Originally posted by BurningPain Before I begin note that there are three different types of players.
Four Types actually
Care bears 1 and Carebears 2
Care bears 1 play that way cause they can't play any other way
Care bears 2 play Non PvP because we want to play a game that lets us forget the world we live in, not mimick it.
Evil Players (The Wolves) - Evil players kill for loot, greed and enjoy watching other players suffer. These players are totally chaotic.
These are usually the 12 year old kids who bought their account on ebay and have mommie and daddy pay for their play time
Good Players (The Grizzly Bears) - Good players have witnessed the suffering of others at the hands of evil players. These good players have chosen to protect the weaker ones against the evil. They focus on hunting down evil players, kiilling them, returning loot back to the weak in some cases. They uphold law & order.
These are the teenagers who think the world cant and shouldn't exist without them. We undertstand, we were once teenagers too.
Citizen (Aka Carebear, The Sheep) - The citizens aka carebears are the peasents. The ones who don't know how to choose or how to react. Too afraid to take risk and worthless on the battlefield. The citizen contributes nothing. Unfortunately the way MMORPG's are now, there are too many citizens and not enough players sworn to good or evil.
These are the people who work for a living, have to deal with snot nosed little punks all the time, and just want to play a little game (please don't forget this is all just a game, but you'll learn that when you move out on your own and have bills to pay) without being harrased
"What did carebears lose?" Carebears have lost the choice to choose between "Good" & "Evil". What mmorpg in today's market allows you to truly be evil & truly be good? In World of warcraft there is no "evil". Everyone is of good alignment. If you kill a so called enemy player they can come back into combat 30 seconds later and they lose absolutely nothing. This is no war, this is not controversey. Good & Evil are not present, only citizens (aka carebears). Most mmorpgs now a days you can't even message your enemy.
What hollywood movie have you seen where the good guy doesn't speak with the bad guy? It's almost unheard of.
I loved this! You point out your own immature thought pattern. When if ever has there been a hollywwod movie that a fantasy character has sent a message to the bad guy? Every MMORPG I have played, you can talk with the enemy, you just can't message them. Nor can you understand the language (seems right to me, I no more understand Arabic than I do German, not to say either are my enemy) which seems right to me.
"What did carebears win?" Carebears won peace of mind. Safety. Citizens aka carebears can venture into so called dangerous territory and not have to worry about other players killing them and taking all their loot. Citizens aka carebears need no longer worry about a "Deadly" adversary. The carebears are weak, but the problem is they are many.
What did we win? Nothing, we are paying to play a game, who are you to tell us what we should or shouldn't do? The American Government?
So carebears, how does it feel to be "Satisfied" but not truly happy with the mmorpg you are playing?
World of warcraft for example = millions of "Satisfied" customers who are not really happy with the game but satisfied.
Humans are meant to experience controversey, anger, the sweet taste of revenge, the spoils of war (looting an enemy player) etc........
Tell you what, when you suffer through any of that in RL, then come talk to us and say you want to experience it in game.
So carebears have you truly won?
I don't think so........
Luzarius
I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self. --Aristotle
huoh.... "if you kill other players you are 12 years old kid..." that is the most stupid thing you can say about player killers... go home.... pfffttt... Player killers kill because they like it and there is nothing wrong with getting some free loot.
It's pretty funny to see certain pvp hardcore players accussing the fact, as they called it, that the carebears dont have any fun while playing. In other words millions and millions of players are atm paying for a game without having fun while playing. And why dont they have fun? The minority of hardcore pvp-ers cant have full ffa which should make the game the carebears atm play more fun for the carebears. Wonder how many of those hardcore pvp players are politician's in their RL......
The message the mmorpg industry gives is quite clear: There arent enough players who want to play full ffa pvp games. So either those hardcore pvp players build their own games or they are stuck in playing a game they dont like while the carebears login very happy and are having a blast.
Now if you dont mind i go back and wait for lineage 2 chron 5 to patch up. I love pvp at times and sometimes i hate it. Hence the reason i play two games. Maybe i am lucky and i find some hardcore pvp noobs playing so i can crush their ego's deeper in the shit they are already in 8)
Originally posted by parrotpholk K I think this debate has about run its course in general. Yes the PK crowd should have something and the casual crowd should have something so why again is there this huge debate? O yeah neither wants the other to have his lol.
The debate exists for this one reason. It is imposible for the PK crowd to have something and the carebears to have something at the same time, because what the PK crowd wants, is to be able to PK carebears. The PK crowd needs targets. The carebears are the target -- easy prey. Without them, the PKers end up with a tiny little server of VERY difficult to beat targets, which means you can't really PK at all. So if the carebears get what they want (safety from PKing), then the PKers cannot. And if the PKers get what they want (open PKing) the carebears cannot. Notice how the PKers all whine for the "glory days of pre-trammel UO." Why? Was it that good? Not really. But back then, UO was the only game in town... so people who wanted to play on online fantasy RPG, had to play UO, and had to be open to being ganked. Thus, there was a plethora of easy targets on pre-trammel UO, which is what the PKers want.
Once EQ came along and prevented that, and the "safe zones" were created in UO, there was a "giant sucking sound" as those things sucked all the people who hated being victimized by these PKers into them, and out of the open PVP areas in UO... and that was pretty much the end of open PVP as we know it. Other than Lineage 1 and 2, every other successful game on the market has restricted PVP. The games like WOW or GW that instance everything, or like SWG or Ryzom where you turn your PVP flag on or off, allow people who would, in an open free-for-all-game, be the easy targets, to basically turn themselves invulnerable to PKing. Without them, there are no targets, and the PKers don't get to have fun.
It really is that simple -- lack of targets to pick on. Lack of easy prey. That's why I don't buy the "I want a challenge" argument. The challenge is already there on open PVP servers. It's just that everyone on those, is already a good PVPer and a "hard" target. The easy prey are all on the PVE servers or in private instances, and that's why the PK crowd gets upset. Bullies need the weaklings to pick on and steal lunch money from. A school full of bullies wouldn't be any fun for the bully.
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by parrotpholk K I think this debate has about run its course in general. Yes the PK crowd should have something and the casual crowd should have something so why again is there this huge debate? O yeah neither wants the other to have his lol.
