Everyone keep saying that, ive seen this similar statement several times but nobody has explained how having an auction house, means the game is no longer a multiplayer MMORPG anymore.
Do you feel close to the McDonalds employee just because you are greeted by their smile and a name tag with just their first name?
How about walmart, think you know all the staff like family because someone is there to greet you when you arrive through the giant sliding doors?
Do you think Amazon is a plague on society because i can buy any thing i want, any time i want, anywhere i want and never have to interact with another living soul besides the UPS driver?
What youre saying is silly.
Excellent explanation of why this "no auction house favors socializing" concept is nonsense.
Originally posted by Gdemami
Abundance of loot, vertical progression and no decay. AH isn't a factor.
And excellent explanation of how to REALLY fix the perceived "problem". Instead of making mobs drop the best loot, make the best equipment available ONLY from player crafters. Make the equipment decay over time. As a consequence of decays, materials to craft equipment should not be too hard to get either. There you go, you have a living, breathing economy in a game that is not based on gear inflation.
Not to mention how retarded it is for a giant dragon to drop a man sized breastplate in pristine condition.
Crafting centric MMO's are really boring. Call me silly but I like to see shiny loot on a new kill. It harkens back to my very first MMO, Asheron's Call. I'd much prefer a loot based economy where crafting is about enhancing and upgrading world drops. I hate not having RNG in loot distribution but I also hate having gear assigned to specific mobs. It's why I detest raiding so much. What I want is the Diablo/Asheron's Call style of loot system but for now I'll have to settle for this.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by HATUEY This really sucks. Since l don't really like joining a guild into later on the game. If this doesn't change l'm canceling my order. Plain and simple.
Oh look another I'm quitting post, always wonder if those who post these actually ever had any intention in ever playing the game. So what is so horrible about joining a guild early on? Your not required to do anything different? These are mmos they are made to socialize and group up? Guilds are made to help one another, this game takes it a step further and helps sell/trade/barter. So because there is no AH your going to cancel your pre order a pre order you may never have pre ordered ?
Because of this I'm going to preorder to PC also (already did for xb1)...looks like your canceling just got washed out oh well...
Damn, you really don't like it when someone doesn't buy the game you like.
Someone's going to do what someone always does. When a game lacks a system that it should have, someone will create a 3rd party app or website that will function as best it can. I remember similar sites back in Anarchy Online. I suspect, if players find the current system in ESO less convenient than an auction system, this will happen here too and thus force ESO to implement one.
Players will always find a way to overcome or circumvent barriers that Games put in their way, ZOS will in all probability have to implement measures to open up trade in the game, because if they don't then its inevitable that the slack will be taken up by a third party, and in all probability it will involve RMT. Thats not good for anyone long term.
And for those who think that the 'lone trader' will be able to trade outside of the 'guild shops' the answer is no, they won't, because all that will happen, is that people spamming chat touting their crafted gear, will end up on peoples ignore lists, this always happens, and has happened in other MMO's. A corollary of this is that the 'crafter' then struggles to join groups because if even one member of the existing group has them on their ignore list, then they can't join, and they have a much harder time doing anything else in the game. This will mean that trading outside of guilds will be problematic if not impossible without becoming a pariah.
The most immersive system is EvE's. Depending on the skills you have trained, buying from anywhere in the system is very restrictive.
Think that system works very well.
Global AH just feel like NPC vendors.
Why don't the developers, for convenience, allow ALL items to be sold by NPC's?It would FEEL no different than a global AH if an NPC randomly added amazing items to their shop.
Most economies in games with no item wear are crap economies to be part of.
Come one Zenimax, just let all gear be purchasable from NPCs.
Originally posted by Xblade724 It shouldn't be easy to insta-sell an item .. welcome to a REAL mmo, kiddies. If QQ, go back to world of ezwincraft.
World of Warcraft does not have 'insta-sell' what it does have is a convenient and accessible AH that doesn't punish the player. That doesn't mean things put up for sale are always sold either, sometimes it can take days if not weeks to sell an item unless you price it correctly, and its an item that is actually in demand. Eve Online has an even more complex trading system, well systems because there is the 'market' where items are exactly what they appear to be, and then there is the slightly murky 'contracts' which is almost totally unregulated
The quality and the 'enjoyment' of crafting in any game, is directly and unavoidably related to the ability to trade within that game, whatever restricts the one, will negatively affect the other.
Originally posted by HATUEY This really sucks. Since l don't really like joining a guild into later on the game. If this doesn't change l'm canceling my order. Plain and simple.
Oh look another I'm quitting post, always wonder if those who post these actually ever had any intention in ever playing the game. So what is so horrible about joining a guild early on? Your not required to do anything different? These are mmos they are made to socialize and group up? Guilds are made to help one another, this game takes it a step further and helps sell/trade/barter. So because there is no AH your going to cancel your pre order a pre order you may never have pre ordered ?
Because of this I'm going to preorder to PC also (already did for xb1)...looks like your canceling just got washed out oh well...
Damn, you really don't like it when someone doesn't buy the game you like.
Oh I could careless what other buy or don't buy not sure how you came up with that brilliant conclusion from that post. I just questioned the legitimacy of a post quitting over this. I then went on and asked a few question to better understand their point of view.
Mhm. Is that why you tried to show him how his "cancelling just got washed out" by your own purchase? Because you don't care?
You even accused him of lying about having pre-ordered at all. If he doesn't like the system, there is no reason why he shouldn't cancel his pre-order.
Meh, I'm sure you were just trying to understand their point of view. Seems legit.
The quality and the 'enjoyment' of crafting in any game, is directly and unavoidably related to the ability to trade within that game, whatever restricts the one, will negatively affect the other.
The system is also discouraging smaller guilds/familial guilds, as colleteral.
I seriously can't understand why people would want to go back to a system like this at all, It was completely inefficient and an absolute waste of time. To me this is the equivalent of saying "To hell with cell phones because its just too damn convenient, lets all go back to land lines... no wait! lets go even further because it takes the face to face contact out of communicating, we should get rid of phones all together so we can force people to talk to one another" lol.
Why would you get rid of a system that works and is a direct evolution of that kind of tired, tedious system? There was a reason that global AHs were created in the first place because people wanted to actually play the game and not stand around for hours spamming chat channels or going to websites to sell the most basic crap. I don't have time for that kind of nonsense, even in games with this system (Eve Online) you at least have a legitimate reason for it because about 90% of all items are created by players and cannot be found from drops from killing enemies.
Is funny how some people get when they don't agree with your opinion. Specially about a video game. Everybody is entitled to their opinion good or bad. It doesn't matter if you agree or not. But when they insult you over it, just shows how inmature you really are.
In general, forcing a player to use an unfriendly system to alter their behavior (in this case, force "social interaction") leads to a player quitting the game and not the desired result of altered behavior. If the designers feel that this is a core feature of the game they envision, then this is a necessary loss, but it still reduces the overall target market.
I will make sure I use a disclaimer next time I use sarcasm in a post on the internet sorry if it offended you.
I didn't accuse him of anything I questioned his legitimacy over quitting over this . I'm sure everyone on here is always 100% honest and truthful. Again sorry for offending you
I was trying to understand his point of view, again sorry for offending you.
Very nice of you to come to his/her defensive very admirable of you.
Yeah, "questioning someone's legitimacy" doesn't mean you are accusing them of possibly lying. Just like "questioning someone's intelligence" doesn't mean you are accusing someone of being unintelligent, amirite?
I think this system will annoy alot of goldsellers who profit from AH botting.
Just saying...
Gold sellers are the ones most likely to master the system and then find some way to automate most of it. It will annoy people with nothing to gain. People who are making money off the system will simply figure out ways to work the system.
Originally posted by Xblade724 It shouldn't be easy to insta-sell an item .. welcome to a REAL mmo, kiddies. If QQ, go back to world of ezwincraft.
