There are raids. Seen how high those dynamic events scale up to? Yeah..some can scale up to extremely high 60+ numbers o.o If those arent raids well...Idk what is.
You just said it! They're dynamic events. However, my pedantry aside, if you wanted to call them raids, it wouldn't really matter to me, but when most people refer to raids, they are specifically talking about the way most MMOs currently out define the term. ANet even states there won't be raids "in the traditional sense". Besides, I always pictured a raid as you know.. a raid on something.. attacking a castle etc. In GW2 it's almost safe to say most of the "raids" come to you.
Kind of takes the control freaks out of it right? The automaton sheeple who feel they have no purpose unless some control freak tells them what time, place, and who does what just to give them some purpose. I mean really, whoever came up with, you need to raid to get the gear you need to go raid with. Some evil twisted sociopath living in his mother basement?
That's why they aren't happy with DE, it take all the control and authoratative perks that come with raids. Like I said, Lord of the Flies live.
Try to understand this from a person who walks into this from a totally ignorant perspective, the first time you get exposed to it, you sit there open jawed and shocked at the sheer illogical nature to it. Raiding, like the holy trinity, are bizarre concepts and quite artificially controlling things.
Its not just illogical it's not even a mainstay on many mmorpgs, what happens is when a popular game is on the verge of being released Raiders typically Raid the games forums in some hope of scaring the games devs into subjugating everyone else by totally redoing the game and adding in Raid looting. Truthfully Raid centric games have only been able to hold about the same amount of subs than any other mmo can. EVE online has more subs than every WOW clone on the market right now and it has no raiding. Its not that in the beginning it wasnt an ok concept its just been done to death and it only appeals to a vocal minority of players. I never understood it myself it appeals to a group of players who hate competition from other players and generally hate pvp, they dont want other people they cant control the situation with to be near them. They want to be rewarded for playing a raid boss mini game. Which takes place in an instance impervious to outside interference. AION allows interference and they HATE it, they cannot stand it that they can be killed by other players while doing pve. I say that even if GW2 proposed this type of system they would appose it, because its not REALLY about player preference its about control over other people playstyle preference. Your average raiders worst nightmare is being stalked by a group of really good pvpers while trying to kill a scripted monster, because the reality is they might kill the 30 foot raid boss, but the players are going to slaughter them and steal their treasure.
The reason that people try to have a raiding system is because they are still stuck in the typical WoW mentality and look for the class specific organized groups which still goes back to what Arenanet is trying to be getting rid of the Trinity class system. i agree that if everyone really teamed up on the dynamic events you pretty much have your raid taken care of as the scaleability would be insane. People need to stop suggesting retarted crap to have a company make another WoW clone when WoW it self is imploding as you can only change the same thing so many times. In reference to WoW you can take a terd and polish it soo many times but it is still a turd in the end.
If you are a raider, It's the fight that matters. The loot is just a nice "extra".
+1 to this. i'd delete my gear if it would help get a new boss down. it's all about the kill.
I feel the same way, but had a damned hard time finding like minded people. Seemed like all anyone cared about was the little birthday presents *gollum* that dropped at the end. I think moving the raid-scale problems out into the open world where they're sort of in your face until you make them go away will change that some.
Charr: Outta my way. Human: What's your problem? Charr: Your thin skin.
For me, the raiding has always been about challenge and beating the content. In most themepark MMOs, the gear is what makes it possible. Raiding is like belonging to a sport club. It requires level of organisation and dedication that some people do not find attractive. I think people make the "grinding gear" a bigger issue that it really is. Most people like to get shinies, but in good guilds it is not the goal or the purpose of raiding.
However, a game does not have to have raiding as a gameplay feature, but it should have something that requires both organisation and dedication.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
For me, the raiding has always been about challenge and beating the content. In most themepark MMOs, the gear is what makes it possible. Raiding is like belonging to a sport club. It requires level of organisation and dedication that some people do not find attractive. I think people make the "grinding gear" a bigger issue that it really is. Most people like to get shinies, but in good guilds it is not the goal or the purpose of raiding.
However, a game does not have to have raiding as a gameplay feature, but it should have something that requires both organisation and dedication.
