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Will TOR be the last?
Distopia
Member EpicPosts: 21,183
Will TOR be the last MMO built for those of us who prefer the traditional MMO mechanics it incorporates? With so many major publications beating on Bioware over their choices in design, I really don't see many following in their footsteps. Will the media push this industry into something it was never meant to be, action oriented?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
So you think role playing games shouldn't be about adventure and actions? What should they be about then? Some scholar life locked in a tower and learning magic?
If TOR makes money this style of MMO will be popular and emulated over and over again until another game with different mechanics makes more money.
I believe Distopia meant twitch based combat.
Pretty much this ^
Movies are a comparable example. No matter how bad they are as long as they make loads of money more and more will be made with more and more spent on them.
What? Where did I say that? What I said was the genre was never about action oriented game-play (by that I mean game-play akin to GOD of War or something like that).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I know, but does my questions have less sense because of that?
Mmo are leaning to more action and adventure, and dynamism, because it is where lie their future. In fact even the people that don't want twitch combat still ask for more dynamism and action, and player control in the good old turn based combat system.
In fact the evolution went like this; Pen&paper turn based, port to computer that have the dies roll automatically. Turn goes off. People ask for more player control, so they take off the auto turning feature (i think WoW). Then they took off auto attack. Then they simulate cover mechanism as skills (swtor).
People that think the tab targeting combat system is not searching for more dynamism and player control are delusional. Turn based combat is more dynamic and give better control to the player, because they simulate combat. And combat is about control and dynamism, maybe not as hysterical as quake like twitch combat, but certainly more smooth and dynamic than the actual tab targeting systems.
Sure it have see my post above.
Action movies were stuck a rut doing the same old things, then along came The Matrix. MMORPG right now, need it's next Matrix. RPG mechanics doesn't have to be auto target whack a mole to still feel rpg.
This is what I don't see happening, I also have a feeling TOR will be ripped apart by the media at large. Not even for being a bad game, but for being a familiar one. If they're already doing it in previews, I don't see why it would change at release.
We know DEVs have for the longest time been sticking to safe design practices, which is why we've had so many games like WOW. When that design is no longer viewed as safe, I don't see that continuing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Is it really that safe? So far any new MMO with a similar gameplay design has done bad, besides WoW. I would think it would be safer to say it doesn't work for new MMO's. Even if it is different (which I don't believe it will be) people will just assume it's the same song and dance and not even bother trying it.
Yet it will make them millions if not billions in the long term. It may get ripped by the critics but it will still generate large amounts of profit. Lets face it, even fail games have made the companies a lot of money and i see this one much as i do the Avatar movie. Same formulae that has been done before and popular with a prettier skin.
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Sadly There will be a huge amount of TOR rip off just like there were with WOW clones. Yes I do think in a way TOR will be the last original idea for a long while.
This is kind of a toss up...
There have been few MMORPGs with traditional mechanics that have done exceptionally well* since WoW.
Then again there have been few MMORPGs with NEW mechanics that have done exceptionally well* since WoW.
I really don't see mechanics as the issue here. If Rift has proven anything, polish the game, market non-stop, and content updates non-stop seem to be the biggest issues holding games back.
*breaking the multi-million subscriber mark and holding the position for at least a year.
They keep making them as long they make loads of money.
Masses screams for simple entertainment where they become a super hero in notime. If thats where moneys is then we keep getting those games.
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Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
How is this not obvious? Developers could care less what a bunch of burnt out game reviewers think. Developers care about money. Is there an example of a mmorpg that has totally differnt mechanics that also is making tons of cash? Where is that crazy succesful sandbox or skill based game? There isn't one? Hmmm, I guess developers will keep making these types of games since they seem to make money.
I think Pre-Trammel UO, EQ, Asherons Call and EVE were the last traditional MMO's. I see that most of the early-stage reviews and game-play videos that have been pouring-out from convention play, etc. has debunked SWTOR as a MMO, but more of a CORPG.
Trion with their Rift had injected an open-world dynamic ingredient that helped ward-off the single-player or coop-minded studio bend on the supposed MMO label, though needed more community and organic motivation and purpose to offer any game-play value to mount a coordinated and community-wide effort to thwart, with tangible and recognizable in-game repercusions,risks and rewards for either doing so or not doing so.
And from my perspective, it appears that GuildWars already made money with this style of mmo, actually called CORPG, thought not at $15/month. But where the world is a single-player interactive management lobby, though not a combative lobby, from which you instance into the pertinent character progression game-play within a personal space for accomplishments and core-content of game-play, whether it be PvE or PvP, for example.
So, no. TOR is not the last. The last already passed us by.
Good question. Original as far as taking a clasic game KotOR and turning it into the best MMO to date. I truly do not see any other games out there being turned into a MMO anytime soon. So it seems that BW started the concept that making it the original idea.
In the short term yes they are, but as soon as ToR fails to achieve any long term mega success that they envision then the sub-genre of Themeparks will die a rather quick death. This scenario will be greatly expediated as soon as GW2 releases a few months after ToR and enjoys overwhelming massive success.
Themeparks in the WoW sense of the word are doomed to failure because it offers little redeeming gameplay as opposed to a style that might be more action orientated with more focus on gameplay instead of artificial timesinks that the themepark sub-genre is notorious for.
