Holy cow... Am I actually witnessing LoTRO fans and non-fans agreeing on something (more or less)? .... good thing I'm sitting down. O.o :-p Yeah, I agree, Yeebo, there are many other things they could promote that would be verifiable (ie. not involving subscriber numbers or anything else that hasn't otherwise been released to the public) and not require dodgey phrasing. I do agree, though, that the quote from Anderson's Slash-Dot comment was more of a facetious comment, in the context that they never release their sales numbers, even when they're doing well. I didn't take that as a claim or prediction of success or anything. He could have said "When we reach 10 billion I'll let you know" and it would have been the same . Plus, I don't think SlashDot really gets the same number of eyeballs as something like, say, IGN or PC-Gamer. I don't consider anything he said in that interview to be part of any marketing itself. I didn't read any of it that way. I think he was being more off-the-cuff with his answers and threw that remark in as a sort of tongue-in-cheek comment. I make comments like that all the time (not specifically about selling games of course and mean nothing by it. I do end up having to explain it to some people though, because they take it literally. If anything, I think they know better than to get "cocky" about stuff like that, even with their great reviews. AC2 got amazing reviews as well when it was first released... and yet they discontinued it 2 years ago. So, ratings and the such aren't to be taken for granted, and they're certainly not "etched in stone", as opinions can and do change - especially in a group as fickle as MMO players. I consider the full page ads and even the press releases and such to be marketing, and those are the things that bug me, personally.
I think i mentionned it already. This is no way an attack to the game but an attacked aimed at Turbine... They should know better IMO.
I do agree, though, that the quote from Anderson's Slash-Dot comment was more of a facetious comment, in the context that they never release their sales numbers, even when they're doing well. I didn't take that as a claim or prediction of success or anything. He could have said "When we reach 10 billion I'll let you know" and it would have been the same . Plus, I don't think SlashDot really gets the same number of eyeballs as something like, say, IGN or PC-Gamer.
Mostly, I agree - but when you couple the joke (admittingly a joke) with the 2 largest whatever in North America odd comments and the other things I think it does play into the pattern of them trying, in serious adds and in off hand comments/jokes, to create this image of LotRO having or on the way to millions and millions of subs.
Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi Mr. Anderson: Well, besides what I just said probably not. I'd love to, I'd love to, because I think people would be excited about where we are already, barely a month out of the gate. We really don't, though ... it's kind of our policy not to talk about it? People always gave us a hard time; they always said we did it because our number were bad. Now that we have even great numbers we still don't do it. (laughs) So at least maybe we're consistent. When we break ten million, I'll give you a call, how about that?
Thats the quote your using as an example of an ongoing campaign? lol c'mon. The quote from the OP im guessing was the #2 mmorpg claim..didnt they clarify in the same article you got the quote from that meant MMO's built in the US? Or maybe that was one of the replies...too lazy to recheck and it was to uninteresting to re-read. The world tour thing clearly says over a million "to be invited" right in the title. I guess if your not very smart you would think that they have 1 million e-mail adds of 1 million people that will get an official invitation...so i guess you can have that one along with the advertisement. Seriously, I think you can back up your ongoing campaign accusation a little better. Im not asking you to take the time to actually do it, just saying what you presented there is on par with turbines marketing,
Again, it is just part of the swarmy obfuscation and insinuation that we have achieved something so grand that people should check it out without them having actually achieved that status. The Slashdot comment alone is no big deal - but when their marketing materials and many other public comments are similarly parsed to suggest this unprecedented success and something so big that everyone has to check it out and such you have to call them on it. Despite what you and I might think when a CEO goes on an interview I can bet you big time he knows exactly what he wants to say and has consulted with people about how to say it to be inline with their marketing plan. This in and of itself is not a bad thing, it is the way of high profile things and people. I am not saying the CEO was seriously suggesting they where the 2nd biggest MMO ever or on their way to millions of subs - but the off hand joke was another sly implication of that as the ads, the beta thing, and the 4 million characters thing. You don't get to be a CEO, or get to stay one without measuring all public remarks as their is just to much riding on things to make loose unfettered comments.
Anyways, I think we can all agree that thier is alot of Turbine (and fans follow their lead) sponsored hype and bragging over something they have yet to establish that they have achieved (and in reality probably haven't) and that it is annoying to say the least.
I do agree, though, that the quote from Anderson's Slash-Dot comment was more of a facetious comment, in the context that they never release their sales numbers, even when they're doing well. I didn't take that as a claim or prediction of success or anything. He could have said "When we reach 10 billion I'll let you know" and it would have been the same . Plus, I don't think SlashDot really gets the same number of eyeballs as something like, say, IGN or PC-Gamer.
Mostly, I agree - but when you couple the joke (admittingly a joke) with the 2 largest whatever in North America odd comments and the other things I think it does play into the pattern of them trying, in serious adds and in off hand comments/jokes, to create this image of LotRO having or on the way to millions and millions of subs.
Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi Mr. Anderson: Well, besides what I just said probably not. I'd love to, I'd love to, because I think people would be excited about where we are already, barely a month out of the gate. We really don't, though ... it's kind of our policy not to talk about it? People always gave us a hard time; they always said we did it because our number were bad. Now that we have even great numbers we still don't do it. (laughs) So at least maybe we're consistent. When we break ten million, I'll give you a call, how about that?
