You had nuuuuumerous guilds from epeen stretching hero's to casual.
Pvp and Pve, massive world pvp in Tarren Mill / Black rock depths where horde and allaince duked it out at the raid entrances for hours on end.
In battleground premades you knew your oponents first name, you talked with them on Ventrillo / Teamspeak
Man what a time was that in the early wow days.
It got worse and worse once WoW grew and blizzard made changes to cross server battlegrounds.
Server migrations ripped whole community's apart.
Immature players took over and addons like Gearscore made things even worse.
Short story of how awesome and how bad community's become over the course of a few years.
It looks like that in 2004 people where helpfull and patience and assisted you when you where a noob.
In 2006 and onwards the mmo population swiftly changed to a greedy / bashing / inpatient / bad mouthed community.
Now in 2011/2012 most mmo's are rotten with those players and internet hero's trying to act cool and hide behind a avatar thinking they rule the world.
Like they think that what they say have an impact and being bad mouthed and impatient is the new way to talk to people in mmo's.
Ye i feel that people mentality changed over the years, dunno if age got anything to to with it, but man so many great mmo's are ruined by these idiots
Plus the fact that they also dont wanne do anything anymore they call these days almost everything timesink they dont want travel 5 min or they SCREAM/WHINE on forums or ingame bah:( no investment "I WANT IT NOW OR ILL QUIT", result itemshops ezmode gameplay and be a uber hero in week.
Free two play games didn't help eather they just make it all worse:(
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
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Any socialization needs time. To socialize properly you need to spend lots and lots of time with people you want to socialize with.
Neither you nor they have that time. I have job, family, other interests. I can play, say, 1 hour a day two day a week. It is impossible to properly socialize with anyone with such time restraints. If I have 1 hour to do a quest, I can't spend half of it helping a guy I don't know to do the quest I've did already.
As for talking in groups, what do we talk about? The game? You don't like "you need to do this to get that sword" discussions, and what else to talk about there? Each other? I'm a builder from Latvia, you are a mom homeschooling your children from Nebraska, I don't care and don't want to hear about your brats or your bitchy neighbour and you don't want to hear about what a freaking moron was my last client or my other hobby of model building. So what's to talk about?
Obvious answer from you, OP, of course, will be "well don't play MY game which should be played the way I want it to be played, you are destroying MY genre with your completely imporper way of enjoying it so you have to go because me me ME!" That's actually pretty much the standard reply on any mmorpg-related opinion I post on this forum.
On which my answer would be "don't tell me what to do and I will not tell you where to go".
MMO's today have made it OK to be anti social,you can pretty much do anything and everything by yourself.
Which I always found to be odd,if youre making your game solo/anti social friendly,then why bother making it an MMO?
why play MMO's if you dont want to deal with anyone?
Ive np with people wanne play solo and why not. These days its just that most solo players dont talk dont help and wanne do game 100% solo no sharing at all.
Ive played also manytimes solo but i always talk help and support if people ask worked for me perfectly perfectly i still interact with community. I was a vetran in Darkfall and help alot of new players give then stuff and help them in PvP or PvE.
Forced grouping in some games or you get nowhere im also agains i wont play those games eather.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
If what you are actually lamenting is lack of social interaction, then look for improved socialization tools inside mmorpg. Look for things modeled on Facebook or Twitter. Even MySpace is less primitive than what's available in mmorpg. For that matter, even Aol* had more options.
On the other hand if what you really want is that players be required to interact with each other for character progression, then say that. That's not socialization. That's putting a bunch of people in a skinner box and telling them they have to work together to get out.
* I am not advocating making mmorpg like Aol or anything Facebook. However, the tools and systems presented for people to socialize are far more advanced than what's in any mmorpg. Mmorpg developers could learn something from them.
** edit **
I should have the alternative to group mechanics and skinner boxes. Solo content is liking putting a bunch of people in a skinner box, and each of them can get out on their own, but with the option to talk to each other if they want.
Gonna have to disagree there. It is completely acceptable and even necessary for games to be designed to push you in a particular direction. "Increased player interaction and socialization" is a 100% valid reason to design a game in this way, and it is a genuinely effective way of getting players to rely on each other and help each other out.
Maybe you should drop the Skinner box comparison; I don't think you know what they are.
Shouldn't make assumptions about what people know and what they don't. Of course, the analogy works better if players get a bit of cheese, but I typed it out as 'get out' so I stuck with it.
My point is that player interactions do not equate to socialization. The OP is talking about being social. You are talking about relying or being dependent on other people, which in an MMO can happen nearly 100% with little social interaction.
Wanting older mechanics that force people to interact whether they want to or not is not increasing the socialization in MMORPG.
** edit **
Imagine the skinner boxes are tied together in a chain. You can either have the rules such that rats do not proceed from box 1 to box 2 with out somehow helping each other, or you can allow the rats to progress from box 1 to box 2 solo. I had to think about that for a couple minutes to get the 'get out of' to make sense.
I could just as easily say that mindless stream-of-consciousness tweets do not equate to socialization, which would mean in turn that communication tools modeled after Facebook/Twitter don't improve socialization. I mean, if I link the new belt that I'm going to craft and you "Like" it, is that really more sociable than coming with me to gather the materials and crafting the sub-components for me?
