Skill based games. You don't have to grind for months to be able to compete.
In WOW, winning in PVP is based on - your level, your equipment. How do you get those? GRIND.
You are wrong, and have obviously too blind to see through your blizzard fanboism or have never played anything else, bar WOW or another EQ clone.
Oh, and PS - i levelled up to level 160 in AC1 without grinding for one second. So again, you are wrong.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you both here. Grinding is doing an action repetatively. You can play WoW without having to grind at all because the quests will take you through the game as long as you build up some rest experience but any game can have a grind if you try hard enough (or not enough in many cases), but everyone has a different definition of fun.
There will never be a game without a grind, because once you go through the content and want to do it again or skip parts of it it becomes a grind.
Edit: Every game may havea grind, but you can get around it by actually enjoying the content instead of rushing to the top level
Originally posted by roadwarriors And to the person who said perfection is a pov. Well th at is some F* up logic. That's like hitlotorian subjectivism. You can't argue that a mangled body is perfection even though it might be sadisitc perfection. We have discriptive language for a reason and that is to differentiate between frames of reference and universality. In terms of universal perfection, wow is the closest out of any mmorpg. Sadistic perfection is a POV too. How about women. Some men like skinny women. Some men like fat women. Perfection is a POV. Most 15 year old kids don't even have access to computers and therefore do not know how to install WOW. Obviously you come from a third world country. Nearly every household in America has a computer and the kids do know how to use them. Anyone over 30 has limited scope with computers and anyone under 20 does as well too. It's just facts man. Made up facts. I'm over 30, I work in the video game industry, and I am well versed in computers. My generation grew up with them. My generation is making them. My generation is programming them.
edit: Just thought I'd also mention. If WoW is perfection, then weep all ye gamers. For there is nothing more to make, nothing more to play.
which MUD's? So raising skills in UO wasnt a grind? Its the same exact thing as leveling in other games except the rewards are done differently. Dont say raising Taming wasnt one of the most time consuming acts in a game unless you exploited your skills up. AC1 had leveling, wtf are you talking about? Leveling took a longass time in AC. Those games you just listed have grinds JUST LIKE current mmorpg's, how can you say they dont? thats true that equipment means alot in WoW, much less any other mmorpg but it does take timing and twitch to be good. counterspelling an opponents 1.5 sec cast takes skill. Moving and staying behind your opponent whos trying to front you while your backstabbing him takes straffe skill. Teamwork of healing, cc'ing, etc. takes skill. There are many things in WoW that take skill but i will give you that equipment is a crutch for alot of people. Altho i'd say that applies to EVERY mmorpg, whether its some decked out spaceship blowing up noobs or having a character with a full T3 set. You obvioiusly have alot of hate for no reason and should see a shrink. You might find alot of your issues with games are caused by yourself and then your very hypocriticial when it comes to putting one game on a pedestal while knocking another. We can go into depth on any of the games you just listed as not having grinds and i'll prove youre hypocritical ass wrong again.
Let me help you out a little, as you seemed to have misunderstood his post.
To be successful in WOW's PVP you have to GRIND levels, then GRIND equipment (raids, PVE) to be able to compete. In UO and AC as well as EVE, your level and equipment doesn't dictate the winner of the battle - which in the end means that you don't need to grind as much to be competitive in PVP - if that's your goal.
And PVP in WOW is a joke. If you think it takes skill, then good for you!
...then an expansion gets released or the goal posts are moved and the whole process repeats itself.
The whole experience is safe, linear and repetitive. Even on the dedicated PVP servers the PVP is restrictive, repetitive and meaningless and just another form of grind.
With that said though, for people who have never played a MMORPG before or for casual player then they will likely lovely WOW.
But to me, a long time MMORPG player...WOW is simply a MMORPG on training wheels.
You know, I had massive problems with SWG. But you don't find me on forums bashing SWG. I moved on. Why can't WoW bashers do the same?
Originally posted by rohbshop which MUD's? So raising skills in UO wasnt a grind? Its the same exact thing as leveling in other games except the rewards are done differently. Dont say raising Taming wasnt one of the most time consuming acts in a game unless you exploited your skills up. AC1 had leveling, wtf are you talking about? Leveling took a longass time in AC. Those games you just listed have grinds JUST LIKE current mmorpg's, how can you say they dont? thats true that equipment means alot in WoW, much less any other mmorpg but it does take timing and twitch to be good. counterspelling an opponents 1.5 sec cast takes skill. Moving and staying behind your opponent whos trying to front you while your backstabbing him takes straffe skill. Teamwork of healing, cc'ing, etc. takes skill. There are many things in WoW that take skill but i will give you that equipment is a crutch for alot of people. Altho i'd say that applies to EVERY mmorpg, whether its some decked out spaceship blowing up noobs or having a character with a full T3 set. You obvioiusly have alot of hate for no reason and should see a shrink. You might find alot of your issues with games are caused by yourself and then your very hypocriticial when it comes to putting one game on a pedestal while knocking another. We can go into depth on any of the games you just listed as not having grinds and i'll prove youre hypocritical ass wrong again.
