If that is the case then I will apologize for accusing. Just thought it funny that certain names pop up a lot in GW forums and I just got through reading some of your less than enthusiastic and more judgemental remarks in the thread about Health pools. I also think it is funny when some people use the claim they plan on playing the game so they have a valid justification to bash it to hell and make there "concerns" seem valid because they plan on giving it a try. thats a cop-out imo. It is late and as I said I just went from one topic to the next and a couple of names stood out for some reason.
The part that stood out in the other thread the most was you placen words in Anets mouth and saying it was their fault for "wording" things a certain way then Romanator0 gave you the exact quote from the team. Sorry but that was exactly what I was talking about. If I was mistaken your intentions it's your fault for "wording things wrong and looking for trouble."
I also acknowledged I was wrong about that, as well as got info from the wrong avenues and you're right I also see that sort of thing here a lot myself. I can asure you however I don't have an intention of bashing GW2 or any game, I just like to understand them and the wording used to describe them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If that is the case then I will apologize for accusing. Just thought it funny that certain names pop up a lot in GW forums and I just got through reading some of your less than enthusiastic and more judgemental remarks in the thread about Health pools. I also think it is funny when some people use the claim they plan on playing the game so they have a valid justification to bash it to hell and make there "concerns" seem valid because they plan on giving it a try. thats a cop-out imo. It is late and as I said I just went from one topic to the next and a couple of names stood out for some reason.
The part that stood out in the other thread the most was you placen words in Anets mouth and saying it was their fault for "wording" things a certain way then Romanator0 gave you the exact quote from the team. Sorry but that was exactly what I was talking about. If I was mistaken your intentions it's your fault for "wording things wrong and looking for trouble."
I also acknowledged I was wrong about that, as well as got info from the wrong avenues and you're right I also see that sort of thing here a lot myself. I can asure you however I don't have an intention of bashing GW2 or any game, I just like to understand them and the wording used to describe them.
I believe you, you're kind of like how I am on the SWTOR forums. I favor GW2, but I'm still interested in SWTOR, even though I don't agree with all of BW's design decisions. The only true "fanboish" GW2 basher I can think of is Maskedweasel .
(It's really worth pointing out that everything i say here has that base motivation behind it. One might not realise it, but it does, and I'll use many vectors of entry for trying to get my points across. Even if it comes down to insults, sarcasm, or even reverse psychology. Sometimes I really just want to kick MMORPG players up the butt and that's what I'm doing. Guild Wars 2 is a great game for so many reasons, because it fits things that the MMORPG needs to be.
I feel that so many MMORPGs out there actually encourage people to be xenophobic, basement dwelling, traditionalist, anti-progress, small-minded, culturally stunted jerks, I think the games groom them into that mindset. It's a different approach to Farmville, but it's just as effective, and it creates players for life.
I am so sick of seeing that. You have no idea. No idea. So I'm going to do my best to knock as many people out of that cycle as I can. Call it being an arsehole if you want, call it whatever you like, people can call me the antichrist, or they can think of it as tough love. It's not really relevant. I just want people to question these MMORPGs they've devoted their lives to and the values they've been teaching them. From the little things like "It's important to have a faction to hate and racism is something you should learn." to "You can acquire real social worth from a videogame!".
I don't think these are values that we should be teaching anyone.)
DC...I'm sorry, but Meowhead was trying to help you out and I think you missed the point.
I'm not sure if you were trying for this, but I think your post came of as very arrogant, high-handed, and self-righteous. The crazy thing is, I'm actually on your side with your views of MMORPGs, but I found myself wanting to disagree with you, just because of how you wrote your post.
Nobody wants to be talked down to, and that's exactly what you're doing in your post. You're acting as if your views are 100% correct, and it's your mission to convert anyone who holds an inferior viewpoint to the light. I don't think you're really going to "convert" anyone with this approach.
If you're serious about trying to get people to see things your way, then think about this...
A lot of arguments may start because people honestly disagree about things, but many of them continue simply because we all have a primitive need to be "right." We want to "win" the argument simply so we can "win." We view conceding an argument as a "loss," and nobody wants to lose, so many arguments go on with neither side conceding anything so as to avoid losing.
So if you charge ahead like a bull in your arguments, never giving the other person any ground, they are just going to stand firmer in their viewpoints. You're actually accomplishing the opposite of what you want, you're just making people more stubborn in beliefs that you disagree with.
In my opinion, if you want to actually have people see things your way, you have to try to see things theirs as well. Give a little ground to them, and they will be more willing to give some to you.
Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by Dream_Chaser
....
