"Eve is a perfect example of this. There is a vast non-PvP portion to the game ranging from mining, crafting, trading, etc, however there is still a considerable side of PvP with the game. There are no other games like Eve, and only one shared server for it, so there's only one ruleset. This is where problems occur, because different portions of the playerbase want different things. The PvEers generally want to PvE in peace, while many of the PvPers would love for all space to become zero sec so they could potententially hunt down and pod every single player..."
No....... Absolutely no, nobody in EVE can "PvE in peace" everything a player does affects every other player, they affect the economy and they devalue some items and inflate the cost of others, a mission runner will dump loyalty store items on the market which makes them cheaper and they inject minerals into the economy making those cheaper while items missions runners commonly use will go up in price.
So if they can affect me I should sure as hell be able to affect them in return.
Face, meet palm.
My point was that entirely excluding any PvP aspect of Eve, the game has several gameplay mechanics and aspects that players purely interested in PvE would, and do, enjoy. In fact, it's many of those PvE oriented players that keep the game's economy churning out new ships, weapons, and munitions for PvPers to blow each other up with.
Eve is a unique hybrid in that it needs both PvEers and PvPers to survive. Take away the PvP and the PvE quickly becomes meaningless. Take away the PvE and the PvP likewise becomes irrelevant. The point is that the two need to be balanced so that PvEers can do their PvE thing without being screwed every step of the way, hence why there is sec space.
Needing care bears is a fallacy many pvpers and lots of players have industrial alts and most production beyond basic T1 involves nullsec and wormhole space, moon materials and reactions come purely from low/nullsec and nullsec alliances tie up most of their production.
The skills for T1 production can be trained in a few weeks so again the carebears are 100% useless, even parasitic as the real players would benefit from better margins if the carbears disappeared.
We do agree on one thing though your post was fairly face>palm inducing.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
In case Being determines Consciousness, what sort of mentality can develop such individual?
“Education is the art of making man ethical.” (“Philosophy of Right”, Hegel).
What MMOs are teaching than?
In case Consciousness determines Being, what sort of a person/individual is a PKer?
“Be a person and respect others as persons.” (ibid)
Should MMO developers be more careful, and obligatory protect other players? Are PvP only MMORPGs with humanoid-PCs ethically justified?
I do not think that certain games could be directly related to RL criminal actions and I have nothing against controlled and artistic adult content in MMOs, but I am really puzzled with the growing numbers of rude anti-social MMO players (PKers, gankers, blockers, team-killers, etc.). I guess game developers should pay more attention to game design/content in this respect and consider what social impact their products might have.
What do you think?
I truly enjoy the role of gankers. I enjoy the challenge they set upon me, the challenge that I need to become stronger or smarter in order to block and counter their attack. Looking back at games I play (where I gravitate to the pvp servers) some of the best experiences I've had was those 1v1s while leveling or farming mats where it was an equal fight and skill determined the winner (and sometimes a little luck - RNG for the lose?). Those were fond memories.
I guess I should add that while I have ganked people in the past, I pretty much leave people be at this point. I tend to wait for people to initiate the fight nowadays.
If a game advertises ffa pvp and ffa pvp where people can be pk'ed/pk at any level then I would assume that players who don't mind this game play will want to play it.
In Lineage 2, if I saw a wartag I would pk them no matter the level. I would never bad mouth them or insult them, I would just take them out.
PKer is defined as someone who PvP's in a manner that ruins the gameplay of their victims. A completely different scenario than a free for all PvP game, where most people tend to fight others in the context of the game and don't grief specific individuals or areas for hours at a time.
Edit: Hence the reason why most people are called PvPers and certain individuals are labeled as PKers.
Well, whenever I was killed by a wartag or killed someone who was a war tag it was always called "pk". Player Kill.
I still stand by my statement which is that any game that has ffa pvp where any level can pk a significantly lower lvl player should only be played by the people who don't mind that type of thing.
I just don't understand why players who hate this type of thing would play a game where it was allowed?
I think they want the "experience" or "thrill" of that kind of environment, but don't want the "risk" of it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
To add a little more about gankers - I think gankers can be perfectly nice people in real life. I mean its not like they are ganking people in real life, right? They are playing an online game and doing it. Trully no harm done when the game allows ganking and player killing.
The question can a pk/ganker be a nice person in RL? The short answer for me is probably not. The same personality traits that cause an individual to get enjoyment from ganking someone are also the same traits that tend to make an individual self centered. That does not mean they cant be sociable and part of an "in" crowd, however, as people grow up and become adults and "in" crowds are not quite so important those same traits will usually cause that person to become lonely as people no longer have a social reason to hang out with them unless they change in some form or fashion.
I can't disagree with this post more. Dude, we're talking about games here! Seriously... I know several people in real life who are absolutely vicious in games. Yet, these same people are some of the nicest and most caring friends I have ever had.
Reality != game world.
Here is some logic that sums things up quite well.
A lot of gamers here seem to be in need of a serious reality check. These are bloody games, don't forget that.
At least it's a good way to spot posters you can imediately dismiss in other posts with such a warped reality sense. I wouldn't trust their judgement on anything after an insight to how they think, in this thread
Fibben, I don't even totally understand whos side you are on with this post, lol.
I think Anu saying that Reality != Game World is definitely true, but he is missing the point of why ganking would be looked at as stupid/wrong/annoying. Most people who do not like ganking and wish others would gank less do not think that the game world is reality, that is not why they think it is wrong; that is a strawman argument.
The game world is not reality. But the social interactions within the game are real interactions between real people, and therefore there can still be negative and positive interactions, and bring happiness or unhappiness to the users, and therefore there is a moral choice associated with social gaming. (Trash talk and PvP could be a positive interaction if both users accept it as so, etc).
