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SWTOR you break my heart :(
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Power to the Sheeple
http://www.emarketer.com/Reports/All/Emarketer_2000408.aspx That one is pretty typical of most surveys and studies about GLBT business and internet presence.
What? LOL Are you really asking me to explain why a gay relationship is not the same as bestiality? Are you really? Is this a prank? I'm sorry, I can't argue with you about your religious beliefs. If you can't analyze and figure out that two consenting healthy people in a relationship is not the same as a human abusing an animal then I don't have much to talk with you about.
So it's discrimination against schools to force schools to be integrated? Really? The reason why they had to force integration was due to the schools not allowing blacks to attend. The reason companies were forced to adopt "equal opportunity hiring" was because they weren't hiring black employees. It's funny how you turn it around and say "oh no it's the school or company that is being discriminated against."
The same view that forcing integration is discrimination is not new. The same thing was said in the 1970s when people began complaining that there weren't really any black characters, and certainly no positve ones, on tv. Things changed because people got on the issue. Forcing people to stop discriminating against a people that they don't like for religious or cultural reasons is not discrimination LOL.
Originally posted by Normike:
"-In business gay people make up same percentage as they do in the population, around 10%. Polls have shown that gay people actually have an even larger usage than that when it comes to online technology and applications. That's not "very rare."
-People who think that gay relationships are the same as being attracted to a box or an animal are comparable to people who think blacks or asians are animals...
-The vast majority of games include heterosexual sexuality (not sex) and ignore homosexuality, even though there almost as many gay gamers as there are black gamers. Yet many games include black characters. The reason gay characters are often not written into games is due to writers and designers not wanting to deal with the issue. That's discriminatin, whether indirect or direct. It's still discrimination."
Some very good points, which I don't argue with. I do have a problem with your numbers for the percentage of gays in the general population as this is regularly reported wrong.
This figure comes from the work of Alfred Kinsey, and while most researchers in this field consider his work very important for bringing up such topics, most now dispute that his subjects represented the U.S. population (he used far too many college students and prison inmates while almost completely ignoring older people, poor people, and people in rural locations). And even then, Kinsey concluded that only about 4% of men and 2% of woman identified themselves as EXCLUSIVELY homosexual, while the 10% was a number based on those who had admitted ever having a same sex attraction whether acted on or not.
The more recent and must better represented 1994 Edward Laumann study puts those identifying themselves as homosexual at 2.8% of U.S. men and 1.4% of U.S. woman, roughly 6 million people. If you only count those reporting having SOME homosexual activity in their lifetimes it's 9.1% of U.S. men and 4.3% of U.S. women, or about 20 million people in the U.S.
This should in NO way detract from the argument. My point is to shore it up with correct numbers, not attempt to tear it down. Discrimination against 1 is wrong, against 6,000,000 to 20,000,000 is a little harder to justify.
I agree. How ever, if you are going to offer sexual relationships with NPCs, you damn sure not put a limitation on it. That is the hypocritical part. Either have it open for all, or not at all. Simple as that.
Power to the Sheeple
We don't know that's the reason. That would be making an assumption...
Lucas Arts has a policy that gay characters exist in Star Wars. George Lucas donated $50,000 to the pro gay marriage petition in California. Lucas Arts had no issue with a lesbian romance in KOTOR 1.
Until we hear from Bioware we don't know what the reason why is. They have said they will give a resposne, which is what most people are waiting for. Then I will know whether to boycott Bioware or LucasArts. Cheers!
