I'm pretty sure you're trying to make things up to discredit the video (along with your comments in the youtube channel). First, Fate QL10 DPS gear gives you around ~4K HP, and considering most players use DPS gear as opposed to tank gear, while not perfect HP is good enough for me. Not to mention Fate's been around for well over a week now so there's no reason for the majority of CB testers not to have it. I managed to break 6K HP because I'm using mostly tank gear with a few DPS pieces thrown in. I've been PvPing since I stepped in the Savage Coast with low level QL gear and I never managed to break 4K til I started getting QL7-8 tank pieces. So to have over 5K at QL3, you must be either the luckiest player on TSW (all +health tanking blues I imagine) or be bullshitting. And no, the character booster doesn't boost you that I high. Let's see a video of this character you claim I killed rocking 5k HP with QL3 gear please.
Secondly, I've never stepped in a PvP zone with pistols. I hate their channeled abilities. Likewise, I never PvP'ed earlier, during or anywhere near the weekend (out of town), I only PvP'ed late Monday to get the footage for this video. Hadn't PvPed for a while before that. The footage wasn't obtained furing Fusang test times either. Like I said, you're either talking about the wrong person here, or just making stuff up.
If you want to see what a low QL gear player looks like, see this 3 seconds of the video. I actually did most of the editing to take several guys like him off the video. I really do wish I could put up more challenging fights, but I haven't come across them yet. If you think you can put up a better fight, let me know so we can arrange something. Maybe I'm wrong after all, and you can't kill players by repeatedly smashing your face on the keyboard. This is not to brag or a callout by the way. I'm not even that good, which is the entire point of this video, a player should not be able to do this well by mindlessly spamming 2 buttons over and over. I'm sure some of you disagree, and think the simplicity and repetitiveness of TSW's combat is brilliant, I guess in that case we'll have to agree to disagree. Whoever said that classes in TSW felt like a WoW Rogue with 5 abilities pretty much sums up how I feel about the combat.
Also keep in mind that I've pre-ordered TSW, I'm not just some blind hater. I love the writing and story in this game and definitely think that alone is worth the box price. This is not a "don't buy TSW" thread, more of a "Why I think the combat is boring" thread.
An attempt to make this constructive again :
I guess this is a bit of speculation from both side. This footage was taken slightly after then pvp test as far as I can remember. I know that most of the dragons you attack after around 4:00 in the video is QL3-5 players. Yes, you can easily get 5k hp as QL3 with one or two blue talis + some innate hp boost for lowbies + the hp suit (you select suit when you sign up).
I do agree that many players will probably go for this spam approach. This is actually even more trivial with tank spec and blades simply spamming AoE builder and AoE consumer, but there are many ways to sabotage that. It's especially bad when lowbies glace hit them, because a percentage of the hit is also converted into a heal. A simple purge debuff or two will solve that.
I probably have mixed you up with someone using a similar name.
The thing is : DPS wise you can do a lot better using other combinations. I'm also puzzled by how little resistance you get in general. Some people don't even seem to be able to get one single hit on you. This might just be new players with strange builds that have no idea what to do and what skills are available. Maybe they grabbed a predefined deck. Those are mostly horrible for pvp.
For PvE, the rotation you are using is definitely suboptimal, but definitely beneficial in pvp considering how little effort you put into it. Again, the benefit eventually when people figure things out is hard to predict. We're probably both specularing here. I also hope that spamming builders and consumers *in pvp* will not be the ultimate weapon. It might be that defensive chaos/fists give you way too much mitigation compared to damage output (considering chaos is "tank"). Chaos specs with survivability 10 give you a 40%+ absorbed of the next attack if you evade an attack. This his insanely beneficial if a lowbie attacks you. (Purge debuff needed first)
You are right though that dps specced QL10 players can go down almost as fast as a lowbie, but they should be able to bite back pretty hard even if they only live for a few seconds.
I'll actually try out a defensive Chaos/Fist combo later. It's probably in the same league as blade spamming.
It's obvious you think your experiencs in raid finder make you an expert raider in WoW. It does not. Even though the horribly dull heroic DS encounters don't make the best case for that.
I can't wait for you to be in fusang etc getting facerolled by "l33tkids" like me and wondering why. Hint, it's not because we're l33tkid button-mashers with the reaction speed of mongooses on crack, or something like that.
It's because we are thinking, tactical players who play as a team and who have worked out the metagame and found the best builds, which we will use, along with a tight assist train, to melt down bad players in their dozens.
Then everyone will use the same builds that we found and posted videos about (unless you think people enjoy getting beaten constantly, in my experience, they don't) just like it has happened in every single MMO till now.
And then the game will drop down to 3-4 builds total that everyone will use.
I know it all sounds "mind-blowingly complex" like the flashy wheel, but really, it's all very simple and predictable. See previous games for reference.
You are correct, Deadly Boss Mods is not even needed, I played a death knight tank all through WOTLK and never once used DBM, I told my guild I had it installed because they required it but each fight involved following very simple tactics that anyone with a brain can work out, the main problem is if the other 24 people in your raid can also follow their simple tactics and not arse it up.
I only used DBM once I became a healer because taking care of everyone else and yourself becomes more of a challenge and its nice to get an alert, as a dps or a tank though it is easy to keep track of what the boss is doing since more often than not you will have him targetted anyway. Saying that healing Ultraxxion normal and heroic is just a numbers game, you have him targetted the whole time so its not hard to see when he casts the spell you need to teleport away from, and the debuff you get is easy to keep track of too. WoW is not THAT complicated, the complexity comes from the number of people doing the task, you are relying on them not to fuck up.
