Its not instance based nearly as much as EQ and it has more diversity according to level than all of them. For each level period(say every 5 levels) there are at least 3-4+ completely different areas applicable to that person as a change of scenery. Most other mmorpg's you get a max of 2. Its got a full world to explore that isnt cutoff by having to finish a quest/leveling to gain access. WoW is very misportrayed on this forum because its not nearly as 'simple' as many of you lead others to believe. Like i keep saying i've played YOURE mmorpg's and none of them have that much more depth than WoW and not nearly as much as many of you portray. The only thing i'll say is a fact is most other games have much longer treadmills to rewards than WoW, and i think thats what many of you prefer, then presume to call WoW 'simple'.
Disagree completely. Firstly, WOW has zones. To me - zoning really sucks especially in the supposedly 'next generation' of MMORPGs.
Secondly, WOWs world isn't cutoff by having to finish a level or quest? You are kidding me right. WOW has a linear or set path that you take all the way to level 60. Now of course you don't have to follow this path if you don't want...but hell, as quests are often restricted by level so your pretty much screwed if you wish to skip ahead a little.
AC1 - you can walk anywhere, anytime, talking to anyone at any level. Think you can handle the quest to kill a level 250 lugian at level 5, give it a shot! See that mountain over there on the horizon - walk there! Newby that wants to explore? Just head off in any direction and you will likely find plenty of changes in scenery, remote dungeons, secluded beaches, huge mountains - did i mention there was no zones? Did i mention you didn't feel like you were often surounded by a mountain range that was simply put there to fence you in? Bahh...
Again, you are simply showing your fanboism for WOW. Give it a rest. You are only fooling yourself.
ummm what are you talkinig about? you can do the EXACT same thing in WoW. Did you even play it? Theres no mountain range blocking you from getting into another area. There are no zones like in EQ where theres a loading screen. Its the EXACT same thing as what your proping up AC to be, the only thing cutting you off from exploring in WoW are high level monsters, the same EXACT thing you just said.
youre really showing your ignorance when it comes to WoW. mebbe you max'd out at lvl 10 because you couldnt figure out how to get past a mountain which has paths or ways around it, but to act like its like EQ zoning and your boxed in makes me wonder if you ever had played it.
WoWs quests were a distraction from the casual monster grind. Ud still get decent EXP and decent items, as compared to grinding same mob over and over. Im not sure where u got the thought that quest rewards were useless, half of my level 55 character were quest rewards. SWG missions on the other hand were randomly generated and were so out of place they felt like silicon breasts - they look nice from far, but when u touch them, you can feel their "unnatural" rubbery feel.
Im not sure how it was possible for newly created character to compete with advanced one, the new char can use a very simple gun, the other guy would be able to use a blaster or another much more powerfull weapon, able to kill u in a few shots. Granted, I never tried to kill a much higher character then I, but id like to hear how that is possible.
Its simple, WoW is level based, while SWG was skill based. Level based grind vs skill based grind. The same old grind in my book.
Distraction from the grind? They were the grind. Things like "collect 5 of these", "kill 10 of those" were not what i would call a distraction.
The good thing about SWG is that there were lots of choices. If you didn't want to PVE grind at all you didn't have too! You could be a doctor, image designer, entertainer, merchant, chef etc etc..... PVE was only a small part of SWG.
And even if you were a profession that evolved through PVE it didn't take too much effort to reach master status. I reached master rifleman within my first week of getting the game - and that was playing casually. Therefore there was no PVE grind for a month to reach max level then another two months grinding the same dungeons to get my uber item set ...and all this just so i could start on the endgame experience (which in my case, was PVP).
PS There is nothing wrong with fake breasts. Given, they do feel harder than naturals, but they still feel like skin - not rubber!
" Its got a full world to explore that isnt cutoff by having to finish a quest/leveling to gain access."
this is a lie, theres no point in exploring WoW, lets look at SWG: 7 fully explorable worlds, where you were rewarded for exploring far out places.
"I dont know how long you played WoW for but in my eyes it has just as much content if not more than the EQ's, AC's, AO's, etc"
i've never played any of the games you listed, but i do realize you forgot to add the one game that proves why this game sucks...SWG...do i see player crafted cities in WoW, or player items?, or player mounts?, or player houses?, or player doctors who BUILD MEDICINE not just zap it out of their hands. SWG actually had soem realism to it, its like a car, while WoW is like the wheel, it just rolls, SWG roars like wookies do.
i'm talking about SWG Pre-CU, or as some call it: Pre-suck
oh gimme a break. SWG's combat was TERRIBLE. I believe they redid or were planning on redoing their combat system when WoW/EQ2 were being released, just prior to their space expansion because it was so bad, i dont know exactly what became of that. SWG was also more focused on community than actual fun play and gaming. Its like they tried to encourage a virtual society more than a fun game.
