Games that require you to form parties and to rely on all party members, builds the trust, confidence, and comradery that games currently lack. These aspects are something that was common 7-15 years ago in games, but the essence of that pure game design has long been lost.
The game designers fail to understand that giving bonuses in group fights is key to lasting power... not diminishing the rewards, this only forces people to be greedy, or become "solo" ers.
Players don't have any reason to rely on anyone in a party, as their chances of getting "good loot" will diminish and so will their experience.
Hope game designers get the message.
I believe you are correct. When players need others, they tend to socialize and act more civilized to the players around you.
Also, the games were designed around the concept of a single character and server so if you became reknown for being an ass, it actually mattered. Today with cross server grouping and easy leveling for alternate characters, it isn't an issue.
To the OP, I found that playing mmo's with real life friends reaaally helps with all that anti-social attitudes of the masses. Whenever I play an mmo "alone" I always feel isolated, and even the online friends I make are transparent... On the flipside, every time I've played an mmo with actual real life good friends, it's like we're hanging out while kicking ass. Also I get the feelig like "who cares what anyone else thinks about me/my group?" and we're free to make the game fun for ourselves. The tricky part is convincing friends that a new mmo is worth it :P
Games that require you to form parties and to rely on all party members, builds the trust, confidence, and comradery that games currently lack. These aspects are something that was common 7-15 years ago in games, but the essence of that pure game design has long been lost.
The game designers fail to understand that giving bonuses in group fights is key to lasting power... not diminishing the rewards, this only forces people to be greedy, or become "solo" ers.
Players don't have any reason to rely on anyone in a party, as their chances of getting "good loot" will diminish and so will their experience.
Hope game designers get the message.
I believe you are correct. When players need others, they tend to socialize and act more civilized to the players around you.
Also, the games were designed around the concept of a single character and server so if you became reknown for being an ass, it actually mattered. Today with cross server grouping and easy leveling for alternate characters, it isn't an issue.
I personally don't like to be forced to group in games. The games that used to make us pal up... I met just as many assholes there as I have in the more recent LFG games... the only difference is that I HAD TO be around them lol. I think the /ignore list is a beautiful thing... Games like WOW pulling kids away from the consoles and the steady drop in computer prices has also brought every asshat and his brother into a world that used to be a relatively small group of computer geeks.
The flip side of the coin I think is that the NICE people that game, the ones that have manners and do right by others are also not as apt to be friendly and add you as a friend because they already assume everyone is an asshole lol. I think those of us that have issues with the gaming community at large, should probably keep an eye out for eachother, and when you actually do group up or have a casual conversation with someone NICE... be sure to add them as a friend and continue those relationships. I have a group of about 10-15 people that I've gamed with for 4-7 years who are awesome people and we jump from game to game together.
I understand what the OP means, and I agree. TS can be annoying and unrelaxing, I also prefer chatting (although I have done TS a lot of times for games like planetside and GW1).
But my best experience in a MMO to date was with SWG, and that was because of its strong community. The developers gave us many many many tools for community building, while new MMOs based on WoW give us almost zero, except for difficult raids. And those tools worked nicely with chat (unlike difficult raids). I have never been a role player but I do enjoy having casual conversation with other players around me and socializing in a relaxed setting. I think chat is more relaxing than voice chat and that is probably why I prefer it. Also because chat maintains the barrier of the game so that I can experience the virtual world as an escape from everyday life.
I miss SWG for the community and the excellent tools that helped build the community and made me feel attached to my character and friends.
this ^^
and to Jj72... it wasn't about the flavor of the day, you played a game for a long time and people weren't in a rush to just gear up. You're exactly what he's talking about lol. Being busy doesn't instantly make you an asshole, the two don't have to coincide at all.
having read most of the threads it seems there are two groups...
1. MMO players of old that prefer grouping and working with others
2. Newer MMO players that prefer to have the option to do group stuff.
It also seems there are shades of both ideologies that overlap. It would seem like this could be easily overcome by playing games with players that have the same goals in mind. This ofc would rule out most themepark games as the the primary "goal" is to level and acquire loot.
