I believe they call it an opinion, and I've stated such numerous times. Terrain isn't gimmicky, the addition of underwater content, then the creation of a "breathing apparatus" to justify that content, then the addition of underwater pets so that you have friends while you're down there, then the removal of everything else that makes underwater content different from land based content, .... it is nothing but hokey in my opinion.
All you basically said is, they created under water content for their underwater experience. They could have implemented any other kind of content in the same exact way and it would have been just as hokey. There isn't even a mid point between --- I have no breathing apparatus so I can't explore anything, to , I can stay underwater forever! Maybe I'll setup an underwater hammock and get my underwater refrigerator apparatus to keep my beer cold.
On top of that, engineers can create turrets, they have underwater breathing apparatuses, and they have portals, but they can't master the idea behind a bicycle or taming a moa bird so we can have mounts? But we can make a shark a pet.
In my eyes, mounts would have been better implemented than underwater combat if they are just going to pretend the water isn't really there anyways. Yup thats my "subjective bias" if you want to put it that way, but I'm not the only one that feels like that.
I disagree. I think virtually everything you think is fun is, in actuality, not fun.
I also think you are getting off on acting as though you are being attacked for having an opinion despite the fact that you are not on the General Forums, but the ones devoted to the game you are critiquing for not being another game, at a rate far higher than you spend discussing any other game.
Having a dissenting opinion is not trolling, but revelling in your martyrdom and arguing in a manner that brooks no dissent ("I'm just saying some parts of your game suck, because I'd rather they weren't there, not because they're broken or anything -- omg opinion!!! I totally do this with other games only it's clear I don't!") pretty much is.
Just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I should stop posting it. There isn't a "my game is better than your game mentality" this thread was written to try and say "Hey look, there is a movement penalty" and there isn't.
I've stated my opinion, and people come back and try and tell me my opinions wrong, I could not try and clarify so that people could understand it and just leave it alone, or I could play the game with a little back and forth to see if people could at least step away from their fandom for just a moment to see another point of view.
While saying simply "Yes, you are right, they took away just about everything that makes underwater combat different than land combat, but that doesn't bother me, in fact, I like it" would be pretty much the end of this exchange, people love to try and prove a preference wrong. If you like breathing underwater, and leaving your non-underwater-breathing-apparatus-land-based-pets (or the inconsequential non-air-breathing-apparatus-underwater-based-pets) behind whilst you walk around aimlessly beneath the ocean for hours at a time in the same fashion you do on land just with a blue tint to everything, then I'm ALL FOR that, for you.
I'll be playing this underwater content TOO, because I'm still going to buy the game, it doesn't mean I have to like the idea of it, or even the implementation. I'm going to play SWTORs space combat too, would I have wanted JTL, X vs Tie, or even Battlefront space combat instead? OF COURSE I would have, but I already went over my disfavor with that many months ago.
My biggest issue with this is water will (with no movement speed as thats what i heard from people posting comments and this is the first i've heard of a speed effect) be used to get away from a mob or take shortcuts rather then it's intended purpose. Players will do weird things to avoid dying in games. Like using water to lose aggro. Course with this game having a almost non exist death penalty that isn't much of an issue either.
I'm pretty sure ArenaNet intends on you using the water to get away or take shortcuts. It can have multiple purposes. Though getting away from a mob may not go so well since many mobs have an underwater combat, and you are vulnerable while swimming on the surface. People will use water to get away from mobs or as shortcuts anyway, regardless of movement effects. Also, just because you walk into the water doesn't mean you've lost aggro. Watch one of the developer videos on underwater combat.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in using all your resources to avoid dying, including water.
I believe they call it an opinion, and I've stated such numerous times. Terrain isn't gimmicky, the addition of underwater content, then the creation of a "breathing apparatus" to justify that content, then the addition of underwater pets so that you have friends while you're down there, then the removal of everything else that makes underwater content different from land based content, .... it is nothing but hokey in my opinion. All you basically said is, they created under water content for their underwater experience. They could have implemented any other kind of content in the same exact way and it would have been just as hokey. There isn't even a mid point between --- I have no breathing apparatus so I can't explore anything, to , I can stay underwater forever! Maybe I'll setup an underwater hammock and get my underwater refrigerator apparatus to keep my beer cold. On top of that, engineers can create turrets, they have underwater breathing apparatuses, and they have portals, but they can't master the idea behind a bicycle or taming a moa bird so we can have mounts? But we can make a shark a pet. In my eyes, mounts would have been better implemented than underwater combat if they are just going to pretend the water isn't really there anyways. Yup thats my "subjective bias" if you want to put it that way, but I'm not the only one that feels like that.
I disagree. I think virtually everything you think is fun is, in actuality, not fun.
I also think you are getting off on acting as though you are being attacked for having an opinion despite the fact that you are not on the General Forums, but the ones devoted to the game you are critiquing for not being another game, at a rate far higher than you spend discussing any other game. Having a dissenting opinion is not trolling, but revelling in your martyrdom and arguing in a manner that brooks no dissent ("I'm just saying some parts of your game suck, because I'd rather they weren't there, not because they're broken or anything -- omg opinion!!! I totally do this with other games only it's clear I don't!") pretty much is.
Just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I should stop posting it. There isn't a "my game is better than your game mentality" this thread was written to try and say "Hey look, there is a movement penalty" and there isn't.
I've stated my opinion, and people come back and try and tell me my opinions wrong, I could not try and clarify so that people could understand it and just leave it alone, or I could play the game with a little back and forth to see if people could at least step away from their fandom for just a moment to see another point of view.