Thats the quote your using as an example of an ongoing campaign? lol c'mon. The quote from the OP im guessing was the #2 mmorpg claim..didnt they clarify in the same article you got the quote from that meant MMO's built in the US? Or maybe that was one of the replies...too lazy to recheck and it was to uninteresting to re-read. The world tour thing clearly says over a million "to be invited" right in the title. I guess if your not very smart you would think that they have 1 million e-mail adds of 1 million people that will get an official invitation...so i guess you can have that one along with the advertisement. Seriously, I think you can back up your ongoing campaign accusation a little better. Im not asking you to take the time to actually do it, just saying what you presented there is on par with turbines marketing,
Again, it is just part of the swarmy obfuscation and insinuation that we have achieved something so grand that people should check it out without them having actually achieved that status. The Slashdot comment alone is no big deal - but when their marketing materials and many other public comments are similarly parsed to suggest this unprecedented success and something so big that everyone has to check it out and such you have to call them on it. Despite what you and I might think when a CEO goes on an interview I can bet you big time he knows exactly what he wants to say and has consulted with people about how to say it to be inline with their marketing plan. This in and of itself is not a bad thing, it is the way of high profile things and people. I am not saying the CEO was seriously suggesting they where the 2nd biggest MMO ever or on their way to millions of subs - but the off hand joke was another sly implication of that as the ads, the beta thing, and the 4 million characters thing. You don't get to be a CEO, or get to stay one without measuring all public remarks as their is just to much riding on things to make loose unfettered comments.
Anyways, I think we can all agree that thier is alot of Turbine (and fans follow their lead) sponsored hype and bragging over something they have yet to establish that they have achieved (and in reality probably haven't) and that it is annoying to say the least.
ie. They count on people taking what they see "at a glance", and not bothering to look into it further. So someone would see it and think "wow.. the second largest MMO..." but wouldn't bother to look deeper to the "for a NA developed MMO".
Yeah, that's another thing about politics I hate... the "fly-by" comments they'll just throw out there. Seems to be the case in marketing, too.
I guess only geeky forum dwellers like ourselves bother to read between the lines and such :-). I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing...
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by WSIMike ie. They count on people taking what they see "at a glance", and not bothering to look into it further. So someone would see it and think "wow.. the second largest MMO..." but wouldn't bother to look deeper to the "for a NA developed MMO".
EXACTLY!
It is why I argued so much about the 'claims' in the other thread, it isn't that I really care whether LotRO has 10 or 10 million subs - I just find their methods deplorable and worth combating. Words mean things to me and even though today's culture seems to value image over substance and impression over achievement - I find it worth contesting those types of things.
One a side note, sorry for labeling you a fanboy elsewhere - while I don't think I did so directly I did by association. In the other threads what has been highlighted here is even contested, the shady hype machine. It just so happens that this OP and the info that followed is fairly incontestable. There has been a steady stream of this type of hyperbole from Turbine and fans and most discussions of it degreade into denials about the hype even existing instead of an honest discussion of the hype and its validity like this discussion has been. As a one on the non-turbine side of this issue (I don't feel I am really being anti-Turbine, just against thier action/methods) it is easy under deluge from the fans denying such things happen to respond to many as perhaps only one or two deserve to be responded to. I hope that you, and others, get what I am meaning here. LotRo is a good game with lots of good elements - it doesn't need to be hyped out of proportion to be something fans can be proud of even if there are people who don't care for the game as it is.
Originally posted by WSIMike ie. They count on people taking what they see "at a glance", and not bothering to look into it further. So someone would see it and think "wow.. the second largest MMO..." but wouldn't bother to look deeper to the "for a NA developed MMO".
EXACTLY!
It is why I argued so much about the 'claims' in the other thread, it isn't that I really care whether LotRO has 10 or 10 million subs - I just find their methods deplorable and worth combating. Words mean things to me and even though today's culture seems to value image over substance and impression over achievement - I find it worth contesting those types of things.
True enough. I tend to get ticked off when I find people acting or speaking in either highly uninformed terms or deliberately blurring the line between opinion and fact - portraying the former as the latter. I really should know by now not to expect anything "more" from internet forums in general. Nonetheless, I find myself drawn into them time and again. I think I just need an excuse to type sometimes heheh.
One a side note, sorry for labeling you a fanboy elsewhere - while I don't think I did so directly I did by association.
Ahh no worries. No apology even necessary, but appreciated. And likewise, I know I get a bit umm... "passionate" at times and say some rather obnoxious things.
Two words: Burly Brawl (that should be near and dear to your heart - though with the numbers a tad reversed . It would be totally appropriate for you to play LoTRO actually... "I killed you, Mister Baggins... I watched you die..."
I get harsh and sarcastic with people at times, but at the end of the day, it's all just points-of-view, and words on a screen, and life goes on. I'd said before that you'd shown yourself to be an intelligent and articulate guy and, really, I thought there was just something about either LoTRO or Turbine in particular that just stuck in your craw in a bad way.
In the other threads what has been highlighted here is even contested, the shady hype machine. It just so happens that this OP and the info that followed is fairly incontestable. There has been a steady stream of this type of hyperbole from Turbine and fans and most discussions of it degreade into denials about the hype even existing instead of an honest discussion of the hype and its validity like this discussion has been. As a one on the non-turbine side of this issue (I don't feel I am really being anti-Turbine, just against thier action/methods) it is easy under deluge from the fans denying such things happen to respond to many as perhaps only one or two deserve to be responded to. I hope that you, and others, get what I am meaning here. LotRo is a good game with lots of good elements - it doesn't need to be hyped out of proportion to be something fans can be proud of even if there are people who don't care for the game as it is.
