This is what people really believe they're getting when they invest in Star Citizen

BeansnBread · February 2016

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:
I would just say that it is different when the consumers are backing you than when a publisher is backing you. The expectations about reality are far different.

Not only that, but their version of reality is falling on the side of ridiculous whether or not they had a multi-million dollar publisher. Many publishers would have either dropped them or replaced the people that promised extreme things and failed to deliver. There are hundreds of examples in gaming where this has happened.

Why do you keep speaking on expectations as if your opinion of them is the right one? That's taking a rather healthy dose of personal feeling and blanketing everyone with it is it not?

My opinion is that consumers should get their money back when they have been lied to. You can tell me my opinion is wrong, but there are legal ways to receive your money back.

But I do agree that standing ONLY on opinion is somewhat destructive. It's the reason I hold a completely different opinion than you. I'd rather deal with the facts and the legality than blanket a bunch of people. In your case, you are saying that the people are not purchasing and rather they are donating to some vague cause.

No I'm not saying people are doing one or the other, I'm saying there's more than one possibility... as well as.. the definition in law may not be how an individual views it. I speak in possibilities, you seem to be speaking in absolutes. That was my initial issue with your post.

I won't pretend to know what anyone's expectation or motivation is for fact, both burnt and yourself seemed to speak in an absolute that no one is donating to this game... in the eyes of the law you may be correct. Yet a donation is as much a personal motivation as it is a term in law. One does not dictate the other.

If you won't pretend, you might as well stop pretending. Laws already exist to handle this.

But I would like to be more specific about your post. I think that you are correct. I think there is likely a tiny percentage of people that donate money to a "cause." SC is that cause for some.

I also know that it is legal for them to get their funds back if they feel like the "cause" is not delivering as expected.

Distopia · February 2016

BeansnBread said:

But I would like to be more specific about your post. I think that you are correct. I think there is likely a tiny percentage of people that donate money to a "cause." SC is that cause for some.

I

That's all I've been trying to say in all of these debates on the topic. As for it being a tiny or large percentage that's anyone's guess.

Adjuvant1 · February 2016

GrumpyHobbit said:

But my point was, many of the posts here being negative (usually by the same 3 guys) seem to have completely unreasonable expectations about how a game progresses from the initial design, through the iterative design process through to finalizing and producing a final product.

Your appeal to my ignorance is a false portrayal. You never, ever, have contested relevant facts I've cited here, you only say I'm negative and am expecting too much. Your arguments are cliche', weak and without merit.

"You just don't know game development", doesn't fly anymore. If that's the best you've got, it's .. just don't do it. Ask me questions. I'll answer them, probably, unless they're personal, like about my infatuation with Lucy Liu. That's off limits.

Talonsin · February 2016

I got bored and classified just the posts relating to SC and showing an opinion for or against. I only went through the first page that was showing.

The Categories:

Class – He classifies himself as neutral or a critic

Against – He says something negative about the game

For – He says something positive about the game

Insult – He makes fun of someone else’s opinion

Insult/Class

the passionate distaste for SC by some people is off the charts bizzare to be frank.
not sure what the root source of it all is but as someone who is really rather neutral and somewhat skeptical of the project itself said behavior looks very much Lord of the Flies(ish)

Insult

That might not have been your case though. I am sure (sarcasm now) that the mods for SC are just as evil as SC and they all worship satan and eat babies for breakfast so I dont want to break that meme just to be clear I am in line as I should be

Insult/Against

completely missed a golden opportunity to criticize SC in a way that is far more tight, correct and not filled with so many holes you could fly the entire air force thru.

try this.

If he didnt spend so much time promoting his game all the time and more time just working on the game he wouldnt have so much static to filter.

Insult/Class

so although I am not a supporter of SC I think that comment was a bit dickish and not even needed to make the same point

Insult

oh good point we all have it wrong, there is clearly a large community of arm chair developers providing feedback. well that makes us all look like a 'giddy goose'

Against

I am not trying to suggest that what it seems to me to be factual but it has made me pause to wait and see what the 'talkin' actually produces. because sometimes it feels like they are spending the crowd money on presentations.

So in 6 posts on the first page the totals look like this:
Class - 2 (33%)
Against - 2 (33%)
For - 0
Insult - 5 (83%)

I think the results speak for themselves.

Distopia · February 2016

Hey I never said he was a nice guy :P

Talonsin · February 2016

Slapshot1188 said:

I don;t know about anyone else... but I have never "invested" in a game. I did pre-order a SC package though. Hopefully they deliver on the Squadron 42 game which is a game I have wanted for many, many years.