(It's really worth pointing out that everything i say here has that base motivation behind it. One might not realise it, but it does, and I'll use many vectors of entry for trying to get my points across. Even if it comes down to insults, sarcasm, or even reverse psychology. Sometimes I really just want to kick MMORPG players up the butt and that's what I'm doing. Guild Wars 2 is a great game for so many reasons, because it fits things that the MMORPG needs to be. I feel that so many MMORPGs out there actually encourage people to be xenophobic, basement dwelling, traditionalist, anti-progress, small-minded, culturally stunted jerks, I think the games groom them into that mindset. It's a different approach to Farmville, but it's just as effective, and it creates players for life. I am so sick of seeing that. You have no idea. No idea. So I'm going to do my best to knock as many people out of that cycle as I can. Call it being an arsehole if you want, call it whatever you like, people can call me the antichrist, or they can think of it as tough love. It's not really relevant. I just want people to question these MMORPGs they've devoted their lives to and the values they've been teaching them. From the little things like "It's important to have a faction to hate and racism is something you should learn." to "You can acquire real social worth from a videogame!". I don't think these are values that we should be teaching anyone.) DC...I'm sorry, but Meowhead was trying to help you out and I think you missed the point. I'm not sure if you were trying for this, but I think your post came of as very arrogant, high-handed, and self-righteous. The crazy thing is, I'm actually on your side with your views of MMORPGs, but I found myself wanting to disagree with you, just because of how you wrote your post. Nobody wants to be talked down to, and that's exactly what you're doing in your post. You're acting as if your views are 100% correct, and it's your mission to convert anyone who holds an inferior viewpoint to the light. I don't think you're really going to "convert" anyone with this approach. If you're serious about trying to get people to see things your way, then think about this... A lot of arguments may start because people honestly disagree about things, but many of them continue simply because we all have a primitive need to be "right." We want to "win" the argument simply so we can "win." We view conceding an argument as a "loss," and nobody wants to lose, so many arguments go on with neither side conceding anything so as to avoid losing. So if you charge ahead like a bull in your arguments, never giving the other person any ground, they are just going to stand firmer in their viewpoints. You're actually accomplishing the opposite of what you want, you're just making people more stubborn in beliefs that you disagree with. In my opinion, if you want to actually have people see things your way, you have to try to see things theirs as well. Give a little ground to them, and they will be more willing to give some to you.
Well said. Dream_Chaser's posts are very well thought out and articulate. You can tell he put a lot of time into them and cares a great deal about the subject matter. But I think he sometimes misses the point of a discussion forum and comes off a little too agenda based.
If that is the case then I will apologize for accusing. Just thought it funny that certain names pop up a lot in GW forums and I just got through reading some of your less than enthusiastic and more judgemental remarks in the thread about Health pools. I also think it is funny when some people use the claim they plan on playing the game so they have a valid justification to bash it to hell and make there "concerns" seem valid because they plan on giving it a try. thats a cop-out imo. It is late and as I said I just went from one topic to the next and a couple of names stood out for some reason.
The part that stood out in the other thread the most was you placen words in Anets mouth and saying it was their fault for "wording" things a certain way then Romanator0 gave you the exact quote from the team. Sorry but that was exactly what I was talking about. If I was mistaken your intentions it's your fault for "wording things wrong and looking for trouble."
I also acknowledged I was wrong about that, as well as got info from the wrong avenues and you're right I also see that sort of thing here a lot myself. I can asure you however I don't have an intention of bashing GW2 or any game, I just like to understand them and the wording used to describe them.
I believe you, you're kind of like how I am on the SWTOR forums. I favor GW2, but I'm still interested in SWTOR, even though I don't agree with all of BW's design decisions. The only true "fanboish" GW2 basher I can think of is Maskedweasel .
I have to agree he, seems to love frequenting the GW2 forums looking for an argument. I generally don't enjoy internet arguments. but if the person you are talking to is rational in their ideas it is nice to get a different perspective sometimes. I also don't usually call anyone out, but it was late and some names appear here too often for no other reason than to bash and it makes little sence to me. I have been to the SWTOR forum looking for new info like I was when I frequented FFXIV. I still go there looking to see if theres anything to draw my attention, but I don't have anything to add to any discussion so I just read.
So now we have water that doens't feel like water. AAA developers always manage to surprise me with their absurd logic.
I'm going to ruin all your gaming experiences forever, right now.
Ready?
Nothing in games really feels like it does in real life.
Especially in MMORPGs.
Actual sword combat? Nothing at all like they show in MMOs. Running? Doesn't really work that way with armor. Everything you see in an MMO? Totally false and done for the purposes of gameplay. You play the game but... think about this.... how many times have you watched your MMORPG character use the bathroom? DOES NOT FEEL REAL.
Now you can't enjoy MMOs at all. Sorry.
