They are only free, because no one would pay for them. Its not like Turbine doesn't make expansions. They've made some for AC and AC2. Its just that DDO and LoTRO are lacking to the extreme, so they give "MAJOR content updates". Other companies call these patches.
They are only free, because no one would pay for them. Its not like Turbine doesn't make expansions. They've made some for AC and AC2. Its just that DDO and LoTRO are lacking to the extreme, so they give "MAJOR content updates". Other companies call these patches.
I would pay for them... heck, SOE made me pay for SMALLER content patches.
Anyone remember the Bloodline Chronicles and Splitpaw for EQ2? $4.95 for teenie zones. Talk about not worth paying for!
_________________________________ JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
They are only free, because no one would pay for them. Its not like Turbine doesn't make expansions. They've made some for AC and AC2. Its just that DDO and LoTRO are lacking to the extreme, so they give "MAJOR content updates". Other companies call these patches.
I thought "patches" were to fix bugs, glitches, and the like. I did not think they added new zones, skills, traits, armor, weps and the like.
Please justify your comments with "in my opinion DDO and LoTR are lacking to the extreme.", because you do not speak for me and many others who do not feel that way.
Thanks
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
Again you say I am talking down LotRO and/or turbine - where? You continue to balk falsehoods and lies and wonder why I argue with you. I will always contest lies, fabrications, and other such inventions by fanboys or other irrational people as i will argue against false or inaccurate statements as in the OP. Verifiable proof? Are you arguing that LotRO operates as a pay to play game? How would I offer verification of the fact that something you pay to play is not free? Try Websters if you have difficulty with the meaning of words, is is not incumbant on me to educate people on the meaning of the word free as most people get it. As for the uniqueness of providing content after launch - I and others have pointed out a number of games that did the very same thing. So a pay to play game is not free according to the meaning of the word free and the act of adding content after release is not uncommon - how is that not a valid and supported argument? And how is saying that the hate and bashing you keep falsely accusing me of? Face it man, you and your fanboy ilk ignore the facts you say you want people to provide and then make up lies about people to try to change the arguments you cannot win just as you and others have done here.
Ugh! Paragraphs! Please! Thank you!
First, you keep deliberately arguing about the word "free" in a context that no one else here is discussing it in. That context has been explained and demonstrated many many times.
When the game launched, you paid, say, $40 (or whatever); a one-time cost for the game itself, with all included content and packaging, etc. At launch, this included only a finite amount of in-game content, spanning a limited region of Middle Earth. It also covers a portion of future content to be added which Turbine couldn't get in by launch. Now, before you start with victory chants or "I told you so's", that isn't a concession. The "missing" part accounts for a limited amount of content. It's not a catch-all for every new update to come down the road. So please, let's keep this in context, shall we?
You agree to pay another $14 a month to continue playing the game. That subscription fee goes toward ongoing use of the hardware, bandwidth, customer support, maintenance, etc all required to insure the game continues to run and customers are able to keep playing. This is why the subscription rate is consistent, regardless of the amount of content in-game at any given time. You are not paying to "repurchase the game" every month, or however you phrased that in past posts. That's an intellectually dishonest and ridiculous assertion to make.
Now... along comes a content update which the designers/programmers/testers all invested significant time and resources into designing, creating, implementing, testing and tweaking prior to its release. They could very well, as SOE does with their "Adventure Packs", justify that time and effort by treating these updates as "mini expansions", charging a separate one-time fee to purchase and download them. That scenario would certainly make them not free updates. But they don't. You don't pay a single red penny to receive the added content. The price of the initial retail purchase doesn't go up due to the increased content available from the get-go. Nothing changes. Ergo, the content updates themselves are free.
Similarly, they could increase the subscription rate, using the logic of "well you've been paying $14/mnth for X amount of content... and we just added Y, which requires additional resources to maintain, so it justifies an increase in the subscription rate of Y amount to the current subscription rate." They didn't. You pay the same $14 a month as you were without the content updates. You have incurred no additional charge on either side of the deal. Thus... the content updates themselves are free.
The simple explanation, as many have said and understand it is, you do not pay anything extra to receive the new content updates... thus they are free.
That is the way most people, demonstrably, acknowledge it. That you keep your blinders on and insist the way you frame it is right and everyone else is somehow misled or mistaken doesn't change a thing. It's you who is at odds with common-sense here, not "everyone else who disagrees with you".
And before you inevitably come back with the "well you only see it that way because you're all LoTRO fanboys"... This is game-agnostic. It's the same principal no matter what game we might be talking about using a similar pricing model. It just so happens to be LoTRO in this case.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I have paid 59 USD to play LOTRO for 6 months in its state as it was on the 24th of April.
Both 2 additions are totally free for me - if you can convince me otherwise, you can might as well convince me to learn to breathe underwater.
As for the "lacking content" point of view.... Since it is very hard to fairly compare LOTRO at launch to EQ, EQ2, WOW etc. at launch, let's just say this: been playing for 4 months now, still haven't seen at least 20-25% of the ORIGINAL content of LOTRO. Of course, I have seen much of Evendim (as it came out when my main was lvl 33), and now I have yet to see the 2nd update's content - my main is 42 so it'll just fit as nicely. BTW already started some reputation quest, not my cup of tea in general, but I'm curious for the rewards.
AgtSmith is just AgtSmith, don't worry about him - his only problem is when he's cornered (asked for backup on his info, proven plain wrong etc.), he'll start yelling "fanboy". Otherwise he's harmless!
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I have paid 59 USD to play LOTRO for 6 months in its state as it was on the 24th of April. Both 2 additions are totally free for me - if you can convince me otherwise, you can might as well convince me to learn to breathe underwater. As for the "lacking content" point of view.... Since it is very hard to fairly compare LOTRO at launch to EQ, EQ2, WOW etc. at launch, let's just say this: been playing for 4 months now, still haven't seen at least 20-25% of the ORIGINAL content of LOTRO. Of course, I have seen much of Evendim (as it came out when my main was lvl 33), and now I have yet to see the 2nd update's content - my main is 42 so it'll just fit as nicely. BTW already started some reputation quest, not my cup of tea in general, but I'm curious for the rewards. AgtSmith is just AgtSmith, don't worry about him - his only problem is when he's cornered (asked for backup on his info, proven plain wrong etc.), he'll start yelling "fanboy". Otherwise he's harmless! DB
Heheheh.. thank you for the reassurance. I don't think anyone here feels "threatened" about the guy. Personally, I'm waiting for him to give in and either provide proof of any of the increasing number of claims he makes or just to simply give in and admit perhaps he's mistaken... But I don't think either of those will happen. I fully expect he'll just move on to a different thread and start over.
