pay extra money to buy anything nor is it effecting their(whiners) gameplay. This is what the OP is about.
Don't derail this shit into "because they will end up selling power gaining items" or "they are one step away" just to suit your shitty ass argument.
This isn't about games with cash shops that sell things "need" to have to be in the lead.
This is about P2P+CS models that want to and will strictly sell vanity items in their cash shop.
I'm all against "I don't want to pay to win", but this isn't about that factor.
It's about people bitching about how if a P2P+CS model game decides to sell pure vanity items it ends up effecting their gameplay.
It fucking doesn't.
Infact, doesn't it help your gameplay? Aren't these people who buy vanity items putting extra money ontop of their sub if they choose to look different? Whether they buy once, twice or many, this would most likely end up going expansions and whatever as so many people tend to believe.
If they buy, they will look different, they might change server, sex or name. Whatever.
Are they getting extra stats(in whatever) and such that you can't get unless you buy? No.
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
I hate the cash shop in F2P just as much...but I'm already paying...why is what I pay not good enough?
Like everything else in life you got to pay that little bit extra for that special something .
you can't have it both ways. Either the items don't impact play or they're extra special.
The point you're missing is depsite some peoples' claim that because the items presumably don't affect combat or leveling, they don't count. But that mistakenly assumes that combat is the end-all/be-all of these games, and being mmoRPG's, it's clearly not the case. Being mmorpgs, non-combat items DO affect the gameplay of the people who are involved in that aspect of the game. The real argument being made by people who say 'it's only vanity items' is "Well they're not charging for the stuff I care about so who cares?" Well clearly since we're talking about rpg's and also given our capitialist society and the for profit motive of the companies inolved it's sheer ignorance to believe these companies have chosen to sell something that has no value to the player.
RPer and to me it still does no bother me, but I guess that is just my opinion.
Well then there is the answer to your question. Its a matter of opinion. And it can't be explained any better than you can explain why it doesn't bother you.
Obviously they have value in the monetary sense. They however do not effect the actual mechanics of gameplay. Those who place emphasis on the cosmetic portion of the game will buy them - that's who they are being marketed to. The devs weren't going to make those special items as part of the main game in the first place and then just decide to withhold them and toss them in a cash shop. They are having a team create those items separately from the rest of the game's development for the sole purpose of offering them to players that are interested. It's much like some games that offer small adventure packs with extra quests and dungeons for people who are interested. You don't see too many threads with people going ballistic over that.
They may not effect the mechanics of YOUR gameplay but nonetheless they have value and they affect the gameplay of those who see it differently.
By mechanics, I'm referring to things like the combat system, etc - things that the character has their avatar actually navigate content with - anything where quantitative balance is an issue. I was not referring to the overall game experience, which you'd have realized if you'd read past the second sentence of my post.
I'm aware of what you're referring to. You've drawn a line and said these things count, those things don't. But for people who play the game differently than you that line is arbitrary and meaningless.
You are confusing my argument with someone elses's, I'm afraid. I said no such thing. I said that any game data and content that's packaged and sold separately, is not something that was originally going to be in the game. It's extra - so you pay extra for it. Just like you would an expansion pack.
Furthermore, they tend to make cash shops with cosmetic items only, because a perceived imbalance in the quantitative portion of the game tends to have much more dire consequences for player retention than a perceived imbalance in the qualititative (or more accurately, the aesthetic) portion. That's not to say one portion shouldn't matter to an individual player.
That is exactly what you're saying. This content matters, that content doesn't. Are combatants asked to pay for the inveitable and ongoing changes they make to 'mechanics'? No.
Futhermore, this is a fallacy promoted by the game publishers. They inevitably DO put items into cash shops that affect 'mechanics' after they've gained support by promising or insinuating that they would only stick to 'vanity' items.
I have no problem with F2P MMORPG with of course CS because I only spend cash when I need to. Now as of right now I am playing NEO online, I have only paid 10USD for newbie package 5 buffs (exp 20%, Drop rate 25%, bank storage, bag slots, and a stone that allow me to port to any mark spot on the map that I've created.) that last for 30days+ extra free bag slot by way of quest granted me 37days of bag slots, great deal! I understand why most hate F2P, because the F2P mmorpg looks fucking generic and plain and they wonder where the money they have been spending is going, yes I wonder alot.... no wait, the money is going to new cash shop items and the next f2p mmorpg.
