I agree that Horde against Alliance is far more interesting then the SWTOR Evil Sith Empire against the Corrupt Jedi Republic, but there are a number of good faction vs faction MMOs out there and there is no reason that future MMOs won't have good factions matchs.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Back when I played WoW shortly after release there was no faction pride at all. Neither side cared about what the other was doing. The typical response to the messages, "Ashenvalle is under attack" was "let them have it".
I never played DAoC so I can't comment on it.
In Eve, players have a tremendous amount of pride in their coorporation and alliance. My guess is because losing has consequences (sometimes very harsh) and players are forced to work as a team to survive.
Yes see pvp has no point in most mmos anymore in Dark of camelot you pvped for darkness falls control which was a dungeon with some of the best loot and grinding spots and also you fought for runes in the keeps which boosted your factions gold xp and other stuff when controlled. Pvp now days has lost all meaning and in most games now i just play pve servers casue pvp has no point at all, giving me gear is not a valid reason to pvp imo when the gear is required to be good in pvp.
As far as faction pride, did you ever play Dark Age of Camelot back in the day?
^ This. You have no idea what faction pride is unless you played DAOC during its peak.
I played DAOC at its peak...and quit before the free month was over due to how bland and tedious it was. Does that make my opinion that WOW faction pride trumps DAOC's more meaningful?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
how many game have ppl waking up 4am in the morning for relic raid? lol.
Sleep is for the weak. I waited til 4AM in WF to launch my cross galatic armada and spent 36 hours in a row conquering 1/5 of all the planets of my enemies.
I played Planetarion years ago. I remember getting SMS messages from all over Europe every night for a month - "Incoming send def!"
Def would be sent. The hour would pass until the next tick. Incoming would pull. Sighs of relief would be breathed across the continent. Back to bed.
Two hours later. Phone beeps "Incoming send def!"...
Good times. I would never, ever touch that game again though....
The only game I've played where faction pride really was a big deal was SWG. If someone switched factions it's like they were outcasts, traitors and so on... not only in-game but on the forums and in real life lol. Kinda funny. And if you were neutral, everyone WANTED you to join their faction. Kinda an interesting dynamic.
WoW kinda felt shallow in comparison. No real consequence to which faction you picked. No sense of pride for me.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
SWTOR Empire Vs Republic does not have the same feel nor the epicness that Vaniella WoW had with Horde vs Alliance, people loved their sides, people loved being alliance or horde, people loved horde because they were misunderstood, ugly, and outcast, people loved alliance because they were beautiful, and just as misunderstood as the horde.
When the alliance and Horde would clash in azeroth such as TM vs SS or Astrannar vs Xroads, people came from all over as soon as they heard the bell ring that their town was attacked and not just level 60s but every one from level 10 to 60 all joined an all out war to either advance or push back.
I remember one memorable moment when alliance had attacked the horde town in astrannar, I was all the way in STV, grinding on raptors, when I saw a huge fleet of horde all levels riding across the bridge ready to back up the small horde force taking on an even larger force of alliance. Just watching them in aw not even having a mount yet, I went into wolf form and followed the band of horde seeing an all out war in astrannar between alliance and horde.
Just seeing the horde numbers being small holding their own in astrannar until a larger force of horde arrived was such an epic moment and made me proud of being in the horde. Such a nerd moment but I could never feel these epic moments in another mmorpg today, not even in WoWs current state.
Going back, Original WoW was truly the best mmorpg ever. Its sad to see what WoW has become and what every mmorpg after has become. Theres no pride or epic moments in mmorpgs any more
HAHA the OP bring back memories!! I was Alliance back in Vanilla WoW. I have to admit, World PvP was much more of a harder more epic task back then, because of stat ranges.
when TBC came around, it held some of the epicness, but as time went on, and stats went up, I could solo most hubs. I even soloed some Nagrad areas when Garrosh there.
DAOC and Eve hold the faction pride medal in my eyes lol. Nothing like two thousand very very angry spaceship pilots swarming to take you out because you messed with one of their structures xD
SWTOR Empire Vs Republic does not have the same feel nor the epicness that Vaniella WoW had with Horde vs Alliance, people loved their sides, people loved being alliance or horde, people loved horde because they were misunderstood, ugly, and outcast, people loved alliance because they were beautiful, and just as misunderstood as the horde.
When the alliance and Horde would clash in azeroth such as TM vs SS or Astrannar vs Xroads, people came from all over as soon as they heard the bell ring that their town was attacked and not just level 60s but every one from level 10 to 60 all joined an all out war to either advance or push back.
I remember one memorable moment when alliance had attacked the horde town in astrannar, I was all the way in STV, grinding on raptors, when I saw a huge fleet of horde all levels riding across the bridge ready to back up the small horde force taking on an even larger force of alliance. Just watching them in aw not even having a mount yet, I went into wolf form and followed the band of horde seeing an all out war in astrannar between alliance and horde.
Just seeing the horde numbers being small holding their own in astrannar until a larger force of horde arrived was such an epic moment and made me proud of being in the horde. Such a nerd moment but I could never feel these epic moments in another mmorpg today, not even in WoWs current state.
Going back, Original WoW was truly the best mmorpg ever. Its sad to see what WoW has become and what every mmorpg after has become. Theres no pride or epic moments in mmorpgs any more
You are entitled to your own opinion. However, I can tell that you never played DAoC. You felt a part of something because the game was designed to promote teamwork within your faction with faction only lands. The first time you ventured into enemy lands, you felt overwhelmed. You felt like you were in a foreign place, and that danger was lurking just around the corner, even if it wasnt. When enemies tried to take your keeps from your lands, almost everyone felt a need to chip in to defend. When there was a relic keep raid, almost the whole faction came to support the raid, even the lower levels. That game had real faction pride. The characters, races, professions, artwork, and overall world were drastically different. You actually had something to fight for.
World of Warcraft has NO faction pride at all. How many times have you seen the enemy roll into your capital city and kill your hero? I bet your answer is well over a dozen times(probably more). How many of those times did you get a large response from your faction mates? Hardly ever? Would you eventually drive them out? Sure, but the fact that they could stand outside your gates for 30 minutes before attacking, and still no one coming to defend, is pathetic. I've tried rallying my guild, alliances, going over general chat, anything that I could. People could just not be bothered in most cases. They were too busy crafting, grinding, questing, or standing in another city with their thumb up their behinds. They didn't give a rats ass that their capital city is being crushed by the enemy because they didn't gain anything of personal value from it. They don't comprehend pride, because the game of WoW doesn't encourage it. It doesn't give a reason to do such things.
I feel sad for people who believe this. They haven't experienced all the MMO's that ushered in all of these cookie cutter games. Back before gear was the end game, and the journey mattered more. Before five thousand quests were your progression system. Back when people actually cared about others in these games. It took time and sacrifice to progress. It's just a shame.
I understand that DAoC, SWG, UO and games similar aren't very attractive and aren't what they used to be in some cases... It really isn't your fault, it's just sad to see new gamers believing that these new games can actually stand up to the older games when it comes to something like this, Realm/Faction pride.
Alliance was never the misunderstood side trust me, they were the holy rolling better then you preppy side.
It's true that faction sides were sortof encouraged by the DEVs but not so much in other games.
I played WoW for seven years i wouldn't call it the best mmo even in vanilla because i didn't experience the other mmo's that were out there however from what i've heard about other games it wasn't the best experience for the money just the most convenient to play.
I am about to be a condescending prick because WoW clone type threads piss me off. Why? Because WoW is a clone. WoW as far as interface and character rendering and all that go is basically a DAOC clone with some EQ1 thrown in. WoW didn't really invent anything, EVERYTHING that is in WoW was in Asheron's call, EQ1, or DAOC before it. The problem here is that some of ya'll are young and don't remember these games and think WoW was the originator and bestest ever. The fact is not only is WoW a clone, it doesn't do PVP as well as daoc(not even close) it doesn't do pve as good as EQ1, and its graphics are reminiscent of a saturday morning children's cartoon, and I am not talking about anything as cool as pinkie and the brain here.
And the sense of community, pvp and otherwise was better on EQ and DAOC, but hey keep riding that WoW train, you may even convince yourself panderans don't suck.
I'm not a big pvp'er, but you are absolutely correct. WoW didn't do one thing better or different than what EQ1 and DAoC had done. Of course, a lot of that is subjective. Many people preferred WoW's lack of death penalty to a real death penalty like in EQ1 or DAoC.
OP is actually right in a way. I can't vouch for every single game that has ever come across, but I can say that during Vanilla WoW (notice I said "Vanilla"), there was more faction pride than any game I've ever played, and I've played quite a few. That isn't to say that it had the best PvP ever, but in Vanilla WoW, the was a willingness by the players to really get out into open world PvP, and the zones were set up by Blizzard in the contested areas to really facillitate that. It actually meant something to people to defend one of your towns, or to go after members of the other faction who happened to be running through your territory. You both hated and feared the other guy.
WoW catches a lot of flak for a variety of things, but they did get open world PvP right for the most part, and created their zones in a way to facilitate that kind of action. Unfortunately, the advent of battlegrounds and arena matches basically ruined the open world PvP aspect of WoW, as players no longer had reason to partake in it when they could just farm instanced PvP for better rewards.
Just because they designed zones to be contested and gave you the ability to attack the enemy doesn't mean that Blizzard did a good job with open world PvP.
People who know what real open world PvP is, know this. There is no reason to PvP in WoW other than to... well, get better gear. There's no faction wide bonuses, no guild controlling bonuses, no crafting or profession bonuses for holding areas such as mines, logging fields, quarries, etc. There are no short or long term buffs for doing it. There are no rewards for doing it. It's just there because you CAN do it. It's because the mechanics ALLOW you to do it. Not because it means anything at all. because it doesn't.
There is no risk. There is no reward. There is no meaning.
I am still in just shock at this topic, dam the WOW kids have lost there dam mind. First pandas know this, man whats next WOW is the first MMO game ever made?
WoW could never hold a candle to the faction pride Daoc had.when I wish for a game with multiple factions and realm pride I'd be using Daoc as the benchmark,not Wow...not by a long shot.
So right.. wow has no chance im terms of faction price compared to daoc. Wow it just doesnt matter what faction you are, all the same, exept of some quest giver and towns.
Doac had 3 different countrys , ALL different classes and Races (exept of one). Open world pvp had a meanind in daoc, not just mindless grind for fun.
BUT, I think it also mattern which mmo was the first for someone, the bounds aer still stronger with the first mmo.
Realm pride is something that came from the playerbase, not a particular game design. DAoC 2 could be released today and it wouldn't exist.
The mentality of most pvp players has changed since then, no one fights out of simple competitive nature/dislike of another realm, it's to get gear/abilities/level and such.
I agree with the OP that realm pride has been gone since very early/vanilla WoW, but I blame the current MMO playerbase for it's loss, not the design of PvP in modern games.
I must admit that my first thought was also "DAoC". I will always be for Midgard.
I never saw too much faction pride in all the years I played wow but then I mostly played Alliance. While I was on the Horde side there was definitly more faction pride it seemed though I wouldn't say that the majority seemed to feel that way. But the minority that was "for the Horde!" was definitly vocal about it. It was good to see. I would guess that alliance never got that vibe to the same degree for two reasons. They have no battle cry that is equivalent to "for the Horde" and half the lore around stormwind was hellbent on portraying the alliance as corrupt and self serving. Hard to develop loyalty when your lore gives you every reason to not be.
But frankly I have seen better faction loyalty even in Aion. At least there, regardless the side you are on, you felt like you were fighting for the good guys. The Asmos are dead convinced that they are they good guys and for good reasons. The Elyos are the same, the factions, lorewise, actually like themselves and that is kind of refreshing. I have never seen in WoW even half as much righteous indignation as I saw in Aion. Maybe it also helped that I was on the "RP" server. But even the asmo legion I was in 10 months on another server was very very pro asmo.
And I would also agree that EVE brings Alliance pride to a whole 'nother' level. No other game has tracked its history quite like EVE. People can still recount the great shifts of power and the demise of great alliances such as BoB. People either love the Goons or hate them with a passion that you just don't see in games. You have to immerse yourself in that culture for a while to really get it.
In a similar way you also used to have the same thing going on in Lineage 2 with the territory wars, fighting for forts and clan halls. The bitter rivalries between clans. Groups and clans and alliances forming to take down the dominating clans. The strife and the drama as power shifted here and there. You just have to have some level of non-consentual pvp and/or clan war mechanic for that to really work I think. But again, the loyalty to once clan ran deep in a way that is hard to describe to people who have only played WoW or similar games. There is a reason that Russian L2 clans have been know to clash in real life when they meet in CyberCafes. http://kotaku.com/345969/russian-man-killed-over-lineage-ii-clan-grudge Clan Grudge? for real? I have never heard of anyone throwing down in real life because they play horde and just found out that the person they met at the party plays alliance. A little respect might be lost but usually not lives.
Comments
FOR THE HORDE!
I agree that Horde against Alliance is far more interesting then the SWTOR Evil Sith Empire against the Corrupt Jedi Republic, but there are a number of good faction vs faction MMOs out there and there is no reason that future MMOs won't have good factions matchs.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Yes see pvp has no point in most mmos anymore in Dark of camelot you pvped for darkness falls control which was a dungeon with some of the best loot and grinding spots and also you fought for runes in the keeps which boosted your factions gold xp and other stuff when controlled. Pvp now days has lost all meaning and in most games now i just play pve servers casue pvp has no point at all, giving me gear is not a valid reason to pvp imo when the gear is required to be good in pvp.
I played DAOC at its peak...and quit before the free month was over due to how bland and tedious it was. Does that make my opinion that WOW faction pride trumps DAOC's more meaningful?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I played Planetarion years ago. I remember getting SMS messages from all over Europe every night for a month - "Incoming send def!"
Def would be sent. The hour would pass until the next tick. Incoming would pull. Sighs of relief would be breathed across the continent. Back to bed.
Two hours later. Phone beeps "Incoming send def!"...
Good times. I would never, ever touch that game again though....
The only game I've played where faction pride really was a big deal was SWG. If someone switched factions it's like they were outcasts, traitors and so on... not only in-game but on the forums and in real life lol. Kinda funny. And if you were neutral, everyone WANTED you to join their faction. Kinda an interesting dynamic.
WoW kinda felt shallow in comparison. No real consequence to which faction you picked. No sense of pride for me.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
HAHA the OP bring back memories!! I was Alliance back in Vanilla WoW. I have to admit, World PvP was much more of a harder more epic task back then, because of stat ranges.
when TBC came around, it held some of the epicness, but as time went on, and stats went up, I could solo most hubs. I even soloed some Nagrad areas when Garrosh there.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Everyone has fond memories of their first mmo.. but lets not go overboard here. I mean, it is still WoW, so easy ANYONE can play (and does).
DAOC and Eve hold the faction pride medal in my eyes lol. Nothing like two thousand very very angry spaceship pilots swarming to take you out because you messed with one of their structures xD
You know if pride means that much to you guys, there is a parade on June 24th...
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
You are entitled to your own opinion. However, I can tell that you never played DAoC. You felt a part of something because the game was designed to promote teamwork within your faction with faction only lands. The first time you ventured into enemy lands, you felt overwhelmed. You felt like you were in a foreign place, and that danger was lurking just around the corner, even if it wasnt. When enemies tried to take your keeps from your lands, almost everyone felt a need to chip in to defend. When there was a relic keep raid, almost the whole faction came to support the raid, even the lower levels. That game had real faction pride. The characters, races, professions, artwork, and overall world were drastically different. You actually had something to fight for.
World of Warcraft has NO faction pride at all. How many times have you seen the enemy roll into your capital city and kill your hero? I bet your answer is well over a dozen times(probably more). How many of those times did you get a large response from your faction mates? Hardly ever? Would you eventually drive them out? Sure, but the fact that they could stand outside your gates for 30 minutes before attacking, and still no one coming to defend, is pathetic. I've tried rallying my guild, alliances, going over general chat, anything that I could. People could just not be bothered in most cases. They were too busy crafting, grinding, questing, or standing in another city with their thumb up their behinds. They didn't give a rats ass that their capital city is being crushed by the enemy because they didn't gain anything of personal value from it. They don't comprehend pride, because the game of WoW doesn't encourage it. It doesn't give a reason to do such things.
I feel sad for people who believe this. They haven't experienced all the MMO's that ushered in all of these cookie cutter games. Back before gear was the end game, and the journey mattered more. Before five thousand quests were your progression system. Back when people actually cared about others in these games. It took time and sacrifice to progress. It's just a shame.
I understand that DAoC, SWG, UO and games similar aren't very attractive and aren't what they used to be in some cases... It really isn't your fault, it's just sad to see new gamers believing that these new games can actually stand up to the older games when it comes to something like this, Realm/Faction pride.
mmmmmmMMmmmm
WoW faction pride
"Lets lose fast ,its more honor"
Let's internet
Alliance was never the misunderstood side trust me, they were the holy rolling better then you preppy side.
It's true that faction sides were sortof encouraged by the DEVs but not so much in other games.
I played WoW for seven years i wouldn't call it the best mmo even in vanilla because i didn't experience the other mmo's that were out there however from what i've heard about other games it wasn't the best experience for the money just the most convenient to play.
I'm not a big pvp'er, but you are absolutely correct. WoW didn't do one thing better or different than what EQ1 and DAoC had done. Of course, a lot of that is subjective. Many people preferred WoW's lack of death penalty to a real death penalty like in EQ1 or DAoC.
War for one, aion for two.
Then you have upcoming dominus, the secret world, planetside 2
not compared to EQ1 but compared to WoW, yes.
I think the OP is trolling big time.
No way in this world has any game had more facion pride then DAOC!! *
As much as it pains me to say this*Gulps* even the realm Albion has more faction pride then the whole game of WOW, dam tea drinking nancy boys.
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Which FF Character Are You?
Just because they designed zones to be contested and gave you the ability to attack the enemy doesn't mean that Blizzard did a good job with open world PvP.
People who know what real open world PvP is, know this. There is no reason to PvP in WoW other than to... well, get better gear. There's no faction wide bonuses, no guild controlling bonuses, no crafting or profession bonuses for holding areas such as mines, logging fields, quarries, etc. There are no short or long term buffs for doing it. There are no rewards for doing it. It's just there because you CAN do it. It's because the mechanics ALLOW you to do it. Not because it means anything at all. because it doesn't.
There is no risk. There is no reward. There is no meaning.
I am still in just shock at this topic, dam the WOW kids have lost there dam mind. First pandas know this, man whats next WOW is the first MMO game ever made?
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Ah yeah, the epic moments of Arathi Basin.
So right.. wow has no chance im terms of faction price compared to daoc. Wow it just doesnt matter what faction you are, all the same, exept of some quest giver and towns.
Doac had 3 different countrys , ALL different classes and Races (exept of one). Open world pvp had a meanind in daoc, not just mindless grind for fun.
BUT, I think it also mattern which mmo was the first for someone, the bounds aer still stronger with the first mmo.
Realm pride is something that came from the playerbase, not a particular game design. DAoC 2 could be released today and it wouldn't exist.
The mentality of most pvp players has changed since then, no one fights out of simple competitive nature/dislike of another realm, it's to get gear/abilities/level and such.
I agree with the OP that realm pride has been gone since very early/vanilla WoW, but I blame the current MMO playerbase for it's loss, not the design of PvP in modern games.
I must admit that my first thought was also "DAoC". I will always be for Midgard.
I never saw too much faction pride in all the years I played wow but then I mostly played Alliance. While I was on the Horde side there was definitly more faction pride it seemed though I wouldn't say that the majority seemed to feel that way. But the minority that was "for the Horde!" was definitly vocal about it. It was good to see. I would guess that alliance never got that vibe to the same degree for two reasons. They have no battle cry that is equivalent to "for the Horde" and half the lore around stormwind was hellbent on portraying the alliance as corrupt and self serving. Hard to develop loyalty when your lore gives you every reason to not be.
But frankly I have seen better faction loyalty even in Aion. At least there, regardless the side you are on, you felt like you were fighting for the good guys. The Asmos are dead convinced that they are they good guys and for good reasons. The Elyos are the same, the factions, lorewise, actually like themselves and that is kind of refreshing. I have never seen in WoW even half as much righteous indignation as I saw in Aion. Maybe it also helped that I was on the "RP" server. But even the asmo legion I was in 10 months on another server was very very pro asmo.
And I would also agree that EVE brings Alliance pride to a whole 'nother' level. No other game has tracked its history quite like EVE. People can still recount the great shifts of power and the demise of great alliances such as BoB. People either love the Goons or hate them with a passion that you just don't see in games. You have to immerse yourself in that culture for a while to really get it.
In a similar way you also used to have the same thing going on in Lineage 2 with the territory wars, fighting for forts and clan halls. The bitter rivalries between clans. Groups and clans and alliances forming to take down the dominating clans. The strife and the drama as power shifted here and there. You just have to have some level of non-consentual pvp and/or clan war mechanic for that to really work I think. But again, the loyalty to once clan ran deep in a way that is hard to describe to people who have only played WoW or similar games. There is a reason that Russian L2 clans have been know to clash in real life when they meet in CyberCafes. http://kotaku.com/345969/russian-man-killed-over-lineage-ii-clan-grudge Clan Grudge? for real? I have never heard of anyone throwing down in real life because they play horde and just found out that the person they met at the party plays alliance. A little respect might be lost but usually not lives.
All die, so die well.