The debate exists for this one reason. It is imposible for the PK crowd to have something and the carebears to have something at the same time, because what the PK crowd wants, is to be able to PK carebears. The PK crowd needs targets. The carebears are the target -- easy prey. Without them, the PKers end up with a tiny little server of VERY difficult to beat targets, which means you can't really PK at all. So if the carebears get what they want (safety from PKing), then the PKers cannot. And if the PKers get what they want (open PKing) the carebears cannot. Notice how the PKers all whine for the "glory days of pre-trammel UO." Why? Was it that good? Not really. But back then, UO was the only game in town... so people who wanted to play on online fantasy RPG, had to play UO, and had to be open to being ganked. Thus, there was a plethora of easy targets on pre-trammel UO, which is what the PKers want.
Once EQ came along and prevented that, and the "safe zones" were created in UO, there was a "giant sucking sound" as those things sucked all the people who hated being victimized by these PKers into them, and out of the open PVP areas in UO... and that was pretty much the end of open PVP as we know it. Other than Lineage 1 and 2, every other successful game on the market has restricted PVP. The games like WOW or GW that instance everything, or like SWG or Ryzom where you turn your PVP flag on or off, allow people who would, in an open free-for-all-game, be the easy targets, to basically turn themselves invulnerable to PKing. Without them, there are no targets, and the PKers don't get to have fun.
It really is that simple -- lack of targets to pick on. Lack of easy prey. That's why I don't buy the "I want a challenge" argument. The challenge is already there on open PVP servers. It's just that everyone on those, is already a good PVPer and a "hard" target. The easy prey are all on the PVE servers or in private instances, and that's why the PK crowd gets upset. Bullies need the weaklings to pick on and steal lunch money from. A school full of bullies wouldn't be any fun for the bully.
Originally posted by baronviktor Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by parrotpholkK I think this debate has about run its course in general. Yes the PK crowd should have something and the casual crowd should have something so why again is there this huge debate? O yeah neither wants the other to have his lol. The debate exists for this one reason. It is imposible for the PK crowd to have something and the carebears to have something at the same time, because what the PK crowd wants, is to be able to PK carebears. The PK crowd needs targets. The carebears are the target -- easy prey. Without them, the PKers end up with a tiny little server of VERY difficult to beat targets, which means you can't really PK at all. So if the carebears get what they want (safety from PKing), then the PKers cannot. And if the PKers get what they want (open PKing) the carebears cannot. Notice how the PKers all whine for the "glory days of pre-trammel UO." Why? Was it that good? Not really. But back then, UO was the only game in town... so people who wanted to play on online fantasy RPG, had to play UO, and had to be open to being ganked. Thus, there was a plethora of easy targets on pre-trammel UO, which is what the PKers want.Once EQ came along and prevented that, and the "safe zones" were created in UO, there was a "giant sucking sound" as those things sucked all the people who hated being victimized by these PKers into them, and out of the open PVP areas in UO... and that was pretty much the end of open PVP as we know it. Other than Lineage 1 and 2, every other successful game on the market has restricted PVP. The games like WOW or GW that instance everything, or like SWG or Ryzom where you turn your PVP flag on or off, allow people who would, in an open free-for-all-game, be the easy targets, to basically turn themselves invulnerable to PKing. Without them, there are no targets, and the PKers don't get to have fun.It really is that simple -- lack of targets to pick on. Lack of easy prey. That's why I don't buy the "I want a challenge" argument. The challenge is already there on open PVP servers. It's just that everyone on those, is already a good PVPer and a "hard" target. The easy prey are all on the PVE servers or in private instances, and that's why the PK crowd gets upset. Bullies need the weaklings to pick on and steal lunch money from. A school full of bullies wouldn't be any fun for the bully.CVery nice post, basically sums it up.
I would agree largely except for the fact that some of PvEers are very good at PvP but prefer the PvE game and would rather not play PvP.
Also you have to remember that PvE is the bases for Table Top/Dice roleplay games, a lot of people come from that background. Generally its frowned on to kill another player without good cause in a table top game.
So you end up with a large PvE based community that frowns on ganking people.
As a PvEer, I find the statements of the PvE game are boring, hilarious. Of course I spend a lot of time playing a game I don't like, ffs...
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS) Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
Originally posted by Chessack It really is that simple -- lack of targets to pick on. Lack of easy prey. That's why I don't buy the "I want a challenge" argument. The challenge is already there on open PVP servers. It's just that everyone on those, is already a good PVPer and a "hard" target. The easy prey are all on the PVE servers or in private instances, and that's why the PK crowd gets upset. Bullies need the weaklings to pick on and steal lunch money from. A school full of bullies wouldn't be any fun for the bully.
C
It's fun at times to play lineage 2. I love both pve and pvp games. Its just the mood i have, at days i pvp and at days i just want to pve. For pvp i use lineage 2 and for pve i use a pve server in WoW.
When entering lingea 2 i know i will get ganked and depending on the way that happens i gank back. I dont mind following people around and kill them and i dont mind to have players on my tail who want my blood. IUts the thrill of the game.
When i am in the pve mood i dive into my undead warrior and duo with my wife's priest and just play for fun and hunt/roleplay my way around. Nothing wrong with that and i cant understand the reason some harcore pvp-ers (i say some because there are enough hardcore pvp players who wont deny the pve players their fun) for more or less saying that carebears suck.
Want to know something funny. The whining at times in lineage 2 sounds the same as i have read in some posts of hardcore pvp players when they killed a carebear pvp player (yes they excist but since they dont want ffa pvp these players are also called carebears). It seems that those hardcore pvp players whine as loud as some of the carebears do when getting ganked. So in other words they arent much different in attitude and/or feelings while playing.
To get back to the post i quoted. Yes it seems we have a large group of so called "hardcore pvp-ers" who like to gank easy targets. Its also the group with the biggest mouth on these forums. Its the group who calls players who think different as they do carebears. Its the group who is whining loud when they get ganked back. And its also the group that gives the hardcore pvp croud the bad name because their are a lot of hardcore pvp players who understand why not all people love pvp and they keep their mouth shut.