But your "pre-order" is not protected by the same laws as pre-ordering from say a BestBuy... I think the fact that kickstarter projects can fail and leave the people who paid money with nothing, investing might be a better word. Unless you pre-ordered from their website after the kickstarter, then I feel it is a pre-order and should be protected under those same laws as pre-ordering from BestBuy.

I invested (kickstarter)

MrSnuffles · February 2016

GrumpyHobbit said:

Adjuvant1 said:

The thread's actually about "what has been promised through the years" and "what the game looked like and its aspects when people bought into it" versus "what it looks like now" and "what people actually believe it will be". Thus the questions such as "where is the game in those videos" and the link to "false advertising".

Just a quick question but how many original GDD's have you read and compared to the final released design of the game?

As an example look at the original GDD for Bioshock and tell me, if it had been funded via Kickstarter and people were free to comment on every little change, every little deviation, every little promise unfulfilled, would Bioshock have survived?

1. Bioshock did not announce the game and all the crazy features that never made it into the game to the public to sell pre-orders 5 or more years before the game was released.

2. Bioshock did not tell the people that pre-ordered the game it will be released in year X for 4 continuous years moving the release back year after year.

3. Bioshock did not announce Bioshock FPS arena shooter release for a full year to get more pre-orders then said: "You annoy us, we are not releasing, it will be in the game at some point."

I could go on but i fear it is wasted time. You comparison is ridiculous to say the least.

Have faith!

BeansnBread · February 2016

Talonsin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

I don;t know about anyone else... but I have never "invested" in a game. I did pre-order a SC package though. Hopefully they deliver on the Squadron 42 game which is a game I have wanted for many, many years.

But your "pre-order" is not protected by the same laws as pre-ordering from say a BestBuy... I think the fact that kickstarter projects can fail and leave the people who paid money with nothing, investing might be a better word. Unless you pre-ordered from their website after the kickstarter, then I feel it is a pre-order and should be protected under those same laws as pre-ordering from BestBuy.

I invested (kickstarter)

You do realize though, even when an investment goes bad, everyone scrambles to get their money back, right? Even worse, this is a straight up purchase. When the goods are not delivered as described, you have very right to pursue compensation.

Why do you think an investment (which I don't believe it is) doesn't have protections under the law? Why do you think the entity you are investing in shouldn't be held accountable?

Distopia · February 2016

BeansnBread said:

Talonsin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

I don;t know about anyone else... but I have never "invested" in a game. I did pre-order a SC package though. Hopefully they deliver on the Squadron 42 game which is a game I have wanted for many, many years.

But your "pre-order" is not protected by the same laws as pre-ordering from say a BestBuy... I think the fact that kickstarter projects can fail and leave the people who paid money with nothing, investing might be a better word. Unless you pre-ordered from their website after the kickstarter, then I feel it is a pre-order and should be protected under those same laws as pre-ordering from BestBuy.

I invested (kickstarter)

You do realize though, even when an investment goes bad, everyone scrambles to get their money back, right? Even worse, this is a straight up purchase. When the goods are not delivered as described, you have very right to pursue compensation.

Why do you think an investment (which I don't believe it is) doesn't have protections under the law? Why do you think the entity you are investing in shouldn't be held accountable?

IF all the money is spent there is none to get back, plenty of investments go bad in such a way. There is plenty of risk and money lost in the investment world. It takes bad management to get there, but it does get there at times.

Another point pertinent to what you said is in most cases of kickstarters ending up in legal action, it seems to be cases of devs running off with money, spending it else where etc.... What happens when good effort is shown on behalf of a provider (tried but failed) ? Would they be held to the same legislation as what is nothing more than a scam is? I think a lot of this is still rather unknown territory, the process of crowdfunding is still rather young in these industries, all it takes is a single ruling to set precedent for everything that follows.

As it stands there's still a lot of what if's in regard to this, the laws you refer to often, weren't written around a concept of a videogame being developed through crowd funding, so as it stands there is no specifics in place to account for differing possibilities. You have anti fraud legislature all it takes is one good legal team to beat that, and then you have a new precedent to follow.

Talonsin · February 2016

BeansnBread said:

You do realize though, even when an investment goes bad, everyone scrambles to get their money back, right? Even worse, this is a straight up purchase. When the goods are not delivered as described, you have very right to pursue compensation.

Why do you think an investment (which I don't believe it is) doesn't have protections under the law? Why do you think the entity you are investing in shouldn't be held accountable?

What about those people who kickstarted GreedMonger? Do they have a right to pursue compensation?

While I agree that kickstarter is NOT a donation, it certainly has little of the protection that a purchase from BestBuy has.

BeansnBread · February 2016

Talonsin said:

BeansnBread said:

You do realize though, even when an investment goes bad, everyone scrambles to get their money back, right? Even worse, this is a straight up purchase. When the goods are not delivered as described, you have very right to pursue compensation.

Why do you think an investment (which I don't believe it is) doesn't have protections under the law? Why do you think the entity you are investing in shouldn't be held accountable?

What about those people who kickstarted GreedMonger? Do they have a right to pursue compensation?

While I agree that kickstarter is NOT a donation, it certainly has little of the protection that a purchase from BestBuy has.

Yes, they have a right. It was too late to get it back once they spent everything. Bankruptcy is real.

BeansnBread · February 2016

It's crazy to me at this point to see two people... one person that is upset about the condition of the project and one person that defends the condition of the project. Both believe that because they think it's an investment, that there are no ways to recoup their costs - legally. It's disturbing to say the least.

Distopia · February 2016

BeansnBread said:

It's crazy to me at this point to see two people... one person that is upset about the condition of the project and one person that defends the condition of the project. Both believe that because they think it's an investment, that there are no ways to recoup their costs - legally. It's disturbing to say the least.

I didn't say there is no way to get your money back in regard to crowdfunding, I said in the case of real investment there are plenty of cases of that. I said there are as of yet a lot of unknowns (how it would play out in actual litigation) in regard to crowdfunding. BTW where did I defend the state of the project?

BeansnBread · February 2016

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

It's crazy to me at this point to see two people... one person that is upset about the condition of the project and one person that defends the condition of the project. Both believe that because they think it's an investment, that there are no ways to recoup their costs - legally. It's disturbing to say the least.

I didn't say there is no way to get your money back in regard to crowdfunding, I said in the case of real investment there are plenty of cases of that. I said there are as of yet a lot of unknowns (how it would play out in actual litigation) in regard to crowdfunding. BTW where did I defend the state of the project?

What? There are unknowns? Did you invent them? Whatever. I don't know where you defended the state of the project.

Distopia · February 2016

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

It's crazy to me at this point to see two people... one person that is upset about the condition of the project and one person that defends the condition of the project. Both believe that because they think it's an investment, that there are no ways to recoup their costs - legally. It's disturbing to say the least.

I didn't say there is no way to get your money back in regard to crowdfunding, I said in the case of real investment there are plenty of cases of that. I said there are as of yet a lot of unknowns (how it would play out in actual litigation) in regard to crowdfunding. BTW where did I defend the state of the project?

What? There are unknowns? Did you invent them? Whatever. I don't know where you defended the state of the project.

Can you show me cases of legit crowdfunded products that failed, that through a court of law owed everyone their money? If not that would be an unknown, as when it comes down to it, until that happens there is no precedent for what would happen. You might have people making chargebacks to their banks and CC companies, but that is not the same thing as the law ruling on such a case.

BeansnBread · February 2016

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

It's crazy to me at this point to see two people... one person that is upset about the condition of the project and one person that defends the condition of the project. Both believe that because they think it's an investment, that there are no ways to recoup their costs - legally. It's disturbing to say the least.

I didn't say there is no way to get your money back in regard to crowdfunding, I said in the case of real investment there are plenty of cases of that. I said there are as of yet a lot of unknowns (how it would play out in actual litigation) in regard to crowdfunding. BTW where did I defend the state of the project?

What? There are unknowns? Did you invent them? Whatever. I don't know where you defended the state of the project.

Can you show me cases of legit crowdfunded products that failed, that through a court of law owed everyone their money? If not that would be an unknown, as when it comes down to it, until that happens there is no precedent for what would happen. You might have people making chargebacks to their banks and CC companies, but that is not the same thing as the law ruling on such a case.

My argument is that because no one on the supreme court (any court according to you) has not ruled on it, then current law applies. Where do you get your opinion from? You invented it to support your point of view.

COURTS DON'T HAVE TO RULE ON IT IF ACCEPTED LAWS ARE ALREADY IN PLACE.

Talonsin · February 2016

BeansnBread said:

Talonsin said:

What about those people who kickstarted GreedMonger? Do they have a right to pursue compensation?

