The biggest reason for the lack of open hostility between the PvP and PvE players in DAoC was the PvE players were the majority of crafters. Once Alchemy and Spellcrafting entered the game, that was the best way to min/max your PvP character. As such, most of the PvPers saw this and were nice to the PvEers. The PvEers were also the ones who were able to repair the keep and relic keep doors the most efficiently as well as had the largest stash of money. In DAoC, they really did strike a good balance between both worlds until they released TOA and forced the PvPers into having to PvE to compete.
Funny how much that contrasts with WoW. PvE players (read:raiders) in there more often than not are a bunch of gloating douchebags who think that anyone who doesn't spend 3 hours raiding 5 days a week is a piece of subhuman garbage who doesn't deserve a place in the game.
While I'm not really a PVE guy, I realize that we all have our preferences and I too hope there will be some kind of harmony between the 2 communities in WAR.
People going : Oh my! i heard a rumor that the game's PVE won't challenge my IQ enuf - are just plain silly. Buy the game, play the game, and then go OH MY!, if you will still feel justified to, don't just base your decision on the random scenarios that pop in yer brain or the conclusions of the folk that are having fun chatting about it.
I heard that in 2047 there will be an MMORPG released that won't have TIER7 armor! I won't play the darn thing because i wanna enter the Guiness Book by being the first person ever to own 1 of those sets!
Edit : (while still browsing through the posts)
My eyes hurt from all the whining! Can most PVErs be more selfish? : So you'd like to ruin this game as well by making Mythic compromise to appeal to everyone ?
Another thought, another Edit :
We shouldn't look down on one another just for being more into some aspects of the game than others, this debate became more about "who's right" than the game itself, and we may all be wrong when making premature asumptions.
the conclusion :
hardcore PVErs should give up on trying to achieve world domination by just spending more time fighting AI controlled monsters than others - because it just shows you're snobs.
and pure PVPrs are in for a suprise too as this won't be your tipical : Get to chain grief other players type-o game since it doesn't advertise pure chaotic pvp, and yes there won't be any corpses lieing around to camp.
By watching the quest podcast, even if you to only to PvE you are helping your realm. The Public questing system sounds amazing, and I cant wait to see it when they show it off. You get rewarded based on how much you contribute is awesome, people that contribute less, gets less reward then others.
Alot of people are turned off PvP, because they dont want to ridicule by people that beat them. Its a game, it is not like people are going to show up at your job and yell, "Look at Joe, I so PWN Him!!!1111!!!
hm, you want PvE endgame but you dont want raiding thats like a contradiction of sorts. you cant have one without the other sadly.
Um, actualy yes you can and WAR will. The end game PvE in WAR will be the public quest system. You enter a zone with a public quest going, no need to form a large raid group, no need to schedule ahead of time with 39 of your guildies, you just start aiding in whatever step the quest is on. Everyone in the zone who takes part in completing quest objectives will get credit towards competing the quest and once all the steps are done, everyone who helped gets a share of the loot based on their contribution. It also helps your side in RvR so that PvE can play a role in furthing the cause along with PvP.
The guys that build the tank are just as useful as the guys who drive it. And the guy who fights the enemy NPCs is just as useful as the guy who fights the enemy PCs.
I think Mythic doesn’t want the word “Endgame” to be associated with WAR, since the War is never ending in their game. If You only want to do PvE than that’s what you do, because it will still aid your realm, while others are aiding their realm more by PvEing and do RvR quests, skirmishes, etc. I still think Public Quests will be a big thing to people that like PvE.
To date the public doesn’t know a whole lot information about certain aspects of this game. It is a wait and see game right now. Heck, by watching the Quest Podcast with Paul, he could sell the game to any PvE centric person or any person for that matter.
I think Mythic doesn’t want the word “Endgame” to be associated with WAR, since the War is never ending in their game. If You only want to do PvE than that’s what you do, because it will still aid your realm, while others are aiding their realm more by PvEing and do RvR quests, skirmishes, etc. I still think Public Quests will be a big thing to people that like PvE.
To date the public doesn’t know a whole lot information about certain aspects of this game. It is a wait and see game right now. Heck, by watching the Quest Podcast with Paul, he could sell the game to any PvE centric person or any person for that matter.
I'm not a PvE fan, but the way Paul described their PvE I'm most definitely looking forward to it.
I play WoW, and the way he mentions how annoying it is to kill a bear and it not drop a bear paw is just so true... I hate drop quests in WoW that aren't 100%, I've just finished a quest with a very poor drop rate, and the fact that I completed it made reality dawn on me "why am I wasting my life?!"... but I quickly shrugged that off.
PvE and PvP both need to be done correctly, any other WoW-type game may kill the MMORPG genre as people will soon realise just how much a waste of time it is to run to dead ends in game. Thankfully, WAR promises none of this nonsense which are in most current MMOG's, which is why I'm looking forward to it.
hm, you want PvE endgame but you dont want raiding thats like a contradiction of sorts. you cant have one without the other sadly.
Um, actualy yes you can and WAR will. The end game PvE in WAR will be the public quest system. You enter a zone with a public quest going, no need to form a large raid group, no need to schedule ahead of time with 39 of your guildies, you just start aiding in whatever step the quest is on. Everyone in the zone who takes part in completing quest objectives will get credit towards competing the quest and once all the steps are done, everyone who helped gets a share of the loot based on their contribution. It also helps your side in RvR so that PvE can play a role in furthing the cause along with PvP.
That it is -NOT- an end game activity that is simply a "grouping mechanism" that automatically puts everyone in the zone on the same team. Public Quest System, as been stated in multiple sources, is a tool that will be utilized throughout our leveling careers
Endgame is the anomaly we all face at the end of the level grind in which skill based games tend to avoid because the goal isn't reaching max level cap. In a Level based system, you most assuredly must provide a level cap that way at some point along the treadmill- friends can team together at some point along their careers. Everquest 1 initiated end game with high level dungeons allowing all their customers that reached the "end game" to team together. And this is what this topic is about. The original poster knows WAR must have an "End game" and he is requesting information about "Which" high level content this game will have. We already know "public quest system" will be utilized throughout our leveling careers so its not what we're talking bout here
For instance, in City of Heroes the "endgame" is raiding/farming the LRSF / Hamidon raids for the best enhancements in the game. Like WoW, pvpers are forced to raid endgame content for the best loot (not sure if WoW:TBC ever resolved this issue)
what you refer to is the "Public Quest System" which is merely a grouping mechanism that WAR will utilize to organize players onto teams. But that does not tell the OP anything at all- he must assuredly already knows WAR will have that. They've released many videos about that months ago. He wants to know "what" PvE end game WAR will have (dungeons, etc). So will he be chopping trees, mining minerals, and cooking the frontline soldiers dinner at "end game"? This is the loaded question the OP is asking. At which point will he be performing a repetitive activity because at some point- a pve'er will most assuredly run out of content
Wasn't sure if you did not understand what "end game" meant by your post so thought I should elaborate
Has there been any elaboration of activities for max level characters other than RvR and City Sieges?