Nine out of ten Raiders who say they like the Challenge of raids, never want to participate in competitive pvp. I think the difficulty of Raids is overblown, its a playstyle thats it, I have met countless Top gear score Raiders that I could mop the floor with in pvp with a basic pvp set. Because against players you cant stand in one spot and spam you highest DPS rotation. RAIDing is about time investment and having a large guild with recourses. Most raiders abhor in game events, world pvp, or anything that requires them to be at the mercy of the environment around them. Its a diseased playstyle that turns MMORPGS into 10 man lan parties and a chat room.
For me, the raiding has always been about challenge and beating the content. In most themepark MMOs, the gear is what makes it possible. Raiding is like belonging to a sport club. It requires level of organisation and dedication that some people do not find attractive. I think people make the "grinding gear" a bigger issue that it really is. Most people like to get shinies, but in good guilds it is not the goal or the purpose of raiding.
However, a game does not have to have raiding as a gameplay feature, but it should have something that requires both organisation and dedication.
Nine out of ten Raiders who say they like the Challenge of raids, never want to participate in competitive pvp. I think the difficulty of Raids is overblown, its a playstyle thats it, I have met countless Top gear score Raiders that I could mop the floor with in pvp with a basic pvp set. Because against players you cant stand in one spot and spam you highest DPS rotation. RAIDing is about time investment and having a large guild with recourses. Most raiders abhor in game events, world pvp, or anything that requires them to be at the mercy of the environment around them. Its a diseased playstyle that turns MMORPGS into 10 man lan parties and a chat room.
that's the bottom line, to me. beating on mobs is far too simple. as you said, you can just stand there and faceroll. the pace of pvp is much harder and faster and i've always wished that element could be brought into pve. i didn't play lotr, but wasn't there a gimmick of someone being able to control the boss? or the monsters? that would be a pretty cool addition, i think. getting a bit more of a challenge into those bosses by making them more unpredictable and more prone to responding to what they're facing. like, oh, i don't know, the UBER boss they're supposed to be?
i find it disappointing when the lore of the game builds up a boss to insane levels, and all they do is whomp you like an 80s platformer.
i'm not saying pvp is necessarily "better" but there's an element of challenge which comes from not knowing what the other player will bring to the party that's missing from pve. i really think the devs need to mix it up a bit more in the dungeon department. give some of us credit for wanting it to REALLY be hard and REALLY be challenging by not KNOWING what to expect and actually responding to what's thrown at us. to me, that would be awesome. i always envy the first guys to get into a dungeon. those who don't know what's in there, what's around the corner. that must feel awesome.
after that, though, with everyone forced to gear up and "know" and "learn" "the fight", it's just boring.
For me, the raiding has always been about challenge and beating the content. In most themepark MMOs, the gear is what makes it possible. Raiding is like belonging to a sport club. It requires level of organisation and dedication that some people do not find attractive. I think people make the "grinding gear" a bigger issue that it really is. Most people like to get shinies, but in good guilds it is not the goal or the purpose of raiding.
However, a game does not have to have raiding as a gameplay feature, but it should have something that requires both organisation and dedication.
Nine out of ten Raiders who say they like the Challenge of raids, never want to participate in competitive pvp. I think the difficulty of Raids is overblown, its a playstyle thats it, I have met countless Top gear score Raiders that I could mop the floor with in pvp with a basic pvp set. Because against players you cant stand in one spot and spam you highest DPS rotation. RAIDing is about time investment and having a large guild with recourses. Most raiders abhor in game events, world pvp, or anything that requires them to be at the mercy of the environment around them. Its a diseased playstyle that turns MMORPGS into 10 man lan parties and a chat room.
that's the bottom line, to me. beating on mobs is far too simple. as you said, you can just stand there and faceroll. the pace of pvp is much harder and faster and i've always wished that element could be brought into pve. i didn't play lotr, but wasn't there a gimmick of someone being able to control the boss? or the monsters? that would be a pretty cool addition, i think. getting a bit more of a challenge into those bosses by making them more unpredictable and more prone to responding to what they're facing. like, oh, i don't know, the UBER boss they're supposed to be?
i find it disappointing when the lore of the game builds up a boss to insane levels, and all they do is whomp you like an 80s platformer.
i'm not saying pvp is necessarily "better" but there's an element of challenge which comes from not knowing what the other player will bring to the party that's missing from pve. i really think the devs need to mix it up a bit more in the dungeon department. give some of us credit for wanting it to REALLY be hard and REALLY be challenging by not KNOWING what to expect and actually responding to what's thrown at us. to me, that would be awesome. i always envy the first guys to get into a dungeon. those who don't know what's in there, what's around the corner. that must feel awesome.
after that, though, with everyone forced to gear up and "know" and "learn" "the fight", it's just boring.
The amount of teamwork required to get things done in PvE groups of 25+ groups is insane. If one person makes a mistake you have a high chance of getting the entire group killed (talking about high end PvE here). PvPers often think a little to lighheaded about the top PvE stuff. Standing in 1 place the entire fight and rolling through you highest DPS rotation is something that almost never happens in top content. Most boss fights 5+- players get a very skill depended job while the other 20 players can do the fight with less important jobs. This results that not everyone needs to be of a high personal skill.
In PvP is slightly different since the groups are smaller ( even worse in 1v1 ). Because the groups are small everyone needs to be able to push things to the fullest. That being said in most (not all) you use the same basic tactics vs certain combs. to counter them. The biggest difference is ofc that PvP is always unpredictable. So the reaction time needs to be higher in PvP.
From what i've seen in the various MMO's i've played is that both side requires teamwork and strategy's and both sides needs some solid skilled players to get the job done.
Same can be said about PvP. Teamwork is usually between smaller groups ( 3vs3 for example ).
Ugh... is no one making the connection between an absence of large raids and the death of the trinity? Look at what raids are (and I'll use WoW, being familiar with them...), they're large, scripted encounters built around the trinity. It's become so bad that prior to new raids being released the top PvP guilds are allowed to beta them. They're handed the script on how to beat the fight, they practice it in beta, create "how to beat this fight" videos, then race each other to be the first when it goes live while everyone watches the videos and tries to learn how to do the same dance the top guilds have already learned. It's a dance you have to learn to get the loot that lets you go to the next dance. Even 10 man raids are what... two tanks, two or three healers depending, and the rest DPS. Primary tank on the boss, secondary tank on any mobs that show up, or grabbing the slimes, or taunting off the boss when some silly mechanic is about to blow the primary tank up, etc. Primary healer on the main tank, secondary healer on the secondary tank and possibly spot healing the dps. DPS stand there, burn the boss, at this scripted phase everyone moves here or there, changes targets to burn them down, don't stand in the fire, return to the boss.
These types of raids, the types the MMO community has become used to, pretty well can't exist in GW2 due to the lack of a trinity and the inability to create a scripted type of event. You'll have bosses and mobs with their attacks and abilities, but with every profession being equally viable there will be countless ways to win every fight. No one can play a single role in this game... everyone is their own healer and contributes to controlling and damaging the enemy in their own ways. Teamwork becomes much more important in GW2 dungeons than in a WoW-style raid. You'll have to know your profession and your abilities rather than know your rotation. Keeping them at five people will allow for better, more cohesive teamwork and interactions than you'd have in larger, more chaotic battles.
Not to say that once we're more adept at this new style of combat we won't see larger things work their way in... hell, with large DEs we'll be able to join and experience real chaos in action. But WoW style raids... without the trinity and as a result without the ability to create set scripts to follow you simply can't have them in GW2. Different paradigm, different experiences.
After his video on Guild Wars 2's lack of a Dedicated Healer and it's lack of a Subscription fee. Youtube user WoodenPotatoes has made yet another enlightening video, on the game's lack of Raids.
is politics now joined into trying to ruining games? LOL. you are pathetic.
If it is fun and they don't think they get enough tax money on it they will try to ruin it. That is how politicians work.
Ok..I thoguht it was a troll but now I don't know what to think about this cartoon, nor about the person putting it as his signature. :P
I'm surprised you lack the sense of humour to get the joke in my sig pic and thus proceeded to insult me. Perhaps you'll understand this one, if not then you might as well just leave the forums before you rage on another innocent.
I can live without raids, no problem. I like the general concept of a bunch of people getting together to beat a really big monster, but the logistics of actually doing it are horrible. I suppose the original incarnations were fun, more like the world events and world bosses in Rift, but the final evolution of having damage meters and raids tuned to account for damage meters and mods that tell you what to do is just not fun.
So, no holy trinity? No raids? Excellent!
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
After his video on Guild Wars 2's lack of a Dedicated Healer and it's lack of a Subscription fee. Youtube user WoodenPotatoes has made yet another enlightening video, on the game's lack of Raids.
