But for many a solid story DOES make a MMO. The MMORPG community needs to realise the secret of a good solid mmorpg is NOT to try to cater to every single playstyle. But rather to specialise in an area. Yes there are people who want total freeform platforms where the game mechanics are just mechanics and the players determine their own reasons for where they go and why (much as Ultima Online did) others prefer the more structured model by which your given reasons to go to said dungeon or new area the game guides you along with lore and story to encourage you along (this model was utlised by EverQuest).
SWTOR is taking the story driven model to the next level and as this is the primary dtyle used by Bioware in ALL of its games why are you suprised ? An IP like Star Wars cries out for structure and purpose its based on an IP which has been developed for story driven media initially films and later books and comics. SWG initially focused on a freeform sandbox delivery with themepark areas and as its still running if thats what you want you already have it.
SWTOR is for those players who want something different. Its for the players who want to feel as if they are part of the major events. The Luke Skywalkers the Han Solos the Boba Fett. Its for the people who want to feel part of the story to feel the events shifting around them as they take centre stage. You can't have that in a sandbox, in a sandbox the very freedom your given prevents the developers from developing deep storylines and involving you in them. Only be limiting you can a developer plan big large scale story plots.
Think about it. Star Wars the orginal film has a young newbie character setting off on his intial adventure. The backstory has him in a farm. He buys some droids and one of them goes missing. his first quest is to find the missing droid. Of he goes, he encounters some sand people and finds the droids. ADuring the encounter he is helped by a NPC which arrives after a set interval in the scene. This NPC introduces some more plot and storyline and a cut scene of them finding the remians of his Uncle and Aunt. Form here further choices are offered and decsions made. This enables the developer to bring you into the story and invest yourself into the lore. Your not an observer of major events your a participant.
I believe that without a deep and engaging storyline you cannot truly have the Star Wars experience. Yes you could freely fly around the star Wars universe killing different things on different planets but without a story without a plot your just doing random things randomly. Without purpose and ultimatly pointless. With a plot though your fighting with a cause you have a reason. A good story driven mmorpg can have you forgetting about levels and exprieince instead your eager to see whats happenign next what adveture will you partake in. Levels will come when they come there is no rush if your having fun.
As Yoda would say "Story does not an MMO, make.", sorry but all of you that use that argument on why this game is innovative don't have anything to fall back on, story does not make an MMO. People skip the story of an MMO usually, full VO will not change that. Bioware should have just made KOTOR 3 at this point and not an MMO.
Being that Yoda is the type to think his words out before he said something, he is unlikely to say anything to that extent.
As for the game itself. yeah the story is the biggest selling point because players of MMOs have always said theres no story in MMOs anymore, all it is, is kill X return to Y, get Z return back to Y.
So Bioware of course replied back with the normal response, Our game brings back the one thing that has been lacking over the years, a story people will actually care about and (as Bioware normally does) have a choice in what happens in that story.
People always said they wanted a story or something more then just kill X and retrieve Y, and now when they get it, people make comments like yours? This is what they mean when they say you can not make everyone happy all the time.
Bioware is trying to put story back into the MMORPGs they are not saying that all there is, is story, if you had read any of the news about the game you'd know that. So i'll help you out here in case you didn't know where the site for the game was : www.swtor.com/
You can go ahead and pump that into your address bar at the top of your web browser and read everything there.
You'll see that the game is way more then just a story, it's an actual MMO like most other MMOs and also has a story to boot.
One point i forgot to address, most people skip the story because of three reasons: 1 They want action all the time 2. They already heard the story or 3. The story is not interesting.
Most MMOs fall into this third category and those that do read the story in games tend to fall into the 2nd one after the first playthrough. Finally most people skip the story because they feel rushed from other players to go, go, go and read the story later or never. I have had several experiences where i wanted to read the story but was told that i couldn't or otherwise be left out of the group, thus exp, thus items, thus progression. If all of the group is part of the story i believe this will be different.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
You never should have decided to make a MMO in the first place, because in my very personal opinion, you have no clue what makes a MMO.
This was my first thought when I heard about this game. I love kotor 1 and 2, and many other Bioware games. But really When I heard they were going to be joining the MMO world, and came out talking like they know what they are doing it just turned me off to this game completly.
They make singleplayer RPGs they like single player RPGs they don't like MMOs, clearly because they think everyone is dong it wrong. What am I expecting to get from this game? a single player RPG that I can talk to my firends while playing.
Every game bioware makes is almost 100% the same game at it's core with a different IP and story I do not expect this to be anything different.
------------------------------------------------- Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
I wonder if you can quit a game that isn't even there yet. Quite pathetic, you may say. And yes, you can have my stuff... wait. There isn't yet any there.
Be that as it is, I need this as a sort of spiritual hygene. I feel I need to wash myself of the dirt, ash from flaming and other less than healthy substances my mind has caught while dealing with TOR.