Yep... But then again, that's why I hate marketing. Probably wouldn't make a good salesperson either.
Here's an old but true story. I was once accepted to beta-test for an ooooold game coming out from Epic; I think they were just publishing it though. It was a RTS type game based around magic and such, though I can't remember the name atm. We're talking back in the dark ages of the early or mid 90's. I had to sign up for Compuserve to become a tester, put it that way. Anyway, at the time, another game company, Apogee (from whom came 3DRealms) used to annoy me to no end for the same reasons. Their marketing was just so disingenuous, over-hyped and misleading to me that it drove me nuts. I don't remember the exact game it was for or what the marketing hype was anymore. I know they talked down another game (I believe it was Jazz Jackrabbit) to prop their game up, and it drove me to actually publically lash out at Scott Miller (one of the co-founders of Apogee) about it, in Apogee's section on Compuserve (had I known then that he's a fellow drummer and, I believe, a Rush fan, I would never have done that :-p)
I was later given a "talking to" by an Epic Games rep and had to apologize publically. I did. lol. Still always irked me, though. To this day, that kind of marketing, and anything similar (e.g. politicians/pundits) drive me up the wall. Yet I'm always drawn to those kinds of debates. Probably some kind of masochism.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Sadly, I think allot of it comes from society - these days true substance is of little value in comparison to style and image. It isn't just Turbine, it is nearly all advertising and pop culture. In advertising these days few things try to tout key features or benefits instead opting to try to create buzz or even outright controversy. Bandwagon advertising (the 'ole 'everyone is doing it' message) has always been in use but today you don't have to actually qualify as something everyone is doing or using to get away with it due to the pervasiveness of media. Turbine is capitalizing on this, or taking advantage of it depending on the way you look at it. I suppose I don't really fault them for doing what they feel is best in terms of generating sales and pushing revenue; nevertheless, I feel compelled to counter such claims when they seem to not only be lacking merit but seem greatly exaggerated as well. I have to admit that a part of the annoyance is just in seeing someone who hasn't earned the right to blabber on about millions of this or that trying to capitalize on it as if they have.
WoW has really done a number on the industry - it is such a phenom in terms of massive widespread appeal that developers are stuck mindlessly chasing them. I think most all of them, at least the bigger and more established companies, have lost site of what it takes to succeed in this industry - a good fun game that allows people to create a unique character in some intersting persistant vitual world 9amoung other things). They are all trying to build the next WoW which is impossible because WoW isn't something you can build or duplicate. I am just getting at how to be the next WoW (or anywhere close) you have to build a great, fun game and not a great, boisterous marketing machine. Turbine would be better served pouring thier collective efforts into new ways to make LotRO the best game it should be rather than interesting ways to try to parse words and claim some kind of WoW like success or the image of such. Given Turbine's track record on content I should think making LotRO the best it can be should be something they are well prepared to do, then let the 'numbers' chips fall where they may.
I have to agree with your last post Smith and it was well said. My only disagreement with anything you've posted is the occasional fanboy comment. I'm sure theres some merit, but there is no need to involve lotr community members in this argument..or any for that matter unless your willing to take the same stance against those who come to bash this game using dressed up BS as well as any fanboy. I think you have once here or there, but not in the same manner as you would a blantant post by someone you consider a fanboy. BS is BS. If your gonna say one side wrong, then you cant let another slide. I understand thats not what you are here to do, but would give you credibility in your stance. Some might not dismiss your points and actually take the time to understand what your really saying. Just my opinion though. Nice discussion here btw.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Actually, i do call it on both sides - recently in this section of these boards I came down on a guy for flaming monster play. I said that while I didn't care for it per se but that at least turbine was trying to do something new with it and that it was better than seeing Hobbits dueling in taverns and such.
Anyways, nice to see some former combatants agreeing for a change. :-)
I know you call it both ways at times..but I think you know what I mean It is nice to see some agreement. I would be lying if I said certain marketing tactics didnt affect me, or claim that turbine was above using those tactics.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Actually, i do call it on both sides - recently in this section of these boards I came down on a guy for flaming monster play. I said that while I didn't care for it per se but that at least turbine was trying to do something new with it and that it was better than seeing Hobbits dueling in taverns and such.
Anyways, nice to see some former combatants agreeing for a change. :-)
They're free, dammit!!!!
I mean... umm...
... tumbleweed rolls by...
Meh... I hate the "fanboy" label anyway. I think it's ridiculous, frankly. Right up there with "carebear". They've both been bastardized, generalized and misused so much by now that they're both basically meaningless. The intent behind them still irks me, especially when they're pulled out as the intended "check-mate" move in a debate over whether a game is good or not, or whether or not "continued lowbie ganking and corpse camping" is really in the spirit of PvP.
I'd love to see those terms die off.
I know they won't.
But I can dream, can't I?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I will agree that they are mis-used quite often, at least in terms of fanboy. But there are allot of people on boards such as these who just refuse to accept anyone saying anything but good things about the object of their fanboy-love. Perhaps it is dismissive to use the term but when you are dealing with someone arguing with emotion and not reason being dismissive is often the only recourse.