That is exactly what you're saying. This content matters, that content doesn't.
Now you're just trying too hard to cram words in my mouth.
Are combatants asked to pay for the inveitable and ongoing changes they make to 'mechanics'? No.
Actually, they are. Everyone pays for the ongoing changes in mechanics via the subscription fee. Combat-oriented players are asked to pay for additional combat content via adventure packs or expansion packs.
Futhermore, this is a fallacy promoted by the game publishers. They inevitably DO put items into cash shops that affect 'mechanics' after they've gained support by promising or insinuating that they would only stick to 'vanity' items.
Please look up the definition of the word 'fallacy' before using it. You used a fallacy yourself in the following sentence - I've already refuted that particular argument earlier in the thread. You have no evidence that the next dev that comes out with a sub+ cash shop game will start with vanity only but eventually move to non-vanity items.
you pay to play and then pay to play agen if ther just changeing looks its not bad but theres a lot of +xp or gold/wot the money in the game is itemes and itemes you cant get from playing i like the eve plexs system you can buy them or you can play and get them with isk(the money of the game)
Because anyone who isnt slavering for corporate cock knows its a total ripoff. You paid for the development of those vanity items with your subscription, which you are now being asked to pay for again...
Besides the fact that its never JUST vanity items, and it always quickly becomes more than that. Additionally, the vanity items are usually massively overpriced (see $25 reskinned sparklepony)
That is a very easy and seemingly logically sound argument to make. However, in truth you have no idea what funds and resources were used to develop the item shop content, nor do you know how much were needed. Also, we have no basis for saying that the items will escalate from cosmetic to useful once a company starts developing for an item shop. No reputable, P2P MMOG company has yet made that mistake, and I seriously doubt we will ever see in happen from major developers. Yes, the namby-pamby F2P game companies will always sell "game-changing" items in their item shops however, they don't count... yes it theoretically could happen, but I find it highly unlikely.
Cryptic anyone?
I did say "reputable" there, so that covers that...
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
To be honest I enjoy the vanity items in games. It adds a little more excitement to the game for me. What I don't like is that most games I've played have crappy looking gear or only a few cool looking sets of gear. Why play an mmorpg just to go kill things and socialize about killing things? For me vanity items add a new dimesion of play.
I play pen and paper rpg's and I enjoy building/creating a character with personality. I enjoy creating a character image as well. Image and personality are core concepts in rpg's. I've read a lot of people saying that fluff items don't matter. They do matter to some people. For me, the fluff helps create character/world emersion. I don't mind paying for the items if the game is F2P. However, sub +cs models encourage the developers to slack off on their artistic design, only to create the cool stuff later for a premium price. I'm not a fan of supporting that behavior. As such, I don't play those games.
I also believe that people who think your sub isn't paying for the development of those vanity items are quite naive. It is a business after all. They aren't making these developers make these items in their off time. Why?, you ask. The simple reason is this: why pay more people to make these items (which are very easy to make), when you can make somebody already on your bank roll to make these items. It just makes more business sense. Even if they do hire more people or have them make the items in off time, the naive part is thinking the budget for those items doesn't come from the subs.
When did the consumer start berating other consumers for trying to get their money's worth? It's supposed to be the companies making excuses like "you're only paying for access", "this was developed extra without dipping into sub profits", etc. Nowadays you've got all these people bickering back and forth and most defend the companies on this topic. If everybody just came together and tried to stop sub +cs (even people who don't care), it would be to the benefit of every consumer/gamer. I think it's about time gamers start demanding more for your money.
These are just my opinions. I'm not here to bash anybody or start a debate. You asked for opinions and you got mine. In the end, each person has their own playstyle and preferences for what keeps them playing. Support what you like and don't support what you don't like. It's that simple.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Haters? Nah. Just people who smell a scam and are trying to convince the victims not to fund it.
The issue is simple - everything in the game matters to everyone. You are not playing a single-player game where your character has no effect on others - even something as insignificant as a costume piece CAN affect other people's gameplay. Case in point - City of Heroes has player-run and funded costume contests all the time. How does someone buying a special costume piece NOT affect the other people in the contest? MMOs are social environments - accept that what you do matters.