While saying simply "Yes, you are right, they took away just about everything that makes underwater combat different than land combat, but that doesn't bother me, in fact, I like it" would be pretty much the end of this exchange, people love to try and prove a preference wrong. If you like breathing underwater, and leaving your non-underwater-breathing-apparatus-land-based-pets (or the inconsequential non-air-breathing-apparatus-underwater-based-pets) behind whilst you walk around aimlessly beneath the ocean for hours at a time in the same fashion you do on land just with a blue tint to everything, then I'm ALL FOR that, for you.
I'll be playing this underwater content TOO, because I'm still going to buy the game, it doesn't mean I have to like the idea of it, or even the implementation. I'm going to play SWTORs space combat too, would I have wanted JTL, X vs Tie, or even Battlefront space combat instead? OF COURSE I would have, but I already went over my disfavor with that many months ago.
Yup, you are definitely getting your jollies from this.
Oh, but don't worry, I am enjoying this too, because you'll still be paying ArenaNet, and they *still* won't be making the game you want GW2 to be.
I believe they call it an opinion, and I've stated such numerous times. Terrain isn't gimmicky, the addition of underwater content, then the creation of a "breathing apparatus" to justify that content, then the addition of underwater pets so that you have friends while you're down there, then the removal of everything else that makes underwater content different from land based content, .... it is nothing but hokey in my opinion.
All you basically said is, they created under water content for their underwater experience. They could have implemented any other kind of content in the same exact way and it would have been just as hokey. There isn't even a mid point between --- I have no breathing apparatus so I can't explore anything, to , I can stay underwater forever! Maybe I'll setup an underwater hammock and get my underwater refrigerator apparatus to keep my beer cold.
On top of that, engineers can create turrets, they have underwater breathing apparatuses, and they have portals, but they can't master the idea behind a bicycle or taming a moa bird so we can have mounts? But we can make a shark a pet.
In my eyes, mounts would have been better implemented than underwater combat if they are just going to pretend the water isn't really there anyways. Yup thats my "subjective bias" if you want to put it that way, but I'm not the only one that feels like that.
I disagree. I think virtually everything you think is fun is, in actuality, not fun.
I also think you are getting off on acting as though you are being attacked for having an opinion despite the fact that you are not on the General Forums, but the ones devoted to the game you are critiquing for not being another game, at a rate far higher than you spend discussing any other game.
Having a dissenting opinion is not trolling, but revelling in your martyrdom and arguing in a manner that brooks no dissent ("I'm just saying some parts of your game suck, because I'd rather they weren't there, not because they're broken or anything -- omg opinion!!! I totally do this with other games only it's clear I don't!") pretty much is.
Just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I should stop posting it. There isn't a "my game is better than your game mentality" this thread was written to try and say "Hey look, there is a movement penalty" and there isn't.
I've stated my opinion, and people come back and try and tell me my opinions wrong, I could not try and clarify so that people could understand it and just leave it alone, or I could play the game with a little back and forth to see if people could at least step away from their fandom for just a moment to see another point of view.
While saying simply "Yes, you are right, they took away just about everything that makes underwater combat different than land combat, but that doesn't bother me, in fact, I like it" would be pretty much the end of this exchange, people love to try and prove a preference wrong. If you like breathing underwater, and leaving your non-underwater-breathing-apparatus-land-based-pets (or the inconsequential non-air-breathing-apparatus-underwater-based-pets) behind whilst you walk around aimlessly beneath the ocean for hours at a time in the same fashion you do on land just with a blue tint to everything, then I'm ALL FOR that, for you.
I'll be playing this underwater content TOO, because I'm still going to buy the game, it doesn't mean I have to like the idea of it, or even the implementation. I'm going to play SWTORs space combat too, would I have wanted JTL, X vs Tie, or even Battlefront space combat instead? OF COURSE I would have, but I already went over my disfavor with that many months ago.
Yup, you are definitely getting your jollies from this.
Oh, but don't worry, I am enjoying this too, because you'll still be paying ArenaNet, and they *still* won't be making the game you want GW2 to be.
If thats what you think? Cutting to the chase, I'm a gamer, so even if I don't like one or two features.. or 10 for that matter, if something interests me, even in the slightest, I'll play it, and anything I make a decision to play I've already reserved myself to the understanding that while doing so, I won't be disappointed.
The only way I would be bothered by GW2 not being the game I wanted it to be, would be if it was so unappealing I wouldn't spend the money on it. That would be one hell of a fall from grace. You'd have to be pretty low on the list for me not to consider spending money on you, and as I've stated before, I had enough of a good experience with GW1 that even if GW2 had 20 decisions I wasn't interested in, I'd still most likely play it.
BUT luckily I'll likely get to play GW2 at PAX this year, so my opinions will be much more in tune with what the game offers at the end of it.
I think it's funny how no one complained about flinging fireballs underwater, casting lighting bolts without electrocting themselves, swimming around in full plate without sinking, swinging big clubs under water and actually being effective...the list goes on. But god forbid you move a little faster in water, that's just too unrealistic .
Immersion. Not realism. There's a slight difference.
1) Cat-like humanoids shooting fireballs from the finger tips is obviously not very realistic, but that doesn't mean it's detrimental to the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
2) Muppets from Sesame Street shooting fireballs from the finger tips is obviously not very realistic either, but surely that would ruin the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
3) Muskets and grenades have been used extensively in real life, and it won't break the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
Immersion is about what you'd *expect* to see in the game world. I'd personally expect to see wizardry, gravity, cat-like humanoids and stuff that I associate with Guild Wars 2. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect to see muppets, helicopters, lollipop trees, commandos - or a breathing apparatus.