It's a game. It makes perfect sense that social participation naturally takes the form of DOING, not TYPING. In one of the rare games based on politics, then it might make more sense to naturally socialize by typing.
You're still way, way off on the Skinner boxes. If you tell people "to get out/get cheese, you have to work together", that's not a neutral stimulus. You're not conditioning them to have a specific response, you're telling them to have that response.
It's a game. It makes perfect sense that social participation naturally takes the form of DOING, not TYPING.
He wants those people to be friends, not co-workers. The whole point is that people were friendly, were actual "friends" "in the good old days", not worked together for the same goal for some time.
Accidentally, I've looked at the standard response: "why play mmorpgs if you don't want to interact with other players". I do want to interact with other players - compete with them, compare with them, etc. I just don't want to be friends with them. I have enough friends already.
Any socialization needs time. To socialize properly you need to spend lots and lots of time with people you want to socialize with.
Neither you nor they have that time. I have job, family, other interests. I can play, say, 1 hour a day two day a week. It is impossible to properly socialize with anyone with such time restraints. If I have 1 hour to do a quest, I can't spend half of it helping a guy I don't know to do the quest I've did already.
As for talking in groups, what do we talk about? The game? You don't like "you need to do this to get that sword" discussions, and what else to talk about there? Each other? I'm a builder from Latvia, you are a mom homeschooling your children from Nebraska, I don't care and don't want to hear about your brats or your bitchy neighbour and you don't want to hear about what a freaking moron was my last client or my other hobby of model building. So what's to talk about?
Obvious answer from you, OP, of course, will be "well don't play MY game which should be played the way I want it to be played, you are destroying MY genre with your completely imporper way of enjoying it so you have to go because me me ME!" That's actually pretty much the standard reply on any mmorpg-related opinion I post on this forum.
On which my answer would be "don't tell me what to do and I will not tell you where to go".
First you dont have clue what OP is talking about and your attitude is whats wrong with whole mmo community your totally missing the point here.
Even if i play for short while everyday i would never have such appraoch and attitude like you have when play ing a game.
I would be ALOT more social and dont judge people like that where they come from, plus the fact i barely come across people you tell real life storys like that you have with the nebraska women lol.
Your eather social if your play 1hour or 10hours a day or your anti social nomatter how long you play and thats main problem here majority dont have any social skills and sharing/helping is not what they have learned it seems in there childhood.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Yet WoW still holds the record for most subs. GUINESS BOOK world record. I play. I get along with people. But I'm not there to make friends. Its an online game. Just like in the real world, the fantasy world is no different. You're gonna have different personalities. I wouldn't expect a rogue to be very social if you're playing the actual role on an RP server. And even then, you have to deal with retards in RL. And some of those retards play MMOs. Honestly the community in a whole doesn't bother me one bit and does not have any effect on my playing experience. I get runs all the time in Rift and I don't even ask for it. I pretty much quest alone unless I absolutely need a group. But if I find someone useful and I get along with their personality enough to add them to my list, then it is what it is. But as of right now after 4 months, the only people on my list are people I know in RL.
You know, ever since I left EQ2 I haven't been in one really good guild. Guilds in these days fall completely in two categories: pro raiders with weekly schedules and chat channel-guild. The first sort I don't want to join, because I don't want into these pecking orders, where loot is given on rankings and schedules are mandatory like in a job! And the second, you know the sentece I get all the time? "Well sorry but I am busy doing my quests now."
I just played in a rather difficult and dangerous zone in LOTRO, Isengart. And lots of people all around doing the same quests. And do you think just ONE of them would react to a LFG call? No. Many even prefer apparently do die again and again over joining someone.
You see, I am usually a helpful guy in MMOs. When someone has some task yet I have not, I used to help and just run along. Or when someone was LFG and didn't get help for some time, I just help for the sake of. Or when someone is in danger, I run and help. I mean, I saw that as normal for many years. But the last 2+ years, this has totally vanished from games. Back when SWG and EQ2 were new that was common! When someone needed help, it was easy to get help, whether this person had the same quests or not! It was give and take! And people were actually TALKING. Now, it's hi and bye and IF you get a group, people fight alongside like silent robots!
And don't me even get started about the Teamspeak faschism! I am so sick and tired to get kicked from groups when I say I don't do TS. I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR YOU VOICE. Period. I mean, heck we did without TS in the old days against REALLY difficult mobs! In REALLY dangerous zones! People played UO and EQ years without any voiceover, just because they learned their class!
But what REALLY pisses me off like nothing else are these smartass "advisors"! People who will sent you tells about "how with THAT sword or THIS armour you totally suck!" Or how "this or that skills are TOTALLY bad", and sorry but that is the POX and BANE of WOW. No game forced this thrice be damned min-maxxing as much as WoW. Now you need to farm 2000 of these and 500 of them mobs, to get skill point X or faction gear Y. I am so tired of this bizarre sort of MMO design! Where have the times gone, when we just went off to adventure! When it was just we, some quested, looted or crafted gear and off you went!
Sigh. This entire genre and it's player so developed into something sick and anti-social. Its all no longer about exciting adventure, but stats and skills and grinding the right gear and demands and whatnot. This is just isn't they cooperative fun anymore, and all the wonder is replaced by the damn E-sports mentality.