I enjoyed UO's 'grind' as there was no set path and every say wasn't different. It was some linear course I had to take through the world, nor was there 'kill 10 chickens' crap around every corner. There were also multiple professions and a lot of freedom. Get bored with PVE - fine, do something else. How many professions are there in WOW - 2? PVE and crafting...oh fun!
PVP in WOW is primarily item based.
PVP in WOW is primarily level based.
Got it? Good. Now im sure you would still kick arse without your uber gear, but hey, that's just because you are a hero.
And what game did i put on a pedestal, considering i mentioned 3 games? And good job ignoring the rest of my post.
Now please, head back to WOW and grind some more - the goalposts have moved, grind away!
You know, I had massive problems with SWG. But you don't find me on forums bashing SWG. I moved on. Why can't WoW bashers do the same?
Because alot of the time they either hate it so much that they can't think about anything else to post about or it was their only experience with a pay MMO and they hold a grudge because they burnt out.
I voted for SWG pre-cu in the poll because it was the most fun. It was probably the least polished game and the quests were terrible, but the award things for travelling around the planets was pretty cool.
What made it the best? The fact that players created their own towns and in effect made their own content. I want nothing more out of an MMO than SWG pre-cu but with a good dev team working on patches and content updates
which MUD's? So raising skills in UO wasnt a grind? Its the same exact thing as leveling in other games except the rewards are done differently. Dont say raising Taming wasnt one of the most time consuming acts in a game unless you exploited your skills up. AC1 had leveling, wtf are you talking about? Leveling took a longass time in AC. Those games you just listed have grinds JUST LIKE current mmorpg's, how can you say they dont? thats true that equipment means alot in WoW, much less any other mmorpg but it does take timing and twitch to be good. counterspelling an opponents 1.5 sec cast takes skill. Moving and staying behind your opponent whos trying to front you while your backstabbing him takes straffe skill. Teamwork of healing, cc'ing, etc. takes skill. There are many things in WoW that take skill but i will give you that equipment is a crutch for alot of people. Altho i'd say that applies to EVERY mmorpg, whether its some decked out spaceship blowing up noobs or having a character with a full T3 set. You obvioiusly have alot of hate for no reason and should see a shrink. You might find alot of your issues with games are caused by yourself and then your very hypocriticial when it comes to putting one game on a pedestal while knocking another. We can go into depth on any of the games you just listed as not having grinds and i'll prove youre hypocritical ass wrong again.
Let me help you out a little, as you seemed to have misunderstood his post.
To be successful in WOW's PVP you have to GRIND levels, then GRIND equipment (raids, PVE) to be able to compete. In UO and AC as well as EVE, your level and equipment doesn't dictate the winner of the battle - which in the end means that you don't need to grind as much to be competitive in PVP - if that's your goal.
And PVP in WOW is a joke. If you think it takes skill, then good for you!
Are you joking? Equipment meant alot in AC. Spaceship means alot in Eve. Dont even act like a noob at the highest level or who just got into a corp and is PvP'ing is going to kill some vet 1 vs 1, thats a straight up lie. UO was more based on how many tradeskill characters you had to make you xx amount of potions and knick knacks to carry around with you everwhere you went. Last time i played UO people were using blessing deeds to carry around their Vanquish weapons.
Like i said i've played all these games and WoW takes just as much skill as any of them to be good. Equipment has always been a factor in every one of them and its laughable how you act like they didnt/dont apply in the ones you listed when anyone thats played them can tell you they do.
the reasons why people are so upset with WoW is the possibility that their success might taint the future of all MMORPG developers. This gaming style might last a few more years, but people will begin to realize that there is more to MMORPG that has yet to be unleashed, and yes i do agree that WoW has done somethings amazingly well, its a smooth intro into the game, alot of fun, but after around 20 it begins to really become a grind, SWG felt the same way sometimes, and i hear you about how it had alot of faults, but at the same time they were revolutionizing the MMORPG universe, except they blew it and so now developers steer clear of SWG, which is a pity, and they will probably flock towards sucessful games such as WoW, which isn't as revolutionary as many other games.