Sorry for the late reply. I must have missed your post.
I think it's funny how no one complained about flinging fireballs underwater, casting lighting bolts without electrocting themselves, swimming around in full plate without sinking, swinging big clubs under water and actually being effective...the list goes on. But god forbid you move a little faster in water, that's just too unrealistic .
Immersion. Not realism. There's a slight difference.
1) Cat-like humanoids shooting fireballs from the finger tips is obviously not very realistic, but that doesn't mean it's detrimental to the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
2) Muppets from Sesame Street shooting fireballs from the finger tips is obviously not very realistic either, but surely that would ruin the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
3) Muskets and grenades have been used extensively in real life, and it won't break the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
Immersion is about what you'd *expect* to see in the game world. I'd personally expect to see wizardry, gravity, cat-like humanoids and stuff that I associate with Guild Wars 2. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect to see muppets, helicopters, lollipop trees, commandos - or a breathing apparatus.
Sorry for the late reply. I must have missed your post.
I dont get all the talk & complaints about something like a breathing apparatus that ive seen. Why wouldnt you expect to see one? Sure, they didnt have them in GW1, but this isnt in the same time period as GW1, and theres ne wtechnology and magic available to them. Hell w ehave breating apparati in our world through JUST technology, why would you be surprised to see one in a world full of both technology AND magic wher ethey can be combined to create magically enchanted tools.
I dont get all the talk & complaints about something like a breathing apparatus that ive seen. Why wouldnt you expect to see one? Sure, they didnt have them in GW1, but this isnt in the same time period as GW1, and theres ne wtechnology and magic available to them. Hell w ehave breating apparati in our world through JUST technology, why would you be surprised to see one in a world full of both technology AND magic wher ethey can be combined to create magically enchanted tools.
We also have nuclear weapons and stealth bombers in our world with JUST technology. Why can't they have nuclear weapons and stealth bombers in a world full of both technology AND magic?
Also, I tried to explain my point of view on page 1.
I dont get all the talk & complaints about something like a breathing apparatus that ive seen. Why wouldnt you expect to see one? Sure, they didnt have them in GW1, but this isnt in the same time period as GW1, and theres ne wtechnology and magic available to them. Hell w ehave breating apparati in our world through JUST technology, why would you be surprised to see one in a world full of both technology AND magic wher ethey can be combined to create magically enchanted tools.
We also have nuclear weapons and stealth bombers in our world with JUST technology. Why can't they have nuclear weapons and stealth bombers in a world full of both technology AND magic?
Also, I tried to explain my point of view on page 1.
Kind of a dumb question... stealth bombers and nukes are technological advances on the level of which their technology hasnt reached yet.
But lets see they do have things like:
- Magical cloaking / stealthing of individual creatures as well as illsuion magic which could create a "stealth" effect ona larger scale, such as hiding a building... or an airplane if they had them
- Magical powers & creatures hellbent on destroying the world, with destructive powers potentially more powerful than a nuke. After all, a nuke isnt all that big, its the afte reffects which would caus ethe most death & destruction (things like a nuclear winter & the radiation effects spreading) vs oh lets say an evil god-like dragon capable of pretty much obliterating the entire world.
See, youve got to realize that it isnt our world, and they dont have the same things, and havent advanced along the same path as us in many cases. You may see things similar to our technology, but not quite identical to ours. You may see things in some ways more advanced than ours, and others that are less advanced. And then there is the magic added on top of it. Things are going to be completely different in their world compared to ours, and it doesnt have to make sense the way it does in our world. Its a fantasy, and even th elaws of physics dont apply anymore if thats what the devs decide. After all, many of the rules & laws that we live by in our own world on a daily basis only exist because we ARE in our world. Go to a different planet and quite a few things change while others remain the same. For all we know there could even be a planet out there somewhere where their "water" that covers their planet has a completely different molecular makeup which our lungs are able to process and we are able to actually breathe in without needing any special tools. Even on our own planet we have creatures which live on volcanic sulfur, and oxygen is deadly to vs us who need oxygen and would die trying to breathe sulfur. So again, why would you be suprised to see something different than what applies to our own world, in a completely different and imaginary world?
I dont see how a tool for breating under water would be even remotely close to immersion breaking, especially in the face of things like golems being controlled by Asura. Why dont we have Golems? We have nukes and stuff, surely we should have been able to make golems too. Oh wait... we dont have magic powers like they do.
As far as some of the original things you stated, like heavy armor in water... do you know things like the amount of gravity in their world? The buoyancy objects in their water have? The density of their metals? Of course not. Theyre all different than here, and so the same rules dont have to apply.
Again, just look at our own world. Do you think centuries ago when people pretty much only had things like heavy iron they were able to comprehend things we use regularly today like Titanium (which is stronger & lighter than Iron and steel) and other metals which have either been discovered or created through our technological advances? 500 years ago someone would have looked at some of the buildings, airplanes, etc that we have today and though "theres no way that is possible, something that big and that heavy wouldnt be able to hold itself up or fly", simply because they didnt know about the metals which would be available today.
For all you know, their metals could way 1/10 of what they weigh here, and at the same time be 10x stronger. The water could also be capable of holding things afloat that way 10x as much as something floating in water here. Is it likely that would be real... no. But again, its a fantasy, not reality, and the same rules dont apply.