/rant over
i'm with the OP on this one. ts is an immersion killer. i seldom join guilds these days for that reason. next they'll be wanting to videoconference while playing, just so they can see if i'm taking things seriously.
the last few years have driven me from being a social gamer to being a bit of a solo gamer. mainly because i'm tired enough of guild-related melodrama on my screen, without having it in my ears, too. listening to some arrogant pup spit orders and fight with arrogant pup number 2 over who's gonna be wearing the pants is just annoying. i'd rather they fight it out among themselves and get back to me with what's happening and who's left the guild so i know which one i'm splintering off into this week.
as for the min-max thing - man, i got enough of maths when i was at school. given the choice between awesome stats and awesome green glowy dagger of doom, i'll take the green. at the end of the day, i killed what i'm killing. so it took me another .05 seconds to kill it. big deal. that was .05 seconds MORE fun!
interestingly, the last guild i joined in WOW was a pvp guild which didn't use ts. i know, right! you're shocked. actually, we did damn well and i kind of enjoyed it. you set up your tactics. you get ready. get set. and you go out and kill other guys and win. the end.
i don't mind the e-sports mentality. i love a good pvp core to a game. but i still think small groups are more fun than big ones. and that's more the real problem. when you're having to move around 40 guys instead of 4, that's why you need ts, in my opinion. and that sucks the fun out real quick, because 40 guys have 40 different ideas half the time.
This is the reason im playing Vanguard atm. It has the best commuinity i have ever experienced! Might not be the biggest community, but everyone here are so nice and helpfull, the guild i am in has alot of casual people, some who do raiding too and the high levels always helps us lowbies with dungeons etc.
Should check it out if you want a game with good community! :>
Vanguard is a good game, but the months after launch left a VERY bad taste in my mouth. I've thought about going back, but with the game on life support, most of the Dev's re asigned or gone, and SOE allocating very few resources to the game, I can't really see the point. I suspect its not going to be that long before SOE cuts their losses and pulls the plug. Its too bad, as it had the potential to be a great game.
This is the reason im playing Vanguard atm. It has the best commuinity i have ever experienced! Might not be the biggest community, but everyone here are so nice and helpfull, the guild i am in has alot of casual people, some who do raiding too and the high levels always helps us lowbies with dungeons etc.
Should check it out if you want a game with good community! :>
Vanguard is a good game, but the months after launch left a VERY bad taste in my mouth. I've thought about going back, but with the game on life support, most of the Dev's re asigned or gone, and SOE allocating very few resources to the game, I can't really see the point. I suspect its not going to be that long before SOE cuts their losses and pulls the plug. Its too bad, as it had the potential to be a great game.
SOE owns it so it will most likely go F2P before shutdown. We will just have to wait and see.
I generally don't want to team with people unless I have to. I basically have one reason for this.
Many, MANY people feel that because they are interacting with other people online and have complete anonymity that it gives them the right to be complete assholes.
That about sums it up.
Nowhere have I found this more true than while playing LoL. I assume it is much the same with Dota or HoN. People are downright MEAN to others. They are super quick to point out the smallest mistakes and quick to gang up and point the finger at one person to divert attention from their own lackluster play. People swear at others. They belittle them. They make comments about their family. It's downright nasty at times. I only play the game because I enjoy it's pvp and playstyle.
I played WoW for a little over a year and got a horde rogue up to 80 and while that was much less painful than a moba, it wasn't without it's vocal detractors as well.
I really think it boils down to no accountability and no punishment for negative behavior in online games. In real life if you call some guy a fuckwit you're likely to get your face kicked in. In a game you can be a 90lbs weakling and talk a big game all you want with no fear of reprisal.
This is the nastier side of things, but I believes it's this anonymity and lack of reprisal/accountability that leads people to just be tards. Not everyone that comes off as a jerk in a game is a jerk 24/7, but with no repercussions there's nothing to hold them back from having an outburst. It would be like waiting in a long line and then just losing it and swearing at the top of your lungs. You just wouldn't do this if you are a mentally balanced/sane person in real life, but in a game people "lose it" all the time.
I don't want games to institute a "big brother" policy where all our actions are being monitored, but until there is some kind of fair and legit system in place in games to control public decency it'll continue to be the nasty cesspit it often is.
I had to create an account just to comment on this. I am a solo player. As a solo player, I understand that there are certain quests and content in MMORPGs that I will NEVER be able to complete or participate in.
I DO NOT expect others to adhere to my playstyle. I am happy letting the groupers group and the solos solo.
Why does everyone want to force everyone else into their style of play?
Why the attitude "If you want to play solo go play Console games"?
Truly, If I were a social entity, I wouldn't be locked in my parents basement(jk) playing computer games, now would I?
I mean seriously, you expect the most antisocial people(lets face it, most gamers are geeks, dorks, shut-ins and other generally antisocial, friendless types...most not all mind you) who are sequestered in their houses and bedrooms to want to be social?
It's like going to a monster-truck rally and complaining that no one play's chess.
So let me get this right: YOU don't want to be in voice communication, and everyone else is anti-social? Gotcha.
He and many others like him, including me, don't want to hear the prepubescent voices, or any voices with their annoying accents over the ambience of the game, and would rather COMMMUNICATE using text so the immersion is not ruined, I want to play the game, not hear your voice all night, I don't know you in person, and don't want to listen to you either . For some reason many TS (should be called Teen speak) users think you want to hear them vent frustration down the mic, it's a teenage boy disease.