World of Warcraft does not have 'insta-sell' what it does have is a convenient and accessible AH that doesn't punish the player. That doesn't mean things put up for sale are always sold either, sometimes it can take days if not weeks to sell an item unless you price it correctly, and its an item that is actually in demand. Eve Online has an even more complex trading system, well systems because there is the 'market' where items are exactly what they appear to be, and then there is the slightly murky 'contracts' which is almost totally unregulated
The quality and the 'enjoyment' of crafting in any game, is directly and unavoidably related to the ability to trade within that game, whatever restricts the one, will negatively affect the other.
Oh WoW is by far the easiest game to sell stuff. There is an addon that will price your stuff for you, there is an app for your phone that allows you to sell stuff from work it also sets the price for you. It's all convenient, very accessible and extremely easy to sell stuff in wow takes almost zero effort on your part.
Which just highlights how important trading is to players, that Blizzard was willing to accommodate them in that fashion with increased access and functionality. The question here, and remains, what incentive is there to be a crafter if there are so many hurdles that the player has to overcome, or be completely blocked from even. why would that be enjoyable? Trading within games has evolved for a reason, its because players demand it, want it, use it, and now expect it, that if you take those things away, or not provide them in the first place, that the number of players the game will appeal to, will inevitably become that much smaller.
So i am going to have to join some big market oriented guild if i want to make any money. Or sit in town circa 2000 everquest 1 days and spam WTS ********* for hours on end?
Talk about 1 step forward 2 steps back. I dont like this idea of guilds run marketplaces and requiring control of pvp points to facilitate this.
I dont want to join a guild, i also dont want to be completely broke which is what it sounds like will happen if i dont join a guild.
And with all this whine, then perhaps you should consider if you even want to play the game?
One option that I think could have worked pretty well is tying a broker or auction house to the campaigns. That way they avoid the megaserver issues and campaign wide economies could be built.
I actually read through the entire thing since my last post, and had a buttload of multi-quotes, which all got lost when I finally came to writing So screw it...
Overall, the bottom line is NOBODY knows what is going to happen. Everything here has been one person or another's opinion.
I can see some of Zenimax' reasoning, trying to promote more guild-oriented play. You can see it with the guild keep capturing, you can see it with the outrageous (for a small guild) numbers of members needed to even have access to the guild store, and you can see it through guild stores being accessible in Cyrodiil if a guild owns a keep.
I've played games where there was NO AH, I've played games like Lineage 2 where there was nothing BUT player stores, and obviously I've played games where there was an AH. This is a new twist, so I'm simply curious to see how it plays out.
What I would LIKE to see is guilds becoming known for having a good Guild Store. That crafters flock to these guilds and sell their wares, promoting not only their name as crafters, but the guild for offering reasonable prices. Yes people will be teleporting from keep to keep to see the best prices, but the fact that keep very well may fall to the enemy makes things quite interesting.
Guilds where their guild store is out to screw people will gain a bad enough reputation people will simply avoid their keep and not even shop at their guild stores, so I can see how this would eliminate price gouging, particularly on the high end. Guilds selling items cheaply will also gain a reputation and whenever they own a keep, I can see their guild stores selling out rather quickly.
Again, it's all second-guessing until we see things play out, but I think this method puts things more in players, and guilds overall, hands. Reputation is a funny thing in a social game, and as I said, guilds with bad reputation are going to get known on a megaserver...and even them owning a castle may not be worth it if they develop a bad reputation for gouging the public at large in their store.
Is it an inconvenience? Hell yes...but I am not making any final decisions until a few months into the game and we see how it all pans out...
I think this system will annoy alot of goldsellers who profit from AH botting.
Just saying...
Gold sellers are the ones most likely to master the system and then find some way to automate most of it. It will annoy people with nothing to gain. People who are making money off the system will simply figure out ways to work the system.
The more restrictions placed on players on in game trading, the more RMT traders will profit, they are probably watching this with interest because it may mean they get to make far more profit than just selling 'gold'. What for instance would happen, if the best craftable items in game were widely available for cash from a variety of websites external to ZOS, if players have the dubious choice of trying to find a guild shop to sell them a set of armour for several thousand gold, or to buy it from an RMT trader for $4 instead, which are they likely to use, especially if the RMT trader is easy access.