Ok if you are looking for a realistic mmo perhaps you should go somewhere else. Guild wars 2 is a fantasy mmo with some steampunk elements. It's a game still being designed around the philosophy of skill>time. Anet isn't trying to do things to force you to play longer. They want those casual players to be able to get in, do something, and leave. The issue of slower speed movement in half the game would probably annoy plenty of people. It's one of those things where realism is sacrificed in the name of fun. Also, people seem to be confusing immerse and realistic. Realistic does not imply immerse, just as immersive doesn't imply realistic. They are two different concepts. Realistic means its like our world, in other words you wouldn't be able to shoot fireball from your hands. Immersive means how much you are drawn into the game world. The world doesn't have to be realistic for you to be drawn into it.
I think it's funny how no one complained about flinging fireballs underwater, casting lighting bolts without electrocting themselves, swimming around in full plate without sinking, swinging big clubs under water and actually being effective...the list goes on. But god forbid you move a little faster in water, that's just too unrealistic .
Immersion. Not realism. There's a slight difference.
1) Cat-like humanoids shooting fireballs from the finger tips is obviously not very realistic, but that doesn't mean it's detrimental to the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
2) Muppets from Sesame Street shooting fireballs from the finger tips is obviously not very realistic either, but surely that would ruin the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
3) Muskets and grenades have been used extensively in real life, and it won't break the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
Immersion is about what you'd *expect* to see in the game world. I'd personally expect to see wizardry, gravity, cat-like humanoids and stuff that I associate with Guild Wars 2. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect to see muppets, helicopters, lollipop trees, commandos - or a breathing apparatus.
Sorry for the late reply. I must have missed your post.
Not a problem for the late reply, now back to arguing .
I just really don't see why a breathing appartus doesn't fit with GW2. Commandos, muppets, and helicopters obviously do not fit. They are thematically different from GW2 because they are too much like our own world (thus, not fantasy). Then again, I don't think a Charr "Commando" would be far-fetched. Just a Charr with a gun and some stealth tricks. It's only far-fetched when you break the theme by giving the Commando and M4, Semtex explosives, and the ability to call in air strikes and predator missiles .
Moving on, RPGs have had water breathing spells for I don't know how long. Is it that far fetched that some wizard could have enchanted a mask with water breathing? We're not talking about SCUBA Steve here, it's just a mask, magical or otherwise that lets you breathe underwater. It's fantasy.
And if the mask has a technological origin, we're talking about a world where there are giant robots powered by Steam. There are turrets that essentially fire cannon balls but have artifical intelligence and robotics advanced enough to distinguish hostile targets from friendly ones and automatically orient themselves and fire upon the hostiles. That's advanced by today's standards. The point is, it's fantasy. It's just technological fantasy. I don't see how a breathing apparatus that works by some fantastical technology doesn't fit in with the rest of these.
If you don't like steam/clock punk in general because you prefer a more realistic depiction of technology, or you don't like mixing technology with magical fantasy, then that's a valid opinion, I can't argue with that. But to accept all these other technological impossibilities but harp on a breathing mask? That's just silly.
I hated water magic in gw1 because it does nothing but reduce your movement speed. It's frustrating. I love the idea of unaffected movement underwater.
You should try it in PvP, melee characters can't do anything but just attempt to get to you.
To every poster who's crying about underwater combat, realism and immersion.
STOP BEING IGNORANTS
How does normal movement underwater break your immersion and REALISM when shooting fireballs from hand does not?
How is it so that 50 shots in the face or 100 sword stabs in the gut required to kill pc/npc don't break your immersion and you don't whine about realism?
How is it so huge sized dragons the size of mountain made from magic don't break your immersion and the feel of realism.
Why the infinite running does not break immersion and realism? Seriously try running for whole day IRL. I don't see people force-walking instead of running in mmo's.
This is pure ignorance on your part. To answer above. Because games aren't made to be replica of RL. They are made to be an alternative world and to BRING FUN.
I don't care if i move in plate underwater as fast as on land as long as it's fun and i enjoy the content. Would you really enjoy fantasy mmo where 1-2 arrows/sword cuts etc would instantly kill you?
Realism is the most retarded argument ever made in case of mmorpgs. If you want realism go outside your room and live a normal life. Games aren't supposed to be something we already have. Geez.
Realism is the most retarded argument ever made in case of mmorpgs. If you want realism go outside your room and live a normal life. Games aren't supposed to be something we already have. Geez.
Ammount of ignorance here is staggering.
I totally agree with this! A Game in which, if you take a bullet you're down or dead. What a great game that would be eh!? It doesn't need to be realistic. If it looks believable, or fits, in the GW2 fantasy setting that's all that really matters.
To the people who do insist on "realism", go look elsewhere already. GW is fantasy! You don't like it? Tough, maybe create a game yourself that was made especially for you. Then you won't need to whine about anything. Everything will be just right!
When the Engineer first came out I tought it was too technologically advanced, so what? From all the bits and pieces of GW2 info I had put together some idea of what the game would be like. And then along comes the Engineer and whoah, not what I expected! Mayday, mayday! Uh no. Take a step back, take in the extra info. Look at all the available pieces of the puzzle again. You either like it enough to play or you don't. If underwater combat breaks the game for you then I'm sorry in your stead.
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
I dont see what the big deal is really...if you dont like the water then dont go in it...nuff sed
Guild Wars 2 actually has a huge amount of underwater content. So not having dive is actually not realistic if you want experience most of the game.
all the more reason to not be hindered by slower movement.
BReathing and slow movement in other games just pissed me off and annoyed the hell out of me every time i had to do it.