AAAHHH!!!, will people please stop calling MMORPG's skill, there is no skill at all, try playing a real skill based game like AOE 3, where you actually have to think every second. MMORPG's are usually just coming up with a good combo and combining it with a bunch of other people with other combo's and spaming attacks when needed, that takes no skill, unless you count hitting a button as skill. Although the button is always soo much fun to hit!
edit: make sure you go post about your favorite grind, woot woot!
You know, I see these threads all the time. And much like the OP I'm confused as to why. Sure...I admit WoW isn't the best MMO to ever grace the pages of MMORPG.com, but it's not the garbage it's made out to be either. Yeah, it's easy. Yeah, it can be a grind-fest. What MMO isn't from time to time?
And before you say it, I'm not just another MMO n00b out to defend his favorite game. I've been around long enough to see several of the MMOs I've played get shut down, or simply rot due to lack of players. I've played DAoC, AC 1&2, SWG (pre-suck), both EQs, and too many others to count. WoW isn't the worst of em, I assure you. I've seen games with less content, worse quests, and a horrible communities.
I know the wrods of one man aren't going to change a hell of a lot, but at least I'll have done my part.
WoW is just another MMO, no different from any other. It has it's good and bad points. Give the complaining a rest already.
hating a game and arguing with people who love the game is probably the most fun ever. I personally like WoW, i just worry about the implications this will have on future games. And so i express my opinions rather overtly in hopes that someone else will respond in a simliar fashion
edit: although sometimes people don't respond to me, either what i say is ignored because it completely debunks what the attacker is saying, i.e. i'm a master debater hehe, or my topics don't do someting special that allows people to respond? idk....
the reasons why people are so upset with WoW is the possibility that their success might taint the future of all MMORPG developers. This gaming style might last a few more years, but people will begin to realize that there is more to MMORPG that has yet to be unleashed, and yes i do agree that WoW has done somethings amazingly well, its a smooth intro into the game, alot of fun, but after around 20 it begins to really become a grind, SWG felt the same way sometimes, and i hear you about how it had alot of faults, but at the same time they were revolutionizing the MMORPG universe, except they blew it and so now developers steer clear of SWG, which is a pity, and they will probably flock towards sucessful games such as WoW, which isn't as revolutionary as many other games.
the problem is mmorpg's up until WoW came out with LOTS and LOTS of bugs. Almost EVERY one of them were released with no content while they added content periodically after release. Basically like charging players to play in beta. I dont think you can name an mmorpg before WoW that didnt do this. Mmorpg'ers have had to live with this because it was the industry norm, not like there were many alternatives.
then here comes WoW...content on release. No NDA. Very playable. It was postponed and postponed because Blizzard doesnt want to play under the same industry standard that every other mmorpg company tried to play their customers. Its a big reason why blizzard is dominating the mmorpg market, because they have a working product with content straight out the gate. I was there for the first days of UO, AC, DAOC, AO, etc. and there isnt one of them that had conent on release like WoW did.
I think people make too much about revolutionary. alot of mmorpg's have come out trying to be just that and have failed miserably. Remember Horizons that was supposed to allow you to change the world and have a part in making it happen? It was probbably the worst mmorpg i've ever purchased which is saying alot considering how crappy alot of these mmorpg's were released, and what many of us gamers had to live with. I remember it all and its funny how quickly people forget if you've been gaming mmorpg's since UO of how bad the industry standards were. They still are pretty bad. I understand making an mmorpg isnt easy, its why blizzard is always late on their release dates, but they are one of the very few companies and i think the only one willing to forego the unfinished, premature released games for the sake of their rep. If anything i blame all those other companies for screwing over mmorpg'ers for a long time now where we had to live with all the premature releases. Its not Blizzard thats holding the industry back, its the industry not stepping up and making better, less buggy not prematurely released mmorpg's that end up being good games.
Seriously if you've been mmorpg'ing since early UO you know how bad the industry has been with screwing us over with hype and huge disappointments in releases. The only one i forgive is UO because it was the first, after MUD's. The rest get what they deserve.
but also think about what WoW is sacrificing to make a non-buggy game, they sacrificed player content, which is what those other games struggle with. Player crafted items always seem to create an unknown in some games and this really screws with dev's who either try to add more content to hide bugs, or try to fix the bugs and completely screw the game. WoW created a game where they had the power, WoW can be looked at like a single player game with players who run around, it'd be pretty hard to screw it up.
AAAHHH!!!, will people please stop calling MMORPG's skill, there is no skill at all, try playing a real skill based game like AOE 3, where you actually have to think every second. MMORPG's are usually just coming up with a good combo and combining it with a bunch of other people with other combo's and spaming attacks when needed, that takes no skill, unless you count hitting a button as skill. Although the button is always soo much fun to hit!
edit: make sure you go post about your favorite grind, woot woot!
you can say the same thing about RTS's. Everybody who PvP's in RTS uses their same basic rush strats to win over and over again. Whatever RTS it is the people who play online tend to use their same strats every match which usually involves a rush.
WoW PvP is skilless. The Rock, Paper, Scissors example makes sure of this. If you (class X) attack (Class Y) you'll win (if class Y == your class killer). That said, if (class Y) has T3 gear and you have T1 or less, your loose again. Its the FORCED GRIND I think most are talking about. I HAVE to PvE so that I can just compete in PvP. The fact that my guild rolled Horde and DID NOT GET PALLADINS or D0rf Preists with Fear ward and therefore nerfing our own PvE potential makes it all the worse.
WoW is, as an above poster said, all about the grind. And thats true. World PvP is more or less dead. So what do they do, put in cross server battlegroups. Now there is allways enough people to make the next BG (AkA Honor Grind zone) spawn. You have to grind items to grind PvP honor, grind grind grind grind. meh.
As for the whole, skill in PvP argument. Wow requires a lot of button mashing, they have not make the classes simple to play at all. From a technical standpoint its actually a fairly complicated game toplay. That said, IMO, complex character control is not skill. The use of tactics to win the 1 v 1 battles that exist are more akin to skill than deciding what button to mash. An example. In a more 'pure' PvP game, casters (mage for this example) are fodder. If a melee class gets near the caster he dies. (in WoW the casters have 'get out of jail free cards to negate this (PoM Polly, Frost Nova, Blink, in a more skillfull game they would require people to guard them so they can rain down holy terror on the enemy). The skill here is multifold. As a group, you have to fight the 1 v 1's, take out enemy healers/casters while protecting yours. Collsion detection makes this even more skill based. It requires group tactics in order to win. That said I feel that my group of 5 (or 6 or 8 depending on game) is better than most. In WoW, its almost purely zerg on zerg, honor grinding, random PuG people etc. So, go play WSG you'd say!. We actually did that. And after going I would honestly say 500-50, it A got old and B lost its allure. AB was fun as I could organize 15 of us to Play together, and we also did well here, prolly 300 or 400 to mebbe 40 or 50 losses. But that got old too. AV.... we do Preform AV's but the map just makes it too hard, and waiting around for a queue when I can get all 40 of my people in sucks. I yearn (as does most of my guild) for Emain Macha again.
Im not knocking WoW PvP, hey if you did the Naxx grind to get 9/9 Naxx gear, I guess, you deserve something for it. What i've found after 20 years of gaming (ya im old) is that PvP'ers make the absolute WORST PvE'ers.
ok rohbshop....you obviously don't know what your talking about. only idiot noobs rush, and some of the experts will do a rush, but it is very easy to counter a rush, its called micro, economy, defense. I odn't know what shell your living under, but when you have to balance military and economy and micro at the same time<--- thats skill, theres a reason why RTS games have gone proffessional in some countries such as Korea. i mean have you seen iamgrunt play? its crazy, the guy has uber talent, both natural and trained
but also think about what WoW is sacrificing to make a non-buggy game, they sacrificed player content, which is what those other games struggle with. Player crafted items always seem to create an unknown in some games and this really screws with dev's who either try to add more content to hide bugs, or try to fix the bugs and completely screw the game. WoW created a game where they had the power, WoW can be looked at like a single player game with players who run around, it'd be pretty hard to screw it up.
Im fortunate that one of my guildies actually lives next door to a member or the Blizzard Dev team. Not only do we all get heads up on upcoming changes, but beta access etc. That said, when I asked him, (as a 300 weaponsmith) why crafting in WoW sucks, his reply was priceless, he said,"we decided to not make player made items compete with raid items as we had to make people raid to keep them subscribing."
When WoW launched recall, there was nothing but Molten Core. When everyone rushed to the end, there was nothing to to except roll Tarren Mill over and over, no honor nothing to show for your efforts. The Developers at Blizzard did not expect people to endgame so quickly in the numbers that they did and scampered to add content and things to do. Had the player crafted items been epic back then they would have lot a lot of people to boredom. That was the thinking anyways.
but also think about what WoW is sacrificing to make a non-buggy game, they sacrificed player content, which is what those other games struggle with. Player crafted items always seem to create an unknown in some games and this really screws with dev's who either try to add more content to hide bugs, or try to fix the bugs and completely screw the game. WoW created a game where they had the power, WoW can be looked at like a single player game with players who run around, it'd be pretty hard to screw it up.
this is what i dont get. I dont know how long you played WoW for but in my eyes it has just as much content if not more than the EQ's, AC's, AO's, etc. Its not instance based nearly as much as EQ and it has more diversity according to level than all of them. For each level period(say every 5 levels) there are at least 3-4+ completely different areas applicable to that person as a change of scenery. Most other mmorpg's you get a max of 2. Its got a full world to explore that isnt cutoff by having to finish a quest/leveling to gain access.
