Originally posted by Die_Scream Did you report him for saying he didn't know what you are talking about? Its called a figure of speech. Man, you've lost it seabass, seriously, way to waste mods time.
Heh. Don't worry about it. Seabass says stuff like that to me all the time. I don't think he likes me. At any rate, Seabass, it was indeed a figure of speech meaning I can't understand why some people here are talking about the breadth and depth of content being so great when I saw very little, compared to other games. Granted, the game itself isn't bad, I had a good time, and I love LOTR. I can see myself going back to it in a few months. But right now, no.
Alas.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Did you report him for saying he didn't know what you are talking about? Its called a figure of speech. Man, you've lost it seabass, seriously, way to waste mods time.
Heh. Don't worry about it. Seabass says stuff like that to me all the time. I don't think he likes me. At any rate, Seabass, it was indeed a figure of speech meaning I can't understand why some people here are talking about the breadth and depth of content being so great when I saw very little, compared to other games. Granted, the game itself isn't bad, I had a good time, and I love LOTR. I can see myself going back to it in a few months. But right now, no.
Alas.
Well that boils down to personal perspective. You didn't see much in it. Others do. Neither one is right or wrong. It's all subjective.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
well at least there you will find people that play the game and has a valid opinion.
Discuss a subject with someone that don't play the game it's hard.
So only a paying player has a valid opinion? With that ridiculous thought you just gave everyone the very definition of 'fanboy'.
As for Mike, I am not saying it is not a good thing that turbine is doing, or of note at least. turbine, as I said in this thread, has a history of shipping well crafted content and supplementing it after launch. Being a part of the LotRO community for some time pre-launch they where clear about their development goal of shipping the game with a very complete and very well crafted start and adding more content later. is this a good thing, I suppose. Is it praise worthy - perhaps. But is it some altruistic free gift as the OP and others suggest - not hardly. Consider other subscription products - like magazines. Each month you get a completely new magazine but nobody would say it is free by any stretch. Turbine opted with LotRO to do what they did with DDO and ship a smaller amount of very well finished content and supplement it later - again it is their MO. Just because they are now following through on what they said they would do all along doesn't make it very unusual, very praiseworthy (although refreshing in a way), and certainly doesn't make it free. Your logic on the pay system is just flawed. People re-buy LotRO (or any sub based MMO) each month when thier previous 30 day sub expires. In this case turbine is offering a carrot of new content to get people to re-buy but they are simply and factually not giving anything away for free. I seriously cannot believe you even argue this, I mean while you wail on me for being some monumental basher nothing I have said here, and little I have said elsewhere really qualifies as such. It is you, and other fanboys like you, insistence on pouncing on any comment that doesn't radiate incredible praise as being a complete slam that is ridiculous and immature as evidenced by your sides insistence that those who disagree not voice their opinion. It is quite easy to spot the weaker side in any argument as it is always the ones who criticize the fact that there is an argument.
Ok I'll Bite, how can someone who does not play the game, has not played the game in months, and in fact whose only source of information about the game seems to be second hand opinion from other people who may not play the game either have a valid opinion? Don't you have to have some actual facts/information/experience about the current state of something to judge it with any validness? Thats kinda like saying I saw the original Star Trek series and loved / hated it thus all the other Star Trek series (deep space nine, next generation etc etc) are just as great / terrible even though I have not ever watched any of them. Valid opinion there? I'd say not (apologies for the geeky example but its what popped into my head first )
As to free vs paying for the expansions compare LoTRO to other MMORPG's not to magazines etc. (apples to apples not apples to oranges) Is EQ2's next expansion free (Ruins of Kunrak <sp?>), No. Is WoW's next expansion free? No. Humm so ok most of the Big MMORPG's are asking you to pay them extra (ie more then your monthly sub fee) for their expansions and the ability to progress. In comparison to this I would have to yes LoTRO's major expansions are free. In fact nowhere have I seen that paying any MMO's monthly sub fee entitles one to anything more then basic bug fixes and the ability to keep play the game. SO your point that paying monthly fees equals paying for the expansion doesn't fly. Paying monthly fees by any MMO's deffinentions that I've seen merely means you are paying to continue playing, using up server bandwith and whatever memory storage that goes with it.
If your comparing LoTRO vs another MMORPG that currently exists then I'd love to here about it. If on the other hand your just comparing LoTRO vs some imagined image of a perfect MMORPG in your head then I'd say your arguement is not based in reality. Is LoTRO perfect? Sadly no, it suffers from some of the same flaws of many other MMORPG's, Does it try and improve upon other MMORPG's? I'd say yes and for several it does, for others it doesn't (simple fact you can't make everyone happy. ie make the harcore 40 man raiders happy and the casuals will be upset, make the PVP gankers happy, and the carebears will not like it etc.)
Can we hope MMO's will improve in the future yes, but I think most people will agree it will be from the constructive critiques using factual current first hand knowledge, rather then the "I heard ABC on the web from strangeguyX thus your game suxxors" (I think alot of us are guilty of this at one point or another) Note Agent smith I know your not saying LoTRO blows etc, but you do seem to have alot of negative coments / opinioons about a game you don't and have not played from what seems to be some time (since what free beta?) . Also not saying you can't post any opinions you have, or that you should somehow forgive LoTRO for not being what you wanted when you played it in beta. Still Say you hate Billy Thompson because in preschool he hit you with a baseball, and now 26 years later you run into him again and find you work in the same office and say you still hate him, seems kinda silly. (Forgive the wild examples if you will but i think you get my point )
Originally posted by WSIMike Originally posted by Leodious
Originally posted by Die_Scream Did you report him for saying he didn't know what you are talking about? Its called a figure of speech. Man, you've lost it seabass, seriously, way to waste mods time.
Heh. Don't worry about it. Seabass says stuff like that to me all the time. I don't think he likes me. At any rate, Seabass, it was indeed a figure of speech meaning I can't understand why some people here are talking about the breadth and depth of content being so great when I saw very little, compared to other games. Granted, the game itself isn't bad, I had a good time, and I love LOTR. I can see myself going back to it in a few months. But right now, no.
Alas.
Well that boils down to personal perspective. You didn't see much in it. Others do. Neither one is right or wrong. It's all subjective.
I believe that is what I said...
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
It's too bad people just don't leave a game be for others to enjoy and go find a game they like to play themselves.
Word.
What is really 'too bad' is that fans who say they love a game so much feel it is necessary to stifle people on a gaming website from discussing games. Seems to me if you fanboys love the game so much you should be spending yoru time playing it and not spend yoru time browsing a general MMO website, I know if I had an MMO I was interested in playing now I would be playing it and not browsing this site discussing MMOs in general. I certainly would never come to a gaming site and tell people they shouldn't be talking about games as that would be pretty stupid.
Hehe truth do tell I don't think anyone is "stiffling" you. In fact you have said it again and again you wouldn't even be posting if there were no fans to rage against. (OMG their hyping the game, they must eat crow! sound familiar?) As if you would post your opinions here if everyone agreed with you or if there were no fans of the game to challenge wits with. You live off the attention your posts get you here IMO. Surely DnL is a much bigger disappointment of a game and you could post there and everyone would agree, but yet you don't ( I admit I find a good debate interesting at times.) The whole "I'm a innocent victom that people are trying to repress" role does not suit you.
Tell the truth, as you yourself pointed out there IS no MMO you currently like, Thus your taking your disappointment and frustrations out by bashing LoTRO (the most recent MMORPG that hasn't lived up to your expectations?) Perhaps you do it in hopes you can make others feel just as sad and upset as you? (misery loves company, if you can't be happy with it why should anyone else right?) Surely you don't believe you do it to make anyone else here happier, People are strange like that, but the worst ones (IMO) are always the ones that think they are doing it to help others.
Also there are people who play who have negative comments but are constructive and trying to help with critisism. I have yet to see you post about how to make the game better. If you have then I have overlooked it. Also I never said positive opinions are the only valid ones, you surmised incorrectly.
The 'constructive criticism' thing is a red herring. It is not incumbent on anyone to have an idea for improvement in order to offer a criticism. That said, I did not even offer a criticism of LotRO, just a criticism of the OP.
Back on topic a sec, my opinion is that you pay to use their game monthy at $15, whether they add content or not. So when they do add content, I'm still paying $15 regardless, therefore, I consider the additions to be free content.
My $15 sub fee goes to salary, keeping the lights on and the hamsters running on the wheels. If I log in one day, and a whole new zone, skills, and upgrades have been added to the game, I don't take out my credit card so I can enjoy it, I see that as free content. I was paying $15 a month to play those 5 zones today, and after a patch I'm paying $15 to play the 7 zones tomorrow.
