You people realize the only people who care about "winning" are the publishers. Game devs dont give a shit who is outselling who, they just want to make a game, a game people will enjoy. To try and get every gamer to enjoy it is an abusurd thought, and only people who control the money actually believe it is possible to do. So they release stupid little press articles that detail how many people are playing , or signed up, which mean absolutly nothing to the people already playing, and if people arent playing yet, they arent going to jump up and run after seeing an article that says how many others are.
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Originally posted by atziluth How about common sense? Going again by their actual statement, how many large "North America based" MMO's are there? I know there are a lot of MMO's out there but look at the criteria. They also have "reported data" so I am assuming they are using press release's like the rest of us. Each game has data that it reports in some way (look at WOW and the releases they use to mention their numbers). If WOW is the only game that is North America based and reports it data, then any game that is North America based and reports its data its naturally second! Logic wins again. So a fair claim in my book. Basing a claim on lack of data is misleading. Not every company releases current reports on subscribers and especially not characters. That would be on par with me making a statement like "Based off of known reported data I am the highest paid person on these forums." That statement is misleading because there is no way for me to definitively know what everyone on these boards make. Just like there is know definitive way for Turbine to know the character numbers of other NA MMOs. Since you seem to be confused on exactly how many there are let me list some. WoW, EQ, EQII, AC, LotRO, CoH, CoV, DDO, DAoC, MO, SB, SWG, UO, VG, SL, and that is just off the top of my head. If we are going purely off NA MMOs and number of characters WoW is #1 with Second Life coming in at #2. There is no way LoTRO beats out Second Life so there statement is a direct lie and misleading. Thanks for playing. Please show me where they claim to be the second largest MMO in the OP"s linked press release. No other source of data is relevant since we are only talking about the claims in the press release. "Since its launch in April, LOTRO has quickly become the second largest MMORPG with an estimated 4 million characters calling Middle-earth their home." That is a direct quote from the OPs post. Notice how they fail to mention NA anywhere except a small disclaimer. The certainly implied being the second largest MMO period. There would be no need to have a disclaimer if their announcement was accurately worded. I disagree that the comment is "misleading" or is "false advertising". That type of advertising is done on a daily basis and it is a fact of life. I highly doubt Turbine, Blizzard or any MMO would deliberately lie in a complete and utterly false way about their subscriber numbers because the number of subscribers does not equal more subscribers. They use deliberate terminology to allow the definition of "subscriber" or "accounts" or "characters" to benefit their definition. Except these terms already are defined by industry standards... You cannot change the definition of the term when it is already set sorry. I have already pointed out where Turbine lied. Second Life has more characters and close to 5 million users. This type of advertising is used every day... It still does not make it right. Quantifying validity based on how often it is used would be a horrible bench mark for any society. I also agree that the consumer is responsible for keeping the firms honest. However, marketers and their firms know well that most people are too busy to care in today's society so they get away with 99% of slightly misleading or not-fully-true information because the consumer allows it. My point is Turbine's definition of "characters" is irrelevant because it does not hurt anyone or benefit anyone. It is a simple definition and in the end, it is their game and they are allowed to define whatever they want in any manner that fits them. I view the definition that they use as a fair term and accurate using their information. Within the context of their game yes... not within the context of the industry. Terms such as subscriber, Character, account, are already predefined in the industry and no single entity can redefine those terms. Oh and yeah, I hold a Bachelor's and Master's degree and working on the PhD. Is it in marketing or law? If not then those degrees are useless to this discussion and void. My statement was made rhetorically since it was originally in your post.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Like a month ago, didnt they announce like 175,000 subscribers? How the heck is there now 4 million. They lie like Blizzard.
However LoTro is a good game no less : )
And how exactly is either Turbine or Blizzard lying? I think the real problem is a lack of reading comprehension on your part. For one, Turbine never announced 175k subscribers.
Reporting the number of characters does seem to be a bit over the top, even for marketing folks. I rember when I played LotRO i had 5 characters on one server, and 3 characters on all of the other servers.... so I guess I had a total of about 20-25 total characters at a minimum.... but only really played 2 of them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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My take is this... Marketing is *always* shady, from any company. Like was said in an earlier post - take those *realllly* tiny disclaimers at the bottom of TV advertisements, or the guy talking 100 MPH in a radio ad... They all have "hidden definitions" or "terms" that they deliberately keep that way fully expecting that most people won't take the time to learn what they are. It's only barely honest and highly underhanded. Thus why I hate marketing.
I'm sure that, via what ever metrics Turbine's Marketing dept. used, their definition is accurate. You might have to seriously split hairs to reach it, but I'm sure they could back it up if openly challenged (by someone to whom they are accountable - ie. not anyone in this forum).
At the end of the day.... does it matter? Is anyone already playing and enjoying the game going to stop because of this? Likely not. Is anyone who had already decided not to play it going to start? Again, likely not. For someone on the fence about it... they could go either way I suppose.
So really.. who cares? They're numbers put out by a marketing department of a company trying to promote their product. What a unique concept.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
this was quite an interesting post from the US forums concerning this whole 4million characters issue;
Originally Posted by Khafar
I can pretty much guarantee that there weren't 280K unique logins on 8 EU servers - that would mean 45K accounts per server, which simply isn't possible. I've seen what this server tech can do in both AC2 and in LOTRO, and counted the redline numbers they were getting during stress tests in beta. It was about 3000 for a fully populated server. These games run tie ratios (the ratio of peak populations to total active accounts) of between 10% and 20%, depending on the game.