Not the first time I've dealt with someone who enters a debate with a presumed "I'm right, no matter what. Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong" mentality. A friend of mine has that same mentality. Difference is when you hit him with a challenge he can't fulfill, the point where AgtSmith starts throwing out the "fanboy" card, my friend simply gets ticked off and doesn't talk to you for a couple weeks. Then he'll later insist he never said what you were debating with him about in the first place, or that you just misunderstood him. I've quoted back to him exactly what he said, word-for-word, and he's insisted "I never said that".
Some people just can't be graceful about it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I have paid 59 USD to play LOTRO for 6 months in its state as it was on the 24th of April. Both 2 additions are totally free for me - if you can convince me otherwise, you can might as well convince me to learn to breathe underwater. As for the "lacking content" point of view.... Since it is very hard to fairly compare LOTRO at launch to EQ, EQ2, WOW etc. at launch, let's just say this: been playing for 4 months now, still haven't seen at least 20-25% of the ORIGINAL content of LOTRO. Of course, I have seen much of Evendim (as it came out when my main was lvl 33), and now I have yet to see the 2nd update's content - my main is 42 so it'll just fit as nicely. BTW already started some reputation quest, not my cup of tea in general, but I'm curious for the rewards. AgtSmith is just AgtSmith, don't worry about him - his only problem is when he's cornered (asked for backup on his info, proven plain wrong etc.), he'll start yelling "fanboy". Otherwise he's harmless! DB
Heheheh.. thank you for the reassurance. I don't think anyone here feels "threatened" by the guy. Personally, I'm waiting for him to give in and either provide proof of any of the increasing number of claims he makes or just to simply give in and admit perhaps he's mistaken... But I don't think either of those will happen. I fully expect he'll just move on to a different thread and start over.
Not the first time I've dealt with someone who enters every debate with a presumed "I'm right, no matter what. Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong" mentality. A friend of mine has that same mentality. Difference is when you hit him with a challenge he can't fulfill, the point where AgtSmith starts throwing out the "fanboy" card, my friend simply gets ticked off and doesn't talk to you for a couple weeks. Then he'll later insist he never said what you were debating with him about in the first place, or that you just misunderstood him. I've quoted back to him exactly what he said, and he's insisted "I never said that".
Some people just can't be graceful about it.
LOL - it seems most of us has a friend like this me too! I like the guy very much BTW - he's good-spirited, loves his friends (and family), extremely intelligent (has 3 degrees, one in maths, one in economics), but once in a while he just sticks to something it can...never...be...changed. And I mean never.
Must be a certain personality pattern - I used to be somewhat similar in my youth (under 25 mostly). It is a somewhat immature thing I believe - some grow out of it, some don't!
Sorry for the offtopic...
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
... If you don't want people hating on your game quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and not offer the praise you do.
Cuts both ways. Here's another way to phrase what you said:
If you don't want people hating on YOU, quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and LIKE a GAME you do NOT.
Now I am again said to be hating - once again below are my hateful and flaming comments on the OP that got the fanboys so angred:
...
Ahh... so you do understand the concept of providing references to your claims... But I guess only when it's your own words you're citing?
And, you did make the comment: "... If you don't want peoplehating on your game quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and not offer the praise you do."
Those are your words, and the relevant part colored blue for emphasis.
Dragonace was responding directly to that comment. You introduced the whole "hating on" thing... It is a safe assumption that you included yourself in that statement, no? Unless you presume to speak for everyone else, except yourself?
Really, though, there was nothing out of line about his response. You said it, he responded to it in context with a counterpoint... to which you flew off the handle accusing him of calling you hateful.
lol.
It's really rather funny now that I think about it.
So, when are we going to get the references to all the other comments you've stated as "facts"? I know, I know... You don't have to say it... "Fanboy!", right?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Only you guys could deny reality to the point that you expect some third party reference to support a comment that a pay-to-play game isn't adding content for free. It is oh so illuminating to see such a harmless point attacked as if it was blasphemy, but then attack and demonise is the only weapon you guys have. Many have pointed out that allot of games add content after release and do not charge anything extra for it - but you ignore that and continue to act as if Turbine is uniquely altruistic with LotRO. Go ahead and believe what you want, most reasonable people are not going to agree with you that these additions are anything other than normal, good but mostly normal. And most people have little difficulty understanding that any changes to the game are hardly free so long as you have to pay a subscription to access them despite what a few sites acting as marketing partners for Turbine might say. I find it humerous that you end up making my point for me as by the end of this thread things where fanboy spun into Turbine having provided 2 free expansions to LotRO - something scant few of clear heads would even consider as accurate even if some might question the use of the word free as one of semantics.
Only you guys could deny reality to the point that you expect some third party reference to support a comment that a pay-to-play game isn't adding content for free. Err.. yeah... Way to misrepresent. I believe it was 10 of many outside references that were linked here, guy. Not "some third party reference"... "several third party references". Many have pointed out that allot of games add content after release and do not charge anything extra for it - but you ignore that and continue to act as if Turbine is uniquely altruistic with LotRO. Wait... -sniff-... I think I smell something... -sniff- Is that... hypocrisy? -sniff- I think it is!
So.. just two sentences back, you're saying this: "Only you guys could deny reality to the point that you expect some third party reference to support a comment" Pretty strong indication that you find third-party references pointless. Of course, that they don't support your point-of-view has nothing to do with that, I'm sure.
Yet... You turn around and say "Many have pointed out..." So wait... Now suddenly third party references *do* count? Oh wait... because they agree with you. Of course. Agree with Smith and you're trustworthy beyond requiring proof. Disagree with Smith and you're wrong, and a fanboy, and doing marketing for Turbine (I'll get to that in a bit)... At least we provide you links to references for you to dismiss. I'm still waiting for one iota of evidence to prove the existence of these many "others" you've made reference to in your time here. They all seem to prove your case, yet you can't point to a single one of them. Now *that's* credibility.
And, I'm glad you agree that there are MMOs whose developers release updates without any extra charge - ie. free updates. I believe I pointed out in my last post to you that it wasn't LoTRO specific. Glad we can agree on that.
Go ahead and believe what you want, most reasonable people are not going to agree with you that these additions are anything other than normal, good but mostly normal. Hmm.. "most reasonable people"... would that be another reference to "third-party resources"? But... but... I thought those don't count.. Oh wait.. that's right. They only count if they agree with you. I keep forgetting. Don't worry.. I won't bother asking you to provide references or links to these "reasonable people" you speak of. I do fully count on you continuing to refer to them though.
And most people have little difficulty understanding that any changes to the game are hardly free so long as you have to pay a subscription to access them despite what a few sites acting as marketing partners for Turbine might say.
Oh! Oh! Another claim! So now AgtSmith has the inside scoop on what websites are acting as marketing partners for Turbine! Okay... I'll bite.. Can you provide us the proof of how you know this? Which websites, specifically are they? Who are the contacts? What's Turbine providing in exchange for the marketing? Come on... you known enough to say they're "marketing" for them, you must have access to some details... You know... I was expecting you to say something to that effect.. but then thought "Nahh... he wouldn't go that far".. But bam... you turned around and proved me wrong.