Has there been any elaboration anywhere in regards to loot systems (Other than high end loot will be found in capitals)?
Don't lose faith Anofalye. Like others have said, raids may simply be like the final stage of a Public Quest chain. A mega boss to be taken down by groups of other players all engaged in the same Public Quest. By which the reward received is due to your characters influence on the quest giver (In other words, how much of this quest line did you do already?) and the amount of participation you had to kill the final boss.
Or as others had said, there will be raids, and the Public Quest system is simply a new quest tool for players.
Has anyone read or heard ofiicially about raiding PvE areas yet in WAR?
I haven't heard much of these topics in my newsletter, interviews, etc.
As far as loot systems, all I can recall is that loot from city capitals will be highly desirable and that players will be able to loot other players, but the loot will be randomized as if they were in PvE. So no one will lose their gear, even in PvP.
So , as far as I can tell, there will be no major advantage too loot tables for PvE vs. PvP gaming players0except when it comes to city capitals. The rest is speculation.
If I were part of the design team, I would consider tougher public quests in PvE areas for the city capital areas. the PvE quests could release a big hero or machine to help conquer the city ( helping PvPers) and PvE players get rewards from quest giver. Likewise when the high elves own the dark elf city, the shamed dark elf PvE area could initiate a public quest series to allow the players a chance to reclaim their fallen city..
The biggest reason for the lack of open hostility between the PvP and PvE players in DAoC was the PvE players were the majority of crafters. Once Alchemy and Spellcrafting entered the game, that was the best way to min/max your PvP character. As such, most of the PvPers saw this and were nice to the PvEers. The PvEers were also the ones who were able to repair the keep and relic keep doors the most efficiently as well as had the largest stash of money. In DAoC, they really did strike a good balance between both worlds until they released TOA and forced the PvPers into having to PvE to compete.
Funny how much that contrasts with WoW. PvE players (read:raiders) in there more often than not are a bunch of gloating douchebags who think that anyone who doesn't spend 3 hours raiding 5 days a week is a piece of subhuman garbage who doesn't deserve a place in the game.
While I'm not really a PVE guy, I realize that we all have our preferences and I too hope there will be some kind of harmony between the 2 communities in WAR.That was the best part of pvp in WoW for me Ganking that pally in his epic T1 raid gear with my pathetic pvp gear because he is only a raid player with no idea how to play his class unless he has 39 of his buddies behind him.
That was the best part of pvp in WoW for me Ganking that pally in his epic T1 raid gear with my pathetic pvp gear because he is only a raid player with no idea how to play his class unless he has 39 of his buddies behind him.
ok.... thats your favorite part? GOOD! now take away the 15 levels worth of stats he has in advantage over you, but him in exactly the same level of gear as you and now because he is such a poor player he will group with a larger number of people. Thus you get to use your skill to kill 15-30 people with just your group of 6.
This is pretty much what wound up happening in daoc.
as far as endgame.... i will say it again.
pve'rs will usually want statistical advancement through weaponry as motivation to do player vs enviornment. There is no statistical advancement of your charachter to be gained in the endgame, much less through player vs enviornment. therefore your motivation to pve is FUN.... (which is why you didnt have ninja looters in daoc but they run rampant in wow) and not gain.
Same as for the pvp rvr standpoint. You rvr for the fun and not for the gain. DAoC had rvr without gain for about a year, then they came out with realm abilities which helped you in pvp combat but you gained about a point per month and abilities would cost 4-7 points so you where pretty much just out there for the fun of it and to have your name on the leader board.
Its amazing to me how the player culture of daoc and wow differ, yet daoc and UO where similar. is it just that times have changed? or is it that the wow system started the "carrot on a stick" philosophy where people needed constant statistical rewards or be left behind as motivation to do anything in the game and not fun?
I'm looking forward to Mythics Warhammer quite a bit now I suppose, even though I too am disappointed by the back seat PvE seems to take. I'm sure it will do well and probably be a lot of fun to play. However, I just don't see enough longevity and depth without a solid PvE game to hold my interest. Hopefully I'm wrong.
I don't know if you remember: http://www.gamestats.com/objects/573/573062/index.html this at all, but I was following it religiously while it was in development. The Warhammer universe is so rich in lore & style, but unfortunately I don't see a lot of that shining through in a primarily RvR environment. I really would have loved to see how this one turned out.
(Not to mention I really liked the gritty look of the original "Warhammer Online" much more).
hm, you want PvE endgame but you dont want raiding thats like a contradiction of sorts. you cant have one without the other sadly.
For instance, in City of Heroes the "endgame" is raiding/farming the LRSF / Hamidon raids for the best enhancements in the game. Like WoW, pvpers are forced to raid endgame content for the best loot (not sure if WoW:TBC ever resolved this issue)
You just answer yourself with 1 example of endgame without involving raiding in anyway. You can have PvE-endgame without raiding, as you clearly demonstrated.
In red, you contradict yourself partially. Yes PvPers are forced to PvE and this is bad. However, they are not forced to raid anymore then I am, they can group in the RSF or the STF. I agree, they shouldn't be forced to PvE, anymore then a game should force me to raid or PvP.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
pve'rs will usually want statistical advancement through weaponry as motivation to do player vs enviornment. There is no statistical advancement of your charachter to be gained in the endgame, much less through player vs enviornment. therefore your motivation to pve is FUN.... (which is why you didnt have ninja looters in daoc but they run rampant in wow) and not gain.
I would disagree.