So even if you assume that 8 EU servers each have a peak population at the limit (3K) and a minimal tie ratio of 10%, you still only get 30K subscribers per server (240K for 8). It's highly unlikely that they're even close to that full, or there would be all sorts of complaints about server queues and long waits to get in. It's also unlikely that the tie ratio is as low as 10% -- that's a number you tend to see in games that have been around quite some time and have a fairly high rate of multi-boxing.
Make a better guess (2K and 15%), and you get an EU server population of 8 * 2K / .15 = ~110K. Add in the 13 more servers for NA and Japan, and you'd get a total of around 280K. Which lines up with a comment that Jeff Anderson made a few months back of "believing" that they were the #2 western MMO now. If he's not sure one way or the other, then they're in the ballpark of 250K.
Khafar
(though EU actually has 11 servers,europe got a few new ones about a month after launch including a RP one)
Circa 250K,this figure seems a little more accurate than some of the claims of 500k or so,and also would give evidence of the recent server overload messages some realms have been getting -perhaps some are seeing an increase. Only a few million or so to buckle WoW then...
They should have just said "we can't touch Blizzard's numbers but we kicked SOE's ass hard". Everyone could have agreed on that.
I agree - but as we have discussed and argued about elsewhere Turbine is a big spin company. They might do allot right in your eyes, even in mine - but they run around spinning things on the edge of outright falsification.
Originally posted by WSIMike
I play the game. I'm having a ball. I see no shortage of people - in even some of the most out-of-the-way spots. Ergo, there are plenty of people for me to interact with, if I choose. At the end of the day, that's all that matters. Seriously... why do some people have this driving need to justify "their game", or to prove that they're playing "the best game" by posting this stuff? I'd said this in another thread.. It boils down to the whole "my MMO can beat up your MMO" mentality. It's, petty, it's hollow and it's ridiculous. Just play what *you* enjoy, because *you* enjoy it. That's the only reason you need. As for the figures... If some supreme, Omniscient being came down themself and declared LoTRO's numbers, there are people who are still going to cry out "LIES! They're inflating their numbers to mislead people!" There are people who are just not happy unless they see a game that they don't like failing. If they don't *see* it failing, they look for every little thing they can point to to "prove" that it's failing. That's just the way of things. Some people who like a game think everyone should like it. Some people who don't like a game think no-one should like it.
I cannot really disagree with the gist of your comments, but certainly you can understand how people get annoyed at the constant braggadocios/exaggeration based marketing by Turbine. Having been through this before in other discussions the 4 million character thing kind of sums it up - I mean they could have made 2 million themselves just to make an impressive sounding number (if it is even reality based) . Besides that it is just ridiculous the way they keep pursuing and spinning things as WoW-type success while not releasing any proof of their claims.
I am not saying it is their obligation to release numbers, or even that they should - but so long as they are not they should STFU with the hinting, spinning, marketing, and other such crap that is clearly all about making it seem they are doing something they are otherwise unprepared to back up with facts. It is just bad form IMHO on their part and it has been done this way since well before launch even. Again, not arguing that the game is a failure or a major success or anything in between - just saying that Turbine should put up or shut up in terms of their constant vagueneries about WoW type numbers, the greatest this, and the 'when we break ten million I'll give you a call' crap.
Originally posted by WSIMike I hate marketing departments.
I agree, I hate being marketted to, or spun, or any thing of the sort. One of the reasons LotRO/Turbine rubs me the wrong way because Turbine is just so, so, so marketed and puts out so much spin.
Originally posted by WSIMike At the end of the day.... does it matter? Is anyone already playing and enjoying the game going to stop because of this? Likely not. Is anyone who had already decided not to play it going to start? Again, likely not. For someone on the fence about it... they could go either way I suppose. So really.. who cares? They're numbers put out by a marketing department of a company trying to promote their product. What a unique concept.
Sorry to quote you so much - not intending to pick on you I swear. No it doesn't matter and yes alot of companies do it. But alot of companies/developers release games full of bugs and that sort of thing and I don't patronize them. I don't mind a company taking honest features and such and advertising and marketing them - what I find wrong about Turbine is the way they go beyond advertising the things they make and have to creating false things to tout such as this 4 million thing (and the other similar things they have said over and over again). I mean it is one thing to be WoW and brag about being this phenom and try to attract folk on that bandwagon - but here ocmes turbine who made a good game (not my thing but it is a quality production in terms of being built well and appealing to many) but do they bet on those chips? No, they try to play it off as if the game is something it has yet to be established as, a WoW type phenom. In short, they are trying to cash in on WoWs success in a way and it jsut sits wrong with me. I suppose it is like when a big movie comes out and does well next thing you know some copycat comes out of a similar genre/theme - it is just cheesy trying to cash in on what others have done, or on false imagery or buzz rather than the realities of what you have crated/made.
Anyways, I hope that gets the poitn across as to why I find it annoying - and it isn't just the one 4 million characters thing - it has been the steady stream of similar things from before day 1 - this is a clear and intentional strategy to try to banwagon people on instead of advertising the game on its real merits, of which it has many I should think.
Has Turbine lied or mislead people concerning lotro? I understand the marketing beef..i dont like marketing either, 4 mil chars created is kinda lame imo...either tell the subs or dont imo. But i dont see what the problem is here. Its better than claiming they sold 350k expansion packs like some other company. Wheres your post against that? Or is Turbine your only concern?
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
@smith Has Turbine lied or mislead people concerning lotro? I understand the marketing beef..i dont like marketing either, 4 mil chars created is kinda lame imo...either tell the subs or dont imo. But i dont see what the problem is here. Its better than claiming they sold 350k expansion packs like some other company. Wheres your post against that? Or is Turbine your only concern?
Which company was that (with the 350k xpacs)?
I just wondered because it didn't ring any bells off hand. I don't really follow market spin all that much. I mean after SWG when they said "we have 80 percent vet account retention"... I kinda stopped reading market stuff ever.
I think the only reason I even ask was... Reading the news today on the financial release from Vivendi games division.. being up 91% from last year (due mostly to burning crusade).
It just hit a relative note and made me curious.
As to this thread in general.. I have no real opinion on it.. and whatever they think works for them.
It won't matter how many million accounts wow has... or how many million toons lotro's has.. if you don't like the game these things won't influence you. I've never understood spin... its like commercials... I've never bought anything because of one.
@smith Has Turbine lied or mislead people concerning lotro? I understand the marketing beef..i dont like marketing either, 4 mil chars created is kinda lame imo...either tell the subs or dont imo. But i dont see what the problem is here. Its better than claiming they sold 350k expansion packs like some other company. Wheres your post against that? Or is Turbine your only concern?
Which company was that (with the 350k xpacs)?
I just wondered because it didn't ring any bells off hand. I don't really follow market spin all that much. I mean after SWG when they said "we have 80 percent vet account retention"... I kinda stopped reading market stuff ever.
I think the only reason I even ask was... Reading the news today on the financial release from Vivendi games division.. being up 91% from last year (due mostly to burning crusade).
It just hit a relative note and made me curious.
As to this thread in general.. I have no real opinion on it.. and whatever they think works for them.
It won't matter how many million accounts wow has... or how many million toons lotro's has.. if you don't like the game these things won't influence you. I've never understood spin... its like commercials... I've never bought anything because of one.
I believe it was EQ2..dont have a link handy. just remember it being discussed a little bit. But these things do influence people somewhat. If its known your game is dying..that may affect a potential customer. Not me or you, but appearently some or they wouldnt do it at all.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Here are a few fun facts that people like to just gloss over, or completely extrapolate on erroneously.
1. Please, for the love of god stop with the whole "WoW's numbers are total accounts created, 7 million are chinese bots, Blizzard lies and a friend told me they only have 800k" and other such hogwash. As was posted in this thread, and every other thread pertaining to WoW's numbers, they are quite clearly defined, easily obtainable to distinguish geographic demographics, and represent active, paid subscriptions. End of story. 2. 240k connections over 3 days DOES NOT equate to 240k unique player accounts. The same players could easily be logging over over and over again. You can draw no conclusions from this data (if it is even accurate). 3. The fine print on the whole "Second largest MMORPG" reads as follows: "Developed in North America". Heck, I don't know why they don't just take it a step further, and say its the largest MMORPG in the word... that was developed in Boston. 4. Proclaiming 4 million characters is typical of the Turbine marketing machine. Does anyone remember DDO being touted as the "fastest growing MMORPG"? 5. Still no new servers since launch.
why make new servers if the ones up can haddle about 10k conections? ohh wait mabe to have more then half of the servers empty like wow has now? almost 500 servers for NA and Europe what a joke, unless their servers can't handle more then 500 players online lol.
Please feel free to provide proof that the LOTRO servers can handle about 10k connections. I'll wait.
Oh, and yeah, making nearly $1 billion a year with WoW is really a joke. I mean, gosh, I'm sure the guys at Blizzard are just so ashamed, putting out such a joke of a game. Seriously, do you even read to the utter tripe you spew out?
@smith Has Turbine lied or mislead people concerning lotro? I understand the marketing beef..i dont like marketing either, 4 mil chars created is kinda lame imo...either tell the subs or dont imo. But i dont see what the problem is here. Its better than claiming they sold 350k expansion packs like some other company. Wheres your post against that? Or is Turbine your only concern?
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
I'm pretty sure I've already said this.. but this is why I hate marketing. They can really go wayyyyy overboard at times.
To me, the ad that AgtSmith scanned above could also be read with the "Millions of Players" referring to potential players with the one game to rule them all. But the way he read it is every bit as viable and yeah... a bit.. umm... over-baked.
I mean, I'm all for advertising and such with banner ads, full-page ads and what-not.. but I'll agree Turbine's marketing dept. is laying it on way thick.
I'm wondering if it might not back-fire on them - ie. people getting sick of seeing it advertised all over the place.
It's almost like Turbine learned a lesson from AC2 and went *completely* the other direction.
In one example, it's a good thing... in this one it's bad.
The good example is that they were heavily criticized for having really large areas of land with nothing in them in AC2 - entirely wasted real-estate that players would still have to venture through at some point. They seem to have gone the other direction with LoTRO where it seems you can turn off a road at any random point and you're bound to come across some interesting location or quest-related spot before long.
On the bad side, though, they were criticized for not advertising AC2 enough and that was widely pointed to as a big reason why many believe the game didn't do better later in its lifetime, particularly with its expansion - alot of people hadn't even heard of it. So, perhaps this is a reactionary response to that where they are going to the other extreme.. except it's not necessarily a good thing.
I mean, hell.. I really enjoy LoTRO, and frankly, numbers mean very little to me. I don't care if there's 100k or 10 million playing it. I enjoy it and that's why I play. However, I find it irksome to see some of the questionable marketing they're using.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
@smith Has Turbine lied or mislead people concerning lotro? I understand the marketing beef..i dont like marketing either, 4 mil chars created is kinda lame imo...either tell the subs or dont imo. But i dont see what the problem is here. Its better than claiming they sold 350k expansion packs like some other company. Wheres your post against that? Or is Turbine your only concern?
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
They should change that picture for 4 million characters!! LOL
Well WSIMike, I am glad we found some common ground on this as before I think we where butting heads over semantics more than anything else. I agree that it is really irrelevant whether 10 or 10 million people play a game if you like or dislike it. I just find in this day and age that companies, media, etc go way, way, way to far into the whole 'create good buzz' thing and forget that good buzz is supposed to be the result of a good product. LotRO, while not my kind of game, has many good elements and attributes and turbine would serve themselves far, far better emphasizing those elements and attributes then continually playing this hint and hype game alluding to LotRO as some kind of second coming of WoW.
And it goes beyond a few ads, the comment I mentioned elsewhere and link'd here with the CEO making the off hand remark about 'call you when we get to 10 million' and the 'second biggest MMO made in North America' thing. To me, when I hear those kind of remarks I think (and forgive me for bringing politics into it but it is relevant in terms of an example) of the whole Bill Clinton 'it depends on your definition of what is is' comments or the way he always parsed words to the point that they lost their meaning.
LotRO has enough positives to stand on its own, Turbine should quit with the hype and just be honest about what LotRO is (whether it is 10k subs or 10 million - and either announce the subs or stop talking about it) and I think they will do well. If they continue to hold it up as the biggest thing since WoW without backing that claim up then I think they will alienate people and stir people who are not fans to come down harder on the game than they otherwise might. it is one thing to go see a flick and not like it, it is antoher to hear for weeks it is the greatest movie ever and then when you see it you think it sucks. With the later you are far more likely to be vocally critical because so much hype and expectation was created that the let down was far greater. That is what happens with LotRO in many cases I think, and when the fans and fanboys get involved in the hype too it just gets worse.
@smith Has Turbine lied or mislead people concerning lotro? I understand the marketing beef..i dont like marketing either, 4 mil chars created is kinda lame imo...either tell the subs or dont imo. But i dont see what the problem is here. Its better than claiming they sold 350k expansion packs like some other company. Wheres your post against that? Or is Turbine your only concern?
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
Ok..so they havent lied or mislead their customers...its their marketing the game as a huge success without any evidence. I guess i can understand that. Thats an old ad from during the world tour..no idea if they're still using it. Marketing is lame to me whether true or an illusion. Personally I think giving a handful of college students a dime bag to come up with marketing for a video game would yield better results than most paid professionals. Being that the audience video game makers are marketing to uses those high dollar full page magazine ads to brake up their weed on and are virtually immune to marketing in the first place.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
That scan came from the September 2007 issue of MaximumPC - so it is an ongoing campaign. but as I said, and not to belabor the point, it is not just one add or one statement - it is an ongoing campaign to portray the game as some kind of WoW-type phenom. It goes back to the big pre-order open BETA claims of millions of this and that. Coupled with the overzealous fans, fanboys as the terminology goes, who have been saying the same thing for months before and after launch and it just makes for an easy target.
As I said, and I mean it, I don't care if LotRO has a billion subs or a few dozen - I just cannot stand the braggadocios style of hyperbole from Turbine and the fans when their 'claims' are unsubstantiated (and even unlikely given the semantical tricks they keep playing instead of just announcing they have those numbers). It is all fluff and no meat - symbolism over substance.
Take WoW, while I know enough even having not played to know it is not my type of game I would never bash the game other than saying what I just said because it has earned its success. WoW has millions of subs so it has earned the right to brag if they chose to do so, fans or DEVs. Without wanting to ignite a hot issue it is allot like Apple marketing. Apple runs those cute ads with the geeky Bill Gates guy and the slick cute kid and says things like "Macs don't get viruses' and 'things just work with a Mac' when it sounds all good but reality is it just doesn't hold up to reality. it is image management and creation not touting legitimate features or attributes of a product. Like the iPhone - remember all the hype around launch about possible riots and the worries of shortages and all that? Turns out that the first week or month or whatever where the Apple floated rumors where that they sold 1 million+ where patently false, they sold like a couple hundred thousand. While I am sure that is good, and those people love their iPhones - a couple hundred K units is nowhere near remarkable in terms of the broader smart phone market which remains to this day quite dominated by their competitors. it is just all part of todays media image creation and management spin - it is something I find very distasteful and disrespectful to the public and consumers as a whole.
LotRO hasn't earned anything, or if it has (again unlikely it matches the claims as they have yet to add servers and haven't announced what would be an industry milestone in reaching WoW type millions), yet they keep going on bragging and hyping as if they have earned it. It is just tacky and dishonest in my book.
P.S. Since i know the passion of Apple fans let me provide a source for the inevitable counter claim about PC VS Apple security; although there are many as it is quite known to experts, here is one.
I guess I understand what your saying. I personally think your looking way to much into this..but thats just me. I dont see saying 4 mil chars created as anything other than 4 mil chars created. But if you say there is an ongoing campaign..ill take your word on it, not gonna do research or anything. If so, then lame. And Turbine should do better. When they lie or intentionally mislead..lemme know. i might get interested.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Fair enough, I think the 'ongoing' part is shown to be a fair description when you consider the things I have mentioned/shown here make that clear enough. Consider the Slashdot comments by the Turbine CEO, the ad I scanned which has been running all year as I understand in numerous periodicals, the quote from the OP, along with the similar hype about the largest/million man or whatever world tour way back when) and the natural (albeit quite vocal and quite grandiose) fan claims of game superiority and WoW killer and such and it becomes easy to see a pattern.
LotRO is a good enough game to not resort to this type of dishonest or misleading hyperbole is all I am saying - but as long as they and their fans continue to spin it up this way I, and lots of others, will find it interesting to oppose thier claims and tactics.
Fair enough, I think the 'ongoing' part is shown to be a fair description when you consider the things I have mentioned/shown here make that clear enough. Consider the Slashdot comments by the Turbine CEO, the ad I scanned which has been running all year as I understand in numerous periodicals, the quote from the OP, along with the similar hype about the largest/million man or whatever world tour way back when) and the natural (albeit quite vocal and quite grandiose) fan claims of game superiority and WoW killer and such and it becomes easy to see a pattern.
LotRO is a good enough game to not resort to this type of dishonest or misleading hyperbole is all I am saying - but as long as they and their fans continue to spin it up this way I, and lots of others, will find it interesting to oppose thier claims and tactics.
well, to be fair now...
Mr. Anderson: Well, besides what I just said probably not. I'd love to, I'd love to, because I think people would be excited about where we are already, barely a month out of the gate. We really don't, though ... it's kind of our policy not to talk about it? People always gave us a hard time; they always said we did it because our number were bad. Now that we have even great numbers we still don't do it. (laughs) So at least maybe we're consistent. When we break ten million, I'll give you a call, how about that?
Thats the quote your using as an example of an ongoing campaign? lol c'mon.
The quote from the OP im guessing was the #2 mmorpg claim..didnt they clarify in the same article you got the quote from that meant MMO's built in the US? Or maybe that was one of the replies...too lazy to recheck and it was to uninteresting to re-read.
The world tour thing clearly says over a million "to be invited" right in the title. I guess if your not very smart you would think that they have 1 million e-mail adds of 1 million people that will get an official invitation...so i guess you can have that one along with the advertisement. Seriously, I think you can back up your ongoing campaign accusation a little better. Im not asking you to take the time to actually do it, just saying what you presented there is on par with turbines marketing,
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The entire marketing strategy of using hyperbole when characterizing the number of subs strikes me as wrong headed. The game has a ton of strengths that they could capitalize on. The gaming press went ape over it. It's the most faithful video game adaptation of LoTR ever produced. They could hype it as a laid back WoW for adults (I can see some really cool adds comparing screen shots from the two). There are any number of ways that they could be hyping the game without coming across like dicks. I don't see why their marketing department feels that exaggerating subs is the best strategy for getting the word out.
Even apart from that, the print add that Agent Smith refers to has always mystified me. It does not make me think Lord of the Rings. It makes me think I'm packed into the middle of a concert in the desert wishing like hell that I had one of those 8 dollar bottles of water.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Am I actually witnessing LoTRO fans and non-fans agreeing on something (more or less)?
.... good thing I'm sitting down.
O.o
:-p
Yeah, I agree, Yeebo, there are many other things they could promote that would be verifiable (ie. not involving subscriber numbers or anything else that hasn't otherwise been released to the public) and not require dodgey phrasing.
I do agree, though, that the quote from Anderson's Slash-Dot comment was more of a facetious comment, in the context that they never release their sales numbers, even when they're doing well. I didn't take that as a claim or prediction of success or anything. He could have said "When we reach 10 billion I'll let you know" and it would have been the same . Plus, I don't think SlashDot really gets the same number of eyeballs as something like, say, IGN or PC-Gamer.
I don't consider anything he said in that interview to be part of any marketing itself. I didn't read any of it that way. I think he was being more off-the-cuff with his answers and threw that remark in as a sort of tongue-in-cheek comment. I make comments like that all the time (not specifically about selling games of course and mean nothing by it. I do end up having to explain it to some people though, because they take it literally.
If anything, I think they know better than to get "cocky" about stuff like that, even with their great reviews. AC2 got amazing reviews as well when it was first released... and yet they discontinued it 2 years ago. So, ratings and the such aren't to be taken for granted, and they're certainly not "etched in stone", as opinions can and do change - especially in a group as fickle as MMO players.
I consider the full page ads and even the press releases and such to be marketing, and those are the things that bug me, personally.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
You people realize the only people who care about "winning" are the publishers. Game devs dont give a shit who is outselling who, they just want to make a game, a game people will enjoy. To try and get every gamer to enjoy it is an abusurd thought, and only people who control the money actually believe it is possible to do. So they release stupid little press articles that detail how many people are playing , or signed up, which mean absolutly nothing to the people already playing, and if people arent playing yet, they arent going to jump up and run after seeing an article that says how many others are.
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Like a month ago, didnt they announce like 175,000 subscribers? How the heck is there now 4 million. They lie like Blizzard.
However LoTro is a good game no less : )
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-Atziluth-
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Four million characters is very probable, note this is characters, not subscribers.
I don't think either company is lying, as independent statistic sites also quote similar numbers.
And how exactly is either Turbine or Blizzard lying? I think the real problem is a lack of reading comprehension on your part. For one, Turbine never announced 175k subscribers.
Reporting the number of characters does seem to be a bit over the top, even for marketing folks. I rember when I played LotRO i had 5 characters on one server, and 3 characters on all of the other servers.... so I guess I had a total of about 20-25 total characters at a minimum.... but only really played 2 of them.
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My take is this... Marketing is *always* shady, from any company. Like was said in an earlier post - take those *realllly* tiny disclaimers at the bottom of TV advertisements, or the guy talking 100 MPH in a radio ad... They all have "hidden definitions" or "terms" that they deliberately keep that way fully expecting that most people won't take the time to learn what they are. It's only barely honest and highly underhanded. Thus why I hate marketing.
I'm sure that, via what ever metrics Turbine's Marketing dept. used, their definition is accurate. You might have to seriously split hairs to reach it, but I'm sure they could back it up if openly challenged (by someone to whom they are accountable - ie. not anyone in this forum).
At the end of the day.... does it matter? Is anyone already playing and enjoying the game going to stop because of this? Likely not. Is anyone who had already decided not to play it going to start? Again, likely not. For someone on the fence about it... they could go either way I suppose.
So really.. who cares? They're numbers put out by a marketing department of a company trying to promote their product. What a unique concept.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
this was quite an interesting post from the US forums concerning this whole 4million characters issue;
So even if you assume that 8 EU servers each have a peak population at the limit (3K) and a minimal tie ratio of 10%, you still only get 30K subscribers per server (240K for 8). It's highly unlikely that they're even close to that full, or there would be all sorts of complaints about server queues and long waits to get in. It's also unlikely that the tie ratio is as low as 10% -- that's a number you tend to see in games that have been around quite some time and have a fairly high rate of multi-boxing.
Make a better guess (2K and 15%), and you get an EU server population of 8 * 2K / .15 = ~110K. Add in the 13 more servers for NA and Japan, and you'd get a total of around 280K. Which lines up with a comment that Jeff Anderson made a few months back of "believing" that they were the #2 western MMO now. If he's not sure one way or the other, then they're in the ballpark of 250K.
Khafar
(though EU actually has 11 servers,europe got a few new ones about a month after launch including a RP one)
Circa 250K,this figure seems a little more accurate than some of the claims of 500k or so,and also would give evidence of the recent server overload messages some realms have been getting -perhaps some are seeing an increase. Only a few million or so to buckle WoW then...
I cannot really disagree with the gist of your comments, but certainly you can understand how people get annoyed at the constant braggadocios/exaggeration based marketing by Turbine. Having been through this before in other discussions the 4 million character thing kind of sums it up - I mean they could have made 2 million themselves just to make an impressive sounding number (if it is even reality based) . Besides that it is just ridiculous the way they keep pursuing and spinning things as WoW-type success while not releasing any proof of their claims.
I am not saying it is their obligation to release numbers, or even that they should - but so long as they are not they should STFU with the hinting, spinning, marketing, and other such crap that is clearly all about making it seem they are doing something they are otherwise unprepared to back up with facts. It is just bad form IMHO on their part and it has been done this way since well before launch even. Again, not arguing that the game is a failure or a major success or anything in between - just saying that Turbine should put up or shut up in terms of their constant vagueneries about WoW type numbers, the greatest this, and the 'when we break ten million I'll give you a call' crap.
I agree, I hate being marketted to, or spun, or any thing of the sort. One of the reasons LotRO/Turbine rubs me the wrong way because Turbine is just so, so, so marketed and puts out so much spin.
Sorry to quote you so much - not intending to pick on you I swear. No it doesn't matter and yes alot of companies do it. But alot of companies/developers release games full of bugs and that sort of thing and I don't patronize them. I don't mind a company taking honest features and such and advertising and marketing them - what I find wrong about Turbine is the way they go beyond advertising the things they make and have to creating false things to tout such as this 4 million thing (and the other similar things they have said over and over again). I mean it is one thing to be WoW and brag about being this phenom and try to attract folk on that bandwagon - but here ocmes turbine who made a good game (not my thing but it is a quality production in terms of being built well and appealing to many) but do they bet on those chips? No, they try to play it off as if the game is something it has yet to be established as, a WoW type phenom. In short, they are trying to cash in on WoWs success in a way and it jsut sits wrong with me. I suppose it is like when a big movie comes out and does well next thing you know some copycat comes out of a similar genre/theme - it is just cheesy trying to cash in on what others have done, or on false imagery or buzz rather than the realities of what you have crated/made.
Anyways, I hope that gets the poitn across as to why I find it annoying - and it isn't just the one 4 million characters thing - it has been the steady stream of similar things from before day 1 - this is a clear and intentional strategy to try to banwagon people on instead of advertising the game on its real merits, of which it has many I should think.
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@smith
Has Turbine lied or mislead people concerning lotro? I understand the marketing beef..i dont like marketing either, 4 mil chars created is kinda lame imo...either tell the subs or dont imo. But i dont see what the problem is here. Its better than claiming they sold 350k expansion packs like some other company. Wheres your post against that? Or is Turbine your only concern?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I just wondered because it didn't ring any bells off hand. I don't really follow market spin all that much. I mean after SWG when they said "we have 80 percent vet account retention"... I kinda stopped reading market stuff ever.
I think the only reason I even ask was... Reading the news today on the financial release from Vivendi games division.. being up 91% from last year (due mostly to burning crusade).
It just hit a relative note and made me curious.
As to this thread in general.. I have no real opinion on it.. and whatever they think works for them.
It won't matter how many million accounts wow has... or how many million toons lotro's has.. if you don't like the game these things won't influence you. I've never understood spin... its like commercials... I've never bought anything because of one.
I just wondered because it didn't ring any bells off hand. I don't really follow market spin all that much. I mean after SWG when they said "we have 80 percent vet account retention"... I kinda stopped reading market stuff ever.
I think the only reason I even ask was... Reading the news today on the financial release from Vivendi games division.. being up 91% from last year (due mostly to burning crusade).
It just hit a relative note and made me curious.
As to this thread in general.. I have no real opinion on it.. and whatever they think works for them.
It won't matter how many million accounts wow has... or how many million toons lotro's has.. if you don't like the game these things won't influence you. I've never understood spin... its like commercials... I've never bought anything because of one.
I believe it was EQ2..dont have a link handy. just remember it being discussed a little bit. But these things do influence people somewhat. If its known your game is dying..that may affect a potential customer. Not me or you, but appearently some or they wouldnt do it at all.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
why make new servers if the ones up can haddle about 10k conections? ohh wait mabe to have more then half of the servers empty like wow has now? almost 500 servers for NA and Europe what a joke, unless their servers can't handle more then 500 players online lol.
Please feel free to provide proof that the LOTRO servers can handle about 10k connections. I'll wait.Oh, and yeah, making nearly $1 billion a year with WoW is really a joke. I mean, gosh, I'm sure the guys at Blizzard are just so ashamed, putting out such a joke of a game. Seriously, do you even read to the utter tripe you spew out?
Perception is Reality.
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
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I'm pretty sure I've already said this.. but this is why I hate marketing. They can really go wayyyyy overboard at times.
To me, the ad that AgtSmith scanned above could also be read with the "Millions of Players" referring to potential players with the one game to rule them all. But the way he read it is every bit as viable and yeah... a bit.. umm... over-baked.
I mean, I'm all for advertising and such with banner ads, full-page ads and what-not.. but I'll agree Turbine's marketing dept. is laying it on way thick.
I'm wondering if it might not back-fire on them - ie. people getting sick of seeing it advertised all over the place.
It's almost like Turbine learned a lesson from AC2 and went *completely* the other direction.
In one example, it's a good thing... in this one it's bad.
The good example is that they were heavily criticized for having really large areas of land with nothing in them in AC2 - entirely wasted real-estate that players would still have to venture through at some point. They seem to have gone the other direction with LoTRO where it seems you can turn off a road at any random point and you're bound to come across some interesting location or quest-related spot before long.
On the bad side, though, they were criticized for not advertising AC2 enough and that was widely pointed to as a big reason why many believe the game didn't do better later in its lifetime, particularly with its expansion - alot of people hadn't even heard of it. So, perhaps this is a reactionary response to that where they are going to the other extreme.. except it's not necessarily a good thing.
I mean, hell.. I really enjoy LoTRO, and frankly, numbers mean very little to me. I don't care if there's 100k or 10 million playing it. I enjoy it and that's why I play. However, I find it irksome to see some of the questionable marketing they're using.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
They should change that picture for 4 million characters!! LOL
eqnext.wikia.com
Well WSIMike, I am glad we found some common ground on this as before I think we where butting heads over semantics more than anything else. I agree that it is really irrelevant whether 10 or 10 million people play a game if you like or dislike it. I just find in this day and age that companies, media, etc go way, way, way to far into the whole 'create good buzz' thing and forget that good buzz is supposed to be the result of a good product. LotRO, while not my kind of game, has many good elements and attributes and turbine would serve themselves far, far better emphasizing those elements and attributes then continually playing this hint and hype game alluding to LotRO as some kind of second coming of WoW.
And it goes beyond a few ads, the comment I mentioned elsewhere and link'd here with the CEO making the off hand remark about 'call you when we get to 10 million' and the 'second biggest MMO made in North America' thing. To me, when I hear those kind of remarks I think (and forgive me for bringing politics into it but it is relevant in terms of an example) of the whole Bill Clinton 'it depends on your definition of what is is' comments or the way he always parsed words to the point that they lost their meaning.
LotRO has enough positives to stand on its own, Turbine should quit with the hype and just be honest about what LotRO is (whether it is 10k subs or 10 million - and either announce the subs or stop talking about it) and I think they will do well. If they continue to hold it up as the biggest thing since WoW without backing that claim up then I think they will alienate people and stir people who are not fans to come down harder on the game than they otherwise might. it is one thing to go see a flick and not like it, it is antoher to hear for weeks it is the greatest movie ever and then when you see it you think it sucks. With the later you are far more likely to be vocally critical because so much hype and expectation was created that the let down was far greater. That is what happens with LotRO in many cases I think, and when the fans and fanboys get involved in the hype too it just gets worse.
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I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
Ok..so they havent lied or mislead their customers...its their marketing the game as a huge success without any evidence. I guess i can understand that. Thats an old ad from during the world tour..no idea if they're still using it. Marketing is lame to me whether true or an illusion. Personally I think giving a handful of college students a dime bag to come up with marketing for a video game would yield better results than most paid professionals. Being that the audience video game makers are marketing to uses those high dollar full page magazine ads to brake up their weed on and are virtually immune to marketing in the first place.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
That scan came from the September 2007 issue of MaximumPC - so it is an ongoing campaign. but as I said, and not to belabor the point, it is not just one add or one statement - it is an ongoing campaign to portray the game as some kind of WoW-type phenom. It goes back to the big pre-order open BETA claims of millions of this and that. Coupled with the overzealous fans, fanboys as the terminology goes, who have been saying the same thing for months before and after launch and it just makes for an easy target.
As I said, and I mean it, I don't care if LotRO has a billion subs or a few dozen - I just cannot stand the braggadocios style of hyperbole from Turbine and the fans when their 'claims' are unsubstantiated (and even unlikely given the semantical tricks they keep playing instead of just announcing they have those numbers). It is all fluff and no meat - symbolism over substance.
Take WoW, while I know enough even having not played to know it is not my type of game I would never bash the game other than saying what I just said because it has earned its success. WoW has millions of subs so it has earned the right to brag if they chose to do so, fans or DEVs. Without wanting to ignite a hot issue it is allot like Apple marketing. Apple runs those cute ads with the geeky Bill Gates guy and the slick cute kid and says things like "Macs don't get viruses' and 'things just work with a Mac' when it sounds all good but reality is it just doesn't hold up to reality. it is image management and creation not touting legitimate features or attributes of a product. Like the iPhone - remember all the hype around launch about possible riots and the worries of shortages and all that? Turns out that the first week or month or whatever where the Apple floated rumors where that they sold 1 million+ where patently false, they sold like a couple hundred thousand. While I am sure that is good, and those people love their iPhones - a couple hundred K units is nowhere near remarkable in terms of the broader smart phone market which remains to this day quite dominated by their competitors. it is just all part of todays media image creation and management spin - it is something I find very distasteful and disrespectful to the public and consumers as a whole.
LotRO hasn't earned anything, or if it has (again unlikely it matches the claims as they have yet to add servers and haven't announced what would be an industry milestone in reaching WoW type millions), yet they keep going on bragging and hyping as if they have earned it. It is just tacky and dishonest in my book.
P.S. Since i know the passion of Apple fans let me provide a source for the inevitable counter claim about PC VS Apple security; although there are many as it is quite known to experts, here is one.
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I guess I understand what your saying. I personally think your looking way to much into this..but thats just me. I dont see saying 4 mil chars created as anything other than 4 mil chars created. But if you say there is an ongoing campaign..ill take your word on it, not gonna do research or anything. If so, then lame. And Turbine should do better. When they lie or intentionally mislead..lemme know. i might get interested.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Fair enough, I think the 'ongoing' part is shown to be a fair description when you consider the things I have mentioned/shown here make that clear enough. Consider the Slashdot comments by the Turbine CEO, the ad I scanned which has been running all year as I understand in numerous periodicals, the quote from the OP, along with the similar hype about the largest/million man or whatever world tour way back when) and the natural (albeit quite vocal and quite grandiose) fan claims of game superiority and WoW killer and such and it becomes easy to see a pattern.
LotRO is a good enough game to not resort to this type of dishonest or misleading hyperbole is all I am saying - but as long as they and their fans continue to spin it up this way I, and lots of others, will find it interesting to oppose thier claims and tactics.
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Mr. Anderson: Well, besides what I just said probably not. I'd love to, I'd love to, because I think people would be excited about where we are already, barely a month out of the gate. We really don't, though ... it's kind of our policy not to talk about it? People always gave us a hard time; they always said we did it because our number were bad. Now that we have even great numbers we still don't do it. (laughs) So at least maybe we're consistent. When we break ten million, I'll give you a call, how about that?
Thats the quote your using as an example of an ongoing campaign? lol c'mon.
The quote from the OP im guessing was the #2 mmorpg claim..didnt they clarify in the same article you got the quote from that meant MMO's built in the US? Or maybe that was one of the replies...too lazy to recheck and it was to uninteresting to re-read.
The world tour thing clearly says over a million "to be invited" right in the title. I guess if your not very smart you would think that they have 1 million e-mail adds of 1 million people that will get an official invitation...so i guess you can have that one along with the advertisement. Seriously, I think you can back up your ongoing campaign accusation a little better. Im not asking you to take the time to actually do it, just saying what you presented there is on par with turbines marketing,
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The entire marketing strategy of using hyperbole when characterizing the number of subs strikes me as wrong headed. The game has a ton of strengths that they could capitalize on. The gaming press went ape over it. It's the most faithful video game adaptation of LoTR ever produced. They could hype it as a laid back WoW for adults (I can see some really cool adds comparing screen shots from the two). There are any number of ways that they could be hyping the game without coming across like dicks. I don't see why their marketing department feels that exaggerating subs is the best strategy for getting the word out.
Even apart from that, the print add that Agent Smith refers to has always mystified me. It does not make me think Lord of the Rings. It makes me think I'm packed into the middle of a concert in the desert wishing like hell that I had one of those 8 dollar bottles of water.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Holy cow...
Am I actually witnessing LoTRO fans and non-fans agreeing on something (more or less)?
.... good thing I'm sitting down.
O.o
:-p
Yeah, I agree, Yeebo, there are many other things they could promote that would be verifiable (ie. not involving subscriber numbers or anything else that hasn't otherwise been released to the public) and not require dodgey phrasing.
I do agree, though, that the quote from Anderson's Slash-Dot comment was more of a facetious comment, in the context that they never release their sales numbers, even when they're doing well. I didn't take that as a claim or prediction of success or anything. He could have said "When we reach 10 billion I'll let you know" and it would have been the same . Plus, I don't think SlashDot really gets the same number of eyeballs as something like, say, IGN or PC-Gamer.
I don't consider anything he said in that interview to be part of any marketing itself. I didn't read any of it that way. I think he was being more off-the-cuff with his answers and threw that remark in as a sort of tongue-in-cheek comment. I make comments like that all the time (not specifically about selling games of course
and mean nothing by it. I do end up having to explain it to some people though, because they take it literally.
If anything, I think they know better than to get "cocky" about stuff like that, even with their great reviews. AC2 got amazing reviews as well when it was first released... and yet they discontinued it 2 years ago. So, ratings and the such aren't to be taken for granted, and they're certainly not "etched in stone", as opinions can and do change - especially in a group as fickle as MMO players.
I consider the full page ads and even the press releases and such to be marketing, and those are the things that bug me, personally.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops