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Why is it so hard to get PvP with PvE or vice versa to work?
Lazzaro
Member UncommonPosts: 548
I'm sure the answer is because it's hard to balance, or people either like one or the other in their MMO.
But, one thing I dislike the most in most modern MMO's is the separation of PvP from PvE. I hate instanced PvP because it feels like I'm play a separate game which to me voids the whole point of an MMO world. Games like UO, AC1 (DT) and even SWG to an extant had open world PvP with no separation of the two, and these game gave me the most fun.
I just wish more MMO's would do this, and from what I'm hearing EQN will be , or at least I hope so.
/endrant
Comments
Alot of people either dont want anything to do with PvP when there out PvEing getting one shot while fighting mobs doesnt appeal to alot of people because they never develop the skill of watching there back while PvEing because they just flat out dont want PvP while there doing other thing, me on the other hand adore open world PvP keeps you on your toes while farming mobs it add unpredicatability to the game which is amazing thing and i hopeing that EQN will offer open world PvP (atleast give us some PvP servers pref with a variety of rule sets on them too)
SoE is originaly known for having muiltipul PvP ruleset servers and seem like they wont disapoint to much with EQN i hope so im hoping on somthing food on their part since Landmark/EQN feature they announced so far will offer so much more in the PvP departments, Guild cities and Guild Wars for land control a good possibilty, expecialy with storybrick giving players to edit NPC they could make to say kill anyone from X guild or X race on sight could make for intresting racial and guild warfare.
I have to agree with sanchi on this. More then balancing issues people just don't like getting ganked. It is never fun to be out doing what you planned to do just to have some guy come up and 1 or 2 shot you. Only to run back and have that same person do it over and over.
That is why I really liked the karma system in L2 it sort of kept that to a minimum while still having that thrill of it being a possibility. The cool thing was if someone went red people gathered together to hunt him down and you would get your revenge. Honestly if that game wasn't the grindiness of the grindys (and full of bots) I think that sort of system would have caught on and there would be more open world PvP games these days.
UO did this with PK'ers. If you where red you couldn't go into towns or have people rez you unless they were red too.
There are systems that would allow for people who do PK to have consequences for their actions.
People not liking the other style is exactly why they should have PvE and PvP servers instead of combining the two of them together.
PvE should focus on co op play and role playing (fun with friends).
PvP should focus on competition between players who like to compete.
I don't really see why they always need to be together (even if it's instanced). As you pointed out it detracts from PvP to have it instanced off. To me it detracts from PvE to have PvP at all. The only PvP I really like is the option to dual someone. I'm not a huge fan of ganking and constantly losing your equipment to other people. Especially if you put a lot of time into acquiring said items. On the flip side PvP seems pointless without looting and open world. This is why it's best to completely segregate the two. Otherwise it becomes a bit of a hallow experience all around.
The problem is people dont like to get gank but to advoid being ganked u need to develope the skill to advoid it (aka always be observing ur surrounding when traveling/PvE/PvPing, keeping an eye out for possible danger and knowing the safe distance to maintain where u can escape if it looks bad for example ur half hp from fighting a mob when somone shows up) these are all skills that develop after being ganked so by not wanting to be ganked in the first place they never develop the skills to play in open world PvP games.
Balancing PvP/PvE is acualy realy easy you just simply need to put 2 damage types on each skill one for PvE and the other for PvP this allows you to balance PvP without effecting classes ability to PvE and vice versa. Ive seen SoE do this in there games so it is possible and probaly quite easy since they been doing it since 1999 (EQ1 wizards could hit mobs for 7k+ dmg but on players it would do substancialy less damage)
The main issue that realy needs to be addressed is the continous ganking of one person (corpse camping) there for example the Karma system, or faction hits so npc would no longer let u into cities and all that or u can even put a timer from when the same people can kill eachother so they can get there body and back to a safe spot before they can be killed by the same person and so on, or a lvl difference restriction where say players over 5 lvls appart cant fight eachother, or a revenge system where the defeated player gets a buff to dmg to the person who killed them so eventualy they can kill him. There many ways this can be addressed. Most people assosiate open world PvP as a gank feast were the same higher lvl character will corpse camp you with no hope of u being able to do anything at all due to overwhelming powergap.
The problem is Devs are taking the easy way that requires less thought instead (spliting PvP and PvE appart) instead of improving the open world PvP experience.
I think some people like this style of play as it is exciting. It's something you can't experience in the real world and is probably not far off what life was like once upon a time. I'm not a big fan as I find PvE more relaxing and more about adventuring with friends, but it seems unfair to say people who want to role play that kind of experience are bad and it shouldn't happen. It's just a game after all. It's better it happens in game then in real life.
It's the Trinity. Tanks have to take very hard Boss hits. Healers have to be able to heal those very hard Boss hits. And typically, there are 2-4 DPSers for every healer so healers performance scale higher and out of proportion to DPS. This ruins PVP balance.
All of these systems that give 'consequences' to the PK'er is fine and all, but that's only from the perspective of the PvPer.
He gets to decide whether or not he wants the result in whatever point loss the system assigns. The PvE player has no choice, he'll get ganked. If the game is PvP focused then he signed up for it.
If a PvE player just wants to play an Mmo where he grows crops, tends sheep and be left alone to think deep thoughts (bad examples I know), he should have the right to play said game without having the headaches of other people ruining his enjoyment of the game.
As other threads have shown, it is simply not possible to have a game with both UNLESS it is consentual, and many PvE only don't care for it.
I have to agree with the FFA PvP system ive played darkfall which is a FFA PvP system basicly it ended up being Guild alliance Vs every other guild alliance and so on, and the races never played a roll at all they did try make a disadvantage to kill that of ur own race but it was so marginalised it did nothing at all xcept make ur name red instead of blue. The best PvP ive seen were the EQ1 PvP team servers, there was good vs evil vs Nuetral and Elves vs Shorts races vs evil races vs human races. one faction vs 1 faction isnt a whole lot of fun but when u throw 3-4 factions in thing can get intresting.
I would love to see player have the ability to choose which races they align with by electing a leader for each races which set the ally lists so there some politics envolved. There an anime series called sword art online which has an intresting concept for MMORPG faction when they get into the 2nd game ALfheim.
Nail on the head, here in this thread. The largest problem is that when people want to PVE (quest) they dont like watching their backs or arent able to. Since MMOs these days are mostly a solo experience, you cant quest solo in a PVP environment. Also, if anyone as ever played on a PVP ruleset server, when there are PVE servers split, the PVP servers are dead.
Honestly the majority of players that play in open world PVP environments are just gankers. They have no interest in the PVE aspect of the MMO, they dont usually care to do quests or dungeons, they just want to pick off players that are doing that. This is usually done in the form of waiting till said PVE player is half dead from killing quest mobs, then coming in to finish the job in one or two hits. Those players are terrible at PVP in fair fights, and this is the only way they know how to get joy out of killing others. This leads to all those who enjoy PVE to roll on a PVE server, and the only people on the PVP server are the same people who were trying to hunt those PVEers. With noone left to hunt, the servers die off, and even the gankers start to reroll on PVE servers just to have someone to play with. Eventually, the PVP servers get consolidated or shut down, and then people come to the forums asking why there are no PVP servers anymore. And thats the history of PVP server rulesets, and why companies now know they are a waste of money.
There will most likely be one single PVP ruleset server in EQN, just like SOE has kept alive the one single PVP server for EQ2 or their other games. Most likely it will be a barren wasteland, and no city will ever be built there (because thats PVE content), but hey, at least they are willing to give players the options lol.
When I went from WoW to Rift, I started on a PVP server. I didn't play on a PVP server in WoW. So Rift was my 1st experience with open PVP. I was leveling in a zone on my Mage when level 50 Rogues were taunting the low levelers. Trolling in Map, laughing at the kils they made. They were on the forums trolling there too. It was one guild that was doing this. They truly were intentionally griefing and Trion had already made the stance that this was allowable since server transfers were free.
The fact of the matter was, these guys sucked at the game. They were in greens. These rogues couldn't even oneshot backstab. I was at a hub when one ganeked me. He popped out of stealth to bacstab me and being half his level, I still survived. It was kind of funny. he expected me to die but I didn't, he had move on to his next targe while I was still standing. He had to stop and come back. LOL. Anyway, as what most of us did, we posted the pathetic damage these 50s did on the forums for a good laugh, but they didn't stop.
Anyway, I did transfer off the server and vowed, I'd never roll in forced PVP like that again.
These games shouldn't open with a choice of PVP or PVE servers. It should be.......
[ ] Yes: I wish to be ganked while levleing.
[ ] No: I do not wish to be ganked while leveling
Seems like the root cause is pretty easy to pinpoint here. Players want to do one thing or the other thing, but not both. At least the majority of players are like this. Content that tries to mix PvE and PvP ends up with the PvE players doing the PvE stuff and getting angry that the PvP players are interfering, and the PvP players are tired of having to engage in PvE content to progress their primary goal of PvP.
I'm not sure what a combined system would look like. Alterac Valley in WoW was a pretty good mix of both activities. Both were required to win and players often ended up doing both at the same time.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
There is no once upon a time where the majority of the population engaged in random murder sprees. FFA PvP games are completely unique environments with a unique set of rules that do not now, nor have they ever existed in human history.I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I disagree.
Pve and PvP are essentially two different type of games. There is no need to put them together and compromise.
Perhaps murder is a bit overboard. Either way it's just a game. People kill things in games all the time. Most people on this board seem to only want to kill things. They have no interest in things like figuring out puzzles, roleplaying, or interacting. I do know when there is no fear of law or fear of god to keep people in place people end up doing a lot of bad things. Games like Ultima Online just prove my point.
It isn't hard, the majority just don't want it. The devs of recent games seem to think that some keep based RvR zone satisfies everyone and they couldn't possibly be more wrong. Every release in the past 5 years would have better if they just added a single PvP server, even if they didn't do ANYTHING at all to balance it. GW2 would be so much better with a PvP server, I might still be playing it.
Anyway, keep your eye out for EQN when it comes out in 2015 or 2016, they are going to have normal PvP and not this silly PvP in a box style that everyone has gone with now.
I agree. I think the majority just want separate pvp games. That is why LoL and WoT are so popular.
They are just games, but retribution doesn't exist to curb PvP. "Retribution" is just a positive reinforcer within the context of most OW PvP games*. Player behavior has much more to do with the accepted social rules for a given environment. In FFA PvP games, "rampant killing" is the accepted rule, so players engage in it much more than they would in PvE servers/games. To many or possibly most PvE players, "zero killing" is the accepted rule. This is one of the disconnects between PvE and PvP players. They both operate under a different set of social rules. There doesn't exist a level of OW PvP that is an acceptable level to mostly PvE players. Any retribution or controls in place don't matter because "zero killing" is the socially accepted level of PvP. On the flip side. deterrents to PvP are not part of the socially accepted rule set for PvP players. Engaging in PvP should cause more PvP to happen, and the server's rule sets should support this**. It would be nonsensical to have a server where OW PvP was "always on" but at the same time "always punished" except for a very select group of people.
A good example of PvEvP players on a PvP server operating using their own set of social rules would be an RP PvP server. It was even brought up in a thread about RP PvP servers. Why don't role players engage in PvP on PvP servers? Because their social rule set determines when they engage in PvP, even though the server's rule set says that PvP is "Always On". This is very much an exception though.
Outside of role players, most players can't choose social rule sets, and even if they could, they would have no guarantee that everyone else will choose the appropriate social rule set, so players choose based on the server rule sets. Specifically whether PvP is "On" or "Off".
This is why PvP and PvE players tend to not get along on forums***. They have different social rules, and there is little or no common ground. Their available options highlight the divide between them so even though they can all easily "live and let live", they don't. The little warning light that there are people who are different from them right over "there" keeps going off and flashed in front of their eyes.
**
* A response has been provoked, a player's red status can be used to brag, etc.
** Players who turn "red" are more likely to be attacked in PvP. Clan or guild retribution causes more PvP to occur, not less. And so on.
*** If they are on the same servers, it's a rare event. The edge cases where the PvE player complains about the PvP server or the PvP player complains about the PvE server are going to be rare because the players do have a choice.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Here is the core difference in my eyes between the two types of players.
The PvE player tends to see random PvP that interrupts their PvE content as something that reduces their fun. The PvE player gets jumped a few times while alone and says this is dumb and logs off.
The PvP player tends to see random PvP that interrupts their PvE content as something that enhances their fun. The PvP player gets jumped a few times while alone and goes and finds someone to group with so they are part of a protected group dynamic. They just made a lasting new social connection with the person who jumped them and the people they grouped with.
The best nights of PvE I have ever experienced all included an element of PvP adding additional conflict to the situation.
Those two statements don't play together very well. I don't want a pure PvP game, if I wanted that I would go play one of the many non MMO PvP style games out there like a LoL, FPS etc. I want to experience PvE content in a dynamic world where every player I see could be an ally or enemy and I don't know which it is until I interact with them. I want to have people I actively dislike becuase of their actions in the past as well as those who I have bonded with over the common goal of defeating enemy players.
this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.
worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)
that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.
ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.
I had fun once, it was terrible.