The way i look at it, the two added zones didn't cost me anything more than the original 5 did, ergo, free.
So do you, like Jackdog, claim that LOTRO has sold a million or more copies? Cause if you read the "172k" thread Jackdog, one of the ones I would classify as a fanboi, is saying he believes millions of people are playing. His reasons are pretty flimsy but the claim is there nonetheless. If people are free to continually make wild claims about how successful a game is then imo its fair others to call them on it.
Nope, not in the least. Because it can't be verified what the the # is that has sold. I think I've pointed out quite clearly all the unverified statements made by AgtSmith in the 172k thread. I also think I've done a pretty fair job of backing up anything I say as something other than my opinion with actual links to prove that I'm not just talking to increase my post count.
That was the main problem that many of us (who could really care less if the # sold is 1 or 10 million) with AgtSmith in not only this thread but also the 172k thread.
When asked to backup assumptions, and statements of "typically", "usually", "since we all know", etc. There is either silence or the topic at hand is changed. If someone wants to just voice their opinion... go ahead and post away... everyone's entitled as long as they stay within the rules of the board.
However, when those preceding words are used to qualify your statement, making it look like you are speaking for more players or trying to represent a player group.... Well, that's where you'll have to back it up with some proof.
Haven't got the proof? Well, then don't be surprised if people just call you a "hate-boy" or "troll" and tell you to go post somewhere else. Remember, it's not the personal opinion that's the problem... it's trying to come off as some expert on the subject without anything to back it up that's the problem.
Take this very topic for example:
The OP says he thinks that's great that Turbine has released 2 Free Content Updates in 4 Months. ( I do agree that he should have stayed away from the second statement... not sure if that is true or not).
What happens? He gets jumped by AgtSmith (and a couple others) basically saying that LoTRo is a P2P game and by it's very definition nothing can ever be free. LOL!
Nevermind the fact that many, many gaming web sites call them free updates as well. See... if you get additional content (not bug fixes) that you don't have to pay for... it's considered free content. Not to be confused with Expansion Packs that are NOT usually free. (See below for links to gaming websites that also called it free)
As a side "quest" I challenge any of you saying these are not free updates to find 3 web site articles that agree with you... not posts in forums, but 3 actual articles like I've provided below.
Yes, we all know the game costs money to buy initially... the same as all P2P MMO's. (Heh, well there are some exceptions for older MMOs, especially in the Asian market).
Yes, we all know that unless you're a Lifetime member there is a monthly fee... the same as all P2P MMO's
The distinction (shared by a number of gaming websites) is that this was additional game-play that players didn't have to purchase... or another way to say it is... free content. (See below for links to gaming websites that also called it free)
Here are the links for other web sites that called the content free:
Enough? Because there are a lot more. Just wanting to show... it's not just the OP calling it free, in fact it's tough to find a site that isn't calling it free.
Did you report him for saying he didn't know what you are talking about? Its called a figure of speech. Man, you've lost it seabass, seriously, way to waste mods time.
Heh. Don't worry about it. Seabass says stuff like that to me all the time. I don't think he likes me. At any rate, Seabass, it was indeed a figure of speech meaning I can't understand why some people here are talking about the breadth and depth of content being so great when I saw very little, compared to other games. Granted, the game itself isn't bad, I had a good time, and I love LOTR. I can see myself going back to it in a few months. But right now, no.
Alas.
Well that boils down to personal perspective. You didn't see much in it. Others do. Neither one is right or wrong. It's all subjective.
I believe that is what I said...
Cool.
Then we agree
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
So do you, like Jackdog, claim that LOTRO has sold a million or more copies? Cause if you read the "172k" thread Jackdog, one of the ones I would classify as a fanboi, is saying he believes millions of people are playing. His reasons are pretty flimsy but the claim is there nonetheless. If people are free to continually make wild claims about how successful a game is then imo its fair others to call them on it.
Nope, not in the least. Because it can't be verified what the the # is that has sold. I think I've pointed out quite clearly all the unverified statements made by AgtSmith in the 172k thread. I also think I've done a pretty fair job of backing up anything I say as something other than my opinion with actual links to prove that I'm not just talking to increase my post count.
That was the main problem that many of us (who could really care less if the # sold is 1 or 10 million) with AgtSmith in not only this thread but also the 172k thread.
When asked to backup assumptions, and statements of "typically", "usually", "since we all know", etc. There is either silence or the topic at hand is changed. If someone wants to just voice their opinion... go ahead and post away... everyone's entitled as long as they stay within the rules of the board.
However, when those preceding words are used to qualify your statement, making it look like you are speaking for more players or trying to represent a player group.... Well, that's where you'll have to back it up with some proof.
Haven't got the proof? Well, then don't be surprised if people just call you a "hate-boy" or "troll" and tell you to go post somewhere else. Remember, it's not the personal opinion that's the problem... it's trying to come off as some expert on the subject without anything to back it up that's the problem.
Take this very topic for example:
The OP says he thinks that's great that Turbine has released 2 Free Content Updates in 4 Months. ( I do agree that he should have stayed away from the second statement... not sure if that is true or not).
What happens? He gets jumped by AgtSmith (and a couple others) basically saying that LoTRo is a P2P game and by it's very definition nothing can ever be free. LOL!
Nevermind the fact that many, many gaming web sites call them free updates as well. See... if you get additional content (not bug fixes) that you don't have to pay for... it's considered free content. Not to be confused with Expansion Packs that are NOT usually free. (See below for links to gaming websites that also called it free)
As a side "quest" I challenge any of you saying these are not free updates to find 3 web site articles that agree with you... not posts in forums, but 3 actual articles like I've provided below.
Yes, we all know the game costs money to buy initially... the same as all P2P MMO's. (Heh, well there are some exceptions for older MMOs, especially in the Asian market).
Yes, we all know that unless you're a Lifetime member there is a monthly fee... the same as all P2P MMO's
The distinction (shared by a number of gaming websites) is that this was additional game-play that players didn't have to purchase... or another way to say it is... free content. (See below for links to gaming websites that also called it free)
Here are the links for other web sites that called the content free:
Enough? Because there are a lot more. Just wanting to show... it's not just the OP calling it free, in fact it's tough to find a site that isn't calling it free.
Yeah, but... see... to AgtSmith.. those sites don't matter.. because the websites you linked are obviously tainted by fanboys. They don't share his point-of-view.. what else could they be?
I am glad a couple others have come in and pointed out the same things I've been trying to convey... and in better form than I have (I admit I get a bit more verbose than necessary at times).
But by now, I realize it's all for naught. No amount of proof, or verification will make a difference. If AgtSmith placed any value in such a thing, he'd use it himself, but he doesn't. So, it probably won't matter a lick to him that others do. Everyone who disagrees with him is wrong... and is just a fanboy.
That's why I've decided just to mock him when appropriate. Anyone who spouts off unverified information as fact, refuses to provide a lick of proof to back it up, and then calls you "fanboy" when you challenge him on it simply shouldn't be taken seriously.
I'll just sit back and enjoy the show
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by winter Ok I'll Bite, how can someone who does not play the game, has not played the game in months, and in fact whose only source of information about the game seems to be second hand opinion from other people who may not play the game either have a valid opinion?
Easy - i am not commenting on anything about LotRO that requires ever having played it - just on the idea of whether these content updates are 'free' or otherwise remarkable in terms of being so unusual as to be worthy of praising Turbine. I would say it is somewhat invalid to offer commentary on new things about a game if you have played them or otherwise gotten reliable information about them but that is not what people said and not relevant to this discussion. Someone, couple folks actually, actually said you cannot have a valid opinion if you are not currently playing, which by extension means you cannot have a valid opinion unless you are a fan as only a fan (obviously) would still be paying to play the game.
Originally posted by dragonace The OP says he thinks that's great that Turbine has released 2 Free Content Updates in 4 Months. ( I do agree that he should have stayed away from the second statement... not sure if that is true or not). What happens? He gets jumped by AgtSmith (and a couple others) basically saying that LoTRo is a P2P game and by it's very definition nothing can ever be free. LOL!
As a side "quest" I challenge any of you saying these are not free updates to find 3 web site articles that agree with you... not posts in forums, but 3 actual articles like I've provided below.
Jumped? I jumped him? this is the kind of stuff that makes people call you guys fanboys. I didn't jump, flame, or even moderately berade anyone - I just said I think it is wrong and explained why. But see that is the rub - to your way of thinking NOT being blindly in love with all things LotRO and Turbine is slaming, flaming, and jumping on all things Turbine/LotRO.
As for your quest - again with red herrings. How about I turn it back on you - find a gaming site article that says AgtSmith is wrong or I am clearly right. Poor logic can work both ways. Asde from the fact that gaming sites are notorious about being marketting arms of developers it is just specious to suggest someone is wrong if they cannot prove a negative.