Originally posted by sempiternal Originally posted by slapme7times risk can turn boring and seemingly meaningless activities into exciting ones.without threat of loss, winning becomes meaningless.without consequences, our choices make no difference.why do you think people have been gambling for thousands and thousands of years? it's not because drawing straws or flipping coins is fun. it's because there's risk involved- chance of failure and chance of success, and then consequences later which make it important.Slapme7times, gets it. He understands life. The carebears, however, are lost in fantasy worlds that will eventually bore them.
null So i have one thing to say to all the people who seem to want thier mmo's to be so true to life. does that mean you want to have a game where you get one life and only one life, if you die you can never play again? because then that would be true to life and there for right up your alleys. i mean there is truelly no risks in an mmo if you die, you respawn. there are no real consequences to dying at all except time and well people tend to have that one in some form or another.
but if you could only play a game till you died and could never play again, then there would be true consequences to it. but then again i doubt it would be fun, and it really boils down then to what you think is fun, and not what is true to life or meaningful.. and fun is subjective...
Wolves eat Sheep. Can the sheep ever fight back and win against a wolf? No. So if you were a sheep why on earth would you ever want to be put in a position to constantly be eaten?
All you wolves out there, your most likely cowards in real life, who only do things you know you can win at, and never take real chances.
Speaking to WOW specifically (make the translation to your MMO if you don't play wow). I find it interesting how few "wolves" will engage in world pvp against another target when that target is percieved as equal or better (in gear and/or level). The "wolves" will amost always prey on the "sheep". Rarely do you see two wolves fighting. On a PVP server "sheep" being any character who no matter what would be no threat to a "wolf".
I have played PVP and PVE servers, I find the PVE server with optional areas where everyone has choosen to go and engage in PVP of similiar level players to always be more fun. PVP servers I've found to be rank with "gankers" and people of low self esteem whose only joy is knowing they have brought pain to someone elses day, even if it is just knowing they made some lower level loose 10 minutes of their day running back to their corpse to be killed again.
I think the biggest problem with this issue nowadays is that in many games on the market, you don't have the choice to be wolf, or carebear, or whatever. This is decided for you by the developers - if the game doesnt support your preferred playstyle, don't play it. I rather miss the old school, where PvP was an optional but by no means necessary part of the game - you could do it if you chose, and if you chose not to, it did not hamper your advancement in the game in any way. Now we have PvP in many games as a way to earn special skills or items the more time you spend ganking - this I view as unacceptable. If your aim is truly to kill other players, why are you playing an mmo? Why not go play an FPS? Is it because FPS games tend to start players out on 'equal' grounds - ala equal weapons, gear, etc. and you don't want that, you'd rather prey on weaker, lower level (or just plain uninterested in pvp) players? I think honestly, that must be the thrill, otherwise all the pvp kiddies would just go back to counterstrike and etc.
I honestly don't understand why pvp for advancement was put into the MMORPG. It goes against the very idea of the genre, being that of a role playing game, not a gankfest. PvP on an optional basis, for fun? Why not? This existed in many of the older games ( Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, old-school DaoC (before realm abilities), etc. ) - games in which you could PvP if you wanted to, but if you weren't interested, the rest of the game content was still available to you. In AC1, you had to go swear at an altar to go 'red' and then you could attack and be attacked by other players who had done the same. In AO, you had to 'flag', and could attack other flagged players. If you went into the enemies capital city with a damage shield, you could be flagged by guards attacking you - but everything else in the game was available to you without ever putting yourself in that position, if you chose not to. You could get personal aircraft to fly over 'supression zones' if you weren't interested. I remember when AC2 came out, the 'high lvl areas' were not pvp zones, but you had to cross over a PvP zone as the only way to get there ....was seriously a game of step through the portal and mash your run key cause the moment you loaded, everyone would be attacking you. Was rather silly. In DaoC, (pre realm ability) PvP zones were completely unrelated to the PvE zones, and a character could achieve maximum lvl and all the best gear without ever stepping into the PvP area. This kept PvP as optional, as it should be.
Am I saying that games based around PvP are bad? Not at all. But a game designed with PvP in mind, and advertised as such, typically wont draw those players who aren't interested. I remember thinking RF online looked beautiful back when I saw all the hype, but it was clearly stated to be a PvP game - so, no thanks. In WoW you would be 'flagged' if you stepped into an enemy capital or attacked any enemy guards but really, 99.9% of the game content was doable without worrying about being attacked by the other faction (except pvp oriented battlegrounds, and one quest that had you kill an enemy guard thus exposing you to danger.). This was fine - and these games with larger subscription bases could make special ruleset servers FOR the pvp kiddies to play on.
The playerbase is a large part of this. I played Lineage2 to the lvl cap and only once or twice did I ever get PKd ( in a game where you can attack anyone, anywhere, anytime - except in town - with no provocation or etc.) But really, I tend to stay away from these kind of games - because PvP is NOT optional, its programmed into the game, ganking can and will happen, because people who have nothing better to do ( the evil wolves?) just want to ruin other peoples fun because it makes them feel better about themselves, or whatever.
Think about it. How many subscriptions will really be lost if PvP was made into an OPTIONAL part of the game. Optional meaning simply that. Sure, you can get a special title for pvp to show off how l33t you are, but players who don't care about that can still enjoy the questing/xping/raiding etc. The only people who would have a problem with that are those who prey on casual players or lower lvl players and honestly...? I like to say that is not the majority. Its a balance really, because how many casual players would choose to NOT play a game in which they are nothing but victims? By making PvP an optional part of gameplay, you aren't depriving anyone of anything. People who want to can, people who don't want to don't have to. Whats the problem? How many times will a casual player - maybe someone whose taken a long time to get where they are ( while still paying the same monthly subscription fee as everyone else ) accept being ganked by someone they had no chance against, losing their items and / or xp, before they move to another game? I know many that many people who think that once is enough.
A lot of people play games to get away from real life and all its ugliness - not to immerse ourselves in it.
Gaming? That's not gaming! That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
PvE only - are into the game purely to play against the game with friends and RP and do what they want and dictate how they spend their time. As some one who has been killing these peeps for years i will tell you they really do not want to pvp at all. They have their fun by killing mobs and hanging out with their friends doing stuff. Some actually prefer to do things solo (lone wolf type). These players are the least likely to want to get ganked by a pker but in my experience are usually the ones most likely to. These are the true sheep in MMORPG land.
This group usually likes moderate amounts of grinding and lots of good content and places to explore and things to do.
For all those old school UO Pkers wishing for the glory days of the foxes in the henhouse keep wishing. These players will never again play a game that opens them up to that kind of awesomeness. They dont find being prey fun and will avoid open pvp...full loot games for the most part.
