Originally posted by Hermod Or it could be a thank-you for paying the wages for the people that spend a lot of time making the game.
that's not the point.
The point is that most B2P models are really only supposed to have cosmetic or vanity items for sale to not be considered as offering unfair advantage over others.
EQ2. LoTRO, Rift and SWTOR all have similar benefits for a sub. What are the "most" options you're looking at?
They won't even let me play unless I give them $15 a month! So I automatically lose if I don't pay and those who pay insta-win over me . It's not fair!!!
Originally posted by dotdotdash If we alter the definition of the word "winning" to mean any advantage that allows a player to surpass those not paying the sub fee, then yes... ZOS have implemented a "P2W" subscription model where players that subscribe have a distinct and clear advantage over those that do not.
well if im paying $15/month to play then i should receive benefits that freeloaders do not.
Originally posted by junzo316 Some people consider xp potions in cash shops pay-to-win. I, however, disagree. To me, P2W gives you more of an advantage over other players. Now, my problem is....If they nerfed the xp gain for non paying subs by 10% and the "xp bonus" is just "normal" xp...but, until we see the cash shop and what items are placed there, then, I don't think this is P2W.
i have no issue with nerfing xp for freeloaders. i paid $15/month for 100% xp. why should freeloaders get the same thing for free? nerf their xp. if they want 100%, then sub. i will.
Not sure how Zenimax managed to produce 3 expansions for Skyrim with no subscribers; just a bunch of freeloaders. Lots of other games have had lots of expansions as well with no subscribers.
I don't buy a car and think sheesh I should be paying extra every month to keep those designers working. Ditto toasters, wallpaper, chairs, cakes - pretty much everything we buy in fact. Yet somehow manufacturers keep on coming up with new products. And if the product is good they thrive.
As for this thread I think it could worry Zenimax:
The idea that TESO will still require a subscription when it launches on console - doubt Zenimax will like that.
The idea that TESO will have a P2W cash shop when it launches on consoles -doubt Zenimax will like that either.
And I am talking "perception" here not reality.
We have no idea how well TESO has done on PC. All the work done so far has been in support of the console launch. Simply an extension of the initial c. 7 years of development. And comments like I see lots of people mean nothing as a result of the megaservers. After the console launch we will see. Will there be DLC? There doesn't have to be - Blizzard demonstrated that when they went for 14 months with no content and then produced an expansion that everybody had to pay for. Surely, we say, Zenimax would never do that .... reminds me of the cash shop threads last March.
If the message gets out that TESO on console will need a sub and has a P2W cash shop - and I am talking perception remember - then I think those dreams will remain dreams.
What the game needs - in the opinion of Zenimax clearly - is what Skyrim achieved: high sales.
However TESO was reviewed for consoles last year - based on the PC launch because the game was due to launch. And the reviews were, as we know, not overwhelmingly positive. Not bad but not gushing with praise. So I think there is doubt about how well the game will do; hence the optional sub and the cash shop.
Originally posted by Domoto This is not P2W, it's pay for convenience. Leveling faster because you are subbed is not winning because you payed money. You are not getting anything someone else cannot just because you paid money. Also, saying *BURIED IN THE FAQ* is misleading, and comes off as stirring shit up. The day they announced it, of the 4 or so places I saw the announcement, the terms of continuing a sub was there, including at XP bonus. I don't play this game, and most likely won't but is this really necessary?
I don't consider it just convenience.
After the champion system rolls out, experience past level 50 is supposed to mean something. More champion points into your char makes you stronger.
If you have a guy who can do it faster, then yes, I DO see that as a clear advantage. It is not just a "convenience".
Pay to win means you are more powerful getting things you can`t get otherwise via real money.
Getting things 10% faster is just... getting things SLIGHTLY faster, not even worth mentioning as pay to win.
Many games have bonuses that are a lot more than 10%, but even if they were 200% it would not be pay to win. You can get the same things just slower....
When they release the Buy to Play some people will have a lot of champion points while others will be new player with non. OMG its clearly pay to win as some will have a clear advantage over others. :-)
This kind of crap is just stupid, they need to make some money, they chose to give paying players more cosmetic options and the chance to gain xp/etc. 10% faster... more than fair.
Pay to win originated in games where you could pay 10.000$ and be invincible with super powerful gear. Clearly not the case here, stop picking on every advantage a paying customer has especially when its in gold gained or xp and so on gained, things that you can get as a free player, just a bit slower.