I find it humerous that you end up making my point for me as by the end of this thread things where fanboy spun into Turbine having provided 2 free expansions to LotRO - something scant few of clear heads would even consider as accurate even if some might question the use of the word free as one of semantics.
And there's the word... "Fanboy".. I knew it was hidden in you somewhere waiting for the right moment to come out. Can't address people who don't just agree with you without using the fanboy card.... it has such "I Win" power to it and really just proves a person right by saying it. I don't know what you're on, but it's providing some great entertainment for the rest of us. You're so hell-bent on proving us wrong that you're contradicting yourself, making even more baseless references that you can't and/or will never provide proof for... The BS you're piling up around you has gotten deep beyond rescue at this point.. But you just keep a-piling it on. By all means.. please continue. Oh... and by the way... They're free content updates.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by dragonaceCuts both ways. Here's another way to phrase what you said: If you don't want people hating on YOU, quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and LIKE a GAME you do NOT.
Now I am again said to be hating - once again below are my hateful and flaming comments on the OP that got the fanboys so angred:
Heh... try reading that again. Where did I say YOU were hating? Reading comprehension... good for the soul!
Oh, and I'm still waiting for just 1 site to back-up your opinion Smithy. Remember, I gave you 10... just 1 to match the 10 I gave you... doesn't seem like it should be very hard for such a "logical" opinion... right?
Again you say I am talking down LotRO and/or turbine - where? You continue to balk falsehoods and lies and wonder why I argue with you. I will always contest lies, fabrications, and other such inventions by fanboys or other irrational people as i will argue against false or inaccurate statements as in the OP. Verifiable proof? Are you arguing that LotRO operates as a pay to play game? How would I offer verification of the fact that something you pay to play is not free? Try Websters if you have difficulty with the meaning of words, is is not incumbant on me to educate people on the meaning of the word free as most people get it. As for the uniqueness of providing content after launch - I and others have pointed out a number of games that did the very same thing. So a pay to play game is not free according to the meaning of the word free and the act of adding content after release is not uncommon - how is that not a valid and supported argument? And how is saying that the hate and bashing you keep falsely accusing me of? Face it man, you and your fanboy ilk ignore the facts you say you want people to provide and then make up lies about people to try to change the arguments you cannot win just as you and others have done here.
Ugh! Paragraphs! Please! Thank you!
First, you keep deliberately arguing about the word "free" in a context that no one else here is discussing it in. That context has been explained and demonstrated many many times.
When the game launched, you paid, say, $40 (or whatever); a one-time cost for the game itself, with all included content and packaging, etc. At launch, this included only a finite amount of in-game content, spanning a limited region of Middle Earth. It also covers a portion of future content to be added which Turbine couldn't get in by launch. Now, before you start with victory chants or "I told you so's", that isn't a concession. The "missing" part accounts for a limited amount of content. It's not a catch-all for every new update to come down the road. So please, let's keep this in context, shall we?
You agree to pay another $14 a month to continue playing the game. That subscription fee goes toward ongoing use of the hardware, bandwidth, customer support, maintenance, etc all required to insure the game continues to run and customers are able to keep playing. This is why the subscription rate is consistent, regardless of the amount of content in-game at any given time. You are not paying to "repurchase the game" every month, or however you phrased that in past posts. That's an intellectually dishonest and ridiculous assertion to make.
Now... along comes a content update which the designers/programmers/testers all invested significant time and resources into designing, creating, implementing, testing and tweaking prior to its release. They could very well, as SOE does with their "Adventure Packs", justify that time and effort by treating these updates as "mini expansions", charging a separate one-time fee to purchase and download them. That scenario would certainly make them not free updates. But they don't. You don't pay a single red penny to receive the added content. The price of the initial retail purchase doesn't go up due to the increased content available from the get-go. Nothing changes. Ergo, the content updates themselves are free.
Similarly, they could increase the subscription rate, using the logic of "well you've been paying $14/mnth for X amount of content... and we just added Y, which requires additional resources to maintain, so it justifies an increase in the subscription rate of Y amount to the current subscription rate." They didn't. You pay the same $14 a month as you were without the content updates. You have incurred no additional charge on either side of the deal. Thus... the content updates themselves are free.
The simple explanation, as many have said and understand it is, you do not pay anything extra to receive the new content updates... thus they are free.
That is the way most people, demonstrably, acknowledge it. That you keep your blinders on and insist the way you frame it is right and everyone else is somehow misled or mistaken doesn't change a thing. It's you who is at odds with common-sense here, not "everyone else who disagrees with you".
And before you inevitably come back with the "well you only see it that way because you're all LoTRO fanboys"... This is game-agnostic. It's the same principal no matter what game we might be talking about using a similar pricing model. It just so happens to be LoTRO in this case.
Exactly!
And there are hundreds of web-site articles that can be linked to support that very line of thinking which WSIMike just laid out in very simple, easy to understand language.
Do you know how many web-site articles Smithy has been able to find to support his line of thinking... ZERO! Yup, a big fat goose egg! LOL! That speaks volumes to how many others are in line with his logic. Thankfully.
Only you guys could deny reality to the point that you expect some third party reference to support a comment that a pay-to-play game isn't adding content for free. It is oh so illuminating to see such a harmless point attacked as if it was blasphemy, but then attack and demonise is the only weapon you guys have. Many have pointed out that allot of games add content after release and do not charge anything extra for it - but you ignore that and continue to act as if Turbine is uniquely altruistic with LotRO. Go ahead and believe what you want, most reasonable people are not going to agree with you that these additions are anything other than normal, good but mostly normal. And most people have little difficulty understanding that any changes to the game are hardly free so long as you have to pay a subscription to access them despite what a few sites acting as marketing partners for Turbine might say. I find it humerous that you end up making my point for me as by the end of this thread things where fanboy spun into Turbine having provided 2 free expansions to LotRO - something scant few of clear heads would even consider as accurate even if some might question the use of the word free as one of semantics.
LOL!
Or... another way to say what you just said up there in all that blah, blah, blah, talk is:
"I couldn't find a single source that agrees with me. However, that doesn't change the FACT, that I am correct, and everyone else in the world is wrong!"
Heh... do you know the meaning of the word egomaniac?
Originally posted by dragonaceCuts both ways. Here's another way to phrase what you said: If you don't want people hating on YOU, quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and LIKE a GAME you do NOT.
Now I am again said to be hating - once again below are my hateful and flaming comments on the OP that got the fanboys so angred:
Heh... try reading that again. Where did I say YOU were hating? Reading comprehension... good for the soul!