Just watched the dedicated healer video AWESOME, that he's describing what's happening in games like WoW RIGHT NOW people just standing around in cities waiting on queues because there aren't enough healers because we are all fixed into this niche and when people stopped playing healers en masse like they did when they nerfed healers at the beginning of Cata it was a huge problem That's why right now it takes 30 minutes to get into a dungeon as a dps because there is such a huge shortage. GW2 will allow you to switch weapons mid fight and change your role just like that giving people more freedom by removing the trinity requirement people will be free to do whatever they want in dungeons.
Just finished the Sub Fee video LOVE this guy! OMG he's basically saying EVERYTHING i've been saying for a year now about why Subs are not necessary to run an MMO which is another reason why i love Anet so much because of their beliefs about the mmo sub. Times have changed sub costs are not necessary they are just fluff for the profit line and every game out there is finally starting to change to a model of using a store. It's happening folks and it's going to change some more not just because of the economy but also because of the players. Aren't you tired of not being able to login the game you like where some of your friends are just to say hi how are you what's been happening in my old guild? This method Anet is using is definitely going to be a much appreciated thing when released.
They have open world raids, not instanced ones why worry over symantics?! it's open world you don't need LFG, everyone gets loot, everyone gets to participate, and updating the world events is what they will be focusing on. Who cares if you don't need a LFG system to have specific classes, or have to worry about someone leaving, or worry over someone snatches your loot? and disappears. Those things are things of the past.
Just curious, where does this Raid end game mentality comes from?
I’m currently playing DCUO and the end game is based on grind raids level 1 to get geared to then grind raids level 2 and continue on that treadmill forever. Btw, I only play DCUO because I like the combat system that’s all.
I find that kind of end game is dull and very similar to a news paper (great and nice in the morning but old and outdated by noon) The new raids become old as soon as you do them the first time and now developers are rushing to create new raids. So, the problem is never solved…………
In my books, every content you add in a game should be nice to repeat, with a real purpose. For instance:
Those 5 man dungeons that we have in GW2 should have ways to score points inside the dungeon as well as a timer. At the end of the dungeon your records should be recorded and compared with others for daily, weekly, monthly, all time ever best results. So, at least players can look into repeating content (if they choose to) for the sense of competing vs others . Again rewards should only be recognition and a the best cosmetics as you don’t want to force people to speed rush dungeons.
You only speed rush or try to score many points, if the group went to the dungeon with that intension only.
So, by doing this. Every time you add a new dungeon, it becomes something that some players might use for competition and that way the dungeon really expand the game.
Ugh... is no one making the connection between an absence of large raids and the death of the trinity? Look at what raids are (and I'll use WoW, being familiar with them...), they're large, scripted encounters built around the trinity. It's become so bad that prior to new raids being released the top PvP guilds are allowed to beta them. They're handed the script on how to beat the fight, they practice it in beta, create "how to beat this fight" videos, then race each other to be the first when it goes live while everyone watches the videos and tries to learn how to do the same dance the top guilds have already learned. It's a dance you have to learn to get the loot that lets you go to the next dance. Even 10 man raids are what... two tanks, two or three healers depending, and the rest DPS. Primary tank on the boss, secondary tank on any mobs that show up, or grabbing the slimes, or taunting off the boss when some silly mechanic is about to blow the primary tank up, etc. Primary healer on the main tank, secondary healer on the secondary tank and possibly spot healing the dps. DPS stand there, burn the boss, at this scripted phase everyone moves here or there, changes targets to burn them down, don't stand in the fire, return to the boss.
These types of raids, the types the MMO community has become used to, pretty well can't exist in GW2 due to the lack of a trinity and the inability to create a scripted type of event. You'll have bosses and mobs with their attacks and abilities, but with every profession being equally viable there will be countless ways to win every fight. No one can play a single role in this game... everyone is their own healer and contributes to controlling and damaging the enemy in their own ways. Teamwork becomes much more important in GW2 dungeons than in a WoW-style raid. You'll have to know your profession and your abilities rather than know your rotation. Keeping them at five people will allow for better, more cohesive teamwork and interactions than you'd have in larger, more chaotic battles.
Not to say that once we're more adept at this new style of combat we won't see larger things work their way in... hell, with large DEs we'll be able to join and experience real chaos in action. But WoW style raids... without the trinity and as a result without the ability to create set scripts to follow you simply can't have them in GW2. Different paradigm, different experiences.
Fascinating, learn something new everyday. So where is the competition in that? It's a farce like every other psychological manipulation WoW includes i see. Thanks for that btw.