Besides, as a free player.... you are not helping them release more content or anything, getting stuff 10% slower is might generous of them. Be happy about it.
I would consider it pay to win in a recently launched game. Players leveling faster than you with typical progression system are provided a definitive advantage in areas of competition. An advantage with "compounding interest", as leveling faster usually also lends itself directly to more powerful gear and abilities to the point where "player skill" is irrelevant.
However, when a significant portion of the populace is already pushing the limits of end game then leveling progression is hardly relevant. This is the case with ESO so I would not consider it pay to win.
Don't know about you but this looks way worse than offering an exclusive horse with an imperial edition.
Smell like P2W to you?
If that's pay to win to you, then never play an MMO because anyone that started playing before you has an advantage.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
EQ2. LoTRO, Rift and SWTOR all have similar benefits for a sub. What are the "most" options you're looking at?
The game is already even MORE pay to win!
They won't even let me play unless I give them $15 a month! So I automatically lose if I don't pay and those who pay insta-win over me
. It's not fair!!!
Subscription / VIP systems are generally not considered P2W because they cap the monthly payments to 10-15$.
P2W is associated with games that allow you to spend more and more money to gain more and more power without any caps or limitations.
/thread
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well if im paying $15/month to play then i should receive benefits that freeloaders do not.
i have no issue with nerfing xp for freeloaders. i paid $15/month for 100% xp. why should freeloaders get the same thing for free? nerf their xp. if they want 100%, then sub. i will.
Not sure how Zenimax managed to produce 3 expansions for Skyrim with no subscribers; just a bunch of freeloaders. Lots of other games have had lots of expansions as well with no subscribers.
I don't buy a car and think sheesh I should be paying extra every month to keep those designers working. Ditto toasters, wallpaper, chairs, cakes - pretty much everything we buy in fact. Yet somehow manufacturers keep on coming up with new products. And if the product is good they thrive.
As for this thread I think it could worry Zenimax:
And I am talking "perception" here not reality.
We have no idea how well TESO has done on PC. All the work done so far has been in support of the console launch. Simply an extension of the initial c. 7 years of development. And comments like I see lots of people mean nothing as a result of the megaservers. After the console launch we will see. Will there be DLC? There doesn't have to be - Blizzard demonstrated that when they went for 14 months with no content and then produced an expansion that everybody had to pay for. Surely, we say, Zenimax would never do that .... reminds me of the cash shop threads last March.
If the message gets out that TESO on console will need a sub and has a P2W cash shop - and I am talking perception remember - then I think those dreams will remain dreams.
What the game needs - in the opinion of Zenimax clearly - is what Skyrim achieved: high sales.
However TESO was reviewed for consoles last year - based on the PC launch because the game was due to launch. And the reviews were, as we know, not overwhelmingly positive. Not bad but not gushing with praise. So I think there is doubt about how well the game will do; hence the optional sub and the cash shop.
Pay to win means you are more powerful getting things you can`t get otherwise via real money.
Getting things 10% faster is just... getting things SLIGHTLY faster, not even worth mentioning as pay to win.
Many games have bonuses that are a lot more than 10%, but even if they were 200% it would not be pay to win. You can get the same things just slower....
When they release the Buy to Play some people will have a lot of champion points while others will be new player with non. OMG its clearly pay to win as some will have a clear advantage over others. :-)
This kind of crap is just stupid, they need to make some money, they chose to give paying players more cosmetic options and the chance to gain xp/etc. 10% faster... more than fair.
Pay to win originated in games where you could pay 10.000$ and be invincible with super powerful gear. Clearly not the case here, stop picking on every advantage a paying customer has especially when its in gold gained or xp and so on gained, things that you can get as a free player, just a bit slower.
Besides, as a free player.... you are not helping them release more content or anything, getting stuff 10% slower is might generous of them. Be happy about it.
I would consider it pay to win in a recently launched game. Players leveling faster than you with typical progression system are provided a definitive advantage in areas of competition. An advantage with "compounding interest", as leveling faster usually also lends itself directly to more powerful gear and abilities to the point where "player skill" is irrelevant.
However, when a significant portion of the populace is already pushing the limits of end game then leveling progression is hardly relevant. This is the case with ESO so I would not consider it pay to win.
If that's pay to win to you, then never play an MMO because anyone that started playing before you has an advantage.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre