I guess the outrage over false information and speculation proves the "skinner box" theory. Then again, what can we expect with all of the "cash cow strategy" MMO's out today. They've been rewarding the mice every time they press the lever that they no longer know how to act when they get the shock.
This is a VERY well written article! It was very well researched and I'm kind of surprised to see an article of this calibre and integrity on MMORPG.com I'm ignoring the post trolls for this comment.
Well I never played final fantasy, that's a game my 21 year old loves so much. I cant tell you how many different versions we have for the ps2 over the years. i will say she never played the online version.
However I have to comment on the fatigue system. Other games have had it. lets go over the list of what I know.
SWG had it back in the day before the nge. You would get battle fatigue, you wanted it fixed go watch a dancer or park yourself afk in a club.
EQ2 has it its called vitality, you run out of vitality you don't get bonus xp until you go play other characters, or your a lucky 5 year vet and you can claim your prize to refill your vitality to 100%
Wow did have it, you wanted to fix it log out at night inside a pub, or a city like stormwind.
Lotro has it, you want to get rested xp, find somebody with radiance like elrond or gandalf and log out besides them to help build your rested xp, or buy it in the coming store.
So its not something totally new, however I have to say if they put it in there needs to be a way like the other games I have listed to help reverse the fatigue conditions.
Originally posted by Vryheid If people are too stupid to figure out that grinding one class endlessly IS NOT THE PROPER WAY TO PLAY THIS GAME then they really need to go back to WoW.
This.
If you play a single class only your character will be so gimped that no one in their right mind will allow you to join their group.
I was REALLY REALLY exciting when I first heard FFXIV was being planned. I thought I loved FFXI even if it was 100% hardcore oriented I'd love a new generation FF MMO too.
Then I got into beta
As stated one terrible game design concept after another. Parts of the game can be enjoyable but over all.. the experience is just bogged down by a shitload of control issues.
As for the fatigue/surplus. No game does that. The moron above me is citing off games that use BONUS exp systems which is in fact a reverse of what SE is doing.
The last time I can honestly remember a game using a fatigue system for experience was in text based muds, games like Gemstone 3 and Rragonrealms. So it's not even anything new.
In fact nothing in FFXIV was new or innovative. Nothing aside from the graphics support a single notion that FFXIV is a next gen mmo
All the people saying this is a good idea are taking the stance of "well that means you're supposed to work on multiple jobs/skill at a time"
Where as FFXIV specifically stated this "fatigue system" is a reward to casuals.
You idiots don't quite get that FFXIV was originally intended to be more casual than FFXI. However every system in place is counter-productive to casuals and every other system they put in between those is counter-productive to hardcore gamers.
I don't have enough self-hate to play FF14. FF11 was absurdly group oriented when I played it, and it REQUIRED tons of time to make any progress. Sounds like they now want to punish you for finally finding that group to play with...
Designer 1: "How can we milk the players for longer sub times without actually putting in more content?"
Designer 2: "We go old school EQ1 on them and cockblock them..."
Designer 1: "We've done that."
Designer 2: "... let me finish. We cockblock them ALL THE TIME not just at the end game. Instead of making hell levels only, we make hell levels AND force them to not play after a certain amount of xp is gained in a week, that way ... ... It'll take 13.5 months for even the most hard core person to reach max level even if played constantly!"
Designer 1: "BRILLIANT! Those suckers who love Justin Beiber hairstyles on their male characters with their giant flaming... er... swords.... will drink this right up!"
LMAO........HAHA......HOHO
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
How is it that so many seem to still think the system is base on the amount of time played, when it's clearly based off of a set amount of xp that the average player could gain in 1 hour grind session multiplied by 8. Meaning you could play at a normal pace and never see the end of those 8 levels of normal xp. Considering travel, getting a group together, sorting out what leves your group is gonna tackle plus the fact that the fatiuge slowly decreases when you're not gaining xp, only botters are gonna have to worry about reaching the limit in a balanced game.
Honestly, how many of you can say you've grinded xp from log in to log out on a play session in any MMO?
I think it all comes down to this: Are they going to gain or lose more subscribers because of this featured system?