Underwater combat is balanced around the normal movement speed as well. It's some people wanting to make their life harder and have chores instead of fun
I didn't look it up, but according to Loke666, the sentry gun made its appearence in the 60's. Maybe nuclear weapons isn't so far-fetched after all?
Originally posted by bookworm438
Ok if you are looking for a realistic mmo perhaps you should go somewhere else. Guild wars 2 is a fantasy mmo with some steampunk elements. It's a game still being designed around the philosophy of skill>time. Anet isn't trying to do things to force you to play longer. They want those casual players to be able to get in, do something, and leave. The issue of slower speed movement in half the game would probably annoy plenty of people. It's one of those things where realism is sacrificed in the name of fun.
Also, people seem to be confusing immerse and realistic. Realistic does not imply immerse, just as immersive doesn't imply realistic. They are two different concepts. Realistic means its like our world, in other words you wouldn't be able to shoot fireball from your hands. Immersive means how much you are drawn into the game world. The world doesn't have to be realistic for you to be drawn into it.
That's exactly what I wrote in post #81. Nobody in their right mind would ever pick up a fantasy game and expect a high level of realism. I don't even know why we're using the word "realism" in this context when, in fact, we're talking about immersion.
I didn't look it up, but according to Loke666, the sentry gun made its appearence in the 60's. Maybe nuclear weapons isn't so far-fetched after all?
Originally posted by bookworm438
Ok if you are looking for a realistic mmo perhaps you should go somewhere else. Guild wars 2 is a fantasy mmo with some steampunk elements. It's a game still being designed around the philosophy of skill>time. Anet isn't trying to do things to force you to play longer. They want those casual players to be able to get in, do something, and leave. The issue of slower speed movement in half the game would probably annoy plenty of people. It's one of those things where realism is sacrificed in the name of fun.
Also, people seem to be confusing immerse and realistic. Realistic does not imply immerse, just as immersive doesn't imply realistic. They are two different concepts. Realistic means its like our world, in other words you wouldn't be able to shoot fireball from your hands. Immersive means how much you are drawn into the game world. The world doesn't have to be realistic for you to be drawn into it.
That's exactly what I wrote in post #81. Nobody in their right mind would ever pick up a fantasy game and expect a high level of realism. I don't even know why we're using the word "realism" in this context when, in fact, we're talking about immersion.
That's exactly what I wrote in post #81. Nobody in their right mind would ever pick up a fantasy game and expect a high level of realism. I don't even know why we're using the word "realism" in this context when, in fact, we're talking about immersion.
Because you've already proven your version of immersion is almost completely useless as a term.
Seriously. 'Hey. We're the guys who made this world and designed this game. There are underwater breathing masks in this world. TRUE FACTS. We wrote it in the book of history! Jeff Grubb gave it the thumbs up. OUr artists drew it. Our game designers programmed it. If you read the Big Book of GW2 Lore, it's in there. It's A FACT.'
Then you: 'No. Uhm, no, there can't be breathing devices, that doesn't make sense, because it damages my immersion'
You can't come up with any better reason than 'ruins my personal immersion'.
Not 'it's technomagically unfeasible' (Good luck proving that), or 'People in GW2 don't have the level of ability to create such a thing' (Good luck proving that as well) or 'They showed canonically that the idea goes against everything their culture stands for' (Also. Good luck)
So it is 100% internally consistent with the world as they designed it.
Your immersion... is useless. That's why we're talking about realism, because we can't figure out anything about your immersion other than it's all in your head and there's no way to determine what rules you are using to say whether something is immersive or not.
This is like me talking about Transformers and saying 'You know what bothers me? One of the changes into a jet. Okay, cars, I'm cool with, but when one changes into a jet? RUINS MY IMMERSION. Why does it ruin my immersion? Because jet. JET.'
This is a clear sign that people should ignore me and my immersion.
(edit: As I read this, I realize it may come across as a bit harsh. What you have to understand is that your immersion may be useful for you, but to anybody else whose sense of immersion is feeling fine, it makes absolutely no sense. There is no 'objective sense of immersion' involved here. There is no blatant internal contradictions, the sort that ruin storytelling. LIke say... saying that Charr cannot go in water because they melt when exposed to large quantities of water, then having underwater content they frolic in freely. That would be immersion breaking, because it is violating the rules of the world, and that is immersion breaking in a purely objective fashion. So far as anybody can tell, your immersion is from a purely subjective, touchy-feely sort of viewpoint, and since we're not magical empaths, it's not understandable, or useful as a reference point for talking about whether GW2 has immersion or not.)
No, but may I assume that you are so heavy on immersion and realism that you also scoff at the idea of tab-targeting and homing projectiles, both of which can be found in most MMORPGs, and that so far you have invested quite some time in proving people that these two mechanics are wrong?
You can't come up with any better reason than 'ruins my personal immersion'.
Allow me to quote myself:
"To me, they're sacrificing immersion on the alter of convenience."
"... and the breathing apparatus, which in my opinion is a lame excuse for endless breath"
"I'd personally expect to see wizardry, gravity, cat-like humanoids and stuff that I associate with Guild Wars 2. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect to see muppets, helicopters, lollipop trees, commandos - or a breathing apparatus."
"My opinion of course."
I think I've made it quite clear so far, that it is all personal opinion.
No, but may I assume that you are so heavy on immersion and realism that you also scoff at the idea of tab-targeting and homing projectiles, both of which can be found in most MMORPGs, and that so far you have invested quite some time in proving people that these two mechanics are wrong?
Heavy on immersion? Yes, most definitely. Realism? Not so much. You'd know that if you'd read any of my previous posts.