I played SWG the first days it was released and there was literally no content in that game. I know they added alot, and i wanted to try it when the space expansion hit because i thought that was a great and revolutionary idea, the thought of having my own house and then having a space ship sounded awesome(hate the idea of just being limited to a spaceship as you like in Eve). Altho i never checked back with it.
anyway SWG imo was a total letdown. It got so much hype with Raph Koster, UO lead designer leading it, then with Sony and LucasArts, and from what i gather it only gained the playerbase it did mostly because it catered to the online community type of people, who were looking more for social interaction than gaming.
which MUD's? So raising skills in UO wasnt a grind? Its the same exact thing as leveling in other games except the rewards are done differently. Dont say raising Taming wasnt one of the most time consuming acts in a game unless you exploited your skills up. AC1 had leveling, wtf are you talking about? Leveling took a longass time in AC. Those games you just listed have grinds JUST LIKE current mmorpg's, how can you say they dont? thats true that equipment means alot in WoW, much less any other mmorpg but it does take timing and twitch to be good. counterspelling an opponents 1.5 sec cast takes skill. Moving and staying behind your opponent whos trying to front you while your backstabbing him takes straffe skill. Teamwork of healing, cc'ing, etc. takes skill. There are many things in WoW that take skill but i will give you that equipment is a crutch for alot of people. Altho i'd say that applies to EVERY mmorpg, whether its some decked out spaceship blowing up noobs or having a character with a full T3 set. You obvioiusly have alot of hate for no reason and should see a shrink. You might find alot of your issues with games are caused by yourself and then your very hypocriticial when it comes to putting one game on a pedestal while knocking another. We can go into depth on any of the games you just listed as not having grinds and i'll prove youre hypocritical ass wrong again.
Let me help you out a little, as you seemed to have misunderstood his post.
To be successful in WOW's PVP you have to GRIND levels, then GRIND equipment (raids, PVE) to be able to compete. In UO and AC as well as EVE, your level and equipment doesn't dictate the winner of the battle - which in the end means that you don't need to grind as much to be competitive in PVP - if that's your goal.
And PVP in WOW is a joke. If you think it takes skill, then good for you!
I beg to differ, in UO, your armor determins how hard someone hits u, just like your weapon and skill(game skill, not your personal one) determins how hard u hit the opponent... Just like in WoW. With Eve - same story, new char with newbie weapon is in no way competetive vs seasoned player. However, in Eve it is slightly easierto be a noob since you can become a tackler in a group fight, but still, you wont be a real hitter, just someone to suicide but slow down the enemy so your main force can intercept and destroy him. You dont stand a chance against someone in a ship that is 100x times larger then yours (im talking here from the noob, just joined eve and someone with 10 mil SPs perspective, not someone in a noob ship but with 10mil SPs). So this all looks just like WoW, except there is no level dependancy, but rather item, skill or a combination of those 2.
when I PvPed in WoW, sometimes my group of 10 kicked 20-men enemy group, and sometimes 5-men group kicked our 10-men group ass. Sometimes the enemy is dumb and uses basic autoattack *snicker*... but sometimes the basterds use crazy stunts that leave me eyes-out-on-the-monitor-jaw-down-on-the-ground saying "how the F$%^&^ did he do that"? Try being a rogue, a subtiety rogue in wow, I had so much fun because most rogues are combat ones, and those do not have that many options to escape or stun. Subtiety rogues deal less dmg but have many skills (in-game) to escape the fight just to jump right in onto the enemy who though im running away for my life. Takes skills (real ones) to use skills (in-game) to beat an opponent of equal strength.
oh and dont get me started on how retarded the dancing was and how dumb it looked, which was incorporated into forcing players to watch it. I cant remember what it was called but SWG had things like that that made you completely rely on others who specialized for everything. It never was my cup of tea in its initial direction when it came out since like i said it looked to me they were focusing more on forcing people to socialize than playing a fun game. However that space expansion they had made me think they might've changed philosophies or added to what it might've lacked. dunno since i havent gone back since those early days.
Originally posted by rohbshop oh gimme a break. SWG's combat was TERRIBLE. I believe they redid or were planning on redoing their combat system when WoW/EQ2 were being released, just prior to their space expansion because it was so bad, i dont know exactly what became of that. SWG was also more focused on community than actual fun play and gaming. Its like they tried to encourage a virtual society more than a fun game. I played SWG the first days it was released and there was literally no content in that game. I know they added alot, and i wanted to try it when the space expansion hit because i thought that was a great and revolutionary idea, the thought of having my own house and then having a space ship sounded awesome(hate the idea of just being limited to a spaceship as you like in Eve). Altho i never checked back with it. anyway SWG imo was a total letdown. It got so much hype with Raph Koster, UO lead designer leading it, then with Sony and LucasArts, and from what i gather it only gained the playerbase it did mostly because it catered to the online community type of people, who were looking more for social interaction than gaming.
Delusion WOW fanboy?
I think so.
Please stop commenting on things you obviously (and admittedly) know nothing about.
AAAHHH!!!, will people please stop calling MMORPG's skill, there is no skill at all, try playing a real skill based game like AOE 3, where you actually have to think every second. MMORPG's are usually just coming up with a good combo and combining it with a bunch of other people with other combo's and spaming attacks when needed, that takes no skill, unless you count hitting a button as skill. Although the button is always soo much fun to hit!
edit: make sure you go post about your favorite grind, woot woot!
Isnt your ability to predict the opponent's action in order to use one of your special character skills is a form of human skill? With EQ1yeah id have to agree, autoattack takes no real skill. Still, strafing around moving behind your opponent so his autoattack would fail IS a tiny little personal skill you could apply in EQ1. It was a tiny, deformed and virtualy impossible to use 100% to your advantage skill. With WoW, a high level toon could have around 40-50 options to pick at given time. Those options included skills, talents, potions, spells, racial abilities, items, etc etc. Out of those 40, ud have to pick 1 that works best at this moment IS a skill. I mean, if you were fighting NPC mob 1 on 1, you were full health and the mob was about to die, would it be wise to fear it so that it woudl run into a group of other mobs and theyd all chase u? Or wouldnt it be wise to heal the main tanker whos getting hit before healing that mage who just got aggroed by a separate group of mobs (healing him would get them agro u and your group, while letting him die would make them return to their place and not wipe your raid)? All those choices, whether right ones or not, make up your personal skill, if you use them right, your are of great skill, if not - well, dying is not realy penalized in WoW.