I personally think that they're going to lose a lot more. I can't think of many people who would see this system featured and say "hey, that's an awesome feature, I'm going to buy this game now because of it".
I do not see why there is such drama. I merely play the games as designed and if I don't like most of the design decisions I chalk it up to "it's not for me". Personally I don't see this system affecting me much, and I do not mind if physical level exp came to a grinding halt so long as I can progress skill ranks. I also do not mind that I eventually will not be able to progress a skill rank after a while unless I switch classes. I really do not care for linear progression; I have always favored lateral progression overall.
If anything I would of preferred the game were only skill ranks and no phys levels, that way when i switch a class I will truly be down to level 1 again. That's my only real gripe but it's minor at best.
Anyways I'm really looking forward to FFXIV and closed beta has reinforced that greatly. I enjoy the battle pacing, character customization, world, graphics, story, and all the various touches that make Eorzea feel like a living breathing environment instead of a game.
The bottom line is that any system like this boils down to the game company taking on a second role as a kind of big brother time police. If I buy a book the pages do not slowly go blank because I'm reading it too much. The TV doesn't demand that I turn to another channel every few hours and my car doesn't start to gobble up excess fuel because I have travelled over a certain number of miles. We as the customer pay to play these games and the companies involved have absolutely no right to then tell us how and when we can play.
Jamie's assertion that rested xp as offered by WoW and others is the same thing but in reverse is entirely false and the difference is choice. A player chooses to go offline and rest for 8, 12, 24 or however many hours he / she likes and is then given a bonus xp boost based on that choice. The system described for the latest FF has no choice whatsoever and is forced onto the player wether he / she likes it or not so how this can be described as the same thing baffles me.
The only voice that we as players have that really matters resides within our wallets and this is the only voice that game companies etc. listen to when it gets loud enough, and that said the only way for us to defeat unfair practices such as this is to let that voice be heard. It's simple to do, just don't buy or play the game until these draconian and unfair systems are removed.
Oh damn, still fighting about what might be, or what it might mean, or how its gonna do this, or gonna do that huh?
Have we at least gotten over the part where we assume we know half the non-existant subscriber community has already quit before it ever was?
Hmm, ok well guess I'll just check back in a week again. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, an entire week has passed since we came up with this topic, anyone got something new to discuss about FFXIV? Please dont tell me we have to go back to the jumping topic again.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Oh damn, still fighting about what might be, or what it might mean, or how its gonna do this, or gonna do that huh?
Have we at least gotten over the part where we assume we know half the non-existant subscriber community has already quit before it ever was?
Hmm, ok well guess I'll just check back in a week again. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, an entire week has passed since we came up with this topic, anyone got something new to discuss about FFXIV? Please dont tell me we have to go back to the jumping topic again.
Ehh it's always the same with every single MMO launch these days. No one game has all features that everyone wants, so they come here and yell and yell as if they are obligated to do so. There are new things to talk about the game fortunately, but someone always come in a foul mood and attempts to derail it with hateful and bitter remarks. I generally don't use the word hate often but a lot of people here truly hate some of these games and really want to see them crash, burn, and die a horrible death.
Dammit need to start a positive thread on new features now lol. (sorry for the rant, it's just frustrating seeing this happen to every damn game that comes out now.)
Edit: Not saying your post was hateful so don't get me wrong, was merely making a statement that was triggered by your post is all haha.
This is so new that you will have to play it to see if it works for you. The love and hate posts are astonishing, until you have played something as different as this how can you say what its going to be like? And you need to play it for a month at least; we do not spend the same amount of time in a MMO every week.
It gets more complicated, however. Like Final Fantasy XI, FFXIV offers each character the ability to level multiple jobs and combine their skills. This fatigue level only applies per each job; that is, by changing to another class, you begin a brand new threshold value for that particular class. Not only that, non-active classes begin recovering fatigue as soon as they aren't being leveled.
This unfortunately is completely wrong as per an interview with the mainman from Square. He actually says this...
"However, each class does not have its own amount of experience, so playing a different class will not mitigate the declining experience point rate. "
They are looking at this system after allthe feedback but I thought I should post as the article at the top is rendered almost useless with this one small comment from the developer. They are currently saying you get 8 hours a week at normal rates and then the next 7 hours descend until you get no xp. Since they are charging extra per alt...
It gets more complicated, however. Like Final Fantasy XI, FFXIV offers each character the ability to level multiple jobs and combine their skills. This fatigue level only applies per each job; that is, by changing to another class, you begin a brand new threshold value for that particular class. Not only that, non-active classes begin recovering fatigue as soon as they aren't being leveled.
This unfortunately is completely wrong as per an interview with the mainman from Square. He actually says this...
"However, each class does not have its own amount of experience, so playing a different class will not mitigate the declining experience point rate. "
They are looking at this system after allthe feedback but I thought I should post as the article at the top is rendered almost useless with this one small comment from the developer. They are currently saying you get 8 hours a week at normal rates and then the next 7 hours descend until you get no xp. Since they are charging extra per alt...
I dont understand how people here dont realize its a marketing move rather than a "new and unique approach". jeez people are gullible. now u will have to pay more because it will take longer kapeesh?
If the surplus remains the way it was in beta the 8 hours "normal" EXP rate to hit the first rank of surplus is a very poor estimate. I was able to hit rank 1 surplus on a class in less than 30 minutes doing guild leves, and could regularly hit rank 1 surplus grinding for about an hour-hour an a half. I don't know how slow they think people are leveling up.
For melee classes, it's most beneficial to use abilities in the specific class you are. Casters are a bit different as leveling a Tham greatly helps Conjurer due to poisons (not so much vice versa, but the buffs are nice). I've gotten 2 classes fairly high (Lancer and Marauder) in beta and had my physical level capped (at 30 in beta). So if you are a melee and want to focus entirely on DPS, it's actually not beneficial to level a whole bunch of jobs. The abilities receive reduction in effectiveness and higher cooldowns when using them outside your class (and further reduction outside your discipline). Damage skills outside your own melee class are a waste of TP. The buff and utility skills from melee jobs in the game are currently very lackluster too, and even more so when you use them outside your class. The only ability I ever found handy to keep on my Marauder from another job was Second Wind, which is a level 6 Pugilist skill, and with a dedicated healer it was unnecessary and better spent on a Marauder specific DPS skill.
I did send feedback about the lackluster melee abilities (with math to back up just how poor they are) so things could change, but right now the assumption that to be most effective you need to level other classes is untrue for the pure melee DPS types.
In beta, playing roughly 8 hours a day I managed to hit 20% surplus on 3 characters and 10% on another. I didn't have all classes I was playing to 14 at the time though, so I may very well have gotten some surplus on those too (surplus doesn't seem to start till level 14). Overall the surplus isn't too bad (certainly not worth cancelling your preorder over), but it's a very restrictive mechanic.
Comments
I guess the outrage over false information and speculation proves the "skinner box" theory. Then again, what can we expect with all of the "cash cow strategy" MMO's out today. They've been rewarding the mice every time they press the lever that they no longer know how to act when they get the shock.
This is a VERY well written article! It was very well researched and I'm kind of surprised to see an article of this calibre and integrity on MMORPG.com
I'm ignoring the post trolls for this comment.
Well I never played final fantasy, that's a game my 21 year old loves so much. I cant tell you how many different versions we have for the ps2 over the years. i will say she never played the online version.
However I have to comment on the fatigue system. Other games have had it. lets go over the list of what I know.
SWG had it back in the day before the nge. You would get battle fatigue, you wanted it fixed go watch a dancer or park yourself afk in a club.
EQ2 has it its called vitality, you run out of vitality you don't get bonus xp until you go play other characters, or your a lucky 5 year vet and you can claim your prize to refill your vitality to 100%
Wow did have it, you wanted to fix it log out at night inside a pub, or a city like stormwind.
Lotro has it, you want to get rested xp, find somebody with radiance like elrond or gandalf and log out besides them to help build your rested xp, or buy it in the coming store.
So its not something totally new, however I have to say if they put it in there needs to be a way like the other games I have listed to help reverse the fatigue conditions.
This.
If you play a single class only your character will be so gimped that no one in their right mind will allow you to join their group.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
You know...
I was REALLY REALLY exciting when I first heard FFXIV was being planned. I thought I loved FFXI even if it was 100% hardcore oriented I'd love a new generation FF MMO too.
Then I got into beta
As stated one terrible game design concept after another. Parts of the game can be enjoyable but over all.. the experience is just bogged down by a shitload of control issues.
As for the fatigue/surplus. No game does that. The moron above me is citing off games that use BONUS exp systems which is in fact a reverse of what SE is doing.
The last time I can honestly remember a game using a fatigue system for experience was in text based muds, games like Gemstone 3 and Rragonrealms. So it's not even anything new.
In fact nothing in FFXIV was new or innovative. Nothing aside from the graphics support a single notion that FFXIV is a next gen mmo
The funny part is..
All the people saying this is a good idea are taking the stance of "well that means you're supposed to work on multiple jobs/skill at a time"
Where as FFXIV specifically stated this "fatigue system" is a reward to casuals.
You idiots don't quite get that FFXIV was originally intended to be more casual than FFXI. However every system in place is counter-productive to casuals and every other system they put in between those is counter-productive to hardcore gamers.
Stop being idiot fanbois and THINK for a change.
LMAO........HAHA......HOHO
--John Ruskin
How is it that so many seem to still think the system is base on the amount of time played, when it's clearly based off of a set amount of xp that the average player could gain in 1 hour grind session multiplied by 8. Meaning you could play at a normal pace and never see the end of those 8 levels of normal xp. Considering travel, getting a group together, sorting out what leves your group is gonna tackle plus the fact that the fatiuge slowly decreases when you're not gaining xp, only botters are gonna have to worry about reaching the limit in a balanced game.
Honestly, how many of you can say you've grinded xp from log in to log out on a play session in any MMO?
IMO it is the perfect anti grind material.
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if you ignore the fact that the game has nothing to do with sony.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I've seen multiple people reference SOE when talking about FFXIV. I don't get it.
SE = SOE clone
obvious
I think it all comes down to this: Are they going to gain or lose more subscribers because of this featured system?
I personally think that they're going to lose a lot more. I can't think of many people who would see this system featured and say "hey, that's an awesome feature, I'm going to buy this game now because of it".
I do not see why there is such drama. I merely play the games as designed and if I don't like most of the design decisions I chalk it up to "it's not for me". Personally I don't see this system affecting me much, and I do not mind if physical level exp came to a grinding halt so long as I can progress skill ranks. I also do not mind that I eventually will not be able to progress a skill rank after a while unless I switch classes. I really do not care for linear progression; I have always favored lateral progression overall.
If anything I would of preferred the game were only skill ranks and no phys levels, that way when i switch a class I will truly be down to level 1 again. That's my only real gripe but it's minor at best.
Anyways I'm really looking forward to FFXIV and closed beta has reinforced that greatly. I enjoy the battle pacing, character customization, world, graphics, story, and all the various touches that make Eorzea feel like a living breathing environment instead of a game.
A.K.A. VirgoThree
The bottom line is that any system like this boils down to the game company taking on a second role as a kind of big brother time police. If I buy a book the pages do not slowly go blank because I'm reading it too much. The TV doesn't demand that I turn to another channel every few hours and my car doesn't start to gobble up excess fuel because I have travelled over a certain number of miles. We as the customer pay to play these games and the companies involved have absolutely no right to then tell us how and when we can play.
Jamie's assertion that rested xp as offered by WoW and others is the same thing but in reverse is entirely false and the difference is choice. A player chooses to go offline and rest for 8, 12, 24 or however many hours he / she likes and is then given a bonus xp boost based on that choice. The system described for the latest FF has no choice whatsoever and is forced onto the player wether he / she likes it or not so how this can be described as the same thing baffles me.
The only voice that we as players have that really matters resides within our wallets and this is the only voice that game companies etc. listen to when it gets loud enough, and that said the only way for us to defeat unfair practices such as this is to let that voice be heard. It's simple to do, just don't buy or play the game until these draconian and unfair systems are removed.
Did we win yet?
Oh damn, still fighting about what might be, or what it might mean, or how its gonna do this, or gonna do that huh?
Have we at least gotten over the part where we assume we know half the non-existant subscriber community has already quit before it ever was?
Hmm, ok well guess I'll just check back in a week again. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, an entire week has passed since we came up with this topic, anyone got something new to discuss about FFXIV? Please dont tell me we have to go back to the jumping topic again.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Ehh it's always the same with every single MMO launch these days. No one game has all features that everyone wants, so they come here and yell and yell as if they are obligated to do so. There are new things to talk about the game fortunately, but someone always come in a foul mood and attempts to derail it with hateful and bitter remarks. I generally don't use the word hate often but a lot of people here truly hate some of these games and really want to see them crash, burn, and die a horrible death.
Dammit need to start a positive thread on new features now lol. (sorry for the rant, it's just frustrating seeing this happen to every damn game that comes out now.)
Edit: Not saying your post was hateful so don't get me wrong, was merely making a statement that was triggered by your post is all haha.
A.K.A. VirgoThree
This is so new that you will have to play it to see if it works for you. The love and hate posts are astonishing, until you have played something as different as this how can you say what its going to be like? And you need to play it for a month at least; we do not spend the same amount of time in a MMO every week.
This unfortunately is completely wrong as per an interview with the mainman from Square. He actually says this...
"However, each class does not have its own amount of experience, so playing a different class will not mitigate the declining experience point rate. "
They are looking at this system after allthe feedback but I thought I should post as the article at the top is rendered almost useless with this one small comment from the developer. They are currently saying you get 8 hours a week at normal rates and then the next 7 hours descend until you get no xp. Since they are charging extra per alt...
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/97835-Komoto-s-Official-Explanation-of-Surplus
People are getting that part confused.
Switching class only affects SP (Skill Points) gain, letting you level another class without the surplus if you hit on it the 1st class.
XP for Phyiscal Level is Global, when you hit the fatigue threshold, Switching Weapons won't get rid of it....
only time will, via the weekly reset or just doing other things that don't gain you xp, so it can "recharge".
I dont understand how people here dont realize its a marketing move rather than a "new and unique approach". jeez people are gullible. now u will have to pay more because it will take longer kapeesh?
/theinhibitor/
If the surplus remains the way it was in beta the 8 hours "normal" EXP rate to hit the first rank of surplus is a very poor estimate. I was able to hit rank 1 surplus on a class in less than 30 minutes doing guild leves, and could regularly hit rank 1 surplus grinding for about an hour-hour an a half. I don't know how slow they think people are leveling up.
For melee classes, it's most beneficial to use abilities in the specific class you are. Casters are a bit different as leveling a Tham greatly helps Conjurer due to poisons (not so much vice versa, but the buffs are nice). I've gotten 2 classes fairly high (Lancer and Marauder) in beta and had my physical level capped (at 30 in beta). So if you are a melee and want to focus entirely on DPS, it's actually not beneficial to level a whole bunch of jobs. The abilities receive reduction in effectiveness and higher cooldowns when using them outside your class (and further reduction outside your discipline). Damage skills outside your own melee class are a waste of TP. The buff and utility skills from melee jobs in the game are currently very lackluster too, and even more so when you use them outside your class. The only ability I ever found handy to keep on my Marauder from another job was Second Wind, which is a level 6 Pugilist skill, and with a dedicated healer it was unnecessary and better spent on a Marauder specific DPS skill.
I did send feedback about the lackluster melee abilities (with math to back up just how poor they are) so things could change, but right now the assumption that to be most effective you need to level other classes is untrue for the pure melee DPS types.
In beta, playing roughly 8 hours a day I managed to hit 20% surplus on 3 characters and 10% on another. I didn't have all classes I was playing to 14 at the time though, so I may very well have gotten some surplus on those too (surplus doesn't seem to start till level 14). Overall the surplus isn't too bad (certainly not worth cancelling your preorder over), but it's a very restrictive mechanic.
pwned
/theinhibitor/