(On another less spoiler-tastic note, I'd like to point out that in most MMOs you can do things like throw fireballs underwater. How does that feel more like water? GW2 has lots of watery features, like bubbles! ... and gently swaying plant life underwater. Also fish. In many ways it feels more like underwater than many other games. Or is the only way you determine whether something is water or not is the amount of resistance it gives and how well it suffocates people? Do people using scuba gear not have an underwater experience?)
So now we have water that doens't feel like water. AAA developers always manage to surprise me with their absurd logic.
I'm going to ruin all your gaming experiences forever, right now.
Ready?
Nothing in games really feels like it does in real life.
Especially in MMORPGs.
Actual sword combat? Nothing at all like they show in MMOs. Running? Doesn't really work that way with armor. Everything you see in an MMO? Totally false and done for the purposes of gameplay. You play the game but... think about this.... how many times have you watched your MMORPG character use the bathroom? DOES NOT FEEL REAL.
Now you can't enjoy MMOs at all. Sorry.
(On another less spoiler-tastic note, I'd like to point out that in most MMOs you can do things like throw fireballs underwater. How does that feel more like water? GW2 has lots of watery features, like bubbles! ... and gently swaying plant life underwater. Also fish. In many ways it feels more like underwater than many other games. Or is the only way you determine whether something is water or not is the amount of resistance it gives and how well it suffocates people? Do people using scuba gear not have an underwater experience?)
SCUBA gear and flippers has ruined the underwater experience for me in real life, and now fast movement and breathing devices has ruined the underwater experience for me in GW2! God!
So now we have water that doens't feel like water. AAA developers always manage to surprise me with their absurd logic.
I'm going to ruin all your gaming experiences forever, right now.
Ready?
Nothing in games really feels like it does in real life.
Especially in MMORPGs.
Actual sword combat? Nothing at all like they show in MMOs. Running? Doesn't really work that way with armor. Everything you see in an MMO? Totally false and done for the purposes of gameplay. You play the game but... think about this.... how many times have you watched your MMORPG character use the bathroom? DOES NOT FEEL REAL.
Now you can't enjoy MMOs at all. Sorry.
(On another less spoiler-tastic note, I'd like to point out that in most MMOs you can do things like throw fireballs underwater. How does that feel more like water? GW2 has lots of watery features, like bubbles! ... and gently swaying plant life underwater. Also fish. In many ways it feels more like underwater than many other games. Or is the only way you determine whether something is water or not is the amount of resistance it gives and how well it suffocates people? Do people using scuba gear not have an underwater experience?)
I have to say I really enjoy reading meowheads posts. This one actually made me laugh. Keep shedding light on others stupidy and fragmented and broken logic, its hillariouse.
If that is the case then I will apologize for accusing. Just thought it funny that certain names pop up a lot in GW forums and I just got through reading some of your less than enthusiastic and more judgemental remarks in the thread about Health pools. I also think it is funny when some people use the claim they plan on playing the game so they have a valid justification to bash it to hell and make there "concerns" seem valid because they plan on giving it a try. thats a cop-out imo. It is late and as I said I just went from one topic to the next and a couple of names stood out for some reason.
The part that stood out in the other thread the most was you placen words in Anets mouth and saying it was their fault for "wording" things a certain way then Romanator0 gave you the exact quote from the team. Sorry but that was exactly what I was talking about. If I was mistaken your intentions it's your fault for "wording things wrong and looking for trouble."
I also acknowledged I was wrong about that, as well as got info from the wrong avenues and you're right I also see that sort of thing here a lot myself. I can asure you however I don't have an intention of bashing GW2 or any game, I just like to understand them and the wording used to describe them.
I believe you, you're kind of like how I am on the SWTOR forums. I favor GW2, but I'm still interested in SWTOR, even though I don't agree with all of BW's design decisions. The only true "fanboish" GW2 basher I can think of is Maskedweasel .
Just read that. I didn't think there was a way to be a fanboish basher for a game. As for my "bashing", quite simply I know what I like, and I know the feature list, and I note my displeasure with what I don't, and reaffirm those things I do like. I've never really considered myself a fanboy of anything, though I am looking forward to some games more than others. I don't for one second think every decision is a great one in any of the games I'm looking forward to.
Thats not the case with some proponents of this particular game. Its okay to like everything a game has to offer, but I'd rather they like it because they truly like it rather than liking it under the misapprehension that its something more than it is. On the opposite side, if you like every aspect of a game but someone else doesn't, it doesn't make them wrong because they don't like it. This entire thread was built around a purpose of proving something was there when others said it was missing, and then it turned into saying that its okay that its not there. For some people, they like it, others, not so much.
People like to get frustrated when others don't see everything as perfect as they do. Dreamchaser is one of those people, and his posts drip with condescension over arguments where there isn't going to be a winner or loser, because its a matter of opinion. I won't just go away because you don't like what I'm saying, or the perspective I've given over the same information you have. (not you in particular, just a general "you").
