@Sidhaete: I don't see the posts you're quoting in your post, so I guess the thread has been cleaned up somewhat? Ah good, such dribble and nonsense debates sometimes
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
@Sidhaete: I don't see the posts you're quoting in your post, so I guess the thread has been cleaned up somewhat? Ah good, such dribble and nonsense debates sometimes
Alas, I trimmed my own wall of text simply because the quote tree was about 6 deep and, well, it was a wall of text (I do tend to do that, mea culpa!). My innermost threaded post is here: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3753710 if you wish to follow.
Anybody find the video of the irrigation pumps spewing poison yet? I do not have access to the Gamescom footage at work, and there are so many to go through that I may have to take some time to sift through them, especially since I suspect the footage is not on Youtube but is rather part of one of the gamer website's streaming content. If I recall correctly, the character involved was a pig-tailed elementalist (if I'm right, I've narrowed it down some. If I'm wrong I just sent everyone on a wild goose chase, oops)....
I will be sure to come back with a link when I locate the pesky video.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I've really seen nothing out of Guild Wars 2 that leads me to believe the game will be any better than any of the other upcoming MMORPG releases, but outside of having to deal with the generally annoying GW2 fanbase (on this site) I'll probably try GW2, SW:ToR, FFXIV, and RIFT at release and then play whichever game suits me the best.
I've really seen nothing out of Guild Wars 2 that leads me to believe the game will be any better than any of the other upcoming MMORPG releases, but outside of having to deal with the generally annoying GW2 fanbase (on this site) I'll probably try GW2, SW:ToR, FFXIV, and RIFT at release and then play whichever game suits me the best.
Either way, I'm tired of World of Warcraft.
Really? Rifts has some interesting features (invasions, rifts, souls), SWTOR has Bioware's expertise in storytelling, but otherwise they don't stray too far from the typical MMO-mold. FFXIV offers nothing new to the genre from what I can tell (I can be wrong).
Well - better is a subjective term and based on a person's preferences. I just can't see how you can come to that conclusion.
I was really looking forward to Rifts and SWTOR until the floow of Guild Wars 2 info starting coming. Granted - I'm sure I will purchase both of them, but I no longer care if more information is released for either game.
Hell - I started playing the original Guild Wars again to add to my Hall of Monuments.
I've really seen nothing out of Guild Wars 2 that leads me to believe the game will be any better than any of the other upcoming MMORPG releases, but outside of having to deal with the generally annoying GW2 fanbase (on this site) I'll probably try GW2, SW:ToR, FFXIV, and RIFT at release and then play whichever game suits me the best.
Either way, I'm tired of World of Warcraft.
Really? Rifts has some interesting features (invasions, rifts, souls), SWTOR has Bioware's expertise in storytelling, but otherwise they don't stray too far from the typical MMO-mold. FFXIV offers nothing new to the genre from what I can tell (I can be wrong).
Well - better is a subjective term and based on a person's preferences. I just can't see how you can come to that conclusion.
I was really looking forward to Rifts and SWTOR until the floow of Guild Wars 2 info starting coming. Granted - I'm sure I will purchase both of them, but I no longer care if more information is released for either game.
Hell - I started playing the original Guild Wars again to add to my Hall of Monuments.
That's just it though. There isn't much in Guild Wars that strays too far from the mold outside of some "interesting features." At its heart, it's still a WoW-influenced themepark MMORPG, which is perfectly fine. The issue is with all the people who, for some reason, feel as if this game is going break new ground within the genre.
To me, the biggest eye-catching feature is the fact that it's going for a buy-2-play model similar to the original Guild Wars. As a result of this decision, I will be interested in seeing what this means in terms of how additional content is provided and the rate in which it is implemented.
After reading this thread a funny thought came to mind. The AOC forum here looked like this thread up until about a week or so before beta. Funny how that turned out, eh?
The moral of the story is, keep your expectations in check. As well as remember what looks great on paper, and through promises may not be so great when you actually get your hands on it.
I look forward to seeing what GW2 is on launch day, judging by what I've seen, it looks good so far. A lot of games do at such a stage, as someone put it earlier in this thread. "The dreamer stage" or something to that effect. Which explains it all really. What we're doing now is putting our own spin on the information we've been handed.
What we come up with in our minds, may not exactly be a reality in the long run. The best thing to do is manage your expectations in a manner that leaves room for the worst possible scenario. I'm not seeing much at all of that in this thread. People have seemingly convinced themselves that this is the "one". If this keeps up, I shutter to think about what the outcry will be like, if it's not.
I'm keeping an eye on all the major MMO's in development, none of them at this point have convinced me enough to even label myself as a "fan of" yet. SWTOR and GW2 have come close, yet no cigar for either of them as of yet.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I've really seen nothing out of Guild Wars 2 that leads me to believe the game will be any better than any of the other upcoming MMORPG releases, but outside of having to deal with the generally annoying GW2 fanbase (on this site) I'll probably try GW2, SW:ToR, FFXIV, and RIFT at release and then play whichever game suits me the best.
Either way, I'm tired of World of Warcraft.