The major problem I have with raiding is the time commitment required to get them off the ground and to actually complete them. When I'm on summer break and have no other obligations, I enjoy returning to WoW for some raiding, but it only takes about a month or so before I begin to lament the fact that I'm spending 3 or 4 hours a day, four days a week glued to my computer screen with an inability to commit myself to other obligations without loosing my spot in the raid team or loosing my shot at looting that item I've ben dieing to loot for the past 2 weeks. For those of us who actually have a life such as an 8-5 job 5 days a week and a family to take care of, I can't imagine how much of a timesink raiding must be unless you truly enjoyed it.
Raiding is fun, but the time requirement isn't fun nor is it healthy or realistic. The problem is most MMO developers don't care about your health or how you spend your time. MMORPGs are designed to keep you paying that subscription fee and to keep you logging in each and every day in hopes for a slightly larger slice of pie than what you had the previous day. The interesting thing is that Guild Wars 2 has no subscription fee thus has little reason to suck players into an endless timesink gear treadmill. Of course, if I play Guild Wars 2, I want it to be a game that will provide me with 1,000s of hours of content that I can play exclusively for years in place of World of Warcraft or Star Wars: The Old Republic, so it is a bit of a double edged sword. I applaud Anet for attempting something a bit different with a lack of a raid game, but they're going to have to come up with something that, while casual and easy to pick up and play, still has staying power that gives me motivation to log in every day.
Those 5 man dungeons that we have in GW2 should have ways to score points inside the dungeon as well as a timer. At the end of the dungeon your records should be recorded and compared with others for daily, weekly, monthly, all time ever best results. So, at least players can look into repeating content (if they choose to) for the sense of competing vs others . Again rewards should only be recognition and a the best cosmetics as you don’t want to force people to speed rush dungeons.
I don't think a timer would work for the GW2 dungeons. The issue is that dungeons will also include some Dynamic Events, and some random events that may or may not occur on a given run. That means each run through the Dungeon will be different enough that a simple timer won't be a fair comparison. A separate timer for each permutation of what you could encounter would get kind of silly: "My best time for explorable wing 2 of dungeon 4 where the troll boss does burst through the wall half way through the dungeon is 58 minutes."
Maybe people will rerun the dungeons just to see events that haven't occurred for them before. "Have you ever fought the jelly monster that drops from the ceiling in Explorable wing 3 of dungeon 6?" "What? No, I've been through there 6 times and never had that happen. I'm going back in tonight."
Those 5 man dungeons that we have in GW2 should have ways to score points inside the dungeon as well as a timer. At the end of the dungeon your records should be recorded and compared with others for daily, weekly, monthly, all time ever best results. So, at least players can look into repeating content (if they choose to) for the sense of competing vs others . Again rewards should only be recognition and a the best cosmetics as you don’t want to force people to speed rush dungeons.
I don't think a timer would work for the GW2 dungeons. The issue is that dungeons will also include some Dynamic Events, and some random events that may or may not occur on a given run. That means each run through the Dungeon will be different enough that a simple timer won't be a fair comparison. A separate timer for each permutation of what you could encounter would get kind of silly: "My best time for explorable wing 2 of dungeon 4 where the troll boss does burst through the wall half way through the dungeon is 58 minutes."
Maybe people will rerun the dungeons just to see events that haven't occurred for them before. "Have you ever fought the jelly monster that drops from the ceiling in Explorable wing 3 of dungeon 6?" "What? No, I've been through there 6 times and never had that happen. I'm going back in tonight."
What would be a fare comparison?
Bullfighting, Fishing, Hunting, Surfing, Pocker, Dominoes and many other competitive activities. The players are not facing the same enviroment that allows you to make a comparison that is 100% accurate and still they are very competitive.
Fare means that they went to the dungeon and they could not determine for sure what happened.
The good thing about GW2 is that you can try that dungeon as many times you want (different dynamic events) and stop when you want to and feel good with your time.