You can easily solve this by playing a sandbox game like EvE that offers these to players as an option. I haven't run a "quest" (mission in EvE terms) in over a year...because I CHOOSE not to.
I will concede however that playing AoC..for all the great things about it...the lack of interaction with other human beings for me has caused me not to log in a few weeks.
It seems that games that involve PvP require TS or Vent. I have never found this a problem b/c players in stressful situations act differently than a PvE boss that has been killed 27 times that day. I can state for a fact that voice comms in a purely tactical sense have saved me many times in EvE. Same goes in Darkfall.
I thought we were striving to play with other people in MMO's? I don't know if that is the case so much anymore.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
I understand what the OP means, and I agree. TS can be annoying and unrelaxing, I also prefer chatting (although I have done TS a lot of times for games like planetside and GW1).
But my best experience in a MMO to date was with SWG, and that was because of its strong community. The developers gave us many many many tools for community building, while new MMOs based on WoW give us almost zero, except for difficult raids. And those tools worked nicely with chat (unlike difficult raids). I have never been a role player but I do enjoy having casual conversation with other players around me and socializing in a relaxed setting. I think chat is more relaxing than voice chat and that is probably why I prefer it. Also because chat maintains the barrier of the game so that I can experience the virtual world as an escape from everyday life.
I miss SWG for the community and the excellent tools that helped build the community and made me feel attached to my character and friends.
this ^^
and to Jj72... it wasn't about the flavor of the day, you played a game for a long time and people weren't in a rush to just gear up. You're exactly what he's talking about lol. Being busy doesn't instantly make you an asshole, the two don't have to coincide at all.
What am I exactly?
All I see is BS, anything to avoid what I just asked.
Stating the obvious really bothers many of you people.
Amazing how many of you guys don't have a clue about life. In relation to a game that took most of it away. The fact that people can't all live like that, but then there are some who choose to do so.
I believe it boils down to poor game design and egotism.
Games that require you to form parties and to rely on all party members, builds the trust, confidence, and comradery that games currently lack. These aspects are something that was common 7-15 years ago in games, but the essence of that pure game design has long been lost.
The game designers fail to understand that giving bonuses in group fights is key to lasting power...
What game designers realize is that any game that forces you to group is NOT going to bring in a lot of subscribers. You can debate and lament this all you want, but it's true and they know it. No modern MMO will be successful if it forces grouping for everything.
Also, while teaming can be fun, I do not play games to 'build comraderie or trust" in others, or even to make friends. That happens (or doesn't) as a byproduct of playing. I play a game to play the game. That is my only reason for being there.
WOW-clones aren't designed to be social and friendly, they are designed to promote anti-social behavior and hate especially against those in your own faction: ore theives, ninja looters, PUG-holes, murder...
You fail to grasp a fundamental of the Internet. Read up on Road Rage and you will understand quickly. It's also the same psychological circumstance why they tell you in a hostage situation to resist at all costs having a bag put over your head. It dehumanizes you into an object, and objects are easy to hate, abuse, even destroy. That is is the root behavior. it isn't a person at the other end, it's just a toon on the screen at a low, deep, psychological level in the human brain.
It isn't the fact that Anonimity + Internet = Fuckwad (The Gabriel Theory from Penny Arcade), it is the fact that the computer is a barrier masking the human at the other end much like a car masks the driver in traffic.
You cannot, over a large sample of people, develop a meaningful relationship with people you've never seen. All the physical communication is absent.
I believe it boils down to poor game design and egotism.
Games that require you to form parties and to rely on all party members, builds the trust, confidence, and comradery that games currently lack. These aspects are something that was common 7-15 years ago in games, but the essence of that pure game design has long been lost.
The game designers fail to understand that giving bonuses in group fights is key to lasting power...
What game designers realize is that any game that forces you to group is NOT going to bring in a lot of subscribers. You can debate and lament this all you want, but it's true and they know it. No modern MMO will be successful if it forces grouping for everything.
Also, while teaming can be fun, I do not play games to 'build comraderie or trust" in others, or even to make friends. That happens (or doesn't) as a byproduct of playing. I play a game to play the game. That is my only reason for being there.