I beg to differ, in UO, your armor determins how hard someone hits u, just like your weapon and skill(game skill, not your personal one) determins how hard u hit the opponent... Just like in WoW. With Eve - same story, new char with newbie weapon is in no way competetive vs seasoned player. However, in Eve it is slightly easierto be a noob since you can become a tackler in a group fight, but still, you wont be a real hitter, just someone to suicide but slow down the enemy so your main force can intercept and destroy him. You dont stand a chance against someone in a ship that is 100x times larger then yours (im talking here from the noob, just joined eve and someone with 10 mil SPs perspective, not someone in a noob ship but with 10mil SPs). So this all looks just like WoW, except there is no level dependancy, but rather item, skill or a combination of those 2.
when I PvPed in WoW, sometimes my group of 10 kicked 20-men enemy group, and sometimes 5-men group kicked our 10-men group ass. Sometimes the enemy is dumb and uses basic autoattack *snicker*... but sometimes the basterds use crazy stunts that leave me eyes-out-on-the-monitor-jaw-down-on-the-ground saying "how the F$%^&^ did he do that"? Try being a rogue, a subtiety rogue in wow, I had so much fun because most rogues are combat ones, and those do not have that many options to escape or stun. Subtiety rogues deal less dmg but have many skills (in-game) to escape the fight just to jump right in onto the enemy who though im running away for my life. Takes skills (real ones) to use skills (in-game) to beat an opponent of equal strength.
Sure, equipment matters but it is not the deciding factor like in WOW.
Oh yeah, killing people with a rogue required lots of skill - stun locks for the win!
Originally posted by rohbshop oh gimme a break. SWG's combat was TERRIBLE. I believe they redid or were planning on redoing their combat system when WoW/EQ2 were being released, just prior to their space expansion because it was so bad, i dont know exactly what became of that. SWG was also more focused on community than actual fun play and gaming. Its like they tried to encourage a virtual society more than a fun game. I played SWG the first days it was released and there was literally no content in that game. I know they added alot, and i wanted to try it when the space expansion hit because i thought that was a great and revolutionary idea, the thought of having my own house and then having a space ship sounded awesome(hate the idea of just being limited to a spaceship as you like in Eve). Altho i never checked back with it. anyway SWG imo was a total letdown. It got so much hype with Raph Koster, UO lead designer leading it, then with Sony and LucasArts, and from what i gather it only gained the playerbase it did mostly because it catered to the online community type of people, who were looking more for social interaction than gaming.
Delusion WOW fanboy?
I think so.
Please stop commenting on things you obviously (and admittedly) know nothing about.
Please head back to WOW, "a grind awaits".
LAWL like SWG doesnt have 10x's the grind WoW has,
or 1/10th its players.
go have fun in that virtual like you wanna live on Naboo
PS the only thing i wish WoW had that SWG does is housing, but id rather have UO housing than SWG. Oh and AC's casinos
Its not instance based nearly as much as EQ and it has more diversity according to level than all of them. For each level period(say every 5 levels) there are at least 3-4+ completely different areas applicable to that person as a change of scenery. Most other mmorpg's you get a max of 2. Its got a full world to explore that isnt cutoff by having to finish a quest/leveling to gain access. WoW is very misportrayed on this forum because its not nearly as 'simple' as many of you lead others to believe. Like i keep saying i've played YOURE mmorpg's and none of them have that much more depth than WoW and not nearly as much as many of you portray. The only thing i'll say is a fact is most other games have much longer treadmills to rewards than WoW, and i think thats what many of you prefer, then presume to call WoW 'simple'.
Disagree completely. Firstly, WOW has zones. To me - zoning really sucks especially in the supposedly 'next generation' of MMORPGs.
Secondly, WOWs world isn't cutoff by having to finish a level or quest? You are kidding me right. WOW has a linear or set path that you take all the way to level 60. Now of course you don't have to follow this path if you don't want...but hell, as quests are often restricted by level so your pretty much screwed if you wish to skip ahead a little.
AC1 - you can walk anywhere, anytime, talking to anyone at any level. Think you can handle the quest to kill a level 250 lugian at level 5, give it a shot! See that mountain over there on the horizon - walk there! Newby that wants to explore? Just head off in any direction and you will likely find plenty of changes in scenery, remote dungeons, secluded beaches, huge mountains - did i mention there was no zones? Did i mention you didn't feel like you were often surounded by a mountain range that was simply put there to fence you in? Bahh...
Again, you are simply showing your fanboism for WOW. Give it a rest. You are only fooling yourself. I agree, WoW is fairly restrictive in quests and physical world. Not as restrictive as EQ1, but still fairly restrictive. The process of zoning itself is streamlined so you dont actualy see "LOADING...PLEASE WAIT", but you do zone into dungeons. Dungeons are a separate issue however, since they are instanciated. So I guess thats an evil we have to live with. But questing could of been more flexible and branched. Factions could of been implemented - make one bad move and u r suddenly hated in ironforge. But dont make it absolute, if osmoene makes a mistake, dont force them to reroll a new char - make them pay for their mistake so they dont make it second time.
One of the reasons I left WoW (other then not enough time to play so many games I like) was I roled many chars, around 15 in total, so I found myself leveling in places where I leveld 2-3 of my chars already. That fact made me skip all the lore, and rush through levels. Thats a fault in WoW that I would love to get addressed by the dev team.