PvE mostly and PvP when they want to.
I would actually argue that this may be the largest group players in MMO today. This type of player wants complete control of their play experience. Even though i am pretty much a PKer at heart i also sometimes fall into this category at times. Life is busy and i just want to come home hop into the game and play a bit without having to look over my shoulder. Watch some tv while i play for a few hours. And then when i feel like it i go out and pvp a bit (BF2 largely serves this role for now, but does not offer the same amout of immersion i love in a good MMORPG). Unfortunately this gaming style never really appeals to me long term and I get bored, but many people dont and would be happy in any game that offered both options, and gave them the control of their gaming time.
This group would be against open pvp, and probably against full looting. They really want a safe gaming experience and have a little bit of action, but not to much; just enough to keep it intersting.
Carebear killers -
This is the group of PvP players that enjoy killing opponents that cannot fight back. They exist in every pvp game and have been around since UO. These are the gate campers in eve, the guys who load killed you in SWG, the rogue who stealths into low zones to gank to noobs (my personal favorite was the ones who used priests to mind control people getting off of gryphs to have the guards kill them). I hate to break the myth but most of these guys are not 12 (not all of them are even guys), they are not shut ins who live in their parents basement. They are normal people (most of the time, some social rejects exist in every category) who really enjoy the experience of killing lots of people. I would liken these peeps to people that still enjoy playing Dynasty Warriors after about an hour. I personally have little respect for the skills these players think they have, they usually run from fights they dont think they have a 100% chance of winning. They prefer when their prey complain and whine...posting about them on forums is the ultimate win for them. This type definetly prefers open pvp, full loot or what ever crzy death penalty they could inflict on their victim. The penalty to dying is part of what they find fun.
I spent a lot more time on this category because i would say next to the all pve crowd this is the other crowd that gets the most attention.
The greatest game ever for this type of player was UO. Early versions of WOW are a close second just for the sheer amount of whinage spewed on the forums about ganking on a pvp server. The first several months of WOW were actually tons of fun for most of this group. You will often hear them say that WOW got boring real fast...Why? Because blizzard made it more difficult to gank noobs in towns, most players leveled up to 60 pretty quick. Instanced raids left them with little targets. If WOW had no instances and these guys could single handly cause a 40 man raid to wipe they would have been in MMO heaven for about another month, till all the sheep rolled PvE serves.
The group of people that fall into this category isnt as big as most thinkn, but there victims whine so much they get more attention then they deserve.
This group also surprising likes steep level or skill grinds. They are usually able to climb to the top faster and that gives them an edge in combat from people who grind slower.
PvPer -
These are the guys who actually like to fight other PvP players, not slay random carebears running around. They are yet to find a suitable game for themselves. They usually want more out of pvp then just random killing for the sake of killing. You will usually hear them asking for goals and reasons to pvp like owning cities or castles and creating player run kingdoms to fight over. They would usually prefer full loot, open pvp. They prefer as short a learning curve to max skill as possible. This enables them to get into the game faster and start killing and participating in the combat sooner. IF you want to get into a game that has castle sieges and town banes and such you dont want to spend months getting ready to fight (this is actually one of the drawbacks to eve in my opinion eventhough i play it).
This is the one group that has truely never had a great game designed for its playstyle. It may because the community is so small and nobody wants to take the chance.
So there is my opinion. on it all.
I think that the carebear crowd is perfectly happy playing pve and if they werent they would just find another game. More PvE games then any other genre honestly.
The pve/pvp group is aslo pretty happy. Developers have noticed this tendancy and are putting out more games with this type of function. Although a lot more game such as ryzom and eve where some content is pvp only may be a trend worth watching to see how it works out. This gives the player a good amount of control but still has a bit of an open pvp feel in some areas. I am fan of this aproach and I think it has some promise.
The carebear killer crowd is in the toughest position. The days of slaying sheep for hours on end may be dying down. There are just to many options for the carebears to avoid these players. for the most part they will never have it as good as they had in the past.
The pvper
A bit of hope on the horizon but we will see if any of it delivers. I believe a game that offers a great dynamic pvp model with goals of conquest and empire/kingdom building may have a larger appeal then people think. The carebear killers will probably also come to this game and will lost likey be stuck ganking noobs coming out of cities or in prime grinding spots. but they wont get the general satisfaction they get from killing carebears because a pvp player base will just suck it up and move on...
Cant we all just play different games...it really is just the best solution. Old School UO will never happen again, the sheep have moved on it is time the wolves did as well.
Just a few days ago in real life, someone hit 24 people in a car. That's called life. Shouldn't be any different in a MMORPG.
Umm.... yes it should? I don't enjoy hearing about someone sowing random violence on 24 people in real life, why would I want to pay $15 a month to hear about it in a game I'm playing for fun?
So if there was someone who was just running around ganking everyone, word would get out and a search party would be formed and that player would be found and killed.
This assumes you have a meaningful result from "killing" someone, such as permadeath or other serious ramifications for such actions. Using the language of the original poster, if a Wolf ganks some Carebears, is hunted down and neutralized by the Grizzlies, then comes back and does it repeatedly, then the death system is broken. For there to be good and evil there MUST be meaningful results from doing good and doing evil. If doing evil just gets you a trip back to your bindstone/graveyard/whatever and you can come and do evil again, then the entire system on which the good and evil actions are predicated is worthless.
I basically agree with neschria, too. As I just mentioned in another PVP complaint thread, plenty of people enjoy stuff other than PVP.
EDIT: woops, didn't read the rest of this thread before posting. I think aote2000's post is insightful and on-target as well.
Bloody hell, quit calling people that don't like PvP "Carebears". Are you children that need to suck your thumb to fall asleep and can't live without your blanky? Grow up.
Originally posted by Moirae Bloody hell, quit calling people that don't like PvP "Carebears". Are you children that need to suck your thumb to fall asleep and can't live without your blanky? Grow up.
Calling someone out for calling people names...and in the same sentence insulting them and calling them babies is a bit hypocritical isnt it.
Originally posted by Zergor Wolves eat Sheep. Can the sheep ever fight back and win against a wolf? No. So if you were a sheep why on earth would you ever want to be put in a position to constantly be eaten?
All you wolves out there, your most likely cowards in real life, who only do things you know you can win at, and never take real chances.
