We'll get to see if this game will flop or not in Sept (that when beta is?) and I reckon the usual will happen on these forums. You'll have lots of people getting banned saying the game sucks with a load of people blindlessly trying to defend the game by shooting down valid claims. Then once the game is releaed everyone will buy it so sales will be high but after that first sub date the population will drop off like crazy and everyone wonders why they wasted £130 on crap.
People will work out that the game is just like WoW and they're bored of that formula. On the Giantbomb Podcast Jeff said he got to play it and it plays exactly like WoW and he isn't interested in that any more. I reckon that is how most people will think and get fed up of the game pretty quickly. Not only that but they cannot live upto Blizzard's quality in things like feel of the combat. Bioware have never made a good combat system, they're always the weakest things about their games and so far SWTORs looks pretty bad. People will get fed up of linear mini game space battles and watching boring cutscenes all the time. I know when I group with friends everyone just wants to skip them as they become annoying.
I reckon when this game flops it'll be the single greatest thing for this genre. Developers will realise that we are sick of WoW and want something new and that is what we'll get.
Icewhite, I couldn't care less about your crusade against your perceived derailing and trolling by others. That has nothing to do with me or my comments earlier. I did not, and still do not, appreciate you accusing me of either when it's very clear that I wasn't. It was very much uncalled for.
All right. But why are you here?
Yes, I do crusade against crusaders. It if bothers them, perhaps they should stay out of this particular forum for a game that does not interest them, and stop derailing every thread in it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by KhalathwyrSure, Masked, for those who enjoy such games. For the ever growing segement that is getting tired of the "race to max level, end-game for 2 months, move on to next game" rat race the success of this game brings...nothing?
Then one is compelled to ask...why are you here?
The game holds no interest for you. Perhaps another forum would serve you better?
I told you why, but apparently you didn't read it above.
And on that note, please direct your commentary elsewhere. It's clear all you want to do is argue and name call. That's not why I'm here. Discussion with people that I've discussed games with over the YEARS I've been on this site is why I'm here. And it is clear that is not going to happen with you so, good day.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
1.5 mil isnt to much. You gotta remember how many star wars fans will just play this and nothing else because its star wars or how many gamers who love star wars will play this and not any other MMO or ones who have never played an MMO who will play this just because its star wars.
And on that note, please direct your commentary elsewhere. It's clear all you want to do is argue and name call. That's not why I'm here. Discussion with people that I've discussed games with over the YEARS I've been on this site is why I'm here. And it is clear that is not going to happen with you so, good day.
The faux indignation is very convincing.
But you know I'm right, feel free to review the last 50 threads if there is any doubt at all in your mind that every single one has been derailed with the same argument and by the same people.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
As far as I know have only on sandbox AAA MMO been made so far, UO. UO did have an experienced team and it did really well for it's time. And the reason I don't mention Eve here is that it was released by a team that was unexperienced at the time and had a low budget.
The fact is that we have no real clue if a AAA sandbox game would work fine or not because so few have been made, and most AAA games actually flops even though they are themeparks.
I am not saying that Bioware should make a sandbox game, that would probably be a very bad idea, it is not what they are good at and devs that don't do what they are good at fails.
The market is not ready for random unnamed MMO titles at all. Look on the huge games, they were all made by experienced crews no matter what, MMOs are really hard to make.
Saying that sandboxes or themeparks are better than the other type is stupid, both have huge potential which almost all companies just mess up.
I personally believe that the next big sandbox game will be World of darkness online, it have an experienced team, a good budget and a popular IP that CCP owns.
But this whole thing have nothing to do with TOR. The Star wars IP works for both types of games and Bioware is making the right call to make the type of game they are famous for.
90% of all MMOs fail and the number gets even higher if you just count low budget games. Using that statistic to prove that the few sandbox games that have been made since 2004 failed does not prove anything at all.
Exactly. It always annoys me when "theme-park zealots" that are convinced that the sandbox sub-genre has failed, act as if there are just TONS of sandbox games out of the market that flopped.
As Loke said, the ONLY "AAA" sandbox MMORPG EVER was UO...and guess what? IT DEFINED THE MMORPG GENRE!
All other sandbox games that have come out have not been "AAA," they've all been from smaller companies. All you have to do is look at Darkfall to tell that it's not an AAA game.
I'm not against theme park games by any means, but if you're going to argue against sandbox games, please look at the facts first.
Shortened to cut down on overquoting, it's a crime! Recognize!
As far as I know have only on sandbox AAA MMO been made so far, UO. UO did have an experienced team and it did really well for it's time. And the reason I don't mention Eve here is that it was released by a team that was unexperienced at the time and had a low budget.
The fact is that we have no real clue if a AAA sandbox game would work fine or not because so few have been made, and most AAA games actually flops even though they are themeparks.
I am not saying that Bioware should make a sandbox game, that would probably be a very bad idea, it is not what they are good at and devs that don't do what they are good at fails.
The market is not ready for random unnamed MMO titles at all. Look on the huge games, they were all made by experienced crews no matter what, MMOs are really hard to make.
Saying that sandboxes or themeparks are better than the other type is stupid, both have huge potential which almost all companies just mess up.
I personally believe that the next big sandbox game will be World of darkness online, it have an experienced team, a good budget and a popular IP that CCP owns.
But this whole thing have nothing to do with TOR. The Star wars IP works for both types of games and Bioware is making the right call to make the type of game they are famous for.
90% of all MMOs fail and the number gets even higher if you just count low budget games. Using that statistic to prove that the few sandbox games that have been made since 2004 failed does not prove anything at all.
World of Darkness if it lands in the next year will be huge, any time longer than that and it will probably sink a few would be players each day until release. The industry is already starting to move away from Supernatural and Vampire, Werewolf themed IP's. Trust me, I have been trying to put my foot in that door for 2 years, if it's supernatural, a lot of companies won't even touch you with a ten foot pole.
If Bioware made a sandbox title I'm not sure they would do very well at it, their kind of games are more like Extended Cinema flavored games, leaving the sandbox titles to companies like Bethesda where it is their bread and butter would be best.
A lot of players and arguments I am seeing here in this thread seem to be disgruntled SWG type fans, bitter about their game closing and needing a focus for their angst. Lucas Arts moved from SOE, it was a buisiness decision, get over it. I also played SWG from launch until about a year after the NGE, it effected me as well. Get over it, move on and stop living in the past.
The quote was talking about World of Darkness... I couldn't resist.
How is it that this thread has degenerated into another "sandbox VS themepark" debate??
Yeah, I guess it sort of happens when you have a lot of MMO homeless people visiting a forum who don't really appreciate upcoming MMO's being of a type they can't enjoy. I guess being dissatisfied and frustrated with no MMO's around to really enjoy can make some MMO gamers turn into quite the MMO grinches
Anyway, back on topic. I'm sure that the figures so far are good, but I have to wonder how they'll manage to achieve, and more importantly, maintain 1-2 million players past the first year, especially considering the past MMO history and the strong competition lining up.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
No, I think Venekor has a point. We've tried it for 7, almost 8 years as you describe and I'd like you to please point out to me the AAA MMORPG that is sandbox that has been made as a counter choice to all the AAA themeparks that have rolled out and under performed since 2004.
I'm not campaigning for TOR to "flop". I honestly don't give the game that much of my time for thought. That said, it is very easy to see that if it does do very well the developers in this industry will near 96% total try to follow suit. Which means 7 more years of a certain segement of this genre's population not getting a game that they can enjoy.
And the F'd up thing about it is that segement, by and large, are the folks that got this genre off the ground as customers while all the rest were playing RTS and FPS games.
Ideally I'd like to see TOR do ok and 3 or 4 AAA sandbox / SANDpark (emphasis on sand) games arise. That way themepark folks have TOR plus the whole slew of other AAA themeparks made over the last 7 years and sandbox fans would now have a few choice for AAA calibre sandboxes.
Theres reasons we don't see sandbox games, it has nothing to do with developers not creating AAA games. Its not like there aren't sandbox games out there either.
SWTOR is set for a particular demographic.... a demographic that has already been proven to be much larger than the entire sandbox fanbase. These are BioWare customers. BioWare games have sold multiple millions of their titles across all platforms. What they did is smart business sense.
Other developers have tried sandbox titles, but players never last. They blame this on these low budget, inexperienced developers, but the truth is, the market just really isn't there for random, unnamed sandbox titles. An elder scrolls title, or a fallout title that allows for sandbox gameplay would likely pull in the Bethesda crowd which could be huge, but apart from that, no company will be willing to put in any funds on anything if the market just isn't there.
BioWares success will only benefit the genre. How many developers have tried to take BioWares level of storytelling and gameplay? Nobody does it like BioWare, and theres no reason to believe they'd try to with the launch of SWTOR. What it will show them is that putting hard work and polish is what needs to happen if they want to stay in the competitive subscription market, and thats the most important thing.
As far as I know have only on sandbox AAA MMO been made so far, UO. UO did have an experienced team and it did really well for it's time. And the reason I don't mention Eve here is that it was released by a team that was unexperienced at the time and had a low budget.
The fact is that we have no real clue if a AAA sandbox game would work fine or not because so few have been made, and most AAA games actually flops even though they are themeparks.
I am not saying that Bioware should make a sandbox game, that would probably be a very bad idea, it is not what they are good at and devs that don't do what they are good at fails.
The market is not ready for random unnamed MMO titles at all. Look on the huge games, they were all made by experienced crews no matter what, MMOs are really hard to make.
Saying that sandboxes or themeparks are better than the other type is stupid, both have huge potential which almost all companies just mess up.
I personally believe that the next big sandbox game will be World of darkness online, it have an experienced team, a good budget and a popular IP that CCP owns.
But this whole thing have nothing to do with TOR. The Star wars IP works for both types of games and Bioware is making the right call to make the type of game they are famous for.
90% of all MMOs fail and the number gets even higher if you just count low budget games. Using that statistic to prove that the few sandbox games that have been made since 2004 failed does not prove anything at all.
Good points Loke. Though I might disagree with you on World of Darkness because of CCP's insistence on a 3 tiered Item Mall. I'd love it if you're right, but we'll have to see.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
"anything north of 1m, as we approach 1.5m or 2m, starts to look like a great investment"
Considering that WoW barely has that much in the US & EU combined, and those are the only places SWTOR is launching initially, that is really really rough. They have to basically get every single WoW player to play SWTOR for it to be a great investment... Makes me start thinking the $150 million estimate is right.
How is it that this thread has degenerated into another "sandbox VS themepark" debate??
Yeah, I guess it sort of happens when you have a lot of MMO homeless people visiting a forum who don't really appreciate upcoming MMO's being of a type they can't enjoy. I guess being dissatisfied and frustrated with no MMO's around to really enjoy can make some MMO gamers turn into quite the MMO grinches
Anyway, back on topic. I'm sure that the figures so far are good, but I have to wonder how they'll manage to achieve, and more importantly, maintain 1-2 million players past the first year, especially considering the past MMO history and the strong competition lining up.
I just don't see that happening myself. I can see it maintaining anywhere from 750K right up to the 1mil mark but I just don't see it on a long term consecutive basis holding a number over 1mil. If it turns out it does, good for it. I just believe that outside of story it's the same themepark MMO experience that players have been getting all along and of late rarely do those games hold high sub numbers. Rift has been the best example of late and I'd doubt it is over 1 mil (or there would have been announcements galore).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
"anything north of 1m, as we approach 1.5m or 2m, starts to look like a great investment"
Considering that WoW barely has that much in the US & EU combined, and those are the only places SWTOR is launching initially, that is really really rough. They have to basically get every single WoW player to play SWTOR for it to be a great investment... Makes me start thinking the $150 million estimate is right.
"anything north of 1m, as we approach 1.5m or 2m, starts to look like a great investment"
Considering that WoW barely has that much in the US & EU combined, and those are the only places SWTOR is launching initially, that is really really rough. They have to basically get every single WoW player to play SWTOR for it to be a great investment... Makes me start thinking the $150 million estimate is right.
WoW has about 4.5 million subs in the west.
They sure do, buddy.
They sure do.
Be prepared for this game to be pronounced dead within a month with the handy ad numerum "doesn't have 4.5 million subs".
That's all right, GW2 will come along soon after and chip away another chunk.
There is no "wow killer", only attrition.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
How is it that this thread has degenerated into another "sandbox VS themepark" debate??
Yeah, I guess it sort of happens when you have a lot of MMO homeless people visiting a forum who don't really appreciate upcoming MMO's being of a type they can't enjoy. I guess being dissatisfied and frustrated with no MMO's around to really enjoy can make some MMO gamers turn into quite the MMO grinches
Anyway, back on topic. I'm sure that the figures so far are good, but I have to wonder how they'll manage to achieve, and more importantly, maintain 1-2 million players past the first year, especially considering the past MMO history and the strong competition lining up.
Maybe they need to actually TRY these games before they write them off as something they can't enjoy???
It's like hating a food you've never tasted.
And by the way....I AM one of those "MMO homeless", and have been one of the most vocal ones on this site. However even I am not silly enough to write off games I have never tried. And I CERTAINLY don't go into the forum of a game I have no intention of playing and make post after post about how it's going to "fail", or "flop", or "suck".
I have better things to do with my time.
Kinda sad that others don't.
In response to your on-topic portion: I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at LEAST 2 million KOTOR / Bioware Star Wars fans to latch onto this game long-term.
As far as "competition", there is nothing to directly compete with SWTOR. It would be like saying Coke "competes" with Budweiser.
As far as I know have only on sandbox AAA MMO been made so far, UO. UO did have an experienced team and it did really well for it's time. And the reason I don't mention Eve here is that it was released by a team that was unexperienced at the time and had a low budget.
The fact is that we have no real clue if a AAA sandbox game would work fine or not because so few have been made, and most AAA games actually flops even though they are themeparks.
I am not saying that Bioware should make a sandbox game, that would probably be a very bad idea, it is not what they are good at and devs that don't do what they are good at fails.
The market is not ready for random unnamed MMO titles at all. Look on the huge games, they were all made by experienced crews no matter what, MMOs are really hard to make.
Saying that sandboxes or themeparks are better than the other type is stupid, both have huge potential which almost all companies just mess up.
I personally believe that the next big sandbox game will be World of darkness online, it have an experienced team, a good budget and a popular IP that CCP owns.
But this whole thing have nothing to do with TOR. The Star wars IP works for both types of games and Bioware is making the right call to make the type of game they are famous for.
90% of all MMOs fail and the number gets even higher if you just count low budget games. Using that statistic to prove that the few sandbox games that have been made since 2004 failed does not prove anything at all.
Exactly. It always annoys me when "theme-park zealots" that are convinced that the sandbox sub-genre has failed, act as if there are just TONS of sandbox games out of the market that flopped.
As Loke said, the ONLY "AAA" sandbox MMORPG EVER was UO...and guess what? IT DEFINED THE MMORPG GENRE!
All other sandbox games that have come out have not been "AAA," they've all been from smaller companies. All you have to do is look at Darkfall to tell that it's not an AAA game.
I'm not against theme park games by any means, but if you're going to argue against sandbox games, please look at the facts first.
This can't be stated enough.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I just don't see that happening myself. I can see it maintaining anywhere from 750K right up to the 1mil mark but I just don't see it on a long term consecutive basis holding a number over 1mil. If it turns out it does, good for it. I just believe that outside of story it's the same themepark MMO experience that players have been getting all along and of late rarely do those games hold high sub numbers. Rift has been the best example of late and I'd doubt it is over 1 mil (or there would have been announcements galore).
Well, it's only possible if they can pull the same trick that Blizzard could with WoW.
Because let's look at it, the same arguments that people use against longevity when it comes to themepark MMO's also apply to WoW, yet it managed to keep people playing it for years and even growing over the years. According to those arguments people are using against themepark MMO's this shouldn't have been possible since as good as everything you could do in a themepark MMO you'd already have done within half a year.
So, there must be other factors in play that determine whether people keep playing themepark MMO's like WoW past the 0.5-1 year mark, personally I think that community and family&friends play a large role, but there could be other reasons as well. If BW can connect to those same motives, then they might achieve a sortlike consistent success as WoW did. It'll be interesting to see how things will turn out.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
How is it that this thread has degenerated into another "sandbox VS themepark" debate??
Yeah, I guess it sort of happens when you have a lot of MMO homeless people visiting a forum who don't really appreciate upcoming MMO's being of a type they can't enjoy. I guess being dissatisfied and frustrated with no MMO's around to really enjoy can make some MMO gamers turn into quite the MMO grinches
Anyway, back on topic. I'm sure that the figures so far are good, but I have to wonder how they'll manage to achieve, and more importantly, maintain 1-2 million players past the first year, especially considering the past MMO history and the strong competition lining up.
Maybe they need to actually TRY these games before they write them off as something they can't enjoy???
It's like hating a food you've never tasted.
And by the way....I AM one of those "MMO homeless", and have been one of the most vocal ones on this site. However even I am not silly enough to write off games I have never tried. And I CERTAINLY don't go into the forum of a game I have no intention of playing and make post after post about how it's going to "fail", or "flop", or "suck".
I have better things to do with my time.
Kinda sad that others don't.
In response to your on-topic portion: I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at LEAST 2 million KOTOR / Bioware Star Wars fans to latch onto this game long-term.
As far as "competition", there is nothing to directly compete with SWTOR. It would be like saying Coke "competes" with Budweiser.
One should also not be silly enough to think that everyone else has only your own experiences, either.
(if that makes no sense to you Whar PM me.)
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
As far as I know have only on sandbox AAA MMO been made so far, UO. UO did have an experienced team and it did really well for it's time. And the reason I don't mention Eve here is that it was released by a team that was unexperienced at the time and had a low budget.
The fact is that we have no real clue if a AAA sandbox game would work fine or not because so few have been made, and most AAA games actually flops even though they are themeparks.
I am not saying that Bioware should make a sandbox game, that would probably be a very bad idea, it is not what they are good at and devs that don't do what they are good at fails.
The market is not ready for random unnamed MMO titles at all. Look on the huge games, they were all made by experienced crews no matter what, MMOs are really hard to make.
Saying that sandboxes or themeparks are better than the other type is stupid, both have huge potential which almost all companies just mess up.
I personally believe that the next big sandbox game will be World of darkness online, it have an experienced team, a good budget and a popular IP that CCP owns.
But this whole thing have nothing to do with TOR. The Star wars IP works for both types of games and Bioware is making the right call to make the type of game they are famous for.
90% of all MMOs fail and the number gets even higher if you just count low budget games. Using that statistic to prove that the few sandbox games that have been made since 2004 failed does not prove anything at all.
Exactly. It always annoys me when "theme-park zealots" that are convinced that the sandbox sub-genre has failed, act as if there are just TONS of sandbox games out of the market that flopped.
As Loke said, the ONLY "AAA" sandbox MMORPG EVER was UO...and guess what? IT DEFINED THE MMORPG GENRE!
All other sandbox games that have come out have not been "AAA," they've all been from smaller companies. All you have to do is look at Darkfall to tell that it's not an AAA game.
I'm not against theme park games by any means, but if you're going to argue against sandbox games, please look at the facts first.
I never said that sandbox games have failed in any sense, but we have seen that they just aren't as widely popular -- simply because full "sandbox" titles aren't as popular.
Hence, why I pointed out an Elder Scrolls MMO or a Fallout MMO geared towards sandbox style gameplay may do well. The sandbox style of gameplay is really a niche, and honestly, the sandbox games out there right now aren't unplayable -- they just aren't widely popular because they aren't that much fun in the long term.
Even on its best days SWG (which was also a triple A title, or did we forget?) which also had a strong IP didn't come anywhere near their intended target, and was obviously losing subscribers at such a rate that it took at least 2 MAJOR gameplay changes before they got the message just to let it go.
SWG was one of the games I spent the most time in too, and my server was very busy, but apparently just what I was seeing wasn't enough.
Lets not pretend that sandbox games don't exist in any playable capacity out there. There are plenty of sandbox titles to choose from, but hardly anyone is playing them. A triple A title from a big developer would likely do well... if they are gearing towards a demographic thats already proven like the Elder Scrolls Series. Otherwise, its doubtful we'll see any kind of foothold in the sandbox market anytime soon.
As far as "competition", there is nothing to directly compete with SWTOR. It would be like saying Coke "competes" with Budweiser.
Oh, the pool's pretty static at this point. WoW grabbed a lot of FPS players and Grandmas and Uncle Joes and introduced them to MMOs--but it will probably be another full generation before some game creates that many new players all at once again.
So with a static pool to draw from, all MMOs are competing to some degree or another.
Alternate genres is a good way to go to "make your mark", but so is unique mechanics (=sandboxes). Given enough actual competition, the playing field will only expand.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Putting your hope in $OE to revive the genre is like hoping that the titanic doesnt sink after you know it has..
Its hard to characterize which is worse EA the greed first publisher thats a relative newcomer to mmo or SOE the well known traditional greed first failsauce that just keeps failing..
Im going to say SOE needs to just get out of the business if they cant bring anything better than average this time around..
I just don't see that happening myself. I can see it maintaining anywhere from 750K right up to the 1mil mark but I just don't see it on a long term consecutive basis holding a number over 1mil. If it turns out it does, good for it. I just believe that outside of story it's the same themepark MMO experience that players have been getting all along and of late rarely do those games hold high sub numbers. Rift has been the best example of late and I'd doubt it is over 1 mil (or there would have been announcements galore).
Well, it's only possible if they can pull the same trick that Blizzard could with WoW.
Because let's look at it, the same arguments that people use against longevity when it comes to themepark MMO's also apply to WoW, yet it managed to keep people playing it for years and even growing over the years. According to those arguments people are using against themepark MMO's this shouldn't have been possible since as good as everything you could do in a themepark MMO you'd already have done within half a year.
So, there must be other factors in play that determine whether people keep playing themepark MMO's like WoW past the 0.5-1 year mark, personally I think that community and family&friends play a large role, but there could be other reasons as well. If BW can connect to those same motives, then they might achieve a sortlike consistent success as WoW did. It'll be interesting to see how things will turn out.
True. And in my estimation WOW's longevity had in large part to do with (in no particular order):
1) it's established IP
2) The marketing campaign (visibility and creativity)
3) It's many ties into pop culture
For me a valid question is how many of the targetted TOR audience are "super SW fans" that would tolerate #'s 2 and 3. If it's not a big issue, then alls well. If it is, then Bioware has to bank on those items drawing in others who don't care about the SW skin but just want a story laden themepark game. To keep those folks, though, I'd think making the game link into pop culture would be a key point.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
Guild Wars 2 is trying some different things and Blizzard is working on TItan...
As far as I know have only on sandbox AAA MMO been made so far, UO. UO did have an experienced team and it did really well for it's time. And the reason I don't mention Eve here is that it was released by a team that was unexperienced at the time and had a low budget.
The fact is that we have no real clue if a AAA sandbox game would work fine or not because so few have been made, and most AAA games actually flops even though they are themeparks.
I am not saying that Bioware should make a sandbox game, that would probably be a very bad idea, it is not what they are good at and devs that don't do what they are good at fails.
The market is not ready for random unnamed MMO titles at all. Look on the huge games, they were all made by experienced crews no matter what, MMOs are really hard to make.
Saying that sandboxes or themeparks are better than the other type is stupid, both have huge potential which almost all companies just mess up.
I personally believe that the next big sandbox game will be World of darkness online, it have an experienced team, a good budget and a popular IP that CCP owns.
But this whole thing have nothing to do with TOR. The Star wars IP works for both types of games and Bioware is making the right call to make the type of game they are famous for.
90% of all MMOs fail and the number gets even higher if you just count low budget games. Using that statistic to prove that the few sandbox games that have been made since 2004 failed does not prove anything at all.
Exactly. It always annoys me when "theme-park zealots" that are convinced that the sandbox sub-genre has failed, act as if there are just TONS of sandbox games out of the market that flopped.
As Loke said, the ONLY "AAA" sandbox MMORPG EVER was UO...and guess what? IT DEFINED THE MMORPG GENRE!
All other sandbox games that have come out have not been "AAA," they've all been from smaller companies. All you have to do is look at Darkfall to tell that it's not an AAA game.
I'm not against theme park games by any means, but if you're going to argue against sandbox games, please look at the facts first.
I never said that sandbox games have failed in any sense, but we have seen that they just aren't as widely popular -- simply because full "sandbox" titles aren't as popular.
Hence, why I pointed out an Elder Scrolls MMO or a Fallout MMO geared towards sandbox style gameplay may do well. The sandbox style of gameplay is really a niche, and honestly, the sandbox games out there right now aren't unplayable -- they just aren't widely popular because they aren't that much fun in the long term.
Even on its best days SWG (which was also a triple A title, or did we forget?) which also had a strong IP didn't come anywhere near their intended target, and was obviously losing subscribers at such a rate that it took at least 2 MAJOR gameplay changes before they got the message just to let it go.
SWG was one of the games I spent the most time in too, and my server was very busy, but apparently just what I was seeing wasn't enough.
Lets not pretend that sandbox games don't exist in any playable capacity out there. There are plenty of sandbox titles to choose from, but hardly anyone is playing them. A triple A title from a big developer would likely do well... if they are gearing towards a demographic thats already proven like the Elder Scrolls Series. Otherwise, its doubtful we'll see any kind of foothold in the sandbox market anytime soon.
Comments
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
hehe....hehe....oh, wow....thanks.....I needed that....that was the most hilarious disgorgement of utter nonsense that I have read in a long time.
Thanks, man....I really needed a good laugh
All right. But why are you here?
Yes, I do crusade against crusaders. It if bothers them, perhaps they should stay out of this particular forum for a game that does not interest them, and stop derailing every thread in it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I told you why, but apparently you didn't read it above.
And on that note, please direct your commentary elsewhere. It's clear all you want to do is argue and name call. That's not why I'm here. Discussion with people that I've discussed games with over the YEARS I've been on this site is why I'm here. And it is clear that is not going to happen with you so, good day.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
i am glad iam a fan of both sandbox and themepark mmos
and a fan of bethesda and bioware. while alot of you whine and complain i look forward to swtor and skyrim
i can not wait woot almost here
Games I will be playing are: TES V, SWTOR, ME 3, TSW
1.5 mil isnt to much. You gotta remember how many star wars fans will just play this and nothing else because its star wars or how many gamers who love star wars will play this and not any other MMO or ones who have never played an MMO who will play this just because its star wars.
Tis the nature of the universe Whar, lol!
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
The faux indignation is very convincing.
But you know I'm right, feel free to review the last 50 threads if there is any doubt at all in your mind that every single one has been derailed with the same argument and by the same people.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Exactly. It always annoys me when "theme-park zealots" that are convinced that the sandbox sub-genre has failed, act as if there are just TONS of sandbox games out of the market that flopped.
As Loke said, the ONLY "AAA" sandbox MMORPG EVER was UO...and guess what? IT DEFINED THE MMORPG GENRE!
All other sandbox games that have come out have not been "AAA," they've all been from smaller companies. All you have to do is look at Darkfall to tell that it's not an AAA game.
I'm not against theme park games by any means, but if you're going to argue against sandbox games, please look at the facts first.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
World of Darkness if it lands in the next year will be huge, any time longer than that and it will probably sink a few would be players each day until release. The industry is already starting to move away from Supernatural and Vampire, Werewolf themed IP's. Trust me, I have been trying to put my foot in that door for 2 years, if it's supernatural, a lot of companies won't even touch you with a ten foot pole.
If Bioware made a sandbox title I'm not sure they would do very well at it, their kind of games are more like Extended Cinema flavored games, leaving the sandbox titles to companies like Bethesda where it is their bread and butter would be best.
A lot of players and arguments I am seeing here in this thread seem to be disgruntled SWG type fans, bitter about their game closing and needing a focus for their angst. Lucas Arts moved from SOE, it was a buisiness decision, get over it. I also played SWG from launch until about a year after the NGE, it effected me as well. Get over it, move on and stop living in the past.
The quote was talking about World of Darkness... I couldn't resist.
Yeah, I guess it sort of happens when you have a lot of MMO homeless people visiting a forum who don't really appreciate upcoming MMO's being of a type they can't enjoy. I guess being dissatisfied and frustrated with no MMO's around to really enjoy can make some MMO gamers turn into quite the MMO grinches
Anyway, back on topic. I'm sure that the figures so far are good, but I have to wonder how they'll manage to achieve, and more importantly, maintain 1-2 million players past the first year, especially considering the past MMO history and the strong competition lining up.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Good points Loke. Though I might disagree with you on World of Darkness because of CCP's insistence on a 3 tiered Item Mall. I'd love it if you're right, but we'll have to see.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
They sure do, buddy.
They sure do.
I just don't see that happening myself. I can see it maintaining anywhere from 750K right up to the 1mil mark but I just don't see it on a long term consecutive basis holding a number over 1mil. If it turns out it does, good for it. I just believe that outside of story it's the same themepark MMO experience that players have been getting all along and of late rarely do those games hold high sub numbers. Rift has been the best example of late and I'd doubt it is over 1 mil (or there would have been announcements galore).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Alrighty...