WoW is very misportrayed on this forum because its not nearly as 'simple' as many of you lead others to believe. Like i keep saying i've played YOURE mmorpg's and none of them have that much more depth than WoW and not nearly as much as many of you portray. The only thing i'll say is a fact is most other games have much longer treadmills to rewards than WoW, and i think thats what many of you prefer, then presume to call WoW 'simple'.
Its not instance based nearly as much as EQ and it has more diversity according to level than all of them. For each level period(say every 5 levels) there are at least 3-4+ completely different areas applicable to that person as a change of scenery. Most other mmorpg's you get a max of 2. Its got a full world to explore that isnt cutoff by having to finish a quest/leveling to gain access. WoW is very misportrayed on this forum because its not nearly as 'simple' as many of you lead others to believe. Like i keep saying i've played YOURE mmorpg's and none of them have that much more depth than WoW and not nearly as much as many of you portray. The only thing i'll say is a fact is most other games have much longer treadmills to rewards than WoW, and i think thats what many of you prefer, then presume to call WoW 'simple'.
Disagree completely. Firstly, WOW has zones. To me - zoning really sucks especially in the supposedly 'next generation' of MMORPGs.
Secondly, WOWs world isn't cutoff by having to finish a level or quest? You are kidding me right. WOW has a linear or set path that you take all the way to level 60. Now of course you don't have to follow this path if you don't want...but hell, as quests are often restricted by level so your pretty much screwed if you wish to skip ahead a little.
AC1 - you can walk anywhere, anytime, talking to anyone at any level. Think you can handle the quest to kill a level 250 lugian at level 5, give it a shot! See that mountain over there on the horizon - walk there! Newby that wants to explore? Just head off in any direction and you will likely find plenty of changes in scenery, remote dungeons, secluded beaches, huge mountains - did i mention there was no zones? Did i mention you didn't feel like you were often surounded by a mountain range that was simply put there to fence you in? Bahh...
Again, you are simply showing your fanboism for WOW. Give it a rest. You are only fooling yourself.
" Its got a full world to explore that isnt cutoff by having to finish a quest/leveling to gain access."
this is a lie, theres no point in exploring WoW, lets look at SWG: 7 fully explorable worlds, where you were rewarded for exploring far out places.
"I dont know how long you played WoW for but in my eyes it has just as much content if not more than the EQ's, AC's, AO's, etc"
i've never played any of the games you listed, but i do realize you forgot to add the one game that proves why this game sucks...SWG...do i see player crafted cities in WoW, or player items?, or player mounts?, or player houses?, or player doctors who BUILD MEDICINE not just zap it out of their hands. SWG actually had soem realism to it, its like a car, while WoW is like the wheel, it just rolls, SWG roars like wookies do.
i'm talking about SWG Pre-CU, or as some call it: Pre-suck
ok, i know some people hate SWG, but this game introduced me to a gaming style that was amazing and WAY ahead of its time. Because your stats, i.e. health, never changed and there were no levels. They called this masterful power of video game craft PRE-CU SWG. The only reason to grind was to get bonus modifiers and skills, but what made the game great was the fact that a noob could theoretically take on a higher skilled person if they knew what they were doing. This is what made SWG more realistic, i mean in real life when you work do you gain more health? no...you gain skills and experience. This is why games such as WoW and EQ create a grind that is unbearable for me, an enlightened individual.
O and please do not claim that those FeDex style quests provide a fun and easy way to lvl, because thats bullcrap, WoW's missions are pointless and stupid, you get nothing usually but xp, and maybe sometimes a very very small amount of money or a crappy item. In SWG there were mission terminals that could be used to grab missions that would give you a very decent amount of money, in a matter of days you could gather enough money from missions to buy a house. Which is also what WoW is lacking...crafting
WoWs quests were a distraction from the casual monster grind. Ud still get decent EXP and decent items, as compared to grinding same mob over and over. Im not sure where u got the thought that quest rewards were useless, half of my level 55 character were quest rewards. SWG missions on the other hand were randomly generated and were so out of place they felt like silicon breasts - they look nice from far, but when u touch them, you can feel their "unnatural" rubbery feel.
Im not sure how it was possible for newly created character to compete with advanced one, the new char can use a very simple gun, the other guy would be able to use a blaster or another much more powerfull weapon, able to kill u in a few shots. Granted, I never tried to kill a much higher character then I, but id like to hear how that is possible.