Yeah, but... see... to AgtSmith.. those sites don't matter.. because the websites you linked are obviously tainted by fanboys. They don't share his point-of-view.. what else could they be?
I am glad a couple others have come in and pointed out the same things I've been trying to convey... and in better form than I have (I admit I get a bit more verbose than necessary at times). But by now, I realize it's all for naught. No amount of proof, or verification will make a difference. If AgtSmith placed any value in such a thing, he'd use it himself, but he doesn't. So, it probably won't matter a lick to him that others do. Everyone who disagrees with him is wrong... and is just a fanboy. That's why I've decided just to mock him when appropriate. Anyone who spouts off unverified information as fact, refuses to provide a lick of proof to back it up, and then calls you "fanboy" when you challenge him on it simply shouldn't be taken seriously. I'll just sit back and enjoy the show
So those sites are the authority then on such things? Curious that you find them non-authoritative when they say something you don't like such as reporting the sales figure that started the last discussion you fanboys tried to stifle. I think for myself, I don't need a site (particularly ones that are as much about marketing games as commenting on them) to qualify whether the content is free or not because I know for a fact that unless you give Turbine monies each month your account privileges get revoked. No content for you! I played SWG for a while (first 6 months and then another 6 or 9 months later when JTL was out) and I didn't think it was 'free' content when SoE implemented creature mounts, vehicles, player cities, or any number of other major new additions to the game that where put in in the first few months. I enjoyed having new things but saw it for what it was, the stuff that didn't get finished in time to get in by release. I don't see how things with LotRO here are any different other than turbine, as I have ALWAYS said, did a good job of polishing the game prior to release so it is understandable if some things got left out to be added post release. Big whoop - how is that a flame? I play allot of FPS games as well and they regularly get content updates, not as much as back in the day but patches, maps, sometimes other stuff. And these are not even subscription games. I just don't see a couple content patches from a pay to play game as being any big deal even if it is on the nice side of the scale. It just isn't that unusual and it is anything but free.
You all say I am bashing LotRO but how has anything I have said here remotely qualify as a bash, or even a negative characterization? You guys are hilarious the way you get so bent out of shape at even a hint of someone not drooling over LotRO and Turbine, it is a riot. Give me a break and get over you puppy love for the game, for any game.
i dont see why we should get over anything you obviously feel the need to hate us for having a puppy love for it so why cant we retaliate in defence for something we like? Maybe you should get over the hate for us that like the game and just move on.
Originally posted by dragonace The distinction (shared by a number of gaming websites) is that this was additional game-play that players didn't have to purchase... or another way to say it is... free content.
I see each monthly fee as buying a month of play - and I would suggest Turbine and most DEVs probably see it that way as well as it is a carrot to get you to re-up. To me that is the antithesis of 'free'. As I recall with DDO Turbine conveniently and smartly offered these content updates just in time to get people to have to re-subscribe to see it. I am not saying that is evil or wrong, it is good business, but it illustrates the point about you paying for it by buying another subscription.
Can I not disagree that it is 'free' and/or remarkable (the content after launch) and not be wildly flaming the game and turbine? Why must any non-praise be attacked as a flaming flamey flame? You say that means free I say it does,'t because I think each month you send in money to play that month and get access to that content. Does that position make me evil? Does looking at every MMO I have played that also got similar content updates on a somewhat regular basis and concluding then that while nice Turbine's action here is not remarkable make me one who is expressing hate? I mean seriously - why is it that anyone not drooling over LotRO and Turbine is hating on them, bashing them, jumping all over them.
Originally posted by charlizd
i dont see why we should get over anything you obviously feel the need to hate us for having a puppy love for it so why cant we retaliate in defence for something we like? Maybe you should get over the hate for us that like the game and just move on.
You should do whatever you want - but you should offer others that same choice. If you want to love the game go ahead - but the way fanboys swarm attack anyone not sharing in their mystified worship of the game earns the criticism back and the term. No reasonable person could read this thread and describe it as anything but fanboys attacking me for posting a non-glowing comment about the game. I didn't even criticize the game, or turbine - I just didn't over praise as they feel everyone should lest they be shouted down. You do what you want, just remember that extends to others and remember here and elsewhere which side is trying to tell the other they have no right to speak on subjects.
Just for clarity - consider the below in determining who is doing the flaming and jumping around here - below are my FIRST and SECOND comment in this thread:
Originally posted by AgtSmith
Originally posted by Quingu
first was book 9 in june. Book 10 coming next monday
No other game company out there gives to their costumers a MAJOR free content update every 2 months, they already announce book 11 for october forums.lotro.com/showthread.php
Correct me if I am wrong but this is a pay to play game, so it isn't free updates they are updates available to paying subscribers. That being said, turbine has allways pushed content out, but most big MMOs do as well, especially ones that are as linear and quest based as LotRO as the only thing to do, the only reason to pay for another month is to do the content. So I suppose credit is due but it is by no means free and the game design requires it be done.
Oh man - get out the fire extinguishers as I am really flaming away there aren't I. I mean I should be banned for being so negative and outright cruels <end sarcasm>. And note the comment I replied to - the "No other game company out there" part was what really sparked my comment along with the free characterization. I acknowledged turbine did a good thing, but I offered the opinion that making it out as mightily unusual or free was just wrong.
Originally posted by AgtSmith
Originally posted by Quingu
But most big MMOs don't do it in a regular basis like turbine does, one BIG update every 2 months, LOOK at WOW the MMO with more people paying how many content updates in last 8 months? 1 YES only one....Turbine will do 4 big content updates in 8 months huge difference here.
As I said, credit where credit is due but the idea that it is free is inaccurate. Also, Turbine has released two MMOs (DDO and LotRO) now with an undeniable lack of content so while it is good they are publishing new content it is relaly just putting in what the game was missing. Not too many people, fans included, would say that either DDO or LotRO shipped with enough content for months of subscription play.
Again - this is flaming? This is jumping on people? What got the fanboy hoards all angry was the comment that LotRO shipped lite on content. Maybe to some it is controversial but I stand by saying that as anyone around the game at launch KNOWS turbine was vocal about focusing on shipping the game complete and really polished so they left out stuff in favor of making sure all that was in was well polished (part of that being housing for instance, part being higher end stuff, even medium end stuff, part being monster play which was still needing work, etc). The comment was fair but that is what started the fanboy attack machine as nothing else I said could have reasonably warranted even the most ardent fan feeling I flamed the game or Turbine.
Above is why I call fanboy and why I respond to the attacks and unreasonable insistence on nothing but glowing love and adoration. it is because they don't just insist you don't flame the game, they insist you are not critical, they insist you are not even neutral. They insist you love and adore the game as they do and that is ridiculous.
I agree with you 100% every 1 is entitled to there own opinion otherwise what is the point of these forums but the problem is that we and you yourself voice your opinion but it in itself just does not seem enough and thus we end up with these fanboy arguments that spiral totally of topic and out of context, why cant people just voice there opinion and be done with it the more you bite back the more people are going to retaliate and i know it seems silly over a GAME but it happens the best solution is to turn a blind eye and ignore i mean so what if a game is not what you want it to be is it really affecting your life? (not directed at you Agt smith) does it really make your life so miserable that some people like these games?
I guess what im saying is that people will like and dislike certain games, is there really any point in arguing this fact, do you achieve anything in life by arguing what is good and what is not.Please have an opinion and leave it at that it is not really worth arguing over.
Wow, I can’t believe that this thread has gone on for 15 pages (or worse yet, I read them all)!
Is it free? In my opinion yes, I have been playing since about a week after launch and have yet to get a toon over lvl 25 (personal choice). I have not used any of the new content (that I’m aware of) so basically I’m still playing the game that came with the box.
As for Agt.Smith, I can see your point also. Yes they add new content to get folks to re-sub, and I guess that could be construed as paying for it, but it is all in the eye of the credit card holder.
I my opinion its like buying a new car with 100% warranty on repairs (bug fixes) and then as an added bonus they throw in a new stereo for the heck of it, and then a new paint job a couple of months later. I bought the car because I liked it, and the dealer keeps giving me upgrades, even though I’m still paying the same car payment.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
Yeah, but... see... to AgtSmith.. those sites don't matter.. because the websites you linked are obviously tainted by fanboys. They don't share his point-of-view.. what else could they be?