Yes, it is true that interactions in MMOs are between real people. But, with the exception of cheaters, those interactions are never beyond the scope of a game and the rules that define it. When a gamer decides to play a game where non-consensual PvP is allowed, they are not justified to become overly upset when someone endulges in that type of activity. It is part of the game and should be expected as such. It's like someone playing Tekken in an arcade and getting pissed off that another player kicked their ass. Yeah its annoying and it cost them a quarter, but that's the game and that is what they should have expected the moment they started.
The reason why it is wrong would be that it is disrupting and annoying others with no positive reprocussion. You are being abnoxious for the sake of being abnoxious. The game is not real but the annoyance and loss of time that the gankee experience are real. Morally speaking (adopting a utilitarian viewpoint), you should probably avoid actions that cause others to feel annoyed or lose time, unless those actions also carry with it something positive that makes the action worthwhile.
I tend to agree with you when it comes to the morality of ganking players for the sole purpose of causing them grief. This behavior is asshole-ish and morally questionable, but still I feel there is a big difference between messing with another player in a video game and trying to ruin someone's day in real life. The post I was responding to originally was arguing that any PKer/ganker was probably a bad person in real life... an assertion that I whole-heartedly disagree with.
The action of ganking carries with it a positive feeling in the ganker, probably, which could be argued to be why ganking is morally OK. Yes it makes the other player feel annoyed and wastes their time, but that is within the confines of the game (and therefore they agreed to accept such transactions) and you as the ganker get a lot of pleasure out of ganking so the action is morally positive overall.
But we should probably look deeper into why the ganker gets pleasure out of ganking, which goes back to my last post... The ganker probably gets pleasure out of ganking because the ganker is a bit messed up in the head (not trying to insult; everyone is messed up in the head to some extent).
It doesnt take a lot of psychological hang-ups to get someone to enjoy ganking in a video game; after all, its just a game, and the moral situations we face in a game are insignificant to those we face every day in real life. It doesnt really matter much AT ALL, very very little. Which makes it much easier to make morally wrong choices, since it matters so little... Much like tossing a plastic bottle in the trash instead of recycling bin. Such a tiny thing; such a no-biggie.
But if we are only enjoying the ganking because we have low self esteem or some other mental hang-up, then that would arguably void the morality of the action. I think this is the case...
I don't agree. I think many people gank other players simply because they see them as an enemy in a video game and they enjoy the act of combatting real players more than NPCs. This is why I personally tend to love PvP. But then again, I am not the type of gamer who would go out of my way to try and ruin someone's day (the jury's still out on these folks). I usually look for relatively fair fights and, once the fight is over, I tend to leave the other player alone unless they come back for revenge. Its just a game to me... and honestly I think it should be for everyone. In my opinion, it is the ones who take things too seriously in a video game who are the troubled individuals... not the casual PKer/gankers.
I think we are coming from almost the same direction, because I sometimes fight those that are probably weaker, but I tend to look for fair fights too. When I say that ganking is morally wrong, I am talking about attacking a player when you are extremely certain you will win... Lets say over 95%.
Its just a game and I don't take it seriously either. I think it is wrong to gank but its not a very big deal, I have friends who like to gank, and I do it on ocassion... I like to argue with my brother about it the most, because he likes to kill lowbies then camp them for 30 minutes or so, which is excessive and more immoral than shooting down an enemy lowbie as you run to your next quest.
My main question for you is, if you see lowbies as just another enemy in a video game then why don't you just run by them the way you run by lowbie NPCs? It is more fun to fight enemy players than enemy NPCs, but that is because they are unpredictable, intelligent, more of a challenge, and satisfying to win against due to knowing they are more equal to you than stupid AI. But lowbie players are not unpredictable- They run away almost every time. Nothing they can do is challenging or very intelligent, because theres no intelligent way to fight against a gank, the only intelligent thing to do is not fight at all (run away or stand still). The only satisfaction I see comes from exerting dominance over another being. So when you say that people gank because 'they see them as an enemy in a video game and enjoy combatting real players moer than NPCs', I don't believe that is the real reason.
Moving on, you said that: 'When a gamer decides to play a game where non-consensual PvP is allowed, they are not justified to become overly upset when someone endulges in that type of activity'.
I agree that they are not justified to become 'overly upset'. But they are going to be annoyed and even 'upset' (although if they start whining/complaining I would slap them). Two factors lead to them being annoyed: Game mechanics and the player who ganked them.
I would like to see more game mechanics in MMORPGs that encourage fair world PvP and discourage ganking. Maybe dishonor points for ganking that labels you to the community as a ganker. Or giving honor points for /dueling with lower levels instead of ganking them (and dueling would automatically adjust the levels to be fair). That way when you see a lowbie you can gank them or you can get rewards for /dueling them. Since they know they'll die if they don't accept the duel they will always accept it, and they will have a fighting chance to win because duels could be adjusted for level. These are just a couple ideas on the top of my head. Theres other annoying things about MMORPG game mechanics for developers to worry about so I get it if MMORPGs do not make more of an effort to eliminate ganking.
The second factor leading to the gankees annoyance is the ganker. Thats why I hope gankers make the morally correct choice to not annoy their fellow players even though the game mechanics allow for it. It is within their right to be a ganker since everyone agreed to play the game, but they are still being annoying/mean for no real gain, which is stupid. And I hope people see that and point them out/tell them they are stupid for ganking.
I have to log now but I wanted to say about the OP... lol @ the Hegel quote. Hegel was such a nutter. I took a class about him in undergrad and learned nothing, everything he says is riddles and non-sense, and any one sentence of his writing only would make any sense in context of his entire mode of thought which is partially why I learned so little and see him as a such a nutter- His mode of thought was ridiculously complicated. Our professor never even considered that we as students would even begin to understand Hegel, and he basically just graded us on effort.