The scam part is, once you get ONE person buying something, everyone else has to start buying to keep up, or fall behind. Hey look, I got a sparkle pony! So what, you say, it's no faster than the best regular mount. The BEST REGULAR MOUNT, which took how long to get in regular play? So, you can just buy your way out of the game's designed gameplay progression and get something that others have played days or weeks for, and maybe were a little proud of achieving.
And oh looky, now the sparkle ponyFLIES TOO lol.
That's the part where microtransactions turn evil. Once you let the game company get your subscription PLUS MORE MONEY from you, they are not going to say "Oh cool, that's enough money, we can stop now". The suits will jump on the concept and force the developers to find more things to sell you for more money - not because it makes a better game, but solely out of greed for the money.
The part that makes me lol is the lies - "We need the money to fund more development!". BULLCRAP. Unless you see red ink on their statements, the only way a game company needs that money for development is if they are taking the money from the subscriptions that should go to development and doing something else with it - like putting it into the net profit column so the stock goes up and the suits' stock options are worth more money. In other words, redirecting it in a way that lets them personally profit from it without being charged with embezzlement, and then trying to get you to replace that money in exchange for something that "doesn't matter".
What a scam. Please don't give game companies excuses to charge you more money for something you've already bought and paid for. It just won't work out well.
Don't know when you last played wow... But as of now, Mounts themselves cost a petty amount of money (which can be earned without necessary grind - unlike vanilla wow, in which you had to), and the Mount skills cost much more, which if you want to ride the sparkle pony, you have to learn anyways. The advantage is so... insignificant, the only element it adds to the game is Cosmetic.
Anyways, the only thing I've seen in "reputable" P2P item shops that I question are probably the exp potions, and even then, these games have been out long enough for people with alt to just use em for faster leveling.
Again, nothing is set on stone... what are they using the extra millions for? who knows, but if it benefits the company, then the only thing that it can affect is the game itself, for better or worse... meh...
Comments
i know why it does not bother me, just wanted to see the opinions of other mmorpg players
they are all valid In their own ways, I have not right in telling people who is right or wrong if they have an opinion
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
Vanity items I honestly don't mind. The items that are purely and strictly fluff. But even the minor items frequent in most shops like the XP increase items and such I won't support.
Obviously they have value in the monetary sense. They however do not effect the actual mechanics of gameplay. Those who place emphasis on the cosmetic portion of the game will buy them - that's who they are being marketed to. The devs weren't going to make those special items as part of the main game in the first place and then just decide to withhold them and toss them in a cash shop. They are having a team create those items separately from the rest of the game's development for the sole purpose of offering them to players that are interested. It's much like some games that offer small adventure packs with extra quests and dungeons for people who are interested. You don't see too many threads with people going ballistic over that.
Quotes worded different:
If I pay a monthly fee I want 100% of the game!!!.
Not fare! I dont want to pay extra for new clothes, there has to be a way to acquire them through the game.
Mostly just those 2 with some "I feel", "I Think", "its my opinion that" crap that they can writte. Personaly is another one.
Personaly I don't care if a game is P2P, F2P, B2P, and any other 2P combination people come up with, if its fun I play, it may have a cash shop/item shop/mall/etc/etc I will keep playing.
The companies have a Terms of Agreement that says they can do with the game and its content what they want, by accepting it you OK that and form a contract.
Grow up, nothing is how you want it to be. The company wont miss you but you will miss them.
Yet another thread from someone who feels the need to post troll bait.
Why is it that no one is allowed to dislike cash shops or the F2P model without being a "hater"? Should we just call all the pro-CS people greedy, selfish moneybags now too?
I can sum up my opinion very easily; I view online gaming as a *service*, I am willing to pay a recurring fee to a company to provide that service. I expect that fee to cover all aspects of that service, from server hardware to content development. I wish to be able to access as much of that service as my time and abilities during the period that I am paying for allow. I do not like and will not pay to be microbilled for every aspect of that service which can be seperated out into a different "billable" element or pay for tiny aspects of it at a time.