Its simple, WoW is level based, while SWG was skill based. Level based grind vs skill based grind. The same old grind in my book.
Originally posted by rohbshop the funny thing is you cant name an mmorpg without a grind. Its also a matter of perspective. WoW has less true 'grind' than 99% of them on the market which take twice as much time to level or get anywhere in trade skills while your redundantly killing the same things over and over again. PvP for many people isnt a grind, its for fun. Raiding can be for fun also. Grind vs Fun comes down to how much of a lootwhore you are because you will never have fun in the moment because your always working towards that next piece of loot. Youre blaming games when its you thats the problem .
MUD's. UO. AC1.
Skill based games. You don't have to grind for months to be able to compete.
In WOW, winning in PVP is based on - your level, your equipment. How do you get those? GRIND.
You are wrong, and have obviously too blind to see through your blizzard fanboism or have never played anything else, bar WOW or another EQ clone.
Oh, and PS - i levelled up to level 160 in AC1 without grinding for one second. So again, you are wrong. I havent played MUDs nor AC1, but in UO youd have to grind too... u grind that nasty spell resistance (PAIN!), ud grind that mining skill to get the ore.. then grind your crafting skill to make armor... skill grind.
The only game that ever came close to being NON-grinding (there is TINY grind till u reach top level) is Planetside. In that game, experience you gain will advance your battle rank (level), and with higher battle rank, you get a wider choice of weapons to pick. There is an advantage of being high rank char - you can fit into more tactical situations, but level 1 char, compared to level 25, are equal in strength. None of the MMORPGs that ive played are anything like that, they all spin around either level grind, skill grind, item grind, or any possible combination of those 3.
Comments
There will never be a game without a grind, because once you go through the content and want to do it again or skip parts of it it becomes a grind.
Edit: Every game may havea grind, but you can get around it by actually enjoying the content instead of rushing to the top level
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/Tabatron/Fading-SWGEMU.gif
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/Tabatron/Fading-SWGEMU.gif
To be successful in WOW's PVP you have to GRIND levels, then GRIND equipment (raids, PVE) to be able to compete. In UO and AC as well as EVE, your level and equipment doesn't dictate the winner of the battle - which in the end means that you don't need to grind as much to be competitive in PVP - if that's your goal.
And PVP in WOW is a joke. If you think it takes skill, then good for you!
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
PVP in WOW is primarily item based.
PVP in WOW is primarily level based.
Got it? Good. Now im sure you would still kick arse without your uber gear, but hey, that's just because you are a hero.
And what game did i put on a pedestal, considering i mentioned 3 games? And good job ignoring the rest of my post.
Now please, head back to WOW and grind some more - the goalposts have moved, grind away!
/Dave, out.
Because alot of the time they either hate it so much that they can't think about anything else to post about or it was their only experience with a pay MMO and they hold a grudge because they burnt out.
I voted for SWG pre-cu in the poll because it was the most fun. It was probably the least polished game and the quests were terrible, but the award things for travelling around the planets was pretty cool.
What made it the best? The fact that players created their own towns and in effect made their own content. I want nothing more out of an MMO than SWG pre-cu but with a good dev team working on patches and content updates
Let me help you out a little, as you seemed to have misunderstood his post.To be successful in WOW's PVP you have to GRIND levels, then GRIND equipment (raids, PVE) to be able to compete. In UO and AC as well as EVE, your level and equipment doesn't dictate the winner of the battle - which in the end means that you don't need to grind as much to be competitive in PVP - if that's your goal.
And PVP in WOW is a joke. If you think it takes skill, then good for you!
Are you joking? Equipment meant alot in AC. Spaceship means alot in Eve. Dont even act like a noob at the highest level or who just got into a corp and is PvP'ing is going to kill some vet 1 vs 1, thats a straight up lie. UO was more based on how many tradeskill characters you had to make you xx amount of potions and knick knacks to carry around with you everwhere you went. Last time i played UO people were using blessing deeds to carry around their Vanquish weapons.
Like i said i've played all these games and WoW takes just as much skill as any of them to be good. Equipment has always been a factor in every one of them and its laughable how you act like they didnt/dont apply in the ones you listed when anyone thats played them can tell you they do.
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You can cry about "WoW Bashing" all you want, but look at the number of WoW players who habitually go troll and bash in other games' forums.
I hope you're not trying to tell us to stop doing something your own community does.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Quote of the year!!!!
Hahaha
...ok, i've pulled myself together now.
One word for buddy - delusional.
edit: make sure you go post about your favorite grind, woot woot!