But IMO the only way to understand Hegel is to immerse yourself so into his writing that you become insane as well.
Sort of like a religion or cult, you don't understand it because you havent accepted it, but once you accept it you cannot question it because you have already accepted it??
I think many people who do PK have some sort of RL issues. Even if they're taking virtual property or ending another's virtual life, the fact that they get some sort of real pleasure out of it and don't care about the victim shows they have some issues.
The fact is, they are preying on other people without any kind of empathy and it gives them pleasure. Twisted? You decide.
Also, I don't think how a person acts in real life is really any indication of how stable they are. There are serial killers that can appear to be the nicest person in the world.
OMG...
The game gives you abilities to use against your enemy. So if you use them , then all of a sudden that makes you the same as a serial killer?
Maybe there is something wrong with the people that are saying stuff like this?
PVP is a large part of most games, and the only reason some people even play them. It is like a sport for some. It is competitive in nature. It's like playing mortal kombat with your friend and then crying on the forums because you got killed.
Your reading comprehension isn't very good. I wasn't saying PKing makes you the same as a serial killer, I was saying taking pleasure at another's misfortune isn't a sign of a healthy individual.
What about the millions of people who love to watch those bloopers videos of idiots riding bikes off roofs and such like? Are they all latent serial killers too, just waiting, waiting for their chance to strike? Have YOU ever watched such a clip, even on youtube, and laughed? If you have, you're basically Ted Bundy #2!
Seriously man, get over yourself. There's nothing more normal than laughing at someone else's misfortune, assuming the misfortune is essentially trivial. Like, for instance, losing a few e-pixels in a game - how much more trival can a misfortune be?
And if you dont find such things essentially trivial, then I'd propose that it's you with whom there is something wrong.
Is there a reason you're trying to make this personal? I guess what I said may apply to you?
BTW, you've taken what I said about the serial killer all wrong, I wasn't even relating people who PK to serial killers. What I said about serial killers was a whole different point.
Ya I've laughed at people getting hit in the junk etc, which isn't the same as getting a thrill out of hitting someone in the junk yourself.
People who are the source of another's grief and take pleasure in it, have some sort of issues... which I guess I have to clarify for you that doesn't make them on the edge of becoming a serial killer. But they surely are real dicks/ not nice people.
But I would like to hear how a healthy person could get enjoyment out of killing someone in a game who is vastly inferior to them level-wise? I have gone on and on about how I think it is linked to feeling superior than the gankee, and that is linked to some unhealthy mental attribute like low self-esteem... What are some other reasons why someone might enjoy killing lowbies repeatedly with no real difficulty?
You're thinking in terms of level-based design in EQ/WOW-style MMOs, so that probably contributes to your lack of familairity with other reasons. In most MMOs, a new character or a crafting character is a weak piece of garbage that really isn't worth anyone's time. They can't contribute to the economy, they are worthless in combat when fighting anything 6 or 7 levels above them, they can't make or gather anything of significance.They're pretty frikken useless to everyone.
In EVE, that 'weaker' character could be a scout or a tackler. That 'crafter' or 'miner' is affecting your bottom line on the market. He is affecting your enemy's access to supplies or he may even be directly supplying your enemy. As the other poster said, everything you do in EVE makes a difference. Every character's actions have impact.
Now, if we were talking about WOW, I could almost understand your point. A low level character can't harm you. There's no way to trade between sides or even to talk to each other's side. There's no point gain from killing low level characters and there's no loot to be gained. They're worthless so there's really no other reason to kill them other than 'they were there' In the end, though, there's no penalty for dying in PVP so even if you do punt their useless asses off the battlefield, it's not like it affected them anyway.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have met more psychopathic care bears playing MMOs than psychopathic pvpers, the care bears regularly make RL threats or promise to hunt you down IG until you quit and just generally torrents of abuse.
Its very sad really the way they cannot dissociate what happens in a game from real life and it seems like its been that way from the dawn of online games as the quote in the second posts dates from 1994! I would go one further and suggest anybody who makes claims of "PKers" or w/e you call it are unstable IRL has the same trouble telling the difference to.
Seriously if games drive you that crazy that you start believing that someone has mental health issues IRL because they killed you in a game you need to cancel your Internet subscription and do something else for a hobby.
EDIT
"Eve is a perfect example of this. There is a vast non-PvP portion to the game ranging from mining, crafting, trading, etc, however there is still a considerable side of PvP with the game. There are no other games like Eve, and only one shared server for it, so there's only one ruleset. This is where problems occur, because different portions of the playerbase want different things. The PvEers generally want to PvE in peace, while many of the PvPers would love for all space to become zero sec so they could potententially hunt down and pod every single player..."
No....... Absolutely no, nobody in EVE can "PvE in peace" everything a player does affects every other player, they affect the economy and they devalue some items and inflate the cost of others, a mission runner will dump loyalty store items on the market which makes them cheaper and they inject minerals into the economy making those cheaper while items missions runners commonly use will go up in price.
So if they can affect me I should sure as hell be able to affect them in return.
Those psychopathic carebears are obviously idiots and as someone who is against ganking I would like distance myself from them completely, lol.
But I would like to hear how a healthy person could get enjoyment out of killing someone in a game who is vastly inferior to them level-wise? I have gone on and on about how I think it is linked to feeling superior than the gankee, and that is linked to some unhealthy mental attribute like low self-esteem... What are some other reasons why someone might enjoy killing lowbies repeatedly with no real difficulty?
And again, I don't think this 'unhealthy mental attribute' is necessarily a serious problem. This is just a game we are talking about, not a major moral offense, and I wouldn't make the claim that all gankers need to see a psychologist or something... Maybe they just need to do some self reflecting as to why they enjoy causing annoyance to other players.