You know, I am a Star Wars fan as long as SW exists. And yes, while we all have our different approaches and we all love different things about Star Wars, I always felt, what made our fandom great was, everyone could be who or what he wanted. We didn't have any prejudices against anyone's personal approach to Star Wars. For me, SW, as in contrast to Star Trek, always mean a vast galaxy, tens of thousands of worlds and intelligent species, an endless plethora of really different settings. Not like Trek, where essentially all aliens are humans with odd ears or foreheads and all cultures are just a copy of some earth historical cultre. No, SW was dirty, diverse and dark.
SWTOR is none of it. It's bright coloured like WOW in space, it's narrow and streamlined at every possible way. Now for two years I tried to fight for a better SWTOR. And while sure not every single wish can be manifested, I am just DONE with the arrogance of the developers and the arrogance of the fans. There comes a time and point when you realize, this game is not for you and never will. It is a sort of a heartbreaking realization for me, since SW is my greatest fandom for 25 years, and I dived into the depths of everything SW for a long time. I feel sort of like the old Jolee Bindo, when he was asked why he left the Jedi Order, and Jolee answered: "It left me." And so it is with TOR. SWTOR developed into some beast, I don't feel at home anymore.
The list of things TOR does NOT have did grow considerably faster than the list of things we know we CAN do. It's like cutting a dream away, slice by slice, until there is nothing left by the shell of a SW game. I am too tired to go into all the details. The cuts and limitations have been discussed enough, and after 4-5 years of MMOs with broken promises, of ignoring their fans and endlessly making us wait for the "all made nice miracle patch", I am just tired and worn out. I trusted game companies time and again, always buying the games with the hope they will make it better later. They never did. They took the money and essentially ran off with it. In every single case of the last MMORPGs published the last few years, and I can't take that sort of disappointment anymore. Not in Star Wars.
So I am taking my leave from this game. I won't but it. You, Bioware, have cut down the great dream of Star Wars and narrowed it to the one strength you undeniably have: storytelling. And for me, that is just not good enough. You never should have decided to make a MMO in the first place, because in my very personal opinion, you have no clue what makes a MMO. What you are doing is the same Cryptic did with Champions and STO. You know the IP hype alone with pay via the box sales, give or take a few lifetimers and some months keeping people with promises, and then you have your share. Star Wars doesn't mean heck to you, and I am sorry to say, you never ever should have gotten that IP into your hands. Seeing how you broke this great fantasy is indeed heartbreaking for a SW fan like me. In the end, it leaves me with bitterness and the sour taste of another mediocre MMO, and SW really would have deserved a greater vision than the narrow human-only-storytelling Procrustes Bed you are making of it. Your vision is narrow, and reading such arrogant wording like Mr. Erickson ("we know better that people can't relate to freak characters") just shows me you have zero humility towards the IP and you have that same arrogance which was the downfall of all your predessecors in MMOs.
Fine. Have it your way. But your way of making Star Wars isn't mine.
[Mod Edit]
Dude its ok to not like a game but to be so intimately and emotionally attached is kinda silly. Also if you want to be taken seriously please at least make a title for the thread that makes sense. I usually don't flame but this is crazy. This thread is fail.
I wonder if you can quit a game that isn't even there yet. Quite pathetic, you may say. And yes, you can have my stuff... wait. There isn't yet any there.
Be that as it is, I need this as a sort of spiritual hygene. I feel I need to wash myself of the dirt, ash from flaming and other less than healthy substances my mind has caught while dealing with TOR.
You know, I am a Star Wars fan as long as SW exists. And yes, while we all have our different approaches and we all love different things about Star Wars, I always felt, what made our fandom great was, everyone could be who or what he wanted. We didn't have any prejudices against anyone's personal approach to Star Wars. For me, SW, as in contrast to Star Trek, always mean a vast galaxy, tens of thousands of worlds and intelligent species, an endless plethora of really different settings. Not like Trek, where essentially all aliens are humans with odd ears or foreheads and all cultures are just a copy of some earth historical cultre. No, SW was dirty, diverse and dark.
SWTOR is none of it. It's bright coloured like WOW in space, it's narrow and streamlined at every possible way. Now for two years I tried to fight for a better SWTOR. And while sure not every single wish can be manifested, I am just DONE with the arrogance of the developers and the arrogance of the fans. There comes a time and point when you realize, this game is not for you and never will. It is a sort of a heartbreaking realization for me, since SW is my greatest fandom for 25 years, and I dived into the depths of everything SW for a long time. I feel sort of like the old Jolee Bindo, when he was asked why he left the Jedi Order, and Jolee answered: "It left me." And so it is with TOR. SWTOR developed into some beast, I don't feel at home anymore.
The list of things TOR does NOT have did grow considerably faster than the list of things we know we CAN do. It's like cutting a dream away, slice by slice, until there is nothing left by the shell of a SW game. I am too tired to go into all the details. The cuts and limitations have been discussed enough, and after 4-5 years of MMOs with broken promises, of ignoring their fans and endlessly making us wait for the "all made nice miracle patch", I am just tired and worn out. I trusted game companies time and again, always buying the games with the hope they will make it better later. They never did. They took the money and essentially ran off with it. In every single case of the last MMORPGs published the last few years, and I can't take that sort of disappointment anymore. Not in Star Wars.
So I am taking my leave from this game. I won't but it. You, Bioware, have cut down the great dream of Star Wars and narrowed it to the one strength you undeniably have: storytelling. And for me, that is just not good enough. You never should have decided to make a MMO in the first place, because in my very personal opinion, you have no clue what makes a MMO. What you are doing is the same Cryptic did with Champions and STO. You know the IP hype alone with pay via the box sales, give or take a few lifetimers and some months keeping people with promises, and then you have your share. Star Wars doesn't mean heck to you, and I am sorry to say, you never ever should have gotten that IP into your hands. Seeing how you broke this great fantasy is indeed heartbreaking for a SW fan like me. In the end, it leaves me with bitterness and the sour taste of another mediocre MMO, and SW really would have deserved a greater vision than the narrow human-only-storytelling Procrustes Bed you are making of it. Your vision is narrow, and reading such arrogant wording like Mr. Erickson ("we know better that people can't relate to freak characters") just shows me you have zero humility towards the IP and you have that same arrogance which was the downfall of all your predessecors in MMOs.
Fine. Have it your way. But your way of making Star Wars isn't mine.
[Mod Edit]
Unintentional comedy is the best kind of comedy. Thanks for the lulz, OP.
BTW, pretty pumped for this game, especially after seeing the PAX footage.
You never should have decided to make a MMO in the first place, because in my very personal opinion, you have no clue what makes a MMO.
This was my first thought when I heard about this game. I love kotor 1 and 2, and many other Bioware games. But really When I heard they were going to be joining the MMO world, and came out talking like they know what they are doing it just turned me off to this game completly.
They make singleplayer RPGs they like single player RPGs they don't like MMOs, clearly because they think everyone is dong it wrong. What am I expecting to get from this game? a single player RPG that I can talk to my firends while playing.
Every game bioware makes is almost 100% the same game at it's core with a different IP and story I do not expect this to be anything different.
Before saying that all they should do is stick with SPRG games, maybe we should give them a chance, I'm pretty sure if it turns out bad they'll return to what they was already great at. Anyways, you go ahead and make a single player experience out of it, your loss.
I hear you OP, SWTOR still has yet to prove to me it's really a MMO and not just a singleplayer game with grouping. Sorry for me an MMO is about getting together with other players and overcoming some force you can't do alone, I have yet to see this in SWTOR. '
Yeah yeah... I know someone will say flashpoints. You know diablo and GW had group missions too, still does make them MMOs to me(and alot of others).
Even with that said I still plan on buying the game but i won't be treating it like a MMO. I am planing on rushing threw the classes I care about in about 1 - 2 months and quiting just like I do with the rest of the single player games.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
You never should have decided to make a MMO in the first place, because in my very personal opinion, you have no clue what makes a MMO.
This was my first thought when I heard about this game. I love kotor 1 and 2, and many other Bioware games. But really When I heard they were going to be joining the MMO world, and came out talking like they know what they are doing it just turned me off to this game completly.
They make singleplayer RPGs they like single player RPGs they don't like MMOs, clearly because they think everyone is dong it wrong. What am I expecting to get from this game? a single player RPG that I can talk to my firends while playing.
Every game bioware makes is almost 100% the same game at it's core with a different IP and story I do not expect this to be anything different.
Before saying that all they should do is stick with SPRG games, maybe we should give them a chance, I'm pretty sure if it turns out bad they'll return to what they was already great at. Anyways, you go ahead and make a single player experience out of it, your loss.
How would it be my loss I bet it would be an amazing single player experiance because they are good at it.