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And before you say it, I'm not just another MMO n00b out to defend his favorite game. I've been around long enough to see several of the MMOs I've played get shut down, or simply rot due to lack of players. I've played DAoC, AC 1&2, SWG (pre-suck), both EQs, and too many others to count. WoW isn't the worst of em, I assure you. I've seen games with less content, worse quests, and a horrible communities.
I know the wrods of one man aren't going to change a hell of a lot, but at least I'll have done my part.
WoW is just another MMO, no different from any other. It has it's good and bad points. Give the complaining a rest already.
edit: although sometimes people don't respond to me, either what i say is ignored because it completely debunks what the attacker is saying, i.e. i'm a master debater hehe, or my topics don't do someting special that allows people to respond? idk....
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the problem is mmorpg's up until WoW came out with LOTS and LOTS of bugs. Almost EVERY one of them were released with no content while they added content periodically after release. Basically like charging players to play in beta. I dont think you can name an mmorpg before WoW that didnt do this. Mmorpg'ers have had to live with this because it was the industry norm, not like there were many alternatives.
then here comes WoW...content on release. No NDA. Very playable. It was postponed and postponed because Blizzard doesnt want to play under the same industry standard that every other mmorpg company tried to play their customers. Its a big reason why blizzard is dominating the mmorpg market, because they have a working product with content straight out the gate. I was there for the first days of UO, AC, DAOC, AO, etc. and there isnt one of them that had conent on release like WoW did.
I think people make too much about revolutionary. alot of mmorpg's have come out trying to be just that and have failed miserably. Remember Horizons that was supposed to allow you to change the world and have a part in making it happen? It was probbably the worst mmorpg i've ever purchased which is saying alot considering how crappy alot of these mmorpg's were released, and what many of us gamers had to live with. I remember it all and its funny how quickly people forget if you've been gaming mmorpg's since UO of how bad the industry standards were. They still are pretty bad. I understand making an mmorpg isnt easy, its why blizzard is always late on their release dates, but they are one of the very few companies and i think the only one willing to forego the unfinished, premature released games for the sake of their rep. If anything i blame all those other companies for screwing over mmorpg'ers for a long time now where we had to live with all the premature releases. Its not Blizzard thats holding the industry back, its the industry not stepping up and making better, less buggy not prematurely released mmorpg's that end up being good games.
Seriously if you've been mmorpg'ing since early UO you know how bad the industry has been with screwing us over with hype and huge disappointments in releases. The only one i forgive is UO because it was the first, after MUD's. The rest get what they deserve.
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WoW PvP is skilless. The Rock, Paper, Scissors example makes sure of this. If you (class X) attack (Class Y) you'll win (if class Y == your class killer). That said, if (class Y) has T3 gear and you have T1 or less, your loose again. Its the FORCED GRIND I think most are talking about. I HAVE to PvE so that I can just compete in PvP. The fact that my guild rolled Horde and DID NOT GET PALLADINS or D0rf Preists with Fear ward and therefore nerfing our own PvE potential makes it all the worse.
WoW is, as an above poster said, all about the grind. And thats true. World PvP is more or less dead. So what do they do, put in cross server battlegroups. Now there is allways enough people to make the next BG (AkA Honor Grind zone) spawn. You have to grind items to grind PvP honor, grind grind grind grind. meh.
As for the whole, skill in PvP argument. Wow requires a lot of button mashing, they have not make the classes simple to play at all. From a technical standpoint its actually a fairly complicated game toplay. That said, IMO, complex character control is not skill. The use of tactics to win the 1 v 1 battles that exist are more akin to skill than deciding what button to mash. An example. In a more 'pure' PvP game, casters (mage for this example) are fodder. If a melee class gets near the caster he dies. (in WoW the casters have 'get out of jail free cards to negate this (PoM Polly, Frost Nova, Blink, in a more skillfull game they would require people to guard them so they can rain down holy terror on the enemy). The skill here is multifold. As a group, you have to fight the 1 v 1's, take out enemy healers/casters while protecting yours. Collsion detection makes this even more skill based. It requires group tactics in order to win. That said I feel that my group of 5 (or 6 or 8 depending on game) is better than most. In WoW, its almost purely zerg on zerg, honor grinding, random PuG people etc. So, go play WSG you'd say!. We actually did that. And after going I would honestly say 500-50, it A got old and B lost its allure. AB was fun as I could organize 15 of us to Play together, and we also did well here, prolly 300 or 400 to mebbe 40 or 50 losses. But that got old too. AV.... we do Preform AV's but the map just makes it too hard, and waiting around for a queue when I can get all 40 of my people in sucks. I yearn (as does most of my guild) for Emain Macha again.