Problem with joining a guild that insists on having teamspeak or ventrillo or whatever, is your not allowed to get a word in due to the same 2 -4 people speaking constantly and dont want to listen to anbody elses views or comments in-game. Those 2 -4 people are always right and everone else is wrong attitudes.
Problem with joining a guild that insists on having teamspeak or ventrillo or whatever, is your not allowed to get a word in due to the same 2 -4 people speaking constantly and dont want to listen to anbody elses views or comments in-game. Those 2 -4 people are always right and everone else is wrong attitudes.
You have the same issue with text chat. BTW at least on TS and Vent you can mute them if you get annoyed.
mmorpg's are not social anymore they are very competitive environments. when you are in a race with another player to kill a certain mob there is no time for talk, the other player becomes your competition or just merely in your way.
You know even though I don't play EQ any longer, many of the people I met playing EQ have become some of the greatest friends of my life.
We built a connection in Everquest that was so strong it transcended the game and became our reality.
We talk to each other almost daily on the phone, text and IM each other like teenagers, visit each other during vacations, buy birthday and christmas gifts for each other's kids. Hell I am even a Godmother X3.
We share each others lives, and personally I am a better person for it.
Bonds like this are unheard of in the new generation of mmo's, because that need for trust, and commitment are no longer there, that companionship and necessity of dedication no longer exsist.
I miss the days when guilds became families.
Never thought I'd ever say this I even miss the 4am phone calls from the young people calling for a shoulder to cry on because something went what in thier daily life and they needed advice and or just someone they trusted to talk to.
Seems like you just want people to drop what they're doing when you ask for help. May as well tell them what they're doing is not important but helping you is. We all have goals in a game and guilds are usually just a way to help achieve these goals. If someone isn't standing next to me I won't waste my time running around helping them. No one will help you if what you're doing doesn't benefit them.
People don't have conversations in-game anymore when they have a mic. - "Hey what's up?, How ya doing?" from total strangers will usually be ignored or answered with a common response. These players in a video game are not your friends so don't expect a conversation to appear out of thin air.
If you look closely, this post shows exactly whats wrong. Its this way of looking at life, thats partly to blame for this.
"No one will help you if what you are doing doesn´t benefit them"
I find that to be very negative, and yes alot of people think this way, but it is still so wrong, that the humanrace has sunk to a level where this way of thinking is the norm
"These players in videogames are not your friends" ? No but that doesnt mean i cant help them or expect help from them
Its exactly what is wrong with the world today, and yes I agree with the poster earlier, it is definately a symptom of a much larger issue.
Its just so damn cold.
It's the moral decay of society, if you are a student of history you call go back and look at the collapse of other societies and see this same behavior repeating itself over and over again as the collapse becomes inevitable.
We are the Greeks, and our time as an enlightened society is at its end.
Just look at the comment above this one. "I, me, I, you are what's wrong..." I rest my case.
I'm here to play the game. To compete, cooperate and compare. No to be your friend.
I proof my point.
CASE CLOSED!
Exactly the problem. When EQ was around, everyone and their cousin wasn't playing. It was a solid group of like-minded people getting away from everyone else (much like the Internet used to be). When every tom-dick-and-harry showed up, well, it wasn't an escape to a place with like minded people. Now all the asshats you left back in meat space were there bitching why the MMO wasn't more like Madden or Gears of Boredom...
We are the Greeks, and our time as an enlightened society is at its end.
Ah yes, those miserable Athenian teens brought the whole culture down.
Wait a minute, no they didn't. That was the Roman-Syrian war.
Oh well, it sure sounded good.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think the equation is close. However I wouldnt start it with a normal person.
It might go something like, " Dickwad + anonymity+ audience = spreading dickwad behavior to others who see this as an example of normal internet behavior also = more Dickwads "
Which has me long worried that anti social internet behavior could spread to encompass real life. Take some kid who plays on the net or messes around a lot. He's a good kid. But soon others like him are acting like little ***** so he thinks this is normal and begins to do it. No sooner than that, he goes ahead and carries this attitude into the real world but to a lesser degree.
Thus producing an entire generation of......"dickwads". Public or private this is what they've seen as an example of normal peer behavior. In real life someone who is a big jerk sort of gets frowned on. His voice is obnoxious, his behavior is repulsive but you notice these things right away by noticing the body language, voice, face tells, etc. Humans are very good at that. But on the internet you might think some jerk is a cool dude, especially if you are young. You cant see his face, hear his voice, or read his body language.
And before you know it? Little kids are acting like "Dickwads". Thus? The anonymity of the internet destroys human society as we know it, and we're surrounded by cocky little jerks.
Have a nice day. : P
It starts with a normal person. There have been studies on normal, healthy people. When you change the environment that people operate in, their behavior changes. I'm sure you've heard about the experiment done in the early 70's (I could have the decade off) where they set college students up as either prison guards or prisoners. It took about 24 hours before the 'guards' were acting like guards and the 'prisoners' were acting like prisoners. Except it was worse than a real prison. The prisoners were denied bathroom breaks, had to walk around with bags on their heads unable to see, etc. This took 24 hours. Now imagine months spent in front of a computer with no social queues from the people 'around' you at all.