Originally posted by rohbshop LAWL like SWG doesnt have 10x's the grind WoW has, or 1/10th its players. go have fun in that virtual like you wanna live on Naboo
PS the only thing i wish WoW had that SWG does is housing, but id rather have UO housing than SWG. Oh and AC's casinos
Yeah, considering it takes 10 times longer to reach max level (not to mentioned the oh so fun raid grinds) in WOW than it does in SWG...i like your logic!
I beg to differ, in UO, your armor determins how hard someone hits u, just like your weapon and skill(game skill, not your personal one) determins how hard u hit the opponent... Just like in WoW. With Eve - same story, new char with newbie weapon is in no way competetive vs seasoned player. However, in Eve it is slightly easierto be a noob since you can become a tackler in a group fight, but still, you wont be a real hitter, just someone to suicide but slow down the enemy so your main force can intercept and destroy him. You dont stand a chance against someone in a ship that is 100x times larger then yours (im talking here from the noob, just joined eve and someone with 10 mil SPs perspective, not someone in a noob ship but with 10mil SPs). So this all looks just like WoW, except there is no level dependancy, but rather item, skill or a combination of those 2.
when I PvPed in WoW, sometimes my group of 10 kicked 20-men enemy group, and sometimes 5-men group kicked our 10-men group ass. Sometimes the enemy is dumb and uses basic autoattack *snicker*... but sometimes the basterds use crazy stunts that leave me eyes-out-on-the-monitor-jaw-down-on-the-ground saying "how the F$%^&^ did he do that"? Try being a rogue, a subtiety rogue in wow, I had so much fun because most rogues are combat ones, and those do not have that many options to escape or stun. Subtiety rogues deal less dmg but have many skills (in-game) to escape the fight just to jump right in onto the enemy who though im running away for my life. Takes skills (real ones) to use skills (in-game) to beat an opponent of equal strength.
Sure, equipment matters but it is not the deciding factor like in WOW.
Oh yeah, killing people with a rogue required lots of skill - stun locks for the win!
you really dont know much since stunlocks arent game over and never were. mebbe you needed to learn how to play your class better...
Originally posted by roadwarriors And to the person who said perfection is a pov. Well th at is some F* up logic. That's like hitlotorian subjectivism. You can't argue that a mangled body is perfection even though it might be sadisitc perfection. We have discriptive language for a reason and that is to differentiate between frames of reference and universality. In terms of universal perfection, wow is the closest out of any mmorpg. Sadistic perfection is a POV too. How about women. Some men like skinny women. Some men like fat women. Perfection is a POV. Some basic philosophy for someone who is 30 and well educated. If you concede that there is such a thing as a point of view then you must also concede that there is an objective frame of refrence for to say something is subjective is to imply that the objective exists because without objectivism there is no subjectivism, the two exist because of each other. In essence to say that everything is a relative point of view and that there is no meaning to existence is a paradox since the statement itself is purposive and dictates a purposive being as a statement from the being which is you. In other words what is cannot be unless there was before and if there was before then there was and forever will be after. IT's that simple. Your argument is essentialy saying that something comes from nothing which can never happen and never has but enough sequencing arguments based on your perception of time. The truth is all men prefer a more fit woman as it is our genetic predispositiona nd evolutionary trait to want to mate with the best choice for survival but this also entails intellect and other qualities. Youa ccuse me of being narrowminded yhet your statement about the fact that women are chose solely based on their looks is narrowminded in itself. No man dates a women based on the way she looks. No matter what they say........and you can try to disprove me but until you come up with real evidence and not statements of opinion then your logic is flawed. All of the above is logical fact proven within the realm of the paradox of which we exist. For example no man wants to bang a big girl but it happens for reasons other than the reason responsible for wanting to bang and that is the paradox applied to this argument. install WOW. Obviously you come from a third world country. Nearly every household in America has a computer and the kids do know how to use them. Actually only the upper and middle class families of america generate enough income to afford a computer on an increment of a new one every 4 years even less for more than that and more units. For your information this is a total of at most 15 percent of our country, but as technology grows and the chasm between rich an dpoor grows the percentage of people who can afford computers goes down. I am talking about 15 year old kids here not college students who take out loans and buy crappy 800 dollar systems.... The number was taken out of a sociology book written many years ago so now it's probably like five percent... Anyone over 30 has limited scope with computers and anyone under 20 does as well too. It's just facts man. Made up facts. I'm over 30, I work in the video game industry, and I am well versed in computers. My generation grew up with them. My generation is making them. My generation is programming them. Finally to correct you on the statement you made above yoru generation is not responsible for making and programming computers it is actuallyt eh generation above and bellow you. Your generation is actually, next to mine, the one that knows the least about computers...as refrenced from popular science...
edit: Just thought I'd also mention. If WoW is perfection, then weep all ye gamers. For there is nothing more to make, nothing more to play.
Once again I consolidate my position and make the outrageous claim that WOW is the closest thing to perfection any of you ahve ever experienced in terms of a mmorpg......i say close because it is lacking in certain areas but PVE wise it's the best...pvp second and all the rest is pish posh...
Once again I consolidate my position and make the outrageous claim that WOW is the closest thing to perfection any of you ahve ever experienced in terms of a mmorpg......i say close because it is lacking in certain areas but PVE wise it's the best...pvp second and all the rest is pish posh...
To you.
TO YOU.
You are forgetting that not everyone likes meaningless, zero risk PVP experiences which outcomes are mainly dictated by your grinding ability (read equipment, read level).