I am glad a couple others have come in and pointed out the same things I've been trying to convey... and in better form than I have (I admit I get a bit more verbose than necessary at times). But by now, I realize it's all for naught. No amount of proof, or verification will make a difference. If AgtSmith placed any value in such a thing, he'd use it himself, but he doesn't. So, it probably won't matter a lick to him that others do. Everyone who disagrees with him is wrong... and is just a fanboy. That's why I've decided just to mock him when appropriate. Anyone who spouts off unverified information as fact, refuses to provide a lick of proof to back it up, and then calls you "fanboy" when you challenge him on it simply shouldn't be taken seriously. I'll just sit back and enjoy the show
So those sites are the authority then on such things?
... are you?
Wait... Was that a serious question? I'll proceed assuming it was...
No. Nor do they have to be. They are reporting information as-is to their readers. They're not spending their time in forums obsessing over whether people might be "praising Turbine too much" over free content updates or whether or not some unverifiable sales numbers are really indication of a successful game. I don't see them crying "fanboy" when challenged to back up their alleged "facts" with actual references.
So, yeah, I think I would have to take the consensus of numerous articles stating the information matter-of-factly over your obsession-driven goal of taking terms out of context, repeatedly misquoting supposed "official statements" by Turbine and throwing out unverified statements as "fact" without backing them up... all because people are acting "a little too happy with Turbine" for your personal taste.
You can go ahead and call me a fanboy now for disagreeing with you.
Curious that you find them non-authoritative when they say something you don't like such as reporting the sales figure that started the last discussion you fanboys tried to stifle. I think for myself, I don't need a site (particularly ones that are as much about marketing games as commenting on them) to qualify whether the content is free or not because I know for a fact that unless you give Turbine monies each month your account privileges get revoked.
lol.. are you for real?
First of all, I recall my reaction to the whole "172k" thing to be "Who the hell cares?" and "What the hell is your point, AgtSmith?" (seems to be a recurring theme with you). I don't know the numbers and I don't care what the numbers are. I had characterized them as being an abstraction anyway once you get into the 100s of thousands and that the average player isn't going to interact with more than a very small percentage of that during their time playing anyway. That it boiled down a case of "my MMO can beat up your MMO". That ring a bell?
But anyway... There you have it. AgtSmith's view > the consenus of numerous Gaming Sites. At least you're consistently delusional.
You can go ahead and call me a fanboy now.
You all say I am bashing LotRO but how has anything I have said here remotely qualify as a bash, or even a negative characterization? You guys are hilarious the way you get so bent out of shape at even a hint of someone not drooling over LotRO and Turbine, it is a riot.
And on he goes with the mischaracterization. No one's upset that you're not "drooling over LoTRO and Turbine". How about joining the conversation and addressing the actual situation, yes? We're disputing and perhaps a bit amused (well, outright laughing at you in my case) at your obsession over "people praising Turbine too much" to where you'll go on and on and on and on... and on... debating it, as though you have some agenda you're trying to push. Like I've said.. it's not even a real point.
You can go ahead and call me a fanboy now.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by WSIMike And on he goes with the mischaracterization. No one's upset that you're not "drooling over LoTRO and Turbine". How about joining the conversation and addressing the actual situation, yes? We're disputing and perhaps a bit amused (well, outright laughing at you in my case) at your obsession over "people praising Turbine too much" to where you'll go on and on and on and on... and on... debating it, as though you have some agenda you're trying to push. Like I've said.. it's not even a real point. It's absurd semantics. You can go ahead and call me a fanboy now.
Apologies for the wierd quoting, it happens.
I do not think it a mis-characterization to point out I was attacked rabidly when I did nothing but offer a counter opinion (one hardly even negative). And it is a pattern that whenever these threads break out the biggest arguments are from fans who, in the end, are not even arguing the point at hand but flaming others who are not only offering criticism but even those offering anything but praise. My original comments here in this thread (quoted above) illustrate this fanboy-ism at work - I offered a differing opinion, one that was hardly a flame or even criticism - then the argument was switched by the fanboys to whether I should be posting, why am I flaming, and all sorts of that type of stuff. Anyone who is of a reasoned mind can clearly see it where the fans go rapid and attack those not echoing their undying praise and glory. You say I have an obsession, hardly; you and a few like you are the ones who seem obsessed with flaming any comment i make even one as benign and unarguably rational as the ones I made here. Then you guys set about changing the argument into one that seeks to just silence those who don't spout the adoration you have for the game.
The real odd thing is that I really am not a huge basher of LotR allthough I am a basher, or at least a counter as I would put it, to the 'LotRO is the greatest thing ever' and 'WoW-buster' crowds. I mean I certainly didn't care for it but I offer a fair opinion of the game crediting Turbine for it being well made and such even if not to my liking. I even recall in a recent thread I told a guy it was probably worth the $50 to try it as it offers at least a couple weeks of play even if it turns out not to be your cup of tea. Even in this thread I offered credit to Turbine for some good things and only remarked critically at the OP (not the game). Yet, again - as so many times before - I get characterized as flaming the game wildly when nothing of the sort has happened. It is a bit of game political correctness that happens all over and is clearly aimed at silencing those who don't offer the same glowing praise as the fanboys.
The more you guys go around trying to slam to hell and back anyone who goes against your view the more you are going to draw the attention of people interested in showing you wrong, or showing you up, or otherwise interested. It is like the star athlete with the big mouth - many in his home town may love him but everyone else will love to see him fail. Rapid fanboyism draws that kind of attention. calling every contrary opinion a flame or bash draws that kind of attention. Attacking people who are offering reasonable opinions even if they are not ones you agree with will attract that kind of attention. If you don't want people hating on your game quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and not offer the praise you do.
You are obviously put off by anyone expressing what you feel is "too much praise for Turbine or LoTRO", as those are the comments you seem to go after consistently. You showed this in your last post with the whole "countering" thing.
It's quite clear that you're not here to have a debate, or to exchange opinions, you are here to shut people's views down or "set them straight"; spinning details out of context and citing some phantom group of "LotRO fanboys" to do so, among other things.
You have demonstrated that a lack of verifiable proof of your claims doesn't stop you from expressing them as "facts" anyway. It also doesnt' stop you from playing the "fanboy" card when people challenge you on them.
Continue on all you want, just don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously. You've given no reason to.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Again you say I am talking down LotRO and/or turbine - where? You continue to balk falsehoods and lies and wonder why I argue with you. I will always contest lies, fabrications, and other such inventions by fanboys or other irrational people as i will argue against false or inaccurate statements as in the OP. Verifiable proof? Are you arguing that LotRO operates as a pay to play game? How would I offer verification of the fact that something you pay to play is not free? Try Websters if you have difficulty with the meaning of words, is is not incumbant on me to educate people on the meaning of the word free as most people get it. As for the uniqueness of providing content after launch - I and others have pointed out a number of games that did the very same thing. So a pay to play game is not free according to the meaning of the word free and the act of adding content after release is not uncommon - how is that not a valid and supported argument? And how is saying that the hate and bashing you keep falsely accusing me of? Face it man, you and your fanboy ilk ignore the facts you say you want people to provide and then make up lies about people to try to change the arguments you cannot win just as you and others have done here.
Originally posted by AgtSmith As for your quest - again with red herrings. How about I turn it back on you - find a gaming site article that says AgtSmith is wrong or I am clearly right. Poor logic can work both ways. Asde from the fact that gaming sites are notorious about being marketting arms of developers it is just specious to suggest someone is wrong if they cannot prove a negative.
LOL! Perfect, exactly as was expected, glad you don't disappoint.
And my "quest" would be a red herring... how? I showed you 10 (out of many, many) sites that agreed with the OP in that it was FREE content. Very ON TOPIC for this thread. So, not sure how the red herring card comes into play.
As for finding a site that says AgtSmith is wrong... I just posted links to 10 of them... duh... Or, perhaps you missed the part where they said the content was free as well... which you are arguing it is not. How is that not proving you wrong? Oh yeah, that's right I almost forgot. Everyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't count. Heh, yeah... with that attitude... I guess you're always right. Nevermind the fact that you can't find a single reliable source to back you up on that.
LOL! Face it... you are alone in this (o.k., we'll give you the one or two others in this thread). But, find just 1... there, I'll make it even easier on you... find just one web-site article to back up your position.
Heh, you just lost all credibility of your "NO SPIN" speech with me AgtSmith. Try and back up just one of your statements with some proof for once... since that's what NO SPIN means.
Oh, and as far as me being a fanboy... show me where I've said anything about LoTRo that can't be backed up. I've done nothing but try and cut down on the SPIN... mainly by YOU!
I for one am enjoying the heck out of latest 2 free expansions and looking forward to the next free expansion in November. I wonder if the January one will be free also or if we will have to buy that one? Who knows maybe SOE and Blizzard will get a clue and start giving thie games fans free exapnsions like Turbine does. But then Turbine has a long history of giving free expansions.
... If you don't want people hating on your game quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and not offer the praise you do.