The main reason DAoC was ninja-looter free was the superior looting tools. Ninja looting in DAoC was clearly difficult at least.
FUN is linked with GAIN for me. To think otherwise is to fool yourself. I won't play a game where the GAIN is not adequate; at least not for long. I am human, not good, not bad. I am selfish. I want to advance and to progress, which is why I play RPG. GAIN, PROGRESSION, ADVANCEMENTS, this is my very motivation to play these games (and also why I would never sell my stuff or toons in EQ no matter what, it destroy the very reason I was playing these games and making fun, having my level 65 chanter sitting on her accomplishment is the final result of my fun, to remove the final result isn't acceptable to me and would send me away quite fast). Ignoring this is just missing me as a player, for the better or the worst.
See, to fight the computer, a lowly AI that is designed in such a way that I can feel at home and comfortable. To fight it over and over and over again...why do you think I do so? I do it to PROGRESS. Solo/group-wise, but to progress nonetheless.
The candy matters a LOT to me. No candy, no Anofalye. The candy itself alone is useless, and pointless...but earning it, that is what matter. If I can't earn it, I won't play it. Why do you think I write 6k messages about raiding-lackness? Because they remove, unjustly, my rightfull candy...I can't care less if there is or no raiding, as long as it doesn't remove my rightfull grouping/soloing candies...which it does on Gaheris or EQ, EQ2 and WoW. I don't complain against the Hamidon raids in CoV...because they don't remove my candies. Remove my candies and give it away outside of grouping/soloing...and you will have problems with me. The reward does matter.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
pve'rs will usually want statistical advancement through weaponry as motivation to do player vs enviornment. There is no statistical advancement of your charachter to be gained in the endgame, much less through player vs enviornment. therefore your motivation to pve is FUN.... (which is why you didnt have ninja looters in daoc but they run rampant in wow) and not gain.
I would disagree.
The main reason DAoC was ninja-looter free was the superior looting tools. Ninja looting in DAoC was clearly difficult at least.
FUN is linked with GAIN for me. To think otherwise is to fool yourself. I won't play a game where the GAIN is not adequate; at least not for long. I am human, not good, not bad. I am selfish. I want to advance and to progress, which is why I play RPG. GAIN, PROGRESSION, ADVANCEMENTS, this is my very motivation to play these games. Ignoring this is just missing me as a player, for the better or the worst.
See, to fight the computer, a lowly AI that is designed in such a way that I can feel at home and comfortable. To fight it over and over and over again...why do you think I do so? I do it to PROGRESS. Solo/group-wise, but to progress nonetheless.
The candy matters a LOT to me. No candy, no Anofalye. The candy itself alone is useless, and pointless...but earning it, that is what matter. If I can't earn it, I won't play it. Why do you think I write 6k messages about raiding-lackness? Because they remove, unjustly, my rightfull candy...I can't care less if there is or no raiding, as long as it doesn't remove my rightfull grouping/soloing candies...which it does on Gaheris or EQ, EQ2 and WoW. I don't complain against the Hamidon raids in CoV...because they don't remove my candies. Remove my candies and give it away outside of grouping/soloing...and you will have problems with me. The reward does matter.
What larger gain is there then to sack the enemies captial city and then controling it for a certain amount of time? This no game has done.
Really, i'm not being rude, but your here now posting more and more to defend your style of gaming. You clearly don't want to play WAR so please do move on. --Rude On-- Go to a game where your guild can have the mechanics of a bosses AI down to a "T" so you can farm your pretty epic armor and glowing sword and then go hang out at a bank so you can show it off.
The people that don't like PvP are the ones who don't have the motor skills to be any good at it. Choke under the pressure.....
That was the best part of pvp in WoW for me Ganking that pally in his epic T1 raid gear with my pathetic pvp gear because he is only a raid player with no idea how to play his class unless he has 39 of his buddies behind him.
ok.... thats your favorite part? GOOD! now take away the 15 levels worth of stats he has in advantage over you, but him in exactly the same level of gear as you and now because he is such a poor player he will group with a larger number of people. Thus you get to use your skill to kill 15-30 people with just your group of 6.
This is pretty much what wound up happening in daoc.
as far as endgame.... i will say it again.
pve'rs will usually want statistical advancement through weaponry as motivation to do player vs enviornment. There is no statistical advancement of your charachter to be gained in the endgame, much less through player vs enviornment. therefore your motivation to pve is FUN.... (which is why you didnt have ninja looters in daoc but they run rampant in wow) and not gain.
Same as for the pvp rvr standpoint. You rvr for the fun and not for the gain. DAoC had rvr without gain for about a year, then they came out with realm abilities which helped you in pvp combat but you gained about a point per month and abilities would cost 4-7 points so you where pretty much just out there for the fun of it and to have your name on the leader board.
Its amazing to me how the player culture of daoc and wow differ, yet daoc and UO where similar. is it just that times have changed? or is it that the wow system started the "carrot on a stick" philosophy where people needed constant statistical rewards or be left behind as motivation to do anything in the game and not fun?
Youre' the staff writer? Sheesh.... Sometimes capitalize, sometimes not, sometimes puncuate, sometimes not.. Good God Man!
What larger gain is there then to sack the enemies captial city and then controling it for a certain amount of time? This no game has done. Really, i'm not being rude, but your here now posting more and more to defend your style of gaming. You clearly don't want to play WAR so please do move on. --Rude On-- Go to a game where your guild can have the mechanics of a bosses AI down to a "T" so you can farm your pretty epic armor and glowing sword and then go hang out at a bank so you can show it off. The people that don't like PvP are the ones who don't have the motor skills to be any good at it. Choke under the pressure.....
But you don't understand.
Like most peoples here, you want YOUR playstyle enforced on other. This is doomed to limited success or blatant failure, no matter what playstyle you pick. I don't mind if peoples get PvP-edges by doing PvP stuff, as long as in PvE these edges are pointless...anyway...explaining the basics over, and over, and over, and over again is tiresome. Having 1 overall system that crush all other gameplay style is doomed to failure unless you built a very casual game where all path lead to the same result.
I don't start my rethoric lately...I was there, before they purchase Warhammer franchise. Before Kunou switch to Mythic. I was discussing about how Imperator was great and how these devs understand everything.