Well I can tell you from experience that at a certain point, you don't even register them as players. You see, In WoW I got used to randomly fire blasting little lvl 1 squirrels, toads, and other critters while running from place to place because it was simply fun to use the ability.
Well the same pastime while running around sort of equated to players as well. Running from one point to another, if you saw a player off the side of the road minding his own business, you just fire blasted him, or whatever. I didn't really think about it.
Guess that makes me a sociopathical gamer. I'm not a psychopath because i'm not that way from birth, but I deffinetely felt indifferent about it at the time. I think a lot of it has to do with the decensitization of violence in video games, among other things.
That fact is probably trippled in my case along with the apathy, because I deal with death IRL on a fairly regular basis. In order to be used to death you have to learn to either numb your emotions until later, or begin to feel apathetic towards death in order to do your job in the most logical and productive manner.
“I play games for the challenge. …he doesn't want a combatant.” Deivos.
Someone plays a game for a challenge, to be the first, the best. For others fantasy MMORPG is a kind of an interactive illustrated book or commix, any forms of combat and formal game achievements are secondary for them.
I was not talking about game lore-justified PvP/PK, but exclusively about unfair cases (ganking of lowbies, griefing, etc.). For these gamers this is the main fun/goal in the game. Challenging hunt and domestic animals slaughter have no difference for them.
A MMORPG is an interactive public form of an artistic entertainment. Influence of Art on a human is well known. On the other hand, nobody is talking loud in a theater. So, I am “blaming” not only people (players) but game design (developers) as well. However, it is better to start from yourself (us, gamers). What is formally possible does not mean that it should be realized. IMO this is also valid in virtual reality. Once being a murderer means a murderer forever: if someone enjoys (allows himself/herself) disturbing another human in a MMO, “ruin his game” he will not hesitate under suitable circumstances to do that in RL because another person does not exist for him, his will, his last crazy desire/dream has the priority. I wish I would be wrong.
Wormywrm, I know that Hegel as teacher was not the “best” even for his times. Indeed, his books are complicated even for native-speakers. I have deliberately used a polarized provocative form for my initial post because I have never expected such a serious debate about my boubts.
A MMORPG is an interactive public form of an artistic entertainment. Influence of Art on a human is well known. On the other hand, nobody is talking loud in a theater. So, I am “blaming” not only people (players) but game design (developers) as well. However, it is better to start from yourself (us, gamers). What is formally possible does not mean that it should be realized. IMO this is also valid in virtual reality. Once being a murderer means a murderer forever: if someone enjoys (allows himself/herself) disturbing another human in a MMO, “ruin his game” he will not hesitate under suitable circumstances to do that in RL because another person does not exist for him, his will, his last crazy desire/dream has the priority. I wish I would be wrong.
Basically this. If your enjoyment of or reason for playing a game is to ruin others fun, without provocation, then you are a d-bag, both in the game and in rl. Period.
However, I do think that game designers need to take some of the blame. In rl, there are consequences for being a jerk. They might be mild, such as ppl flipping you the finger, or you might get punched out or go to jail, depending on your level of a-holeness. Games need to do this too, in an unexploitable way. Basically, if you continue to be a jerk to others, the penalties should ramp up to the point where your character is locked away or executed. I would love to see a game do this. A penalty where repeated bad behaviour earns you a reputation that causes you to avoid the law and/or bounty hunters. If caught, that character (not the account) would be unplayable for a while (thrown in prison) or possibly deleted if your crimes were egregious enough.
This would allow for all the freedom of choice this type of player demands, but put truly punitive disincentives in place for such actions. To be fair, in such a game, I think you'd have to allow for full looting.
Basically this. If your enjoyment of or reason for playing a game is to ruin others fun, without provocation, then you are a d-bag, both in the game and in rl. Period.
However, I do think that game designers need to take some of the blame. In rl, there are consequences for being a jerk. They might be mild, such as ppl flipping you the finger, or you might get punched out or go to jail, depending on your level of a-holeness. Games need to do this too, in an unexploitable way. Basically, if you continue to be a jerk to others, the penalties should ramp up to the point where your character is locked away or executed. I would love to see a game do this. A penalty where repeated bad behaviour earns you a reputation that causes you to avoid the law and/or bounty hunters. If caught, that character (not the account) would be unplayable for a while (thrown in prison) or possibly deleted if your crimes were egregious enough.
This would allow for all the freedom of choice this type of player demands, but put truly punitive disincentives in place for such actions. To be fair, in such a game, I think you'd have to allow for full looting.
Such a game exists. It's called Dransik. When a criminal is caught, they're sent to Prison Island with the rest of the criminals and they serve out a sentence there. The criminal can mine inthe rocks in the quarry to reduce their sentence some, but since they're trapped on an island with others like them, it's highly liekly they will be PK'd, looted and have to fight back and forth just to stay alive long enough to work off the sentence so that they can return to the general populace.
Then again, there's always Roma Victor where they crucified criminals and left them hanging there in public to serve their 'ban time'. Actually, their first crucifixion was exactly five years and one month ago :
A 27 year-old electrical engineer from Flint, Michigan, USA
RedBedlam today announced that Roma Victor's first crucifixion will take place this week, when Cynewulf, a 27 year-old electrical engineer from Flint, Michigan, USA, will be punished for ganking other players as they first appear. He will be hung on a cross for a full seven days on full public display in the digital reconstruction of the provincial town of Corstopitum. Such punishments will also be applied if cheating by exploiting a bug or advancing your character's skills unfairly. Multiple punishments will result in a permanent ban, though we do not dare to imagine how this will accomplished.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
ohaitherr. I Pk in every game i played. I camp, i spawn kill, and wait for hours for you to come out of hiding, ill even pay people to tell me where you are. (: Im a nice person though.
Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
Sure they can. No one is completely black or white in that way. How many times have we heard: "He kept to himself a lot but he seamed very friend. I never would of guessed he was burying bodies in his back yard.". Add on the anonymity of the internet and internet muscles.
Im pacifist in rl and love and peace person over all, do i say more?
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Good thread. I've already said something on this, but just one more point. There's a bit of a dissonance between two points of view running through all these discussions:-
1) "A virtual world must mean something. It means something when I put time and energy into building resources, etc., (just like in real life)"
2) "It's just a game."
So which is it?
If someone ganks or griefs, is the excuse "it's just a game" really valid? How different is it from real life really? After all the victim has put time and effort into something, just as they would have done in real life, and when it's stolen, just like in real life, that time and energy has been wasted, nullified.
For my part, as I've said, I don't mind PK-ing so long as it's sort of IC (just like that long speech from the guy in the 1992 MUD - that I can understand perfectly well, it's roleplaying as it was intended).
What I really dislike is anything that draws me out of immersion and makes me realise I'm just some guy sitting at a computer. Hence, I dislike the kind of "cheap" ganking/griefing that's not even vaguely IC, that's just OBVIOUSLY some spotty kid sitting at a computer having a laugh at someone else's expense.
Or to put it another way, if the ganking is "transparent" and I can see the spotty kid at the other end of it (or even some famliy man with a business, or WHATEVER), that's when I hate it, because it's broken the "magic spell" of the game.
Whereas If the ganking feels like it's avatar-on-avatar in the game, if it's part of the vibe of the game-world, then no matter how "evil" it may be, no matter how much time it wastes for me or whatever, it's all good - it's part of the immersion, part of the roleplay, part of the "magic".
Because when he is in his virtual self he is trully FREE
And if when he is FREE he likes to cause GRIEF to other people.
Than he is not NICE person
Its simple as that
So you're genuinely saying that what someone does in real life is unimportant; only how they act in a game counts?
You dont see anything the tiniest bit wrong there?
What about people who not only dont do bad things in RL, but actually do good things they dont have to? They're free not to be generous or helpful - there are no laws against that.
Seriously, you are being so short-sighted and judgemental I can only assume that you're being ironic or something. Otherwise I can only assume that you have led an extremely sheltered existence.
Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
this is a big misunderstanding. pvp people think that every time we get ganked we do this:
most of us however really dont. its just a feature we dont like that much in a game we adore. Just like pvp folks might not like harvesting or whatever, its just a feature, its not the second coming.
I wonder if pvp players would be disapointed learning that on vent when we get killed we pretty much continue whatever converstion we were having just before the encounter...
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
this is a big misunderstanding. pvp people think that every time we get ganked we do this:
most of us however really dont. its just a feature we dont like that much in a game we adore. Just like pvp folks might not like harvesting or whatever, its just a feature, its not the second coming.
I wonder if pvp players would be disapointed learning that on vent when we get killed we pretty much continue whatever converstion we were having just before the encounter...
I dont want you to cry and rage and yell when I kill your character, although you can if you like.
In case Being determines Consciousness, what sort of mentality can develop such individual?
“Education is the art of making man ethical.” (“Philosophy of Right”, Hegel).
What MMOs are teaching than?
In case Consciousness determines Being, what sort of a person/individual is a PKer?
“Be a person and respect others as persons.” (ibid)
Should MMO developers be more careful, and obligatory protect other players? Are PvP only MMORPGs with humanoid-PCs ethically justified?
I do not think that certain games could be directly related to RL criminal actions and I have nothing against controlled and artistic adult content in MMOs, but I am really puzzled with the growing numbers of rude anti-social MMO players (PKers, gankers, blockers, team-killers, etc.). I guess game developers should pay more attention to game design/content in this respect and consider what social impact their products might have.
What do you think?
I think the technology itself allows for more anti-socials to come out of the woodwork then real life does.
That is not to say that pvp is by default anti-social but I am just saying on average a game will have more grievers then real life because its easier for them to do it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
In case Being determines Consciousness, what sort of mentality can develop such individual?
“Education is the art of making man ethical.” (“Philosophy of Right”, Hegel).
What MMOs are teaching than?
In case Consciousness determines Being, what sort of a person/individual is a PKer?
“Be a person and respect others as persons.” (ibid)
Should MMO developers be more careful, and obligatory protect other players? Are PvP only MMORPGs with humanoid-PCs ethically justified?
I do not think that certain games could be directly related to RL criminal actions and I have nothing against controlled and artistic adult content in MMOs, but I am really puzzled with the growing numbers of rude anti-social MMO players (PKers, gankers, blockers, team-killers, etc.). I guess game developers should pay more attention to game design/content in this respect and consider what social impact their products might have.
What do you think?
Here is what i think.
First we have to go to the core and find out from where did PK or Ganking came from.
If you go through different Mmo's you will see this PK system or option or the whole Ganking part was introducd mostly by F2p models to make you realize that you can be killed when doing some quest. Now this system gives a better control over a territory (BOSS/RESOURCE) for the game support. Let's say you are froob and you have been playing the game and you have reached higher levels without making the F2p cash shop model any money. Well you can be just Pked by the game support to make you abondon the game as your presence in the server is eating the bandwidth but not making the company any money. Yes, we are teaching ways to get money out of Mmo. Moreover it will ensure that people willing to play the game should use cash shop to stop them from getting killed. The Mmo now becomes a competitive world where you have to use real money to get stronger and get yourself from getting PKed.
I am a great supporter of duelling but this PK part is where i think violence regulations are not maintained. Come on we cannot teach our new generation of gamers to kill other players just like that. If this system gets inside the mind of a young kid and he/she implements it in real life, we are the one to blame.
Gone are those days of AO where we used to learn team gaming , being polite for buffs, help others and moreover the fun of gaming was intact. Nowadays we are with the Forsaken World's kind, where you will be PKed every few hours and I am quite sure the whole gamut is operated by the game support base itself.
If game development these days is all about earning and making money then sooner or later there will be too many games with too meagre a population in each to continue.
Apart from this logical deduction of the system of PK and its implementation, I think there should always be the PVE / PVP server option in the Mmo's with the PK system. Then it becomes a choice and not a mandatory part of the game which you need to tolerate if you do not like .
In real LIFE, are you sure that the PKer is a player or is the PKer out there to make you compete and make money for the company?
Cheers Sourajit Nandi
" Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't play this or that. That's nonsense. Make up your mind,and you'll never whine or repent about gaming hours anymore, then have a go at every Game. Open up the Internet, join in all the Mmorpgs you can. Go make the Guild. But never, never let them persuade you that things are too difficult or impossible. "
Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
this is a big misunderstanding. pvp people think that every time we get ganked we do this:
most of us however really dont. its just a feature we dont like that much in a game we adore. Just like pvp folks might not like harvesting or whatever, its just a feature, its not the second coming.
I wonder if pvp players would be disapointed learning that on vent when we get killed we pretty much continue whatever converstion we were having just before the encounter...
I dont want you to cry and rage and yell when I kill your character, although you can if you like.
I just want your stuff.
As it turns out I never talk to PKers.
Does that happen often to you?
I have, and still play, Darkfall for 2 years so I am plenty exposed to pvp even though other than warfare I dont like it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I think that the ability to compartmentalize gaming as being seperate from the rest of life and therefore it is ok to cause others grief shows a real lack of empathy. Also, many PK-types spew racial slurs and mysoginist comments left and right which can only be described as anti-social behavior.
Comments
Needing care bears is a fallacy many pvpers and lots of players have industrial alts and most production beyond basic T1 involves nullsec and wormhole space, moon materials and reactions come purely from low/nullsec and nullsec alliances tie up most of their production.
The skills for T1 production can be trained in a few weeks so again the carebears are 100% useless, even parasitic as the real players would benefit from better margins if the carbears disappeared.
We do agree on one thing though your post was fairly face>palm inducing.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
I truly enjoy the role of gankers. I enjoy the challenge they set upon me, the challenge that I need to become stronger or smarter in order to block and counter their attack. Looking back at games I play (where I gravitate to the pvp servers) some of the best experiences I've had was those 1v1s while leveling or farming mats where it was an equal fight and skill determined the winner (and sometimes a little luck - RNG for the lose?). Those were fond memories.
I guess I should add that while I have ganked people in the past, I pretty much leave people be at this point. I tend to wait for people to initiate the fight nowadays.
I think they want the "experience" or "thrill" of that kind of environment, but don't want the "risk" of it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
To add a little more about gankers - I think gankers can be perfectly nice people in real life. I mean its not like they are ganking people in real life, right? They are playing an online game and doing it. Trully no harm done when the game allows ganking and player killing.
I think we are coming from almost the same direction, because I sometimes fight those that are probably weaker, but I tend to look for fair fights too. When I say that ganking is morally wrong, I am talking about attacking a player when you are extremely certain you will win... Lets say over 95%.
Its just a game and I don't take it seriously either. I think it is wrong to gank but its not a very big deal, I have friends who like to gank, and I do it on ocassion... I like to argue with my brother about it the most, because he likes to kill lowbies then camp them for 30 minutes or so, which is excessive and more immoral than shooting down an enemy lowbie as you run to your next quest.
My main question for you is, if you see lowbies as just another enemy in a video game then why don't you just run by them the way you run by lowbie NPCs? It is more fun to fight enemy players than enemy NPCs, but that is because they are unpredictable, intelligent, more of a challenge, and satisfying to win against due to knowing they are more equal to you than stupid AI. But lowbie players are not unpredictable- They run away almost every time. Nothing they can do is challenging or very intelligent, because theres no intelligent way to fight against a gank, the only intelligent thing to do is not fight at all (run away or stand still). The only satisfaction I see comes from exerting dominance over another being. So when you say that people gank because 'they see them as an enemy in a video game and enjoy combatting real players moer than NPCs', I don't believe that is the real reason.
Moving on, you said that: 'When a gamer decides to play a game where non-consensual PvP is allowed, they are not justified to become overly upset when someone endulges in that type of activity'.
I agree that they are not justified to become 'overly upset'. But they are going to be annoyed and even 'upset' (although if they start whining/complaining I would slap them). Two factors lead to them being annoyed: Game mechanics and the player who ganked them.
I would like to see more game mechanics in MMORPGs that encourage fair world PvP and discourage ganking. Maybe dishonor points for ganking that labels you to the community as a ganker. Or giving honor points for /dueling with lower levels instead of ganking them (and dueling would automatically adjust the levels to be fair). That way when you see a lowbie you can gank them or you can get rewards for /dueling them. Since they know they'll die if they don't accept the duel they will always accept it, and they will have a fighting chance to win because duels could be adjusted for level. These are just a couple ideas on the top of my head. Theres other annoying things about MMORPG game mechanics for developers to worry about so I get it if MMORPGs do not make more of an effort to eliminate ganking.
The second factor leading to the gankees annoyance is the ganker. Thats why I hope gankers make the morally correct choice to not annoy their fellow players even though the game mechanics allow for it. It is within their right to be a ganker since everyone agreed to play the game, but they are still being annoying/mean for no real gain, which is stupid. And I hope people see that and point them out/tell them they are stupid for ganking.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
/totally off-topic
I have to log now but I wanted to say about the OP... lol @ the Hegel quote. Hegel was such a nutter. I took a class about him in undergrad and learned nothing, everything he says is riddles and non-sense, and any one sentence of his writing only would make any sense in context of his entire mode of thought which is partially why I learned so little and see him as a such a nutter- His mode of thought was ridiculously complicated. Our professor never even considered that we as students would even begin to understand Hegel, and he basically just graded us on effort.
But IMO the only way to understand Hegel is to immerse yourself so into his writing that you become insane as well.
Sort of like a religion or cult, you don't understand it because you havent accepted it, but once you accept it you cannot question it because you have already accepted it??
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Is there a reason you're trying to make this personal? I guess what I said may apply to you?
BTW, you've taken what I said about the serial killer all wrong, I wasn't even relating people who PK to serial killers. What I said about serial killers was a whole different point.
Ya I've laughed at people getting hit in the junk etc, which isn't the same as getting a thrill out of hitting someone in the junk yourself.
People who are the source of another's grief and take pleasure in it, have some sort of issues... which I guess I have to clarify for you that doesn't make them on the edge of becoming a serial killer. But they surely are real dicks/ not nice people.
You're thinking in terms of level-based design in EQ/WOW-style MMOs, so that probably contributes to your lack of familairity with other reasons. In most MMOs, a new character or a crafting character is a weak piece of garbage that really isn't worth anyone's time. They can't contribute to the economy, they are worthless in combat when fighting anything 6 or 7 levels above them, they can't make or gather anything of significance.They're pretty frikken useless to everyone.
In EVE, that 'weaker' character could be a scout or a tackler. That 'crafter' or 'miner' is affecting your bottom line on the market. He is affecting your enemy's access to supplies or he may even be directly supplying your enemy. As the other poster said, everything you do in EVE makes a difference. Every character's actions have impact.
Now, if we were talking about WOW, I could almost understand your point. A low level character can't harm you. There's no way to trade between sides or even to talk to each other's side. There's no point gain from killing low level characters and there's no loot to be gained. They're worthless so there's really no other reason to kill them other than 'they were there' In the end, though, there's no penalty for dying in PVP so even if you do punt their useless asses off the battlefield, it's not like it affected them anyway.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well I can tell you from experience that at a certain point, you don't even register them as players. You see, In WoW I got used to randomly fire blasting little lvl 1 squirrels, toads, and other critters while running from place to place because it was simply fun to use the ability.
Well the same pastime while running around sort of equated to players as well. Running from one point to another, if you saw a player off the side of the road minding his own business, you just fire blasted him, or whatever. I didn't really think about it.
Guess that makes me a sociopathical gamer. I'm not a psychopath because i'm not that way from birth, but I deffinetely felt indifferent about it at the time. I think a lot of it has to do with the decensitization of violence in video games, among other things.
That fact is probably trippled in my case along with the apathy, because I deal with death IRL on a fairly regular basis. In order to be used to death you have to learn to either numb your emotions until later, or begin to feel apathetic towards death in order to do your job in the most logical and productive manner.
“I play games for the challenge. …he doesn't want a combatant.” Deivos.
Someone plays a game for a challenge, to be the first, the best. For others fantasy MMORPG is a kind of an interactive illustrated book or commix, any forms of combat and formal game achievements are secondary for them.
I was not talking about game lore-justified PvP/PK, but exclusively about unfair cases (ganking of lowbies, griefing, etc.). For these gamers this is the main fun/goal in the game. Challenging hunt and domestic animals slaughter have no difference for them.
A MMORPG is an interactive public form of an artistic entertainment. Influence of Art on a human is well known. On the other hand, nobody is talking loud in a theater. So, I am “blaming” not only people (players) but game design (developers) as well. However, it is better to start from yourself (us, gamers). What is formally possible does not mean that it should be realized. IMO this is also valid in virtual reality. Once being a murderer means a murderer forever: if someone enjoys (allows himself/herself) disturbing another human in a MMO, “ruin his game” he will not hesitate under suitable circumstances to do that in RL because another person does not exist for him, his will, his last crazy desire/dream has the priority. I wish I would be wrong.
Wormywrm, I know that Hegel as teacher was not the “best” even for his times. Indeed, his books are complicated even for native-speakers. I have deliberately used a polarized provocative form for my initial post because I have never expected such a serious debate about my boubts.
Basically this. If your enjoyment of or reason for playing a game is to ruin others fun, without provocation, then you are a d-bag, both in the game and in rl. Period.
However, I do think that game designers need to take some of the blame. In rl, there are consequences for being a jerk. They might be mild, such as ppl flipping you the finger, or you might get punched out or go to jail, depending on your level of a-holeness. Games need to do this too, in an unexploitable way. Basically, if you continue to be a jerk to others, the penalties should ramp up to the point where your character is locked away or executed. I would love to see a game do this. A penalty where repeated bad behaviour earns you a reputation that causes you to avoid the law and/or bounty hunters. If caught, that character (not the account) would be unplayable for a while (thrown in prison) or possibly deleted if your crimes were egregious enough.
This would allow for all the freedom of choice this type of player demands, but put truly punitive disincentives in place for such actions. To be fair, in such a game, I think you'd have to allow for full looting.
Such a game exists. It's called Dransik. When a criminal is caught, they're sent to Prison Island with the rest of the criminals and they serve out a sentence there. The criminal can mine inthe rocks in the quarry to reduce their sentence some, but since they're trapped on an island with others like them, it's highly liekly they will be PK'd, looted and have to fight back and forth just to stay alive long enough to work off the sentence so that they can return to the general populace.