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/WoW.png
Be prepared for this game to be pronounced dead within a month with the handy ad numerum "doesn't have 4.5 million subs".
That's all right, GW2 will come along soon after and chip away another chunk.
There is no "wow killer", only attrition.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Maybe they need to actually TRY these games before they write them off as something they can't enjoy???
It's like hating a food you've never tasted.
And by the way....I AM one of those "MMO homeless", and have been one of the most vocal ones on this site. However even I am not silly enough to write off games I have never tried. And I CERTAINLY don't go into the forum of a game I have no intention of playing and make post after post about how it's going to "fail", or "flop", or "suck".
I have better things to do with my time.
Kinda sad that others don't.
In response to your on-topic portion: I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at LEAST 2 million KOTOR / Bioware Star Wars fans to latch onto this game long-term.
As far as "competition", there is nothing to directly compete with SWTOR. It would be like saying Coke "competes" with Budweiser.
This can't be stated enough.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Well, it's only possible if they can pull the same trick that Blizzard could with WoW.
Because let's look at it, the same arguments that people use against longevity when it comes to themepark MMO's also apply to WoW, yet it managed to keep people playing it for years and even growing over the years. According to those arguments people are using against themepark MMO's this shouldn't have been possible since as good as everything you could do in a themepark MMO you'd already have done within half a year.
So, there must be other factors in play that determine whether people keep playing themepark MMO's like WoW past the 0.5-1 year mark, personally I think that community and family&friends play a large role, but there could be other reasons as well. If BW can connect to those same motives, then they might achieve a sortlike consistent success as WoW did. It'll be interesting to see how things will turn out.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
One should also not be silly enough to think that everyone else has only your own experiences, either.
(if that makes no sense to you Whar PM me.)
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I never said that sandbox games have failed in any sense, but we have seen that they just aren't as widely popular -- simply because full "sandbox" titles aren't as popular.
Hence, why I pointed out an Elder Scrolls MMO or a Fallout MMO geared towards sandbox style gameplay may do well. The sandbox style of gameplay is really a niche, and honestly, the sandbox games out there right now aren't unplayable -- they just aren't widely popular because they aren't that much fun in the long term.
Even on its best days SWG (which was also a triple A title, or did we forget?) which also had a strong IP didn't come anywhere near their intended target, and was obviously losing subscribers at such a rate that it took at least 2 MAJOR gameplay changes before they got the message just to let it go.
SWG was one of the games I spent the most time in too, and my server was very busy, but apparently just what I was seeing wasn't enough.
Lets not pretend that sandbox games don't exist in any playable capacity out there. There are plenty of sandbox titles to choose from, but hardly anyone is playing them. A triple A title from a big developer would likely do well... if they are gearing towards a demographic thats already proven like the Elder Scrolls Series. Otherwise, its doubtful we'll see any kind of foothold in the sandbox market anytime soon.
Oh, the pool's pretty static at this point. WoW grabbed a lot of FPS players and Grandmas and Uncle Joes and introduced them to MMOs--but it will probably be another full generation before some game creates that many new players all at once again.
So with a static pool to draw from, all MMOs are competing to some degree or another.
Alternate genres is a good way to go to "make your mark", but so is unique mechanics (=sandboxes). Given enough actual competition, the playing field will only expand.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Putting your hope in $OE to revive the genre is like hoping that the titanic doesnt sink after you know it has..
Its hard to characterize which is worse EA the greed first publisher thats a relative newcomer to mmo or SOE the well known traditional greed first failsauce that just keeps failing..
Im going to say SOE needs to just get out of the business if they cant bring anything better than average this time around..
Playing GW2..
True. And in my estimation WOW's longevity had in large part to do with (in no particular order):
1) it's established IP
2) The marketing campaign (visibility and creativity)
3) It's many ties into pop culture
For me a valid question is how many of the targetted TOR audience are "super SW fans" that would tolerate #'s 2 and 3. If it's not a big issue, then alls well. If it is, then Bioware has to bank on those items drawing in others who don't care about the SW skin but just want a story laden themepark game. To keep those folks, though, I'd think making the game link into pop culture would be a key point.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Guild Wars 2 is trying some different things and Blizzard is working on TItan...
Name one modern AAA fantasy sandbox MMORPG
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Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?