Oh good lord, how many times does this need to be posted. LA has already approved gays in the SW universe with
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Goran_Beviin
"Beviin was known as something of a traditionalist, and used old-fashioned equipment, including highly illegalcrushgaunts,[1] and beskar armor that was colored blue.[4] Beviin was homosexual, and settled down with his partner, Medrit Vasur, some time before 24 ABY.[1] The couple went on to adopt a daughter, Dinua Jeban. Beviin was a family man and was welcoming of guests on his farm.[2] Boba Fett thought of Beviin as all heart and courage, and not afraid of the pain of love.[3] He was the closest the anti-social Fett had to a friend.[2] Fett thought that Beviin would make a good Mandalore, but Beviin did not want to lead, and would rather stay on his farm.[5]Beviin held a deep hatred for the Yuuzhan Vong, and advocated killing every one. Beviin also held a dislike for the Jedi, and described Kubariet as "the only Jedi I've ever trusted."[3]"
Not saying you are wrong. my main point is that people need to stop blaming Bioware as final decision is in hand of LA.
You act as if allowing homosexual relationships is as easy as just flicking a switch when I really don't think this is the case. It's highly likely that a lot of the romance dialog/cutscenes are gender specific. This means that BW would have to make specific homosexual romance dialog for each and every class. This is a lot of work.
In addition, they would have to make sure that every class had at least one female and male companion available to them that is bisexual or gay. And personally, I hate the solution of making EVERY companion bisexual or gay like is was in DA2. It just makes the game feel cheesy and unrealistic. It takes away from the character building BW tries to do because you know that making all companions bisexual is basically just a contrivance.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Didn't you post this earlier? one character out of hundereds of prominent characters in SW universe? and if you read my posts i never said anything about approving or disapproving. Ofcourse gays exist in SW universe but that doesn't mean that LA would allow Bioware to put them in fore front as main and prominent characters.
It is their IP their story they can twist, it change it as they like. Now if Luke was gay one would say 'hey the main character in SW was gay the most crucial character, so why not add it in videogames'. How many even heard of Beviin? such an obsecure and un important character. The fact is that LA never intended to bring same sex relationships and gay characters in focus. They exist yes but LA is not acknowledging them something to focus on in SWTOR.
You cannot compare race, the handicapped nor women in this. Those three examples are natural...gay is not natural. Men and women were designed to be with the opposite sex. And if you call me homophobe, so be it. I will accept that...
Humans aren't the only animals that have and practice homosexuality, so please explain how it isn't natural.
Men and women weren't designed, we evolved and will one day be gone just like everything else. Did gay kill the dinosaurs?
If my legs are crushed in an industrial press at work and must be amputated in a hospital is that natural or am I not really handicapped?
I won't call you a homophobe although you seem far too eager to self-identify with that. I will suggest you may be ignorant and fearful, but both of those can be easily overcome. Once you know the actual truth about people and lose the fear, life around other people different than you becomes so much easier.
Your argument is that this is a Lucas Arts call, but we have no evidence to suggest that Lucas Arts made that call, in fact we have evidence to the contrary that they would have a problem with gays in the SW universe. This game isn't about playing Luke or Obi Wan or Vader, it is about playing "a" character in the SW universe not about "the" characters.
I'll bet if they only made one class per side have the option of a gay relationship most people would be ok with that. There would be grumbling, but I doubt you'd see the anger that you are seeing now.
Just to add to this, here is an article about scientists that are able to manipulate the sexual orientation of fruit flies by playing with their genes and their brains:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316316,00.html
Sure makes it seem like homosexuality has some kind of natural physical component.
Personally, I believe that people can be born gay or straight and can also "learn" to be gay or straight through socialization. Don't believe me? Just look at the culture of ancient Greece. Many men (especially soldiers) were encouraged to engage in gay relationships and they did so. You can also look at girls in the modern era that experiment with homosexuality to gain attention.
Basically, humans are complicated. I don't think it's as simple as "you're born gay" or "you learn gay." It can probably be both.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Disagree with those numbers. Just because there's a huge amount of prejudice and stigma towards gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. As a result many are in the closest just because it's easier. They don't have to deal with losing a job, losing friends, losing their family members due to prejudice. All you have to do is look at the news of all these "straight" married men caught cheating with another man.