Comments
Its not just illogical it's not even a mainstay on many mmorpgs, what happens is when a popular game is on the verge of being released Raiders typically Raid the games forums in some hope of scaring the games devs into subjugating everyone else by totally redoing the game and adding in Raid looting. Truthfully Raid centric games have only been able to hold about the same amount of subs than any other mmo can. EVE online has more subs than every WOW clone on the market right now and it has no raiding. Its not that in the beginning it wasnt an ok concept its just been done to death and it only appeals to a vocal minority of players. I never understood it myself it appeals to a group of players who hate competition from other players and generally hate pvp, they dont want other people they cant control the situation with to be near them. They want to be rewarded for playing a raid boss mini game. Which takes place in an instance impervious to outside interference. AION allows interference and they HATE it, they cannot stand it that they can be killed by other players while doing pve. I say that even if GW2 proposed this type of system they would appose it, because its not REALLY about player preference its about control over other people playstyle preference. Your average raiders worst nightmare is being stalked by a group of really good pvpers while trying to kill a scripted monster, because the reality is they might kill the 30 foot raid boss, but the players are going to slaughter them and steal their treasure.
The reason that people try to have a raiding system is because they are still stuck in the typical WoW mentality and look for the class specific organized groups which still goes back to what Arenanet is trying to be getting rid of the Trinity class system. i agree that if everyone really teamed up on the dynamic events you pretty much have your raid taken care of as the scaleability would be insane. People need to stop suggesting retarted crap to have a company make another WoW clone when WoW it self is imploding as you can only change the same thing so many times. In reference to WoW you can take a terd and polish it soo many times but it is still a turd in the end.
You are so wrong. It's the raid gear that makes noobs bother maybe?
We were gathering players for raids LONG before there were "raid gear" drops.
If you are a raider, It's the fight that matters. The loot is just a nice "extra".
I just hope that end game pvp does not become the de facto replacement for raiding.
+1 to this. i'd delete my gear if it would help get a new boss down. it's all about the kill.
I feel the same way, but had a damned hard time finding like minded people. Seemed like all anyone cared about was the little birthday presents *gollum* that dropped at the end. I think moving the raid-scale problems out into the open world where they're sort of in your face until you make them go away will change that some.
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
That generalization of raiders is way off. Most guilds would pass on a fight if the loot table was not enabled.
For me, the raiding has always been about challenge and beating the content. In most themepark MMOs, the gear is what makes it possible. Raiding is like belonging to a sport club. It requires level of organisation and dedication that some people do not find attractive. I think people make the "grinding gear" a bigger issue that it really is. Most people like to get shinies, but in good guilds it is not the goal or the purpose of raiding.
However, a game does not have to have raiding as a gameplay feature, but it should have something that requires both organisation and dedication.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
after seeing that video, I'm not excited about this game after all. it feels more like swtor.
Read my blog http://sanmonocobra.blogspot.com/
Nine out of ten Raiders who say they like the Challenge of raids, never want to participate in competitive pvp. I think the difficulty of Raids is overblown, its a playstyle thats it, I have met countless Top gear score Raiders that I could mop the floor with in pvp with a basic pvp set. Because against players you cant stand in one spot and spam you highest DPS rotation. RAIDing is about time investment and having a large guild with recourses. Most raiders abhor in game events, world pvp, or anything that requires them to be at the mercy of the environment around them. Its a diseased playstyle that turns MMORPGS into 10 man lan parties and a chat room.
that's the bottom line, to me. beating on mobs is far too simple. as you said, you can just stand there and faceroll. the pace of pvp is much harder and faster and i've always wished that element could be brought into pve. i didn't play lotr, but wasn't there a gimmick of someone being able to control the boss? or the monsters? that would be a pretty cool addition, i think. getting a bit more of a challenge into those bosses by making them more unpredictable and more prone to responding to what they're facing. like, oh, i don't know, the UBER boss they're supposed to be?
i find it disappointing when the lore of the game builds up a boss to insane levels, and all they do is whomp you like an 80s platformer.
i'm not saying pvp is necessarily "better" but there's an element of challenge which comes from not knowing what the other player will bring to the party that's missing from pve. i really think the devs need to mix it up a bit more in the dungeon department. give some of us credit for wanting it to REALLY be hard and REALLY be challenging by not KNOWING what to expect and actually responding to what's thrown at us. to me, that would be awesome. i always envy the first guys to get into a dungeon. those who don't know what's in there, what's around the corner. that must feel awesome.
after that, though, with everyone forced to gear up and "know" and "learn" "the fight", it's just boring.
The amount of teamwork required to get things done in PvE groups of 25+ groups is insane. If one person makes a mistake you have a high chance of getting the entire group killed (talking about high end PvE here). PvPers often think a little to lighheaded about the top PvE stuff. Standing in 1 place the entire fight and rolling through you highest DPS rotation is something that almost never happens in top content. Most boss fights 5+- players get a very skill depended job while the other 20 players can do the fight with less important jobs. This results that not everyone needs to be of a high personal skill.