Speaking to WOW specifically (make the translation to your MMO if you don't play wow). I find it interesting how few "wolves" will engage in world pvp against another target when that target is percieved as equal or better (in gear and/or level). The "wolves" will amost always prey on the "sheep". Rarely do you see two wolves fighting. On a PVP server "sheep" being any character who no matter what would be no threat to a "wolf".
I have played PVP and PVE servers, I find the PVE server with optional areas where everyone has choosen to go and engage in PVP of similiar level players to always be more fun. PVP servers I've found to be rank with "gankers" and people of low self esteem whose only joy is knowing they have brought pain to someone elses day, even if it is just knowing they made some lower level loose 10 minutes of their day running back to their corpse to be killed again.
That's the whole point of being a Wolf.
Wolves compete for dominance, form packs, and hunt sheep.
Sheep survive by reproducing faster than they can be eaten, and by being domesticated by stronger predators such as humans, who let them live and reproduce and receive protection from wolves, in exchange for their wool.
Wolves die. Wolves get shot by ranchers. Wolves starve. Wolves freeze. They get caught in traps. The life of a wolf is hard, thats why they are viscious, they can't afford to make mistakes, they can't afford not to eat, they are literally 2 meals away from starvation.
Miners join strong corporations that can protect them, in exchange they provide their services, its a tribal relationship based on mutual need like the sheep and the farmer.
Most people are antisocial c*nts.
They dont want to share anything, they dont want to be part of anything, they want to hunt solo and grind mobs for flaming +5 sword of ownage.
Thats what the average mmo player wants, thats why WoW is a big hit.
The ideal MMORPG imho provides a symbiotic relationship between civilians (carebears) and soldiers (pvpers)
The carebears main job is to provide support services, such as mining, manufacturing and driving freighters, they provide support services for their faction. They are vulnerable to attack, but their value to their team facilitates that they be protected from attackers.
In this manner, carebears and hatebears can co-exist for mutual benefit.
As far as "pve" games where everybody is a "soldier" and the only opposition is NPC's, thats for little kids up to age 12.
Walking around with heavy armor, flaming sword, and a warhorse, and having the computer prevent you from being attacked is just plain WRONG.
If you pretend to be any kind of badass, you should be open to attack by other players.
If you claim yourself as a civilian, then I am okay with the NPC cops protecting you from attack.
But claiming yourself as a combatant and still expecting protection by the game mechanics? No, this is wrong.
Originally posted by fizzle322 The ideal MMORPG imho provides a symbiotic relationship between civilians (carebears) and soldiers (pvpers)
The carebears main job is to provide support services, such as mining, manufacturing and driving freighters, they provide support services for their faction. They are vulnerable to attack, but their value to their team facilitates that they be protected from attackers.
In this manner, carebears and hatebears can co-exist for mutual benefit.
As far as "pve" games where everybody is a "soldier" and the only opposition is NPC's, thats for little kids up to age 12.
Walking around with heavy armor, flaming sword, and a warhorse, and having the computer prevent you from being attacked is just plain WRONG.
If you pretend to be any kind of badass, you should be open to attack by other players.
If you claim yourself as a civilian, then I am okay with the NPC cops protecting you from attack.
But claiming yourself as a combatant and still expecting protection by the game mechanics? No, this is wrong.
HAHAHA jesus you are .
I mean you call alot of people children (MMORPG need Credit/Debit cards, if they were designed for 12 and up they wouldn't). Also are you inferring all Single Player games are made for age 12 and up?
Then say "badass" in relation to activities in a freakin game...
Sad Sad Sadson of the Clan McSad from Sadland.
Its a VIDEO GAME, no matter what you do you are not a "badass", "hard", "cool", "l33t", etc.
As for your PvPers are "Soldiers", please please be joking.
Soldiers fight when, where and who their told by their Civilian Goverments. The only PvP system where the PvPers can claim to be soldiers is Faction vs Faction PvP, Not Open PvP
Soldiers do not run around attacking anyone they see because they feel like it. Thats whay psychos do.
Single player games are more like movies. You pop in the CD, you play it, you finish it, done.
If you cast yourself as a flaming sword wielding, armored brute on horseback, you should have to back up that role.
Its like someone casting himself as Darth Vader and running around picking daises, with all the Jedis following him around spamming him with /duel
Its unrealistic and totally against the spirit of a Role Playing game.
If you declare yourself a combatant, with the perks thereof (cool armor, flaming sword, warhorse) then other people need to be able to knock you off that armored horse (if they are able.)
Otherwise those perks are window dressing, and you are basically playing with dolls.
Its like someone casting himself as Darth Vader and running around picking daises, with all the Jedis following him around spamming him with /duel
Or maybe like someone casting themselves as a tough, badass rebel without a cause, and spending their time playing video games and bragging about it on internet message boards?
Originally posted by fizzle322 Single player games are more like movies. You pop in the CD, you play it, you finish it, done.
If you cast yourself as a flaming sword wielding, armored brute on horseback, you should have to back up that role.
Its like someone casting himself as Darth Vader and running around picking daises, with all the Jedis following him around spamming him with /duel
Its unrealistic and totally against the spirit of a Role Playing game.
If you declare yourself a combatant, with the perks thereof (cool armor, flaming sword, warhorse) then other people need to be able to knock you off that armored horse (if they are able.)
Otherwise those perks are window dressing, and you are basically playing with dolls.
But that is how I want to play. I am the guy who plays Madden on thje easiest setting and wins 152-0. Yes it is unreal, but it is fun for me.
For me it is about Fun and PVP is not fun for me. I am happy it is for you.
Comments
I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self.
--Aristotle
huoh.... "if you kill other players you are 12 years old kid..." that is the most stupid thing you can say about player killers... go home.... pfffttt... Player killers kill because they like it and there is nothing wrong with getting some free loot.
It's pretty funny to see certain pvp hardcore players accussing the fact, as they called it, that the carebears dont have any fun while playing. In other words millions and millions of players are atm paying for a game without having fun while playing. And why dont they have fun? The minority of hardcore pvp-ers cant have full ffa which should make the game the carebears atm play more fun for the carebears. Wonder how many of those hardcore pvp players are politician's in their RL......
The message the mmorpg industry gives is quite clear: There arent enough players who want to play full ffa pvp games. So either those hardcore pvp players build their own games or they are stuck in playing a game they dont like while the carebears login very happy and are having a blast.