Cuts both ways. Here's another way to phrase what you said:
If you don't want people hating on YOU, quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and LIKE a GAME you do NOT.
... If you don't want people hating on your game quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and not offer the praise you do.
Cuts both ways. Here's another way to phrase what you said:
If you don't want people hating on YOU, quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and LIKE a GAME you do NOT.
Now I am again said to be hating - once again below are my hateful and flaming comments on the OP that got the fanboys so angred:
Originally posted by AgtSmith
Originally posted by Quingu
first was book 9 in june. Book 10 coming next monday
No other game company out there gives to their costumers a MAJOR free content update every 2 months, they already announce book 11 for october forums.lotro.com/showthread.php
Correct me if I am wrong but this is a pay to play game, so it isn't free updates they are updates available to paying subscribers. That being said, turbine has allways pushed content out, but most big MMOs do as well, especially ones that are as linear and quest based as LotRO as the only thing to do, the only reason to pay for another month is to do the content. So I suppose credit is due but it is by no means free and the game design requires it be done.
Originally posted by AgtSmith
Originally posted by Quingu
But most big MMOs don't do it in a regular basis like turbine does, one BIG update every 2 months, LOOK at WOW the MMO with more people paying how many content updates in last 8 months? 1 YES only one....Turbine will do 4 big content updates in 8 months huge difference here.
As I said, credit where credit is due but the idea that it is free is inaccurate. Also, Turbine has released two MMOs (DDO and LotRO) now with an undeniable lack of content so while it is good they are publishing new content it is relaly just putting in what the game was missing. Not too many people, fans included, would say that either DDO or LotRO shipped with enough content for months of subscription play.
WOW! Those are really hate filled. Hard to imagine why anyone would respond with the 'old fanboy label as those comments are clearly worthy of attacks, lies, and mis-characterizations because they are so vile and mean.
Originally posted by Jackdog
I for one am enjoying the heck out of latest 2 free expansions and looking forward to the next free expansion in November. I wonder if the January one will be free also or if we will have to buy that one? Who knows maybe SOE and Blizzard will get a clue and start giving thie games fans free exapnsions like Turbine does. But then Turbine has a long history of giving free expansions.
And here we have the ridiculous exaggeration that inspires people to comment. now they are free expansions. As if any reasonable person would consider them stand alone sellable content worthy of an expansion. As I never played WoW i cannot comment on Blizzard but as I and others have said many games have done similar things, SoE added creature mounts, vehicles, and player cities to galaxies within the first few months yet they are the evil do no good while turbine is giving away free expansions.
of course they are free expansions Smith what else would you call them. They are excellent free expansions at that. SOE needs to take a good look at how Turbine does things is all. Maybe Smedley and Brad should intern at Turbine awhile, kind of learn the ropes. Anyway Like I said excellent free expansions.
Comments
Heh. Don't worry about it. Seabass says stuff like that to me all the time. I don't think he likes me. At any rate, Seabass, it was indeed a figure of speech meaning I can't understand why some people here are talking about the breadth and depth of content being so great when I saw very little, compared to other games. Granted, the game itself isn't bad, I had a good time, and I love LOTR. I can see myself going back to it in a few months. But right now, no.
Alas.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Heh. Don't worry about it. Seabass says stuff like that to me all the time. I don't think he likes me. At any rate, Seabass, it was indeed a figure of speech meaning I can't understand why some people here are talking about the breadth and depth of content being so great when I saw very little, compared to other games. Granted, the game itself isn't bad, I had a good time, and I love LOTR. I can see myself going back to it in a few months. But right now, no.
Alas.
Well that boils down to personal perspective. You didn't see much in it. Others do. Neither one is right or wrong. It's all subjective.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Discuss a subject with someone that don't play the game it's hard.
So only a paying player has a valid opinion? With that ridiculous thought you just gave everyone the very definition of 'fanboy'.
As for Mike, I am not saying it is not a good thing that turbine is doing, or of note at least. turbine, as I said in this thread, has a history of shipping well crafted content and supplementing it after launch. Being a part of the LotRO community for some time pre-launch they where clear about their development goal of shipping the game with a very complete and very well crafted start and adding more content later. is this a good thing, I suppose. Is it praise worthy - perhaps. But is it some altruistic free gift as the OP and others suggest - not hardly. Consider other subscription products - like magazines. Each month you get a completely new magazine but nobody would say it is free by any stretch. Turbine opted with LotRO to do what they did with DDO and ship a smaller amount of very well finished content and supplement it later - again it is their MO. Just because they are now following through on what they said they would do all along doesn't make it very unusual, very praiseworthy (although refreshing in a way), and certainly doesn't make it free. Your logic on the pay system is just flawed. People re-buy LotRO (or any sub based MMO) each month when thier previous 30 day sub expires. In this case turbine is offering a carrot of new content to get people to re-buy but they are simply and factually not giving anything away for free. I seriously cannot believe you even argue this, I mean while you wail on me for being some monumental basher nothing I have said here, and little I have said elsewhere really qualifies as such. It is you, and other fanboys like you, insistence on pouncing on any comment that doesn't radiate incredible praise as being a complete slam that is ridiculous and immature as evidenced by your sides insistence that those who disagree not voice their opinion. It is quite easy to spot the weaker side in any argument as it is always the ones who criticize the fact that there is an argument.
Ok I'll Bite, how can someone who does not play the game, has not played the game in months, and in fact whose only source of information about the game seems to be second hand opinion from other people who may not play the game either have a valid opinion? Don't you have to have some actual facts/information/experience about the current state of something to judge it with any validness? Thats kinda like saying I saw the original Star Trek series and loved / hated it thus all the other Star Trek series (deep space nine, next generation etc etc) are just as great / terrible even though I have not ever watched any of them. Valid opinion there? I'd say not (apologies for the geeky example but its what popped into my head first
)
As to free vs paying for the expansions compare LoTRO to other MMORPG's not to magazines etc. (apples to apples not apples to oranges) Is EQ2's next expansion free (Ruins of Kunrak <sp?>), No. Is WoW's next expansion free? No. Humm so ok most of the Big MMORPG's are asking you to pay them extra (ie more then your monthly sub fee) for their expansions and the ability to progress. In comparison to this I would have to yes LoTRO's major expansions are free. In fact nowhere have I seen that paying any MMO's monthly sub fee entitles one to anything more then basic bug fixes and the ability to keep play the game. SO your point that paying monthly fees equals paying for the expansion doesn't fly. Paying monthly fees by any MMO's deffinentions that I've seen merely means you are paying to continue playing, using up server bandwith and whatever memory storage that goes with it.
If your comparing LoTRO vs another MMORPG that currently exists then I'd love to here about it. If on the other hand your just comparing LoTRO vs some imagined image of a perfect MMORPG in your head then I'd say your arguement is not based in reality. Is LoTRO perfect? Sadly no, it suffers from some of the same flaws of many other MMORPG's, Does it try and improve upon other MMORPG's? I'd say yes and for several it does, for others it doesn't (simple fact you can't make everyone happy. ie make the harcore 40 man raiders happy and the casuals will be upset, make the PVP gankers happy, and the carebears will not like it etc.)
Can we hope MMO's will improve in the future yes, but I think most people will agree it will be from the constructive critiques using factual current first hand knowledge, rather then the "I heard ABC on the web from strangeguyX thus your game suxxors" (I think alot of us are guilty of this at one point or another) Note Agent smith I know your not saying LoTRO blows etc, but you do seem to have alot of negative coments / opinioons about a game you don't and have not played from what seems to be some time (since what free beta?) . Also not saying you can't post any opinions you have, or that you should somehow forgive LoTRO for not being what you wanted when you played it in beta. Still Say you hate Billy Thompson because in preschool he hit you with a baseball, and now 26 years later you run into him again and find you work in the same office and say you still hate him, seems kinda silly. (Forgive the wild examples if you will but i think you get my point
)
Heh. Don't worry about it. Seabass says stuff like that to me all the time. I don't think he likes me. At any rate, Seabass, it was indeed a figure of speech meaning I can't understand why some people here are talking about the breadth and depth of content being so great when I saw very little, compared to other games. Granted, the game itself isn't bad, I had a good time, and I love LOTR. I can see myself going back to it in a few months. But right now, no.
Alas.
Well that boils down to personal perspective. You didn't see much in it. Others do. Neither one is right or wrong. It's all subjective.
I believe that is what I said...
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Word.
What is really 'too bad' is that fans who say they love a game so much feel it is necessary to stifle people on a gaming website from discussing games. Seems to me if you fanboys love the game so much you should be spending yoru time playing it and not spend yoru time browsing a general MMO website, I know if I had an MMO I was interested in playing now I would be playing it and not browsing this site discussing MMOs in general. I certainly would never come to a gaming site and tell people they shouldn't be talking about games as that would be pretty stupid.