I laugh becasue this is true. These are the same people who lack commen sense, as they jump to blame developers. These die hards want Socializing to be one of the biggest part of any MMORPG experiance, but don't understand that since EQ there are more people playing MMOs so you get more of the same types of people.
EQ players eventually moved on to play other games and can't even agree to play one game since then. Whine and bitch about how things are not the same for them anymore.
You fail to grasp a fundamental of the Internet. Read up on Road Rage and you will understand quickly. It's also the same psychological circumstance why they tell you in a hostage situation to resist at all costs having a bag put over your head. It dehumanizes you into an object, and objects are easy to hate, abuse, even destroy. That is is the root behavior. it isn't a person at the other end, it's just a toon on the screen at a low, deep, psychological level in the human brain.
It isn't the fact that Anonimity + Internet = Fuckwad (The Gabriel Theory from Penny Arcade), it is the fact that the computer is a barrier masking the human at the other end much like a car masks the driver in traffic.
You cannot, over a large sample of people, develop a meaningful relationship with people you've never seen. All the physical communication is absent.
WOW-clones aren't designed to be social and friendly, they are designed to promote anti-social behavior and hate especially against those in your own faction: ore theives, ninja looters, PUG-holes, murder...
having read most of the threads it seems there are two groups...
1. MMO players of old that prefer grouping and working with others
2. Newer MMO players that prefer to have the option to do group stuff.
It also seems there are shades of both ideologies that overlap. It would seem like this could be easily overcome by playing games with players that have the same goals in mind. This ofc would rule out most themepark games as the the primary "goal" is to level and acquire loot.
You can easily solve this by playing a sandbox game like EvE that offers these to players as an option. I haven't run a "quest" (mission in EvE terms) in over a year...because I CHOOSE not to.
I will concede however that playing AoC..for all the great things about it...the lack of interaction with other human beings for me has caused me not to log in a few weeks.
It seems that games that involve PvP require TS or Vent. I have never found this a problem b/c players in stressful situations act differently than a PvE boss that has been killed 27 times that day. I can state for a fact that voice comms in a purely tactical sense have saved me many times in EvE. Same goes in Darkfall.
I thought we were striving to play with other people in MMO's? I don't know if that is the case so much anymore.
That is hard to say really since you many types of multi payer types from vs (pvp), to co-up (group or raid), compatition based multi-player games, and many more. Most would say they want to feel liek they are in a large living and breathing world, but i real life are you always around everyone and forced or expected to be apart of them group (with penalities enforced by the game/world for not doing this.)? Massive multi player online is well vague it is not saying co-op, vs, or anythign of what it is just alot of people playing on line together around another with the chance to do all the multiplayer possibilties. I had both lan diablo games where me and my riends would just play around one another but not really with one another too see another player. Everyone has their opinion of what mmo will be from those die hard foced groupies, to the soloist i will group when i have to, with the inbetweener.
I pondered this today, and there may be another small contributing factor (this thread's listed at least a couple of dozen).
In the earliest games, it was rare to have a lot of character slots. You were generally known by the "handle" of a single toon.
Once the character slots (and across multiple servers too) exploded, it's easier to develop a self-sufficient set of alts that can do any craft, store up mats, manipulate the auction house. And there's less accountability, it you get yourself in social troubles, you just hide away on a different alt until the heat cools down, or you transfer servers/change names. "Blacklisting" hasn't worked in quite a while--Blizzard will happily sell you a "get out of jail free" card at any time.
And I think it affects the players too, not quite so attached to a single identity, no reason or desire to "behave" all the time, no reputation to consider.
(Yes, it's at very best a tiny part of the larger issue--but from the sound of it we have dozens of things contributing to one big problem.)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I pondered this today, and there may be another small contributing factor (this thread's listed at least a couple of dozen).
In the earliest games, it was rare to have a lot of character slots. You were generally known by the "handle" of a single toon.
Once the character slots (and across multiple servers too) exploded, it's easier to develop a self-sufficient set of alts that can do any craft, store up mats, manipulate the auction house. And there's less accountability, it you get yourself in social troubles, you just hide away on a different alt until the heat cools down, or you transfer servers/change names. "Blacklisting" hasn't worked in quite a while--Blizzard will happily sell you a "get out of jail free" card at any time.