Now if you dont mind i go back and wait for lineage 2 chron 5 to patch up. I love pvp at times and sometimes i hate it. Hence the reason i play two games. Maybe i am lucky and i find some hardcore pvp noobs playing so i can crush their ego's deeper in the shit they are already in 8)
Once EQ came along and prevented that, and the "safe zones" were created in UO, there was a "giant sucking sound" as those things sucked all the people who hated being victimized by these PKers into them, and out of the open PVP areas in UO... and that was pretty much the end of open PVP as we know it. Other than Lineage 1 and 2, every other successful game on the market has restricted PVP. The games like WOW or GW that instance everything, or like SWG or Ryzom where you turn your PVP flag on or off, allow people who would, in an open free-for-all-game, be the easy targets, to basically turn themselves invulnerable to PKing. Without them, there are no targets, and the PKers don't get to have fun.
It really is that simple -- lack of targets to pick on. Lack of easy prey. That's why I don't buy the "I want a challenge" argument. The challenge is already there on open PVP servers. It's just that everyone on those, is already a good PVPer and a "hard" target. The easy prey are all on the PVE servers or in private instances, and that's why the PK crowd gets upset. Bullies need the weaklings to pick on and steal lunch money from. A school full of bullies wouldn't be any fun for the bully.
C
Once EQ came along and prevented that, and the "safe zones" were created in UO, there was a "giant sucking sound" as those things sucked all the people who hated being victimized by these PKers into them, and out of the open PVP areas in UO... and that was pretty much the end of open PVP as we know it. Other than Lineage 1 and 2, every other successful game on the market has restricted PVP. The games like WOW or GW that instance everything, or like SWG or Ryzom where you turn your PVP flag on or off, allow people who would, in an open free-for-all-game, be the easy targets, to basically turn themselves invulnerable to PKing. Without them, there are no targets, and the PKers don't get to have fun.
It really is that simple -- lack of targets to pick on. Lack of easy prey. That's why I don't buy the "I want a challenge" argument. The challenge is already there on open PVP servers. It's just that everyone on those, is already a good PVPer and a "hard" target. The easy prey are all on the PVE servers or in private instances, and that's why the PK crowd gets upset. Bullies need the weaklings to pick on and steal lunch money from. A school full of bullies wouldn't be any fun for the bully.
C
Very nice post, basically sums it up.
Yep.. sums it up perfectly!!
I would agree largely except for the fact that some of PvEers are very good at PvP but prefer the PvE game and would rather not play PvP.
Also you have to remember that PvE is the bases for Table Top/Dice roleplay games, a lot of people come from that background. Generally its frowned on to kill another player without good cause in a table top game.
So you end up with a large PvE based community that frowns on ganking people.
As a PvEer, I find the statements of the PvE game are boring, hilarious. Of course I spend a lot of time playing a game I don't like, ffs...
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
It's fun at times to play lineage 2. I love both pve and pvp games. Its just the mood i have, at days i pvp and at days i just want to pve. For pvp i use lineage 2 and for pve i use a pve server in WoW.
When entering lingea 2 i know i will get ganked and depending on the way that happens i gank back. I dont mind following people around and kill them and i dont mind to have players on my tail who want my blood. IUts the thrill of the game.
When i am in the pve mood i dive into my undead warrior and duo with my wife's priest and just play for fun and hunt/roleplay my way around. Nothing wrong with that and i cant understand the reason some harcore pvp-ers (i say some because there are enough hardcore pvp players who wont deny the pve players their fun) for more or less saying that carebears suck.
Want to know something funny. The whining at times in lineage 2 sounds the same as i have read in some posts of hardcore pvp players when they killed a carebear pvp player (yes they excist but since they dont want ffa pvp these players are also called carebears). It seems that those hardcore pvp players whine as loud as some of the carebears do when getting ganked. So in other words they arent much different in attitude and/or feelings while playing.
To get back to the post i quoted. Yes it seems we have a large group of so called "hardcore pvp-ers" who like to gank easy targets. Its also the group with the biggest mouth on these forums. Its the group who calls players who think different as they do carebears. Its the group who is whining loud when they get ganked back. And its also the group that gives the hardcore pvp croud the bad name because their are a lot of hardcore pvp players who understand why not all people love pvp and they keep their mouth shut.
null So i have one thing to say to all the people who seem to want thier mmo's to be so true to life. does that mean you want to have a game where you get one life and only one life, if you die you can never play again? because then that would be true to life and there for right up your alleys. i mean there is truelly no risks in an mmo if you die, you respawn. there are no real consequences to dying at all except time and well people tend to have that one in some form or another.
but if you could only play a game till you died and could never play again, then there would be true consequences to it. but then again i doubt it would be fun, and it really boils down then to what you think is fun, and not what is true to life or meaningful.. and fun is subjective...
All you wolves out there, your most likely cowards in real life, who only do things you know you can win at, and never take real chances.
Speaking to WOW specifically (make the translation to your MMO if you don't play wow). I find it interesting how few "wolves" will engage in world pvp against another target when that target is percieved as equal or better (in gear and/or level). The "wolves" will amost always prey on the "sheep". Rarely do you see two wolves fighting. On a PVP server "sheep" being any character who no matter what would be no threat to a "wolf".
I have played PVP and PVE servers, I find the PVE server with optional areas where everyone has choosen to go and engage in PVP of similiar level players to always be more fun. PVP servers I've found to be rank with "gankers" and people of low self esteem whose only joy is knowing they have brought pain to someone elses day, even if it is just knowing they made some lower level loose 10 minutes of their day running back to their corpse to be killed again.
I think the biggest problem with this issue nowadays is that in many games on the market, you don't have the choice to be wolf, or carebear, or whatever. This is decided for you by the developers - if the game doesnt support your preferred playstyle, don't play it. I rather miss the old school, where PvP was an optional but by no means necessary part of the game - you could do it if you chose, and if you chose not to, it did not hamper your advancement in the game in any way. Now we have PvP in many games as a way to earn special skills or items the more time you spend ganking - this I view as unacceptable. If your aim is truly to kill other players, why are you playing an mmo? Why not go play an FPS? Is it because FPS games tend to start players out on 'equal' grounds - ala equal weapons, gear, etc. and you don't want that, you'd rather prey on weaker, lower level (or just plain uninterested in pvp) players? I think honestly, that must be the thrill, otherwise all the pvp kiddies would just go back to counterstrike and etc.