Blizzard does say Active Accounts in their announcements. Turbine just said Characters.
No, you are wrong.
Blizzard does say how many accounts there are open on their website not how many active subscribers. Those accounts are different CD-KEYS (inluding trial accounts, or friends cd-key pass).
When a company has to release character numbers instead of subscriber numbers you can smell the BS coming. Second largest MMO? If you exclude second life, lineage, lineage II... If their numbers are below 300K then they are fighting a couple others as well. Turbine made one good MMO and has been shoveling crap ever since. Time they cowboy up and release AC again with a 2nd gen engine.
Also the numbers being thrown out are ignoring trial accounts, characters on multiple servers (IE. more the 5 characters), and canceled accounts. I could believe 400K which is respectable... but they are no where near 800K subscribers.
Correction on your comment, TURBINE DID NOT MAKE AC!
Microsoft made AC, and Turbine bought it after years of greatness. Turbine has done a wonderful job with AC since, I still play it and it's one of the best MMORPG out to date. Try it out if you don't believe me.
@smith Has Turbine lied or mislead people concerning lotro? I understand the marketing beef..i dont like marketing either, 4 mil chars created is kinda lame imo...either tell the subs or dont imo. But i dont see what the problem is here. Its better than claiming they sold 350k expansion packs like some other company. Wheres your post against that? Or is Turbine your only concern?
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
Thank You! I've been trying to find that picture forever. I would always bring this up, but as always, the fanboys kept telling me to show proof. I knew i was right because i have that advertisment in my magazine, i just don't have a scanner.
Once again, this proves Turbine expected millions of players, like i've always said.
Blizzard does say Active Accounts in their announcements. Turbine just said Characters.
No, you are wrong.
Blizzard does say how many accounts there are open on their website not how many active subscribers. Those accounts are different CD-KEYS (inluding trial accounts, or friends cd-key pass).
World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees’ territories are defined along the same rules.
Notice where they say PAID subscriptions within free month, and ACTIVE prepaid cards.
Notice where it says it excludes FREE PROMOTIONAL SUBSCRIPTIONS.
I believe that excludes trial accounts and friend passes.
@smith Has Turbine lied or mislead people concerning lotro? I understand the marketing beef..i dont like marketing either, 4 mil chars created is kinda lame imo...either tell the subs or dont imo. But i dont see what the problem is here. Its better than claiming they sold 350k expansion packs like some other company. Wheres your post against that? Or is Turbine your only concern?
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
Thank You! I've been trying to find that picture forever. I would always bring this up, but as always, the fanboys kept telling me to show proof. I knew i was right because i have that advertisment in my magazine, i just don't have a scanner.
Once again, this proves Turbine expected millions of players, like i've always said.
WTF?? How could a commercial "prove" anything? You are surely kidding
It only proves one thing: they have creative people in marketing. I like this ad !
Imagine a commercial saying: Lord of the Rings - a game for 412,122 people!
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
When a company has to release character numbers instead of subscriber numbers you can smell the BS coming. Second largest MMO? If you exclude second life, lineage, lineage II... If their numbers are below 300K then they are fighting a couple others as well. Turbine made one good MMO and has been shoveling crap ever since. Time they cowboy up and release AC again with a 2nd gen engine.
Also the numbers being thrown out are ignoring trial accounts, characters on multiple servers (IE. more the 5 characters), and canceled accounts. I could believe 400K which is respectable... but they are no where near 800K subscribers.
Correction on your comment, TURBINE DID NOT MAKE AC!
Microsoft made AC, and Turbine bought it after years of greatness. Turbine has done a wonderful job with AC since, I still play it and it's one of the best MMORPG out to date. Try it out if you don't believe me.
You've got your history confused; or your terminology.
Turbine did develop, or "make", to use your term, Asheron's Call. And Asheron's Call 2. Their lore, their engine, their developers.
They had an arrangement with Microsoft, whom *published* the game and held the rights to the IP (something common in developer/publisher deals)
Turbine bought all rights, including publishing, for both games from Microsoft in 2003.
Publishing and Developing are two different things.
Do a little research, and you'll see for yourself.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
OMG... seriously people... Quit judging a game based upon how many subscribers it may or may not have. Quit trying to justify your purchasing decision by pointing to the masses and saying "look... I'm so right!... everybody else is playing it too!..." It doesn't make you right. It makes you another follower who doesn't trust themselves enough to make an informed argument about a game's true merits. It makes you a lemming. For what it's worth I happen to play 2 games actively at the moment (LOTRO and EVE) although I've played at least a half-dozen others over the years. And the only thing that I care about is whether or not the game is fun for me... those two games are probalby opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of gameplay mechanics and complexity level, but for whatever reason they both suit my tastes just dandy. As a counterpoint, WoW has a bazilliaon kajillion subscribers, but I lost interest in it by level 30. So which one is better? Better for me? Better for you? I'm not here to bash LOTRO (why would I? I like the game and play it actively), nor am I here to defend LOTRO. I'm here to say "trust your own judgement and to hell with what other people, or subscription numbers, or marketing people have to say".
Agreed entirely. People are just lemmings when it comes to MMOs...hence why there is such a thing as the FOTM. It's the, "If you're anything except the FOTM, you suck.," mentality.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
@smith Has Turbine lied or mislead people concerning lotro? I understand the marketing beef..i dont like marketing either, 4 mil chars created is kinda lame imo...either tell the subs or dont imo. But i dont see what the problem is here. Its better than claiming they sold 350k expansion packs like some other company. Wheres your post against that? Or is Turbine your only concern?