Really? Rifts has some interesting features (invasions, rifts, souls), SWTOR has Bioware's expertise in storytelling, but otherwise they don't stray too far from the typical MMO-mold. FFXIV offers nothing new to the genre from what I can tell (I can be wrong).
Well - better is a subjective term and based on a person's preferences. I just can't see how you can come to that conclusion.
I was really looking forward to Rifts and SWTOR until the floow of Guild Wars 2 info starting coming. Granted - I'm sure I will purchase both of them, but I no longer care if more information is released for either game.
Hell - I started playing the original Guild Wars again to add to my Hall of Monuments.
That's just it though. There isn't much in Guild Wars that strays too far from the mold outside of some "interesting features." At its heart, it's still a WoW-influenced themepark MMORPG, which is perfectly fine. The issue is with all the people who, for some reason, feel as if this game is going break new ground within the genre.
To me, the biggest eye-catching feature is the fact that it's going for a buy-2-play model similar to the original Guild Wars. As a result of this decision, I will be interested in seeing what this means in terms of how additional content is provided and the rate in which it is implemented.
How is it a wow influenced theme park? It doesn't seem anything like wow to me.
I've really seen nothing out of Guild Wars 2 that leads me to believe the game will be any better than any of the other upcoming MMORPG releases, but outside of having to deal with the generally annoying GW2 fanbase (on this site) I'll probably try GW2, SW:ToR, FFXIV, and RIFT at release and then play whichever game suits me the best.
Either way, I'm tired of World of Warcraft.
Really? Rifts has some interesting features (invasions, rifts, souls), SWTOR has Bioware's expertise in storytelling, but otherwise they don't stray too far from the typical MMO-mold. FFXIV offers nothing new to the genre from what I can tell (I can be wrong).
Well - better is a subjective term and based on a person's preferences. I just can't see how you can come to that conclusion.
I was really looking forward to Rifts and SWTOR until the floow of Guild Wars 2 info starting coming. Granted - I'm sure I will purchase both of them, but I no longer care if more information is released for either game.
Hell - I started playing the original Guild Wars again to add to my Hall of Monuments.
That's just it though. There isn't much in Guild Wars that strays too far from the mold outside of some "interesting features." At its heart, it's still a WoW-influenced themepark MMORPG, which is perfectly fine. The issue is with all the people who, for some reason, feel as if this game is going break new ground within the genre.
To me, the biggest eye-catching feature is the fact that it's going for a buy-2-play model similar to the original Guild Wars. As a result of this decision, I will be interested in seeing what this means in terms of how additional content is provided and the rate in which it is implemented.
How is it a wow influenced theme park? It doesn't seem anything like wow to me.
Personally I think its more of a Warhammer influenced theme park mmo. If you compare it to anything its most like WAR, PQs, PvP centric, I "ASSUME" weak on crafting, and what is generally the more time consuming things in other MMOs.
I've really seen nothing out of Guild Wars 2 that leads me to believe the game will be any better than any of the other upcoming MMORPG releases, but outside of having to deal with the generally annoying GW2 fanbase (on this site) I'll probably try GW2, SW:ToR, FFXIV, and RIFT at release and then play whichever game suits me the best.
Either way, I'm tired of World of Warcraft.
Really? Rifts has some interesting features (invasions, rifts, souls), SWTOR has Bioware's expertise in storytelling, but otherwise they don't stray too far from the typical MMO-mold. FFXIV offers nothing new to the genre from what I can tell (I can be wrong).
Well - better is a subjective term and based on a person's preferences. I just can't see how you can come to that conclusion.
I was really looking forward to Rifts and SWTOR until the floow of Guild Wars 2 info starting coming. Granted - I'm sure I will purchase both of them, but I no longer care if more information is released for either game.
Hell - I started playing the original Guild Wars again to add to my Hall of Monuments.
That's just it though. There isn't much in Guild Wars that strays too far from the mold outside of some "interesting features." At its heart, it's still a WoW-influenced themepark MMORPG, which is perfectly fine. The issue is with all the people who, for some reason, feel as if this game is going break new ground within the genre.
To me, the biggest eye-catching feature is the fact that it's going for a buy-2-play model similar to the original Guild Wars. As a result of this decision, I will be interested in seeing what this means in terms of how additional content is provided and the rate in which it is implemented.
How is it a wow influenced theme park? It doesn't seem anything like wow to me.
I'm not sure, either. Maybe because it has levels?
I'm stoked for Guild Wars 2 just because it's possible to dodge attacks.
-------- "Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt: Front: UNO Chemistry Club Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
I've really seen nothing out of Guild Wars 2 that leads me to believe the game will be any better than any of the other upcoming MMORPG releases, but outside of having to deal with the generally annoying GW2 fanbase (on this site) I'll probably try GW2, SW:ToR, FFXIV, and RIFT at release and then play whichever game suits me the best.
Either way, I'm tired of World of Warcraft.
Really? Rifts has some interesting features (invasions, rifts, souls), SWTOR has Bioware's expertise in storytelling, but otherwise they don't stray too far from the typical MMO-mold. FFXIV offers nothing new to the genre from what I can tell (I can be wrong).
Well - better is a subjective term and based on a person's preferences. I just can't see how you can come to that conclusion.
I was really looking forward to Rifts and SWTOR until the floow of Guild Wars 2 info starting coming. Granted - I'm sure I will purchase both of them, but I no longer care if more information is released for either game.
Hell - I started playing the original Guild Wars again to add to my Hall of Monuments.
That's just it though. There isn't much in Guild Wars that strays too far from the mold outside of some "interesting features." At its heart, it's still a WoW-influenced themepark MMORPG, which is perfectly fine. The issue is with all the people who, for some reason, feel as if this game is going break new ground within the genre.
To me, the biggest eye-catching feature is the fact that it's going for a buy-2-play model similar to the original Guild Wars. As a result of this decision, I will be interested in seeing what this means in terms of how additional content is provided and the rate in which it is implemented.
How is it a wow influenced theme park? It doesn't seem anything like wow to me.
Personally I think its more of a Warhammer influenced theme park mmo. If you compare it to anything its most like WAR, PQs, PvP centric, I "ASSUME" weak on crafting, and what is generally the more time consuming things in other MMOs.
Warhammer maybe, although really the only thing they have in common is the public quest (even though the dynamic events are a much better implimentation of the idea). Other than that, there really isn't much commonality.
It's funny that some should continue to compare Guild Wars 2 to Warhammer and, I see a few posts above, Age of Conan. Neither of those games is entirely without merit and unworthy of mention; I played both and ultimately determined that while they were fun in many aspects, I wasn't going to pay a subscription for the privilege of continuing to play.
The comparison to AoC, then, to me, reads as... "why not?" Why not take AoC's unimplemented bar-room brawls and Tortage/Destiny storyline and take them up a notch? Why not take the bits and pieces from Warhammer''s Public Quests and address the things that made people stop playing them, such as population issues and the immersion-break that 3-minute resets caused?
As someone who neither thinks Guild Wars 2 will "save" the MMO industry (from what?) nor "kill" any franchise (why destroy that which other people enjoy?), nor someone who ever felt this way about GW2, pre-GamesCom, I will say that even if Guild Wars 2 were nothing but a smashup of Age of Conan and Warhammer Online that I could play for free, I would enjoy that game.
It just turns out that it looks even better than that, having taken the failures of both games into consideration.
It's funny that some should continue to compare Guild Wars 2 to Warhammer and, I see a few posts above, Age of Conan. Neither of those games is entirely without merit and unworthy of mention; I played both and ultimately determined that while they were fun in many aspects, I wasn't going to pay a subscription for the privilege of continuing to play.
The comparison to AoC, then, to me, reads as... "why not?" Why not take AoC's unimplemented bar-room brawls and Tortage/Destiny storyline and take them up a notch? Why not take the bits and pieces from Warhammer''s Public Quests and address the things that made people stop playing them, such as population issues and the immersion-break that 3-minute resets caused?
As someone who neither thinks Guild Wars 2 will "save" the MMO industry (from what?) nor "kill" any franchise (why destroy that which other people enjoy?), nor someone who ever felt this way about GW2, pre-GamesCom, I will say that even if Guild Wars 2 were nothing but a smashup of Age of Conan and Warhammer Online that I could play for free, I would enjoy that game.
It just turns out that it looks even better than that, having taken the failures of both games into consideration.
I completely agree! I do not see GW2 as the savior of MMOs or the MMO that will kill any other MMOs off. To me it is more of the fact that the game is helping change some of the things I do not like about the genre. Like the removal of the holy trinity and static quest givers that are never threaten by the big bad monster they send you to kill. I am sick of having some guy tell me that his family is being threatened by a group of ogres, and then when you find said ogres they are standing around in a field doing nothing. Plus it is improving on ideas like you mentioned the public quests from warhammer, which were great but they were lacking in many ways.
On a side note I wanted to say thanks to both you and Cyphers for finding that poison well video, must have missed it while I was going through all of the GC videos.
On a side note I wanted to say thanks to both you and Cyphers for finding that poison well video, must have missed it while I was going through all of the GC videos.
You're welcome
I've never been coasting the hype of other MMO's like AoC or Aion, didn't mean that I didn't enjoy them for what they were worth. I just took the information and footage available together with any betaplay experiences, and that was the base for my expectations, worked well for me up to now so I expect it to work well for SW:TOR, GW2 and the other MMO's too. Managing your own expectations is generally always a good thing, not only for MMO games.
But people saying that GW2 offers nothing new or innovative or that it is some WoW-influenced themepark haven't really been reading the information available about GW2 or haven't been playing enough various MMO's to recognize an evolution or innovation of MMO gameplay mechanics when it's happening.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
But people saying that GW2 offers nothing new or innovative or that it is some WoW-influenced themepark haven't really been reading the information available about GW2 or haven't been playing enough various MMO's to recognize an evolution or innovation of MMO gameplay mechanics when it's happening.
I don't like the high hype this game is getting as it could be a bad thing. Its causing people to have high expectations for the game and overly exaggerate how it's going kill WoW or TOR or any mmo. Everyone should take it down a notch or you're just going to end up disappointing yourselves. I can see its happening to a few people already. Arenanet has given out info on the features and mechanics currently in the game for the past few months and from what was shown at demo, they delivered the promises. For the people who said that Arenanet didn't deliver the promises, I think you're expecting too much. What they have stated is currently in the game. Don't try to assume more or dig deeper into it. Stop with the high expectations you are already causing yourselves disappointment. If you don't like all the things you have seen, then please move on and stop wasting your time following this game.