------------------------------------------------- Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
You can't develop an MMO in a traditional game-studio culture
" Surprisingly, many of the more high-profile MMO failures were developed by the largest, most well established publishers in the industry. These projects had the benefit of solid financing, large teams, established IPs, and proven development methodologies that had been refined over decades of developing successful games in other genres. What happened? You can certainly make a list of everything that went wrong – the game industry is full of "armchair generals" who would love to do so for you – but ultimately the quality of a game is determined by the development culture that created it, and creating a successful MMO requires a radically different development culture than the culture optimized to produce traditional video games. While these large publishers have refined the process of creating traditional video games to an art, many of them have not yet realized that an MMO requires a completely different development process, and a studio culture to compliment that process. "
" Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero. The best games, MMO or otherwise, are created first and foremost to be games, and the world, story, and setting are there to serve that end, not the other way around. It seems like I hear about a new MMO in development based on a sci-fi or fantasy license every week, and it worries me tremendously. "
You can't develop an MMO in a traditional game-studio culture
" Surprisingly, many of the more high-profile MMO failures were developed by the largest, most well established publishers in the industry. These projects had the benefit of solid financing, large teams, established IPs, and proven development methodologies that had been refined over decades of developing successful games in other genres. What happened? You can certainly make a list of everything that went wrong – the game industry is full of "armchair generals" who would love to do so for you – but ultimately the quality of a game is determined by the development culture that created it, and creating a successful MMO requires a radically different development culture than the culture optimized to produce traditional video games. While these large publishers have refined the process of creating traditional video games to an art, many of them have not yet realized that an MMO requires a completely different development process, and a studio culture to compliment that process. "
" Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero. The best games, MMO or otherwise, are created first and foremost to be games, and the world, story, and setting are there to serve that end, not the other way around. It seems like I hear about a new MMO in development based on a sci-fi or fantasy license every week, and it worries me tremendously. "
... For one, take everything there with a grain of salt, thats not an industry standard article. Second, its taken from GuildWars.com .... Guild Wars... who created a "corpg" instead of an MMO. They have yet to create a successful "MMO". Also, this entire article falls apart when they start with not developing a game in a traditional video game culture (which WoW was built in) and ending with budgetary problems for trying to accomplish WoW 2.0.
This has absolutely no bearing on what TOR is doing, and as they are made up of many developers who have come from successful MMOs, along with one of the largest game publishers, and the largest purported budget we've seen to date, the last thing they need to do is invent a game based on something the founders of arenanet wrote.
GW2 will turn out to be a great game, but these games are in two entirely different genres. These games will barely be competing with eachother, much less taking the same ideologies with them. Strangely enough there are many similar features between the two games.
The fanbois of this game are more disgusting than any of the past failed MMO fanbois that I have seen in the last 5 years. I hope this game burns terribly and the fanbois are left with terrible burn scars from the money that they wasted once everyone quits after the first month (Probably by going back to wow, as this game pretty much looks like wow in space anyways and if people wanted to play wow, they would play wow.).
You know, the saddest thing is, we are have repeated this experience in a fashion like "Groundhog Day" the last 5 years over and over. It is always the same. When a MMO is in beta, the warnings are on the table. Every single time. Be it Vanguard or Warhammer, Age of Conan, Champions Online, Star Trek or Aion. There were always those who saw the flaws when there was still time to remedy it. and what did they get?
Mockery, flaming, harrassment from the fanbois. And then, fast forward one year, everyone realized the worst critique had come true. And then, ZIP, the clock is set back to 7 AM with the next MMO in beta and the entire thing starts anew, and the audience is puzzled why Phil Conners knows it all.
It is the same here, with one difference. It isn't funny.
Last time I checked, TOR was not in any form of public beta or even giving out invites to the general public. And that is the root of the argument. All the community has to go on are limited play reports at conventions. We are far from the NDA breaking beta reports from AOC or WAR or the like.
Everything, at this point, is still close to pure speculation and nobody really knows how the game will play out. In other words, 99% of the "complaints" and hate is based simply on conjecture and opinion, not based on people's personal experiences and lots of time playing.
You have my word, when new facts surface which alter the judgement, I will be the first to chance my opinion. But ti doesn't help with critique to wait a few days before release, because then there is no time to change or add things anymore.
Umm dude there isnt even a guess on the release date and you already think its to late to change or add anything? You deffinitly are making pure guesses. Everyone whos played MMO's knows that nothing is set in stone untill a release date is issued which BioWare has yet to do.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
You can't develop an MMO in a traditional game-studio culture
" Surprisingly, many of the more high-profile MMO failures were developed by the largest, most well established publishers in the industry. These projects had the benefit of solid financing, large teams, established IPs, and proven development methodologies that had been refined over decades of developing successful games in other genres. What happened? You can certainly make a list of everything that went wrong – the game industry is full of "armchair generals" who would love to do so for you – but ultimately the quality of a game is determined by the development culture that created it, and creating a successful MMO requires a radically different development culture than the culture optimized to produce traditional video games. While these large publishers have refined the process of creating traditional video games to an art, many of them have not yet realized that an MMO requires a completely different development process, and a studio culture to compliment that process. "
" Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero. The best games, MMO or otherwise, are created first and foremost to be games, and the world, story, and setting are there to serve that end, not the other way around. It seems like I hear about a new MMO in development based on a sci-fi or fantasy license every week, and it worries me tremendously. "
Umm where did you copy this from? There are plenty of big companies making MMO's that do not fail Blizzard, Ncsoft, SE have successful games. They are also are some of the biggest in the industry. To combat your thoery on the fmedia not being good candidates for MMOs, every good MMO needs a story. So why not take the story from one already told? Starwars games some of the most success in the biz so I find it hard to believe that this game will end that trend. The Starwars franchise has proven to be on of the most diverse and re-inventive story -line out there. The amount of books, movies, and game spin-offs is astounding, especially with each having their own success. This game will be no different.