Yet, they regress since...I wonder what happen to Imperator devs, these devs where understanding.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
What larger gain is there then to sack the enemies captial city and then controling it for a certain amount of time? This no game has done. Really, i'm not being rude, but your here now posting more and more to defend your style of gaming. You clearly don't want to play WAR so please do move on. --Rude On-- Go to a game where your guild can have the mechanics of a bosses AI down to a "T" so you can farm your pretty epic armor and glowing sword and then go hang out at a bank so you can show it off. The people that don't like PvP are the ones who don't have the motor skills to be any good at it. Choke under the pressure.....
But you don't understand.
Like most peoples here, you want YOUR playstyle enforced on other. This is doomed to limited success or blatant failure, no matter what playstyle you pick. I don't mind if peoples get PvP-edges by doing PvP stuff, as long as in PvE these edges are pointless...anyway...explaining the basics over, and over, and over, and over again is tiresome. Having 1 overall system that crush all other gameplay style is doomed to failure unless you built a very casual game where all path lead to the same result.
I don't start my rethoric lately...I was there, before they purchase Warhammer franchise. Before Kunou switch to Mythic. I was discussing about how Imperator was great and how these devs understand everything.
Yet, they regress since...I wonder what happen to Imperator devs, these devs where understanding.
I want my play style enforced on others? What is sam hell are you talking about? Its a pvp(rvr) game based on rvr. explaining the basics? You mean your idea of what the basics should be? I've been around a long time too man, since UO beta and have played almost every game since then. Games that somehow tried to implement Pvp and Pve at the same time most often catered to the Pve crowd. The only game that I can think of at the moment that catered to the PvP crowd was Shadowbane, which was a good game in concept, but had poor backing and was pushed out unfinished.
Now WAR comes around, and for people like myself, we finally are going to be given something we are waiting for. But for some reason since its not your play sytle, you feel the need to reiterate that point endlessly in this post.
Thats great, we get it you don't like WAR and probably won't play it. Fine....
BTW... Did you even watch the latest podcast video?
For all its worth, I am so lost what the OP's problem with WAR. Watch the quest podcast. If you dont want to sack the opposing realm's capital city then dont. And dont expect to be greatly rewarded because you are afraid to fight another player or players.
Anofayle you disagree with me when I state most pvers want rewards "candy" and statistical progression for end game pve.
then go on to say...
"
FUN is linked with GAIN for me. To think otherwise is to fool yourself. I won't play a game where the GAIN is not adequate; at least not for long. I am human, not good, not bad. I am selfish. I want to advance and to progress, which is why I play RPG. GAIN, PROGRESSION, ADVANCEMENTS, this is my very motivation to play these games (and also why I would never sell my stuff or toons in EQ no matter what, it destroy the very reason I was playing these games and making fun, having my level 65 chanter sitting on her accomplishment is the final result of my fun, to remove the final result isn't acceptable to me and would send me away quite fast). Ignoring this is just missing me as a player, for the better or the worst.
I may misunderstand you. But you disagree with me that pvers want statistical advancement in the endgame but then say you NEED statistical advancment (rewards/Gain) in order to do pve?
In anyway. Players along this mindset will not enjoy WAR , DAoC or Pirates of the Burning sea, as there is no statictical advancement in the endgame.... this is why its called the end game as the intent of their design teams.Warcraft, Everquest have these features though and may be better suited for yoru playstyle and needs.
your rewards for beating the other side ..... is beating the other side. There will be a website that keeps point totals, scores and team rankings, so there is always a race to be number 1, not because you get a special weapon, not because you get more points for your team per week to get more special weapons, no its just for bragging rights and cyber ego!
Thats a link to the daoc herald. thats the motivation daoc players have to RvR other than burning down keeps. When you take away the need for statistical gain you put less stress on the players which makes them have more fun. for instance, wow was more fun when you had world pvp. But since you get greater rewards for fighting inside of a BG instance, there is less action outside of the BG. Theres even less of a desire to pvp in the open world, because so many people spend time inside of pve instances (gaining rewards and statistical advancements) so this also puts a strain on the number of people out trying to have fun.
I am playing wow when I get home. I have to log on play 20-30 games with my arena team and then log off. I log on to play only for the points I get, the points I get I need because I have to have those points to buy rewards to have statistical advancement. without better stats I will get beat by other players who have better stats. I cant go and just have normal fun and spec a normal fun spec to have fun and roam around getting in random fights, I have to keep myself in line for myself and my team to get statistical advancement, even if it costs me fun I could be having.
This is why its a grind and not entertainment. This is why its like a part time job and not a hobby. This is why many people want what warhammer is selling and not what they are living with now in the mmorpg world. Some people want a change.
FUN is linked with GAIN for me. To think otherwise is to fool yourself. I won't play a game where the GAIN is not adequate; at least not for long. I am human, not good, not bad. I am selfish. I want to advance and to progress, which is why I play RPG. GAIN, PROGRESSION, ADVANCEMENTS, this is my very motivation to play these games (and also why I would never sell my stuff or toons in EQ no matter what, it destroy the very reason I was playing these games and making fun, having my level 65 chanter sitting on her accomplishment is the final result of my fun, to remove the final result isn't acceptable to me and would send me away quite fast). Ignoring this is just missing me as a player, for the better or the worst.
...
The candy matters a LOT to me. No candy, no Anofalye. The candy itself alone is useless, and pointless...but earning it, that is what matter. If I can't earn it, I won't play it. Why do you think I write 6k messages about raiding-lackness? Because they remove, unjustly, my rightfull candy...I can't care less if there is or no raiding, as long as it doesn't remove my rightfull grouping/soloing candies...which it does on Gaheris or EQ, EQ2 and WoW. I don't complain against the Hamidon raids in CoV...because they don't remove my candies. Remove my candies and give it away outside of grouping/soloing...and you will have problems with me. The reward does matter.
You're running up against one of the WAR design team's guiding philosophies: "We have this obsession with 'Don't you have to appeal to all these different game styles?' And in short, no, you don't." (Paul Barnett)
Since we're talking motivation and play style, I'm going to throw in some comments based on one of the most popular tests for gamers, the Bartle Test for Gamer Psychology.
What you said is a solid description of one of four identified gamer motivations, the Achiever (A) - people for whom fun is linked to collecting points, levels, treasure and achieving accomplishments that set them apart from other players - or that present challenges. While most people have a little achiever in them, most are also inspired by one of the other three primary motivators first. Achiever is my lowest motivation.