Now everyone doesn't turn into a raging lunatic on the internet, but everyone's behavior changes. Everyone doesn't turn into a raging lunatic in mmorpg, but everyone's behavior changes because the environment they are operating in changes. That chart is probably more accurate than not.
** edit ** The inverse of that equation is probably true too. You take the raging lunatic, remove anonymity and add all the social queues back and you end up with a relatively normal person. I'm sure that over time being the raging lunatic changes you though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I find it funny just because you someone does not want to be in vent/ts does not mean they are anti-social in the least. I was in a guild for close to years witih several friends, we had this one character who would joke, chat, give advice and so much more, but never came into vent/ts ever he talked more then anyone in the guild (even talking and socializing more then several guildmates combined). THat is being social it is not being in a program to talk to people as you play with your voice, as much as it is about intereacting with the people h you can, If people wish to stay out of the vent/ts then they should be able to though htey should also not take it persanaly when they are not talked to by those inside it. When i was a raid lead it was mandatory for everyone to check cchat for thigns, and the lead of a raid to make sure they were repying to people both in vent/ts as well as chat. Also for the most part anti-socail is not being quite or distant, as much as it is tearing into to people who try and talk to you or socailize with you, people who prefer their own company are not trully anti-socail; I am extremely picky with who i play as well as chat with overall, as such i will /ignore or just blow off people that are not up to my personal standards. This is not their fault in the least, while also it is not mine either for being picky since the better you choose your friends the better your relationships are. Also the standard as well as type of player in mmos has drop rather sharply, which is whhy many stick to their good group of friends to socailize with in game, it is so easy to see ingame why people stay away from other people they do not know even in guilds.
Over the years i have played mmo i have meet many friends, as well as have had several relationship that came out of these games. I personally see it is being that the gamers have become much more guarded with their interactions in mmos largely, limiting how they talk or hwo long they talk, because largely if you do not do thigns hwo certain people do, or you play differently then others you get laughed at or even harassed for it. IS it wrong for people to guard their own enjoyment of a game they enjoy from being impeaded or even ruined, because of one person who chooses to believe that they are so elite that they can tell everyone hwo to play regardless of how myuch enjoyment that person is having? If you want to be socail that is fine, but execpting other players to want to socailizes with you regardless of their own desires is stupid as well as immature. I mean it is like being in kiddengaurden and getting mad because joe won't talk to you even though he is talking to everyone else in the class, and then telling the teacher about it thinking she/he could change his mind abotu wanting to talk to you.
Exactly the problem. When EQ was around, everyone and their cousin wasn't playing. It was a solid group of like-minded people getting away from everyone else (much like the Internet used to be). When every tom-dick-and-harry showed up, well, it wasn't an escape to a place with like minded people. Now all the asshats you left back in meat space were there bitching why the MMO wasn't more like Madden or Gears of Boredom...
That's the point I've made many times in the past. In the old days, MMOs, and indeed the Internet, appealed to a single demographic. It was the tech geeks who largely had no other social outlet. It's no wonder people thought these were great social games, virtually everyone who played had a single outlook on life. Today though, when everyone has access and everyone is playing, it isn't a single community with a single view, it's dozens or hundreds of communities with dozens or hundreds of views and the geek community simply isn't well represented anymore.
The old days are gone, they are never coming back and it's time people grew up and dealt with it.
You want a fix in MMOs. Invite only, private servers. There is a reason there are Muds still around with 800+ players after 15 years. They are invite only so you only get like-minded people that "get it". Shit there are counter strike servers (as in CS1) that are still packed every hour of the day. They are also password protected for a reason.
Fact: You can make some people happy some of the time, but you can make everyone happy all the time.
So, sort out the some people into smaller groups, invite only, so they get along and grow. MMO developers mentality is dump everyone in one room where they won't get along, then give them instances so they can get away from everyone else. A chimp can see how that social interaction would play out.
I'll help the industry, every time you have a conversation about customersplayers instead of saying MMO or Game say RESTURANT and tell me if your logic still works.
Case in point:
Bob comes into the RESTURANT and starts being a dick to all the other customers. What do you do?:
A: Allow Bob to stay because he is a paying customer and tell the customers to just /ignore him.
B: Warn Bob not to be a dick to the other customers but don't do anything.
C: Tell all the customers that are not being dicks that they have to put with Bob because he is a paying customer
Throw Bob out and ban him from sitting at a particular booth
E: Throw Bob out and tell he can never come back to the resturant
F: Allow Bob to be a dick, try to scam the other customers, and tell the customers that the Resturant is a sandbox environment and they should grow a thicker skin.
Oddly in the MMO world everything is an option except for E. But, if we frame it as a RESTURANT how can any saine person think anything but 'E' is an option?!
By framing and MMO discussion in the context of any other service orientated business, most arguments are exposed as plain stupid. I am partial to resturants for analogy purposes. FROM THIS DAY FORWARD ANY DISUCSSION OF MMO ETHICS SHALL BE FRAMED IN THE CONTEXT OF A RESTURANT FOR CLARITY, LOGIC, AND TO FURTHER THE ART OF COMMON SENSE!