Im not knocking WoW PvP, hey if you did the Naxx grind to get 9/9 Naxx gear, I guess, you deserve something for it. What i've found after 20 years of gaming (ya im old) is that PvP'ers make the absolute WORST PvE'ers.
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Im fortunate that one of my guildies actually lives next door to a member or the Blizzard Dev team. Not only do we all get heads up on upcoming changes, but beta access etc. That said, when I asked him, (as a 300 weaponsmith) why crafting in WoW sucks, his reply was priceless, he said,"we decided to not make player made items compete with raid items as we had to make people raid to keep them subscribing."
When WoW launched recall, there was nothing but Molten Core. When everyone rushed to the end, there was nothing to to except roll Tarren Mill over and over, no honor nothing to show for your efforts. The Developers at Blizzard did not expect people to endgame so quickly in the numbers that they did and scampered to add content and things to do. Had the player crafted items been epic back then they would have lot a lot of people to boredom. That was the thinking anyways.
this is what i dont get. I dont know how long you played WoW for but in my eyes it has just as much content if not more than the EQ's, AC's, AO's, etc. Its not instance based nearly as much as EQ and it has more diversity according to level than all of them. For each level period(say every 5 levels) there are at least 3-4+ completely different areas applicable to that person as a change of scenery. Most other mmorpg's you get a max of 2. Its got a full world to explore that isnt cutoff by having to finish a quest/leveling to gain access.
WoW is very misportrayed on this forum because its not nearly as 'simple' as many of you lead others to believe. Like i keep saying i've played YOURE mmorpg's and none of them have that much more depth than WoW and not nearly as much as many of you portray. The only thing i'll say is a fact is most other games have much longer treadmills to rewards than WoW, and i think thats what many of you prefer, then presume to call WoW 'simple'.
Secondly, WOWs world isn't cutoff by having to finish a level or quest? You are kidding me right. WOW has a linear or set path that you take all the way to level 60. Now of course you don't have to follow this path if you don't want...but hell, as quests are often restricted by level so your pretty much screwed if you wish to skip ahead a little.
AC1 - you can walk anywhere, anytime, talking to anyone at any level. Think you can handle the quest to kill a level 250 lugian at level 5, give it a shot! See that mountain over there on the horizon - walk there! Newby that wants to explore? Just head off in any direction and you will likely find plenty of changes in scenery, remote dungeons, secluded beaches, huge mountains - did i mention there was no zones? Did i mention you didn't feel like you were often surounded by a mountain range that was simply put there to fence you in? Bahh...
Again, you are simply showing your fanboism for WOW. Give it a rest. You are only fooling yourself.
this is a lie, theres no point in exploring WoW, lets look at SWG: 7 fully explorable worlds, where you were rewarded for exploring far out places.
"I dont know how long you played WoW for but in my eyes it has just as much content if not more than the EQ's, AC's, AO's, etc"
i've never played any of the games you listed, but i do realize you forgot to add the one game that proves why this game sucks...SWG...do i see player crafted cities in WoW, or player items?, or player mounts?, or player houses?, or player doctors who BUILD MEDICINE not just zap it out of their hands. SWG actually had soem realism to it, its like a car, while WoW is like the wheel, it just rolls, SWG roars like wookies do.
i'm talking about SWG Pre-CU, or as some call it: Pre-suck
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Im not sure how it was possible for newly created character to compete with advanced one, the new char can use a very simple gun, the other guy would be able to use a blaster or another much more powerfull weapon, able to kill u in a few shots. Granted, I never tried to kill a much higher character then I, but id like to hear how that is possible.
Its simple, WoW is level based, while SWG was skill based. Level based grind vs skill based grind. The same old grind in my book.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Skill based games. You don't have to grind for months to be able to compete.
In WOW, winning in PVP is based on - your level, your equipment. How do you get those? GRIND.
You are wrong, and have obviously too blind to see through your blizzard fanboism or have never played anything else, bar WOW or another EQ clone.
Oh, and PS - i levelled up to level 160 in AC1 without grinding for one second. So again, you are wrong. I havent played MUDs nor AC1, but in UO youd have to grind too... u grind that nasty spell resistance (PAIN!), ud grind that mining skill to get the ore.. then grind your crafting skill to make armor... skill grind.
The only game that ever came close to being NON-grinding (there is TINY grind till u reach top level) is Planetside. In that game, experience you gain will advance your battle rank (level), and with higher battle rank, you get a wider choice of weapons to pick. There is an advantage of being high rank char - you can fit into more tactical situations, but level 1 char, compared to level 25, are equal in strength. None of the MMORPGs that ive played are anything like that, they all spin around either level grind, skill grind, item grind, or any possible combination of those 3.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.