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
Thank You! I've been trying to find that picture forever. I would always bring this up, but as always, the fanboys kept telling me to show proof. I knew i was right because i have that advertisment in my magazine, i just don't have a scanner.
Once again, this proves Turbine expected millions of players, like i've always said.
Why is it fanboyish for people to want proof of something? People request/require proof of others claims all the time, in thousands of different situations. To just blindly believe what you're told on its face is often referred to as "gullibility". See, now this is precisely what I mean by the word "fanboy" being grossly over-used in an earlier post. Thank you for providing a perfect example.
Why is it bad for a company to expect millions of players? Especially with an IP like LoTR. Hell, Blizzard didn't even expect the level of success they've had and Warcraft is also a hugely popular IP. See, this is where I draw a line. It's one thing if they claim to *have* millions of players, which they do not in that ad, nor in any other that I've seen. Though it's worded in a way that could imply that, as has already been discussed in this thread, they do not come out and say "Come join the millions of players already playing Lord of The Rings" - because that would be flat out lying. So, instead they come up with some clever phrasing that most people would only really give a quick glance, and bingo.
It's shady, yes. But they make no claims of actual player numbers there. That's marketing at work for ya.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
As the above post says... marketing can be really dirty.
Note in the ad above it says "Millions of players. One game to rule them all."
It does not say millions of players of THIS game. Let me add a few words: "[there are] millions of [mmo] players [worldwide playing many different games]. [we're selling what we think is the best game out there]."
Perfectly valid! But many people will fall for the spin.
The whole subscriber count thing is just silly. How does LOTRO define a "character"? Are NPC's not characters? Do PC's not interact with "characters"? If you log in with one character 3 times in a day are you counted 3 times?
Definitely inflated numbers meant to spin.
I hate that. I would much rather they were honest and said hey we got 100,000 paid subscribers! woot! That to me would carry a lot more weight than an obviously fake number of "characters".
But in this day of "more air bags is better in a car" it's inevitable that game companies would bow to the pressure of the marketing hype.
Why is it fanboyish for people to want proof of something? People request/require proof of others claims all the time, in thousands of different situations. To just blindly believe what you're told on its face is often referred to as "gullibility". See, now this is precisely what I mean by the word "fanboy" being grossly over-used in an earlier post. Thank you for providing a perfect example.
Not to undo or recent tranquility but what I think he is getting at is the way the demand for proof is used to dismiss widely known truths. It is no secret that Turbine and fans have been hyping LotRO as a WoW killer but just saying something like that draws in tons of flames from devotees who deny it. Sometimes you have links and such handy other times you don't.
Proof is good, I agree - but we all know the Sun is hot and that water is wet - expecting a link or some such proof of certain things is just part of the denial that draws the fanboy label.
I have seen nothing from turbine or fans hyping LOTR to be a wow killer. The only thing that could remotely be interrperated as that is the "one game to rule them all". And thats not enough to make a claim about anything. Its a play on words from the lore. For an advertisement. You guys are looking into this way to much imo. I guess I could say, If you take the lore only..then lotr does rule them all . Does that prove that claims of wow killing are false then?(lotr having the best lore is my opinion of coarse..not trying to start a debate on that topic) You can draw many conclusions from that line. Its the same when an ad says play with 100's of thousands of others..should i go to that games forums informing the people that they are really only playing with a few thousand tops and that that games company is hyping or misleading you into thinking your all on one server? To me, thats about what you guys are doing here. And Im scratching my head going "huh"? So again this is the same ol argument, round and round we go i guess. No one can be right, no one can be wrong, it can go on forever...least til WAR and AOC come out and then it will move there. Wait til you see the hype from those companies.
I personally have never talked to anyone in game or back in the real world that even thought that a possibility. I think some want a game to kill WOW because they're so tired of the "9 mil subs..nuff said" comment that is used whenever any debate about WOW occurs that they may have used lotr to argue with wow fans for the sake of arguing. But thats about as far as any wow killing hype has gone that I have seen. Im not asking for proof..Im asking what are you guys talking about when you seem to be saying "i told you so" to either us, or turbine? Nor do I understand where any motivation to do so comes from.
Anyway, I do agree the marketing is lame. The same kinda lame you get from other companies who dont release sub numbers. I dont really understand why so many seem to care about turbines marketing even if they were over hyping as it as wow killer .or why this forum of all places was chosen to warn others about the hype being that maybe .00001% of lotr community is even a member of mmorpg.com let alone heard of it.
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Why is it fanboyish for people to want proof of something? People request/require proof of others claims all the time, in thousands of different situations. To just blindly believe what you're told on its face is often referred to as "gullibility". See, now this is precisely what I mean by the word "fanboy" being grossly over-used in an earlier post. Thank you for providing a perfect example.
Not to undo or recent tranquility but what I think he is getting at is the way the demand for proof is used to dismiss widely known truths. It is no secret that Turbine and fans have been hyping LotRO as a WoW killer but just saying something like that draws in tons of flames from devotees who deny it. Sometimes you have links and such handy other times you don't.
Proof is good, I agree - but we all know the Sun is hot and that water is wet - expecting a link or some such proof of certain things is just part of the denial that draws the fanboy label.