Starwars has the un-fair advantage of having one of the greatest and oldest stories ever told. So its only natural to want to be apart of it world and lore. Starwars will be just fine and threre is no need to be worried.
You can't develop an MMO in a traditional game-studio culture
" Surprisingly, many of the more high-profile MMO failures were developed by the largest, most well established publishers in the industry. These projects had the benefit of solid financing, large teams, established IPs, and proven development methodologies that had been refined over decades of developing successful games in other genres. What happened? You can certainly make a list of everything that went wrong – the game industry is full of "armchair generals" who would love to do so for you – but ultimately the quality of a game is determined by the development culture that created it, and creating a successful MMO requires a radically different development culture than the culture optimized to produce traditional video games. While these large publishers have refined the process of creating traditional video games to an art, many of them have not yet realized that an MMO requires a completely different development process, and a studio culture to compliment that process. "
" Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero. The best games, MMO or otherwise, are created first and foremost to be games, and the world, story, and setting are there to serve that end, not the other way around. It seems like I hear about a new MMO in development based on a sci-fi or fantasy license every week, and it worries me tremendously. "
... For one, take everything there with a grain of salt, thats not an industry standard article. Second, its taken from GuildWars.com .... Guild Wars... who created a "corpg" instead of an MMO. They have yet to create a successful "MMO". Also, this entire article falls apart when they start with not developing a game in a traditional video game culture (which WoW was built in) and ending with budgetary problems for trying to accomplish WoW 2.0.
This has absolutely no bearing on what TOR is doing, and as they are made up of many developers who have come from successful MMOs, along with one of the largest game publishers, and the largest purported budget we've seen to date, the last thing they need to do is invent a game based on something the founders of arenanet wrote.
GW2 will turn out to be a great game, but these games are in two entirely different genres. These games will barely be competing with eachother, much less taking the same ideologies with them. Strangely enough there are many similar features between the two games.
Yeah I dunno why Grazzul posted that in here, seems kinda odd. But I did want to ask you what you meant by "these games are in two entirely different genres"? GW2 and TOR are both MMOs.
OP: Some things that have been revealed about TOR has brought down my interest a bit as well, but completely deciding not to play a game before even playing it or waiting for release to try it seems overly hasty, but it is your choice to do so. It just seems so many in the community, and not just this one, rate games far before they are released and decide to play them or not months before. I don't know when this started to happen in gaming, but it makes a lot of the community look like the "gimme gimme gimme" type. Just my thoughts.
Bioware's one strength is storytelling, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the story they have to tell is worth listening to, it just means they know how to communicate it effectively and immerse their players within the storyline. The storytelling for Mass Effect and Dragon Age is quite well done... the content of the stories... eh, not so much. I haven't had any high hopes for this game since they released their first screenshots, and the subsequent and predictable pipleline of WoW-clone game features pretty much sealed the deal.
Sorry, i had no intent of bringing up GW2 with that article.
I just thought it was interesting, and it was written by Jeff Strain, former founder of Arenanet,
Its alright, I brought up GW2, I was just pointing out that, at the time of this article, arenanet only released their (CORPG) which they themselves didn't consider an MMO, I just thought it was an interesting take seeing as how I found some of it contradictory as well as the company that purposely didn't call their game an MMO giving tips on how to create a successful MMO.
GW2 looks great though, but it hasn't launched yet to be successful. It was an interesting article though
ToR was never even meant to be an actual game, follow the money.
The reason for the extra years delay is so Lucasarts can save some face with this fiasco.
Johnny boy made out like a bandit(Bono as well).
This game was a scam from the get go.
I'm having trouble deciphering whether this is a joke or not..... so I'll just take it as a joke.
Elevation Partners, start your search from there.
.... sometimes this community is just... unbelievable. Ridiculous... and unbelievable...
i have to agree with you maskedweasel, kb056 has absolutely no clue what hes talking about. no one is going to throw away $40 million on a design idea that never will happen especially when you have a company like Electronic Arts backing up the idea. to Kb056 I dont know what your on to think the way you do so can i have some of it, it must be nice to live in a world of false conspiracy theroies and delusions.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
You can't develop an MMO in a traditional game-studio culture
" Surprisingly, many of the more high-profile MMO failures were developed by the largest, most well established publishers in the industry. These projects had the benefit of solid financing, large teams, established IPs, and proven development methodologies that had been refined over decades of developing successful games in other genres. What happened? You can certainly make a list of everything that went wrong – the game industry is full of "armchair generals" who would love to do so for you – but ultimately the quality of a game is determined by the development culture that created it, and creating a successful MMO requires a radically different development culture than the culture optimized to produce traditional video games. While these large publishers have refined the process of creating traditional video games to an art, many of them have not yet realized that an MMO requires a completely different development process, and a studio culture to compliment that process. "
" Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero. The best games, MMO or otherwise, are created first and foremost to be games, and the world, story, and setting are there to serve that end, not the other way around. It seems like I hear about a new MMO in development based on a sci-fi or fantasy license every week, and it worries me tremendously. "
... For one, take everything there with a grain of salt, thats not an industry standard article. Second, its taken from GuildWars.com .... Guild Wars... who created a "corpg" instead of an MMO. They have yet to create a successful "MMO". Also, this entire article falls apart when they start with not developing a game in a traditional video game culture (which WoW was built in) and ending with budgetary problems for trying to accomplish WoW 2.0.