In PvP is slightly different since the groups are smaller ( even worse in 1v1 ). Because the groups are small everyone needs to be able to push things to the fullest. That being said in most (not all) you use the same basic tactics vs certain combs. to counter them. The biggest difference is ofc that PvP is always unpredictable. So the reaction time needs to be higher in PvP.
From what i've seen in the various MMO's i've played is that both side requires teamwork and strategy's and both sides needs some solid skilled players to get the job done.
Same can be said about PvP. Teamwork is usually between smaller groups ( 3vs3 for example ).
Ugh... is no one making the connection between an absence of large raids and the death of the trinity? Look at what raids are (and I'll use WoW, being familiar with them...), they're large, scripted encounters built around the trinity. It's become so bad that prior to new raids being released the top PvP guilds are allowed to beta them. They're handed the script on how to beat the fight, they practice it in beta, create "how to beat this fight" videos, then race each other to be the first when it goes live while everyone watches the videos and tries to learn how to do the same dance the top guilds have already learned. It's a dance you have to learn to get the loot that lets you go to the next dance. Even 10 man raids are what... two tanks, two or three healers depending, and the rest DPS. Primary tank on the boss, secondary tank on any mobs that show up, or grabbing the slimes, or taunting off the boss when some silly mechanic is about to blow the primary tank up, etc. Primary healer on the main tank, secondary healer on the secondary tank and possibly spot healing the dps. DPS stand there, burn the boss, at this scripted phase everyone moves here or there, changes targets to burn them down, don't stand in the fire, return to the boss.
These types of raids, the types the MMO community has become used to, pretty well can't exist in GW2 due to the lack of a trinity and the inability to create a scripted type of event. You'll have bosses and mobs with their attacks and abilities, but with every profession being equally viable there will be countless ways to win every fight. No one can play a single role in this game... everyone is their own healer and contributes to controlling and damaging the enemy in their own ways. Teamwork becomes much more important in GW2 dungeons than in a WoW-style raid. You'll have to know your profession and your abilities rather than know your rotation. Keeping them at five people will allow for better, more cohesive teamwork and interactions than you'd have in larger, more chaotic battles.
Not to say that once we're more adept at this new style of combat we won't see larger things work their way in... hell, with large DEs we'll be able to join and experience real chaos in action. But WoW style raids... without the trinity and as a result without the ability to create set scripts to follow you simply can't have them in GW2. Different paradigm, different experiences.
Oderint, dum metuant.
socialists? free health care?
is politics now joined into trying to ruining games? LOL. you are pathetic.
If it is fun and they don't think they get enough tax money on it they will try to ruin it. That is how politicians work.
Ok..I thoguht it was a troll but now I don't know what to think about this cartoon, nor about the person putting it as his signature. :P
There's a series of those cartoons referring to differences between GW2 and WoW-style MMOs... I forget who wrote them but they're rather comical.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I'm surprised you lack the sense of humour to get the joke in my sig pic and thus proceeded to insult me. Perhaps you'll understand this one, if not then you might as well just leave the forums before you rage on another innocent.
I can live without raids, no problem. I like the general concept of a bunch of people getting together to beat a really big monster, but the logistics of actually doing it are horrible. I suppose the original incarnations were fun, more like the world events and world bosses in Rift, but the final evolution of having damage meters and raids tuned to account for damage meters and mods that tell you what to do is just not fun.
So, no holy trinity? No raids? Excellent!
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Just watched the dedicated healer video AWESOME, that he's describing what's happening in games like WoW RIGHT NOW people just standing around in cities waiting on queues because there aren't enough healers because we are all fixed into this niche and when people stopped playing healers en masse like they did when they nerfed healers at the beginning of Cata it was a huge problem That's why right now it takes 30 minutes to get into a dungeon as a dps because there is such a huge shortage. GW2 will allow you to switch weapons mid fight and change your role just like that giving people more freedom by removing the trinity requirement people will be free to do whatever they want in dungeons.