And I think it affects the players too, not quite so attached to a single identity, no reason or desire to "behave" all the time, no reputation to consider.
(Yes, it's at very best a tiny part of the larger issue--but from the sound of it we have dozens of things contributing to one big problem.)
One ide would be to place a bratching effect that as you get thing attached to you such as blacklisting, ignores, rep, and such they actually are linked to the account not the character. Meaning that if you ignore one charatcer they all are ignored, and so on and so forth, which would lead to accountability since ouutside of lleaving yoru server (maybe have it be linked to the name without it being taken off after leaving till the player removes it.) your actions wil haunt you. A bounty system that would allow people to place prices on people's head for actions taken (via a ingame system which would need to be able to verify it happened.)against you, ninja/cheater.griefers would ve managed by the people thru their behavior causing them to be huanted in pvp areas even arrested by ingame forces.
WOW-clones aren't designed to be social and friendly, they are designed to promote anti-social behavior and hate especially against those in your own faction: ore theives, ninja looters, PUG-holes, murder...
WoW Clone?
What game is a WoW Clone?
WoW is WoW, there is no other game like it.
Can we call WoW an EQ Clone?
I shouldnt have to explain this, but a "wow clone" is any game that tries desperately to copy most or all of the mechanics in WoW, doing very little differently. And yes there are games that have at least tried very hard to be like it. I said tried, not necessarily succeded.
And I guess WoW could have been an EQ clone, but I never played EQ so beats me.
And I guess WoW could have been an EQ clone, but I never played EQ so beats me.
The charge of "EQ clone" was very, very common in '94.
It was about as meaningful as "WoW clone" is today--one of those ominous-sounding accusations you use against the "enemy game" when you hope it won't succeed.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think the equation is close. However I wouldnt start it with a normal person.
It might go something like, " Dickwad + anonymity+ audience = spreading dickwad behavior to others who see this as an example of normal internet behavior also = more Dickwads "
Which has me long worried that anti social internet behavior could spread to encompass real life. Take some kid who plays on the net or messes around a lot. He's a good kid. But soon others like him are acting like little ***** so he thinks this is normal and begins to do it. No sooner than that, he goes ahead and carries this attitude into the real world but to a lesser degree.
Thus producing an entire generation of......"dickwads". Public or private this is what they've seen as an example of normal peer behavior. In real life someone who is a big jerk sort of gets frowned on. His voice is obnoxious, his behavior is repulsive but you notice these things right away by noticing the body language, voice, face tells, etc. Humans are very good at that. But on the internet you might think some jerk is a cool dude, especially if you are young. You cant see his face, hear his voice, or read his body language.
And before you know it? Little kids are acting like "Dickwads". Thus? The anonymity of the internet destroys human society as we know it, and we're surrounded by cocky little jerks.
It's certainly a problem with the current generation and those players are the ones that are being catered to in today's MMOs. There are severalbooks out there that show this with actual statistics. It's not so much that today's MMO players are against being social so much as their perception of being social, as well as their values being far, far different than previous generations.
OP, if you were really into the social nature of MMORPGs, I'm really surprised you only experienced this now and finally got fed up with it. It was one of the things that got to me years ago. Finally quit MMORPGs in 2009 and have no regret whatsoever. The genre has drastically changed. Group play is at an all-time low, to the point of even penalizing groups. Frequency of groups, silent groups, and of course, groups that disperse the moment a quest is complete without even saying "Bye." Solo friendliness has skyrocketed. GW1 introduced NPCs that you can acquire that can fill out your "party" slots. You could even select their class and skills, outfit them with gear, give orders. BioWare proudly touts NPCs to replace players for SWTOR. In short, replacing players outright. It's not going to get better.
I can go on, but in short, just leave the genre like I did. I still dip into news about it and waiting for it to change, as well as raise the occasional stink about the State of MMORPG Affairs. Until then, it is not worth it to spend the time, money, effort in a game that has lost grasp on the things you like about it.