Oh, and I'm still waiting for just 1 site to back-up your opinion Smithy. Remember, I gave you 10... just 1 to match the 10 I gave you... doesn't seem like it should be very hard for such a "logical" opinion... right?
Nah... He'll never provide anything resembling proof. Why would he do something to undermine himself like that?
Actually, it's dawned on me what AgtSmith's entire philosophy is...
"Who needs 'proof' when you have the word 'fanboy'?"
That's it. No link, nor reference, nor personal account can stand up against that. Never mind the phantom groups of people who all agree with him.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The next free update contains the housing...yummmmm housing ...and doughnuts
But wait... aren't the donuts going to cost a few silver or something? See... you're *wrong*! Those donuts and, hence, the entire update, is not free!! I have an entire army of people who agree with me!!
...
You want me to provide links to some of them?
...
Fanboy!!!
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The next free update contains the housing...yummmmm housing ...and doughnuts
But wait... aren't the donuts going to cost a few silver or something? See... you're *wrong*! Those donuts and, hence, the entire update, is not free!! I have an entire army of people who agree with me!!
...
You want me to provide links to some of them?
...
Fanboy!!!
Heh... you don't need proof... since if Smithy says it... it IS FACT!
LOL! Nevermind the FACT, that he's never once shown a link for anyone outside of this forum ever agreeing with his stance in this thread. Nevermind the FACT, that I've provided thread after thread of PROOF that he is wrong. Wouldn't a logical person think that the one continually evading providing any proof for his line of thinking is the "boy"? Whether it be "hate-boy" or "fan-boy"... "boyism" in my opinion is defined by having baseless (in other words, lacking proof) ideas. So, since I and others have continually linked sites showing him wrong... who would be the "boy"?
That's my theory on him anyway, and here is a definition that I think deserves some forum space:
schizophrenia: Any of a group of psychotic disorders usually characterized by withdrawal from reality, illogical patterns of thinking, delusions, and hallucinations, and accompanied in varying degrees by other emotional, behavioral, or intellectual disturbances. Schizophrenia is often associated with dopamine imbalances in the brain and defects of the frontal lobe and may have an underlying genetic cause.
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English frEo; akin to Old High German frI free, Welsh rhydd, Sanskrit priya own, dear
1 a: having the legal and political rights of a citizen b: enjoying civil and political liberty <free citizens> c: enjoying political independence or freedom from outside domination d: enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another
2 a: not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being : choosing or capable of choosing for itself b: determined by the choice of the actor or performer <free actions> c: made, done, or given voluntarily or spontaneously
3 a: relieved from or lacking something and especially something unpleasant or burdensome <free from pain> <a speech free-free> b: not bound, confined, or detained by force
4 a: having no trade restrictions b: not subject to government regulation cof foreign exchange: not subject to restriction or official control
5 a: having no obligations (as to work) or commitments <I'll be free this evening> b: not taken up with commitments or obligations <a free evening>
6: having a scope not restricted by qualification <a free variable>
7 a: not obstructed, restricted, or impeded <free to leave> b: not being used or occupied <waved with his free hand> c: not hampered or restricted in its normal operation
8 a: not fastened <the free end of the rope> b: not confined to a particular position or place <in twelve-tone music, no note is wholly free for it must hold its place in the series -- J. L. Stewart> c: capable of moving or turning in any direction <a free particle> d: performed without apparatus <free tumbling> e: done with artificial aids (as pitons) used only for protection against falling and not for support <a free climb>
9 a: not parsimonious <free spending> b: OUTSPOKENc: availing oneself of something without stint d: FRANK, OPENe: overly familiar or forward in action or attitude f: LICENTIOUS of political rhetoric> -- often used in combination <error
10 : not costing or charging anything
11 a (1) : not united with, attached to, combined with, or mixed with something else : SEPARATE <free ores> <a free surface of a bodily part> (2) : FREESTANDING <a free column> b: chemically uncombined <free oxygen> <free acids> c: not permanently attached but able to move about <a free electron in a metal> d: capable of being used alone as a meaningful linguistic form <the word hats is a free form> -- compare 5BOUND 7
12 a: not literal or exact <free translation> b: not restricted by or conforming to conventional forms <free skating>
13: FAVORABLE -- used of a wind blowing from a direction more than six points from dead ahead
14: not allowing slavery
15: open to all comers
Sorry to interrupt the fanboy lovefest but I thought since you seem to think I made up the definition of the word free I would post Webster's for clarity. I know you will go on about Mr. Webster being an LotRO basher to discredit their definition but for rational people it will suffice.
OK, please go back to patting yourselves on the back for spinning reality out of shape and attacking people who post reasonable views that differ from your own.
Thank you for that Smith. Not sure anyone here needed to know the meaning of Free in that context. But I'm flattered you went through the extra effort to share your skill with a dictionary with us. It's very impressive.
Hey look.. I can highlight stuff in yellow too!
So, using the highlighted entry as the definition...
It costs us nothing extra to obtain the updates.
Turbine charges nothing extra for the updates
Thus, the Content Updates... are in fact free.
Oh, hey... I have a question for you; a serious question... I want to qualify something with you quick...
If you feel that the content updates aren't free, because you are "charged for them via the monthly subscription"... Then what do you categorize SOE's "Adventure Packs", or otherwise, full retail expansions packs as? I mean, you *are* paying extra for those...
By your reasoning, wouldn't that mean they're charging you *twice* to play the game? The $14 monthly subscription fee *and* the $30-$40 or so for the expansion? By your definition, wouldn't that be considered a rip off? I mean if they're already charging you for added content via the subscription fee, how can they get away with charging you *twice* for it? Shouldn't they at least not charge you the monthly fee for the next couple months to even it out? I mean, the cost of one expansion pack is easily equal to at least 2 months of service. I can understand, maybe, paying for the packaging and such if you buy it at a store. But what about those who download it? By your logic customers are *really* getting screwed on expansions!
See.. It just don't click that way. It makes more sense that the bi-monthly content updates are free while full retail expansions cost extra. I'm paying extra for the retail expansions, while I'm not for the bi-monthly updates. Everything just falls neatly into place in that context.
Feel free to keep debating against common-sense and proper use of context... Keep sharing your "mad skillz" with a dictionary with us.
If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go explore more of the areas from the free Evendim update...
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I would quote Websters on 'obfuscate' but clearly you know the meaning of that word even if you struggle in understanding how someone might object to calling any kind of updates to a pay to play subscription game as free. The point isn't even if the updates are 'free' or not, the point is how a bunch of fanboys can object so strongly to someone saying they are not 'free'. I think it is wrong to say they are free as you must pay a monthly fee to access the new, and old, content which - disagree if you want. But to demononize and vilify someone for arguing they are not free shows how you merit the fanboy label as it is clearly not an outrageous position to suggest they are not free.