This has absolutely no bearing on what TOR is doing, and as they are made up of many developers who have come from successful MMOs, along with one of the largest game publishers, and the largest purported budget we've seen to date, the last thing they need to do is invent a game based on something the founders of arenanet wrote.
GW2 will turn out to be a great game, but these games are in two entirely different genres. These games will barely be competing with eachother, much less taking the same ideologies with them. Strangely enough there are many similar features between the two games.
Yeah I dunno why Grazzul posted that in here, seems kinda odd. But I did want to ask you what you meant by "these games are in two entirely different genres"? GW2 and TOR are both MMOs.
OP: Some things that have been revealed about TOR has brought down my interest a bit as well, but completely deciding not to play a game before even playing it or waiting for release to try it seems overly hasty, but it is your choice to do so. It just seems so many in the community, and not just this one, rate games far before they are released and decide to play them or not months before. I don't know when this started to happen in gaming, but it makes a lot of the community look like the "gimme gimme gimme" type. Just my thoughts.
I think I misused the word genre there, theme would be the word I should have used, one is high fantasy, the other is science fiction, Ones based on a completely open IP the other is very strongly geared towards a long line of established lore. The focus is very different for each game, the progression system which goes along with their payment models. These are two very different game models.
You can't develop an MMO in a traditional game-studio culture
" Surprisingly, many of the more high-profile MMO failures were developed by the largest, most well established publishers in the industry. These projects had the benefit of solid financing, large teams, established IPs, and proven development methodologies that had been refined over decades of developing successful games in other genres. What happened? You can certainly make a list of everything that went wrong – the game industry is full of "armchair generals" who would love to do so for you – but ultimately the quality of a game is determined by the development culture that created it, and creating a successful MMO requires a radically different development culture than the culture optimized to produce traditional video games. While these large publishers have refined the process of creating traditional video games to an art, many of them have not yet realized that an MMO requires a completely different development process, and a studio culture to compliment that process. "
" Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero. The best games, MMO or otherwise, are created first and foremost to be games, and the world, story, and setting are there to serve that end, not the other way around. It seems like I hear about a new MMO in development based on a sci-fi or fantasy license every week, and it worries me tremendously. "
Umm where did you copy this from? There are plenty of big companies making MMO's that do not fail Blizzard, Ncsoft, SE have successful games. They are also are some of the biggest in the industry. To combat your thoery on the fmedia not being good candidates for MMOs, every good MMO needs a story. So why not take the story from one already told? Starwars games some of the most success in the biz so I find it hard to believe that this game will end that trend. The Starwars franchise has proven to be on of the most diverse and re-inventive story -line out there. The amount of books, movies, and game spin-offs is astounding, especially with each having their own success. This game will be no different.
Starwars has the un-fair advantage of having one of the greatest and oldest stories ever told. So its only natural to want to be apart of it world and lore. Starwars will be just fine and threre is no need to be worried.
Star Wars is one of the oldest and greatest stories ever told... for real, dude? And saying Star Wars is going to be a blockbuster success because of its licensing ignores the fact of... which game again...? Oh yeah, Star Wars Galaxies. (along with many, many others.)
I see, no worries. And yes, you are very much correct on how different, business-wise the two games are. I'm hoping both do very well next year and onward.
Comments
But for many a solid story DOES make a MMO. The MMORPG community needs to realise the secret of a good solid mmorpg is NOT to try to cater to every single playstyle. But rather to specialise in an area. Yes there are people who want total freeform platforms where the game mechanics are just mechanics and the players determine their own reasons for where they go and why (much as Ultima Online did) others prefer the more structured model by which your given reasons to go to said dungeon or new area the game guides you along with lore and story to encourage you along (this model was utlised by EverQuest).
SWTOR is taking the story driven model to the next level and as this is the primary dtyle used by Bioware in ALL of its games why are you suprised ? An IP like Star Wars cries out for structure and purpose its based on an IP which has been developed for story driven media initially films and later books and comics. SWG initially focused on a freeform sandbox delivery with themepark areas and as its still running if thats what you want you already have it.
SWTOR is for those players who want something different. Its for the players who want to feel as if they are part of the major events. The Luke Skywalkers the Han Solos the Boba Fett. Its for the people who want to feel part of the story to feel the events shifting around them as they take centre stage. You can't have that in a sandbox, in a sandbox the very freedom your given prevents the developers from developing deep storylines and involving you in them. Only be limiting you can a developer plan big large scale story plots.
Think about it. Star Wars the orginal film has a young newbie character setting off on his intial adventure. The backstory has him in a farm. He buys some droids and one of them goes missing. his first quest is to find the missing droid. Of he goes, he encounters some sand people and finds the droids. ADuring the encounter he is helped by a NPC which arrives after a set interval in the scene. This NPC introduces some more plot and storyline and a cut scene of them finding the remians of his Uncle and Aunt. Form here further choices are offered and decsions made. This enables the developer to bring you into the story and invest yourself into the lore. Your not an observer of major events your a participant.
I believe that without a deep and engaging storyline you cannot truly have the Star Wars experience. Yes you could freely fly around the star Wars universe killing different things on different planets but without a story without a plot your just doing random things randomly. Without purpose and ultimatly pointless. With a plot though your fighting with a cause you have a reason. A good story driven mmorpg can have you forgetting about levels and exprieince instead your eager to see whats happenign next what adveture will you partake in. Levels will come when they come there is no rush if your having fun.
Gadareth
Being that Yoda is the type to think his words out before he said something, he is unlikely to say anything to that extent.
As for the game itself. yeah the story is the biggest selling point because players of MMOs have always said theres no story in MMOs anymore, all it is, is kill X return to Y, get Z return back to Y.
So Bioware of course replied back with the normal response, Our game brings back the one thing that has been lacking over the years, a story people will actually care about and (as Bioware normally does) have a choice in what happens in that story.
People always said they wanted a story or something more then just kill X and retrieve Y, and now when they get it, people make comments like yours? This is what they mean when they say you can not make everyone happy all the time.
Bioware is trying to put story back into the MMORPGs they are not saying that all there is, is story, if you had read any of the news about the game you'd know that. So i'll help you out here in case you didn't know where the site for the game was : www.swtor.com/
You can go ahead and pump that into your address bar at the top of your web browser and read everything there.
You'll see that the game is way more then just a story, it's an actual MMO like most other MMOs and also has a story to boot.
One point i forgot to address, most people skip the story because of three reasons: 1 They want action all the time 2. They already heard the story or 3. The story is not interesting.
Most MMOs fall into this third category and those that do read the story in games tend to fall into the 2nd one after the first playthrough. Finally most people skip the story because they feel rushed from other players to go, go, go and read the story later or never. I have had several experiences where i wanted to read the story but was told that i couldn't or otherwise be left out of the group, thus exp, thus items, thus progression. If all of the group is part of the story i believe this will be different.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
This was my first thought when I heard about this game. I love kotor 1 and 2, and many other Bioware games. But really When I heard they were going to be joining the MMO world, and came out talking like they know what they are doing it just turned me off to this game completly.
They make singleplayer RPGs they like single player RPGs they don't like MMOs, clearly because they think everyone is dong it wrong. What am I expecting to get from this game? a single player RPG that I can talk to my firends while playing.
Every game bioware makes is almost 100% the same game at it's core with a different IP and story I do not expect this to be anything different.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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Dude its ok to not like a game but to be so intimately and emotionally attached is kinda silly. Also if you want to be taken seriously please at least make a title for the thread that makes sense. I usually don't flame but this is crazy. This thread is fail.
Unintentional comedy is the best kind of comedy. Thanks for the lulz, OP.
BTW, pretty pumped for this game, especially after seeing the PAX footage.
Before saying that all they should do is stick with SPRG games, maybe we should give them a chance, I'm pretty sure if it turns out bad they'll return to what they was already great at. Anyways, you go ahead and make a single player experience out of it, your loss.
I hear you OP, SWTOR still has yet to prove to me it's really a MMO and not just a singleplayer game with grouping. Sorry for me an MMO is about getting together with other players and overcoming some force you can't do alone, I have yet to see this in SWTOR. '
Yeah yeah... I know someone will say flashpoints. You know diablo and GW had group missions too, still does make them MMOs to me(and alot of others).
Even with that said I still plan on buying the game but i won't be treating it like a MMO. I am planing on rushing threw the classes I care about in about 1 - 2 months and quiting just like I do with the rest of the single player games.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
How would it be my loss I bet it would be an amazing single player experiance because they are good at it.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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The title of this thread reads like a 4chan meme.
ToR was never even meant to be an actual game, follow the money.
The reason for the extra years delay is so Lucasarts can save some face with this fiasco.
Johnny boy made out like a bandit(Bono as well).
This game was a scam from the get go.
I'm having trouble deciphering whether this is a joke or not..... so I'll just take it as a joke.