The genre aren't Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games anymore. They're Single Player Role Playing Games that require an internet connection.
Cut the threads, let it go.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
You had nuuuuumerous guilds from epeen stretching hero's to casual.
Pvp and Pve, massive world pvp in Tarren Mill / Black rock depths where horde and allaince duked it out at the raid entrances for hours on end.
In battleground premades you knew your oponents first name, you talked with them on Ventrillo / Teamspeak
Man what a time was that in the early wow days.
It got worse and worse once WoW grew and blizzard made changes to cross server battlegrounds.
Server migrations ripped whole community's apart.
Immature players took over and addons like Gearscore made things even worse.
Short story of how awesome and how bad community's become over the course of a few years.
It looks like that in 2004 people where helpfull and patience and assisted you when you where a noob.
In 2006 and onwards the mmo population swiftly changed to a greedy / bashing / inpatient / bad mouthed community.
Now in 2011/2012 most mmo's are rotten with those players and internet hero's trying to act cool and hide behind a avatar thinking they rule the world.
Like they think that what they say have an impact and being bad mouthed and impatient is the new way to talk to people in mmo's.
Ye i feel that people mentality changed over the years, dunno if age got anything to to with it, but man so many great mmo's are ruined by these idiots
You know, ever since I left EQ2 I haven't been in one really good guild. Guilds in these days fall completely in two categories: pro raiders with weekly schedules and chat channel-guild. The first sort I don't want to join, because I don't want into these pecking orders, where loot is given on rankings and schedules are mandatory like in a job! And the second, you know the sentece I get all the time? "Well sorry but I am busy doing my quests now."
I just played in a rather difficult and dangerous zone in LOTRO, Isengart. And lots of people all around doing the same quests. And do you think just ONE of them would react to a LFG call? No. Many even prefer apparently do die again and again over joining someone.
You see, I am usually a helpful guy in MMOs. When someone has some task yet I have not, I used to help and just run along. Or when someone was LFG and didn't get help for some time, I just help for the sake of. Or when someone is in danger, I run and help. I mean, I saw that as normal for many years. But the last 2+ years, this has totally vanished from games. Back when SWG and EQ2 were new that was common! When someone needed help, it was easy to get help, whether this person had the same quests or not! It was give and take! And people were actually TALKING. Now, it's hi and bye and IF you get a group, people fight alongside like silent robots!
And don't me even get started about the Teamspeak faschism! I am so sick and tired to get kicked from groups when I say I don't do TS. I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR YOU VOICE. Period. I mean, heck we did without TS in the old days against REALLY difficult mobs! In REALLY dangerous zones! People played UO and EQ years without any voiceover, just because they learned their class!
But what REALLY pisses me off like nothing else are these smartass "advisors"! People who will sent you tells about "how with THAT sword or THIS armour you totally suck!" Or how "this or that skills are TOTALLY bad", and sorry but that is the POX and BANE of WOW. No game forced this thrice be damned min-maxxing as much as WoW. Now you need to farm 2000 of these and 500 of them mobs, to get skill point X or faction gear Y. I am so tired of this bizarre sort of MMO design! Where have the times gone, when we just went off to adventure! When it was just we, some quested, looted or crafted gear and off you went!
Sigh. This entire genre and it's player so developed into something sick and anti-social. Its all no longer about exciting adventure, but stats and skills and grinding the right gear and demands and whatnot. This is just isn't they cooperative fun anymore, and all the wonder is replaced by the damn E-sports mentality.
/rant over
I can only say im 100% agree with you, thats reason why i quit mmo's all together and play solo games mainly rpg's.
What you discribe as social and helpfull community i expereience this to the FULL in Asherons call 2 and i still miss that game alot for its wonderfull community.
So im in same positions as you and fed up with this whole new appraoch to games and i dont think it will change any time soon there just to many new gamers after WoW launched that dont know better to behave as you describe.
Good luck with whatever your gonne play next:)
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
This is the reason im playing Vanguard atm. It has the best commuinity i have ever experienced! Might not be the biggest community, but everyone here are so nice and helpfull, the guild i am in has alot of casual people, some who do raiding too and the high levels always helps us lowbies with dungeons etc.