So now we have water that doens't feel like water. AAA developers always manage to surprise me with their absurd logic.
I'm going to ruin all your gaming experiences forever, right now.
Ready?
Nothing in games really feels like it does in real life.
Especially in MMORPGs.
Actual sword combat? Nothing at all like they show in MMOs. Running? Doesn't really work that way with armor. Everything you see in an MMO? Totally false and done for the purposes of gameplay. You play the game but... think about this.... how many times have you watched your MMORPG character use the bathroom? DOES NOT FEEL REAL.
Now you can't enjoy MMOs at all. Sorry.
(On another less spoiler-tastic note, I'd like to point out that in most MMOs you can do things like throw fireballs underwater. How does that feel more like water? GW2 has lots of watery features, like bubbles! ... and gently swaying plant life underwater. Also fish. In many ways it feels more like underwater than many other games. Or is the only way you determine whether something is water or not is the amount of resistance it gives and how well it suffocates people? Do people using scuba gear not have an underwater experience?)
I have to say I really enjoy reading meowheads posts. This one actually made me laugh. Keep shedding light on others stupidy and fragmented and broken logic, its hillariouse.
I'm not sure I would applaud that kind of logic. Meowhead makes it sound like even the slightest deviation from how things are in the real world, is a carte blanche to add anything and everything in the game. Couldn't I theoretically use the same kind og logic to explain why it would be perfectly acceptable to run with the speed of light or have space shuttles in the game?
Person 1: "So now we have movement with the speed of light in the game. That does not feel right. The developers always manage to surprise me with their absurd logic."
Person 2: "I'm going to ruin all your gaming experiences forever, right now. Ready? Your character doesn't use the bathroom. DOES NOT FEEL REAL. Now you can't enjoy MMOs at all. Sorry."
What is acceptable in a game and what is not is entirely a matter of opinion. You may not agree with Metentso about the feel of the water, but that does not mean he is wrong - or that his logic is stupid, fragmented and broken.
If that is the case then I will apologize for accusing. Just thought it funny that certain names pop up a lot in GW forums and I just got through reading some of your less than enthusiastic and more judgemental remarks in the thread about Health pools. I also think it is funny when some people use the claim they plan on playing the game so they have a valid justification to bash it to hell and make there "concerns" seem valid because they plan on giving it a try. thats a cop-out imo. It is late and as I said I just went from one topic to the next and a couple of names stood out for some reason.
The part that stood out in the other thread the most was you placen words in Anets mouth and saying it was their fault for "wording" things a certain way then Romanator0 gave you the exact quote from the team. Sorry but that was exactly what I was talking about. If I was mistaken your intentions it's your fault for "wording things wrong and looking for trouble."
I also acknowledged I was wrong about that, as well as got info from the wrong avenues and you're right I also see that sort of thing here a lot myself. I can asure you however I don't have an intention of bashing GW2 or any game, I just like to understand them and the wording used to describe them.
I believe you, you're kind of like how I am on the SWTOR forums. I favor GW2, but I'm still interested in SWTOR, even though I don't agree with all of BW's design decisions. The only true "fanboish" GW2 basher I can think of is Maskedweasel .
Just read that. I didn't think there was a way to be a fanboish basher for a game. As for my "bashing", quite simply I know what I like, and I know the feature list, and I note my displeasure with what I don't, and reaffirm those things I do like. I've never really considered myself a fanboy of anything, though I am looking forward to some games more than others. I don't for one second think every decision is a great one in any of the games I'm looking forward to.
Thats not the case with some proponents of this particular game. Its okay to like everything a game has to offer, but I'd rather they like it because they truly like it rather than liking it under the misapprehension that its something more than it is. On the opposite side, if you like every aspect of a game but someone else doesn't, it doesn't make them wrong because they don't like it. This entire thread was built around a purpose of proving something was there when others said it was missing, and then it turned into saying that its okay that its not there. For some people, they like it, others, not so much.
People like to get frustrated when others don't see everything as perfect as they do. Dreamchaser is one of those people, and his posts drip with condescension over arguments where there isn't going to be a winner or loser, because its a matter of opinion. I won't just go away because you don't like what I'm saying, or the perspective I've given over the same information you have. (not you in particular, just a general "you").
Take that for what you will.
Hmm okay, I retract my statement about you being a basher. I looked at your post history and you actually seem to be pretty balanced. I must have just read a lot of post of yours that happened to look "basherish" and came to a false conclusion. So my bad .
Oh and by "fanboish basher," I meant a fanboi of one game, basher of another. But yeah, as I said, I retract that statement as it applies to you .