You can't develop an MMO in a traditional game-studio culture
" Surprisingly, many of the more high-profile MMO failures were developed by the largest, most well established publishers in the industry. These projects had the benefit of solid financing, large teams, established IPs, and proven development methodologies that had been refined over decades of developing successful games in other genres. What happened? You can certainly make a list of everything that went wrong – the game industry is full of "armchair generals" who would love to do so for you – but ultimately the quality of a game is determined by the development culture that created it, and creating a successful MMO requires a radically different development culture than the culture optimized to produce traditional video games. While these large publishers have refined the process of creating traditional video games to an art, many of them have not yet realized that an MMO requires a completely different development process, and a studio culture to compliment that process. "
" Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero. The best games, MMO or otherwise, are created first and foremost to be games, and the world, story, and setting are there to serve that end, not the other way around. It seems like I hear about a new MMO in development based on a sci-fi or fantasy license every week, and it worries me tremendously. "
http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php
... For one, take everything there with a grain of salt, thats not an industry standard article. Second, its taken from GuildWars.com .... Guild Wars... who created a "corpg" instead of an MMO. They have yet to create a successful "MMO". Also, this entire article falls apart when they start with not developing a game in a traditional video game culture (which WoW was built in) and ending with budgetary problems for trying to accomplish WoW 2.0.
This has absolutely no bearing on what TOR is doing, and as they are made up of many developers who have come from successful MMOs, along with one of the largest game publishers, and the largest purported budget we've seen to date, the last thing they need to do is invent a game based on something the founders of arenanet wrote.
GW2 will turn out to be a great game, but these games are in two entirely different genres. These games will barely be competing with eachother, much less taking the same ideologies with them. Strangely enough there are many similar features between the two games.
Elevation Partners, start your search from there.
Umm dude there isnt even a guess on the release date and you already think its to late to change or add anything? You deffinitly are making pure guesses. Everyone whos played MMO's knows that nothing is set in stone untill a release date is issued which BioWare has yet to do.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
.... sometimes this community is just... unbelievable. Ridiculous... and unbelievable...
Sorry, i had no intent of bringing up GW2 with that article.
I just thought it was interesting, and it was written by Jeff Strain, former founder of Arenanet,
Umm where did you copy this from? There are plenty of big companies making MMO's that do not fail Blizzard, Ncsoft, SE have successful games. They are also are some of the biggest in the industry. To combat your thoery on the fmedia not being good candidates for MMOs, every good MMO needs a story. So why not take the story from one already told? Starwars games some of the most success in the biz so I find it hard to believe that this game will end that trend. The Starwars franchise has proven to be on of the most diverse and re-inventive story -line out there. The amount of books, movies, and game spin-offs is astounding, especially with each having their own success. This game will be no different.
Starwars has the un-fair advantage of having one of the greatest and oldest stories ever told. So its only natural to want to be apart of it world and lore. Starwars will be just fine and threre is no need to be worried.
Yeah I dunno why Grazzul posted that in here, seems kinda odd. But I did want to ask you what you meant by "these games are in two entirely different genres"? GW2 and TOR are both MMOs.
OP: Some things that have been revealed about TOR has brought down my interest a bit as well, but completely deciding not to play a game before even playing it or waiting for release to try it seems overly hasty, but it is your choice to do so. It just seems so many in the community, and not just this one, rate games far before they are released and decide to play them or not months before. I don't know when this started to happen in gaming, but it makes a lot of the community look like the "gimme gimme gimme" type. Just my thoughts.
Bioware's one strength is storytelling, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the story they have to tell is worth listening to, it just means they know how to communicate it effectively and immerse their players within the storyline. The storytelling for Mass Effect and Dragon Age is quite well done... the content of the stories... eh, not so much. I haven't had any high hopes for this game since they released their first screenshots, and the subsequent and predictable pipleline of WoW-clone game features pretty much sealed the deal.
Its alright, I brought up GW2, I was just pointing out that, at the time of this article, arenanet only released their (CORPG) which they themselves didn't consider an MMO, I just thought it was an interesting take seeing as how I found some of it contradictory as well as the company that purposely didn't call their game an MMO giving tips on how to create a successful MMO.
GW2 looks great though, but it hasn't launched yet to be successful. It was an interesting article though
i have to agree with you maskedweasel, kb056 has absolutely no clue what hes talking about. no one is going to throw away $40 million on a design idea that never will happen especially when you have a company like Electronic Arts backing up the idea. to Kb056 I dont know what your on to think the way you do so can i have some of it, it must be nice to live in a world of false conspiracy theroies and delusions.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
I think I misused the word genre there, theme would be the word I should have used, one is high fantasy, the other is science fiction, Ones based on a completely open IP the other is very strongly geared towards a long line of established lore. The focus is very different for each game, the progression system which goes along with their payment models. These are two very different game models.
Star Wars is one of the oldest and greatest stories ever told... for real, dude? And saying Star Wars is going to be a blockbuster success because of its licensing ignores the fact of... which game again...? Oh yeah, Star Wars Galaxies. (along with many, many others.)
I see, no worries. And yes, you are very much correct on how different, business-wise the two games are. I'm hoping both do very well next year and onward.