While I agree that kickstarter is NOT a donation, it certainly has little of the protection that a purchase from BestBuy has.

Yes, they have a right. It was too late to get it back once they spent everything. Bankruptcy is real.

Neither Jason Appleton nor James Proctor filed bankruptcy. Jason still lives in a nice house and drives a nice car and is still creating scam businesses. Again I ask, what rights do those who supported greedmonger have?

As long as a company can reasonably prove it spent the money in pursuit of the product and failed, the backers have no right to compensation for failed kickstarters.

Article: http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/14/a-1-5m-kickstarter-project-fails-leaving-most-backers-without-their-3d-printer/

Let me quote two lines from that article:

1. "Investing is a risky business. Not everything pans out. No matter how it’s billed, crowdfunding through sites like Kickstarter, Indiegogo and GoFundMe is an investing scheme and carries unexpected risks for the general consumer."

notice how they use the word investing

2. "Sometimes Kickstarter and Indiegogo projects fail. There’s risk associated with crowdfunding. Pledging money towards a project is not a guarantee that the project will be fulfilled as promised. Kickstarter changed its terms of service last October to give project creators a way out of fulfilling their obligations as long as certain criteria had been meet including posting a report showing how funds were used and stating what is preventing the project from finishing as planned."

The fact is, those people who backed Greedmonger have no rights to compensation. No kickstarter backer has a right to compensation for a failed project. The people who purchase SC from the CIG website have some rights but kickstarter backers legally have no rights

Talonsin · February 2016

Mirathel said:

Haters gonna Hate

Dont hate the player, hate the game...

BeansnBread · February 2016

Talonsin said:

BeansnBread said:

Talonsin said:

What about those people who kickstarted GreedMonger? Do they have a right to pursue compensation?

While I agree that kickstarter is NOT a donation, it certainly has little of the protection that a purchase from BestBuy has.

Yes, they have a right. It was too late to get it back once they spent everything. Bankruptcy is real.

Neither Jason Appleton nor James Proctor filed bankruptcy. Jason still lives in a nice house and drives a nice car and is still creating scam businesses. Again I ask, what rights do those who supported greedmonger have?

As long as a company can reasonably prove it spent the money in pursuit of the product and failed, the backers have no right to compensation for failed kickstarters.

Article: http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/14/a-1-5m-kickstarter-project-fails-leaving-most-backers-without-their-3d-printer/

Let me quote two lines from that article:

1. "Investing is a risky business. Not everything pans out. No matter how it’s billed, crowdfunding through sites like Kickstarter, Indiegogo and GoFundMe is an investing scheme and carries unexpected risks for the general consumer."

notice how they use the word investing

2. "Sometimes Kickstarter and Indiegogo projects fail. There’s risk associated with crowdfunding. Pledging money towards a project is not a guarantee that the project will be fulfilled as promised. Kickstarter changed its terms of service last October to give project creators a way out of fulfilling their obligations as long as certain criteria had been meet including posting a report showing how funds were used and stating what is preventing the project from finishing as planned."

The fact is, those people who backed Greedmonger have no rights to compensation. No kickstarter backer has a right to compensation for a failed project. The people who purchase SC from the CIG website have some rights but kickstarter backers legally have no rights

They actually do have rights to compensation, they just never pursued it. Most people give up in cases like that. Blowing $60 usually isn't worth a case.

Mirathel · February 2016

Talonsin said:

Mirathel said:

Haters gonna Hate

Dont hate the player, hate the game...

Unless you have an opinion, then love the game, if you want to...

Talonsin · February 2016

Mirathel said:

Talonsin said:

Mirathel said:

Haters gonna Hate

Dont hate the player, hate the game...

Unless you have an opinion, then love the game, if you want to...

Can I just love you instead...

Kefo · February 2016

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

It's crazy to me at this point to see two people... one person that is upset about the condition of the project and one person that defends the condition of the project. Both believe that because they think it's an investment, that there are no ways to recoup their costs - legally. It's disturbing to say the least.

I didn't say there is no way to get your money back in regard to crowdfunding, I said in the case of real investment there are plenty of cases of that. I said there are as of yet a lot of unknowns (how it would play out in actual litigation) in regard to crowdfunding. BTW where did I defend the state of the project?

What? There are unknowns? Did you invent them? Whatever. I don't know where you defended the state of the project.