And about DC...I don't know his posts all that well, but his big post in this thread seems to support your statement.
I'm not sure I would applaud that kind of logic. Meowhead makes it sound like even the slightest deviation from how things are in the real world, is a carte blanche to add anything and everything in the game. Couldn't I theoretically use the same kind og logic to explain why it would be perfectly acceptable to run with the speed of light or have space shuttles in the game?
Person 1: "So now we have movement with the speed of light in the game. That does not feel right. The developers always manage to surprise me with their absurd logic."
Person 2: "I'm going to ruin all your gaming experiences forever, right now. Ready? Your character doesn't use the bathroom. DOES NOT FEEL REAL. Now you can't enjoy MMOs at all. Sorry."
What is acceptable in a game and what is not is entirely a matter of opinion. You may not agree with Metentso about the feel of the water, but that does not mean he is wrong - or that his logic is stupid, fragmented and broken.
Did you just conflate 'moving somewhat faster than people normally do underwater' and 'underwater breathing apparatus' with 'running at the speed of light and/or space shuttles'?
I'm afraid you have no sense of scale.
Also, MMOs are CRAMMED full of things that are far more unbelievable and unreal than merely 'Hey, that person is swimming a little faster'.
Like I said. No sense of scale.
Also, you really do have movement at the speed of light with teleport gates, but I guess you might not be a fan of those either.
I don't see what this absurd logic is about movement speed underwater. The logic, if you can call it logic, is it was done for the sake of fun. What's fun about moving really slow for half the game content? If you think that's fun, you are free to go to another game.
Did you just conflate 'moving somewhat faster than people normally do underwater' and 'underwater breathing apparatus' with 'running at the speed of light and/or space shuttles'?
I'm afraid you have no sense of scale.
I compared the mysterious water that allows you to swim unhindered with space shuttles, you compared it with going to the bathroom. Some people might actually suggest that neither of us have a sense of scale, and that we are both wrong. That's the beauty of opinions.
Also, teleportation has very little to do with movement speed as you don't actually cross a physical distance. Things simply disappear and instantly re-appear in a different place when teleported.
I compared the mysterious water that allows you to swim unhindered with space shuttles, you compared it with going to the bathroom. Some people might actually suggest that neither of us have a sense of scale, and that we are both wrong. That's the beauty of opinions.
Also, teleportation has very little to do with movement speed as you don't actually cross a physical distance. Things simply disappear and instantly re-appear in a different place when teleported.
I mentioned a lack of bathroom as one of the many, many things that MMOs do to sacrifice reality on the altar of fun.
Look at combat. How realistic do you think it is for people to take an axe to the face a few times?
Look at how freaking big people's pockets are.
Look at how high people jump, and how far they can fall. This stuff is crazy. It's all for the sake of the game, and the water is the same thing. You might not LIKE it, but it's the same sort of thing, almost exactly. Space shuttles lack internal consistency with predefined lore, so it's a whole different ballpark. They would need a pretty good explanation for it.
Notice how long people can run in full plate armor, and without any sort of speed penalty compared to cloth.
Notice people do not run at the same sort of rates they do in real life. Everything is all messed up, especially the scale of transportation.
... if you're in one place, and then in another, you've crossed a physical distance.
... or are you suggesting all places are the same, in which case all swimming never moves you anywhere anyway. How zen.
What is acceptable in a game and what is not is entirely a matter of opinion. You may not agree with Metentso about the feel of the water, but that does not mean he is wrong - or that his logic is stupid, fragmented and broken.
It also doesn't mean he is right.
All it means is that he has different opinion on the matter.
As for logic it is indeed wrong. It is very wrong to bring real life to a virtual game in a fantasy setting. His immerion is not mine immersion for example. And i may find permanent running with char more immersion breaking than freedom of movement under water. How many ppl IRL you see either standing or running - never walking. How many IRL could run forever and never stop ? None.
Bringing RL limitations is stupid.
Bringing RL argument into fantasy game is the worst argument ever.
I compared the mysterious water that allows you to swim unhindered with space shuttles, you compared it with going to the bathroom. Some people might actually suggest that neither of us have a sense of scale, and that we are both wrong. That's the beauty of opinions.
Also, teleportation has very little to do with movement speed as you don't actually cross a physical distance. Things simply disappear and instantly re-appear in a different place when teleported.
I mentioned a lack of bathroom as one of the many, many things that MMOs do to sacrifice reality on the altar of fun.
Look at combat. How realistic do you think it is for people to take an axe to the face a few times?
Look at how freaking big people's pockets are.
Look at how high people jump, and how far they can fall. This stuff is crazy. It's all for the sake of the game, and the water is the same thing. You might not LIKE it, but it's the same sort of thing, almost exactly. Space shuttles lack internal consistency with predefined lore, so it's a whole different ballpark. They would need a pretty good explanation for it.
Notice how long people can run in full plate armor, and without any sort of speed penalty compared to cloth.
Notice people do not run at the same sort of rates they do in real life. Everything is all messed up, especially the scale of transportation.
... if you're in one place, and then in another, you've crossed a physical distance.
... or are you suggesting all places are the same, in which case all swimming never moves you anywhere anyway. How zen.
Its really not a realism thing.. or how something happens in real life in comparison to how you see it in game.
Its about being able to look at things that are happening and utilize them to a standard that notes some kind of acknowledgement that these things exist.
For example, inventory, you know you have pockets or places to put items because you can open them up and see them, put things in them, you know they are pockets because they function like pockets.....etc.
You know you are running instead of walking because the movements speed is quicker, when you run it acts like you are running. You know you are flying instead of running because your movement speed is different then when you were running, and it notes not moving utilizing the ground, with nothing in your way to prohibit faster movement speed, like trees, walls, etc. as it would had you been flying.
When you are underwater, (which is a liquid, as I've come to find out) you usually see a difference between walking, flying and being underwater. No difference to me, is the same as there not being any water. It could have been just a blue room that you can fly in and use a fancy weapon.
It doesn't mean that it has to be ultra realistic, what I'm saying is that without some kind of solid common identifier, underwater combat feels like a gimmick. Like they just created a ton of content in these areas, but threw in the idea that, while doing this content you are "swimming" instead of "floating magically through underground air".
Is it immersion? Commonality? Identify-ability-ness? I don't know how to explain it in a way that results in the understanding of others.
Comments
I also acknowledged I was wrong about that, as well as got info from the wrong avenues and you're right I also see that sort of thing here a lot myself. I can asure you however I don't have an intention of bashing GW2 or any game, I just like to understand them and the wording used to describe them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I believe you, you're kind of like how I am on the SWTOR forums. I favor GW2, but I'm still interested in SWTOR, even though I don't agree with all of BW's design decisions. The only true "fanboish" GW2 basher I can think of is Maskedweasel
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
DC...I'm sorry, but Meowhead was trying to help you out and I think you missed the point.
I'm not sure if you were trying for this, but I think your post came of as very arrogant, high-handed, and self-righteous. The crazy thing is, I'm actually on your side with your views of MMORPGs, but I found myself wanting to disagree with you, just because of how you wrote your post.
Nobody wants to be talked down to, and that's exactly what you're doing in your post. You're acting as if your views are 100% correct, and it's your mission to convert anyone who holds an inferior viewpoint to the light. I don't think you're really going to "convert" anyone with this approach.
If you're serious about trying to get people to see things your way, then think about this...
A lot of arguments may start because people honestly disagree about things, but many of them continue simply because we all have a primitive need to be "right." We want to "win" the argument simply so we can "win." We view conceding an argument as a "loss," and nobody wants to lose, so many arguments go on with neither side conceding anything so as to avoid losing.
So if you charge ahead like a bull in your arguments, never giving the other person any ground, they are just going to stand firmer in their viewpoints. You're actually accomplishing the opposite of what you want, you're just making people more stubborn in beliefs that you disagree with.
In my opinion, if you want to actually have people see things your way, you have to try to see things theirs as well. Give a little ground to them, and they will be more willing to give some to you.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
(It's really worth pointing out that everything i say here has that base motivation behind it. One might not realise it, but it does, and I'll use many vectors of entry for trying to get my points across. Even if it comes down to insults, sarcasm, or even reverse psychology. Sometimes I really just want to kick MMORPG players up the butt and that's what I'm doing. Guild Wars 2 is a great game for so many reasons, because it fits things that the MMORPG needs to be.
I feel that so many MMORPGs out there actually encourage people to be xenophobic, basement dwelling, traditionalist, anti-progress, small-minded, culturally stunted jerks, I think the games groom them into that mindset. It's a different approach to Farmville, but it's just as effective, and it creates players for life.
I am so sick of seeing that. You have no idea. No idea. So I'm going to do my best to knock as many people out of that cycle as I can. Call it being an arsehole if you want, call it whatever you like, people can call me the antichrist, or they can think of it as tough love. It's not really relevant. I just want people to question these MMORPGs they've devoted their lives to and the values they've been teaching them. From the little things like "It's important to have a faction to hate and racism is something you should learn." to "You can acquire real social worth from a videogame!".
I don't think these are values that we should be teaching anyone.)
DC...I'm sorry, but Meowhead was trying to help you out and I think you missed the point.
I'm not sure if you were trying for this, but I think your post came of as very arrogant, high-handed, and self-righteous. The crazy thing is, I'm actually on your side with your views of MMORPGs, but I found myself wanting to disagree with you, just because of how you wrote your post.
Nobody wants to be talked down to, and that's exactly what you're doing in your post. You're acting as if your views are 100% correct, and it's your mission to convert anyone who holds an inferior viewpoint to the light. I don't think you're really going to "convert" anyone with this approach.
If you're serious about trying to get people to see things your way, then think about this...
A lot of arguments may start because people honestly disagree about things, but many of them continue simply because we all have a primitive need to be "right." We want to "win" the argument simply so we can "win." We view conceding an argument as a "loss," and nobody wants to lose, so many arguments go on with neither side conceding anything so as to avoid losing.
So if you charge ahead like a bull in your arguments, never giving the other person any ground, they are just going to stand firmer in their viewpoints. You're actually accomplishing the opposite of what you want, you're just making people more stubborn in beliefs that you disagree with.
In my opinion, if you want to actually have people see things your way, you have to try to see things theirs as well. Give a little ground to them, and they will be more willing to give some to you.
Well said. Dream_Chaser's posts are very well thought out and articulate. You can tell he put a lot of time into them and cares a great deal about the subject matter. But I think he sometimes misses the point of a discussion forum and comes off a little too agenda based.
Discussing immersion in a thread about being underwater! HA!
I dunno, guys. I find this underwater combat totally immersive!
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
I have to agree he, seems to love frequenting the GW2 forums looking for an argument. I generally don't enjoy internet arguments. but if the person you are talking to is rational in their ideas it is nice to get a different perspective sometimes. I also don't usually call anyone out, but it was late and some names appear here too often for no other reason than to bash and it makes little sence to me. I have been to the SWTOR forum looking for new info like I was when I frequented FFXIV. I still go there looking to see if theres anything to draw my attention, but I don't have anything to add to any discussion so I just read.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
So now we have water that doens't feel like water. AAA developers always manage to surprise me with their absurd logic.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
I don't understand how you can quibble for pages over how fast your character can move in his underwear.
Man Of Constant Sorrow
I'm going to ruin all your gaming experiences forever, right now.
Ready?
Nothing in games really feels like it does in real life.
Especially in MMORPGs.
Actual sword combat? Nothing at all like they show in MMOs. Running? Doesn't really work that way with armor. Everything you see in an MMO? Totally false and done for the purposes of gameplay. You play the game but... think about this.... how many times have you watched your MMORPG character use the bathroom? DOES NOT FEEL REAL.
Now you can't enjoy MMOs at all. Sorry.
(On another less spoiler-tastic note, I'd like to point out that in most MMOs you can do things like throw fireballs underwater. How does that feel more like water? GW2 has lots of watery features, like bubbles! ... and gently swaying plant life underwater. Also fish. In many ways it feels more like underwater than many other games. Or is the only way you determine whether something is water or not is the amount of resistance it gives and how well it suffocates people? Do people using scuba gear not have an underwater experience?)
SCUBA gear and flippers has ruined the underwater experience for me in real life, and now fast movement and breathing devices has ruined the underwater experience for me in GW2! God!
GG ArenaNet....GG.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I have to say I really enjoy reading meowheads posts. This one actually made me laugh. Keep shedding light on others stupidy and fragmented and broken logic, its hillariouse.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Just read that. I didn't think there was a way to be a fanboish basher for a game. As for my "bashing", quite simply I know what I like, and I know the feature list, and I note my displeasure with what I don't, and reaffirm those things I do like. I've never really considered myself a fanboy of anything, though I am looking forward to some games more than others. I don't for one second think every decision is a great one in any of the games I'm looking forward to.
Thats not the case with some proponents of this particular game. Its okay to like everything a game has to offer, but I'd rather they like it because they truly like it rather than liking it under the misapprehension that its something more than it is. On the opposite side, if you like every aspect of a game but someone else doesn't, it doesn't make them wrong because they don't like it. This entire thread was built around a purpose of proving something was there when others said it was missing, and then it turned into saying that its okay that its not there. For some people, they like it, others, not so much.
People like to get frustrated when others don't see everything as perfect as they do. Dreamchaser is one of those people, and his posts drip with condescension over arguments where there isn't going to be a winner or loser, because its a matter of opinion. I won't just go away because you don't like what I'm saying, or the perspective I've given over the same information you have. (not you in particular, just a general "you").
Take that for what you will.
I'm not sure I would applaud that kind of logic. Meowhead makes it sound like even the slightest deviation from how things are in the real world, is a carte blanche to add anything and everything in the game. Couldn't I theoretically use the same kind og logic to explain why it would be perfectly acceptable to run with the speed of light or have space shuttles in the game?
Person 1: "So now we have movement with the speed of light in the game. That does not feel right. The developers always manage to surprise me with their absurd logic."
Person 2: "I'm going to ruin all your gaming experiences forever, right now. Ready? Your character doesn't use the bathroom. DOES NOT FEEL REAL. Now you can't enjoy MMOs at all. Sorry."
What is acceptable in a game and what is not is entirely a matter of opinion. You may not agree with Metentso about the feel of the water, but that does not mean he is wrong - or that his logic is stupid, fragmented and broken.
Asura StarGates are the equivalent of running at the speed of light.
Give the charr enough ooze to work with and they'll give you a space shuttle.
Hmm okay, I retract my statement about you being a basher. I looked at your post history and you actually seem to be pretty balanced. I must have just read a lot of post of yours that happened to look "basherish" and came to a false conclusion. So my bad
.
Oh and by "fanboish basher," I meant a fanboi of one game, basher of another. But yeah, as I said, I retract that statement as it applies to you
.
And about DC...I don't know his posts all that well, but his big post in this thread seems to support your statement.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Now I know you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
Actually, I was being facetious for the sake of being facetious.
Did you just conflate 'moving somewhat faster than people normally do underwater' and 'underwater breathing apparatus' with 'running at the speed of light and/or space shuttles'?
I'm afraid you have no sense of scale.
Also, MMOs are CRAMMED full of things that are far more unbelievable and unreal than merely 'Hey, that person is swimming a little faster'.
Like I said. No sense of scale.
Also, you really do have movement at the speed of light with teleport gates, but I guess you might not be a fan of those either.
Sorry. That was lost in translation I guess.
I don't see what this absurd logic is about movement speed underwater. The logic, if you can call it logic, is it was done for the sake of fun. What's fun about moving really slow for half the game content? If you think that's fun, you are free to go to another game.
I compared the mysterious water that allows you to swim unhindered with space shuttles, you compared it with going to the bathroom. Some people might actually suggest that neither of us have a sense of scale, and that we are both wrong. That's the beauty of opinions.
Also, teleportation has very little to do with movement speed as you don't actually cross a physical distance. Things simply disappear and instantly re-appear in a different place when teleported.
I mentioned a lack of bathroom as one of the many, many things that MMOs do to sacrifice reality on the altar of fun.
Look at combat. How realistic do you think it is for people to take an axe to the face a few times?
Look at how freaking big people's pockets are.
Look at how high people jump, and how far they can fall. This stuff is crazy. It's all for the sake of the game, and the water is the same thing. You might not LIKE it, but it's the same sort of thing, almost exactly. Space shuttles lack internal consistency with predefined lore, so it's a whole different ballpark. They would need a pretty good explanation for it.
Notice how long people can run in full plate armor, and without any sort of speed penalty compared to cloth.
Notice people do not run at the same sort of rates they do in real life. Everything is all messed up, especially the scale of transportation.
... if you're in one place, and then in another, you've crossed a physical distance.
... or are you suggesting all places are the same, in which case all swimming never moves you anywhere anyway. How zen.
It also doesn't mean he is right.
All it means is that he has different opinion on the matter.
As for logic it is indeed wrong. It is very wrong to bring real life to a virtual game in a fantasy setting. His immerion is not mine immersion for example. And i may find permanent running with char more immersion breaking than freedom of movement under water. How many ppl IRL you see either standing or running - never walking. How many IRL could run forever and never stop ? None.
Bringing RL limitations is stupid.
Bringing RL argument into fantasy game is the worst argument ever.
Its really not a realism thing.. or how something happens in real life in comparison to how you see it in game.
Its about being able to look at things that are happening and utilize them to a standard that notes some kind of acknowledgement that these things exist.
For example, inventory, you know you have pockets or places to put items because you can open them up and see them, put things in them, you know they are pockets because they function like pockets.....etc.
You know you are running instead of walking because the movements speed is quicker, when you run it acts like you are running. You know you are flying instead of running because your movement speed is different then when you were running, and it notes not moving utilizing the ground, with nothing in your way to prohibit faster movement speed, like trees, walls, etc. as it would had you been flying.
When you are underwater, (which is a liquid, as I've come to find out) you usually see a difference between walking, flying and being underwater. No difference to me, is the same as there not being any water. It could have been just a blue room that you can fly in and use a fancy weapon.
It doesn't mean that it has to be ultra realistic, what I'm saying is that without some kind of solid common identifier, underwater combat feels like a gimmick. Like they just created a ton of content in these areas, but threw in the idea that, while doing this content you are "swimming" instead of "floating magically through underground air".
Is it immersion? Commonality? Identify-ability-ness? I don't know how to explain it in a way that results in the understanding of others.
Actually 1 man can:
Haha. Just thought of this when I read your post. I do agree with you, though.