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MMORPG.COM News: Debate: Class vs. Skill Systems
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
The Saturday debates continue here today as Garrett Fuller and Frank Mignone debate the merits of a class system (Garrett) vs. a skill system (Frank). Read on, then join the debate on our boards.
| Garrett Fuller: The most important element of MMORPGs is character development. After all this is how players interact, represent, and really enjoy the game. Giving characters a class or job system to start with allows players to choose which class works best for them. Whether a rogue, mage, healer, or tank, most players enjoy playing one of these roles. These are the classic arch types for any fantasy RPG. For science fiction games things can expand even more. You can have bounty hunters, mechs, techs, mentalists, martial artists, etc. These class groups give players the option to select something from the beginning that appeals to their play style. |
You can read their debate here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
You can cast your vote below. After doing so, please join the debate by telling us why you voted the way you did.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
I prefer a skill based system over a class based. I don't think people will gravitate to the same skills, but I do think people will end up playing the role of a "class" type anyways. I for one plan to be a Wizard in The Chronicle which will be skill based. However, I do plan to dabble in some melee for up close and personal protection. There will be those that specialize in skills that would make them close to a rogue, healer, and warrior also. At least with a skill system you can mix and match those skills that best suit your play style.
I like class based systems too if the game offers many classes to choose from with specialties in each class that would set the apart from the next. However, it would need to be balanced, which I doubt they could do. Look at DAOC for example. Everything is so cookie cutter there now and people only play the classes and specs that will "pwn" most or get you into a group to "pwn" most.
In classes you have the cookie cutters and in skill based you have the freedom to choose your own unique class. I say go with skill based systems.
I prefer a class system. The class system with a skill base or a hybrid of the 2 is a great idea. I like the idea of having a starting job or class that directs me to my role in the community. I prefer having the choice to choose my skills withing that job class to ones that I would find useful or exciting to help support whatever group or guild I happen to be in.
The idea of a total skill based system leaves a big question of what my role is. Depending on how I choose my skills I guess defines my role but that is not entirely evident to others who might be looking for a particular skill set for their group. Skills have their place but I think they should be within the confines of a class.
Having a combination or a hybrid system is the best of both worlds. Allowing my Warrior to choose a bow as one of their skills instead of axe and shield or something to diferentiate my warror from all the other warriors in the community is an ideal situation, it is much better than being warrior #3760 with the same skills as every other warrior in the community.
I enjoy these debates. Keep em comming.
My vote is obviously for a skill based system. People should be able to learn whatever they want to learn. Devs try to justify class based systems by saying people like to have defined roles. Even with a skill system, people will gravitate toward skills they want to use.
I thought Garrett's comment in the opening argument was hilarious:
Problem is, whatever the best skill set becomes, everyone gravitates towards it. Pretty soon you have the entire game playing one skill set.
Well if a DEV Team knew how to balance a skill based system this wouldn't be an issue would it.
We don't need our hands held. We don't need predetermined classes set aside for us. Let me pick what I want to use...you're only job as a Dev is making sure all skills you impliment have a purpose.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
I have always been very passionate about this type of debate since I loved Ultima Online and have hated just about every other mmo out there because of there toddler targeted class systems. Class systems are so easy to play 3 year olds can do it. btw I have played basically ever MMO to come out and some that are not out yet I still haven't found a perfect replacement for Ultima Online.
At least with a skill based system you have a choice, whenever I made a character in a skill based system basically just UO I would think hrm I want this guy to be a thief but I want to be able to cast invis spells and gate how can I allocate the skills to do that and still be a justifiable character. Well I did it just like I did an axe wielding/fencer with hiding and healing skills that brought me to number 1 of the minax faction in less than a week just because I didn't play my character like anyone else I fought a lot of those "cookies cutter" characacter templates and they died easily under my blades, just because people think theres an uber template thats not necessarily true and if the devs do there job right theres enough skills in the game to make hybrid chars like I did and still have a hell of a lot of fun and be able to match up with the cookie cutters.
Also most people don't go around searching forums for what is the strongest character people like to experiment and make something cool themselves look at magic for instance. Theres millions of cards and theres uber decks however everyone likes to try and make there own deck with there own chosen cards very few copy the uber decks. And lots of times the uber decks are the ones that lose in tourneys.