Then again, there's always Roma Victor where they crucified criminals and left them hanging there in public to serve their 'ban time'. Actually, their first crucifixion was exactly five years and one month ago :
Source: http://www.gamershell.com/news_29017.html
ROMA VICTOR'S FIRST CRUCUFIXION ANNOUNCED
A 27 year-old electrical engineer from Flint, Michigan, USA
RedBedlam today announced that Roma Victor's first crucifixion will take place this week, when Cynewulf, a 27 year-old electrical engineer from Flint, Michigan, USA, will be punished for ganking other players as they first appear. He will be hung on a cross for a full seven days on full public display in the digital reconstruction of the provincial town of Corstopitum. Such punishments will also be applied if cheating by exploiting a bug or advancing your character's skills unfairly. Multiple punishments will result in a permanent ban, though we do not dare to imagine how this will accomplished.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
ohaitherr. I Pk in every game i played. I camp, i spawn kill, and wait for hours for you to come out of hiding, ill even pay people to tell me where you are. (: Im a nice person though.
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
Sure they can. No one is completely black or white in that way. How many times have we heard: "He kept to himself a lot but he seamed very friend. I never would of guessed he was burying bodies in his back yard.". Add on the anonymity of the internet and internet muscles.
Im fanatic ffa full loot pvper in darkfall.
Im pacifist in rl and love and peace person over all, do i say more?
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Good thread. I've already said something on this, but just one more point. There's a bit of a dissonance between two points of view running through all these discussions:-
1) "A virtual world must mean something. It means something when I put time and energy into building resources, etc., (just like in real life)"
2) "It's just a game."
So which is it?
If someone ganks or griefs, is the excuse "it's just a game" really valid? How different is it from real life really? After all the victim has put time and effort into something, just as they would have done in real life, and when it's stolen, just like in real life, that time and energy has been wasted, nullified.
For my part, as I've said, I don't mind PK-ing so long as it's sort of IC (just like that long speech from the guy in the 1992 MUD - that I can understand perfectly well, it's roleplaying as it was intended).
What I really dislike is anything that draws me out of immersion and makes me realise I'm just some guy sitting at a computer. Hence, I dislike the kind of "cheap" ganking/griefing that's not even vaguely IC, that's just OBVIOUSLY some spotty kid sitting at a computer having a laugh at someone else's expense.
Or to put it another way, if the ganking is "transparent" and I can see the spotty kid at the other end of it (or even some famliy man with a business, or WHATEVER), that's when I hate it, because it's broken the "magic spell" of the game.
Whereas If the ganking feels like it's avatar-on-avatar in the game, if it's part of the vibe of the game-world, then no matter how "evil" it may be, no matter how much time it wastes for me or whatever, it's all good - it's part of the immersion, part of the roleplay, part of the "magic".
Yes I am.
So you're genuinely saying that what someone does in real life is unimportant; only how they act in a game counts?
You dont see anything the tiniest bit wrong there?
What about people who not only dont do bad things in RL, but actually do good things they dont have to? They're free not to be generous or helpful - there are no laws against that.
Seriously, you are being so short-sighted and judgemental I can only assume that you're being ironic or something. Otherwise I can only assume that you have led an extremely sheltered existence.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
this is a big misunderstanding. pvp people think that every time we get ganked we do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZTHB1CjhGk
most of us however really dont. its just a feature we dont like that much in a game we adore. Just like pvp folks might not like harvesting or whatever, its just a feature, its not the second coming.
I wonder if pvp players would be disapointed learning that on vent when we get killed we pretty much continue whatever converstion we were having just before the encounter...
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I dont want you to cry and rage and yell when I kill your character, although you can if you like.
I just want your stuff.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I think the technology itself allows for more anti-socials to come out of the woodwork then real life does.
That is not to say that pvp is by default anti-social but I am just saying on average a game will have more grievers then real life because its easier for them to do it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Here is what i think.
First we have to go to the core and find out from where did PK or Ganking came from.
If you go through different Mmo's you will see this PK system or option or the whole Ganking part was introducd mostly by F2p models to make you realize that you can be killed when doing some quest. Now this system gives a better control over a territory (BOSS/RESOURCE) for the game support. Let's say you are froob and you have been playing the game and you have reached higher levels without making the F2p cash shop model any money. Well you can be just Pked by the game support to make you abondon the game as your presence in the server is eating the bandwidth but not making the company any money. Yes, we are teaching ways to get money out of Mmo. Moreover it will ensure that people willing to play the game should use cash shop to stop them from getting killed. The Mmo now becomes a competitive world where you have to use real money to get stronger and get yourself from getting PKed.
I am a great supporter of duelling but this PK part is where i think violence regulations are not maintained. Come on we cannot teach our new generation of gamers to kill other players just like that. If this system gets inside the mind of a young kid and he/she implements it in real life, we are the one to blame.
Gone are those days of AO where we used to learn team gaming , being polite for buffs, help others and moreover the fun of gaming was intact. Nowadays we are with the Forsaken World's kind, where you will be PKed every few hours and I am quite sure the whole gamut is operated by the game support base itself.
If game development these days is all about earning and making money then sooner or later there will be too many games with too meagre a population in each to continue.
Apart from this logical deduction of the system of PK and its implementation, I think there should always be the PVE / PVP server option in the Mmo's with the PK system. Then it becomes a choice and not a mandatory part of the game which you need to tolerate if you do not like .
In real LIFE, are you sure that the PKer is a player or is the PKer out there to make you compete and make money for the company?
Cheers
Sourajit Nandi
" Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't play this or that. That's nonsense. Make up your mind,and you'll never whine or repent about gaming hours anymore, then have a go at every Game. Open up the Internet, join in all the Mmorpgs you can. Go make the Guild. But never, never let them persuade you that things are too difficult or impossible. "
Once An Addict Always An Addict .
As it turns out I never talk to PKers.
Does that happen often to you?
I have, and still play, Darkfall for 2 years so I am plenty exposed to pvp even though other than warfare I dont like it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I think that the ability to compartmentalize gaming as being seperate from the rest of life and therefore it is ok to cause others grief shows a real lack of empathy. Also, many PK-types spew racial slurs and mysoginist comments left and right which can only be described as anti-social behavior.