I've never been coasting the hype of other MMO's like AoC or Aion, didn't mean that I didn't enjoy them for what they were worth. I just took the information and footage available together with any betaplay experiences, and that was the base for my experiences, worked well for me up to now so I expect it to work well for SW:TOR, GW2 and the other MMO's too. Managing your own expectations is generally always a good thing, not only for MMO games.
Yep, I let what I see do the talking, not what i imagine it could be. It's always easier in the end that way. No great surprise if things don't shape up 100% to what a game seemed to be. As well as no big disappointment.
At least I'm not the only one who looked at those games for what they were and not what they weren't.
But people saying that GW2 offers nothing new or innovative or that it is some WoW-influenced themepark haven't really been reading the information available about GW2 or haven't been playing enough various MMO's to recognize an evolution or innovation of MMO gameplay mechanics when it's happening.
I always found the comparisons made to AOC in regard to WOW, funny and untruthful. It's an even bigger leap to compare what we've seen of GW2 to WOW. How this game plays seems to be a giant leap away from the tried and true WOW/EQ mechanics of yester-year.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't like the high hype this game is getting as it could be a bad thing. Its causing people to have high expectations for the game
Sure and I usually really don't comment since I've grown quite cynical towards MMO's the past years.
But for some reason MMO releases have thought people not to have any expectations.
I'm sure you intend this to say that people should manage their own imagination not to disapoint themself and I can accept that.
Though the ability to have expecations is a treasured thing.
Expectation is tied to an expected level of qaulity/fun.
Do people expect the next Halo (as example) to be bad? Are they wrong to expect a good game for their money?
With a game that is tied to havings its playerbase commiting to the game each and every month expectations are more then relevant. There is a minimum of qaulity you expect.
It works for all games in the industry yet not for a MMO?
I don't mind the high hype, with the way this industry has evolved and specifically MMO's there aren't many ways to express our apreciation for a game. If nothing else a hype is more a message for developers then it is for customers.
The comparisons to Warhammer are superficial. People who compare the two are not wrong. Yes. They have quests which people work together, grouped or not, to do that go on in the world by themselves and everyone gets rewarded. But the important differences are in the details. The events do not happen on a timer, failing doesn't reset, but chains off in another direction, and the worlds is filled with them where many unrelated events (that are not all combat events) can occur in the same area. Not zone but within the same farm for example.
Someone explain the WoW influence? I know what it means, I just don't see how it applies here. It seems to me it's the thing to say these days to sound so like you're a wise and discriminating player. Every game is called a WoW clone or WoW influenced and there are games that really fit the bill (Runes of Magic and LOTRO), but it's use reflexively without thought, at least it seems to me, to what it really means.
So Guild Wars 2 is WoW influenced - why? There's a hotbar? Even that's different than the way other MMO's handle things and is more directly in line with the original since there's always a fixed number of abilities avaialble at a given time. Yes - you have more at your disposal, but there are only going to be approx. 10 available at the same time - you'll never have 20 abilities on the screen at once. Active dodging isn't in WoW. Yet again - I suppose in the most superficial way you can compare it to Wow, but you could compare to every single MMO out there then. Other than that I can't think of any substantive similarity.
I almost think that saying an MMO is a themepark MMO is pointless these days. You'll rarely find a "sandbox" game again and when one comes out, don't expect it to do well. That doesn't mean one can't be made, that is the most awesome sanddbox experience possible, but it will only be a niche game. There's nothing wrong with that. Niche games cater to a specific audience and don't have to worry about catering to everyone since their playerbase is fairly monolithic.
Perhaps it is because GW2 will be in an open world?
If that is the case, then I feel sorry for the poor soul who thinks Blizzard invented the Open World :
Actually, I still think it sad that so many people think that WoW began the genre, and/or that WoW invented many of the things we see in MMO's today.
I'd like to remind those poor, deluded people, that WoW was a big, well-refined rip-off of the ideas that set apart 'smaller' MMO's before it, the biggest rips of which came from Everquest.
Blizzard really took ideas from others, refined those ideas, and added on to them. : Remember that, you poor deluded fools who think WoW is the begin all-end all.
Also, I agree that many throw the term "WoW Clone" around far too reflexively these days. Chill out, sit back, wait and see what happens. You may be pleasantly surprised.
That or some peoples perception is far too jaded by past experiences to see change :
And yes, there are some things shown about GW2 which bug me, but I'll wait and see what happens. They're still adding and balancing, refining what they have, which is already full of eye-candy. But really, do not expect GW2 to be the next WoW. I expect it to be tremendously popular, but the floodgates have already been opened. You can't exactly open what is already opened without it first being closed, which hasn't yet happened. Not even sure how it WOULD be closed.
But still, the idea of having 50 players in the vicinity of an event causing a massive battle against an army of foes rather than the usual little groups? That's too good a concept to pass up for me
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
There more than likely will never be another WoW, for many reasons.