Realism has no place though in a reality which is not real, a fabricated reality can obey any physical laws it desires, so even citing realism is utterly preposterous. We all realise this on some intellectual level, yes? So any citations of realism are just posturing.
You can't come up with any better reason than 'ruins my personal immersion'.
Allow me to quote myself:
"To me, they're sacrificing immersion on the alter of convenience."
"... and the breathing apparatus, which in my opinion is a lame excuse for endless breath"
"I'd personally expect to see wizardry, gravity, cat-like humanoids and stuff that I associate with Guild Wars 2. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect to see muppets, helicopters, lollipop trees, commandos - or a breathing apparatus."
"My opinion of course."
I think I've made it quite clear so far, that it is all personal opinion.
Okay...so let's concentrate on why a breathing mask breaks your immersion. "Because it's convenient" isn't really a reason.
Do you accept other typical fantasy explanations for water breathing like a spell of water breathing or a potion of water breathing? These are pretty standard, they've been in MMORPGs since like Everquest.
I think why we're all so confused is that if you accept these typical water breathing methods, then it doesn't really make sense why you wouldn't accept a breathing mask. A breathing mask is such a short logical leap from a spell of water breathing. If you accept the concept of a spell that lets you breathe water, and the concept that items can be enchanted (magical items), then breathing mask really flows so easily from those two concepts.
So what exactly is it about a breathing mask that isn't immersive for you?
Comments
Just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I should stop posting it. There isn't a "my game is better than your game mentality" this thread was written to try and say "Hey look, there is a movement penalty" and there isn't.
I've stated my opinion, and people come back and try and tell me my opinions wrong, I could not try and clarify so that people could understand it and just leave it alone, or I could play the game with a little back and forth to see if people could at least step away from their fandom for just a moment to see another point of view.
While saying simply "Yes, you are right, they took away just about everything that makes underwater combat different than land combat, but that doesn't bother me, in fact, I like it" would be pretty much the end of this exchange, people love to try and prove a preference wrong. If you like breathing underwater, and leaving your non-underwater-breathing-apparatus-land-based-pets (or the inconsequential non-air-breathing-apparatus-underwater-based-pets) behind whilst you walk around aimlessly beneath the ocean for hours at a time in the same fashion you do on land just with a blue tint to everything, then I'm ALL FOR that, for you.
I'll be playing this underwater content TOO, because I'm still going to buy the game, it doesn't mean I have to like the idea of it, or even the implementation. I'm going to play SWTORs space combat too, would I have wanted JTL, X vs Tie, or even Battlefront space combat instead? OF COURSE I would have, but I already went over my disfavor with that many months ago.
I'm pretty sure ArenaNet intends on you using the water to get away or take shortcuts. It can have multiple purposes. Though getting away from a mob may not go so well since many mobs have an underwater combat, and you are vulnerable while swimming on the surface. People will use water to get away from mobs or as shortcuts anyway, regardless of movement effects. Also, just because you walk into the water doesn't mean you've lost aggro. Watch one of the developer videos on underwater combat.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in using all your resources to avoid dying, including water.
Yup, you are definitely getting your jollies from this.
Oh, but don't worry, I am enjoying this too, because you'll still be paying ArenaNet, and they *still* won't be making the game you want GW2 to be.
If thats what you think? Cutting to the chase, I'm a gamer, so even if I don't like one or two features.. or 10 for that matter, if something interests me, even in the slightest, I'll play it, and anything I make a decision to play I've already reserved myself to the understanding that while doing so, I won't be disappointed.
The only way I would be bothered by GW2 not being the game I wanted it to be, would be if it was so unappealing I wouldn't spend the money on it. That would be one hell of a fall from grace. You'd have to be pretty low on the list for me not to consider spending money on you, and as I've stated before, I had enough of a good experience with GW1 that even if GW2 had 20 decisions I wasn't interested in, I'd still most likely play it.
BUT luckily I'll likely get to play GW2 at PAX this year, so my opinions will be much more in tune with what the game offers at the end of it.
Immersion. Not realism. There's a slight difference.
1) Cat-like humanoids shooting fireballs from the finger tips is obviously not very realistic, but that doesn't mean it's detrimental to the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
2) Muppets from Sesame Street shooting fireballs from the finger tips is obviously not very realistic either, but surely that would ruin the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
3) Muskets and grenades have been used extensively in real life, and it won't break the immersion in Guild Wars 2.
4) Commandos are quite real too, but they would most definitely break the immersion in Guild Wars 2 (April Fools' Day link: http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/commando/).
Immersion is about what you'd *expect* to see in the game world. I'd personally expect to see wizardry, gravity, cat-like humanoids and stuff that I associate with Guild Wars 2. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect to see muppets, helicopters, lollipop trees, commandos - or a breathing apparatus.
Sorry for the late reply. I must have missed your post.
I dont get all the talk & complaints about something like a breathing apparatus that ive seen. Why wouldnt you expect to see one? Sure, they didnt have them in GW1, but this isnt in the same time period as GW1, and theres ne wtechnology and magic available to them. Hell w ehave breating apparati in our world through JUST technology, why would you be surprised to see one in a world full of both technology AND magic wher ethey can be combined to create magically enchanted tools.
We also have nuclear weapons and stealth bombers in our world with JUST technology. Why can't they have nuclear weapons and stealth bombers in a world full of both technology AND magic?
Also, I tried to explain my point of view on page 1.
Kind of a dumb question... stealth bombers and nukes are technological advances on the level of which their technology hasnt reached yet.