Hehe truth do tell I don't think anyone is "stiffling" you. In fact you have said it again and again you wouldn't even be posting if there were no fans to rage against. (OMG their hyping the game, they must eat crow! sound familiar?) As if you would post your opinions here if everyone agreed with you or if there were no fans of the game to challenge wits with. You live off the attention your posts get you here IMO. Surely DnL is a much bigger disappointment of a game and you could post there and everyone would agree, but yet you don't
( I admit I find a good debate interesting at times.) The whole "I'm a innocent victom that people are trying to repress" role does not suit you.
Tell the truth, as you yourself pointed out there IS no MMO you currently like, Thus your taking your disappointment and frustrations out by bashing LoTRO (the most recent MMORPG that hasn't lived up to your expectations?) Perhaps you do it in hopes you can make others feel just as sad and upset as you? (misery loves company, if you can't be happy with it why should anyone else right?) Surely you don't believe you do it to make anyone else here happier,
The 'constructive criticism' thing is a red herring. It is not incumbent on anyone to have an idea for improvement in order to offer a criticism. That said, I did not even offer a criticism of LotRO, just a criticism of the OP.
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Back on topic a sec, my opinion is that you pay to use their game monthy at $15, whether they add content or not. So when they do add content, I'm still paying $15 regardless, therefore, I consider the additions to be free content.
My $15 sub fee goes to salary, keeping the lights on and the hamsters running on the wheels. If I log in one day, and a whole new zone, skills, and upgrades have been added to the game, I don't take out my credit card so I can enjoy it, I see that as free content. I was paying $15 a month to play those 5 zones today, and after a patch I'm paying $15 to play the 7 zones tomorrow.
The way i look at it, the two added zones didn't cost me anything more than the original 5 did, ergo, free.
Nope, not in the least. Because it can't be verified what the the # is that has sold. I think I've pointed out quite clearly all the unverified statements made by AgtSmith in the 172k thread. I also think I've done a pretty fair job of backing up anything I say as something other than my opinion with actual links to prove that I'm not just talking to increase my post count.
That was the main problem that many of us (who could really care less if the # sold is 1 or 10 million) with AgtSmith in not only this thread but also the 172k thread.
When asked to backup assumptions, and statements of "typically", "usually", "since we all know", etc. There is either silence or the topic at hand is changed. If someone wants to just voice their opinion... go ahead and post away... everyone's entitled as long as they stay within the rules of the board.
However, when those preceding words are used to qualify your statement, making it look like you are speaking for more players or trying to represent a player group.... Well, that's where you'll have to back it up with some proof.
Haven't got the proof? Well, then don't be surprised if people just call you a "hate-boy" or "troll" and tell you to go post somewhere else. Remember, it's not the personal opinion that's the problem... it's trying to come off as some expert on the subject without anything to back it up that's the problem.
Take this very topic for example:
The OP says he thinks that's great that Turbine has released 2 Free Content Updates in 4 Months. ( I do agree that he should have stayed away from the second statement... not sure if that is true or not).
What happens? He gets jumped by AgtSmith (and a couple others) basically saying that LoTRo is a P2P game and by it's very definition nothing can ever be free. LOL!
Nevermind the fact that many, many gaming web sites call them free updates as well. See... if you get additional content (not bug fixes) that you don't have to pay for... it's considered free content. Not to be confused with Expansion Packs that are NOT usually free. (See below for links to gaming websites that also called it free)
As a side "quest" I challenge any of you saying these are not free updates to find 3 web site articles that agree with you... not posts in forums, but 3 actual articles like I've provided below.
Yes, we all know the game costs money to buy initially... the same as all P2P MMO's. (Heh, well there are some exceptions for older MMOs, especially in the Asian market).
Yes, we all know that unless you're a Lifetime member there is a monthly fee... the same as all P2P MMO's
The distinction (shared by a number of gaming websites) is that this was additional game-play that players didn't have to purchase... or another way to say it is... free content.
(See below for links to gaming websites that also called it free)
Here are the links for other web sites that called the content free:
"the second of many planned free updates to the world of Middle-earth"
"the second free content update for subscribers"
"free update for subscribers"
"details of the second free content update"
"released the first free update"
"LotR Online Gets Second Free Update"
"second free content update"
"More free content for Lord of the Rings Online"
"releasing its second free content pack"
"brand new, free content update for the popular LotR MMORPG."
Enough? Because there are a lot more. Just wanting to show... it's not just the OP calling it free, in fact it's tough to find a site that isn't calling it free.
Heh. Don't worry about it. Seabass says stuff like that to me all the time. I don't think he likes me. At any rate, Seabass, it was indeed a figure of speech meaning I can't understand why some people here are talking about the breadth and depth of content being so great when I saw very little, compared to other games. Granted, the game itself isn't bad, I had a good time, and I love LOTR. I can see myself going back to it in a few months. But right now, no.
Alas.
Well that boils down to personal perspective. You didn't see much in it. Others do. Neither one is right or wrong. It's all subjective.
I believe that is what I said...
Cool.
Then we agree
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Nope, not in the least. Because it can't be verified what the the # is that has sold. I think I've pointed out quite clearly all the unverified statements made by AgtSmith in the 172k thread. I also think I've done a pretty fair job of backing up anything I say as something other than my opinion with actual links to prove that I'm not just talking to increase my post count.
That was the main problem that many of us (who could really care less if the # sold is 1 or 10 million) with AgtSmith in not only this thread but also the 172k thread.
When asked to backup assumptions, and statements of "typically", "usually", "since we all know", etc. There is either silence or the topic at hand is changed. If someone wants to just voice their opinion... go ahead and post away... everyone's entitled as long as they stay within the rules of the board.
However, when those preceding words are used to qualify your statement, making it look like you are speaking for more players or trying to represent a player group.... Well, that's where you'll have to back it up with some proof.
Haven't got the proof? Well, then don't be surprised if people just call you a "hate-boy" or "troll" and tell you to go post somewhere else. Remember, it's not the personal opinion that's the problem... it's trying to come off as some expert on the subject without anything to back it up that's the problem.
Take this very topic for example:
The OP says he thinks that's great that Turbine has released 2 Free Content Updates in 4 Months. ( I do agree that he should have stayed away from the second statement... not sure if that is true or not).
What happens? He gets jumped by AgtSmith (and a couple others) basically saying that LoTRo is a P2P game and by it's very definition nothing can ever be free. LOL!
Nevermind the fact that many, many gaming web sites call them free updates as well. See... if you get additional content (not bug fixes) that you don't have to pay for... it's considered free content. Not to be confused with Expansion Packs that are NOT usually free. (See below for links to gaming websites that also called it free)
As a side "quest" I challenge any of you saying these are not free updates to find 3 web site articles that agree with you... not posts in forums, but 3 actual articles like I've provided below.
Yes, we all know the game costs money to buy initially... the same as all P2P MMO's. (Heh, well there are some exceptions for older MMOs, especially in the Asian market).
Yes, we all know that unless you're a Lifetime member there is a monthly fee... the same as all P2P MMO's
The distinction (shared by a number of gaming websites) is that this was additional game-play that players didn't have to purchase... or another way to say it is... free content.
(See below for links to gaming websites that also called it free)
Here are the links for other web sites that called the content free:
"the second of many planned free updates to the world of Middle-earth"
"the second free content update for subscribers"
"free update for subscribers"
"details of the second free content update"
"released the first free update"
"LotR Online Gets Second Free Update"
"second free content update"
"More free content for Lord of the Rings Online"
"releasing its second free content pack"
"brand new, free content update for the popular LotR MMORPG."
Enough? Because there are a lot more. Just wanting to show... it's not just the OP calling it free, in fact it's tough to find a site that isn't calling it free.
Yeah, but... see... to AgtSmith.. those sites don't matter.. because the websites you linked are obviously tainted by fanboys. They don't share his point-of-view.. what else could they be?
I am glad a couple others have come in and pointed out the same things I've been trying to convey... and in better form than I have (I admit I get a bit more verbose than necessary at times).
But by now, I realize it's all for naught. No amount of proof, or verification will make a difference. If AgtSmith placed any value in such a thing, he'd use it himself, but he doesn't. So, it probably won't matter a lick to him that others do. Everyone who disagrees with him is wrong... and is just a fanboy.
That's why I've decided just to mock him when appropriate. Anyone who spouts off unverified information as fact, refuses to provide a lick of proof to back it up, and then calls you "fanboy" when you challenge him on it simply shouldn't be taken seriously.