Okay, so I'm biased heavily in favor of City of Heroes - I'll be upfront about that. In defense of CoX, the Cryptic team has opted for roughly 3 big releases per year rather than paid expansions (note: CoV was released along with the 3 issues) and have stuck to it having released issue 10 only a few weeks ago. Everyone can argue until they're blue in the face about finished or unfinished content over new content but these are my questions: How long can a company sustain the new content coming out? Should any big patches/expansions/issues that immediately come out so soon after release be questioned as undelivered content? I think people should hold off crowning LotRO "king of free content" until we've seen what Turbine does over the next year or two as sustainability is really key but does it really even matter who offers more as long as the subscriber base is happy? In any case, both Cryptic and Turbine show tremendous commitment to the customers thus far continually delivering content and that should be applauded for it.
In answer to that question: about 9 years so far. Turbine has been adding updates to Asheron's Call (and still is) since 1999. Here's a link for you: www.thejackcat.com/AC/Home/NewStuff.htm
Check the lefthand column.You'll see a very long list of archived "New Stuff" pages, which basically have rundowns of everything that's been patched in since March of 2000 (though there was plenty that happened in 1999 as well). The game currently has 725 dungeons. Yes, 725, and most of the game world is actually outside those dungeons. If they're following the same development cycle in LoTRO that they followed in AC1, patches are going to look like the first two for the foreseeable future.
I would quote Websters on 'obfuscate' but clearly you know the meaning of that word even if you struggle in understanding how someone might object to calling any kind of updates to a pay to play subscription game as free. The point isn't even if the updates are 'free' or not, the point is how a bunch of fanboys can object so strongly to someone saying they are not 'free'. I think it is wrong to say they are free as you must pay a monthly fee to access the new, and old, content which - disagree if you want. But to demononize and vilify someone for arguing they are not free shows how you merit the fanboy label as it is clearly not an outrageous position to suggest they are not free.
LOL! And here we are to his last ditch defense. Just like in the other post. When he knows he's clearly lost. He tries to say that it wasn't even about that in the first place. Just like in the last thread.
You act as if that would be a bad thing if fans of LoTRo were ... in a... wait for it...wait....LoTRo dedicated forum!)
Oh, and one more thing for the record. Like I said in one of the first posts.
Nobody is arguing that the original game IS FREE, because it's not... Duh.
Nobody is arguing that the monthly sub. IS FREE, because it's not ... Duh.
Nobody is arguing that Turbine exclusively provides FREE content ... Duh.
Nobody is arguing what the definition of the word FREE is. ... Duh.
YOU are the one arguing that the FREE Content Updates ... are NOT FREE ... when they ARE. And, any number of professional web sites agree with us on that. Even using your own definition the UPDATES are FREE.
"not costing or charging anything"
Did the FREE Updates cost anything? NOPE... see they are FREE!
Did Turbine charge anything for the FREE Updates? NOPE... see they are FREE!
Thanks for proving our point for us.Heh, who knew that the first time you actually provide a link and some proof... it's to prove the opposite of your point. LOL! Good one.
Jenuviel , few have argued that they don't deserve credit for adding content, and for that matter for shipping a polished game (as I said early on here). The issue is if it is particularly unusual a practice in terms of pay to play games that get content updates. I may not have played as many MMOs as some around here but going back to SWG, my first, just about all of them got such updates as part of the developers trying to keep people paying to play. I never thought of any of them as free as I payed to play the game and I think the characterization here by the fans is one of typical overstatement of the otherwise good act. I mean one guy was proclaiming them free expansions for crying out loud as if they realistically qualify as something they could box and sell for $19 or $29 as expansions typically are. the issue isn't really the updates or their 'free' status anymore it is the constant overstatement by LotRO fanboys whether it is spinning wild thoughts about millions of subs or crowing about free expansions from Turbine.
Additionally, given the fact that LotRO is almost entirely quest based (I am sure that will draw contentious comments but come on, LotRO is a quest based game) it stands to reason that they will have to add content regularly so people have things to do and a reason to keep subscribing. It is also of note that many of the things being added are things that where discussed openly during development as things that would not make release and they are just getting them in now - not evil of them of course but not altruistic either. Sorry if the fanboys in this thread are Johnny-come-lately on LotRO but as someone who was following the game for a bit prior to launch it was commonly said that the focus was having the start of the game being polished and thorough and adding other stuff post launch. It is the exact same thing they did with DDO so why people would argue it now that they are doing it with LotRO is beyond me.
Originally posted by dragonace YOU are the one arguing that the FREE Content Updates ... are NOT FREE ... when they ARE.
First, let me compliment you on such a brilliant argument. I mean the way you contest my points as poorly argued and then explain that it is free because it is free is barely beyond my grasp in terms of its intellectual brilliance and deep logical and analytical perfection.
Second, if they are free then how come I cannot play the new content? Let me suggest an answer - because I did not pay for a subscription the month they where released. Ooops - must pay for subscription in order to access the content - doesn't sound free does it.
Look, piss and moan and vilify all you want - from the guy claiming they are free expansions to the persoanl attacks on anyone who expresses anything but praise for turbine and LotRO it is clear that many of you are all out fanboys who will rage against anything that you view as not support the object of your worship. You argue the semantics of free and beat down anyone who doesn't agree with your brilliant 'it is free because it is free; logic but most reasonable folk will see the point I was arguing about - the overreaction and overexageration by LotRO fans about anything turbine/LotRO.
....for spinning reality out of shape and attacking people who post reasonable views that differ from your own.
See, I knew you had an apology in you. Apology accepted. Now just make sure not to fly off the handle and start attacking people for no good reason from now on.
Originally posted by AgtSmith Second, if they are free then how come I cannot play the new content? Let me suggest an answer - because I did not pay for a subscription the month they where released. Ooops - mustpay for subscription in order to access the content - doesn't sound free does it.
LOL! Well, exactly what would you do with the Free Upates if you weren't going to subscribe to the game? Who knows... you should contact Turbine and ask them if they will send you just the Free Updates all by themselves even though you don't plan on subscribing.
Hmm... how is this analogy?
You lease a new car. You pay a down payment as well as a monthly cost for this new car.
2 months later the dealer sends you a set of new tires for your car completely taking care of all costs for shipping and installation.
The tires will only work on the new car you just leased.
The new tires that the dealer sent you are a lot nicer and make your car go faster than the ones that came with the car originally.
Anyone who leases that same model car now from that dealer gets the new tires that you were sent, not the older tires you originally leased the car with.
So, are the tires FREE?
Well, I know that Smithy will blow my analogy off as Fanboyism... but what do the rest of you think. How does that analogy work with this thread topic?
Comments
They are only free, because no one would pay for them. Its not like Turbine doesn't make expansions. They've made some for AC and AC2. Its just that DDO and LoTRO are lacking to the extreme, so they give "MAJOR content updates". Other companies call these patches.