Hmm... I see where you're coming from, but I don't entirely agree. To me, if you are going to say "there's an ad that says 'such and such'" - you should provide some reference to it. Like you scanned the ad is a good example. Or, failing that, say "It's in the August edition of PCGamer if you want to see it for yourself", or whatever.
It just drives me bonkers to see people debating the truth or fallacy of some alleged article or report when nothing has even been provided to prove it actually *exists* in the first place.
I guess I'm a bit more particular on that because I 've seen people fabricate entire details out of thin air far too often - even claiming something was said, or an ad was put out or what-not. Sometimes, they're completely misinterpreting what's being said - either mistakenly or deliberately - in which case a link to what they're referring to is good so others can see it for themselves and see if the poster's interpretation is correct or a spin of it. And that happens both ways. This is why I kept grilling you for links to some of what you said in those other threads. Believe me, I wasn't picking on you (well, at least not in that capacity . That's just me. I'm inherently skeptical of any claim made without something to back it up.
I blame it on following politics and watching those talk shows and debates for 4 years before I got sick of all the dishonesty - of politicians making claims and accusations; then slithering their way out when called on it, by spinning it yet another way. It's really made me apolitical, if anything. I think both sides are full of it. But I digress...
I think in an environment like message forums where there is no accountability for anything that's said, if you want to maintain as "normal" or "respectable" a debate as possible, people need to be kept honest. There should be a burden of proof maintained to what people claim. Of course, that rarely happens, which is why internet forums are often the *last* place to go if you want anything that's at all "respectable".
Opinions don't need "proof", only well-reasoned explanation. Claims of "truth" or things that do exist, however, do. At least for me.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
While Turbine isn't naming WoW as their target I think the constant references to millions of subs (either outright or slight) makes it pretty obvious that they are trying to give the impression that LotRO is on par with WoW, or on its way to that status. No game company tries to say they are going to beat another game, the 'WoW killer' phrase just refers in short to the idea that a game is off to that type of success. In FPS games you get the 'BattleField killer' phrase tossed around allot as games that are similar come out, in MMOs it is WoW because WoW is on the top of the heap.
As far as the references go Mike, I agree - but as this thread illustrates well Turbine has made a concerted effort to create at least the image of LotRO as a million+ sub game and unless someone just doesn't pay attention to such things I really think it has been so vocal and so pervasive a campaign that referring to it without reference is not the worst thing. That being said, references are always good I suppose.
Originally posted by WSIMike I think in an environment like message forums where there is no accountability for anything that's said, if you want to maintain as "normal" or "respectable" a debate as possible, people need to be kept honest. There should be a burden of proof maintained to what people claim. Of course, that rarely happens, which is why internet forums are often the *last* place to go if you want anything that's at all "respectable". Opinions don't need "proof", only well-reasoned explanation. Claims of "truth" or things that do exist, however, do. At least for me.
We shall agree again. I think the failure to adhere to the above is what makes the fanboys and haters valid groups. There are some people, allot really, that just argue all things from an emotional standpoint and facts and reason play no part - they might love or hate a game but their blindness to reality, reason, and facts is steadfast. I can understand the disdain for labels that you express but in some cases it is appropriate, particularly with fanboys and haters as in this format one or two of either can derail any discussion no matter how well reasoned and mannered it is otherwise.
Meens everyone got like 10 alts , els it includes beta testers chars and that is pahtetic. They are blowing it out of proportion.
Probly not beta characters as those were erased unless pre-ordered. Also it is the same with EQ2 numbers or WoW saying they have 9 million subscribers when 7 million are in china playing for 2 cents an hour.
Marketing is marketing and you can spin numbers anyway you want. Hell the Senate of the U.S. almost passed a ban on Dihydro Oxide due to the fact that it is one of the largest causes of death in the United States.
Spin it how they spin it the max chars you can have on an acct is 5. So they are at 800k accounts. I gotta say that is pretty dam good for being only out in the US and UK right?
Comments
I think i mentionned it already. This is no way an attack to the game but an attacked aimed at Turbine... They should know better IMO.
eqnext.wikia.com
Mostly, I agree - but when you couple the joke (admittingly a joke) with the 2 largest whatever in North America odd comments and the other things I think it does play into the pattern of them trying, in serious adds and in off hand comments/jokes, to create this image of LotRO having or on the way to millions and millions of subs.
Again, it is just part of the swarmy obfuscation and insinuation that we have achieved something so grand that people should check it out without them having actually achieved that status. The Slashdot comment alone is no big deal - but when their marketing materials and many other public comments are similarly parsed to suggest this unprecedented success and something so big that everyone has to check it out and such you have to call them on it. Despite what you and I might think when a CEO goes on an interview I can bet you big time he knows exactly what he wants to say and has consulted with people about how to say it to be inline with their marketing plan. This in and of itself is not a bad thing, it is the way of high profile things and people. I am not saying the CEO was seriously suggesting they where the 2nd biggest MMO ever or on their way to millions of subs - but the off hand joke was another sly implication of that as the ads, the beta thing, and the 4 million characters thing. You don't get to be a CEO, or get to stay one without measuring all public remarks as their is just to much riding on things to make loose unfettered comments.
Anyways, I think we can all agree that thier is alot of Turbine (and fans follow their lead) sponsored hype and bragging over something they have yet to establish that they have achieved (and in reality probably haven't) and that it is annoying to say the least.