I honestly don't understand why pvp for advancement was put into the MMORPG. It goes against the very idea of the genre, being that of a role playing game, not a gankfest. PvP on an optional basis, for fun? Why not? This existed in many of the older games ( Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, old-school DaoC (before realm abilities), etc. ) - games in which you could PvP if you wanted to, but if you weren't interested, the rest of the game content was still available to you. In AC1, you had to go swear at an altar to go 'red' and then you could attack and be attacked by other players who had done the same. In AO, you had to 'flag', and could attack other flagged players. If you went into the enemies capital city with a damage shield, you could be flagged by guards attacking you - but everything else in the game was available to you without ever putting yourself in that position, if you chose not to. You could get personal aircraft to fly over 'supression zones' if you weren't interested. I remember when AC2 came out, the 'high lvl areas' were not pvp zones, but you had to cross over a PvP zone as the only way to get there ....was seriously a game of step through the portal and mash your run key cause the moment you loaded, everyone would be attacking you. Was rather silly. In DaoC, (pre realm ability) PvP zones were completely unrelated to the PvE zones, and a character could achieve maximum lvl and all the best gear without ever stepping into the PvP area. This kept PvP as optional, as it should be.
Am I saying that games based around PvP are bad? Not at all. But a game designed with PvP in mind, and advertised as such, typically wont draw those players who aren't interested. I remember thinking RF online looked beautiful back when I saw all the hype, but it was clearly stated to be a PvP game - so, no thanks. In WoW you would be 'flagged' if you stepped into an enemy capital or attacked any enemy guards but really, 99.9% of the game content was doable without worrying about being attacked by the other faction (except pvp oriented battlegrounds, and one quest that had you kill an enemy guard thus exposing you to danger.). This was fine - and these games with larger subscription bases could make special ruleset servers FOR the pvp kiddies to play on.
The playerbase is a large part of this. I played Lineage2 to the lvl cap and only once or twice did I ever get PKd ( in a game where you can attack anyone, anywhere, anytime - except in town - with no provocation or etc.) But really, I tend to stay away from these kind of games - because PvP is NOT optional, its programmed into the game, ganking can and will happen, because people who have nothing better to do ( the evil wolves?) just want to ruin other peoples fun because it makes them feel better about themselves, or whatever.
Think about it. How many subscriptions will really be lost if PvP was made into an OPTIONAL part of the game. Optional meaning simply that. Sure, you can get a special title for pvp to show off how l33t you are, but players who don't care about that can still enjoy the questing/xping/raiding etc. The only people who would have a problem with that are those who prey on casual players or lower lvl players and honestly...? I like to say that is not the majority. Its a balance really, because how many casual players would choose to NOT play a game in which they are nothing but victims? By making PvP an optional part of gameplay, you aren't depriving anyone of anything. People who want to can, people who don't want to don't have to. Whats the problem? How many times will a casual player - maybe someone whose taken a long time to get where they are ( while still paying the same monthly subscription fee as everyone else ) accept being ganked by someone they had no chance against, losing their items and / or xp, before they move to another game? I know many that many people who think that once is enough.
A lot of people play games to get away from real life and all its ugliness - not to immerse ourselves in it.
Gaming? That's not gaming!
That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
Actually 4 types of players
4 types of players
PvE only - are into the game purely to play against the game with friends and RP and do what they want and dictate how they spend their time. As some one who has been killing these peeps for years i will tell you they really do not want to pvp at all. They have their fun by killing mobs and hanging out with their friends doing stuff. Some actually prefer to do things solo (lone wolf type). These players are the least likely to want to get ganked by a pker but in my experience are usually the ones most likely to. These are the true sheep in MMORPG land.
This group usually likes moderate amounts of grinding and lots of good content and places to explore and things to do.
For all those old school UO Pkers wishing for the glory days of the foxes in the henhouse keep wishing. These players will never again play a game that opens them up to that kind of awesomeness. They dont find being prey fun and will avoid open pvp...full loot games for the most part.
PvE mostly and PvP when they want to.
I would actually argue that this may be the largest group players in MMO today. This type of player wants complete control of their play experience. Even though i am pretty much a PKer at heart i also sometimes fall into this category at times. Life is busy and i just want to come home hop into the game and play a bit without having to look over my shoulder. Watch some tv while i play for a few hours. And then when i feel like it i go out and pvp a bit (BF2 largely serves this role for now, but does not offer the same amout of immersion i love in a good MMORPG). Unfortunately this gaming style never really appeals to me long term and I get bored, but many people dont and would be happy in any game that offered both options, and gave them the control of their gaming time.
This group would be against open pvp, and probably against full looting. They really want a safe gaming experience and have a little bit of action, but not to much; just enough to keep it intersting.
Carebear killers -
This is the group of PvP players that enjoy killing opponents that cannot fight back. They exist in every pvp game and have been around since UO. These are the gate campers in eve, the guys who load killed you in SWG, the rogue who stealths into low zones to gank to noobs (my personal favorite was the ones who used priests to mind control people getting off of gryphs to have the guards kill them). I hate to break the myth but most of these guys are not 12 (not all of them are even guys), they are not shut ins who live in their parents basement. They are normal people (most of the time, some social rejects exist in every category) who really enjoy the experience of killing lots of people. I would liken these peeps to people that still enjoy playing Dynasty Warriors after about an hour. I personally have little respect for the skills these players think they have, they usually run from fights they dont think they have a 100% chance of winning. They prefer when their prey complain and whine...posting about them on forums is the ultimate win for them. This type definetly prefers open pvp, full loot or what ever crzy death penalty they could inflict on their victim. The penalty to dying is part of what they find fun.
I spent a lot more time on this category because i would say next to the all pve crowd this is the other crowd that gets the most attention.
The greatest game ever for this type of player was UO. Early versions of WOW are a close second just for the sheer amount of whinage spewed on the forums about ganking on a pvp server. The first several months of WOW were actually tons of fun for most of this group. You will often hear them say that WOW got boring real fast...Why? Because blizzard made it more difficult to gank noobs in towns, most players leveled up to 60 pretty quick. Instanced raids left them with little targets. If WOW had no instances and these guys could single handly cause a 40 man raid to wipe they would have been in MMO heaven for about another month, till all the sheep rolled PvE serves.