Also in my books a mmo should go on forever not have a ending based on your level to me lvl 80 means an end to the game and for most mmo's thats true once your lvl max it gets boring as shit. Not that I have ever stuck with a class based game that long think the highest I have been would be 45 in DAOC. Anyhow enough ranting from me for a while until the gamers demand skill based games the devs will keep throwing out cookie cutter games with mages, thiefs, warriors, etc in class based systems that are level based and any 3 year old could figure out.
OH one other thing Balance is a fallacy and usualy what ruins many great games. In a skill based system you need no balance its self balancing, add more skills or better wepons the skills never need to be changed for balance, wondrous variety will kill any balance conflicts any day of the week. Thats one reason why UO has gone down the shitter they tried to balance the game instead of adding more skills/items. Course when EA takes over they tend to screw games up pretty quick.
This argument reminds me of the debate in the 80s. which was the better? AD&D or Runequest? Any true connaisseur would tell you Runequest hands down. Why? Because skills made your class not vice versa. If you wanted to be a Ogre Shaman wielding a bow and wearing chain mail you just went ahead and did it and your skills developed each time your were successful.
Project Entropia and EVE use the skill system and it makes for a better game style. DARKFALL is one for the future!
However if you prefer having classes there are plenty of games using the AD&D structure. Certainly for younger gamers and first timers the class system provides a good grounding in appreciating online gaming. In fact a game like GW does the class system well as you can try many 2ndry classes and this hybrid allows for better gaming. But it is not Morrowind which was skill based with a unlimited class choices built on top. Maybe this is the way forward to please both schools of thought.
I hope the vast support from this survey for skills based will change the way DEVS think about making games but I doubt it.
"MMORPGs are all about playing with a community. That community gives each player a role to fulfill. By having player jobs or classes it helps people add their role to the group, realm, community and game as a whole. In Dark Age of Camelot the eight man PvP groups that ran around the realms fighting each other was one of the most dynamic parts of the game. Each class had a role and the group functioned as a strong unit together. This made players work hard to help each other win fights. In games that have classes for characters to play the group dynamic grows drastically. If you just allow open skills, then players will be using the same facilities to bring down their foes. With classes you have the tank running up and hacking away, the healer supporting the tank, the rogue or damage-per-second class attacking from the side, the mage handling crowd control. There are so many fun aspects to working as a group. "
This is true in some aspects but there are lots of people who like to solo and do there own thing if you have to have 6 other players with you to be able to do anything it really makes it hard to just log on and have fun for an hour. I have always been pro solo and if a game doesnt allow solo play I dont play it because grouping is for babies who are scared to hunt monsters alone.
Absolutely no doubt about it, I like a skill based system much better. I loved SWG prior to the recent tragedy, but I have hated all of the games I have tried since leaving them. I tried WOW, COH, EQ2. They were all class bases systems, and they were all the same, and at least to me, all boring.
Give me choices and freedom any day. I dont need or want to be spoon-fed and led around like a pet.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
The argument for the class system is ridiculous, there are numerous ways to prevent everyone from choosing the same build that have already worked. A great example is Guild Wars, which really isn't much of a class game. You have people putting different skills and spells together all the time to come up with fighting styles and abilities that you've never seen before. In fact it's worked so well that it's almost become a bad thing, since I often have no idea what to expect from a given enemy class (they could be dps, interrupt, defensive, drainer, counter e.t.c.).
In Guild Wars, there definitely were cookie-cutter, flavour of the month builds. But they kept changing because the more cookie-cutter invincimonks and echo nuker elementalists there were out there, the more powerful people who could counter them became. PVP became an ongoing evolution that continues today (and will explode soon when they release hundreds of new skills and spells with their upcoming expansion).
Also, in a truly open skill system, there is the minor problem of people taking all the "best" skills and becoming more similar in the end game that way. Trials of Ascention seems to have handily countered and reduced that problem with skill decay. If you train a skill to max and then never use it again, it will get rusty, which will mean that while power-gamers can still become semi-viable warrior-mage-healers, they can't become warrior-druid-banshee-warlock-necro-priest-ranger-rogue-cabalists without half of the corresponding skills decaying over a few months.
Class systems are too restricting, a well thought out skill system should be the focus of all devs moving forward. Unfortunately devs have gone into the "copy and paste/cookie cutter" method of game development. Instead of trying to produce an innovative game it has become a race to see who can out do blizzard. WOW shouldn't be the blueprint for making an MMORPG, it is too limited and should be considered an introduction to the genre.
