We need to start thinking of MMO's as we do music or literature or the movies. There is not one MMO or one game that will be universally satisfactory to everyone's taste. MMO's don't come in one genre just as books or music doesn't come in one genre. Change and innovation is a good thing in the MMO industry just as it is in literature and music, but every MMO doesn't need to push the envelope or be cutting edge to be "good" or fun. It just needs to be good. The same is true for music. The same is true for books or for movies. Music evolves. MMO's evolve. Storytelling evolves. And in doing so, it doesn't make obsolete or not enjoyable everything that's been done before.
Underrated to me is something that not many played but was a great game
If it was a great game, many people would play it...
World of Warcraft has millions of player. However, according to a lot of people on this site it's a horrible game. Some even claim that it was the start of the downfall of the mmo genre as a whole. I don't feel that WoW is a bad game but peoples opinions very.
Population doesn't equal quality.
Some people like to throw out numbers....Heck even McDonalds sells millions of burgers but that doesnt mean they have good hamburgers right?
Thats because numbers are one of the few objective metrics. I dont think there are many, if any metrics on quality.
Define "good hamburger" without using your opinion....
SEANMCAD said: You cant just take raw numbers without considering the impact 100 million dollar marketing budget vs a $10 marketing budget has on the population of a game.
I can't...? I am fairly sure I can.
lol..
ok well its fine that you believe spending 100 million dollars on marketing has the same effect as spending $10 on marketing but that is so bizzare it almost makes me want to put you on ignore.
The irony is that YOU can't.
You can't separate marketing from the product, it is a whole package, thus considering 100M vs 10M marketing budget is absolutrely legit.
So if I spend 100 million to market turd cakes people will line up to buy after the first one they eat? Marketing gets butts in seats does not make them stay for the whole show.
stop trying to be the only guy who is not trolling on this forum who thinks my statement means 'in all cases'
So you are saying the best product out there could be the one with the most marketing?
yes but more than likely its usually not.
why are you the only one here trying to spin this?
Im not spinning anything. All I have done is quote your own statements. As for why I am posting on this topic? Up till now you have been very polar in your stance and I am board so it was fun debating the topic. P.S. See you in the DF re-release.
stop trying to be the only guy who is not trolling on this forum who thinks my statement means 'in all cases'
So you are saying the best product out there could be the one with the most marketing?
yes but more than likely its usually not.
why are you the only one here trying to spin this?
On the flip side a good product would have more money over its life from sales to afford more marketing vs one that sucked that has no inflow of cash for marketing...
Horusra said: So if I spend 100 million to market turd cakes people will line up to buy after the first one they eat? Marketing gets butts in seats does not make them stay for the whole show.
stop trying to be the only guy who is not trolling on this forum who thinks my statement means 'in all cases'
So you are saying the best product out there could be the one with the most marketing?
yes but more than likely its usually not.
why are you the only one here trying to spin this?
On the flip side a good product would have more money over its life from sales to afford more marketing vs one that sucked that has no inflow of cash for marketing...
not exactly...
that would have to assume many people know about it and without marketing that is not always a sure bet.
over my life I have known a few very very very good restaurants for their classification that ended up closing because very few people knew about them.
what are we arguing here anyway? that 400 billion dollars a year marking industry doesnt work and doesn't increase customers?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Horusra said: So if I spend 100 million to market turd cakes people will line up to buy after the first one they eat? Marketing gets butts in seats does not make them stay for the whole show.
...and?
their argument is that quantity does not equal quality because marketing brings the people into a product. My argument is that the product is quality cause the people stayed not because the people bought it once. 1 million buying something does not make it quality, 1 million staying makes it quality over something where 1 million bought, but only 100k stayed.
Horusra said: So if I spend 100 million to market turd cakes people will line up to buy after the first one they eat? Marketing gets butts in seats does not make them stay for the whole show.
...and?
their argument is that quantity does not equal quality because marketing brings the people into a product. My argument is that the product is quality cause the people stayed not because the people bought it once. 1 million buying something does not make it quality, 1 million staying makes it quality over something where 1 million bought, but only 100k stayed.
I would say that your evaluation is generally a better indicator. I mean there is product loyalty and customer not aware of other options to consider however looking closely your theory seems to be more true than not. Taking Skyrim vs Just Cause as possible example
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
stop trying to be the only guy who is not trolling on this forum who thinks my statement means 'in all cases'
So you are saying the best product out there could be the one with the most marketing?
yes but more than likely its usually not.
why are you the only one here trying to spin this?
On the flip side a good product would have more money over its life from sales to afford more marketing vs one that sucked that has no inflow of cash for marketing...
not exactly...
that would have to assume many people know about it and without marketing that is not always a sure bet.
over my life I have known a few very very very good restaurants for their classification that ended up closing because very few people knew about them.
what are we arguing here anyway? that 400 billion dollars a year marking industry doesnt work and doesn't increase customers?
your marketing references fail cause MMO require people to stay no just buy it once. They have to stay and spend money. The willingness to stay and spend is what makes the game quality. If there was no quality the people would leave. No amount of marketing will make people stay. It did not save Wildstar or many other games.
In your example if you restaurant was so "good" (a subjective term) then you would have told people and the would have told people and the base would have grown. Somewhere in that chain people did not find the restaurant to be so great as to encourage others to go. Or to encourage you to frequent the place more often.
their argument is that quantity does not equal quality because marketing brings the people into a product. My argument is that the product is quality cause the people stayed not because the people bought it once. 1 million buying something does not make it quality, 1 million staying makes it quality over something where 1 million bought, but only 100k stayed.
..you are talking about retention rate, not quality.
Although I somewhat agree. Marketing is just about letting people know, there is no point in making a product or providing a service no one knows about....again, it is a whole package that counts - how many people know about your product and how they like it.
Underrated to me is something that not many played but was a great game
If it was a great game, many people would play it...
World of Warcraft has millions of player. However, according to a lot of people on this site it's a horrible game. Some even claim that it was the start of the downfall of the mmo genre as a whole. I don't feel that WoW is a bad game but peoples opinions very.
Population doesn't equal quality.
Some people like to throw out numbers....Heck even McDonalds sells millions of burgers but that doesnt mean they have good hamburgers right?
Thats because numbers are one of the few objective metrics. I dont think there are many, if any metrics on quality.
Define "good hamburger" without using your opinion....
I would define a good hamburger as one that closely resembles what was advertised.
I don't have to like the hamburger in order for it to be good.
stop trying to be the only guy who is not trolling on this forum who thinks my statement means 'in all cases'
So you are saying the best product out there could be the one with the most marketing?
yes but more than likely its usually not.
why are you the only one here trying to spin this?
On the flip side a good product would have more money over its life from sales to afford more marketing vs one that sucked that has no inflow of cash for marketing...
not exactly...
that would have to assume many people know about it and without marketing that is not always a sure bet.
over my life I have known a few very very very good restaurants for their classification that ended up closing because very few people knew about them.
what are we arguing here anyway? that 400 billion dollars a year marking industry doesnt work and doesn't increase customers?
your marketing references fail cause MMO require people to stay no just buy it once. They have to stay and spend money. The willingness to stay and spend is what makes the game quality. If there was no quality the people would leave. No amount of marketing will make people stay. It did not save Wildstar or many other games.
In your example if you restaurant was so "good" (a subjective term) then you would have told people and the would have told people and the base would have grown. Somewhere in that chain people did not find the restaurant to be so great as to encourage others to go. Or to encourage you to frequent the place more often.
It's the same reason Wurm does so terribly. Some of the systems are kind of neat, but when it comes to quality (graphics/UI/bugs/gameplay/combat/almost everything), the game is incredibly lacking when compared to other, even similar in idea, titles.
Wurm is tiny not because of lack of marketing, but because when people played it, they didn't stick around. It was far too clunky in execution and honestly, in my opinion, calling Wurm the most underrated game of all time just made it the most overrated game of all time.
Graphics are still relevant. Combat is good with lots of class options (over 100 i believe) Crafting is complex but not complicated Housing/Farming is outstanding. Best I have ever seen and one of the big reasons I still love to play Ships and Sea Battles.... Great addition to any mmo Great fishing... how they made fishing fun in an mmo is mind blowing.
I think the horrible initial launch (i was not there) and the labor function killed off this game. I hope it sticks around for a long time.
their argument is that quantity does not equal quality because marketing brings the people into a product. My argument is that the product is quality cause the people stayed not because the people bought it once. 1 million buying something does not make it quality, 1 million staying makes it quality over something where 1 million bought, but only 100k stayed.
..you are talking about retention rate, not quality.
Although I somewhat agree. Marketing is just about letting people know, there is no point in making a product or providing a service no one knows about....again, it is a whole package that counts - how many people know about your product and how they like it.
in a realm where a MMO's quality is subjective to the user what other metric besides technical specs( i.e. lag, number of quest, etc.) that can be measured shows quality better than retention of players?
Underrated to me is something that not many played but was a great game
If it was a great game, many people would play it...
World of Warcraft has millions of player. However, according to a lot of people on this site it's a horrible game. Some even claim that it was the start of the downfall of the mmo genre as a whole. I don't feel that WoW is a bad game but peoples opinions very.
Population doesn't equal quality.
Some people like to throw out numbers....Heck even McDonalds sells millions of burgers but that doesnt mean they have good hamburgers right?
Thats because numbers are one of the few objective metrics. I dont think there are many, if any metrics on quality.
Define "good hamburger" without using your opinion....
I would define a good hamburger as one that closely resembles what was advertised.
I don't have to like the hamburger in order for it to be good.
So you "like" it, but it is not "good". Define "good" then? What makes something "good" that is not subjective? I could sell you are artificially lab created pseudo-meat hamburger with no natural items in it that looks like a picture....is that now a good hamburger?
I would define a good hamburger as one that closely resembles what was advertised.
I don't have to like the hamburger in order for it to be good.
yeah...I wouldnt agree with that assessment at all.
that is like saying what would otherwise be your favorite MMO ever is not of good quality because the marketing team didnt understand it completely
I ain't talking about a marketing campaign.
If I say my hamburger has 2 all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun and it has all those things and looks just like the picture on the menu. Then I would define that as a good burger, every thing else is opinion.
Graphics are still relevant. Combat is good with lots of class options (over 100 i believe) Crafting is complex but not complicated Housing/Farming is outstanding. Best I have ever seen and one of the big reasons I still love to play Ships and Sea Battles.... Great addition to any mmo Great fishing... how they made fishing fun in an mmo is mind blowing.
I think the horrible initial launch (i was not there) and the labor function killed off this game. I hope it sticks around for a long time.
as an aside I played that game and I could not stand the housing and farming I thought it was like a childs cartoon play yard at best. Now Wurm....now THAT is housing and farming...ha!
now THIS is a house and a farm...ha!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Graphics are still relevant. Combat is good with lots of class options (over 100 i believe) Crafting is complex but not complicated Housing/Farming is outstanding. Best I have ever seen and one of the big reasons I still love to play Ships and Sea Battles.... Great addition to any mmo Great fishing... how they made fishing fun in an mmo is mind blowing.
I think the horrible initial launch (i was not there) and the labor function killed off this game. I hope it sticks around for a long time.
as an aside I played that game and I could not stand the housing and farming I thought it was like a childs cartoon play yard at best. Now Wurm....now THAT is housing and farming...ha!
Graphics are still relevant. Combat is good with lots of class options (over 100 i believe) Crafting is complex but not complicated Housing/Farming is outstanding. Best I have ever seen and one of the big reasons I still love to play Ships and Sea Battles.... Great addition to any mmo Great fishing... how they made fishing fun in an mmo is mind blowing.
I think the horrible initial launch (i was not there) and the labor function killed off this game. I hope it sticks around for a long time.
as an aside I played that game and I could not stand the housing and farming I thought it was like a childs cartoon play yard at best. Now Wurm....now THAT is housing and farming...ha!
Yeah, but everything else was bad.
what you didnt like the combat!...ha!
but yeah given that housing, farm and your docks make up about 95% of the game I see no point in countering your claim
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
This thread is pointless since page 1.
"Underrated" game makes no sense whatsoever. All games are being rated - by people playing it or not playing.
why are you the only one here trying to spin this?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Define "good hamburger" without using your opinion....
So if I spend 100 million to market turd cakes people will line up to buy after the first one they eat? Marketing gets butts in seats does not make them stay for the whole show.
On the flip side a good product would have more money over its life from sales to afford more marketing vs one that sucked that has no inflow of cash for marketing...
that would have to assume many people know about it and without marketing that is not always a sure bet.
over my life I have known a few very very very good restaurants for their classification that ended up closing because very few people knew about them.
what are we arguing here anyway? that 400 billion dollars a year marking industry doesnt work and doesn't increase customers?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
your marketing references fail cause MMO require people to stay no just buy it once. They have to stay and spend money. The willingness to stay and spend is what makes the game quality. If there was no quality the people would leave. No amount of marketing will make people stay. It did not save Wildstar or many other games.
In your example if you restaurant was so "good" (a subjective term) then you would have told people and the would have told people and the base would have grown. Somewhere in that chain people did not find the restaurant to be so great as to encourage others to go. Or to encourage you to frequent the place more often.
Although I somewhat agree. Marketing is just about letting people know, there is no point in making a product or providing a service no one knows about....again, it is a whole package that counts - how many people know about your product and how they like it.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I don't have to like the hamburger in order for it to be good.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Wurm is tiny not because of lack of marketing, but because when people played it, they didn't stick around. It was far too clunky in execution and honestly, in my opinion, calling Wurm the most underrated game of all time just made it the most overrated game of all time.
that is like saying what would otherwise be your favorite MMO ever is not of good quality because the marketing team didnt understand it completely
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Graphics are still relevant.
Combat is good with lots of class options (over 100 i believe)
Crafting is complex but not complicated
Housing/Farming is outstanding. Best I have ever seen and one of the big reasons I still love to play
Ships and Sea Battles.... Great addition to any mmo
Great fishing... how they made fishing fun in an mmo is mind blowing.
I think the horrible initial launch (i was not there) and the labor function killed off this game. I hope it sticks around for a long time.
in a realm where a MMO's quality is subjective to the user what other metric besides technical specs( i.e. lag, number of quest, etc.) that can be measured shows quality better than retention of players?
So you "like" it, but it is not "good". Define "good" then? What makes something "good" that is not subjective? I could sell you are artificially lab created pseudo-meat hamburger with no natural items in it that looks like a picture....is that now a good hamburger?
If I say my hamburger has 2 all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun and it has all those things and looks just like the picture on the menu. Then I would define that as a good burger, every thing else is opinion.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
now THIS is a house and a farm...ha!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
but yeah given that housing, farm and your docks make up about 95% of the game I see no point in countering your claim
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me