Some game features encourage RMT trading rather than discourage it, and the harder you make the one, the more appealing becomes the other.
Originally posted by Xblade724 It shouldn't be easy to insta-sell an item .. welcome to a REAL mmo, kiddies. If QQ, go back to world of ezwincraft.
World of Warcraft does not have 'insta-sell' what it does have is a convenient and accessible AH that doesn't punish the player. That doesn't mean things put up for sale are always sold either, sometimes it can take days if not weeks to sell an item unless you price it correctly, and its an item that is actually in demand. Eve Online has an even more complex trading system, well systems because there is the 'market' where items are exactly what they appear to be, and then there is the slightly murky 'contracts' which is almost totally unregulated
The quality and the 'enjoyment' of crafting in any game, is directly and unavoidably related to the ability to trade within that game, whatever restricts the one, will negatively affect the other.
Oh WoW is by far the easiest game to sell stuff. There is an addon that will price your stuff for you, there is an app for your phone that allows you to sell stuff from work it also sets the price for you. It's all convenient, very accessible and extremely easy to sell stuff in wow takes almost zero effort on your part.
Which just highlights how important trading is to players, that Blizzard was willing to accommodate them in that fashion with increased access and functionality. The question here, and remains, what incentive is there to be a crafter if there are so many hurdles that the player has to overcome, or be completely blocked from even. why would that be enjoyable? Trading within games has evolved for a reason, its because players demand it, want it, use it, and now expect it, that if you take those things away, or not provide them in the first place, that the number of players the game will appeal to, will inevitably become that much smaller.
I agree. Look at GW2. The game has a good crafting system. In and of itself, it's pretty comprehensive. But due to the state of the economy, and power traders, most items have almost no value, it actually costs less to buy an item already crafted than it does to buy the raw materials to make it. Along with that, if one has the raw materials, it makes more sense to sell them and buy the finished product and pocket the savings. The only reason to craft in GW2 is to level or to make your own ascended gear.
I look at a system like this and I have to ask, how are they going to stop a few ambitious power traders from dominating the markets?
If a game's economy is not well balanced with the game's crafting, the game will suffer as a result.
Originally posted by killion81 In general, forcing a player to use an unfriendly system to alter their behavior (in this case, force "social interaction") leads to a player quitting the game and not the desired result of altered behavior. If the designers feel that this is a core feature of the game they envision, then this is a necessary loss, but it still reduces the overall target market.
Every choice of a game mechanic results in attracting some players and losing other players. Choose skill based instead of level based and you attract and push away players. There are pretty much no universally accepted game mechanics.
What we have here is a set of mechanics that will attract a set of players. The developer isn't trying to modify player behavior yet. That doesn't happen until later when they add a global auction house or a trade forum or something.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I understand that the easiest thing to do is compare it to WoW or GW2. The fact is every zone is split into hundreds of instances. It will be extremely difficult for a "power trader" to run any kind of market, because the market will solely depend on who is in their instance. Most of the trading will come from guilds who stake claims in Cyrodil Keeps. Even then, I don't think people will be changing their campaign or sitting in queue to go shopping.
Most people will probably exhibit some sort of loyalty to people they shop with previously. People will be in large guilds with lots of craft, so you will easily be able to turn to your guilds to find crafted items. It will emulate a local business.
Its going to be just fine, there is a lot of unnecessary panic in this thread.
Comments
Crafting centric MMO's are really boring. Call me silly but I like to see shiny loot on a new kill. It harkens back to my very first MMO, Asheron's Call. I'd much prefer a loot based economy where crafting is about enhancing and upgrading world drops. I hate not having RNG in loot distribution but I also hate having gear assigned to specific mobs. It's why I detest raiding so much. What I want is the Diablo/Asheron's Call style of loot system but for now I'll have to settle for this.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Damn, you really don't like it when someone doesn't buy the game you like.