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Mostly, I agree - but when you couple the joke (admittingly a joke) with the 2 largest whatever in North America odd comments and the other things I think it does play into the pattern of them trying, in serious adds and in off hand comments/jokes, to create this image of LotRO having or on the way to millions and millions of subs.
Again, it is just part of the swarmy obfuscation and insinuation that we have achieved something so grand that people should check it out without them having actually achieved that status. The Slashdot comment alone is no big deal - but when their marketing materials and many other public comments are similarly parsed to suggest this unprecedented success and something so big that everyone has to check it out and such you have to call them on it. Despite what you and I might think when a CEO goes on an interview I can bet you big time he knows exactly what he wants to say and has consulted with people about how to say it to be inline with their marketing plan. This in and of itself is not a bad thing, it is the way of high profile things and people. I am not saying the CEO was seriously suggesting they where the 2nd biggest MMO ever or on their way to millions of subs - but the off hand joke was another sly implication of that as the ads, the beta thing, and the 4 million characters thing. You don't get to be a CEO, or get to stay one without measuring all public remarks as their is just to much riding on things to make loose unfettered comments.
Anyways, I think we can all agree that thier is alot of Turbine (and fans follow their lead) sponsored hype and bragging over something they have yet to establish that they have achieved (and in reality probably haven't) and that it is annoying to say the least.
ie. They count on people taking what they see "at a glance", and not bothering to look into it further. So someone would see it and think "wow.. the second largest MMO..." but wouldn't bother to look deeper to the "for a NA developed MMO".
Yeah, that's another thing about politics I hate... the "fly-by" comments they'll just throw out there. Seems to be the case in marketing, too.
I guess only geeky forum dwellers like ourselves bother to read between the lines and such :-). I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing...
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
EXACTLY!
It is why I argued so much about the 'claims' in the other thread, it isn't that I really care whether LotRO has 10 or 10 million subs - I just find their methods deplorable and worth combating. Words mean things to me and even though today's culture seems to value image over substance and impression over achievement - I find it worth contesting those types of things.
One a side note, sorry for labeling you a fanboy elsewhere - while I don't think I did so directly I did by association. In the other threads what has been highlighted here is even contested, the shady hype machine. It just so happens that this OP and the info that followed is fairly incontestable. There has been a steady stream of this type of hyperbole from Turbine and fans and most discussions of it degreade into denials about the hype even existing instead of an honest discussion of the hype and its validity like this discussion has been. As a one on the non-turbine side of this issue (I don't feel I am really being anti-Turbine, just against thier action/methods) it is easy under deluge from the fans denying such things happen to respond to many as perhaps only one or two deserve to be responded to. I hope that you, and others, get what I am meaning here. LotRo is a good game with lots of good elements - it doesn't need to be hyped out of proportion to be something fans can be proud of even if there are people who don't care for the game as it is.
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EXACTLY!
It is why I argued so much about the 'claims' in the other thread, it isn't that I really care whether LotRO has 10 or 10 million subs - I just find their methods deplorable and worth combating. Words mean things to me and even though today's culture seems to value image over substance and impression over achievement - I find it worth contesting those types of things.
True enough. I tend to get ticked off when I find people acting or speaking in either highly uninformed terms or deliberately blurring the line between opinion and fact - portraying the former as the latter. I really should know by now not to expect anything "more" from internet forums in general. Nonetheless, I find myself drawn into them time and again. I think I just need an excuse to type sometimes heheh.
One a side note, sorry for labeling you a fanboy elsewhere - while I don't think I did so directly I did by association.
Ahh no worries. No apology even necessary, but appreciated. And likewise, I know I get a bit umm... "passionate" at times and say some rather obnoxious things.
Two words: Burly Brawl (that should be near and dear to your heart - though with the numbers a tad reversed
. It would be totally appropriate for you to play LoTRO actually... "I killed you, Mister Baggins... I watched you die..."
I get harsh and sarcastic with people at times, but at the end of the day, it's all just points-of-view, and words on a screen, and life goes on. I'd said before that you'd shown yourself to be an intelligent and articulate guy and, really, I thought there was just something about either LoTRO or Turbine in particular that just stuck in your craw in a bad way.
In the other threads what has been highlighted here is even contested, the shady hype machine. It just so happens that this OP and the info that followed is fairly incontestable. There has been a steady stream of this type of hyperbole from Turbine and fans and most discussions of it degreade into denials about the hype even existing instead of an honest discussion of the hype and its validity like this discussion has been. As a one on the non-turbine side of this issue (I don't feel I am really being anti-Turbine, just against thier action/methods) it is easy under deluge from the fans denying such things happen to respond to many as perhaps only one or two deserve to be responded to. I hope that you, and others, get what I am meaning here. LotRo is a good game with lots of good elements - it doesn't need to be hyped out of proportion to be something fans can be proud of even if there are people who don't care for the game as it is.
Yep... But then again, that's why I hate marketing. Probably wouldn't make a good salesperson either.