I'll just sit back and enjoy the show
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Easy - i am not commenting on anything about LotRO that requires ever having played it - just on the idea of whether these content updates are 'free' or otherwise remarkable in terms of being so unusual as to be worthy of praising Turbine. I would say it is somewhat invalid to offer commentary on new things about a game if you have played them or otherwise gotten reliable information about them but that is not what people said and not relevant to this discussion. Someone, couple folks actually, actually said you cannot have a valid opinion if you are not currently playing, which by extension means you cannot have a valid opinion unless you are a fan as only a fan (obviously) would still be paying to play the game.
Jumped? I jumped him? this is the kind of stuff that makes people call you guys fanboys. I didn't jump, flame, or even moderately berade anyone - I just said I think it is wrong and explained why. But see that is the rub - to your way of thinking NOT being blindly in love with all things LotRO and Turbine is slaming, flaming, and jumping on all things Turbine/LotRO.
As for your quest - again with red herrings. How about I turn it back on you - find a gaming site article that says AgtSmith is wrong or I am clearly right. Poor logic can work both ways. Asde from the fact that gaming sites are notorious about being marketting arms of developers it is just specious to suggest someone is wrong if they cannot prove a negative.
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So those sites are the authority then on such things? Curious that you find them non-authoritative when they say something you don't like such as reporting the sales figure that started the last discussion you fanboys tried to stifle. I think for myself, I don't need a site (particularly ones that are as much about marketing games as commenting on them) to qualify whether the content is free or not because I know for a fact that unless you give Turbine monies each month your account privileges get revoked. No content for you! I played SWG for a while (first 6 months and then another 6 or 9 months later when JTL was out) and I didn't think it was 'free' content when SoE implemented creature mounts, vehicles, player cities, or any number of other major new additions to the game that where put in in the first few months. I enjoyed having new things but saw it for what it was, the stuff that didn't get finished in time to get in by release. I don't see how things with LotRO here are any different other than turbine, as I have ALWAYS said, did a good job of polishing the game prior to release so it is understandable if some things got left out to be added post release. Big whoop - how is that a flame? I play allot of FPS games as well and they regularly get content updates, not as much as back in the day but patches, maps, sometimes other stuff. And these are not even subscription games. I just don't see a couple content patches from a pay to play game as being any big deal even if it is on the nice side of the scale. It just isn't that unusual and it is anything but free.
You all say I am bashing LotRO but how has anything I have said here remotely qualify as a bash, or even a negative characterization? You guys are hilarious the way you get so bent out of shape at even a hint of someone not drooling over LotRO and Turbine, it is a riot. Give me a break and get over you puppy love for the game, for any game.
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i dont see why we should get over anything you obviously feel the need to hate us for having a puppy love for it so why cant we retaliate in defence for something we like? Maybe you should get over the hate for us that like the game and just move on.
I see each monthly fee as buying a month of play - and I would suggest Turbine and most DEVs probably see it that way as well as it is a carrot to get you to re-up. To me that is the antithesis of 'free'. As I recall with DDO Turbine conveniently and smartly offered these content updates just in time to get people to have to re-subscribe to see it. I am not saying that is evil or wrong, it is good business, but it illustrates the point about you paying for it by buying another subscription.
Can I not disagree that it is 'free' and/or remarkable (the content after launch) and not be wildly flaming the game and turbine? Why must any non-praise be attacked as a flaming flamey flame? You say that means free I say it does,'t because I think each month you send in money to play that month and get access to that content. Does that position make me evil? Does looking at every MMO I have played that also got similar content updates on a somewhat regular basis and concluding then that while nice Turbine's action here is not remarkable make me one who is expressing hate? I mean seriously - why is it that anyone not drooling over LotRO and Turbine is hating on them, bashing them, jumping all over them.
You should do whatever you want - but you should offer others that same choice. If you want to love the game go ahead - but the way fanboys swarm attack anyone not sharing in their mystified worship of the game earns the criticism back and the term. No reasonable person could read this thread and describe it as anything but fanboys attacking me for posting a non-glowing comment about the game. I didn't even criticize the game, or turbine - I just didn't over praise as they feel everyone should lest they be shouted down. You do what you want, just remember that extends to others and remember here and elsewhere which side is trying to tell the other they have no right to speak on subjects.
Just for clarity - consider the below in determining who is doing the flaming and jumping around here - below are my FIRST and SECOND comment in this thread:
Correct me if I am wrong but this is a pay to play game, so it isn't free updates they are updates available to paying subscribers. That being said, turbine has allways pushed content out, but most big MMOs do as well, especially ones that are as linear and quest based as LotRO as the only thing to do, the only reason to pay for another month is to do the content. So I suppose credit is due but it is by no means free and the game design requires it be done.
Oh man - get out the fire extinguishers as I am really flaming away there aren't I. I mean I should be banned for being so negative and outright cruels <end sarcasm>. And note the comment I replied to - the "No other game company out there" part was what really sparked my comment along with the free characterization. I acknowledged turbine did a good thing, but I offered the opinion that making it out as mightily unusual or free was just wrong.
But most big MMOs don't do it in a regular basis like turbine does, one BIG update every 2 months, LOOK at WOW the MMO with more people paying how many content updates in last 8 months? 1 YES only one....Turbine will do 4 big content updates in 8 months huge difference here.
As I said, credit where credit is due but the idea that it is free is inaccurate. Also, Turbine has released two MMOs (DDO and LotRO) now with an undeniable lack of content so while it is good they are publishing new content it is relaly just putting in what the game was missing. Not too many people, fans included, would say that either DDO or LotRO shipped with enough content for months of subscription play.
Again - this is flaming? This is jumping on people? What got the fanboy hoards all angry was the comment that LotRO shipped lite on content. Maybe to some it is controversial but I stand by saying that as anyone around the game at launch KNOWS turbine was vocal about focusing on shipping the game complete and really polished so they left out stuff in favor of making sure all that was in was well polished (part of that being housing for instance, part being higher end stuff, even medium end stuff, part being monster play which was still needing work, etc). The comment was fair but that is what started the fanboy attack machine as nothing else I said could have reasonably warranted even the most ardent fan feeling I flamed the game or Turbine.
Above is why I call fanboy and why I respond to the attacks and unreasonable insistence on nothing but glowing love and adoration. it is because they don't just insist you don't flame the game, they insist you are not critical, they insist you are not even neutral. They insist you love and adore the game as they do and that is ridiculous.
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I agree with you 100% every 1 is entitled to there own opinion otherwise what is the point of these forums but the problem is that we and you yourself voice your opinion but it in itself just does not seem enough and thus we end up with these fanboy arguments that spiral totally of topic and out of context, why cant people just voice there opinion and be done with it the more you bite back the more people are going to retaliate and i know it seems silly over a GAME but it happens the best solution is to turn a blind eye and ignore i mean so what if a game is not what you want it to be is it really affecting your life? (not directed at you Agt smith) does it really make your life so miserable that some people like these games?
I guess what im saying is that people will like and dislike certain games, is there really any point in arguing this fact, do you achieve anything in life by arguing what is good and what is not.Please have an opinion and leave it at that it is not really worth arguing over.
Wow, I can’t believe that this thread has gone on for 15 pages (or worse yet, I read them all)!
Is it free? In my opinion yes, I have been playing since about a week after launch and have yet to get a toon over lvl 25 (personal choice). I have not used any of the new content (that I’m aware of) so basically I’m still playing the game that came with the box.
As for Agt.Smith, I can see your point also. Yes they add new content to get folks to re-sub, and I guess that could be construed as paying for it, but it is all in the eye of the credit card holder.
I my opinion its like buying a new car with 100% warranty on repairs (bug fixes) and then as an added bonus they throw in a new stereo for the heck of it, and then a new paint job a couple of months later. I bought the car because I liked it, and the dealer keeps giving me upgrades, even though I’m still paying the same car payment.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
So those sites are the authority then on such things?
... are you?
Wait... Was that a serious question? I'll proceed assuming it was...
No. Nor do they have to be. They are reporting information as-is to their readers. They're not spending their time in forums obsessing over whether people might be "praising Turbine too much" over free content updates or whether or not some unverifiable sales numbers are really indication of a successful game. I don't see them crying "fanboy" when challenged to back up their alleged "facts" with actual references.
So, yeah, I think I would have to take the consensus of numerous articles stating the information matter-of-factly over your obsession-driven goal of taking terms out of context, repeatedly misquoting supposed "official statements" by Turbine and throwing out unverified statements as "fact" without backing them up... all because people are acting "a little too happy with Turbine" for your personal taste.
You can go ahead and call me a fanboy now for disagreeing with you.