Should check it out if you want a game with good community! :>
Comments
I believe you are correct. When players need others, they tend to socialize and act more civilized to the players around you.
Also, the games were designed around the concept of a single character and server so if you became reknown for being an ass, it actually mattered. Today with cross server grouping and easy leveling for alternate characters, it isn't an issue.
To the OP, I found that playing mmo's with real life friends reaaally helps with all that anti-social attitudes of the masses. Whenever I play an mmo "alone" I always feel isolated, and even the online friends I make are transparent... On the flipside, every time I've played an mmo with actual real life good friends, it's like we're hanging out while kicking ass. Also I get the feelig like "who cares what anyone else thinks about me/my group?" and we're free to make the game fun for ourselves. The tricky part is convincing friends that a new mmo is worth it :P
I personally don't like to be forced to group in games. The games that used to make us pal up... I met just as many assholes there as I have in the more recent LFG games... the only difference is that I HAD TO be around them lol. I think the /ignore list is a beautiful thing... Games like WOW pulling kids away from the consoles and the steady drop in computer prices has also brought every asshat and his brother into a world that used to be a relatively small group of computer geeks.
The flip side of the coin I think is that the NICE people that game, the ones that have manners and do right by others are also not as apt to be friendly and add you as a friend because they already assume everyone is an asshole lol. I think those of us that have issues with the gaming community at large, should probably keep an eye out for eachother, and when you actually do group up or have a casual conversation with someone NICE... be sure to add them as a friend and continue those relationships. I have a group of about 10-15 people that I've gamed with for 4-7 years who are awesome people and we jump from game to game together.
No bitchers.
To the OP!
Think about how much time EQ required out your life.
TIME SINK
A lot of people do not have that LUXURY of being jobless, living in parents basement, or retired.
Which one are you?
this ^^
and to Jj72... it wasn't about the flavor of the day, you played a game for a long time and people weren't in a rush to just gear up. You're exactly what he's talking about lol. Being busy doesn't instantly make you an asshole, the two don't have to coincide at all.
No bitchers.
having read most of the threads it seems there are two groups...
1. MMO players of old that prefer grouping and working with others
2. Newer MMO players that prefer to have the option to do group stuff.
It also seems there are shades of both ideologies that overlap. It would seem like this could be easily overcome by playing games with players that have the same goals in mind. This ofc would rule out most themepark games as the the primary "goal" is to level and acquire loot.
You can easily solve this by playing a sandbox game like EvE that offers these to players as an option. I haven't run a "quest" (mission in EvE terms) in over a year...because I CHOOSE not to.
I will concede however that playing AoC..for all the great things about it...the lack of interaction with other human beings for me has caused me not to log in a few weeks.
It seems that games that involve PvP require TS or Vent. I have never found this a problem b/c players in stressful situations act differently than a PvE boss that has been killed 27 times that day. I can state for a fact that voice comms in a purely tactical sense have saved me many times in EvE. Same goes in Darkfall.
I thought we were striving to play with other people in MMO's? I don't know if that is the case so much anymore.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
What am I exactly?
All I see is BS, anything to avoid what I just asked.
Stating the obvious really bothers many of you people.
Amazing how many of you guys don't have a clue about life. In relation to a game that took most of it away. The fact that people can't all live like that, but then there are some who choose to do so.
So again!
Which one are you or were you at that time?
College Student?
Unemployed?
Retired?
What game designers realize is that any game that forces you to group is NOT going to bring in a lot of subscribers. You can debate and lament this all you want, but it's true and they know it. No modern MMO will be successful if it forces grouping for everything.
Also, while teaming can be fun, I do not play games to 'build comraderie or trust" in others, or even to make friends. That happens (or doesn't) as a byproduct of playing. I play a game to play the game. That is my only reason for being there.
WOW-clones aren't designed to be social and friendly, they are designed to promote anti-social behavior and hate especially against those in your own faction: ore theives, ninja looters, PUG-holes, murder...