It's the same reason that many biracial people in the US used to try to pass as white, and often simply told themselves they were white. Because of the stigma and prejudice. The same is true for being gay. It's a trait that some people can hide, there is no heredity to trace either as with race. The most popular recent example is married republican state representative Phil Hinkle of Indiana that was caught soliciting sex from an 18 year old male for $80. His current statement is "I'm not gay. I don't know what I was thinking."
These people are not going to put a tick next to gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered on a survey no matter how anonymous it is. The do not identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered even though they beyond a doubt they are. So in the end you have a poll that is asking people to voluntarily anonymously tell what their sexuality is. The pol will always be wrong. Now when we get quick and easy walk-through brain scanning then you'll get more honsesty about the percentage of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people in the population. And that time is not very far off at all.
Maybe I'm just way off here... though this is how I see it. Its a RPG. Each character has his own personality. They are not dictating your own character, just the companions. Now to think ANYONE would find love with the very few companions you have, is just rare. Even more so probly if you swing that way. If the # of companions was massive, I would be like wth! Though the pool of NPC companions is not massive. So none of your companions are into you. Ok thats how life is for the most part no? Its rare over all to find love in small groups for anyone. This does not change who you are.
I just don't like the argument that you have a set group of people, and they must be a mix of everything to make everyone happen. Be it moves, commercials, everything. Thats not real to me, thats not how the world works. There other players out there who you can find that will fit you better. People try to cater to everyone too much. I find leaving it to people to find there own happense is more rewarding, cause its more rare. Thats why I play MMO's, for the other players, not the NPC's. Sorry if I come off as a jerk, I just don't see why people are so upset. There is so much more to the game. And if this one thing is what your looking for, its still could be there among the player base, just not the NPC's.
it is called common sense and lessons learned from history of SW and how LA like to control SW IP. And what evidence you have to contrary? an obsecure and forgettable character called Beviin who makes no impact or difference to SW universe? there is difference between acknowledging that gay exists in SW universe and whole different matter to put them in front as main characters.
it would be foolish to think that Bioware is dictating LA to what to do or what not to do with their IP.
I hate to break it to you, but your character in SWTOR is never going to be more widely known than "Beviin", not your specific character with your specific choices.
It is foolish to assume anything, that this is bioware is as possible as it is that it is EA's call or LA's call. You are the one making the assumption. I'm pointing out the contradictory evidence to the assumption. I don't really care who made the call, I do on the other hand realize that it is one that has hurt a large portion of biowares supporters and I can empathize with that.
Oddly enough we see percentages thrown around this agrument alot, but few have acknowledged that this decision is likely to upset more of bioware's supporters than it is the general gaming public because of the fact that bioware themselves has included this kind of gameplay in the past.
The one thing that is bioware's fault is not giving the reason for it's exclusion in SWTOR and I think that is the reason so many people seem to feel hurt by the decision.
It's the same reason that many biracial people in the US used to try to pass as white, and often simply told themselves they were white. Because of the stigma and prejudice. The same is true for being gay. It's a trait that some people can hide, there is no heredity to trace either as with race. The most popular recent example is married republican state representative Phil Hinkle of Indiana that was caught soliciting sex from an 18 year old male for $80. His current statement is "I'm not gay. I don't know what I was thinking."
These people are not going to put a tick next to gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered on a survey no matter how anonymous it is. The do not identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered even though they beyond a doubt they are. So in the end you have a poll that is asking people to voluntarily anonymously tell what their sexuality is. The pol will always be wrong. Now when we get quick and easy walk-through brain scanning then you'll get more honsesty about the percentage of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people in the population. And that time is not very far off at all.
Take a look at the study and how it's conducted. You do a dis-service to your argument ignoring well researched data. Your examples even fit in quite nicely with the numbers given the huge gap between those admitting to having had an experience to those who claim it as their sole sexual identity.