I'd love to hear how you did rag heroic seeds without timers... oh right. And of course the only example is Ultraxion, one of the worst fights of the worst raiding tier ever designed.
please take your obnoxious attention-grabbing signature to heart.
you can throw all the numbers and formulas into your posts as you like, but 99% of your analysis is based on pure subjectivity, personal preference and comparisons to GW2 (among others). stop trying to hide behind statistics to prop up arguments that either have no basis in fact ot haven't been substantiated through enough testing. clearly, not all of the skills are as useful as others, but trying to distill the entire wheel down to a only a few truly effective builds is nonsense.
quite frankly, it is clear you don't like the combat. i certainly i appreciate lively debate, but can you please leave well enough alone at this point and move on?...go stress test GW2 or make use of 30 hotkeys in another game for god's sake if that's the kind of thing you enjoy.
Originat system is as good as any of those, then it means you haven't played any of the others to any level of competence to make a proper judgement on the matter.
LOL 6 years, that it?
I find TSW is by far the most customizationable ( Not sure if I spelled that right ) game in regards to character advancement, I've been playing MMORPGS since 1997 and then even before that MUDS and afew other games , so it does'nt matter if you have 6 years or 50 years of gaming everyone has their own likes/dislikes and me personaly, I found TSW to be extremely refreshing , much better combat that WoW and shall I say? GW2 THERE I SAID IT! LOL
So bottom line I agree with Caldrin and disagree with you.
You can tell you're not very good at working out metagames.
TSW looks complex on the surface, but it's actually very simple for people who understand the underlying mathematics and systems behind hotbar MMOs with buff/debuff types.
There are 2 weapons for 2 sets of combo points, 4 debuff types, and basic synergies. That is all there is.
Take away the glittery wheel, get down to brass tacks on the synergies, and you realise that it has actually very little customisation, and will end up in a handful of best builds for every situation.
This is because you will only ever have 7/7 that you can actually use in a given fight.
You can say all day everday till your blue in the face it doesnt mean you're right.
If you think TSW isnt complex then you either are an Analyticical Engineer or are fooling only your self. I assure you the complexity of this system has not even begun to be metagamed out and wont be for a very long time.
You say the 7/7 limits you when in all truthfulness it prohibits the sort of things that has made other MMO combat systems more cumbersome, easy, and narrow with a plethora of options, a Mage in WoW, or a Trooper in SWTOR had access to the same skillset so his combat was all about button mashing whereas you are limited "for a reason" in TSW. Yea that certain attack might be good now, but what happens when you come across mobs such as Vampires in translyvania who grow in size and gain health for every affliction you place on them? All of a sudden that entire Blades/Blood deck you've been playing with through 3 zones is null. You have to look at the greater picture cause not every mob will "just fall down to your barrage of skills" liek every other MMO out there. Specialization will limit you greatly in TSW and because of the limited skill deck system you can not jsut build a one size fits all deck to tackle any given situation. This is the strength and beauty of the system and if you still think that isnt complex then your hopeless and our conversation is finished.
Yeah, if you think that it takes being an analytical engineer to work out MMO metagames, it means you're either not spending any energy on thinking, or not able to understand closed systems which are frankly quite small and limited compared to the vast complexity of actual sciences or economics etc.
I'm not talking about making the simulationcraft spreadsheets here, just about sitting down with a cup of tea and just reading the system to work out the basic ways the abilities and passives work. It is not difficult and does not take very long at all.
MMOs are not poetry, they are mathematics.
TSW is one of the simplest, most basic mathematical metagames out there despite its seeming complexity, and that is because of the 7/7 system and the 4-prong condition/cc system.
The limited number of abilities makes all the potential complexities from the overall system moot, since you can't access them simultaneously.
Again, if you are fooled by the cosmetic differences, that's really on you for not thinking clearly enough.
A B C D E F ------------------------------ A B C D E F
When you realise you can only ever use 7 things from the wheel at the same time, you realise that once damage numbers have been calculated the variety and complexity of builds drops to zero.
As for the example you use with the vampires, that's no different from raid mobs in Molten Core being immune / taking reduced damage from Fire abiliites. It means you are just forced to respec to frost. It actually limits player choice for arbitrary reasons and players don't like that.
>When you realise you can only ever use 7 things from the wheel at the same time
Um, passives? Aside from the ones that modify an active ability, none of the passives have any prerequisites. That means non-pistol/hammer passives can be used in a pistol/hammer build. The passive abilities, when used well, create synergy among the active abilities making them more effective.
And then the game will drop down to 3-4 builds total that everyone will use.
I have never seen, and expect I will never see, any PVP MMO that has not been examined, disected and min/maxed to death resulting in a never ending cycle of balancing + more min/maxing to create a new uber build...rinse & repeat.
This is what bothers most PVP haters and frankly what bothers me about scenario-based, solo, epeen stroking scoreboards and the like. At the risk of sounding too lyrical, imho, this is what eats the soul of MMOs for those of us who truly enjoy them. It turns them into mind-numbing e-sports. I wish that FPS crowd would just stay over there...
I'm looking forward to doing no PvP other than Fusang as a support-healer running with a group of friends. That will be fun. This video and most of the discussion here is about virtual duels. The fact that they're happening in a group scenario zone is irrelevant.
@ ;the OP: So someone figured out that a dual-tank spec with two-button mashing fists/chaos dominates PVP...have fun winning 1-on-1 while that lasts (i.e. pre nerf) and thanks for pointing out some current flaws... I'm sure the devs enjoyed the video too.
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>When you realise you can only ever use 7 things from the wheel at the same time
Um, passives? Aside from the ones that modify an active ability, none of the passives have any prerequisites. That means non-pistol/hammer passives can be used in a pistol/hammer build. The passive abilities, when used well, create synergy among the active abilities making them more effective.
Stop using irrelevant examples to bolster a myth. TSW combat is simplistic, skillless and lacking in depth, and once the minor complexities of picking the right spec are done and the best build is found, everyone will use that 1 build and play the same way because TSW has only one "class".
...
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Then everyone will use the same builds that we found and posted videos about (unless you think people enjoy getting beaten constantly, in my experience, they don't) just like it has happened in every single MMO till now.
And then the game will drop down to 3-4 builds total that everyone will use.
I know it all sounds "mind-blowingly complex" like the flashy wheel, but really, it's all very simple and predictable. See previous games for reference.
Looks like we're slowly making progress here
Up from "everyone will use that 1 build" to "will drop down to 3-4 builds" in 3 pages of arguing...
Careful now, a few pages more and TSW combat may slowly start looking complex...
I still can't see why they want to be here and not in the "real" PvP games with "real" button mashing and "real" 30 keybinds and everything, things that take "real" skill. Probably they're having their asses handed to them by the real e-sport clans in the real e-sport games.
Newsflash - we don't want you here, go there please, play WoW Arena or StarCraft2 or LoL or whatever takes skill for you. Stop saying that our game is crap, but you'll still play it, It does not make sense and obviously it does not look good in your "intelligent, thinking" players CV's. Playing it just to "pwn nubz and show them nubz i'm right" shows a lot of things about your maturity also. Prove us wrong. Prove us that you respect yourselves and your ideas and leave.
It all boils down to whether the game is fun to play for you or not. If it is great, if it's not so be it.
There is alot more to the combat in this game then how many buttons you have to push. Just like the real world most of the strategy comes before you enter the battle.
... did you even attempt to read his original post or did you just click the video and start raging?
The video was not his attempt at showing how to "pwn noobs", it was to demonstrate the bland combat.
Yes. I did. Based on gear and abilities you will do more of the same thing, until you meet an opponent(s) with another strategy that counters that set. He boosted himself up and wrecked faces. Other people could have done the same, but FATE wasn't available the whole time. Only during certain testing hours.
Now it's available the whole time. Maybe he can make a new video and tell people his build and passives that they've been asking for.
For the past week people have encountered this issue with undergeared people checking out PvP during non-scheduled Fusang encounters. Certain combos have been identified already (see the OP video), as well as bugs.
My whole point was he never showed one person that gave him a challenge.
So the question is: Was he being selective in his video? The answer is yes. Many of those players highlighted didn't even know what they were doing. His whole 4k argument is silly as well. QL 10 talismans give you more than 4k health.
When you are taking on undergeared, less experienced players - hitting two buttons and just running around is sufficient.
Any AR/Elementalist QL10 geared opponent THAT KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING, would of eaten his build for lunch.
I agree with the OP. When I played the game I did not notice any "dynamic" combat. I basically stood my ground and spammed my two pistol abilities. If thats all I am going to do, I can save $60 and do it in one of the many other MMO's I have been disappointed with over the last two years.
I think the OP made some strong points and proved it with his video. You fanbois should stop spending so much time nit-picking it and acknowledge that there are issues with this game. If enough people bring the issue forward, it will get resolved and TSW will be a better game with a bigger population. All the denials some of you are making only hurt the game.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
I agree with the OP. When I played the game I did not notice any "dynamic" combat. I basically stood my ground and spammed my two pistol abilities. If thats all I am going to do, I can save $60 and do it in one of the many other MMO's I have been disappointed with over the last two years.
I think the OP made some strong points and proved it with his video. You fanbois should stop spending so much time nit-picking it and acknowledge that there are issues with this game. If enough people bring the issue forward, it will get resolved and TSW will be a better game with a bigger population. All the denials some of you are making only hurt the game.
You made a conscious choice to spam 2 abilities and not look further. It was your choce to put no effort in. I had a few different builds all requiring a combination of 7 actives and 7 passives. I had a deck for group pvp, solo pvp, cc heavy, debuff heavy, more survival, all out dps, and hybrids of the afore mentioned.
I found the more I played with the skill wheel the more rewarding the gameplay was.
Originally posted by Krytycal Ability Cap: Or how TSW rewards you for using boring rotations. Heres the thing most people dont realize yet: due to the homogenization of attacks, passive abilities have a bigger impact on your DPS (and healing to some extent) than the attacks you use. You might think Im bullshitting you. After all how could that be true when abilities like Thors Hammer hit so hard? Well, its actually not that good. People who have done the math will tell you that youre actually better off just using a rotation like the one shown in the video (i.e. frantically spamming two buttons over and over). You can accomplish this with pretty much any two attacks if you know what youre doing. Mines actually not even that good compared to some other mindless rotations Ive seen, but Im a sucker for Chaos and punching people in the face. I guess Im glad the animations are identical in this case.
Edited for length.
Thank you for taking the time to post this, and to make a video backing it up. I've found quite the same to be true, and while critical, you have a very objective view of the game, which is refreshing. It looks like you may have saved one person from wasting money. However, it seems like the majority of people on this forum have either already paid, or are skeptical enough to hold back on this for now. I still appreciate you trying to educate through all the forum pvp.
Reason I kept the paragraph in quote is because I too found this to be especially true. I will also reiterate that your build is indeed not very good. It's decent, but I was doing way more dmg w/ mine and definitely facerolling. You probably had a lot more survivability than mine, though. That said, the main difference with mine is I actually had 5 damage dealers and 2 support skills. The reason I had 5 is because 3 of them I could use w/ no resources (giving me a 2ndary rotation if I got caught w/ my pants down), 2 of them double as CC (coldsnap and cardiac arrest), and 1 procs a debuff my build was based off of (affliction). The other 2 skills were a self heal & cc breaker (invaluable in PvP).
That said, even though my build is more complicated on paper, it still basically boils down to me spamming the same 2-3 buttons tops. The rest I rarely ever needed, and would usually use them cause i was bored w/ the build / spender combo.
- And you are 100% right about passives. My build would be absolute garbage w/ out the passives I have. And this is one of the primary reasons I don't use Thor's Hammer either. It only does ~100 more dmg than Blaze, and yet I can spec Blaze to have 100% crit, and additional crit power, so on average Blaze is actually doing a lot more than Thor's Hammer, has no CD, and costs less resources. I also then don't have to slot a dmg proc CD to make my main source of dmg viable.
A buddy and I tried to mess around w/ as much variety as we could, and basically came to the same conclusion that there really just isn't as much significant variety as we'd hoped. Every weapon seems to have a handful of skills that are just clearly better than the rest, and thus forces you to build around a much smaller skillset. The skill system really fails to utilize a lot of the potential it has to be a really awesome & unique mechanic.
Sadly it's true, I had fun with it for a while, after all what's not to like about aoe kiting (circle staffing). But it was disappointing that so much seemed to play the same. I also we puzzled to find aoe finishers performing better than single target ones often enough. I'm surprised they are this late picking stuff up.
I agree with the OP. When I played the game I did not notice any "dynamic" combat. I basically stood my ground and spammed my two pistol abilities. If thats all I am going to do, I can save $60 and do it in one of the many other MMO's I have been disappointed with over the last two years.
I think the OP made some strong points and proved it with his video. You fanbois should stop spending so much time nit-picking it and acknowledge that there are issues with this game. If enough people bring the issue forward, it will get resolved and TSW will be a better game with a bigger population. All the denials some of you are making only hurt the game.
We "fanboys" played it also. And we love it as it was. It is different and better for most of us. That's the whole deal. There are thousands of games with the same WoW-ish gameplay out there, all aimed to people who want 15 keys combat. This is different. Combat is different, situational, specialized, the complexity comes from the options you have, not from the numbers of keys you can correctly press per second.
The fact that you did not enjoy it 15 minutes after you started to beta test and that you feel combat is "all you are going to do" in TSW, the fact that the game didn't call for you to get into it to learn more abilities to create different decks to use different skills etc makes it not a game for you. I really appreciate the video and the initial poster, he put effort into it but his opinion is very subjective. All he has proven is that he feels the game is not rewarding or challenging enough for him. Let me boost to max level, get the latest Arena gear in WoW and go into battlegrounds with naked people. Bet i can kill everyone using 2 buttons.
If they mainstream this title too and make it play like every other MMO out there, a lot more people will be dissapointed.
I agree with the OP. When I played the game I did not notice any "dynamic" combat. I basically stood my ground and spammed my two pistol abilities. If thats all I am going to do, I can save $60 and do it in one of the many other MMO's I have been disappointed with over the last two years.
I think the OP made some strong points and proved it with his video. You fanbois should stop spending so much time nit-picking it and acknowledge that there are issues with this game. If enough people bring the issue forward, it will get resolved and TSW will be a better game with a bigger population. All the denials some of you are making only hurt the game.
You made a conscious choice to spam 2 abilities and not look further. It was your choce to put no effort in. I had a few different builds all requiring a combination of 7 actives and 7 passives. I had a deck for group pvp, solo pvp, cc heavy, debuff heavy, more survival, all out dps, and hybrids of the afore mentioned.
I found the more I played with the skill wheel the more rewarding the gameplay was.
And by doing so you traded efficiency for flavor as the OP pointed out. There is nothing wrong with that and for most PVE content and lower level PVP you probably are fine. However if you start to do high level PVP or extremely challenging PVE that lack of efficiency is going to start to not only hurt you but your group mates as well.
Actually I think that TSW combat mechanics in it's full glory is bloody sophisticated. I'm a complete casual these days and definitely not someone that could master TSW skill combos but this I can say to haters that this game ain't easy. Especially when getting into higher skill tiers.
Cannot wait when that carbon copy of WoW with a dodge button comes out. Maybe after that some realize that the more playable and interesting MMOs we have the better.
I still can't see why they want to be here and not in the "real" PvP games with "real" button mashing and "real" 30 keybinds and everything, things that take "real" skill. Probably they're having their asses handed to them by the real e-sport clans in the real e-sport games.
Newsflash - we don't want you here, go there please, play WoW Arena or StarCraft2 or LoL or whatever takes skill for you. Stop saying that our game is crap, but you'll still play it, It does not make sense and obviously it does not look good in your "intelligent, thinking" players CV's. Playing it just to "pwn nubz and show them nubz i'm right" shows a lot of things about your maturity also. Prove us wrong. Prove us that you respect yourselves and your ideas and leave.
If you notice those games you listed and others that get picked up for MLG and other tournys have Both pro players that can pawn everyone else AND millions of players. The reason is solid game mechanics, an easy to pick up yet hard to master learning curve.