You fail to grasp a fundamental of the Internet. Read up on Road Rage and you will understand quickly. It's also the same psychological circumstance why they tell you in a hostage situation to resist at all costs having a bag put over your head. It dehumanizes you into an object, and objects are easy to hate, abuse, even destroy. That is is the root behavior. it isn't a person at the other end, it's just a toon on the screen at a low, deep, psychological level in the human brain.
It isn't the fact that Anonimity + Internet = Fuckwad (The Gabriel Theory from Penny Arcade), it is the fact that the computer is a barrier masking the human at the other end much like a car masks the driver in traffic.
You cannot, over a large sample of people, develop a meaningful relationship with people you've never seen. All the physical communication is absent.
I laugh becasue this is true. These are the same people who lack commen sense, as they jump to blame developers. These die hards want Socializing to be one of the biggest part of any MMORPG experiance, but don't understand that since EQ there are more people playing MMOs so you get more of the same types of people.
EQ players eventually moved on to play other games and can't even agree to play one game since then. Whine and bitch about how things are not the same for them anymore.
Another great post!
WoW Clone?
What game is a WoW Clone?
WoW is WoW, there is no other game like it.
Can we call WoW an EQ Clone?
That is hard to say really since you many types of multi payer types from vs (pvp), to co-up (group or raid), compatition based multi-player games, and many more. Most would say they want to feel liek they are in a large living and breathing world, but i real life are you always around everyone and forced or expected to be apart of them group (with penalities enforced by the game/world for not doing this.)? Massive multi player online is well vague it is not saying co-op, vs, or anythign of what it is just alot of people playing on line together around another with the chance to do all the multiplayer possibilties. I had both lan diablo games where me and my riends would just play around one another but not really with one another too see another player. Everyone has their opinion of what mmo will be from those die hard foced groupies, to the soloist i will group when i have to, with the inbetweener.
I pondered this today, and there may be another small contributing factor (this thread's listed at least a couple of dozen).
In the earliest games, it was rare to have a lot of character slots. You were generally known by the "handle" of a single toon.
Once the character slots (and across multiple servers too) exploded, it's easier to develop a self-sufficient set of alts that can do any craft, store up mats, manipulate the auction house. And there's less accountability, it you get yourself in social troubles, you just hide away on a different alt until the heat cools down, or you transfer servers/change names. "Blacklisting" hasn't worked in quite a while--Blizzard will happily sell you a "get out of jail free" card at any time.
And I think it affects the players too, not quite so attached to a single identity, no reason or desire to "behave" all the time, no reputation to consider.
(Yes, it's at very best a tiny part of the larger issue--but from the sound of it we have dozens of things contributing to one big problem.)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
One ide would be to place a bratching effect that as you get thing attached to you such as blacklisting, ignores, rep, and such they actually are linked to the account not the character. Meaning that if you ignore one charatcer they all are ignored, and so on and so forth, which would lead to accountability since ouutside of lleaving yoru server (maybe have it be linked to the name without it being taken off after leaving till the player removes it.) your actions wil haunt you. A bounty system that would allow people to place prices on people's head for actions taken (via a ingame system which would need to be able to verify it happened.)against you, ninja/cheater.griefers would ve managed by the people thru their behavior causing them to be huanted in pvp areas even arrested by ingame forces.
I shouldnt have to explain this, but a "wow clone" is any game that tries desperately to copy most or all of the mechanics in WoW, doing very little differently. And yes there are games that have at least tried very hard to be like it. I said tried, not necessarily succeded.
And I guess WoW could have been an EQ clone, but I never played EQ so beats me.
The charge of "EQ clone" was very, very common in '94.
It was about as meaningful as "WoW clone" is today--one of those ominous-sounding accusations you use against the "enemy game" when you hope it won't succeed.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think the equation is close. However I wouldnt start it with a normal person.
It might go something like, " Dickwad + anonymity+ audience = spreading dickwad behavior to others who see this as an example of normal internet behavior also = more Dickwads "
Which has me long worried that anti social internet behavior could spread to encompass real life. Take some kid who plays on the net or messes around a lot. He's a good kid. But soon others like him are acting like little ***** so he thinks this is normal and begins to do it. No sooner than that, he goes ahead and carries this attitude into the real world but to a lesser degree.