There are people like me, Explorers (E), who are primarily motivated by the immersion of the experience, by the environment itself (the unique places, things and creatures we find). In wow I used an addon to carefully collect the text of every book I found, and took special pride in my ability to lead people to hidden vendors and great locations for guild events.
There are Killers (K), motivated by the thrill and challenge of the contest against an intelligent and adaptable opponent.
There are Socializers (S), motivated by forming and operating organizations and events, interacting with people, developing ways for small teams to achieve things thought possible only for larger/higher level groups.
Fun isn't linked to gain for me - and I'm not fooling myself. I'm an ESKA rating relatively high in everything except achiever. I'm a scored with a 13.33% in achievement desire out of a potential 100%. When I played WoW, I despised rested xp - it literally had me cussing at times. It leveled me when I didn't want to level. I avoided killing anything that could give me xp that I didn't absolutely have to kill. I liked to get a look at every corner and cranny, talk to every npc, locate all the hidden places and people and creatures, and cram in every quest I could before I leveled. I wore stuff that I liked, not the loot with the highest stats. I constantly gave away new loot to folks in my guilds. I wrote marching chants, I did Troll standup comedy in the bars. I hunted and I killed enemy players. But I never went after stuff, score, experience - it's just not on my fun radar.
Recent MMOs really haven't catered to my primary motivator - they've catered to the achievers. They've given you everything you want, while reducing the size of zones, craming stuff together to limit time needed for walking, removing unnecessary space - the stuff I like.
The point is, WAR doesn't have to appeal to everyone. The design isn't perfect for me - I prefer more space with encounters and content more widely scattered. But the game doesn't have to be everything to everyone. It just has to do what it does really well, and have a strong appeal for at least one of those motivators. If the game fits you, great. If it doesn't, there are plenty of games for Achievers - you won't be at a loss for something to play. I'm betting that this game will appeal to a LOT of Killers and a LOT of Socializers, and probably have a strong draw for anyone who isn't primarily an Achiever. Me, I'll kill, conquer territory, form regiments and combat teams, find ways to do things with small groups that other people think should take more, explore all the hidden places, and have a burning-inferno of a lot of fun.
Edit:
Originally posted by Anofalye I don't start my rethoric lately...I was there, before they purchase Warhammer franchise. Before Kunou switch to Mythic. I was discussing about how Imperator was great and how these devs understand everything. Yet, they regress since...I wonder what happen to Imperator devs, these devs where understanding.
It's mostly the same devs, doing just as good a job as before. With Imperator, they were designing a PvE game, and doing a great job. Now they're designing an RvR game, and doing a great job.
I wonder if this would be a good topic for an editorial?
this game will be culture shock for people who played wow for 2 years. The wow types just cant seem to fathom that you wont be bored if you dont have a "carrot on a stick" dangeled in front of you. you can have fun without having to work towards a statistical gain. I cant see any wow true fans leaving wow for war though, the games are just too vastly seperated in philosophy. Why would you leave a game where you are 200 points worth of stats higher than everyone else, win every fight you get in because you have tier 6.... to play a game where you are equal power as everyone else and will lose 50% of your fights?
Comments
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
While I'm not really a PVE guy, I realize that we all have our preferences and I too hope there will be some kind of harmony between the 2 communities in WAR.
People going : Oh my! i heard a rumor that the game's PVE won't challenge my IQ enuf - are just plain silly. Buy the game, play the game, and then go OH MY!, if you will still feel justified to, don't just base your decision on the random scenarios that pop in yer brain or the conclusions of the folk that are having fun chatting about it.
I heard that in 2047 there will be an MMORPG released that won't have TIER7 armor! I won't play the darn thing because i wanna enter the Guiness Book by being the first person ever to own 1 of those sets!
Edit : (while still browsing through the posts)
My eyes hurt from all the whining! Can most PVErs be more selfish?
: So you'd like to ruin this game as well by making Mythic compromise to appeal to everyone ?
Another thought, another Edit :
We shouldn't look down on one another just for being more into some aspects of the game than others, this debate became more about "who's right" than the game itself, and we may all be wrong when making premature asumptions.
the conclusion :
hardcore PVErs should give up on trying to achieve world domination by just spending more time fighting AI controlled monsters than others - because it just shows you're snobs.
and pure PVPrs are in for a suprise too as this won't be your tipical : Get to chain grief other players type-o game since it doesn't advertise pure chaotic pvp, and yes there won't be any corpses lieing around to camp.
Here's to WAR
Alot of people are turned off PvP, because they dont want to ridicule by people that beat them. Its a game, it is not like people are going to show up at your job and yell, "Look at Joe, I so PWN Him!!!1111!!!
Um, actualy yes you can and WAR will. The end game PvE in WAR will be the public quest system. You enter a zone with a public quest going, no need to form a large raid group, no need to schedule ahead of time with 39 of your guildies, you just start aiding in whatever step the quest is on. Everyone in the zone who takes part in completing quest objectives will get credit towards competing the quest and once all the steps are done, everyone who helped gets a share of the loot based on their contribution. It also helps your side in RvR so that PvE can play a role in furthing the cause along with PvP.
No, it's aimed at RvR and WAHHRRRRRR!
The guys that build the tank are just as useful as the guys who drive it. And the guy who fights the enemy NPCs is just as useful as the guy who fights the enemy PCs.
To date the public doesn’t know a whole lot information about certain aspects of this game. It is a wait and see game right now. Heck, by watching the Quest Podcast with Paul, he could sell the game to any PvE centric person or any person for that matter.
I play WoW, and the way he mentions how annoying it is to kill a bear and it not drop a bear paw is just so true... I hate drop quests in WoW that aren't 100%, I've just finished a quest with a very poor drop rate, and the fact that I completed it made reality dawn on me "why am I wasting my life?!"... but I quickly shrugged that off.
PvE and PvP both need to be done correctly, any other WoW-type game may kill the MMORPG genre as people will soon realise just how much a waste of time it is to run to dead ends in game. Thankfully, WAR promises none of this nonsense which are in most current MMOG's, which is why I'm looking forward to it.
It's time to end "end-game".