I face guys I watch play on Tourny streams all the time online in various games, sometimes I win sometimes I lose but I am at a high enough skill ranking to face them. They just practice more and know the game much better than most players.
You need them because they know the game so well, if the game isn't good from both a technical and fun perspective they leave. For some reason games don't have to be popular to attract those players, just good, well polished, with solid mechanics.
Originally posted by VutarSure, I read you making a plea to give TSW time yet I didn't read a reason why we should be willing to do that. Why should we trust a developer that has ignored the issues with combat all through beta even though it has been pointed out to them by numerous people? Yet somehow these same devs are going to magically fix it after release if we just "give it time." My solution to you, sire, is to stop drinking the koolaid.
Wait.. Really?
I said if you didn't like what was currently on the table to not support the devs and not buy it the game.
I never said to support them (by buying it) and wait for it to magically become something you like. Or to trust them. I certainly don't.
This is easy shit man, easy shit. You're reading what you want to read and reading opposition where there is none.
Let me pull out the crayons:
You no like game?
You no buy game.
Done.
There is ZERO reason why you can't WAIT to buy (or not buy) the game until you determine what the devs are (or are not) going to do.
You really have no choice in the matter.
The bigger choice is whether to buy FC stock, short FC stock or pass on FC stock. If voting with your wallet may as well make money out of it!!
I still can't see why they want to be here and not in the "real" PvP games with "real" button mashing and "real" 30 keybinds and everything, things that take "real" skill. Probably they're having their asses handed to them by the real e-sport clans in the real e-sport games.
Newsflash - we don't want you here, go there please, play WoW Arena or StarCraft2 or LoL or whatever takes skill for you. Stop saying that our game is crap, but you'll still play it, It does not make sense and obviously it does not look good in your "intelligent, thinking" players CV's. Playing it just to "pwn nubz and show them nubz i'm right" shows a lot of things about your maturity also. Prove us wrong. Prove us that you respect yourselves and your ideas and leave.
If you notice those games you listed and others that get picked up for MLG and other tournys have Both pro players that can pawn everyone else AND millions of players. The reason is solid game mechanics, an easy to pick up yet hard to master learning curve.
I face guys I watch play on Tourny streams all the time online in various games, sometimes I win sometimes I lose but I am at a high enough skill ranking to face them. They just practice more and know the game much better than most players.
You need them because they know the game so well, if the game isn't good from both a technical and fun perspective they leave. For some reason games don't have to be popular to attract those players, just good, well polished, with solid mechanics.
I don't want ranking, high tier PvP, ruthless PvE to be the focus in TSW. Yes they should exist but focusing the game towards them would be a mistake. I've did that for a few good years, i'm bored to the teeth. There are literally tens of games like these on the market. I don't want this new, interesting, different and fun for many title to be "leet-kidz" oriented also. I also don't want them in my games. The game is how it is. Changing it to turn it into something else because someone likes e-sports is not a good idea and will turn away lots of fans. The main perks of TSW are exactly in being different from anything else: setting, story etc. I've posted those games especially to ask why do this kind of players (i respect them as i respect any other human being) do not go towards those titles and come here trying to change the approach to this title instead, to make it "more fun" for them.
I still can't see why they want to be here and not in the "real" PvP games with "real" button mashing and "real" 30 keybinds and everything, things that take "real" skill. Probably they're having their asses handed to them by the real e-sport clans in the real e-sport games.
Newsflash - we don't want you here, go there please, play WoW Arena or StarCraft2 or LoL or whatever takes skill for you. Stop saying that our game is crap, but you'll still play it, It does not make sense and obviously it does not look good in your "intelligent, thinking" players CV's. Playing it just to "pwn nubz and show them nubz i'm right" shows a lot of things about your maturity also. Prove us wrong. Prove us that you respect yourselves and your ideas and leave.
If you notice those games you listed and others that get picked up for MLG and other tournys have Both pro players that can pawn everyone else AND millions of players. The reason is solid game mechanics, an easy to pick up yet hard to master learning curve.
I face guys I watch play on Tourny streams all the time online in various games, sometimes I win sometimes I lose but I am at a high enough skill ranking to face them. They just practice more and know the game much better than most players.
You need them because they know the game so well, if the game isn't good from both a technical and fun perspective they leave. For some reason games don't have to be popular to attract those players, just good, well polished, with solid mechanics.
I don't want ranking, high tier PvP, ruthless PvE to be the focus in TSW. Yes they should exist but focusing the game towards them would be a mistake. I've did that for a few good years, i'm bored to the teeth. There are literally tens of games like these on the market. I don't want this new, interesting, different and fun for many title to be "leet-kidz" oriented also. I also don't want them in my games. The game is how it is. Changing it to turn it into something else because someone likes e-sports is not a good idea and will turn away lots of fans. The main perks of TSW are exactly in being different from anything else: setting, story etc. I've posted those games especially to ask why do this kind of players (i respect them as i respect any other human being) do not go towards those titles and come here trying to change the approach to this title instead, to make it "more fun" for them.
I can see where your coming from but honestly what will be left to do in the game if they didn't have any of things you stated? All that creates progression and without progression it might as well be a SPG that you play for a 100 hours or so than move on. The most hours I ever put into a SPG game was a fraction of a fraction of what I have poured into a progression based MMO. Without progression of some form there is no holding power.
let's break this down to the simplest possible terms:
Effective (adj.): Adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result.
Efficient (adj.) Performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort.
in this example, the OP, and all his supporters have a valid case, arguing that TSW will eventually boild down to spamming 2-3 buttons and 3-4 build in the name of efficiency. even though he should have named the heavily edited video "how to curb-stomp PvP noobs with the least possible effort", there is still a case to be made for what appears to be a troublesome mechanic for some players, and i appreciate the case made here.
NOW, add the adjective "most" before each term.
"efficient" gains virtually no new meaning. either you are, or you are not.
meanwhile, the term "most effective" becomes an entirely different concept.
the player who properly synergizes passive skills with 7 active skills, will be a much "more effective" player than the "efficient" one. now take two players of equal skill, and our OP is the one facerolled instead.
I agree with the OP. When I played the game I did not notice any "dynamic" combat. I basically stood my ground and spammed my two pistol abilities. If thats all I am going to do, I can save $60 and do it in one of the many other MMO's I have been disappointed with over the last two years.
I think the OP made some strong points and proved it with his video. You fanbois should stop spending so much time nit-picking it and acknowledge that there are issues with this game. If enough people bring the issue forward, it will get resolved and TSW will be a better game with a bigger population. All the denials some of you are making only hurt the game.
You made a conscious choice to spam 2 abilities and not look further. It was your choce to put no effort in. I had a few different builds all requiring a combination of 7 actives and 7 passives. I had a deck for group pvp, solo pvp, cc heavy, debuff heavy, more survival, all out dps, and hybrids of the afore mentioned.
I found the more I played with the skill wheel the more rewarding the gameplay was.
And by doing so you traded efficiency for flavor as the OP pointed out. There is nothing wrong with that and for most PVE content and lower level PVP you probably are fine. However if you start to do high level PVP or extremely challenging PVE that lack of efficiency is going to start to not only hurt you but your group mates as well.
How is identifying that someone is taking a long time to kill and adding debuffs and or more dps not adding efficiency. How is adding cc into your build if people are getting away from you not adding efficiency? Seems to me that I am absolutely being efficient at identifying weaknesses and creating a build to fix them. Seems to me I am reacting to what I am encountering and adapting.
What, high level pvp doesn't involve adapting to your opponents? High level pvp is spamming one builder and one finisher?
Since you brought up pve, the same applies. If the encounter isn't working out as well as you think it should you adapt and make changes. Thats is also what Funcom is going for, that people will communicate and build their groups based on the strengths and weakness of everyone involved.
Its obvious that you and the OP totally missed that.
Comments
An attempt to make this constructive again :
I guess this is a bit of speculation from both side. This footage was taken slightly after then pvp test as far as I can remember. I know that most of the dragons you attack after around 4:00 in the video is QL3-5 players. Yes, you can easily get 5k hp as QL3 with one or two blue talis + some innate hp boost for lowbies + the hp suit (you select suit when you sign up).
I do agree that many players will probably go for this spam approach. This is actually even more trivial with tank spec and blades simply spamming AoE builder and AoE consumer, but there are many ways to sabotage that. It's especially bad when lowbies glace hit them, because a percentage of the hit is also converted into a heal. A simple purge debuff or two will solve that.
I probably have mixed you up with someone using a similar name.
The thing is : DPS wise you can do a lot better using other combinations. I'm also puzzled by how little resistance you get in general. Some people don't even seem to be able to get one single hit on you. This might just be new players with strange builds that have no idea what to do and what skills are available. Maybe they grabbed a predefined deck. Those are mostly horrible for pvp.
For PvE, the rotation you are using is definitely suboptimal, but definitely beneficial in pvp considering how little effort you put into it. Again, the benefit eventually when people figure things out is hard to predict. We're probably both specularing here. I also hope that spamming builders and consumers *in pvp* will not be the ultimate weapon. It might be that defensive chaos/fists give you way too much mitigation compared to damage output (considering chaos is "tank"). Chaos specs with survivability 10 give you a 40%+ absorbed of the next attack if you evade an attack. This his insanely beneficial if a lowbie attacks you. (Purge debuff needed first)
You are right though that dps specced QL10 players can go down almost as fast as a lowbie, but they should be able to bite back pretty hard even if they only live for a few seconds.
I'll actually try out a defensive Chaos/Fist combo later. It's probably in the same league as blade spamming.
It's obvious you think your experiencs in raid finder make you an expert raider in WoW. It does not. Even though the horribly dull heroic DS encounters don't make the best case for that.
I can't wait for you to be in fusang etc getting facerolled by "l33tkids" like me and wondering why. Hint, it's not because we're l33tkid button-mashers with the reaction speed of mongooses on crack, or something like that.
It's because we are thinking, tactical players who play as a team and who have worked out the metagame and found the best builds, which we will use, along with a tight assist train, to melt down bad players in their dozens.
Then everyone will use the same builds that we found and posted videos about (unless you think people enjoy getting beaten constantly, in my experience, they don't) just like it has happened in every single MMO till now.
And then the game will drop down to 3-4 builds total that everyone will use.
I know it all sounds "mind-blowingly complex" like the flashy wheel, but really, it's all very simple and predictable. See previous games for reference.
I'd love to hear how you did rag heroic seeds without timers... oh right. And of course the only example is Ultraxion, one of the worst fights of the worst raiding tier ever designed.