Thus producing an entire generation of......"dickwads". Public or private this is what they've seen as an example of normal peer behavior. In real life someone who is a big jerk sort of gets frowned on. His voice is obnoxious, his behavior is repulsive but you notice these things right away by noticing the body language, voice, face tells, etc. Humans are very good at that. But on the internet you might think some jerk is a cool dude, especially if you are young. You cant see his face, hear his voice, or read his body language.
And before you know it? Little kids are acting like "Dickwads". Thus? The anonymity of the internet destroys human society as we know it, and we're surrounded by cocky little jerks.
Have a nice day. : P
It's certainly a problem with the current generation and those players are the ones that are being catered to in today's MMOs. There are several books out there that show this with actual statistics. It's not so much that today's MMO players are against being social so much as their perception of being social, as well as their values being far, far different than previous generations.
OP, if you were really into the social nature of MMORPGs, I'm really surprised you only experienced this now and finally got fed up with it. It was one of the things that got to me years ago. Finally quit MMORPGs in 2009 and have no regret whatsoever. The genre has drastically changed. Group play is at an all-time low, to the point of even penalizing groups. Frequency of groups, silent groups, and of course, groups that disperse the moment a quest is complete without even saying "Bye." Solo friendliness has skyrocketed. GW1 introduced NPCs that you can acquire that can fill out your "party" slots. You could even select their class and skills, outfit them with gear, give orders. BioWare proudly touts NPCs to replace players for SWTOR. In short, replacing players outright. It's not going to get better.
I can go on, but in short, just leave the genre like I did. I still dip into news about it and waiting for it to change, as well as raise the occasional stink about the State of MMORPG Affairs. Until then, it is not worth it to spend the time, money, effort in a game that has lost grasp on the things you like about it.
The genre aren't Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games anymore. They're Single Player Role Playing Games that require an internet connection.
Cut the threads, let it go.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Back in time...we go to 2005 World of Warcraft !
Community was mega and awesome.
You had nuuuuumerous guilds from epeen stretching hero's to casual.
Pvp and Pve, massive world pvp in Tarren Mill / Black rock depths where horde and allaince duked it out at the raid entrances for hours on end.
In battleground premades you knew your oponents first name, you talked with them on Ventrillo / Teamspeak
Man what a time was that in the early wow days.
It got worse and worse once WoW grew and blizzard made changes to cross server battlegrounds.
Server migrations ripped whole community's apart.
Immature players took over and addons like Gearscore made things even worse.
Short story of how awesome and how bad community's become over the course of a few years.
It looks like that in 2004 people where helpfull and patience and assisted you when you where a noob.
In 2006 and onwards the mmo population swiftly changed to a greedy / bashing / inpatient / bad mouthed community.
Now in 2011/2012 most mmo's are rotten with those players and internet hero's trying to act cool and hide behind a avatar thinking they rule the world.
Like they think that what they say have an impact and being bad mouthed and impatient is the new way to talk to people in mmo's.
Ye i feel that people mentality changed over the years, dunno if age got anything to to with it, but man so many great mmo's are ruined by these idiots
I can only say im 100% agree with you, thats reason why i quit mmo's all together and play solo games mainly rpg's.
What you discribe as social and helpfull community i expereience this to the FULL in Asherons call 2 and i still miss that game alot for its wonderfull community.
So im in same positions as you and fed up with this whole new appraoch to games and i dont think it will change any time soon there just to many new gamers after WoW launched that dont know better to behave as you describe.
Good luck with whatever your gonne play next:)
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This is the reason im playing Vanguard atm. It has the best commuinity i have ever experienced! Might not be the biggest community, but everyone here are so nice and helpfull, the guild i am in has alot of casual people, some who do raiding too and the high levels always helps us lowbies with dungeons etc.
Should check it out if you want a game with good community! :>
Currently Playing Path of Exile
MMO's today have made it OK to be anti social,you can pretty much do anything and everything by yourself.
Which I always found to be odd,if youre making your game solo/anti social friendly,then why bother making it an MMO?
why play MMO's if you dont want to deal with anyone?