Just finished the Sub Fee video LOVE this guy! OMG he's basically saying EVERYTHING i've been saying for a year now about why Subs are not necessary to run an MMO which is another reason why i love Anet so much because of their beliefs about the mmo sub. Times have changed sub costs are not necessary they are just fluff for the profit line and every game out there is finally starting to change to a model of using a store. It's happening folks and it's going to change some more not just because of the economy but also because of the players. Aren't you tired of not being able to login the game you like where some of your friends are just to say hi how are you what's been happening in my old guild? This method Anet is using is definitely going to be a much appreciated thing when released.
They have open world raids, not instanced ones why worry over symantics?! it's open world you don't need LFG, everyone gets loot, everyone gets to participate, and updating the world events is what they will be focusing on. Who cares if you don't need a LFG system to have specific classes, or have to worry about someone leaving, or worry over someone snatches your loot? and disappears. Those things are things of the past.
I cannot wait!
Just curious, where does this Raid end game mentality comes from?
I’m currently playing DCUO and the end game is based on grind raids level 1 to get geared to then grind raids level 2 and continue on that treadmill forever. Btw, I only play DCUO because I like the combat system that’s all.
I find that kind of end game is dull and very similar to a news paper (great and nice in the morning but old and outdated by noon) The new raids become old as soon as you do them the first time and now developers are rushing to create new raids. So, the problem is never solved…………
In my books, every content you add in a game should be nice to repeat, with a real purpose. For instance:
Those 5 man dungeons that we have in GW2 should have ways to score points inside the dungeon as well as a timer. At the end of the dungeon your records should be recorded and compared with others for daily, weekly, monthly, all time ever best results. So, at least players can look into repeating content (if they choose to) for the sense of competing vs others . Again rewards should only be recognition and a the best cosmetics as you don’t want to force people to speed rush dungeons.
You only speed rush or try to score many points, if the group went to the dungeon with that intension only.
So, by doing this. Every time you add a new dungeon, it becomes something that some players might use for competition and that way the dungeon really expand the game.
Fascinating, learn something new everyday. So where is the competition in that? It's a farce like every other psychological manipulation WoW includes i see. Thanks for that btw.
The major problem I have with raiding is the time commitment required to get them off the ground and to actually complete them. When I'm on summer break and have no other obligations, I enjoy returning to WoW for some raiding, but it only takes about a month or so before I begin to lament the fact that I'm spending 3 or 4 hours a day, four days a week glued to my computer screen with an inability to commit myself to other obligations without loosing my spot in the raid team or loosing my shot at looting that item I've ben dieing to loot for the past 2 weeks. For those of us who actually have a life such as an 8-5 job 5 days a week and a family to take care of, I can't imagine how much of a timesink raiding must be unless you truly enjoyed it.
Raiding is fun, but the time requirement isn't fun nor is it healthy or realistic. The problem is most MMO developers don't care about your health or how you spend your time. MMORPGs are designed to keep you paying that subscription fee and to keep you logging in each and every day in hopes for a slightly larger slice of pie than what you had the previous day. The interesting thing is that Guild Wars 2 has no subscription fee thus has little reason to suck players into an endless timesink gear treadmill. Of course, if I play Guild Wars 2, I want it to be a game that will provide me with 1,000s of hours of content that I can play exclusively for years in place of World of Warcraft or Star Wars: The Old Republic, so it is a bit of a double edged sword. I applaud Anet for attempting something a bit different with a lack of a raid game, but they're going to have to come up with something that, while casual and easy to pick up and play, still has staying power that gives me motivation to log in every day.
I don't think a timer would work for the GW2 dungeons. The issue is that dungeons will also include some Dynamic Events, and some random events that may or may not occur on a given run. That means each run through the Dungeon will be different enough that a simple timer won't be a fair comparison. A separate timer for each permutation of what you could encounter would get kind of silly: "My best time for explorable wing 2 of dungeon 4 where the troll boss does burst through the wall half way through the dungeon is 58 minutes."
Maybe people will rerun the dungeons just to see events that haven't occurred for them before. "Have you ever fought the jelly monster that drops from the ceiling in Explorable wing 3 of dungeon 6?" "What? No, I've been through there 6 times and never had that happen. I'm going back in tonight."
What would be a fare comparison?
Bullfighting, Fishing, Hunting, Surfing, Pocker, Dominoes and many other competitive activities. The players are not facing the same enviroment that allows you to make a comparison that is 100% accurate and still they are very competitive.
Fare means that they went to the dungeon and they could not determine for sure what happened.
The good thing about GW2 is that you can try that dungeon as many times you want (different dynamic events) and stop when you want to and feel good with your time.