Beyond that, ponder this: Where does it all end? After all, if it is all just pixels and what anyone else has shouldn't matter to you, why could I not make a game and at launch just auction off the right to play the King/Emporer/President or whatever? Buy the game and start as a serf, buy the game and pay me another hundred bucks and you get to be a warrior...500 to be a baron..1k for king of the server! Want a castle that no one else can have, just win the bidding! Need a sword to slay that dragon, why just hit the CS icon and go buy a sword of dragon slaying!
This is it in a nutshell. I agree totally and have seen this happen time and time again. It is happening with LOTRO right now with overpowered potions being sold in the store and other items.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
As I see it: Why would I pay monthly fees for a F2P MMO?.
I rather pay 20 bucks a month instead, it is really not the money but I feel that some of the publishing companies just try to get every last cent out of me and that is just greedy.
I don't see how any P2P game can survive in the long run against games like GW2 when you pay more for less. Sure if you offer the best thing out there you can charge more than the competition but in my wordl you have either a monthly fee or a cashshop.
To force players first to buy the game and expansions, then pay monthly fees and add an itemshop were you more or less need items from to be in the lead is more or less a robbery. 20 bucks or even 25 a month all included is fair but demanding people paying more and more fees all the time suck.
How much should people pay to play? 20 bucks? 30? 45? Mixing the payment methods like this is just to take as much as any fool might possibly pay and in the end will this only lead to the victory of B2P and F2P games. There is no need to pay 15 extra bucks a month for nothing.
They may not effect the mechanics of YOUR gameplay but nonetheless they have value and they affect the gameplay of those who see it differently.
By mechanics, I'm referring to things like the combat system, etc - things that the character has their avatar actually navigate content with - anything where quantitative balance is an issue. I was not referring to the overall game experience, which you'd have realized if you'd read past the second sentence of my post.
I'm aware of what you're referring to. You've drawn a line and said these things count, those things don't. But for people who play the game differently than you that line is arbitrary and meaningless.
Just throwing my support in behind dhayes's argument. A lot of people don't seem to understand that combat is not the entire point of MMOs for a lot of people. Why should those people have to pay more to get full enjoyment of the game?
This argument has always been a 'not in my back yard' issue. All the people that are fine with it aren't actually 'fine' they just don't care at all since it doesn't affect what they view as the core gameplay. This kind of apathy is exactly what will lead to an escalation of this kind of thing in MMOs. There will come a point when ignoring this issue will come back to bite you...
You are confusing my argument with someone elses's, I'm afraid. I said no such thing. I said that any game data and content that's packaged and sold separately, is not something that was originally going to be in the game. It's extra - so you pay extra for it. Just like you would an expansion pack.
Furthermore, they tend to make cash shops with cosmetic items only, because a perceived imbalance in the quantitative portion of the game tends to have much more dire consequences for player retention than a perceived imbalance in the qualititative (or more accurately, the aesthetic) portion. That's not to say one portion shouldn't matter to an individual player.
Because some people like to play for those vanity items. /thread.
Except that if you played the same game by the same dev and that dev decided against a cash shop - no one would ever get those vanity items in any fashion.
Sub only: you get access to what comes with the game.
Sub + cash shop: You get access to what comes with the game, plus some items (buy paying extra) that would not have otherwise existed had there not been a cash shop.
They develop those separate items purely to place them in the cash shop. They would not have put them in the game. That's my point.
To someone who doesn't care about the cosmetic portion of the game - cash shops (without stat changing items) don't matter except maybe to benefit them by giving the dev more cash to encourage more content for the game.
To someone who does care about the cosmetic portion of the game - they now have more options than they otherwise would have had with a sub only game. If they don't care enough to pay the extra, they are unaffected.
If by the logic some people are arguing - all expansion backs, adventure backs, etc should also be free to the player with no additional charge. That'd be great, but I don't see it happening because it would be far harder to make a profitable mmo that way.
Sorry, what?
If P2P+Cash shop models offer straight vanity items, I don't see how they are forcing anybody to pay extra money to buy anything nor is it effecting their(whiners) gameplay. This is what the OP is about.
Don't derail this shit into "because they will end up selling power gaining items" or "they are one step away" just to suit your shitty ass argument.
This isn't about games with cash shops that sell things "need" to have to be in the lead.
This is about P2P+CS models that want to and will strictly sell vanity items in their cash shop.