MMOs are mainstream now. When WoW came out, millions of people didn't play a single MMO. A quarter million was thought to be a huge success. Also, most MMOs didn't have the polish and ease of play that WoW did. They brought single player game asthetics to the MMO and the ability for people to play effectively outside of a group. WoW introduced millions of people to MMOs, many of which still play WoW to this day. Many will continue to play WoW for years, maybe leaving the game at times, but always going back. Most successful MMOs have this core of players, but WoW just has a bigger core.
So no game will replace it, be the next big thing - Blizzard was at the right place, at the right time, with the right product.
It's not there can't be a game that is better. It has nothing to do with better, but everything to do with change of the MMO market from a niche to one where every game publisher is trying to make their mark.
Guild Wars 2 can fit the bill for what people would consider the "WoW killer" but it won't be. And no other game will either. It can't happen anymore and I don't think it ever could.
*DISCLAIMER*: I have read up on every feature, and every single article/interview, and/or looked for translations of interviews that relate to Guild Wars 2. All of what I say below does not mean I don't look forward to Guild Wars 2, because I honestly cannot wait for it's release. It's merely my point of view of the hype of the game, and commentaries on what people seem to expect this game to be, both good and bad. Read at your own discression.
First, I will say that those claiming there is nothing new in GW2 and are just comparing it to WoW are being retarded. WoW is not the holy grail of MMOs. However, it was the first MMO that mashed together features from various MMOs and brought it up to a high level of quality. Everything you see in WoW was introduced in an MMO at some point in the past. Blizzard has a habbit of taking ideas from other companies and implementing it to their own game.
Essentially, Anet is doing the same thing. Anet is basically taking the buggy, incomplete, or also good ideas from other games (AoC, WAR, CoH etc.) and putting their own spin on it. Not only that, but Anet is looking beyond the MMO genre at other types of games (FPS, Single-Player RPGs, etc.). No this does not mean that GW2 is just a WoW 2.0 with features from modern day MMOs. It just means that it's Anet's turn to compile all the best ideas from recent MMOs and put them into a game with a high level of polish. I mean they put their own spin on them, so as to keep their philosophy of skill > time. PvP is see as being of the skill required in GW1 with features from other MMOs, again with Anet's own twist on them.
However, there is no way GW2 will overtake WoW. Honestly, even if I'm a GW2 fanboi, I do not want that to happen. I like having a smaller big MMO, rather than having a gigantic MMO such as WoW. OK yes I do play WoW. The only way WoW is going to be brought down is if blizzard just shuts the servers off. And even then... private servers will still live on. I don't even think Blizzard's next-gen MMO will be able to overtake the shadow of it's predecessor.
There more than likely will never be another WoW, for many reasons.
MMOs are mainstream now. When WoW came out, millions of people didn't play a single MMO. A quarter million was thought to be a huge success. Also, most MMOs didn't have the polish and ease of play that WoW did. They brought single player game asthetics to the MMO and the ability for people to play effectively outside of a group. WoW introduced millions of people to MMOs, many of which still play WoW to this day. Many will continue to play WoW for years, maybe leaving the game at times, but always going back. Most successful MMOs have this core of players, but WoW just has a bigger core.
So no game will replace it, be the next big thing - Blizzard was at the right place, at the right time, with the right product.
It's not there can't be a game that is better. It has nothing to do with better, but everything to do with change of the MMO market from a niche to one where every game publisher is trying to make their mark.
Guild Wars 2 can fit the bill for what people would consider the "WoW killer" but it won't be. And no other game will either. It can't happen anymore and I don't think it ever could.
True but there is still some potenial in the mmo market. As mainstream as WoW is a very large majority of gamers still hate it due to the "boring combat", "grind" and the many sterotypes that plague WoW players. Like wise in Asia their are similarily popular games as WoW with the competition making comparable amounts of money as WoW does now.
Consoles is also an avenue of which the person who mainstreams an mmo first could possible make a huge amount of money. There is potenial financial growth for mmo's but mmo developers need to start thinking outside the box.
Ironically it's actually probably still possible to further mainstream mmo's. You would expect that the PS2 or the xbox 360 would be about as mainstream as gaming would become and then came the Wii and took mainstreaming to a whole new level. What this genre needs is ingenuity something which it sorely lacks.
There more than likely will never be another WoW, for many reasons.
MMOs are mainstream now. When WoW came out, millions of people didn't play a single MMO. A quarter million was thought to be a huge success. Also, most MMOs didn't have the polish and ease of play that WoW did. They brought single player game asthetics to the MMO and the ability for people to play effectively outside of a group. WoW introduced millions of people to MMOs, many of which still play WoW to this day. Many will continue to play WoW for years, maybe leaving the game at times, but always going back. Most successful MMOs have this core of players, but WoW just has a bigger core.
So no game will replace it, be the next big thing - Blizzard was at the right place, at the right time, with the right product.
It's not there can't be a game that is better. It has nothing to do with better, but everything to do with change of the MMO market from a niche to one where every game publisher is trying to make their mark.
Guild Wars 2 can fit the bill for what people would consider the "WoW killer" but it won't be. And no other game will either. It can't happen anymore and I don't think it ever could.