Once again I consolidate my position and make the outrageous claim that WOW is the closest thing to perfection any of you ahve ever experienced in terms of a mmorpg......i say close because it is lacking in certain areas but PVE wise it's the best...pvp second and all the rest is pish posh...
Look i totaly agree.
And to the person who said people 30 and over dont know how to operate computers, well erm, i'm over 30, and i grew up around computers.
Yes it started out with an apple 2e, a commodore 64, but it wasnt long before i got my hands on a good old 286.
But i guess if you come to an open forum, you can expect to see people fling around quoets and figures and 'survey's willy nilly.
Its funny because, theres so many of these little forums all over the internet of people bitchin about whats wrong with world of warcraft, and complaining about how many people play. Then people reading them who have never played need to know why theres so much talk about it. So they try it, and they get hooked. Blizzard should be thankful for people like you!
Lets run down the list now PVE wise........for wow and compare it to other games......
UO - Close but pve was slow and not very entertaining...A statement of fact. Neurologists study neuroactivity and link the activity to feeling sof excitment. More neuroactivity means more excitement hands down you can't argue this.
EQ - Same as above plus half hour down times = really really bad game. Any game where your staring at the screen doing nothing waiting almost a half hour for your mana and life to recharge is pathetic. And if your grouped you still have downtime but lets be fair and cut it downt o 25 minutes instead of 30...
EQ II - Well considering combat is still broken we can't even go here..........bad game mechanics = unfinished game.
Vanguard - Haven't played but from what I hear very uninspiring...
WOW. No downtime. Constant movement means constant thinking constant decision making but not intense to the point that causes anxiety which can slowly kill you like someo f the other games. Perfection achieved.
SWG - Combat not impletment yet even three years after release SWG is still using it's beta combat system....
Ever - No combat what so ever. Entirely micromanaged. Better then the rest for those who have trouble making spontaneous decisions but not more exciting.
Guild wars- Anxiety level = cancer. Too much luck involved no skill required what so ever. Started a pvp char joined a guild wooped on tricks like crazy the first day got 10,000 faction in less than three hours...couldn't ever do it again. Prognosis...game of luck. Multiply the above by 20 since all 20 of my guildmates from uo experienced 99.9 perecent similar results. I'll show you the spread sheet later.
Now let's get to lineage - You basically get two attacks for 75 levels which equals 200 wow levels. These types of games are usually better in the east where people think less on there own and more collectively. I.e. my suffering is his gain and this is good because society improves where as us westerners think entirely differen.t
WoW PvP is skilless. The Rock, Paper, Scissors example makes sure of this. If you (class X) attack (Class Y) you'll win (if class Y == your class killer). That said, if (class Y) has T3 gear and you have T1 or less, your loose again. Its the FORCED GRIND I think most are talking about. I HAVE to PvE so that I can just compete in PvP. The fact that my guild rolled Horde and DID NOT GET PALLADINS or D0rf Preists with Fear ward and therefore nerfing our own PvE potential makes it all the worse. WoW is, as an above poster said, all about the grind. And thats true. World PvP is more or less dead. So what do they do, put in cross server battlegroups. Now there is allways enough people to make the next BG (AkA Honor Grind zone) spawn. You have to grind items to grind PvP honor, grind grind grind grind. meh. As for the whole, skill in PvP argument. Wow requires a lot of button mashing, they have not make the classes simple to play at all. From a technical standpoint its actually a fairly complicated game toplay. That said, IMO, complex character control is not skill. The use of tactics to win the 1 v 1 battles that exist are more akin to skill than deciding what button to mash. An example. In a more 'pure' PvP game, casters (mage for this example) are fodder. If a melee class gets near the caster he dies. (in WoW the casters have 'get out of jail free cards to negate this (PoM Polly, Frost Nova, Blink, in a more skillfull game they would require people to guard them so they can rain down holy terror on the enemy). The skill here is multifold. As a group, you have to fight the 1 v 1's, take out enemy healers/casters while protecting yours. Collsion detection makes this even more skill based. It requires group tactics in order to win. That said I feel that my group of 5 (or 6 or 8 depending on game) is better than most. In WoW, its almost purely zerg on zerg, honor grinding, random PuG people etc. So, go play WSG you'd say!. We actually did that. And after going I would honestly say 500-50, it A got old and B lost its allure. AB was fun as I could organize 15 of us to Play together, and we also did well here, prolly 300 or 400 to mebbe 40 or 50 losses. But that got old too. AV.... we do Preform AV's but the map just makes it too hard, and waiting around for a queue when I can get all 40 of my people in sucks. I yearn (as does most of my guild) for Emain Macha again. Im not knocking WoW PvP, hey if you did the Naxx grind to get 9/9 Naxx gear, I guess, you deserve something for it. What i've found after 20 years of gaming (ya im old) is that PvP'ers make the absolute WORST PvE'ers.
I think the greatest pisconception about WoW's PvP is when people say WoW PvP sux they think tactical PvP. Tactical PvP is what your char does next, as opposed to strategic PvP where you plan ahead what city to capture, send your troops there, watch results of that battle, plan your next move. In a strategic sense, WoW has no PvP - there is nothing to capture, there is just grind honor, thats it. From a tactical view, however, WoW has a pretty elaborate, fast paced and fun PvP. I had fun raiding opponents or defending against opponents (TM for hte win WOOOO). The fact that PvE items would make people who could afford to spend 80+ hours a week with much better chances of survival did some damage to the fun level ( I hate when peeps with ultimate godly sword of nerding would own many people before falling down, who doesnt? ), but still, that aside WoW PvP was fun - just like Counterstrike, fun for a round, next round, all over again.
If WoW had strategic PvP of anything DAOC like, or L2 like, or Planetside (OMG Bliz plz do that!) like, then WoW's pop would double for sure.
Once again I consolidate my position and make the outrageous claim that WOW is the closest thing to perfection any of you ahve ever experienced in terms of a mmorpg......i say close because it is lacking in certain areas but PVE wise it's the best...pvp second and all the rest is pish posh...
To you.
TO YOU.
You are forgetting that not everyone likes meaningless, zero risk PVP experiences which outcomes are mainly dictated by your grinding ability (read equipment, read level).
I''ll admit it's not perfect but it's thje closest.
you really dont know much since stunlocks arent game over and never were. mebbe you needed to learn how to play your class better...
mebbe he does
mebbe he doesn't
mebbe fighting an opponent that can't fight back for more than half the fight isn't a good example of 'player skill'
mebbe if stunlock was game over and nobody could fight back from it everyone would roll rogues and there would be 11000000 rogues and none of every other class.
thank god alot of the stuff people believe about wow here are either lies or misconceptions from nubs
WoW PvP is skilless. The Rock, Paper, Scissors example makes sure of this. If you (class X) attack (Class Y) you'll win (if class Y == your class killer). That said, if (class Y) has T3 gear and you have T1 or less, your loose again. Its the FORCED GRIND I think most are talking about. I HAVE to PvE so that I can just compete in PvP. The fact that my guild rolled Horde and DID NOT GET PALLADINS or D0rf Preists with Fear ward and therefore nerfing our own PvE potential makes it all the worse. WoW is, as an above poster said, all about the grind. And thats true. World PvP is more or less dead. So what do they do, put in cross server battlegroups. Now there is allways enough people to make the next BG (AkA Honor Grind zone) spawn. You have to grind items to grind PvP honor, grind grind grind grind. meh. As for the whole, skill in PvP argument. Wow requires a lot of button mashing, they have not make the classes simple to play at all. From a technical standpoint its actually a fairly complicated game toplay. That said, IMO, complex character control is not skill. The use of tactics to win the 1 v 1 battles that exist are more akin to skill than deciding what button to mash. An example. In a more 'pure' PvP game, casters (mage for this example) are fodder. If a melee class gets near the caster he dies. (in WoW the casters have 'get out of jail free cards to negate this (PoM Polly, Frost Nova, Blink, in a more skillfull game they would require people to guard them so they can rain down holy terror on the enemy). The skill here is multifold. As a group, you have to fight the 1 v 1's, take out enemy healers/casters while protecting yours. Collsion detection makes this even more skill based. It requires group tactics in order to win. That said I feel that my group of 5 (or 6 or 8 depending on game) is better than most. In WoW, its almost purely zerg on zerg, honor grinding, random PuG people etc. So, go play WSG you'd say!. We actually did that. And after going I would honestly say 500-50, it A got old and B lost its allure. AB was fun as I could organize 15 of us to Play together, and we also did well here, prolly 300 or 400 to mebbe 40 or 50 losses. But that got old too. AV.... we do Preform AV's but the map just makes it too hard, and waiting around for a queue when I can get all 40 of my people in sucks. I yearn (as does most of my guild) for Emain Macha again. Im not knocking WoW PvP, hey if you did the Naxx grind to get 9/9 Naxx gear, I guess, you deserve something for it. What i've found after 20 years of gaming (ya im old) is that PvP'ers make the absolute WORST PvE'ers.
I think the greatest pisconception about WoW's PvP is when people say WoW PvP sux they think tactical PvP. Tactical PvP is what your char does next, as opposed to strategic PvP where you plan ahead what city to capture, send your troops there, watch results of that battle, plan your next move. In a strategic sense, WoW has no PvP - there is nothing to capture, there is just grind honor, thats it. From a tactical view, however, WoW has a pretty elaborate, fast paced and fun PvP. I had fun raiding opponents or defending against opponents (TM for hte win WOOOO). The fact that PvE items would make people who could afford to spend 80+ hours a week with much better chances of survival did some damage to the fun level ( I hate when peeps with ultimate godly sword of nerding would own many people before falling down, who doesnt? ), but still, that aside WoW PvP was fun - just like Counterstrike, fun for a round, next round, all over again.
If WoW had strategic PvP of anything DAOC like, or L2 like, or Planetside (OMG Bliz plz do that!) like, then WoW's pop would double for sure.
And that is the next step int he evolution of what is WOW strategic pvp...and it will happen i'm guessing one month before Warhammer is released. To tell you the truth if wow implements ar ealm type system or anything of that nature warhammer stands no cahnce. I didn't even know what warhammer was until i heard about the game and I promise you most people who play mmorpgs in the future won't either...But I like warhammer and have high hopes for it now that i know...but my point is you can't say warhammer is going to be good because it has the warhammer universe just like wow isn't good because it has the wow universe.
Comments
Secondly, WOWs world isn't cutoff by having to finish a level or quest? You are kidding me right. WOW has a linear or set path that you take all the way to level 60. Now of course you don't have to follow this path if you don't want...but hell, as quests are often restricted by level so your pretty much screwed if you wish to skip ahead a little.
AC1 - you can walk anywhere, anytime, talking to anyone at any level. Think you can handle the quest to kill a level 250 lugian at level 5, give it a shot! See that mountain over there on the horizon - walk there! Newby that wants to explore? Just head off in any direction and you will likely find plenty of changes in scenery, remote dungeons, secluded beaches, huge mountains - did i mention there was no zones? Did i mention you didn't feel like you were often surounded by a mountain range that was simply put there to fence you in? Bahh...
Again, you are simply showing your fanboism for WOW. Give it a rest. You are only fooling yourself.
ummm what are you talkinig about? you can do the EXACT same thing in WoW. Did you even play it? Theres no mountain range blocking you from getting into another area. There are no zones like in EQ where theres a loading screen. Its the EXACT same thing as what your proping up AC to be, the only thing cutting you off from exploring in WoW are high level monsters, the same EXACT thing you just said.
youre really showing your ignorance when it comes to WoW. mebbe you max'd out at lvl 10 because you couldnt figure out how to get past a mountain which has paths or ways around it, but to act like its like EQ zoning and your boxed in makes me wonder if you ever had played it.
The good thing about SWG is that there were lots of choices. If you didn't want to PVE grind at all you didn't have too! You could be a doctor, image designer, entertainer, merchant, chef etc etc..... PVE was only a small part of SWG.
And even if you were a profession that evolved through PVE it didn't take too much effort to reach master status. I reached master rifleman within my first week of getting the game - and that was playing casually. Therefore there was no PVE grind for a month to reach max level then another two months grinding the same dungeons to get my uber item set ...and all this just so i could start on the endgame experience (which in my case, was PVP).
PS There is nothing wrong with fake breasts. Given, they do feel harder than naturals, but they still feel like skin - not rubber!
oh gimme a break. SWG's combat was TERRIBLE. I believe they redid or were planning on redoing their combat system when WoW/EQ2 were being released, just prior to their space expansion because it was so bad, i dont know exactly what became of that. SWG was also more focused on community than actual fun play and gaming. Its like they tried to encourage a virtual society more than a fun game.
I played SWG the first days it was released and there was literally no content in that game. I know they added alot, and i wanted to try it when the space expansion hit because i thought that was a great and revolutionary idea, the thought of having my own house and then having a space ship sounded awesome(hate the idea of just being limited to a spaceship as you like in Eve). Altho i never checked back with it.
anyway SWG imo was a total letdown. It got so much hype with Raph Koster, UO lead designer leading it, then with Sony and LucasArts, and from what i gather it only gained the playerbase it did mostly because it catered to the online community type of people, who were looking more for social interaction than gaming.
To be successful in WOW's PVP you have to GRIND levels, then GRIND equipment (raids, PVE) to be able to compete. In UO and AC as well as EVE, your level and equipment doesn't dictate the winner of the battle - which in the end means that you don't need to grind as much to be competitive in PVP - if that's your goal.
And PVP in WOW is a joke. If you think it takes skill, then good for you!
I beg to differ, in UO, your armor determins how hard someone hits u, just like your weapon and skill(game skill, not your personal one) determins how hard u hit the opponent... Just like in WoW. With Eve - same story, new char with newbie weapon is in no way competetive vs seasoned player. However, in Eve it is slightly easierto be a noob since you can become a tackler in a group fight, but still, you wont be a real hitter, just someone to suicide but slow down the enemy so your main force can intercept and destroy him. You dont stand a chance against someone in a ship that is 100x times larger then yours (im talking here from the noob, just joined eve and someone with 10 mil SPs perspective, not someone in a noob ship but with 10mil SPs). So this all looks just like WoW, except there is no level dependancy, but rather item, skill or a combination of those 2.
when I PvPed in WoW, sometimes my group of 10 kicked 20-men enemy group, and sometimes 5-men group kicked our 10-men group ass. Sometimes the enemy is dumb and uses basic autoattack *snicker*... but sometimes the basterds use crazy stunts that leave me eyes-out-on-the-monitor-jaw-down-on-the-ground saying "how the F$%^&^ did he do that"? Try being a rogue, a subtiety rogue in wow, I had so much fun because most rogues are combat ones, and those do not have that many options to escape or stun. Subtiety rogues deal less dmg but have many skills (in-game) to escape the fight just to jump right in onto the enemy who though im running away for my life. Takes skills (real ones) to use skills (in-game) to beat an opponent of equal strength.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
oh and dont get me started on how retarded the dancing was and how dumb it looked, which was incorporated into forcing players to watch it. I cant remember what it was called but SWG had things like that that made you completely rely on others who specialized for everything. It never was my cup of tea in its initial direction when it came out since like i said it looked to me they were focusing more on forcing people to socialize than playing a fun game. However that space expansion they had made me think they might've changed philosophies or added to what it might've lacked. dunno since i havent gone back since those early days.
I think so.
Please stop commenting on things you obviously (and admittedly) know nothing about.
Please head back to WOW, "a grind awaits".
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Oh yeah, killing people with a rogue required lots of skill - stun locks for the win!
I think so.
Please stop commenting on things you obviously (and admittedly) know nothing about.
Please head back to WOW, "a grind awaits".
LAWL like SWG doesnt have 10x's the grind WoW has,
or 1/10th its players.
go have fun in that virtual like you wanna live on Naboo
PS the only thing i wish WoW had that SWG does is housing, but id rather have UO housing than SWG. Oh and AC's casinos
Secondly, WOWs world isn't cutoff by having to finish a level or quest? You are kidding me right. WOW has a linear or set path that you take all the way to level 60. Now of course you don't have to follow this path if you don't want...but hell, as quests are often restricted by level so your pretty much screwed if you wish to skip ahead a little.
AC1 - you can walk anywhere, anytime, talking to anyone at any level. Think you can handle the quest to kill a level 250 lugian at level 5, give it a shot! See that mountain over there on the horizon - walk there! Newby that wants to explore? Just head off in any direction and you will likely find plenty of changes in scenery, remote dungeons, secluded beaches, huge mountains - did i mention there was no zones? Did i mention you didn't feel like you were often surounded by a mountain range that was simply put there to fence you in? Bahh...