The study actually takes well into account people who only "came out" late in life. I agree the TRUE number lies somewhere between the two, but I am unwilling to force someone into a role like sexual identity that they are unwilling to accept for themselves. To do so makes me no better than those such people are trying to hide from in the first place.
I agree. This whole argument is ironic considering one of the knocks against this game is that it is so scripted. Well, you have the ability to have a relationship with other players in game that isn't scripted and people are still up in arms because there isn't a scripted dialogue for same sex with the companions.
I've seen the argument that Bioware should do it because it was done in their other games. What they are forgetting is that Dragon Age was rated mature while TOR is not. I suspect all parties involved want this to have a low rating so that it can be sold to a wide audience. This was a business decision and people need to stop taking decisions like this so personally.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Probably, but my points are these...
First, I don't see how not including gay relationships = intolerence or bigotry. That's like saying BW is anti-handicapped because they don't have jedis in wheel chairs. It's ridiculous.
Second, as I see it, BW is being lambasted for basically having supported gay relationships in the past. Be honest, if a BW game NEVER had a gay relationship, then no one would care that they aren't in SWTOR.
But instead, BW DID have gay relationships in the past, and for some reason, certain individuals think this makes them entitled to have gay relationships in EVERY BW game. I'm sorry but this is not the case. BW does not "owe" you gay relationships in every game.
So instead of slamming them for not having gay relationships, you should be happy that they actually DID have gay relationships in TONS of games and really pioneered that kind of thing in mainstream video games in general. It's only because of BW that we're even having a conversation about gay relationships in games. Without them it wouldn't even be on anyone's radar.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
look u can still roleplay a gay relationship if u want. Its just not a story choice. Lets at least get to that part. Also they havent ruled out adding it after launch its just not there for launch.
The people having the biggest fit are liberals or homosexuals. Im sorry its a game for petes sakes. I wouldnt have an issue with a gay relationship option by the way. I just dont see why its a big deal
This is a huge game and a big undertaking with full voice over and stuff so changing the romance options also means they have to add dialogue choice to it as well. That requires more time then just putting it in for launch.
IM sure in the large scheme of things bioware didnt think it would be this big a deal it doesnt mean they dont want u to play there game. it just didnt make it to launch.
While i can understand if u are gay wanting same sex option i dont really understand why its a deal breaker. ive read most of the posts here i still dont understand.
The companion romance thing doesnt show up unless u do the right options of story choice earlier im gonna assume anyways.
The truth is u could play yoru colass and never see a romance option show up do to choices u made to begin with but then again why didnt bioware make it so u could romance companions no matter what will be a huge flame thread .
I think "learning" to be straight or gay is ridiculous. There is not 100% straight or 100% gay, rarely anway. There is a scale. Some people are closer to the gay side and some are closer to the straight side, and some are closer the middle bisexual area.
The reason there were more same sex relationships in the times of Greece and Rome is because gay men today are encouraged to hide in the closet, get married, have kids, and have affairs with men on the side. Meanwhile bisexual men are encouraged to push away those thoughts of attraction towards another dude and concentrate on the feelings they feel towards women, and convince themselves that they're "straight." lol
The actual real percentages of gay and bisexual people hasn't changed. It's just what is openly shown and accepted by society that changes. Changs in society, including games, that make it clear that discrimination and prejudice won't be tolerated go a long way to helping these sad people come out of the closet and stop bottling up all that self-hate and self-disgust.
If there is a place for everyone else's morals and opinions, I am sure there is room for mine as well...
You haven't provided any evidence to make me or anyone believe that it is Bioware calling the shots. i didn't know that a developer was allowed to make crucial decisions without first asking a big company like LA. So what is this evidence you keep talking about?
It would be hard to believe that company like LA which poked its nose into everything SWG related suddenly gave Bioware full command of the IP and told them 'do as you please'.
And yes Bioware has included this in their own titles like ME which do not follow same rule sets as an IP created by another company.