True but there is still some potenial in the mmo market. As mainstream as WoW is a very large majority of gamers still hate it due to the "boring combat", "grind" and the many sterotypes that plague WoW players. Like wise in Asia their are similarily popular games as WoW with the competition making comparable amounts of money as WoW does now.
Consoles is also an avenue of which the person who mainstreams an mmo first could possible make a huge amount of money. There is potenial financial growth for mmo's but mmo developers need to start thinking outside the box.
Ironically it's actually probably still possible to further mainstream mmo's. You would expect that the PS2 or the xbox 360 would be about as mainstream as gaming would become and then came the Wii and took mainstreaming to a whole new level. What this genre needs is ingenuity something which it sorely lacks.
I agree completely.
To clarify more, I don't think there will be another juggernaut product that will dwarf the competition with the numbers that WoW dwarfed it's competition.
Comments
@Sidhaete: I don't see the posts you're quoting in your post, so I guess the thread has been cleaned up somewhat? Ah good, such dribble and nonsense debates sometimes
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Alas, I trimmed my own wall of text simply because the quote tree was about 6 deep and, well, it was a wall of text (I do tend to do that, mea culpa!). My innermost threaded post is here: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3753710 if you wish to follow.
Anybody find the video of the irrigation pumps spewing poison yet? I do not have access to the Gamescom footage at work, and there are so many to go through that I may have to take some time to sift through them, especially since I suspect the footage is not on Youtube but is rather part of one of the gamer website's streaming content. If I recall correctly, the character involved was a pig-tailed elementalist (if I'm right, I've narrowed it down some. If I'm wrong I just sent everyone on a wild goose chase, oops)....
I will be sure to come back with a link when I locate the pesky video.
*solemn cough*
Ahem
Luckily I could find it quickly in the compilation thread by looking for sprinkler event, here you go:
Gametrailers walkthrough presentation human area (in English) part 4 (scouts explanation, toxic sprinkler event 1:40)
hf with it
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Ah, fantastic! Thank you Detective Cyphers.
I've really seen nothing out of Guild Wars 2 that leads me to believe the game will be any better than any of the other upcoming MMORPG releases, but outside of having to deal with the generally annoying GW2 fanbase (on this site) I'll probably try GW2, SW:ToR, FFXIV, and RIFT at release and then play whichever game suits me the best.
Either way, I'm tired of World of Warcraft.
Really? Rifts has some interesting features (invasions, rifts, souls), SWTOR has Bioware's expertise in storytelling, but otherwise they don't stray too far from the typical MMO-mold. FFXIV offers nothing new to the genre from what I can tell (I can be wrong).
Well - better is a subjective term and based on a person's preferences. I just can't see how you can come to that conclusion.
I was really looking forward to Rifts and SWTOR until the floow of Guild Wars 2 info starting coming. Granted - I'm sure I will purchase both of them, but I no longer care if more information is released for either game.
Hell - I started playing the original Guild Wars again to add to my Hall of Monuments.
That's just it though. There isn't much in Guild Wars that strays too far from the mold outside of some "interesting features." At its heart, it's still a WoW-influenced themepark MMORPG, which is perfectly fine. The issue is with all the people who, for some reason, feel as if this game is going break new ground within the genre.
To me, the biggest eye-catching feature is the fact that it's going for a buy-2-play model similar to the original Guild Wars. As a result of this decision, I will be interested in seeing what this means in terms of how additional content is provided and the rate in which it is implemented.
After reading this thread a funny thought came to mind. The AOC forum here looked like this thread up until about a week or so before beta. Funny how that turned out, eh?
The moral of the story is, keep your expectations in check. As well as remember what looks great on paper, and through promises may not be so great when you actually get your hands on it.
I look forward to seeing what GW2 is on launch day, judging by what I've seen, it looks good so far. A lot of games do at such a stage, as someone put it earlier in this thread. "The dreamer stage" or something to that effect. Which explains it all really. What we're doing now is putting our own spin on the information we've been handed.
What we come up with in our minds, may not exactly be a reality in the long run. The best thing to do is manage your expectations in a manner that leaves room for the worst possible scenario. I'm not seeing much at all of that in this thread. People have seemingly convinced themselves that this is the "one". If this keeps up, I shutter to think about what the outcry will be like, if it's not.
I'm keeping an eye on all the major MMO's in development, none of them at this point have convinced me enough to even label myself as a "fan of" yet. SWTOR and GW2 have come close, yet no cigar for either of them as of yet.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
How is it a wow influenced theme park? It doesn't seem anything like wow to me.
Personally I think its more of a Warhammer influenced theme park mmo. If you compare it to anything its most like WAR, PQs, PvP centric, I "ASSUME" weak on crafting, and what is generally the more time consuming things in other MMOs.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
I'm not sure, either. Maybe because it has levels?
I'm stoked for Guild Wars 2 just because it's possible to dodge attacks.
--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Warhammer maybe, although really the only thing they have in common is the public quest (even though the dynamic events are a much better implimentation of the idea). Other than that, there really isn't much commonality.