@Greyhooff...
please take your obnoxious attention-grabbing signature to heart.
you can throw all the numbers and formulas into your posts as you like, but 99% of your analysis is based on pure subjectivity, personal preference and comparisons to GW2 (among others). stop trying to hide behind statistics to prop up arguments that either have no basis in fact ot haven't been substantiated through enough testing. clearly, not all of the skills are as useful as others, but trying to distill the entire wheel down to a only a few truly effective builds is nonsense.
quite frankly, it is clear you don't like the combat. i certainly i appreciate lively debate, but can you please leave well enough alone at this point and move on?...go stress test GW2 or make use of 30 hotkeys in another game for god's sake if that's the kind of thing you enjoy.
>When you realise you can only ever use 7 things from the wheel at the same time
Um, passives? Aside from the ones that modify an active ability, none of the passives have any prerequisites. That means non-pistol/hammer passives can be used in a pistol/hammer build. The passive abilities, when used well, create synergy among the active abilities making them more effective.
I have never seen, and expect I will never see, any PVP MMO that has not been examined, disected and min/maxed to death resulting in a never ending cycle of balancing + more min/maxing to create a new uber build...rinse & repeat.
This is what bothers most PVP haters and frankly what bothers me about scenario-based, solo, epeen stroking scoreboards and the like. At the risk of sounding too lyrical, imho, this is what eats the soul of MMOs for those of us who truly enjoy them. It turns them into mind-numbing e-sports. I wish that FPS crowd would just stay over there...
I'm looking forward to doing no PvP other than Fusang as a support-healer running with a group of friends. That will be fun. This video and most of the discussion here is about virtual duels. The fact that they're happening in a group scenario zone is irrelevant.
@ ;the OP: So someone figured out that a dual-tank spec with two-button mashing fists/chaos dominates PVP...have fun winning 1-on-1 while that lasts (i.e. pre nerf) and thanks for pointing out some current flaws... I'm sure the devs enjoyed the video too.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
truth
Looks like we're slowly making progress here
Up from "everyone will use that 1 build" to "will drop down to 3-4 builds" in 3 pages of arguing...
Careful now, a few pages more and TSW combat may slowly start looking complex...
I still can't see why they want to be here and not in the "real" PvP games with "real" button mashing and "real" 30 keybinds and everything, things that take "real" skill. Probably they're having their asses handed to them by the real e-sport clans in the real e-sport games.
Newsflash - we don't want you here, go there please, play WoW Arena or StarCraft2 or LoL or whatever takes skill for you. Stop saying that our game is crap, but you'll still play it, It does not make sense and obviously it does not look good in your "intelligent, thinking" players CV's. Playing it just to "pwn nubz and show them nubz i'm right" shows a lot of things about your maturity also. Prove us wrong. Prove us that you respect yourselves and your ideas and leave.
Krytycal : What passives are you using?
It all boils down to whether the game is fun to play for you or not. If it is great, if it's not so be it.
There is alot more to the combat in this game then how many buttons you have to push. Just like the real world most of the strategy comes before you enter the battle.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
... did you even attempt to read his original post or did you just click the video and start raging?
The video was not his attempt at showing how to "pwn noobs", it was to demonstrate the bland combat.
Yes. I did. Based on gear and abilities you will do more of the same thing, until you meet an opponent(s) with another strategy that counters that set. He boosted himself up and wrecked faces. Other people could have done the same, but FATE wasn't available the whole time. Only during certain testing hours.
Now it's available the whole time. Maybe he can make a new video and tell people his build and passives that they've been asking for.
For the past week people have encountered this issue with undergeared people checking out PvP during non-scheduled Fusang encounters. Certain combos have been identified already (see the OP video), as well as bugs.
My whole point was he never showed one person that gave him a challenge.
So the question is: Was he being selective in his video? The answer is yes. Many of those players highlighted didn't even know what they were doing. His whole 4k argument is silly as well. QL 10 talismans give you more than 4k health.
When you are taking on undergeared, less experienced players - hitting two buttons and just running around is sufficient.
Any AR/Elementalist QL10 geared opponent THAT KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING, would of eaten his build for lunch.
I agree with the OP. When I played the game I did not notice any "dynamic" combat. I basically stood my ground and spammed my two pistol abilities. If thats all I am going to do, I can save $60 and do it in one of the many other MMO's I have been disappointed with over the last two years.
I think the OP made some strong points and proved it with his video. You fanbois should stop spending so much time nit-picking it and acknowledge that there are issues with this game. If enough people bring the issue forward, it will get resolved and TSW will be a better game with a bigger population. All the denials some of you are making only hurt the game.
You made a conscious choice to spam 2 abilities and not look further. It was your choce to put no effort in. I had a few different builds all requiring a combination of 7 actives and 7 passives. I had a deck for group pvp, solo pvp, cc heavy, debuff heavy, more survival, all out dps, and hybrids of the afore mentioned.
I found the more I played with the skill wheel the more rewarding the gameplay was.
Edited for length.
Thank you for taking the time to post this, and to make a video backing it up. I've found quite the same to be true, and while critical, you have a very objective view of the game, which is refreshing. It looks like you may have saved one person from wasting money. However, it seems like the majority of people on this forum have either already paid, or are skeptical enough to hold back on this for now. I still appreciate you trying to educate through all the forum pvp.
Reason I kept the paragraph in quote is because I too found this to be especially true. I will also reiterate that your build is indeed not very good. It's decent, but I was doing way more dmg w/ mine and definitely facerolling. You probably had a lot more survivability than mine, though. That said, the main difference with mine is I actually had 5 damage dealers and 2 support skills. The reason I had 5 is because 3 of them I could use w/ no resources (giving me a 2ndary rotation if I got caught w/ my pants down), 2 of them double as CC (coldsnap and cardiac arrest), and 1 procs a debuff my build was based off of (affliction). The other 2 skills were a self heal & cc breaker (invaluable in PvP).