Comments
Plus the fact that they also dont wanne do anything anymore they call these days almost everything timesink they dont want travel 5 min or they SCREAM/WHINE on forums or ingame bah:( no investment "I WANT IT NOW OR ILL QUIT", result itemshops ezmode gameplay and be a uber hero in week.
Free two play games didn't help eather they just make it all worse:(
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Here is the point of view of solo-player.
Any socialization needs time. To socialize properly you need to spend lots and lots of time with people you want to socialize with.
Neither you nor they have that time. I have job, family, other interests. I can play, say, 1 hour a day two day a week. It is impossible to properly socialize with anyone with such time restraints. If I have 1 hour to do a quest, I can't spend half of it helping a guy I don't know to do the quest I've did already.
As for talking in groups, what do we talk about? The game? You don't like "you need to do this to get that sword" discussions, and what else to talk about there? Each other? I'm a builder from Latvia, you are a mom homeschooling your children from Nebraska, I don't care and don't want to hear about your brats or your bitchy neighbour and you don't want to hear about what a freaking moron was my last client or my other hobby of model building. So what's to talk about?
Obvious answer from you, OP, of course, will be "well don't play MY game which should be played the way I want it to be played, you are destroying MY genre with your completely imporper way of enjoying it so you have to go because me me ME!" That's actually pretty much the standard reply on any mmorpg-related opinion I post on this forum.
On which my answer would be "don't tell me what to do and I will not tell you where to go".
Ive np with people wanne play solo and why not. These days its just that most solo players dont talk dont help and wanne do game 100% solo no sharing at all.
Ive played also manytimes solo but i always talk help and support if people ask worked for me perfectly perfectly i still interact with community. I was a vetran in Darkfall and help alot of new players give then stuff and help them in PvP or PvE.
Forced grouping in some games or you get nowhere im also agains i wont play those games eather.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
I could just as easily say that mindless stream-of-consciousness tweets do not equate to socialization, which would mean in turn that communication tools modeled after Facebook/Twitter don't improve socialization. I mean, if I link the new belt that I'm going to craft and you "Like" it, is that really more sociable than coming with me to gather the materials and crafting the sub-components for me?
It's a game. It makes perfect sense that social participation naturally takes the form of DOING, not TYPING. In one of the rare games based on politics, then it might make more sense to naturally socialize by typing.
You're still way, way off on the Skinner boxes. If you tell people "to get out/get cheese, you have to work together", that's not a neutral stimulus. You're not conditioning them to have a specific response, you're telling them to have that response.
He wants those people to be friends, not co-workers. The whole point is that people were friendly, were actual "friends" "in the good old days", not worked together for the same goal for some time.
Accidentally, I've looked at the standard response: "why play mmorpgs if you don't want to interact with other players". I do want to interact with other players - compete with them, compare with them, etc. I just don't want to be friends with them. I have enough friends already.
First you dont have clue what OP is talking about and your attitude is whats wrong with whole mmo community your totally missing the point here.
Even if i play for short while everyday i would never have such appraoch and attitude like you have when play ing a game.
I would be ALOT more social and dont judge people like that where they come from, plus the fact i barely come across people you tell real life storys like that you have with the nebraska women lol.
Your eather social if your play 1hour or 10hours a day or your anti social nomatter how long you play and thats main problem here majority dont have any social skills and sharing/helping is not what they have learned it seems in there childhood.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Yet another reason why WoW was bad for the MMORPG genre.
My gaming blog
Yet WoW still holds the record for most subs. GUINESS BOOK world record. I play. I get along with people. But I'm not there to make friends. Its an online game. Just like in the real world, the fantasy world is no different. You're gonna have different personalities. I wouldn't expect a rogue to be very social if you're playing the actual role on an RP server. And even then, you have to deal with retards in RL. And some of those retards play MMOs. Honestly the community in a whole doesn't bother me one bit and does not have any effect on my playing experience. I get runs all the time in Rift and I don't even ask for it. I pretty much quest alone unless I absolutely need a group. But if I find someone useful and I get along with their personality enough to add them to my list, then it is what it is. But as of right now after 4 months, the only people on my list are people I know in RL.
Getting too old for this $&17!
i'm with the OP on this one. ts is an immersion killer. i seldom join guilds these days for that reason. next they'll be wanting to videoconference while playing, just so they can see if i'm taking things seriously.
the last few years have driven me from being a social gamer to being a bit of a solo gamer. mainly because i'm tired enough of guild-related melodrama on my screen, without having it in my ears, too. listening to some arrogant pup spit orders and fight with arrogant pup number 2 over who's gonna be wearing the pants is just annoying. i'd rather they fight it out among themselves and get back to me with what's happening and who's left the guild so i know which one i'm splintering off into this week.
as for the min-max thing - man, i got enough of maths when i was at school. given the choice between awesome stats and awesome green glowy dagger of doom, i'll take the green. at the end of the day, i killed what i'm killing. so it took me another .05 seconds to kill it. big deal. that was .05 seconds MORE fun!
interestingly, the last guild i joined in WOW was a pvp guild which didn't use ts. i know, right! you're shocked. actually, we did damn well and i kind of enjoyed it. you set up your tactics. you get ready. get set. and you go out and kill other guys and win. the end.
i don't mind the e-sports mentality. i love a good pvp core to a game. but i still think small groups are more fun than big ones. and that's more the real problem. when you're having to move around 40 guys instead of 4, that's why you need ts, in my opinion. and that sucks the fun out real quick, because 40 guys have 40 different ideas half the time.