But lets see they do have things like:
- Magical cloaking / stealthing of individual creatures as well as illsuion magic which could create a "stealth" effect ona larger scale, such as hiding a building... or an airplane if they had them
- Magical powers & creatures hellbent on destroying the world, with destructive powers potentially more powerful than a nuke. After all, a nuke isnt all that big, its the afte reffects which would caus ethe most death & destruction (things like a nuclear winter & the radiation effects spreading) vs oh lets say an evil god-like dragon capable of pretty much obliterating the entire world.
See, youve got to realize that it isnt our world, and they dont have the same things, and havent advanced along the same path as us in many cases. You may see things similar to our technology, but not quite identical to ours. You may see things in some ways more advanced than ours, and others that are less advanced. And then there is the magic added on top of it. Things are going to be completely different in their world compared to ours, and it doesnt have to make sense the way it does in our world. Its a fantasy, and even th elaws of physics dont apply anymore if thats what the devs decide. After all, many of the rules & laws that we live by in our own world on a daily basis only exist because we ARE in our world. Go to a different planet and quite a few things change while others remain the same. For all we know there could even be a planet out there somewhere where their "water" that covers their planet has a completely different molecular makeup which our lungs are able to process and we are able to actually breathe in without needing any special tools. Even on our own planet we have creatures which live on volcanic sulfur, and oxygen is deadly to vs us who need oxygen and would die trying to breathe sulfur. So again, why would you be suprised to see something different than what applies to our own world, in a completely different and imaginary world?
I dont see how a tool for breating under water would be even remotely close to immersion breaking, especially in the face of things like golems being controlled by Asura. Why dont we have Golems? We have nukes and stuff, surely we should have been able to make golems too. Oh wait... we dont have magic powers like they do.
As far as some of the original things you stated, like heavy armor in water... do you know things like the amount of gravity in their world? The buoyancy objects in their water have? The density of their metals? Of course not. Theyre all different than here, and so the same rules dont have to apply.
Again, just look at our own world. Do you think centuries ago when people pretty much only had things like heavy iron they were able to comprehend things we use regularly today like Titanium (which is stronger & lighter than Iron and steel) and other metals which have either been discovered or created through our technological advances? 500 years ago someone would have looked at some of the buildings, airplanes, etc that we have today and though "theres no way that is possible, something that big and that heavy wouldnt be able to hold itself up or fly", simply because they didnt know about the metals which would be available today.
For all you know, their metals could way 1/10 of what they weigh here, and at the same time be 10x stronger. The water could also be capable of holding things afloat that way 10x as much as something floating in water here. Is it likely that would be real... no. But again, its a fantasy, not reality, and the same rules dont apply.
Also, people seem to be confusing immerse and realistic. Realistic does not imply immerse, just as immersive doesn't imply realistic. They are two different concepts. Realistic means its like our world, in other words you wouldn't be able to shoot fireball from your hands. Immersive means how much you are drawn into the game world. The world doesn't have to be realistic for you to be drawn into it.
Not a problem for the late reply, now back to arguing
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I just really don't see why a breathing appartus doesn't fit with GW2. Commandos, muppets, and helicopters obviously do not fit. They are thematically different from GW2 because they are too much like our own world (thus, not fantasy). Then again, I don't think a Charr "Commando" would be far-fetched. Just a Charr with a gun and some stealth tricks. It's only far-fetched when you break the theme by giving the Commando and M4, Semtex explosives, and the ability to call in air strikes and predator missiles
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Moving on, RPGs have had water breathing spells for I don't know how long. Is it that far fetched that some wizard could have enchanted a mask with water breathing? We're not talking about SCUBA Steve here, it's just a mask, magical or otherwise that lets you breathe underwater. It's fantasy.
And if the mask has a technological origin, we're talking about a world where there are giant robots powered by Steam. There are turrets that essentially fire cannon balls but have artifical intelligence and robotics advanced enough to distinguish hostile targets from friendly ones and automatically orient themselves and fire upon the hostiles. That's advanced by today's standards. The point is, it's fantasy. It's just technological fantasy. I don't see how a breathing apparatus that works by some fantastical technology doesn't fit in with the rest of these.
If you don't like steam/clock punk in general because you prefer a more realistic depiction of technology, or you don't like mixing technology with magical fantasy, then that's a valid opinion, I can't argue with that. But to accept all these other technological impossibilities but harp on a breathing mask? That's just silly.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I dont see what the big deal is really...if you dont like the water then dont go in it...nuff sed
You should try it in PvP, melee characters can't do anything but just attempt to get to you.
This is not a game.
To every poster who's crying about underwater combat, realism and immersion.
STOP BEING IGNORANTS
How does normal movement underwater break your immersion and REALISM when shooting fireballs from hand does not?
How is it so that 50 shots in the face or 100 sword stabs in the gut required to kill pc/npc don't break your immersion and you don't whine about realism?
How is it so huge sized dragons the size of mountain made from magic don't break your immersion and the feel of realism.
Why the infinite running does not break immersion and realism? Seriously try running for whole day IRL. I don't see people force-walking instead of running in mmo's.
This is pure ignorance on your part. To answer above. Because games aren't made to be replica of RL. They are made to be an alternative world and to BRING FUN.
I don't care if i move in plate underwater as fast as on land as long as it's fun and i enjoy the content. Would you really enjoy fantasy mmo where 1-2 arrows/sword cuts etc would instantly kill you?
Realism is the most retarded argument ever made in case of mmorpgs. If you want realism go outside your room and live a normal life. Games aren't supposed to be something we already have. Geez.