I'm all against "I don't want to pay to win", but this isn't about that factor.
It's about people bitching about how if a P2P+CS model game decides to sell pure vanity items it ends up effecting their gameplay.
It fucking doesn't.
Infact, doesn't it help your gameplay? Aren't these people who buy vanity items putting extra money ontop of their sub if they choose to look different? Whether they buy once, twice or many, this would most likely end up going expansions and whatever as so many people tend to believe.
If they buy, they will look different, they might change server, sex or name. Whatever.
Are they getting extra stats(in whatever) and such that you can't get unless you buy? No.
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
That is exactly what you're saying. This content matters, that content doesn't. Are combatants asked to pay for the inveitable and ongoing changes they make to 'mechanics'? No.
Futhermore, this is a fallacy promoted by the game publishers. They inevitably DO put items into cash shops that affect 'mechanics' after they've gained support by promising or insinuating that they would only stick to 'vanity' items.
I have no problem with F2P MMORPG with of course CS because I only spend cash when I need to. Now as of right now I am playing NEO online, I have only paid 10USD for newbie package 5 buffs (exp 20%, Drop rate 25%, bank storage, bag slots, and a stone that allow me to port to any mark spot on the map that I've created.) that last for 30days+ extra free bag slot by way of quest granted me 37days of bag slots, great deal! I understand why most hate F2P, because the F2P mmorpg looks fucking generic and plain and they wonder where the money they have been spending is going, yes I wonder alot.... no wait, the money is going to new cash shop items and the next f2p mmorpg.
you pay to play and then pay to play agen if ther just changeing looks its not bad but theres a lot of +xp or gold/wot the money in the game is itemes and itemes you cant get from playing i like the eve plexs system you can buy them or you can play and get them with isk(the money of the game)
I did say "reputable" there, so that covers that...
-------------------------
"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
Who else is left? :P
To OP:
To be honest I enjoy the vanity items in games. It adds a little more excitement to the game for me. What I don't like is that most games I've played have crappy looking gear or only a few cool looking sets of gear. Why play an mmorpg just to go kill things and socialize about killing things? For me vanity items add a new dimesion of play.
I play pen and paper rpg's and I enjoy building/creating a character with personality. I enjoy creating a character image as well. Image and personality are core concepts in rpg's. I've read a lot of people saying that fluff items don't matter. They do matter to some people. For me, the fluff helps create character/world emersion. I don't mind paying for the items if the game is F2P. However, sub +cs models encourage the developers to slack off on their artistic design, only to create the cool stuff later for a premium price. I'm not a fan of supporting that behavior. As such, I don't play those games.
I also believe that people who think your sub isn't paying for the development of those vanity items are quite naive. It is a business after all. They aren't making these developers make these items in their off time. Why?, you ask. The simple reason is this: why pay more people to make these items (which are very easy to make), when you can make somebody already on your bank roll to make these items. It just makes more business sense. Even if they do hire more people or have them make the items in off time, the naive part is thinking the budget for those items doesn't come from the subs.
When did the consumer start berating other consumers for trying to get their money's worth? It's supposed to be the companies making excuses like "you're only paying for access", "this was developed extra without dipping into sub profits", etc. Nowadays you've got all these people bickering back and forth and most defend the companies on this topic. If everybody just came together and tried to stop sub +cs (even people who don't care), it would be to the benefit of every consumer/gamer. I think it's about time gamers start demanding more for your money.
These are just my opinions. I'm not here to bash anybody or start a debate. You asked for opinions and you got mine. In the end, each person has their own playstyle and preferences for what keeps them playing. Support what you like and don't support what you don't like. It's that simple.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Don't know when you last played wow... But as of now, Mounts themselves cost a petty amount of money (which can be earned without necessary grind - unlike vanilla wow, in which you had to), and the Mount skills cost much more, which if you want to ride the sparkle pony, you have to learn anyways. The advantage is so... insignificant, the only element it adds to the game is Cosmetic.
Anyways, the only thing I've seen in "reputable" P2P item shops that I question are probably the exp potions, and even then, these games have been out long enough for people with alt to just use em for faster leveling.
Again, nothing is set on stone... what are they using the extra millions for? who knows, but if it benefits the company, then the only thing that it can affect is the game itself, for better or worse... meh...