It's funny that some should continue to compare Guild Wars 2 to Warhammer and, I see a few posts above, Age of Conan. Neither of those games is entirely without merit and unworthy of mention; I played both and ultimately determined that while they were fun in many aspects, I wasn't going to pay a subscription for the privilege of continuing to play.
The comparison to AoC, then, to me, reads as... "why not?" Why not take AoC's unimplemented bar-room brawls and Tortage/Destiny storyline and take them up a notch? Why not take the bits and pieces from Warhammer''s Public Quests and address the things that made people stop playing them, such as population issues and the immersion-break that 3-minute resets caused?
As someone who neither thinks Guild Wars 2 will "save" the MMO industry (from what?) nor "kill" any franchise (why destroy that which other people enjoy?), nor someone who ever felt this way about GW2, pre-GamesCom, I will say that even if Guild Wars 2 were nothing but a smashup of Age of Conan and Warhammer Online that I could play for free, I would enjoy that game.
It just turns out that it looks even better than that, having taken the failures of both games into consideration.
I completely agree! I do not see GW2 as the savior of MMOs or the MMO that will kill any other MMOs off. To me it is more of the fact that the game is helping change some of the things I do not like about the genre. Like the removal of the holy trinity and static quest givers that are never threaten by the big bad monster they send you to kill. I am sick of having some guy tell me that his family is being threatened by a group of ogres, and then when you find said ogres they are standing around in a field doing nothing. Plus it is improving on ideas like you mentioned the public quests from warhammer, which were great but they were lacking in many ways.
On a side note I wanted to say thanks to both you and Cyphers for finding that poison well video, must have missed it while I was going through all of the GC videos.
You're welcome
I've never been coasting the hype of other MMO's like AoC or Aion, didn't mean that I didn't enjoy them for what they were worth. I just took the information and footage available together with any betaplay experiences, and that was the base for my expectations, worked well for me up to now so I expect it to work well for SW:TOR, GW2 and the other MMO's too. Managing your own expectations is generally always a good thing, not only for MMO games.
But people saying that GW2 offers nothing new or innovative or that it is some WoW-influenced themepark haven't really been reading the information available about GW2 or haven't been playing enough various MMO's to recognize an evolution or innovation of MMO gameplay mechanics when it's happening.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I totally agree.
SexuaLobster's Grease Portal
I don't like the high hype this game is getting as it could be a bad thing. Its causing people to have high expectations for the game and overly exaggerate how it's going kill WoW or TOR or any mmo. Everyone should take it down a notch or you're just going to end up disappointing yourselves. I can see its happening to a few people already. Arenanet has given out info on the features and mechanics currently in the game for the past few months and from what was shown at demo, they delivered the promises. For the people who said that Arenanet didn't deliver the promises, I think you're expecting too much. What they have stated is currently in the game. Don't try to assume more or dig deeper into it. Stop with the high expectations you are already causing yourselves disappointment. If you don't like all the things you have seen, then please move on and stop wasting your time following this game.
I always found the comparisons made to AOC in regard to WOW, funny and untruthful. It's an even bigger leap to compare what we've seen of GW2 to WOW. How this game plays seems to be a giant leap away from the tried and true WOW/EQ mechanics of yester-year.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Sure and I usually really don't comment since I've grown quite cynical towards MMO's the past years.
But for some reason MMO releases have thought people not to have any expectations.
I'm sure you intend this to say that people should manage their own imagination not to disapoint themself and I can accept that.
Though the ability to have expecations is a treasured thing.
Expectation is tied to an expected level of qaulity/fun.
Do people expect the next Halo (as example) to be bad? Are they wrong to expect a good game for their money?
With a game that is tied to havings its playerbase commiting to the game each and every month expectations are more then relevant. There is a minimum of qaulity you expect.
It works for all games in the industry yet not for a MMO?
I don't mind the high hype, with the way this industry has evolved and specifically MMO's there aren't many ways to express our apreciation for a game. If nothing else a hype is more a message for developers then it is for customers.
The comparisons to Warhammer are superficial. People who compare the two are not wrong. Yes. They have quests which people work together, grouped or not, to do that go on in the world by themselves and everyone gets rewarded. But the important differences are in the details. The events do not happen on a timer, failing doesn't reset, but chains off in another direction, and the worlds is filled with them where many unrelated events (that are not all combat events) can occur in the same area. Not zone but within the same farm for example.
Someone explain the WoW influence? I know what it means, I just don't see how it applies here. It seems to me it's the thing to say these days to sound so like you're a wise and discriminating player. Every game is called a WoW clone or WoW influenced and there are games that really fit the bill (Runes of Magic and LOTRO), but it's use reflexively without thought, at least it seems to me, to what it really means.
So Guild Wars 2 is WoW influenced - why? There's a hotbar? Even that's different than the way other MMO's handle things and is more directly in line with the original since there's always a fixed number of abilities avaialble at a given time. Yes - you have more at your disposal, but there are only going to be approx. 10 available at the same time - you'll never have 20 abilities on the screen at once. Active dodging isn't in WoW. Yet again - I suppose in the most superficial way you can compare it to Wow, but you could compare to every single MMO out there then. Other than that I can't think of any substantive similarity.