Ammount of ignorance here is staggering.
I totally agree with this! A Game in which, if you take a bullet you're down or dead. What a great game that would be eh!? It doesn't need to be realistic. If it looks believable, or fits, in the GW2 fantasy setting that's all that really matters.
To the people who do insist on "realism", go look elsewhere already. GW is fantasy! You don't like it? Tough, maybe create a game yourself that was made especially for you. Then you won't need to whine about anything. Everything will be just right!
When the Engineer first came out I tought it was too technologically advanced, so what? From all the bits and pieces of GW2 info I had put together some idea of what the game would be like. And then along comes the Engineer and whoah, not what I expected! Mayday, mayday! Uh no. Take a step back, take in the extra info. Look at all the available pieces of the puzzle again. You either like it enough to play or you don't. If underwater combat breaks the game for you then I'm sorry in your stead.
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
Guild Wars 2 actually has a huge amount of underwater content. So not having dive is actually not realistic if you want experience most of the game.
all the more reason to not be hindered by slower movement.
BReathing and slow movement in other games just pissed me off and annoyed the hell out of me every time i had to do it.
Underwater combat is balanced around the normal movement speed as well. It's some people wanting to make their life harder and have chores instead of fun
I posted a brief timeline in post #22.
1885: First motorcycle.
1903: First controlled flight.
1925: First free-swimming air scuba set.
1945: First nuclear weapon test.
I didn't look it up, but according to Loke666, the sentry gun made its appearence in the 60's. Maybe nuclear weapons isn't so far-fetched after all?
That's exactly what I wrote in post #81. Nobody in their right mind would ever pick up a fantasy game and expect a high level of realism. I don't even know why we're using the word "realism" in this context when, in fact, we're talking about immersion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puckle_Gun
This should end the "sentry gun controversy".
Does it have an automated targeting system?
Because you've already proven your version of immersion is almost completely useless as a term.
Seriously. 'Hey. We're the guys who made this world and designed this game. There are underwater breathing masks in this world. TRUE FACTS. We wrote it in the book of history! Jeff Grubb gave it the thumbs up. OUr artists drew it. Our game designers programmed it. If you read the Big Book of GW2 Lore, it's in there. It's A FACT.'
Then you: 'No. Uhm, no, there can't be breathing devices, that doesn't make sense, because it damages my immersion'
You can't come up with any better reason than 'ruins my personal immersion'.
Not 'it's technomagically unfeasible' (Good luck proving that), or 'People in GW2 don't have the level of ability to create such a thing' (Good luck proving that as well) or 'They showed canonically that the idea goes against everything their culture stands for' (Also. Good luck)
So it is 100% internally consistent with the world as they designed it.
Your immersion... is useless. That's why we're talking about realism, because we can't figure out anything about your immersion other than it's all in your head and there's no way to determine what rules you are using to say whether something is immersive or not.
This is like me talking about Transformers and saying 'You know what bothers me? One of the changes into a jet. Okay, cars, I'm cool with, but when one changes into a jet? RUINS MY IMMERSION. Why does it ruin my immersion? Because jet. JET.'
This is a clear sign that people should ignore me and my immersion.
(edit: As I read this, I realize it may come across as a bit harsh. What you have to understand is that your immersion may be useful for you, but to anybody else whose sense of immersion is feeling fine, it makes absolutely no sense. There is no 'objective sense of immersion' involved here. There is no blatant internal contradictions, the sort that ruin storytelling. LIke say... saying that Charr cannot go in water because they melt when exposed to large quantities of water, then having underwater content they frolic in freely. That would be immersion breaking, because it is violating the rules of the world, and that is immersion breaking in a purely objective fashion. So far as anybody can tell, your immersion is from a purely subjective, touchy-feely sort of viewpoint, and since we're not magical empaths, it's not understandable, or useful as a reference point for talking about whether GW2 has immersion or not.)
No, but may I assume that you are so heavy on immersion and realism that you also scoff at the idea of tab-targeting and homing projectiles, both of which can be found in most MMORPGs, and that so far you have invested quite some time in proving people that these two mechanics are wrong?
Allow me to quote myself:
"To me, they're sacrificing immersion on the alter of convenience."
"... and the breathing apparatus, which in my opinion is a lame excuse for endless breath"
"I'd personally expect to see wizardry, gravity, cat-like humanoids and stuff that I associate with Guild Wars 2. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect to see muppets, helicopters, lollipop trees, commandos - or a breathing apparatus."
"My opinion of course."
I think I've made it quite clear so far, that it is all personal opinion.
Heavy on immersion? Yes, most definitely. Realism? Not so much. You'd know that if you'd read any of my previous posts.
Realism has no place though in a reality which is not real, a fabricated reality can obey any physical laws it desires, so even citing realism is utterly preposterous. We all realise this on some intellectual level, yes? So any citations of realism are just posturing.
Okay...so let's concentrate on why a breathing mask breaks your immersion. "Because it's convenient" isn't really a reason.
Do you accept other typical fantasy explanations for water breathing like a spell of water breathing or a potion of water breathing? These are pretty standard, they've been in MMORPGs since like Everquest.
I think why we're all so confused is that if you accept these typical water breathing methods, then it doesn't really make sense why you wouldn't accept a breathing mask. A breathing mask is such a short logical leap from a spell of water breathing. If you accept the concept of a spell that lets you breathe water, and the concept that items can be enchanted (magical items), then breathing mask really flows so easily from those two concepts.
So what exactly is it about a breathing mask that isn't immersive for you?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?