Curious that you find them non-authoritative when they say something you don't like such as reporting the sales figure that started the last discussion you fanboys tried to stifle. I think for myself, I don't need a site (particularly ones that are as much about marketing games as commenting on them) to qualify whether the content is free or not because I know for a fact that unless you give Turbine monies each month your account privileges get revoked.
lol.. are you for real?
First of all, I recall my reaction to the whole "172k" thing to be "Who the hell cares?" and "What the hell is your point, AgtSmith?" (seems to be a recurring theme with you). I don't know the numbers and I don't care what the numbers are. I had characterized them as being an abstraction anyway once you get into the 100s of thousands and that the average player isn't going to interact with more than a very small percentage of that during their time playing anyway. That it boiled down a case of "my MMO can beat up your MMO". That ring a bell?
But anyway... There you have it. AgtSmith's view > the consenus of numerous Gaming Sites. At least you're consistently delusional.
You can go ahead and call me a fanboy now.
You all say I am bashing LotRO but how has anything I have said here remotely qualify as a bash, or even a negative characterization? You guys are hilarious the way you get so bent out of shape at even a hint of someone not drooling over LotRO and Turbine, it is a riot.
And on he goes with the mischaracterization. No one's upset that you're not "drooling over LoTRO and Turbine". How about joining the conversation and addressing the actual situation, yes? We're disputing and perhaps a bit amused (well, outright laughing at you in my case) at your obsession over "people praising Turbine too much" to where you'll go on and on and on and on... and on... debating it, as though you have some agenda you're trying to push. Like I've said.. it's not even a real point.
You can go ahead and call me a fanboy now.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Apologies for the wierd quoting, it happens.
I do not think it a mis-characterization to point out I was attacked rabidly when I did nothing but offer a counter opinion (one hardly even negative). And it is a pattern that whenever these threads break out the biggest arguments are from fans who, in the end, are not even arguing the point at hand but flaming others who are not only offering criticism but even those offering anything but praise. My original comments here in this thread (quoted above) illustrate this fanboy-ism at work - I offered a differing opinion, one that was hardly a flame or even criticism - then the argument was switched by the fanboys to whether I should be posting, why am I flaming, and all sorts of that type of stuff. Anyone who is of a reasoned mind can clearly see it where the fans go rapid and attack those not echoing their undying praise and glory. You say I have an obsession, hardly; you and a few like you are the ones who seem obsessed with flaming any comment i make even one as benign and unarguably rational as the ones I made here. Then you guys set about changing the argument into one that seeks to just silence those who don't spout the adoration you have for the game.
The real odd thing is that I really am not a huge basher of LotR allthough I am a basher, or at least a counter as I would put it, to the 'LotRO is the greatest thing ever' and 'WoW-buster' crowds. I mean I certainly didn't care for it but I offer a fair opinion of the game crediting Turbine for it being well made and such even if not to my liking. I even recall in a recent thread I told a guy it was probably worth the $50 to try it as it offers at least a couple weeks of play even if it turns out not to be your cup of tea. Even in this thread I offered credit to Turbine for some good things and only remarked critically at the OP (not the game). Yet, again - as so many times before - I get characterized as flaming the game wildly when nothing of the sort has happened. It is a bit of game political correctness that happens all over and is clearly aimed at silencing those who don't offer the same glowing praise as the fanboys.
The more you guys go around trying to slam to hell and back anyone who goes against your view the more you are going to draw the attention of people interested in showing you wrong, or showing you up, or otherwise interested. It is like the star athlete with the big mouth - many in his home town may love him but everyone else will love to see him fail. Rapid fanboyism draws that kind of attention. calling every contrary opinion a flame or bash draws that kind of attention. Attacking people who are offering reasonable opinions even if they are not ones you agree with will attract that kind of attention. If you don't want people hating on your game quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and not offer the praise you do.
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AgtSmith,
For the last time...
We get it.
You don't like the game.
You don't like Turbine.
You are obviously put off by anyone expressing what you feel is "too much praise for Turbine or LoTRO", as those are the comments you seem to go after consistently. You showed this in your last post with the whole "countering" thing.
It's quite clear that you're not here to have a debate, or to exchange opinions, you are here to shut people's views down or "set them straight"; spinning details out of context and citing some phantom group of "LotRO fanboys" to do so, among other things.
You have demonstrated that a lack of verifiable proof of your claims doesn't stop you from expressing them as "facts" anyway. It also doesnt' stop you from playing the "fanboy" card when people challenge you on them.
Continue on all you want, just don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously. You've given no reason to.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Again you say I am talking down LotRO and/or turbine - where? You continue to balk falsehoods and lies and wonder why I argue with you. I will always contest lies, fabrications, and other such inventions by fanboys or other irrational people as i will argue against false or inaccurate statements as in the OP. Verifiable proof? Are you arguing that LotRO operates as a pay to play game? How would I offer verification of the fact that something you pay to play is not free? Try Websters if you have difficulty with the meaning of words, is is not incumbant on me to educate people on the meaning of the word free as most people get it. As for the uniqueness of providing content after launch - I and others have pointed out a number of games that did the very same thing. So a pay to play game is not free according to the meaning of the word free and the act of adding content after release is not uncommon - how is that not a valid and supported argument? And how is saying that the hate and bashing you keep falsely accusing me of? Face it man, you and your fanboy ilk ignore the facts you say you want people to provide and then make up lies about people to try to change the arguments you cannot win just as you and others have done here.
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And my "quest" would be a red herring... how? I showed you 10 (out of many, many) sites that agreed with the OP in that it was FREE content. Very ON TOPIC for this thread. So, not sure how the red herring card comes into play.
As for finding a site that says AgtSmith is wrong... I just posted links to 10 of them... duh... Or, perhaps you missed the part where they said the content was free as well... which you are arguing it is not. How is that not proving you wrong? Oh yeah, that's right I almost forgot. Everyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't count. Heh, yeah... with that attitude... I guess you're always right.
Nevermind the fact that you can't find a single reliable source to back you up on that. 
LOL! Face it... you are alone in this (o.k., we'll give you the one or two others in this thread). But, find just 1... there, I'll make it even easier on you... find just one web-site article to back up your position.
Heh, you just lost all credibility of your "NO SPIN" speech with me AgtSmith. Try and back up just one of your statements with some proof for once... since that's what NO SPIN means.
Oh, and as far as me being a fanboy... show me where I've said anything about LoTRo that can't be backed up. I've done nothing but try and cut down on the SPIN... mainly by YOU!
I for one am enjoying the heck out of latest 2 free expansions and looking forward to the next free expansion in November. I wonder if the January one will be free also or if we will have to buy that one? Who knows maybe SOE and Blizzard will get a clue and start giving thie games fans free exapnsions like Turbine does. But then Turbine has a long history of giving free expansions.
I miss DAoC
If you don't want people hating on YOU, quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and LIKE a GAME you do NOT.
Cuts both ways. Here's another way to phrase what you said:If you don't want people hating on YOU, quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and LIKE a GAME you do NOT.
Now I am again said to be hating - once again below are my hateful and flaming comments on the OP that got the fanboys so angred:
Correct me if I am wrong but this is a pay to play game, so it isn't free updates they are updates available to paying subscribers. That being said, turbine has allways pushed content out, but most big MMOs do as well, especially ones that are as linear and quest based as LotRO as the only thing to do, the only reason to pay for another month is to do the content. So I suppose credit is due but it is by no means free and the game design requires it be done.
But most big MMOs don't do it in a regular basis like turbine does, one BIG update every 2 months, LOOK at WOW the MMO with more people paying how many content updates in last 8 months? 1 YES only one....Turbine will do 4 big content updates in 8 months huge difference here.
As I said, credit where credit is due but the idea that it is free is inaccurate. Also, Turbine has released two MMOs (DDO and LotRO) now with an undeniable lack of content so while it is good they are publishing new content it is relaly just putting in what the game was missing. Not too many people, fans included, would say that either DDO or LotRO shipped with enough content for months of subscription play.
WOW! Those are really hate filled. Hard to imagine why anyone would respond with the 'old fanboy label as those comments are clearly worthy of attacks, lies, and mis-characterizations because they are so vile and mean.
And here we have the ridiculous exaggeration that inspires people to comment. now they are free expansions. As if any reasonable person would consider them stand alone sellable content worthy of an expansion. As I never played WoW i cannot comment on Blizzard but as I and others have said many games have done similar things, SoE added creature mounts, vehicles, and player cities to galaxies within the first few months yet they are the evil do no good while turbine is giving away free expansions.
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of course they are free expansions Smith what else would you call them. They are excellent free expansions at that. SOE needs to take a good look at how Turbine does things is all. Maybe Smedley and Brad should intern at Turbine awhile, kind of learn the ropes. Anyway Like I said excellent free expansions.
I miss DAoC