I almost think that saying an MMO is a themepark MMO is pointless these days. You'll rarely find a "sandbox" game again and when one comes out, don't expect it to do well. That doesn't mean one can't be made, that is the most awesome sanddbox experience possible, but it will only be a niche game. There's nothing wrong with that. Niche games cater to a specific audience and don't have to worry about catering to everyone since their playerbase is fairly monolithic.
Perhaps it is because GW2 will be in an open world?
If that is the case, then I feel sorry for the poor soul who thinks Blizzard invented the Open World :
Actually, I still think it sad that so many people think that WoW began the genre, and/or that WoW invented many of the things we see in MMO's today.
I'd like to remind those poor, deluded people, that WoW was a big, well-refined rip-off of the ideas that set apart 'smaller' MMO's before it, the biggest rips of which came from Everquest.
Blizzard really took ideas from others, refined those ideas, and added on to them. : Remember that, you poor deluded fools who think WoW is the begin all-end all.
Also, I agree that many throw the term "WoW Clone" around far too reflexively these days. Chill out, sit back, wait and see what happens. You may be pleasantly surprised.
That or some peoples perception is far too jaded by past experiences to see change :
And yes, there are some things shown about GW2 which bug me, but I'll wait and see what happens. They're still adding and balancing, refining what they have, which is already full of eye-candy. But really, do not expect GW2 to be the next WoW. I expect it to be tremendously popular, but the floodgates have already been opened. You can't exactly open what is already opened without it first being closed, which hasn't yet happened. Not even sure how it WOULD be closed.
But still, the idea of having 50 players in the vicinity of an event causing a massive battle against an army of foes rather than the usual little groups? That's too good a concept to pass up for me
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
There more than likely will never be another WoW, for many reasons.
MMOs are mainstream now. When WoW came out, millions of people didn't play a single MMO. A quarter million was thought to be a huge success. Also, most MMOs didn't have the polish and ease of play that WoW did. They brought single player game asthetics to the MMO and the ability for people to play effectively outside of a group. WoW introduced millions of people to MMOs, many of which still play WoW to this day. Many will continue to play WoW for years, maybe leaving the game at times, but always going back. Most successful MMOs have this core of players, but WoW just has a bigger core.
So no game will replace it, be the next big thing - Blizzard was at the right place, at the right time, with the right product.
It's not there can't be a game that is better. It has nothing to do with better, but everything to do with change of the MMO market from a niche to one where every game publisher is trying to make their mark.
Guild Wars 2 can fit the bill for what people would consider the "WoW killer" but it won't be. And no other game will either. It can't happen anymore and I don't think it ever could.
*DISCLAIMER*: I have read up on every feature, and every single article/interview, and/or looked for translations of interviews that relate to Guild Wars 2. All of what I say below does not mean I don't look forward to Guild Wars 2, because I honestly cannot wait for it's release. It's merely my point of view of the hype of the game, and commentaries on what people seem to expect this game to be, both good and bad. Read at your own discression.
First, I will say that those claiming there is nothing new in GW2 and are just comparing it to WoW are being retarded. WoW is not the holy grail of MMOs. However, it was the first MMO that mashed together features from various MMOs and brought it up to a high level of quality. Everything you see in WoW was introduced in an MMO at some point in the past. Blizzard has a habbit of taking ideas from other companies and implementing it to their own game.
Essentially, Anet is doing the same thing. Anet is basically taking the buggy, incomplete, or also good ideas from other games (AoC, WAR, CoH etc.) and putting their own spin on it. Not only that, but Anet is looking beyond the MMO genre at other types of games (FPS, Single-Player RPGs, etc.). No this does not mean that GW2 is just a WoW 2.0 with features from modern day MMOs. It just means that it's Anet's turn to compile all the best ideas from recent MMOs and put them into a game with a high level of polish. I mean they put their own spin on them, so as to keep their philosophy of skill > time. PvP is see as being of the skill required in GW1 with features from other MMOs, again with Anet's own twist on them.
However, there is no way GW2 will overtake WoW. Honestly, even if I'm a GW2 fanboi, I do not want that to happen. I like having a smaller big MMO, rather than having a gigantic MMO such as WoW. OK yes I do play WoW. The only way WoW is going to be brought down is if blizzard just shuts the servers off. And even then... private servers will still live on. I don't even think Blizzard's next-gen MMO will be able to overtake the shadow of it's predecessor.
True but there is still some potenial in the mmo market. As mainstream as WoW is a very large majority of gamers still hate it due to the "boring combat", "grind" and the many sterotypes that plague WoW players. Like wise in Asia their are similarily popular games as WoW with the competition making comparable amounts of money as WoW does now.
Consoles is also an avenue of which the person who mainstreams an mmo first could possible make a huge amount of money. There is potenial financial growth for mmo's but mmo developers need to start thinking outside the box.
Ironically it's actually probably still possible to further mainstream mmo's. You would expect that the PS2 or the xbox 360 would be about as mainstream as gaming would become and then came the Wii and took mainstreaming to a whole new level. What this genre needs is ingenuity something which it sorely lacks.
I agree completely.
To clarify more, I don't think there will be another juggernaut product that will dwarf the competition with the numbers that WoW dwarfed it's competition.