Players will always find a way to overcome or circumvent barriers that Games put in their way, ZOS will in all probability have to implement measures to open up trade in the game, because if they don't then its inevitable that the slack will be taken up by a third party, and in all probability it will involve RMT. Thats not good for anyone long term.
And for those who think that the 'lone trader' will be able to trade outside of the 'guild shops' the answer is no, they won't, because all that will happen, is that people spamming chat touting their crafted gear, will end up on peoples ignore lists, this always happens, and has happened in other MMO's. A corollary of this is that the 'crafter' then struggles to join groups because if even one member of the existing group has them on their ignore list, then they can't join, and they have a much harder time doing anything else in the game. This will mean that trading outside of guilds will be problematic if not impossible without becoming a pariah.
---------------------------
Former EQ1 Rallos Zek (PvP)
Ascendant Chronei Immortal of Rallos Zek
(Now @ Prexus)
The most immersive system is EvE's. Depending on the skills you have trained, buying from anywhere in the system is very restrictive.
Think that system works very well.
Global AH just feel like NPC vendors.
Why don't the developers, for convenience, allow ALL items to be sold by NPC's?It would FEEL no different than a global AH if an NPC randomly added amazing items to their shop.
Most economies in games with no item wear are crap economies to be part of.
Come one Zenimax, just let all gear be purchasable from NPCs.
PEOPLE WANT CONVENIENCE.
World of Warcraft does not have 'insta-sell' what it does have is a convenient and accessible AH that doesn't punish the player. That doesn't mean things put up for sale are always sold either, sometimes it can take days if not weeks to sell an item unless you price it correctly, and its an item that is actually in demand. Eve Online has an even more complex trading system, well systems because there is the 'market' where items are exactly what they appear to be, and then there is the slightly murky 'contracts' which is almost totally unregulated
The quality and the 'enjoyment' of crafting in any game, is directly and unavoidably related to the ability to trade within that game, whatever restricts the one, will negatively affect the other.
Mhm. Is that why you tried to show him how his "cancelling just got washed out" by your own purchase? Because you don't care?
You even accused him of lying about having pre-ordered at all. If he doesn't like the system, there is no reason why he shouldn't cancel his pre-order.
Meh, I'm sure you were just trying to understand their point of view. Seems legit.
The system is also discouraging smaller guilds/familial guilds, as colleteral.
Better yet you even pay for this barbaric way of trading every month!
I seriously can't understand why people would want to go back to a system like this at all, It was completely inefficient and an absolute waste of time. To me this is the equivalent of saying "To hell with cell phones because its just too damn convenient, lets all go back to land lines... no wait! lets go even further because it takes the face to face contact out of communicating, we should get rid of phones all together so we can force people to talk to one another" lol.
Why would you get rid of a system that works and is a direct evolution of that kind of tired, tedious system? There was a reason that global AHs were created in the first place because people wanted to actually play the game and not stand around for hours spamming chat channels or going to websites to sell the most basic crap. I don't have time for that kind of nonsense, even in games with this system (Eve Online) you at least have a legitimate reason for it because about 90% of all items are created by players and cannot be found from drops from killing enemies.
HEAVEN OR HELL
Duel 1
Lets ROCK!
Yeah, "questioning someone's legitimacy" doesn't mean you are accusing them of possibly lying. Just like "questioning someone's intelligence" doesn't mean you are accusing someone of being unintelligent, amirite?
I accept your apology. Both of them equally.
I think this system will annoy alot of goldsellers who profit from AH botting.
Just saying...
Agreed!!!
Gold sellers are the ones most likely to master the system and then find some way to automate most of it. It will annoy people with nothing to gain. People who are making money off the system will simply figure out ways to work the system.
Which just highlights how important trading is to players, that Blizzard was willing to accommodate them in that fashion with increased access and functionality. The question here, and remains, what incentive is there to be a crafter if there are so many hurdles that the player has to overcome, or be completely blocked from even. why would that be enjoyable? Trading within games has evolved for a reason, its because players demand it, want it, use it, and now expect it, that if you take those things away, or not provide them in the first place, that the number of players the game will appeal to, will inevitably become that much smaller.