Vanguard is a good game, but the months after launch left a VERY bad taste in my mouth. I've thought about going back, but with the game on life support, most of the Dev's re asigned or gone, and SOE allocating very few resources to the game, I can't really see the point. I suspect its not going to be that long before SOE cuts their losses and pulls the plug. Its too bad, as it had the potential to be a great game.
SOE owns it so it will most likely go F2P before shutdown. We will just have to wait and see.
I generally don't want to team with people unless I have to. I basically have one reason for this.
Many, MANY people feel that because they are interacting with other people online and have complete anonymity that it gives them the right to be complete assholes.
That about sums it up.
Nowhere have I found this more true than while playing LoL. I assume it is much the same with Dota or HoN. People are downright MEAN to others. They are super quick to point out the smallest mistakes and quick to gang up and point the finger at one person to divert attention from their own lackluster play. People swear at others. They belittle them. They make comments about their family. It's downright nasty at times. I only play the game because I enjoy it's pvp and playstyle.
I played WoW for a little over a year and got a horde rogue up to 80 and while that was much less painful than a moba, it wasn't without it's vocal detractors as well.
I really think it boils down to no accountability and no punishment for negative behavior in online games. In real life if you call some guy a fuckwit you're likely to get your face kicked in. In a game you can be a 90lbs weakling and talk a big game all you want with no fear of reprisal.
This is the nastier side of things, but I believes it's this anonymity and lack of reprisal/accountability that leads people to just be tards. Not everyone that comes off as a jerk in a game is a jerk 24/7, but with no repercussions there's nothing to hold them back from having an outburst. It would be like waiting in a long line and then just losing it and swearing at the top of your lungs. You just wouldn't do this if you are a mentally balanced/sane person in real life, but in a game people "lose it" all the time.
I don't want games to institute a "big brother" policy where all our actions are being monitored, but until there is some kind of fair and legit system in place in games to control public decency it'll continue to be the nasty cesspit it often is.
I had to create an account just to comment on this. I am a solo player. As a solo player, I understand that there are certain quests and content in MMORPGs that I will NEVER be able to complete or participate in.
I DO NOT expect others to adhere to my playstyle. I am happy letting the groupers group and the solos solo.
Why does everyone want to force everyone else into their style of play?
Why the attitude "If you want to play solo go play Console games"?
Truly, If I were a social entity, I wouldn't be locked in my parents basement(jk) playing computer games, now would I?
I mean seriously, you expect the most antisocial people(lets face it, most gamers are geeks, dorks, shut-ins and other generally antisocial, friendless types...most not all mind you) who are sequestered in their houses and bedrooms to want to be social?
It's like going to a monster-truck rally and complaining that no one play's chess.
Keith WP
Bitter Since 1994
He and many others like him, including me, don't want to hear the prepubescent voices, or any voices with their annoying accents over the ambience of the game, and would rather COMMMUNICATE using text so the immersion is not ruined, I want to play the game, not hear your voice all night, I don't know you in person, and don't want to listen to you either . For some reason many TS (should be called Teen speak) users think you want to hear them vent frustration down the mic, it's a teenage boy disease.
Problem with joining a guild that insists on having teamspeak or ventrillo or whatever, is your not allowed to get a word in due to the same 2 -4 people speaking constantly and dont want to listen to anbody elses views or comments in-game. Those 2 -4 people are always right and everone else is wrong attitudes.
You have the same issue with text chat. BTW at least on TS and Vent you can mute them if you get annoyed.
mmorpg's are not social anymore they are very competitive environments. when you are in a race with another player to kill a certain mob there is no time for talk, the other player becomes your competition or just merely in your way.
You know even though I don't play EQ any longer, many of the people I met playing EQ have become some of the greatest friends of my life.
We built a connection in Everquest that was so strong it transcended the game and became our reality.
We talk to each other almost daily on the phone, text and IM each other like teenagers, visit each other during vacations, buy birthday and christmas gifts for each other's kids. Hell I am even a Godmother X3.
We share each others lives, and personally I am a better person for it.
Bonds like this are unheard of in the new generation of mmo's, because that need for trust, and commitment are no longer there, that companionship and necessity of dedication no longer exsist.
I miss the days when guilds became families.
Never thought I'd ever say this I even miss the 4am phone calls from the young people calling for a shoulder to cry on because something went what in thier daily life and they needed advice and or just someone they trusted to talk to.
It's the moral decay of society, if you are a student of history you call go back and look at the collapse of other societies and see this same behavior repeating itself over and over again as the collapse becomes inevitable.
We are the Greeks, and our time as an enlightened society is at its end.
Exactly the problem. When EQ was around, everyone and their cousin wasn't playing. It was a solid group of like-minded people getting away from everyone else (much like the Internet used to be). When every tom-dick-and-harry showed up, well, it wasn't an escape to a place with like minded people. Now all the asshats you left back in meat space were there bitching why the MMO wasn't more like Madden or Gears of Boredom...
Ah yes, those miserable Athenian teens brought the whole culture down.
Wait a minute, no they didn't. That was the Roman-Syrian war.