Can you show me cases of legit crowdfunded products that failed, that through a court of law owed everyone their money? If not that would be an unknown, as when it comes down to it, until that happens there is no precedent for what would happen. You might have people making chargebacks to their banks and CC companies, but that is not the same thing as the law ruling on such a case.

Took the money and ran so not really legit in the sense that the person was doing a scam lol

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday-edition-1.3230561/kickstarter-campaign-fined-ordered-to-pay-back-donors-1.3230569

Used backer money for personal expenses but lied about it and eventually made a post saying the game can't be made. FTC ordered him to pay back the 100k+ to backers (although he is too poor to do it right now so they aren't making him) and the IRS is going to be so far up his ass for the next 10 years of his life he will regret hearing the word Kickstarter

https://www.rt.com/usa/266668-ftc-fines-kickstarter-breaking/?

Distopia · February 2016

Kefo said:

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

It's crazy to me at this point to see two people... one person that is upset about the condition of the project and one person that defends the condition of the project. Both believe that because they think it's an investment, that there are no ways to recoup their costs - legally. It's disturbing to say the least.

I didn't say there is no way to get your money back in regard to crowdfunding, I said in the case of real investment there are plenty of cases of that. I said there are as of yet a lot of unknowns (how it would play out in actual litigation) in regard to crowdfunding. BTW where did I defend the state of the project?

What? There are unknowns? Did you invent them? Whatever. I don't know where you defended the state of the project.

Can you show me cases of legit crowdfunded products that failed, that through a court of law owed everyone their money? If not that would be an unknown, as when it comes down to it, until that happens there is no precedent for what would happen. You might have people making chargebacks to their banks and CC companies, but that is not the same thing as the law ruling on such a case.

Took the money and ran so not really legit in the sense that the person was doing a scam lol

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday-edition-1.3230561/kickstarter-campaign-fined-ordered-to-pay-back-donors-1.3230569

Used backer money for personal expenses but lied about it and eventually made a post saying the game can't be made. FTC ordered him to pay back the 100k+ to backers (although he is too poor to do it right now so they aren't making him) and the IRS is going to be so far up his ass for the next 10 years of his life he will regret hearing the word Kickstarter

https://www.rt.com/usa/266668-ftc-fines-kickstarter-breaking/?

Yeah that was essentially my point, when there is wrong doing there are actions to be taken, they were ordered to pay back something (even though they couldn't) because they essentially committed fraud. There are laws to protect against that. Just because a project fails doesn't mean it was fraud though. It would be interesting to see what would come of such a case. Which in no way am I saying SC is that case, I can't say with confidence there's nothing shady going on behind the scenes.

Distopia · February 2016

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

It's crazy to me at this point to see two people... one person that is upset about the condition of the project and one person that defends the condition of the project. Both believe that because they think it's an investment, that there are no ways to recoup their costs - legally. It's disturbing to say the least.

I didn't say there is no way to get your money back in regard to crowdfunding, I said in the case of real investment there are plenty of cases of that. I said there are as of yet a lot of unknowns (how it would play out in actual litigation) in regard to crowdfunding. BTW where did I defend the state of the project?

What? There are unknowns? Did you invent them? Whatever. I don't know where you defended the state of the project.

Can you show me cases of legit crowdfunded products that failed, that through a court of law owed everyone their money? If not that would be an unknown, as when it comes down to it, until that happens there is no precedent for what would happen. You might have people making chargebacks to their banks and CC companies, but that is not the same thing as the law ruling on such a case.

My argument is that because no one on the supreme court (any court according to you) has not ruled on it, then current law applies. Where do you get your opinion from? You invented it to support your point of view.

COURTS DON'T HAVE TO RULE ON IT IF ACCEPTED LAWS ARE ALREADY IN PLACE.

I didn't invent it, it hasn't happened; at least that I'm aware of. What you're saying is you can't commit fraud and scam people. Yes that is illegal, you're breaking laws in doing so. I am not disputing that in the least bit. However, what laws are in place to cover litigation of a legitimate cancellation/failure? one in which all effort was given, funds used properly etc..etc..etc..? None that I'm aware of, as no act of malice was committed.

SO the question becomes is it a criminal act to start a kickstarter that can fail? Should Crowdfunded games be held liable in the case of project failure... or..... like in the real world is that simply bad luck on the draw, some projects fail, some people lose their money in an investment...? Such a case is inevitable down the road, that's what will set a precedent. WHo knows maybe it will be SC..

klash2def · February 2016

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