-iCeh
Um, actualy yes you can and WAR will. The end game PvE in WAR will be the public quest system. You enter a zone with a public quest going, no need to form a large raid group, no need to schedule ahead of time with 39 of your guildies, you just start aiding in whatever step the quest is on. Everyone in the zone who takes part in completing quest objectives will get credit towards competing the quest and once all the steps are done, everyone who helped gets a share of the loot based on their contribution. It also helps your side in RvR so that PvE can play a role in furthing the cause along with PvP.
That it is -NOT- an end game activity that is simply a "grouping mechanism" that automatically puts everyone in the zone on the same team. Public Quest System, as been stated in multiple sources, is a tool that will be utilized throughout our leveling careers
Endgame is the anomaly we all face at the end of the level grind in which skill based games tend to avoid because the goal isn't reaching max level cap. In a Level based system, you most assuredly must provide a level cap that way at some point along the treadmill- friends can team together at some point along their careers. Everquest 1 initiated end game with high level dungeons allowing all their customers that reached the "end game" to team together. And this is what this topic is about. The original poster knows WAR must have an "End game" and he is requesting information about "Which" high level content this game will have. We already know "public quest system" will be utilized throughout our leveling careers so its not what we're talking bout here
For instance, in City of Heroes the "endgame" is raiding/farming the LRSF / Hamidon raids for the best enhancements in the game. Like WoW, pvpers are forced to raid endgame content for the best loot (not sure if WoW:TBC ever resolved this issue)
what you refer to is the "Public Quest System" which is merely a grouping mechanism that WAR will utilize to organize players onto teams. But that does not tell the OP anything at all- he must assuredly already knows WAR will have that. They've released many videos about that months ago. He wants to know "what" PvE end game WAR will have (dungeons, etc). So will he be chopping trees, mining minerals, and cooking the frontline soldiers dinner at "end game"? This is the loaded question the OP is asking. At which point will he be performing a repetitive activity because at some point- a pve'er will most assuredly run out of content
Wasn't sure if you did not understand what "end game" meant by your post so thought I should elaborate
Has there been any elaboration of activities for max level characters other than RvR and City Sieges?
Has there been any elaboration anywhere in regards to loot systems (Other than high end loot will be found in capitals)?
Don't lose faith Anofalye. Like others have said, raids may simply be like the final stage of a Public Quest chain. A mega boss to be taken down by groups of other players all engaged in the same Public Quest. By which the reward received is due to your characters influence on the quest giver (In other words, how much of this quest line did you do already?) and the amount of participation you had to kill the final boss.
Or as others had said, there will be raids, and the Public Quest system is simply a new quest tool for players.
Has anyone read or heard ofiicially about raiding PvE areas yet in WAR?
I haven't heard much of these topics in my newsletter, interviews, etc.
As far as loot systems, all I can recall is that loot from city capitals will be highly desirable and that players will be able to loot other players, but the loot will be randomized as if they were in PvE. So no one will lose their gear, even in PvP.
So , as far as I can tell, there will be no major advantage too loot tables for PvE vs. PvP gaming players0except when it comes to city capitals. The rest is speculation.
If I were part of the design team, I would consider tougher public quests in PvE areas for the city capital areas. the PvE quests could release a big hero or machine to help conquer the city ( helping PvPers) and PvE players get rewards from quest giver. Likewise when the high elves own the dark elf city, the shamed dark elf PvE area could initiate a public quest series to allow the players a chance to reclaim their fallen city..
While I'm not really a PVE guy, I realize that we all have our preferences and I too hope there will be some kind of harmony between the 2 communities in WAR.That was the best part of pvp in WoW for me
ok.... thats your favorite part? GOOD! now take away the 15 levels worth of stats he has in advantage over you, but him in exactly the same level of gear as you and now because he is such a poor player he will group with a larger number of people. Thus you get to use your skill to kill 15-30 people with just your group of 6.
This is pretty much what wound up happening in daoc.
as far as endgame.... i will say it again.
pve'rs will usually want statistical advancement through weaponry as motivation to do player vs enviornment. There is no statistical advancement of your charachter to be gained in the endgame, much less through player vs enviornment. therefore your motivation to pve is FUN.... (which is why you didnt have ninja looters in daoc but they run rampant in wow) and not gain.
Same as for the pvp rvr standpoint. You rvr for the fun and not for the gain. DAoC had rvr without gain for about a year, then they came out with realm abilities which helped you in pvp combat but you gained about a point per month and abilities would cost 4-7 points so you where pretty much just out there for the fun of it and to have your name on the leader board.
Its amazing to me how the player culture of daoc and wow differ, yet daoc and UO where similar. is it just that times have changed? or is it that the wow system started the "carrot on a stick" philosophy where people needed constant statistical rewards or be left behind as motivation to do anything in the game and not fun?
I'm looking forward to Mythics Warhammer quite a bit now I suppose, even though I too am disappointed by the back seat PvE seems to take. I'm sure it will do well and probably be a lot of fun to play. However, I just don't see enough longevity and depth without a solid PvE game to hold my interest. Hopefully I'm wrong.
I don't know if you remember: http://www.gamestats.com/objects/573/573062/index.html this at all, but I was following it religiously while it was in development. The Warhammer universe is so rich in lore & style, but unfortunately I don't see a lot of that shining through in a primarily RvR environment. I really would have loved to see how this one turned out.
(Not to mention I really liked the gritty look of the original "Warhammer Online" much more).
For instance, in City of Heroes the "endgame" is raiding/farming the LRSF / Hamidon raids for the best enhancements in the game. Like WoW, pvpers are forced to raid endgame content for the best loot (not sure if WoW:TBC ever resolved this issue)
You just answer yourself with 1 example of endgame without involving raiding in anyway. You can have PvE-endgame without raiding, as you clearly demonstrated.
In red, you contradict yourself partially. Yes PvPers are forced to PvE and this is bad. However, they are not forced to raid anymore then I am, they can group in the RSF or the STF. I agree, they shouldn't be forced to PvE, anymore then a game should force me to raid or PvP.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I would disagree.
The main reason DAoC was ninja-looter free was the superior looting tools. Ninja looting in DAoC was clearly difficult at least.
FUN is linked with GAIN for me. To think otherwise is to fool yourself. I won't play a game where the GAIN is not adequate; at least not for long. I am human, not good, not bad. I am selfish. I want to advance and to progress, which is why I play RPG. GAIN, PROGRESSION, ADVANCEMENTS, this is my very motivation to play these games (and also why I would never sell my stuff or toons in EQ no matter what, it destroy the very reason I was playing these games and making fun, having my level 65 chanter sitting on her accomplishment is the final result of my fun, to remove the final result isn't acceptable to me and would send me away quite fast). Ignoring this is just missing me as a player, for the better or the worst.
See, to fight the computer, a lowly AI that is designed in such a way that I can feel at home and comfortable. To fight it over and over and over again...why do you think I do so? I do it to PROGRESS. Solo/group-wise, but to progress nonetheless.
The candy matters a LOT to me. No candy, no Anofalye. The candy itself alone is useless, and pointless...but earning it, that is what matter. If I can't earn it, I won't play it. Why do you think I write 6k messages about raiding-lackness? Because they remove, unjustly, my rightfull candy...I can't care less if there is or no raiding, as long as it doesn't remove my rightfull grouping/soloing candies...which it does on Gaheris or EQ, EQ2 and WoW. I don't complain against the Hamidon raids in CoV...because they don't remove my candies. Remove my candies and give it away outside of grouping/soloing...and you will have problems with me. The reward does matter.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I would disagree.
The main reason DAoC was ninja-looter free was the superior looting tools. Ninja looting in DAoC was clearly difficult at least.
FUN is linked with GAIN for me. To think otherwise is to fool yourself. I won't play a game where the GAIN is not adequate; at least not for long. I am human, not good, not bad. I am selfish. I want to advance and to progress, which is why I play RPG. GAIN, PROGRESSION, ADVANCEMENTS, this is my very motivation to play these games. Ignoring this is just missing me as a player, for the better or the worst.
See, to fight the computer, a lowly AI that is designed in such a way that I can feel at home and comfortable. To fight it over and over and over again...why do you think I do so? I do it to PROGRESS. Solo/group-wise, but to progress nonetheless.
The candy matters a LOT to me. No candy, no Anofalye. The candy itself alone is useless, and pointless...but earning it, that is what matter. If I can't earn it, I won't play it. Why do you think I write 6k messages about raiding-lackness? Because they remove, unjustly, my rightfull candy...I can't care less if there is or no raiding, as long as it doesn't remove my rightfull grouping/soloing candies...which it does on Gaheris or EQ, EQ2 and WoW. I don't complain against the Hamidon raids in CoV...because they don't remove my candies. Remove my candies and give it away outside of grouping/soloing...and you will have problems with me. The reward does matter.
What larger gain is there then to sack the enemies captial city and then controling it for a certain amount of time? This no game has done.
Really, i'm not being rude, but your here now posting more and more to defend your style of gaming. You clearly don't want to play WAR so please do move on. --Rude On-- Go to a game where your guild can have the mechanics of a bosses AI down to a "T" so you can farm your pretty epic armor and glowing sword and then go hang out at a bank so you can show it off.
The people that don't like PvP are the ones who don't have the motor skills to be any good at it. Choke under the pressure.....
ok.... thats your favorite part? GOOD! now take away the 15 levels worth of stats he has in advantage over you, but him in exactly the same level of gear as you and now because he is such a poor player he will group with a larger number of people. Thus you get to use your skill to kill 15-30 people with just your group of 6.
This is pretty much what wound up happening in daoc.
as far as endgame.... i will say it again.
pve'rs will usually want statistical advancement through weaponry as motivation to do player vs enviornment. There is no statistical advancement of your charachter to be gained in the endgame, much less through player vs enviornment. therefore your motivation to pve is FUN.... (which is why you didnt have ninja looters in daoc but they run rampant in wow) and not gain.
Same as for the pvp rvr standpoint. You rvr for the fun and not for the gain. DAoC had rvr without gain for about a year, then they came out with realm abilities which helped you in pvp combat but you gained about a point per month and abilities would cost 4-7 points so you where pretty much just out there for the fun of it and to have your name on the leader board.
Its amazing to me how the player culture of daoc and wow differ, yet daoc and UO where similar. is it just that times have changed? or is it that the wow system started the "carrot on a stick" philosophy where people needed constant statistical rewards or be left behind as motivation to do anything in the game and not fun?
Youre' the staff writer? Sheesh.... Sometimes capitalize, sometimes not, sometimes puncuate, sometimes not.. Good God Man!
But you don't understand.
Like most peoples here, you want YOUR playstyle enforced on other. This is doomed to limited success or blatant failure, no matter what playstyle you pick. I don't mind if peoples get PvP-edges by doing PvP stuff, as long as in PvE these edges are pointless...anyway...explaining the basics over, and over, and over, and over again is tiresome. Having 1 overall system that crush all other gameplay style is doomed to failure unless you built a very casual game where all path lead to the same result.
I don't start my rethoric lately...I was there, before they purchase Warhammer franchise. Before Kunou switch to Mythic. I was discussing about how Imperator was great and how these devs understand everything.
Yet, they regress since...I wonder what happen to Imperator devs, these devs where understanding.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
But you don't understand.
Like most peoples here, you want YOUR playstyle enforced on other. This is doomed to limited success or blatant failure, no matter what playstyle you pick. I don't mind if peoples get PvP-edges by doing PvP stuff, as long as in PvE these edges are pointless...anyway...explaining the basics over, and over, and over, and over again is tiresome. Having 1 overall system that crush all other gameplay style is doomed to failure unless you built a very casual game where all path lead to the same result.
I don't start my rethoric lately...I was there, before they purchase Warhammer franchise. Before Kunou switch to Mythic. I was discussing about how Imperator was great and how these devs understand everything.
Yet, they regress since...I wonder what happen to Imperator devs, these devs where understanding.
I want my play style enforced on others? What is sam hell are you talking about? Its a pvp(rvr) game based on rvr. explaining the basics? You mean your idea of what the basics should be? I've been around a long time too man, since UO beta and have played almost every game since then. Games that somehow tried to implement Pvp and Pve at the same time most often catered to the Pve crowd. The only game that I can think of at the moment that catered to the PvP crowd was Shadowbane, which was a good game in concept, but had poor backing and was pushed out unfinished.
Now WAR comes around, and for people like myself, we finally are going to be given something we are waiting for. But for some reason since its not your play sytle, you feel the need to reiterate that point endlessly in this post.
Thats great, we get it you don't like WAR and probably won't play it. Fine....
BTW... Did you even watch the latest podcast video?
Anofayle you disagree with me when I state most pvers want rewards "candy" and statistical progression for end game pve.
then go on to say...
"
FUN is linked with GAIN for me. To think otherwise is to fool yourself. I won't play a game where the GAIN is not adequate; at least not for long. I am human, not good, not bad. I am selfish. I want to advance and to progress, which is why I play RPG. GAIN, PROGRESSION, ADVANCEMENTS, this is my very motivation to play these games (and also why I would never sell my stuff or toons in EQ no matter what, it destroy the very reason I was playing these games and making fun, having my level 65 chanter sitting on her accomplishment is the final result of my fun, to remove the final result isn't acceptable to me and would send me away quite fast). Ignoring this is just missing me as a player, for the better or the worst.
I may misunderstand you. But you disagree with me that pvers want statistical advancement in the endgame but then say you NEED statistical advancment (rewards/Gain) in order to do pve?
In anyway. Players along this mindset will not enjoy WAR , DAoC or Pirates of the Burning sea, as there is no statictical advancement in the endgame.... this is why its called the end game as the intent of their design teams.Warcraft, Everquest have these features though and may be better suited for yoru playstyle and needs.
your rewards for beating the other side ..... is beating the other side. There will be a website that keeps point totals, scores and team rankings, so there is always a race to be number 1, not because you get a special weapon, not because you get more points for your team per week to get more special weapons, no its just for bragging rights and cyber ego!
http://guilds.camelotherald.com/realms/index.php?server=Gareth&realm=&v=&t=weekchampions
Thats a link to the daoc herald. thats the motivation daoc players have to RvR other than burning down keeps. When you take away the need for statistical gain you put less stress on the players which makes them have more fun. for instance, wow was more fun when you had world pvp. But since you get greater rewards for fighting inside of a BG instance, there is less action outside of the BG. Theres even less of a desire to pvp in the open world, because so many people spend time inside of pve instances (gaining rewards and statistical advancements) so this also puts a strain on the number of people out trying to have fun.
I am playing wow when I get home. I have to log on play 20-30 games with my arena team and then log off. I log on to play only for the points I get, the points I get I need because I have to have those points to buy rewards to have statistical advancement. without better stats I will get beat by other players who have better stats. I cant go and just have normal fun and spec a normal fun spec to have fun and roam around getting in random fights, I have to keep myself in line for myself and my team to get statistical advancement, even if it costs me fun I could be having.
This is why its a grind and not entertainment. This is why its like a part time job and not a hobby. This is why many people want what warhammer is selling and not what they are living with now in the mmorpg world. Some people want a change.
-Hasani-
You're running up against one of the WAR design team's guiding philosophies: "We have this obsession with 'Don't you have to appeal to all these different game styles?' And in short, no, you don't." (Paul Barnett)
Since we're talking motivation and play style, I'm going to throw in some comments based on one of the most popular tests for gamers, the Bartle Test for Gamer Psychology.
What you said is a solid description of one of four identified gamer motivations, the Achiever (A) - people for whom fun is linked to collecting points, levels, treasure and achieving accomplishments that set them apart from other players - or that present challenges. While most people have a little achiever in them, most are also inspired by one of the other three primary motivators first. Achiever is my lowest motivation.
There are people like me, Explorers (E), who are primarily motivated by the immersion of the experience, by the environment itself (the unique places, things and creatures we find). In wow I used an addon to carefully collect the text of every book I found, and took special pride in my ability to lead people to hidden vendors and great locations for guild events.
There are Killers (K), motivated by the thrill and challenge of the contest against an intelligent and adaptable opponent.
There are Socializers (S), motivated by forming and operating organizations and events, interacting with people, developing ways for small teams to achieve things thought possible only for larger/higher level groups.
Fun isn't linked to gain for me - and I'm not fooling myself. I'm an ESKA rating relatively high in everything except achiever. I'm a scored with a 13.33% in achievement desire out of a potential 100%. When I played WoW, I despised rested xp - it literally had me cussing at times. It leveled me when I didn't want to level. I avoided killing anything that could give me xp that I didn't absolutely have to kill. I liked to get a look at every corner and cranny, talk to every npc, locate all the hidden places and people and creatures, and cram in every quest I could before I leveled. I wore stuff that I liked, not the loot with the highest stats. I constantly gave away new loot to folks in my guilds. I wrote marching chants, I did Troll standup comedy in the bars. I hunted and I killed enemy players. But I never went after stuff, score, experience - it's just not on my fun radar.
Recent MMOs really haven't catered to my primary motivator - they've catered to the achievers. They've given you everything you want, while reducing the size of zones, craming stuff together to limit time needed for walking, removing unnecessary space - the stuff I like.
The point is, WAR doesn't have to appeal to everyone. The design isn't perfect for me - I prefer more space with encounters and content more widely scattered. But the game doesn't have to be everything to everyone. It just has to do what it does really well, and have a strong appeal for at least one of those motivators. If the game fits you, great. If it doesn't, there are plenty of games for Achievers - you won't be at a loss for something to play. I'm betting that this game will appeal to a LOT of Killers and a LOT of Socializers, and probably have a strong draw for anyone who isn't primarily an Achiever. Me, I'll kill, conquer territory, form regiments and combat teams, find ways to do things with small groups that other people think should take more, explore all the hidden places, and have a burning-inferno of a lot of fun.
Edit:
It's mostly the same devs, doing just as good a job as before. With Imperator, they were designing a PvE game, and doing a great job. Now they're designing an RvR game, and doing a great job.
I wonder if this would be a good topic for an editorial?
this game will be culture shock for people who played wow for 2 years. The wow types just cant seem to fathom that you wont be bored if you dont have a "carrot on a stick" dangeled in front of you. you can have fun without having to work towards a statistical gain. I cant see any wow true fans leaving wow for war though, the games are just too vastly seperated in philosophy. Why would you leave a game where you are 200 points worth of stats higher than everyone else, win every fight you get in because you have tier 6.... to play a game where you are equal power as everyone else and will lose 50% of your fights?