Anyone remember the Bloodline Chronicles and Splitpaw for EQ2? $4.95 for teenie zones. Talk about not worth paying for!
_________________________________
JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA
Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO
Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
Please justify your comments with "in my opinion DDO and LoTR are lacking to the extreme.", because you do not speak for me and many others who do not feel that way.
Thanks
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
Ugh! Paragraphs! Please! Thank you!
First, you keep deliberately arguing about the word "free" in a context that no one else here is discussing it in. That context has been explained and demonstrated many many times.
When the game launched, you paid, say, $40 (or whatever); a one-time cost for the game itself, with all included content and packaging, etc. At launch, this included only a finite amount of in-game content, spanning a limited region of Middle Earth. It also covers a portion of future content to be added which Turbine couldn't get in by launch. Now, before you start with victory chants or "I told you so's", that isn't a concession. The "missing" part accounts for a limited amount of content. It's not a catch-all for every new update to come down the road. So please, let's keep this in context, shall we?
You agree to pay another $14 a month to continue playing the game. That subscription fee goes toward ongoing use of the hardware, bandwidth, customer support, maintenance, etc all required to insure the game continues to run and customers are able to keep playing. This is why the subscription rate is consistent, regardless of the amount of content in-game at any given time. You are not paying to "repurchase the game" every month, or however you phrased that in past posts. That's an intellectually dishonest and ridiculous assertion to make.
Now... along comes a content update which the designers/programmers/testers all invested significant time and resources into designing, creating, implementing, testing and tweaking prior to its release. They could very well, as SOE does with their "Adventure Packs", justify that time and effort by treating these updates as "mini expansions", charging a separate one-time fee to purchase and download them. That scenario would certainly make them not free updates. But they don't. You don't pay a single red penny to receive the added content. The price of the initial retail purchase doesn't go up due to the increased content available from the get-go. Nothing changes. Ergo, the content updates themselves are free.
Similarly, they could increase the subscription rate, using the logic of "well you've been paying $14/mnth for X amount of content... and we just added Y, which requires additional resources to maintain, so it justifies an increase in the subscription rate of Y amount to the current subscription rate." They didn't. You pay the same $14 a month as you were without the content updates. You have incurred no additional charge on either side of the deal. Thus... the content updates themselves are free.
The simple explanation, as many have said and understand it is, you do not pay anything extra to receive the new content updates... thus they are free.
That is the way most people, demonstrably, acknowledge it. That you keep your blinders on and insist the way you frame it is right and everyone else is somehow misled or mistaken doesn't change a thing. It's you who is at odds with common-sense here, not "everyone else who disagrees with you".
And before you inevitably come back with the "well you only see it that way because you're all LoTRO fanboys"... This is game-agnostic. It's the same principal no matter what game we might be talking about using a similar pricing model. It just so happens to be LoTRO in this case.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I have paid 59 USD to play LOTRO for 6 months in its state as it was on the 24th of April.
Both 2 additions are totally free for me - if you can convince me otherwise, you can might as well convince me to learn to breathe underwater.
As for the "lacking content" point of view.... Since it is very hard to fairly compare LOTRO at launch to EQ, EQ2, WOW etc. at launch, let's just say this: been playing for 4 months now, still haven't seen at least 20-25% of the ORIGINAL content of LOTRO. Of course, I have seen much of Evendim (as it came out when my main was lvl 33), and now I have yet to see the 2nd update's content - my main is 42 so it'll just fit as nicely. BTW already started some reputation quest, not my cup of tea in general, but I'm curious for the rewards.
AgtSmith is just AgtSmith, don't worry about him - his only problem is when he's cornered (asked for backup on his info, proven plain wrong etc.), he'll start yelling "fanboy". Otherwise he's harmless!
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Heheheh.. thank you for the reassurance. I don't think anyone here feels "threatened" about the guy. Personally, I'm waiting for him to give in and either provide proof of any of the increasing number of claims he makes or just to simply give in and admit perhaps he's mistaken... But I don't think either of those will happen. I fully expect he'll just move on to a different thread and start over.
Not the first time I've dealt with someone who enters a debate with a presumed "I'm right, no matter what. Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong" mentality. A friend of mine has that same mentality. Difference is when you hit him with a challenge he can't fulfill, the point where AgtSmith starts throwing out the "fanboy" card, my friend simply gets ticked off and doesn't talk to you for a couple weeks. Then he'll later insist he never said what you were debating with him about in the first place, or that you just misunderstood him. I've quoted back to him exactly what he said, word-for-word, and he's insisted "I never said that".
Some people just can't be graceful about it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Heheheh.. thank you for the reassurance. I don't think anyone here feels "threatened" by the guy. Personally, I'm waiting for him to give in and either provide proof of any of the increasing number of claims he makes or just to simply give in and admit perhaps he's mistaken... But I don't think either of those will happen. I fully expect he'll just move on to a different thread and start over.
Not the first time I've dealt with someone who enters every debate with a presumed "I'm right, no matter what. Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong" mentality. A friend of mine has that same mentality. Difference is when you hit him with a challenge he can't fulfill, the point where AgtSmith starts throwing out the "fanboy" card, my friend simply gets ticked off and doesn't talk to you for a couple weeks. Then he'll later insist he never said what you were debating with him about in the first place, or that you just misunderstood him. I've quoted back to him exactly what he said, and he's insisted "I never said that".
Some people just can't be graceful about it.
LOL - it seems most of us has a friend like thisMust be a certain personality pattern
- I used to be somewhat similar in my youth (under 25 mostly). It is a somewhat immature thing I believe - some grow out of it, some don't!
Sorry for the offtopic...
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
If you don't want people hating on YOU, quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and LIKE a GAME you do NOT.
Now I am again said to be hating - once again below are my hateful and flaming comments on the OP that got the fanboys so angred:
...
Ahh... so you do understand the concept of providing references to your claims... But I guess only when it's your own words you're citing?
And, you did make the comment: "... If you don't want people hating on your game quit treating people (even contrary people) like total trash simply because they may disagree and not offer the praise you do."
Those are your words, and the relevant part colored blue for emphasis.
Dragonace was responding directly to that comment. You introduced the whole "hating on" thing... It is a safe assumption that you included yourself in that statement, no? Unless you presume to speak for everyone else, except yourself?
Really, though, there was nothing out of line about his response. You said it, he responded to it in context with a counterpoint... to which you flew off the handle accusing him of calling you hateful.
lol.
It's really rather funny now that I think about it.
So, when are we going to get the references to all the other comments you've stated as "facts"? I know, I know... You don't have to say it... "Fanboy!", right?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Only you guys could deny reality to the point that you expect some third party reference to support a comment that a pay-to-play game isn't adding content for free. It is oh so illuminating to see such a harmless point attacked as if it was blasphemy, but then attack and demonise is the only weapon you guys have. Many have pointed out that allot of games add content after release and do not charge anything extra for it - but you ignore that and continue to act as if Turbine is uniquely altruistic with LotRO. Go ahead and believe what you want, most reasonable people are not going to agree with you that these additions are anything other than normal, good but mostly normal. And most people have little difficulty understanding that any changes to the game are hardly free so long as you have to pay a subscription to access them despite what a few sites acting as marketing partners for Turbine might say. I find it humerous that you end up making my point for me as by the end of this thread things where fanboy spun into Turbine having provided 2 free expansions to LotRO - something scant few of clear heads would even consider as accurate even if some might question the use of the word free as one of semantics.
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and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Now I am again said to be hating - once again below are my hateful and flaming comments on the OP that got the fanboys so angred:
Heh... try reading that again. Where did I say YOU were hating? Reading comprehension... good for the soul!Oh, and I'm still waiting for just 1 site to back-up your opinion Smithy. Remember, I gave you 10... just 1 to match the 10 I gave you... doesn't seem like it should be very hard for such a "logical" opinion... right?
Ugh! Paragraphs! Please! Thank you!
First, you keep deliberately arguing about the word "free" in a context that no one else here is discussing it in. That context has been explained and demonstrated many many times.
When the game launched, you paid, say, $40 (or whatever); a one-time cost for the game itself, with all included content and packaging, etc. At launch, this included only a finite amount of in-game content, spanning a limited region of Middle Earth. It also covers a portion of future content to be added which Turbine couldn't get in by launch. Now, before you start with victory chants or "I told you so's", that isn't a concession. The "missing" part accounts for a limited amount of content. It's not a catch-all for every new update to come down the road. So please, let's keep this in context, shall we?
You agree to pay another $14 a month to continue playing the game. That subscription fee goes toward ongoing use of the hardware, bandwidth, customer support, maintenance, etc all required to insure the game continues to run and customers are able to keep playing. This is why the subscription rate is consistent, regardless of the amount of content in-game at any given time. You are not paying to "repurchase the game" every month, or however you phrased that in past posts. That's an intellectually dishonest and ridiculous assertion to make.
Now... along comes a content update which the designers/programmers/testers all invested significant time and resources into designing, creating, implementing, testing and tweaking prior to its release. They could very well, as SOE does with their "Adventure Packs", justify that time and effort by treating these updates as "mini expansions", charging a separate one-time fee to purchase and download them. That scenario would certainly make them not free updates. But they don't. You don't pay a single red penny to receive the added content. The price of the initial retail purchase doesn't go up due to the increased content available from the get-go. Nothing changes. Ergo, the content updates themselves are free.
Similarly, they could increase the subscription rate, using the logic of "well you've been paying $14/mnth for X amount of content... and we just added Y, which requires additional resources to maintain, so it justifies an increase in the subscription rate of Y amount to the current subscription rate." They didn't. You pay the same $14 a month as you were without the content updates. You have incurred no additional charge on either side of the deal. Thus... the content updates themselves are free.
The simple explanation, as many have said and understand it is, you do not pay anything extra to receive the new content updates... thus they are free.
That is the way most people, demonstrably, acknowledge it. That you keep your blinders on and insist the way you frame it is right and everyone else is somehow misled or mistaken doesn't change a thing. It's you who is at odds with common-sense here, not "everyone else who disagrees with you".
And before you inevitably come back with the "well you only see it that way because you're all LoTRO fanboys"... This is game-agnostic. It's the same principal no matter what game we might be talking about using a similar pricing model. It just so happens to be LoTRO in this case.
Exactly!And there are hundreds of web-site articles that can be linked to support that very line of thinking which WSIMike just laid out in very simple, easy to understand language.
Do you know how many web-site articles Smithy has been able to find to support his line of thinking... ZERO! Yup, a big fat goose egg! LOL! That speaks volumes to how many others are in line with his logic. Thankfully.
LOL!
Or... another way to say what you just said up there in all that blah, blah, blah, talk is:
"I couldn't find a single source that agrees with me. However, that doesn't change the FACT, that I am correct, and everyone else in the world is wrong!"
Heh... do you know the meaning of the word egomaniac?
The next free update contains the housing...yummmmm housing
...and doughnuts
I miss DAoC
Now I am again said to be hating - once again below are my hateful and flaming comments on the OP that got the fanboys so angred:
Heh... try reading that again. Where did I say YOU were hating? Reading comprehension... good for the soul!Oh, and I'm still waiting for just 1 site to back-up your opinion Smithy. Remember, I gave you 10... just 1 to match the 10 I gave you... doesn't seem like it should be very hard for such a "logical" opinion... right?
Nah... He'll never provide anything resembling proof. Why would he do something to undermine himself like that?
Actually, it's dawned on me what AgtSmith's entire philosophy is...
"Who needs 'proof' when you have the word 'fanboy'?"
That's it. No link, nor reference, nor personal account can stand up against that. Never mind the phantom groups of people who all agree with him.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
But wait... aren't the donuts going to cost a few silver or something? See... you're *wrong*! Those donuts and, hence, the entire update, is not free!! I have an entire army of people who agree with me!!
...
You want me to provide links to some of them?
...
Fanboy!!!
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
But wait... aren't the donuts going to cost a few silver or something? See... you're *wrong*! Those donuts and, hence, the entire update, is not free!! I have an entire army of people who agree with me!!
...
You want me to provide links to some of them?
...
Fanboy!!!
Heh... you don't need proof... since if Smithy says it... it IS FACT!LOL! Nevermind the FACT, that he's never once shown a link for anyone outside of this forum ever agreeing with his stance in this thread. Nevermind the FACT, that I've provided thread after thread of PROOF that he is wrong. Wouldn't a logical person think that the one continually evading providing any proof for his line of thinking is the "boy"? Whether it be "hate-boy" or "fan-boy"... "boyism" in my opinion is defined by having baseless (in other words, lacking proof) ideas. So, since I and others have continually linked sites showing him wrong... who would be the "boy"?
That's my theory on him anyway, and here is a definition that I think deserves some forum space:
schizophrenia: Any of a group of psychotic disorders usually characterized by withdrawal from reality, illogical patterns of thinking, delusions, and hallucinations, and accompanied in varying degrees by other emotional, behavioral, or intellectual disturbances. Schizophrenia is often associated with dopamine imbalances in the brain and defects of the frontal lobe and may have an underlying genetic cause.
There you go! We've diagnosed the problem.
Sorry to interrupt the fanboy lovefest but I thought since you seem to think I made up the definition of the word free I would post Webster's for clarity. I know you will go on about Mr. Webster being an LotRO basher to discredit their definition but for rational people it will suffice.
OK, please go back to patting yourselves on the back for spinning reality out of shape and attacking people who post reasonable views that differ from your own.
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Thank you for that Smith. Not sure anyone here needed to know the meaning of Free in that context. But I'm flattered you went through the extra effort to share your skill with a dictionary with us. It's very impressive.
Hey look.. I can highlight stuff in yellow too!
So, using the highlighted entry as the definition...
It costs us nothing extra to obtain the updates.
Turbine charges nothing extra for the updates
Thus, the Content Updates... are in fact free.
Oh, hey... I have a question for you; a serious question... I want to qualify something with you quick...
If you feel that the content updates aren't free, because you are "charged for them via the monthly subscription"... Then what do you categorize SOE's "Adventure Packs", or otherwise, full retail expansions packs as? I mean, you *are* paying extra for those...
By your reasoning, wouldn't that mean they're charging you *twice* to play the game? The $14 monthly subscription fee *and* the $30-$40 or so for the expansion? By your definition, wouldn't that be considered a rip off? I mean if they're already charging you for added content via the subscription fee, how can they get away with charging you *twice* for it? Shouldn't they at least not charge you the monthly fee for the next couple months to even it out? I mean, the cost of one expansion pack is easily equal to at least 2 months of service. I can understand, maybe, paying for the packaging and such if you buy it at a store. But what about those who download it? By your logic customers are *really* getting screwed on expansions!
See.. It just don't click that way. It makes more sense that the bi-monthly content updates are free while full retail expansions cost extra. I'm paying extra for the retail expansions, while I'm not for the bi-monthly updates. Everything just falls neatly into place in that context.
Feel free to keep debating against common-sense and proper use of context... Keep sharing your "mad skillz" with a dictionary with us.
If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go explore more of the areas from the free Evendim update...
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I would quote Websters on 'obfuscate' but clearly you know the meaning of that word even if you struggle in understanding how someone might object to calling any kind of updates to a pay to play subscription game as free. The point isn't even if the updates are 'free' or not, the point is how a bunch of fanboys can object so strongly to someone saying they are not 'free'. I think it is wrong to say they are free as you must pay a monthly fee to access the new, and old, content which - disagree if you want. But to demononize and vilify someone for arguing they are not free shows how you merit the fanboy label as it is clearly not an outrageous position to suggest they are not free.
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In answer to that question: about 9 years so far. Turbine has been adding updates to Asheron's Call (and still is) since 1999. Here's a link for you: www.thejackcat.com/AC/Home/NewStuff.htm
Check the lefthand column.You'll see a very long list of archived "New Stuff" pages, which basically have rundowns of everything that's been patched in since March of 2000 (though there was plenty that happened in 1999 as well). The game currently has 725 dungeons. Yes, 725, and most of the game world is actually outside those dungeons. If they're following the same development cycle in LoTRO that they followed in AC1, patches are going to look like the first two for the foreseeable future.
You act as if that would be a bad thing if fans of LoTRo were ... in a... wait for it...wait....LoTRo dedicated forum!)
Oh, and one more thing for the record. Like I said in one of the first posts.
Nobody is arguing that the original game IS FREE, because it's not... Duh.
Nobody is arguing that the monthly sub. IS FREE, because it's not ... Duh.
Nobody is arguing that Turbine exclusively provides FREE content ... Duh.
Nobody is arguing what the definition of the word FREE is. ... Duh.
YOU are the one arguing that the FREE Content Updates ... are NOT FREE ... when they ARE.
And, any number of professional web sites agree with us on that. Even using your own definition the UPDATES are FREE.
"not costing or charging anything"
Did the FREE Updates cost anything? NOPE... see they are FREE!
Did Turbine charge anything for the FREE Updates? NOPE... see they are FREE!
Thanks for proving our point for us.
Heh, who knew that the first time you actually provide a link and some proof... it's to prove the opposite of your point. LOL! Good one.
Jenuviel , few have argued that they don't deserve credit for adding content, and for that matter for shipping a polished game (as I said early on here). The issue is if it is particularly unusual a practice in terms of pay to play games that get content updates. I may not have played as many MMOs as some around here but going back to SWG, my first, just about all of them got such updates as part of the developers trying to keep people paying to play. I never thought of any of them as free as I payed to play the game and I think the characterization here by the fans is one of typical overstatement of the otherwise good act. I mean one guy was proclaiming them free expansions for crying out loud as if they realistically qualify as something they could box and sell for $19 or $29 as expansions typically are. the issue isn't really the updates or their 'free' status anymore it is the constant overstatement by LotRO fanboys whether it is spinning wild thoughts about millions of subs or crowing about free expansions from Turbine.
Additionally, given the fact that LotRO is almost entirely quest based (I am sure that will draw contentious comments but come on, LotRO is a quest based game) it stands to reason that they will have to add content regularly so people have things to do and a reason to keep subscribing. It is also of note that many of the things being added are things that where discussed openly during development as things that would not make release and they are just getting them in now - not evil of them of course but not altruistic either. Sorry if the fanboys in this thread are Johnny-come-lately on LotRO but as someone who was following the game for a bit prior to launch it was commonly said that the focus was having the start of the game being polished and thorough and adding other stuff post launch. It is the exact same thing they did with DDO so why people would argue it now that they are doing it with LotRO is beyond me.
First, let me compliment you on such a brilliant argument. I mean the way you contest my points as poorly argued and then explain that it is free because it is free is barely beyond my grasp in terms of its intellectual brilliance and deep logical and analytical perfection.
Second, if they are free then how come I cannot play the new content? Let me suggest an answer - because I did not pay for a subscription the month they where released. Ooops - must pay for subscription in order to access the content - doesn't sound free does it.
Look, piss and moan and vilify all you want - from the guy claiming they are free expansions to the persoanl attacks on anyone who expresses anything but praise for turbine and LotRO it is clear that many of you are all out fanboys who will rage against anything that you view as not support the object of your worship. You argue the semantics of free and beat down anyone who doesn't agree with your brilliant 'it is free because it is free; logic but most reasonable folk will see the point I was arguing about - the overreaction and overexageration by LotRO fans about anything turbine/LotRO.
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See, I knew you had an apology in you. Apology accepted. Now just make sure not to fly off the handle and start attacking people for no good reason from now on.
LOL! Well, exactly what would you do with the Free Upates if you weren't going to subscribe to the game?Hmm... how is this analogy?
You lease a new car. You pay a down payment as well as a monthly cost for this new car.
2 months later the dealer sends you a set of new tires for your car completely taking care of all costs for shipping and installation.
The tires will only work on the new car you just leased.
The new tires that the dealer sent you are a lot nicer and make your car go faster than the ones that came with the car originally.
Anyone who leases that same model car now from that dealer gets the new tires that you were sent, not the older tires you originally leased the car with.
So, are the tires FREE?
Well, I know that Smithy will blow my analogy off as Fanboyism... but what do the rest of you think. How does that analogy work with this thread topic?