Themeparks carcasses are littering the web from WAR to AoC which tried to capitilize the success that Blizzard enjoyed but not one of the clones enjoyed a tenth of their success, including Rift. Rift although a good game has less then 50% of their initial population and they are considered the closest in terms of themepark successes, but it still begs the question a polished turd is stil la turd.
GW2 will come along as show the genre that you can build a mega successful (WoW successful) MMO without using the archaic themepark MMO model that forces players to forgo the World in lieu of instance gameplay and the bait and switch of level up solo to raid centered endgame. GW2 will be a precurser to Developers that will showcase that you can indeed build a MMO with mostly sandbox elements and let players enjoy the freedom of gameplay and enjoyment of a fully dynamic huge open world which rewards exploration and adventure.
Mark this post and in 1-2 years after GW2 we will see a radical shift in the MMO culture from the themepark to the sandbox *more likely a sandpark*
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Action Combat will be like FFA-PvP in the recent mmos.
Some Fans and some Media will applaud loud - the games will fail.
Then they will blame that sandboxyness of the games for be not appealing...
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i dont think we've seen the last of the themeparks, just for ToR to fail on its own would not be enough.. perhaps if GW2 also failed.. and a few other themepark games that might have some effect, but if GW2 did have any degree of success that would just reinforce the themepark ethos, so to speak, all it might suggest is that a scifi themeparks arent really all that popular.. that players prefer metal swords to glowbats.. but.. its redundant speculation.. SW;TOR isnt going to fail, nor is GW2.. so.. more themeparks
action combat was tried in DCUO.. though whether that was the reason for the games lack of success is.. hard to determine.. as the number of factors unrelated to the control system are not exactly insignificant.. if SW;TOR succeeds then its likely that we'll see more of the WoW style combat with cooldowns and power/ability rotations etc.. action based combat is likely to remain in the province of single player games
like it or not, WoW evolved MMOs(themeparks)and TOR will do the same why?
because before WoW having quests in a game was not of an importance with WoW come quests and grand storyline for the solo players and the not i have a guild lets kill the boss tha spawns every 72 hours people.
TOR is trying to evolve the same consept,take the quests and give them a huge injection of awesomness(i hope that is,also WoW had some awesome quest-lines but the majority are generic)
RIFT evolved MMOs because it put a great idea Dynamic events inrtoduced by WaR and made them work better
ang GW2 will try to evolve all of the above(i hope that it succeeds)
the reason THEMEPARKS will stay is because we want themeparks IF people really like sandboxes then eve would have millions of players and for the non-scifi people darfall or Mortal online would have millions too...the only thing holding back a game is money if money are not poured into it you cant fix it if its broken...and before RIFT.EVERYONE were expecting an MMO at release to be broken
If TOR and GW2 succeed the next big thing will be a combination of the 2 of-course there will be countless(for mmo standars)failer atempts BUT i believe that developers took their lesson about copying...if you want to copy something either make it work(RIFT,LOTRO)or you will fail(WAR,AION,AOC)
from the 3 failures i mentioned
WAR instead of copying their own game(DAOC)they went and made a pvp oriented WoW
AION istead of sticking in their VERY SUCCESFULL LINEAGE way of things they tried to make a WoW like LINEAGE(for the west at least)
AOC even thought was quite original trying to make a back to the roots MMO failed because of bad developing(WAR too had bad development aside from WoW cloning it)
i explained the last 3 in order to avoid any missunderstanding
I understand the OPs sentiment, but I think what is more likely going to happen is that GW2 will simply fit into a different genre than what we consider traditional MMOs. Kind of like RTS vs turn-based strategy games. Fundamentally still the same venue, but different in gameplay. Let me put it this way, do you think CIV 5 competed with SC2 for the same market segment, or are they two different markets with separate audiences.
I think there is a lot to be said for the traditional, casual MMO gameplay. For one, there are times that it's exactly the type of gameplay I want because it's relaxing and I can have a drink while playing. Kinda like watching a movie. Engaged but not requiring my full attention.
Action MMOs are just a byproduct of people who think that MMOs should be based on skill and constant direct interaction as opposed to computerized calculations of hit/damage/defense. There is much to like in this as well. I enjoy FPS titles. In particular, lobbing nades through windows or over ridgelines to get kills, or even double kills. My kills are a compliment to my skill more than some computer generated number (or at least I like to think so). But that type of gameplay requires both hands on the wheel, quick thinking, and a constant search for visual cues to make the right choices. It's fun, but it's also stressful to a degree.
In short, they are two different gamestyles that lend themselves to different types of experiences. I can see myself playing both GW2 and SWTOR because I don't see them competing. Really. I mean, there are times that I would like to play GW2 more active, twitch based gameplay and other times that I would like SWTOR's more casual, narrative based gameplay. Conversely, I would say that it is more likely I would have a hard time choosing between GW2 and BF3, or SWTOR and Rift (actually not really a choice but for demonstrative purposes, bear with me) than I would between the two that everyone seems to think are in competition.
TL:DR - I think the more apt generalization is that GW2 will compete with other twitch-based, action oriented games and SWTOR will compete with the more traditional MMO crowd.