The most likely scenario would be to use base templates (Melee, Steath, Arcane, Divinity) which give you a certain percentage in a handful of skills and then let you as you advance distribute points into any skill out there. Perhaps make it harder to learn Melee if you chose Arcane (and vice versa) but never have it barred. Skill systems are alot more realistic as in RL we all have skills that exist outside the limited scope of our jobs/careers.
At this point just finding a game with a hybrid system would be nice, a full blown well done skill system won't happen until some dev gets off his keister and starts to think for himself.
I have to say that I am in favor of a Hybrid over either one. I think of Guild Wars as being close to a hybrid. I want to see a game that is very close to each character of a said class being the same at the beginning of the characters. As soon as a character is started though, then decisions start to be offered. I like the idea of at least 10 class/profession choices with each one have at least 40 skills if not more even if some is close to being the same as another class/profession. With that number would come the choices of what they wanted to concentrate on in the class/profession. Another thing would be that every class/profession can get skills of anothers but limited to number of them that can be kept maxxed out. I would love to see that. One would be able to have a choice of what to start as but when started playing would already have choices that would make the character what the player wanted. I could see the clerics starting out and choosing Enhancement, Healing, Dark Arts, or another possible field inside the class they wanted to explore. Not saying not allow the gaining of the others but let the player have a choice and explore and at some point pick a specialty field with a bonus or just be generic and use them all of equal ability. That is what I would like to see.
The game that I enjoyed of the ones I played most is FFXI because I could always change up my character if I was willing to spend the time. I just hate the limitations in the game. There are others out there I like but I prefer to have more choices than I can comprehend and the ability to play with it. I will never think either Class of Skill system is best because I believe proper combination of them is what would be best. I would love to be a Wizard that wielded a sword with the best of the Swordsmen or a Pikeman that was able to perform great acrobatics feats to match most Rogues thrown in with some illusions to make it more mesmerizing.
I prefer skill over class any day. I've witnessed just how well it works in Eve-Online, and I got hints of it in Horizons, albeit with some class limitations. Shame the latter was let down by the developers, but the basic system was great. My Paladin was also a Storm Disciple, with a few bits of druid thrown in for good measure. Together it created quite a neat mix, but was structured more out of whim than any fixed intention.
Eve certainly doesn't result in a focus on one style or another because the devs seem to have taken the time to carefully tweak the system. It used to be that Ravens were amongst the most useful ships in game because their large missiles could hit everything from frigates to battleships with the same ease. When the devs nerfed that you started seeing (as we still do 6~9 months down the line) a wide variety of different races and different ships set up in different ways being used in fleet combat. Sure each race has a preferable setup for each ship type, but some of the best PvPers delight in doing things different from the standard approach, say using an Eagle as a close up blaster based ship rather than its typical role as a sniper. My primary character is Gallente, can fly Gallente battleships, cruisers, hacs and industrial ships. He can also fly Caldari battleships, fire missiles and shoot lasers, each skill trained for a specific purpose, the lasers being purely for POS takedown (no hassles with ammo that way).
Unfortunately too many MMORPGs are class based, with very little pressure being put on developers to try something new to break the mold. I'd love to see the skill based system coming into place more frequently.
All class based systems are inherently level based systems. Level based systems are all about grinding. Grinding isn't fun. Therefore skill based systems are better.
Wow, class based systems just got SLAUGHTERED! And I'm here to help gut the fish =D Honestly, a hybrid or a skill based system in my opinion would be best. I think that's what I loved about SWG until SOE totally screwed it up...and I mean before they reduced the hybrid system to a measly 9 jobs (ick!) Either way, most of what I believe in a skill/hybrid based systems have been covered already, but I'll put in my two cents worth.
What attracts me most to skill/hybrid based systems is the individuality and the total customizability. I also am very attracted to NON COMBAT AQUIRABLE SKILLS. Example: SWG's Ranger. Being able to gather organic resources and make camps, etc. This gave me a unique experience. Sure there were others like me, but not many that's true. I will admit the TKM's got a little old (and the whole knockdown abilities seemed rather...stupid) but I delt with it and it was overall a good game till SOE messed it up. Point is, I'm a huge fan of non combat skills. Sure I'll have my combat skills so I can fight, maybe PvP, all that good stuff, but I like non combat skills cause they allow me to feel like I can be hired for a job.
Anyway, I'll post more later, gotta go!
That makes about as much sense as it ought to make sense which is that it makes sense for it to not make any sense at all.
How many of us have played Secret Of Mana (TM)? It had levels, it had a skill system, it had a point. I have yet to see a MMORPG that utilizes a system that is so enjoyable and challenging. I mean, how great would that be? You level up, choose your skills, decide which skills to actually make better by using them. Often when you release debates like this I can often see myself either completely on one side or the other, this one however, is far beyond choosing a side. If I could only choose one it would definately be class, only because as much fun as I had with UO, I would far prefer a leveling system. I have yet to find that perfect game. UO started my addiction and only because that was all I knew held my attention for many years. Once I started playing all these other releases I started seeing what else there is and couldn't help but think, "If only this was more like UO." Being as that was I went back to UO. What I found was that UO was equally as tedious. No levels, if you decide to change a skill you would wind up being nearly as ineffective as you were at day one. Also, an issue with the pure skill based system is that there is not a whole lot to do. Once you max your skills out you still can't stand triumphanty over a dragon with your sword swashed over your shoulder. Generally what happens is people find the skills that work and everyone is the same. Now if we threw a level system into UO combined with the skill set, that would be a game well worth playing. Content is so limited by a skill system alone.
Now the same can be said about the class leveling system. Often you hear people say, "Sorry I havn't been on in a long time, there just isn't much for me to do anymore." People are in such a rush to hit end game they forget to enjoy themselves. By throwing a skill system like UO in lets say, WoW, can you imagine how many more hours of not grinding you could do? Sure, there is something of a skill system, but its not open, its completely closed, aside from trade skills. You only see whats available to your class and arn't even forced to choose only one of those skills.
Maybe because I have played all those MMORPG's out there I feel the need to find that perfect mix, but as I first stated, its not a question of which of these systems to go with, but a question of how to combine them to a point of exodus. I would buy a game for gameplay far before graphics, and I think this is what developers are forgetting. They spend all this money on graphics engines and updates but they don't spend enough on how your character progression works. I would love to see a system like this. Now you all may be thinking, "This is a debate about class and skill, what the heck is this guy talking about?!" Well think about it, they are the same, class vs skill and lvl vs skill, have you ever seen a game that combines them both so that its impossible to decide which it is?
class based... ( I can see why people consider GuildWars hybrid...but there's no choice for that on poll and I consider it class based, because basically that's what it is )...
Problems with skill based -
- Too hard to manage balance and create new abilities ( result would be less amount of skills/spells than a class based system like Guild Wars could have created )
- Players may play for a long time and then end up realizing that they've gimped themselves
- Exhausting amount of time learning about all the skills just to get the perfect one
- Finding compatible players for groups may be harder ( I don't know about others...but lets say I had healing and damaging skills, and at the time I feel like just killing, I would hate it if the group were to say "u have to heal because you're the only healer" )
- A totally skill based game would just create a majority of players, who are around a the same "vicinity" (In otherwords, unlikely anyone would go pure offensive, when they can get both offensive and defense to survive better... Remember, Western culture = individualism, so we most likely build more for the survivability of ourselves more often than for team)... With classes, players would tend to build what's best for them within their containment...
Skill based system gives the most freedom to character development and character abilities. And allows for the most freedom in both min/max builds and role play builds.
The real problem is most systems don't spend enough time making sure there is a balance in the skills where all are useful and desired. Then you get your "this template is best" thing happening.
A class based system is used to dumb down the character choices and keeps people that don't want to invest time in studing the game system from gimping themselves by making poor choices. It is also used by developers to cut corners in a system design so they can balance easier with less work for them. Ala the lazy man system.
And while PnP games may have started this way that doesn't make it the best just the easiest. Ford made one type of car and made it one color as well but today we have choices. Unless of course you want it to go back to the way Ford started it.
Developers could easily build a skills system based game and still offer a class choice for those that wanted it and include them in one game. Both can exist in the same system.
Skill systems are far superior in my opinion. Maybe its a generation thing but I prefer choice in games.
Making a generational comparison to other games like rpgs for example....
KOTOR - My son and half of young america loved the game. They thought it was brilliant. I thought it was too limiting. I pointed out to my son some of the things that immediately bothered me.
1. Im forced to start out on a certain planet. I like being able to do things out of order if I prefer. In classic rpg games like the Fallout series (1-2) it was fun to skip the opening areas if I so chose to do.
2. I couldnt explore or go anywhere i liked on planets. I noticed on Tatooine that it was easy to find stuff because there were invisible barriers in the desert that prevented me from going anywhere. I dont want my hand held and forcibly led to where the developer wants me to go. I want to go wherever the hell I dam please.
Battle for Middle Earth - My son bought this for me for my birthday. I hate it 10 seconds into the game....why, lack of freedom again. As soon as I saw I HAD to build my base in a predetermined spot I deleted the game from my hard drive.
I guess I resent these type of games because I know its a developers way of cheating my out of my money. Its far simpler and cheaper to go code simplisitic level based games with predesigned rules based on things like damage multipliers.
SWG was the perfect system for me before the CU / NGE came along and ruined it. There was plenty of room for customization. And sure there were certain templates that were more effective than others BUT SO WHAT !!! Not everyone flocked to them anyway. I knew a melee defense stacker was superior to me but I still didnt choose it. I went CH / medic / pistols / and a bit of ranger because this was fun for me. And when I got bored, I dropped ranger and went MCH.
Also I wasnt stuck in a certain class my whole game life. In games like WoW, I pick warlock. If later on I find myself not enjoying warlock well too bad. Delete the toon or roll another but meanwhile I've lost all my work.
And then there's the attachment issue and reputation issue. Again in games like WoW I see a lot of bad behavior in game. Why, well because if players gain a bad rep who cares. It doesnt effect their gameplay. However in games like SWG, my rep was everything. I couldnt do business or find a group if I acted like an ass to people. I therefore took pride in my name and reputation in that world. If its so easy to just roll another toon then why bother to act decent to players.
The mobs in skill based games are much more challenging. There's more strategy involved. In a level based system with a damage multiplier in place, the outcome is predetermined. I will always win over that -10 lvl below me mob and always lose to that +10 lvl mob above me....BORING
Mobs had unique resists to certain damage types in SWG. Mobs had unique behaviors, some were aggressive, others could poison or disease you, etc. Again, a sophisticated system that requires more money and development time to implement.
In short, I see the difference as simply a matter of economics. Skill based systems represent a superior and more expensive system. They are the Mercedes Benz of mmorpg. A level class system is the generic Ford bland system bleh.
Unfortunately, mmorpgs like the rest of the corporate world are being eaten up and simplified like other industries. Sequels, generic gameplay, no innovation will be the rule now rather than the exception. Take a look at future mmorpgs in development....every single one is a simplistic level based game.
Skill system, as said before, it is the DEVS job to balance skills.
As many here have, Ive played pretty much every MMO out there. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the items below are key and need to be balanced to a T
-Speed
-Ranged Magic Nuke/Bow Nuke
-Ranged Stun/Mez whatever
-Ranged Root/snare/slow down
-hiding/sneak/invis
-transportation/gate/recall/ etc
For Example
I mean why cant you allow a mage to wear a steel great helm, and the second he tries magic his explodes? Its a lot better than "you cannot wear this" You still give the player the choice: wear light armor or have great D but no nukes (or at least be a suiced bomber)
Needless to say I am for skill based games. While it is difficult to please a wide variety of people with skill based system I believe it is a better way of playing an RPG.
An open skill system is better than a strict class system 99% of the time. Although a compromise, something like WoW, where you have a skill tree within a class, isnt too terrible of an idea, I would still always prefer the openness of a full skill system.
Something like the pre-CU/NGE starwars galaxies, where you could do several professions (that often compliment eachother) making way for a wide variety of character builds. Of course, an open skill system might make it much harder to balance a game, which might be exactly what attributed to the poor balancing of SWG (but I think most would agree that SoE never really tried to balance SWG anyways). If some time is taken to balance the system, a skill system would always triumph over that of a class system.
The possible exception might be a Guildwars style game, where it is so important to have specific 'group builds', and the world is so gigantic to the point where you can't recognize a players class merely by his name or simply from the weapon he is holding that you need to be able to associate players into classes in arranged and very strict PvP encounters like you see in Guildwars... But Guildwars has always had more of a FPS style feel for PvP than traditional MMORPGs, and in FPS style games it is very important to have different classes (sniper, medic, machine gunner, whatever).
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.