That said, even though my build is more complicated on paper, it still basically boils down to me spamming the same 2-3 buttons tops. The rest I rarely ever needed, and would usually use them cause i was bored w/ the build / spender combo.
- And you are 100% right about passives. My build would be absolute garbage w/ out the passives I have. And this is one of the primary reasons I don't use Thor's Hammer either. It only does ~100 more dmg than Blaze, and yet I can spec Blaze to have 100% crit, and additional crit power, so on average Blaze is actually doing a lot more than Thor's Hammer, has no CD, and costs less resources. I also then don't have to slot a dmg proc CD to make my main source of dmg viable.
A buddy and I tried to mess around w/ as much variety as we could, and basically came to the same conclusion that there really just isn't as much significant variety as we'd hoped. Every weapon seems to have a handful of skills that are just clearly better than the rest, and thus forces you to build around a much smaller skillset. The skill system really fails to utilize a lot of the potential it has to be a really awesome & unique mechanic.
Sadly it's true, I had fun with it for a while, after all what's not to like about aoe kiting (circle staffing). But it was disappointing that so much seemed to play the same. I also we puzzled to find aoe finishers performing better than single target ones often enough. I'm surprised they are this late picking stuff up.We "fanboys" played it also. And we love it as it was. It is different and better for most of us. That's the whole deal. There are thousands of games with the same WoW-ish gameplay out there, all aimed to people who want 15 keys combat. This is different. Combat is different, situational, specialized, the complexity comes from the options you have, not from the numbers of keys you can correctly press per second.
The fact that you did not enjoy it 15 minutes after you started to beta test and that you feel combat is "all you are going to do" in TSW, the fact that the game didn't call for you to get into it to learn more abilities to create different decks to use different skills etc makes it not a game for you. I really appreciate the video and the initial poster, he put effort into it but his opinion is very subjective. All he has proven is that he feels the game is not rewarding or challenging enough for him. Let me boost to max level, get the latest Arena gear in WoW and go into battlegrounds with naked people. Bet i can kill everyone using 2 buttons.
If they mainstream this title too and make it play like every other MMO out there, a lot more people will be dissapointed.
Actually I think that TSW combat mechanics in it's full glory is bloody sophisticated. I'm a complete casual these days and definitely not someone that could master TSW skill combos but this I can say to haters that this game ain't easy. Especially when getting into higher skill tiers.
Cannot wait when that carbon copy of WoW with a dodge button comes out. Maybe after that some realize that the more playable and interesting MMOs we have the better.
If you notice those games you listed and others that get picked up for MLG and other tournys have Both pro players that can pawn everyone else AND millions of players. The reason is solid game mechanics, an easy to pick up yet hard to master learning curve.
I face guys I watch play on Tourny streams all the time online in various games, sometimes I win sometimes I lose but I am at a high enough skill ranking to face them. They just practice more and know the game much better than most players.
You need them because they know the game so well, if the game isn't good from both a technical and fun perspective they leave. For some reason games don't have to be popular to attract those players, just good, well polished, with solid mechanics.
Wait.. Really?
I said if you didn't like what was currently on the table to not support the devs and not buy it the game.
I never said to support them (by buying it) and wait for it to magically become something you like. Or to trust them. I certainly don't.
This is easy shit man, easy shit. You're reading what you want to read and reading opposition where there is none.
Let me pull out the crayons:
You no like game?
You no buy game.
Done.
There is ZERO reason why you can't WAIT to buy (or not buy) the game until you determine what the devs are (or are not) going to do.
You really have no choice in the matter.
The bigger choice is whether to buy FC stock, short FC stock or pass on FC stock. If voting with your wallet may as well make money out of it!!I don't want ranking, high tier PvP, ruthless PvE to be the focus in TSW. Yes they should exist but focusing the game towards them would be a mistake. I've did that for a few good years, i'm bored to the teeth. There are literally tens of games like these on the market. I don't want this new, interesting, different and fun for many title to be "leet-kidz" oriented also. I also don't want them in my games. The game is how it is. Changing it to turn it into something else because someone likes e-sports is not a good idea and will turn away lots of fans. The main perks of TSW are exactly in being different from anything else: setting, story etc. I've posted those games especially to ask why do this kind of players (i respect them as i respect any other human being) do not go towards those titles and come here trying to change the approach to this title instead, to make it "more fun" for them.
I can see where your coming from but honestly what will be left to do in the game if they didn't have any of things you stated? All that creates progression and without progression it might as well be a SPG that you play for a 100 hours or so than move on. The most hours I ever put into a SPG game was a fraction of a fraction of what I have poured into a progression based MMO. Without progression of some form there is no holding power.
let's break this down to the simplest possible terms:
How is identifying that someone is taking a long time to kill and adding debuffs and or more dps not adding efficiency. How is adding cc into your build if people are getting away from you not adding efficiency? Seems to me that I am absolutely being efficient at identifying weaknesses and creating a build to fix them. Seems to me I am reacting to what I am encountering and adapting.
What, high level pvp doesn't involve adapting to your opponents? High level pvp is spamming one builder and one finisher?
Since you brought up pve, the same applies. If the encounter isn't working out as well as you think it should you adapt and make changes. Thats is also what Funcom is going for, that people will communicate and build their groups based on the strengths and weakness of everyone involved.
Its obvious that you and the OP totally missed that.