Again, you are simply showing your fanboism for WOW. Give it a rest. You are only fooling yourself. I agree, WoW is fairly restrictive in quests and physical world. Not as restrictive as EQ1, but still fairly restrictive. The process of zoning itself is streamlined so you dont actualy see "LOADING...PLEASE WAIT", but you do zone into dungeons. Dungeons are a separate issue however, since they are instanciated. So I guess thats an evil we have to live with. But questing could of been more flexible and branched. Factions could of been implemented - make one bad move and u r suddenly hated in ironforge. But dont make it absolute, if osmoene makes a mistake, dont force them to reroll a new char - make them pay for their mistake so they dont make it second time.
One of the reasons I left WoW (other then not enough time to play so many games I like) was I roled many chars, around 15 in total, so I found myself leveling in places where I leveld 2-3 of my chars already. That fact made me skip all the lore, and rush through levels. Thats a fault in WoW that I would love to get addressed by the dev team.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Yeah, considering it takes 10 times longer to reach max level (not to mentioned the oh so fun raid grinds) in WOW than it does in SWG...i like your logic!
Oh yeah, killing people with a rogue required lots of skill - stun locks for the win!
you really dont know much since stunlocks arent game over and never were. mebbe you needed to learn how to play your class better...
People have fun playing World of Warcraft.
mebbe he doesn't
mebbe fighting an opponent that can't fight back for more than half the fight isn't a good example of 'player skill'
TO YOU.
You are forgetting that not everyone likes meaningless, zero risk PVP experiences which outcomes are mainly dictated by your grinding ability (read equipment, read level).
And to the person who said people 30 and over dont know how to operate computers, well erm, i'm over 30, and i grew up around computers.
Yes it started out with an apple 2e, a commodore 64, but it wasnt long before i got my hands on a good old 286.
But i guess if you come to an open forum, you can expect to see people fling around quoets and figures and 'survey's willy nilly.
I'm Ginetti,
Goodnight.
----
MMORPG's I've Played: World of Warcraft: 10/10 - Rappelz: 7/10 - Ragnarok Online: 8/10 - DnD Online: 2/10 - Runescape: 6/10 - LotR Online: 5/10 - Anarchy Online: 7/10 - CoV: 8/10 - Rohan Online: 8/10 - Guild Wars: 7/10 - Flyff: 8/10 - Warhammer Online: 8/10
My HARDCORE Story
Lets run down the list now PVE wise........for wow and compare it to other games......
UO - Close but pve was slow and not very entertaining...A statement of fact. Neurologists study neuroactivity and link the activity to feeling sof excitment. More neuroactivity means more excitement hands down you can't argue this.
EQ - Same as above plus half hour down times = really really bad game. Any game where your staring at the screen doing nothing waiting almost a half hour for your mana and life to recharge is pathetic. And if your grouped you still have downtime but lets be fair and cut it downt o 25 minutes instead of 30...
EQ II - Well considering combat is still broken we can't even go here..........bad game mechanics = unfinished game.
Vanguard - Haven't played but from what I hear very uninspiring...
WOW. No downtime. Constant movement means constant thinking constant decision making but not intense to the point that causes anxiety which can slowly kill you like someo f the other games. Perfection achieved.
SWG - Combat not impletment yet even three years after release SWG is still using it's beta combat system....
Ever - No combat what so ever. Entirely micromanaged. Better then the rest for those who have trouble making spontaneous decisions but not more exciting.
Guild wars- Anxiety level = cancer. Too much luck involved no skill required what so ever. Started a pvp char joined a guild wooped on tricks like crazy the first day got 10,000 faction in less than three hours...couldn't ever do it again. Prognosis...game of luck. Multiply the above by 20 since all 20 of my guildmates from uo experienced 99.9 perecent similar results. I'll show you the spread sheet later.
Now let's get to lineage - You basically get two attacks for 75 levels which equals 200 wow levels. These types of games are usually better in the east where people think less on there own and more collectively. I.e. my suffering is his gain and this is good because society improves where as us westerners think entirely differen.t
If WoW had strategic PvP of anything DAOC like, or L2 like, or Planetside (OMG Bliz plz do that!) like, then WoW's pop would double for sure.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
TO YOU.
You are forgetting that not everyone likes meaningless, zero risk PVP experiences which outcomes are mainly dictated by your grinding ability (read equipment, read level).
I''ll admit it's not perfect but it's thje closest.
mebbe he doesn't
mebbe fighting an opponent that can't fight back for more than half the fight isn't a good example of 'player skill'
mebbe if stunlock was game over and nobody could fight back from it everyone would roll rogues and there would be 11000000 rogues and none of every other class.
thank god alot of the stuff people believe about wow here are either lies or misconceptions from nubs
Silly me.
If WoW had strategic PvP of anything DAOC like, or L2 like, or Planetside (OMG Bliz plz do that!) like, then WoW's pop would double for sure.
And that is the next step int he evolution of what is WOW strategic pvp...and it will happen i'm guessing one month before Warhammer is released. To tell you the truth if wow implements ar ealm type system or anything of that nature warhammer stands no cahnce. I didn't even know what warhammer was until i heard about the game and I promise you most people who play mmorpgs in the future won't either...But I like warhammer and have high hopes for it now that i know...but my point is you can't say warhammer is going to be good because it has the warhammer universe just like wow isn't good because it has the wow universe.