The group of people that fall into this category isnt as big as most thinkn, but there victims whine so much they get more attention then they deserve.
This group also surprising likes steep level or skill grinds. They are usually able to climb to the top faster and that gives them an edge in combat from people who grind slower.
PvPer -
These are the guys who actually like to fight other PvP players, not slay random carebears running around. They are yet to find a suitable game for themselves. They usually want more out of pvp then just random killing for the sake of killing. You will usually hear them asking for goals and reasons to pvp like owning cities or castles and creating player run kingdoms to fight over. They would usually prefer full loot, open pvp. They prefer as short a learning curve to max skill as possible. This enables them to get into the game faster and start killing and participating in the combat sooner. IF you want to get into a game that has castle sieges and town banes and such you dont want to spend months getting ready to fight (this is actually one of the drawbacks to eve in my opinion eventhough i play it).
This is the one group that has truely never had a great game designed for its playstyle. It may because the community is so small and nobody wants to take the chance.
So there is my opinion. on it all.
I think that the carebear crowd is perfectly happy playing pve and if they werent they would just find another game. More PvE games then any other genre honestly.
The pve/pvp group is aslo pretty happy. Developers have noticed this tendancy and are putting out more games with this type of function. Although a lot more game such as ryzom and eve where some content is pvp only may be a trend worth watching to see how it works out. This gives the player a good amount of control but still has a bit of an open pvp feel in some areas. I am fan of this aproach and I think it has some promise.
The carebear killer crowd is in the toughest position. The days of slaying sheep for hours on end may be dying down. There are just to many options for the carebears to avoid these players. for the most part they will never have it as good as they had in the past.
The pvper
A bit of hope on the horizon but we will see if any of it delivers. I believe a game that offers a great dynamic pvp model with goals of conquest and empire/kingdom building may have a larger appeal then people think. The carebear killers will probably also come to this game and will lost likey be stuck ganking noobs coming out of cities or in prime grinding spots. but they wont get the general satisfaction they get from killing carebears because a pvp player base will just suck it up and move on...
Cant we all just play different games...it really is just the best solution. Old School UO will never happen again, the sheep have moved on it is time the wolves did as well.
Originally posted by Vertex1980
Umm.... yes it should? I don't enjoy hearing about someone sowing random violence on 24 people in real life, why would I want to pay $15 a month to hear about it in a game I'm playing for fun?
This assumes you have a meaningful result from "killing" someone, such as permadeath or other serious ramifications for such actions. Using the language of the original poster, if a Wolf ganks some Carebears, is hunted down and neutralized by the Grizzlies, then comes back and does it repeatedly, then the death system is broken. For there to be good and evil there MUST be meaningful results from doing good and doing evil. If doing evil just gets you a trip back to your bindstone/graveyard/whatever and you can come and do evil again, then the entire system on which the good and evil actions are predicated is worthless.
I basically agree with neschria, too. As I just mentioned in another PVP complaint thread, plenty of people enjoy stuff other than PVP.
EDIT: woops, didn't read the rest of this thread before posting. I think aote2000's post is insightful and on-target as well.
Wolves compete for dominance, form packs, and hunt sheep.
Sheep survive by reproducing faster than they can be eaten, and by being domesticated by stronger predators such as humans, who let them live and reproduce and receive protection from wolves, in exchange for their wool.
Wolves die. Wolves get shot by ranchers. Wolves starve. Wolves freeze. They get caught in traps. The life of a wolf is hard, thats why they are viscious, they can't afford to make mistakes, they can't afford not to eat, they are literally 2 meals away from starvation.
Miners join strong corporations that can protect them, in exchange they provide their services, its a tribal relationship based on mutual need like the sheep and the farmer.
Most people are antisocial c*nts.
They dont want to share anything, they dont want to be part of anything, they want to hunt solo and grind mobs for flaming +5 sword of ownage.
Thats what the average mmo player wants, thats why WoW is a big hit.
Eve isn't for the average mmo player.
The carebears main job is to provide support services, such as mining, manufacturing and driving freighters, they provide support services for their faction. They are vulnerable to attack, but their value to their team facilitates that they be protected from attackers.
In this manner, carebears and hatebears can co-exist for mutual benefit.
As far as "pve" games where everybody is a "soldier" and the only opposition is NPC's, thats for little kids up to age 12.
Walking around with heavy armor, flaming sword, and a warhorse, and having the computer prevent you from being attacked is just plain WRONG.
If you pretend to be any kind of badass, you should be open to attack by other players.
If you claim yourself as a civilian, then I am okay with the NPC cops protecting you from attack.
But claiming yourself as a combatant and still expecting protection by the game mechanics? No, this is wrong.
I mean you call alot of people children (MMORPG need Credit/Debit cards, if they were designed for 12 and up they wouldn't). Also are you inferring all Single Player games are made for age 12 and up?
Then say "badass" in relation to activities in a freakin game...
Sad Sad Sadson of the Clan McSad from Sadland.
Its a VIDEO GAME, no matter what you do you are not a "badass", "hard", "cool", "l33t", etc.
As for your PvPers are "Soldiers", please please be joking.
Soldiers fight when, where and who their told by their Civilian Goverments. The only PvP system where the PvPers can claim to be soldiers is Faction vs Faction PvP, Not Open PvP
Soldiers do not run around attacking anyone they see because they feel like it. Thats whay psychos do.
Single player games are more like movies. You pop in the CD, you play it, you finish it, done.
If you cast yourself as a flaming sword wielding, armored brute on horseback, you should have to back up that role.
Its like someone casting himself as Darth Vader and running around
picking daises, with all the Jedis following him around spamming him
with /duel
Its unrealistic and totally against the spirit of a Role Playing game.
If you declare yourself a combatant, with the perks thereof (cool
armor, flaming sword, warhorse) then other people need to be able to
knock you off that armored horse (if they are able.)
Otherwise those perks are window dressing, and you are basically playing with dolls.
Or maybe like someone casting themselves as a tough, badass rebel without a cause, and spending their time playing video games and bragging about it on internet message boards?
(Just so you all know, I'm reffering to this: http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/93777)
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
But that is how I want to play. I am the guy who plays Madden on thje easiest setting and wins 152-0. Yes it is unreal, but it is fun for me.
For me it is about Fun and PVP is not fun for me. I am happy it is for you.