And with all this whine, then perhaps you should consider if you even want to play the game?
No, you'll just get an endless stream of hacked accounts spamming their websites day in and day out
Holy crap this thread exploded overnight!
I actually read through the entire thing since my last post, and had a buttload of multi-quotes, which all got lost when I finally came to writing
So screw it...
Overall, the bottom line is NOBODY knows what is going to happen. Everything here has been one person or another's opinion.
I can see some of Zenimax' reasoning, trying to promote more guild-oriented play. You can see it with the guild keep capturing, you can see it with the outrageous (for a small guild) numbers of members needed to even have access to the guild store, and you can see it through guild stores being accessible in Cyrodiil if a guild owns a keep.
I've played games where there was NO AH, I've played games like Lineage 2 where there was nothing BUT player stores, and obviously I've played games where there was an AH. This is a new twist, so I'm simply curious to see how it plays out.
What I would LIKE to see is guilds becoming known for having a good Guild Store. That crafters flock to these guilds and sell their wares, promoting not only their name as crafters, but the guild for offering reasonable prices. Yes people will be teleporting from keep to keep to see the best prices, but the fact that keep very well may fall to the enemy makes things quite interesting.
Guilds where their guild store is out to screw people will gain a bad enough reputation people will simply avoid their keep and not even shop at their guild stores, so I can see how this would eliminate price gouging, particularly on the high end. Guilds selling items cheaply will also gain a reputation and whenever they own a keep, I can see their guild stores selling out rather quickly.
Again, it's all second-guessing until we see things play out, but I think this method puts things more in players, and guilds overall, hands. Reputation is a funny thing in a social game, and as I said, guilds with bad reputation are going to get known on a megaserver...and even them owning a castle may not be worth it if they develop a bad reputation for gouging the public at large in their store.
Is it an inconvenience? Hell yes...but I am not making any final decisions until a few months into the game and we see how it all pans out...
The more restrictions placed on players on in game trading, the more RMT traders will profit, they are probably watching this with interest because it may mean they get to make far more profit than just selling 'gold'. What for instance would happen, if the best craftable items in game were widely available for cash from a variety of websites external to ZOS, if players have the dubious choice of trying to find a guild shop to sell them a set of armour for several thousand gold, or to buy it from an RMT trader for $4 instead, which are they likely to use, especially if the RMT trader is easy access.
Some game features encourage RMT trading rather than discourage it, and the harder you make the one, the more appealing becomes the other.
I agree. Look at GW2. The game has a good crafting system. In and of itself, it's pretty comprehensive. But due to the state of the economy, and power traders, most items have almost no value, it actually costs less to buy an item already crafted than it does to buy the raw materials to make it. Along with that, if one has the raw materials, it makes more sense to sell them and buy the finished product and pocket the savings. The only reason to craft in GW2 is to level or to make your own ascended gear.
I look at a system like this and I have to ask, how are they going to stop a few ambitious power traders from dominating the markets?
If a game's economy is not well balanced with the game's crafting, the game will suffer as a result.
Every choice of a game mechanic results in attracting some players and losing other players. Choose skill based instead of level based and you attract and push away players. There are pretty much no universally accepted game mechanics.
What we have here is a set of mechanics that will attract a set of players. The developer isn't trying to modify player behavior yet. That doesn't happen until later when they add a global auction house or a trade forum or something.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I understand that the easiest thing to do is compare it to WoW or GW2. The fact is every zone is split into hundreds of instances. It will be extremely difficult for a "power trader" to run any kind of market, because the market will solely depend on who is in their instance. Most of the trading will come from guilds who stake claims in Cyrodil Keeps. Even then, I don't think people will be changing their campaign or sitting in queue to go shopping.
Most people will probably exhibit some sort of loyalty to people they shop with previously. People will be in large guilds with lots of craft, so you will easily be able to turn to your guilds to find crafted items. It will emulate a local business.
Its going to be just fine, there is a lot of unnecessary panic in this thread.