Oh well, it sure sounded good.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It starts with a normal person. There have been studies on normal, healthy people. When you change the environment that people operate in, their behavior changes. I'm sure you've heard about the experiment done in the early 70's (I could have the decade off) where they set college students up as either prison guards or prisoners. It took about 24 hours before the 'guards' were acting like guards and the 'prisoners' were acting like prisoners. Except it was worse than a real prison. The prisoners were denied bathroom breaks, had to walk around with bags on their heads unable to see, etc. This took 24 hours. Now imagine months spent in front of a computer with no social queues from the people 'around' you at all.
Now everyone doesn't turn into a raging lunatic on the internet, but everyone's behavior changes. Everyone doesn't turn into a raging lunatic in mmorpg, but everyone's behavior changes because the environment they are operating in changes. That chart is probably more accurate than not.
** edit **
The inverse of that equation is probably true too. You take the raging lunatic, remove anonymity and add all the social queues back and you end up with a relatively normal person. I'm sure that over time being the raging lunatic changes you though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I find it funny just because you someone does not want to be in vent/ts does not mean they are anti-social in the least. I was in a guild for close to years witih several friends, we had this one character who would joke, chat, give advice and so much more, but never came into vent/ts ever he talked more then anyone in the guild (even talking and socializing more then several guildmates combined). THat is being social it is not being in a program to talk to people as you play with your voice, as much as it is about intereacting with the people h you can, If people wish to stay out of the vent/ts then they should be able to though htey should also not take it persanaly when they are not talked to by those inside it. When i was a raid lead it was mandatory for everyone to check cchat for thigns, and the lead of a raid to make sure they were repying to people both in vent/ts as well as chat. Also for the most part anti-socail is not being quite or distant, as much as it is tearing into to people who try and talk to you or socailize with you, people who prefer their own company are not trully anti-socail; I am extremely picky with who i play as well as chat with overall, as such i will /ignore or just blow off people that are not up to my personal standards. This is not their fault in the least, while also it is not mine either for being picky since the better you choose your friends the better your relationships are. Also the standard as well as type of player in mmos has drop rather sharply, which is whhy many stick to their good group of friends to socailize with in game, it is so easy to see ingame why people stay away from other people they do not know even in guilds.
Over the years i have played mmo i have meet many friends, as well as have had several relationship that came out of these games. I personally see it is being that the gamers have become much more guarded with their interactions in mmos largely, limiting how they talk or hwo long they talk, because largely if you do not do thigns hwo certain people do, or you play differently then others you get laughed at or even harassed for it. IS it wrong for people to guard their own enjoyment of a game they enjoy from being impeaded or even ruined, because of one person who chooses to believe that they are so elite that they can tell everyone hwo to play regardless of how myuch enjoyment that person is having? If you want to be socail that is fine, but execpting other players to want to socailizes with you regardless of their own desires is stupid as well as immature. I mean it is like being in kiddengaurden and getting mad because joe won't talk to you even though he is talking to everyone else in the class, and then telling the teacher about it thinking she/he could change his mind abotu wanting to talk to you.
That's the point I've made many times in the past. In the old days, MMOs, and indeed the Internet, appealed to a single demographic. It was the tech geeks who largely had no other social outlet. It's no wonder people thought these were great social games, virtually everyone who played had a single outlook on life. Today though, when everyone has access and everyone is playing, it isn't a single community with a single view, it's dozens or hundreds of communities with dozens or hundreds of views and the geek community simply isn't well represented anymore.
The old days are gone, they are never coming back and it's time people grew up and dealt with it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Hope: None
You want a fix in MMOs. Invite only, private servers. There is a reason there are Muds still around with 800+ players after 15 years. They are invite only so you only get like-minded people that "get it". Shit there are counter strike servers (as in CS1) that are still packed every hour of the day. They are also password protected for a reason.
Fact: You can make some people happy some of the time, but you can make everyone happy all the time.
So, sort out the some people into smaller groups, invite only, so they get along and grow. MMO developers mentality is dump everyone in one room where they won't get along, then give them instances so they can get away from everyone else. A chimp can see how that social interaction would play out.
I'll help the industry, every time you have a conversation about customersplayers instead of saying MMO or Game say RESTURANT and tell me if your logic still works.
Case in point:
Bob comes into the RESTURANT and starts being a dick to all the other customers. What do you do?:
A: Allow Bob to stay because he is a paying customer and tell the customers to just /ignore him.
B: Warn Bob not to be a dick to the other customers but don't do anything.
C: Tell all the customers that are not being dicks that they have to put with Bob because he is a paying customer
E: Throw Bob out and tell he can never come back to the resturant
F: Allow Bob to be a dick, try to scam the other customers, and tell the customers that the Resturant is a sandbox environment and they should grow a thicker skin.
Oddly in the MMO world everything is an option except for E. But, if we frame it as a RESTURANT how can any saine person think anything but 'E' is an option?!
By framing and MMO discussion in the context of any other service orientated business, most arguments are exposed as plain stupid. I am partial to resturants for analogy purposes. FROM THIS DAY FORWARD ANY DISUCSSION OF MMO ETHICS SHALL BE FRAMED IN THE CONTEXT OF A RESTURANT FOR CLARITY, LOGIC, AND TO FURTHER THE ART OF COMMON SENSE!