Here's an old but true story. I was once accepted to beta-test for an ooooold game coming out from Epic; I think they were just publishing it though. It was a RTS type game based around magic and such, though I can't remember the name atm. We're talking back in the dark ages of the early or mid 90's. I had to sign up for Compuserve to become a tester, put it that way. Anyway, at the time, another game company, Apogee (from whom came 3DRealms) used to annoy me to no end for the same reasons. Their marketing was just so disingenuous, over-hyped and misleading to me that it drove me nuts. I don't remember the exact game it was for or what the marketing hype was anymore. I know they talked down another game (I believe it was Jazz Jackrabbit) to prop their game up, and it drove me to actually publically lash out at Scott Miller (one of the co-founders of Apogee) about it, in Apogee's section on Compuserve (had I known then that he's a fellow drummer and, I believe, a Rush fan, I would never have done that :-p)
I was later given a "talking to" by an Epic Games rep and had to apologize publically. I did. lol. Still always irked me, though. To this day, that kind of marketing, and anything similar (e.g. politicians/pundits) drive me up the wall. Yet I'm always drawn to those kinds of debates. Probably some kind of masochism.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Sadly, I think allot of it comes from society - these days true substance is of little value in comparison to style and image. It isn't just Turbine, it is nearly all advertising and pop culture. In advertising these days few things try to tout key features or benefits instead opting to try to create buzz or even outright controversy. Bandwagon advertising (the 'ole 'everyone is doing it' message) has always been in use but today you don't have to actually qualify as something everyone is doing or using to get away with it due to the pervasiveness of media. Turbine is capitalizing on this, or taking advantage of it depending on the way you look at it. I suppose I don't really fault them for doing what they feel is best in terms of generating sales and pushing revenue; nevertheless, I feel compelled to counter such claims when they seem to not only be lacking merit but seem greatly exaggerated as well. I have to admit that a part of the annoyance is just in seeing someone who hasn't earned the right to blabber on about millions of this or that trying to capitalize on it as if they have.
WoW has really done a number on the industry - it is such a phenom in terms of massive widespread appeal that developers are stuck mindlessly chasing them. I think most all of them, at least the bigger and more established companies, have lost site of what it takes to succeed in this industry - a good fun game that allows people to create a unique character in some intersting persistant vitual world 9amoung other things). They are all trying to build the next WoW which is impossible because WoW isn't something you can build or duplicate. I am just getting at how to be the next WoW (or anywhere close) you have to build a great, fun game and not a great, boisterous marketing machine. Turbine would be better served pouring thier collective efforts into new ways to make LotRO the best game it should be rather than interesting ways to try to parse words and claim some kind of WoW like success or the image of such. Given Turbine's track record on content I should think making LotRO the best it can be should be something they are well prepared to do, then let the 'numbers' chips fall where they may.
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I have to agree with your last post Smith and it was well said. My only disagreement with anything you've posted is the occasional fanboy comment. I'm sure theres some merit, but there is no need to involve lotr community members in this argument..or any for that matter unless your willing to take the same stance against those who come to bash this game using dressed up BS as well as any fanboy. I think you have once here or there, but not in the same manner as you would a blantant post by someone you consider a fanboy. BS is BS. If your gonna say one side wrong, then you cant let another slide. I understand thats not what you are here to do, but would give you credibility in your stance. Some might not dismiss your points and actually take the time to understand what your really saying. Just my opinion though. Nice discussion here btw.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Actually, i do call it on both sides - recently in this section of these boards I came down on a guy for flaming monster play. I said that while I didn't care for it per se but that at least turbine was trying to do something new with it and that it was better than seeing Hobbits dueling in taverns and such.
Anyways, nice to see some former combatants agreeing for a change. :-)
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I know you call it both ways at times..but I think you know what I mean
It is nice to see some agreement. I would be lying if I said certain marketing tactics didnt affect me, or claim that turbine was above using those tactics.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
They're free, dammit!!!!
I mean... umm...
... tumbleweed rolls by...
Meh... I hate the "fanboy" label anyway. I think it's ridiculous, frankly. Right up there with "carebear". They've both been bastardized, generalized and misused so much by now that they're both basically meaningless. The intent behind them still irks me, especially when they're pulled out as the intended "check-mate" move in a debate over whether a game is good or not, or whether or not "continued lowbie ganking and corpse camping" is really in the spirit of PvP.
I'd love to see those terms die off.
I know they won't.
But I can dream, can't I?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I will agree that they are mis-used quite often, at least in terms of fanboy. But there are allot of people on boards such as these who just refuse to accept anyone saying anything but good things about the object of their fanboy-love. Perhaps it is dismissive to use the term but when you are dealing with someone arguing with emotion and not reason being dismissive is often the only recourse.
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Blizzard does say how many accounts there are open on their website not how many active subscribers. Those accounts are different CD-KEYS (inluding trial accounts, or friends cd-key pass).
REALITY CHECK
Correction on your comment, TURBINE DID NOT MAKE AC!
Microsoft made AC, and Turbine bought it after years of greatness. Turbine has done a wonderful job with AC since, I still play it and it's one of the best MMORPG out to date. Try it out if you don't believe me.
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
Thank You! I've been trying to find that picture forever. I would always bring this up, but as always, the fanboys kept telling me to show proof. I knew i was right because i have that advertisment in my magazine, i just don't have a scanner.
Once again, this proves Turbine expected millions of players, like i've always said.
Blizzard does say how many accounts there are open on their website not how many active subscribers. Those accounts are different CD-KEYS (inluding trial accounts, or friends cd-key pass).
I believe that excludes trial accounts and friend passes.
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
Thank You! I've been trying to find that picture forever. I would always bring this up, but as always, the fanboys kept telling me to show proof. I knew i was right because i have that advertisment in my magazine, i just don't have a scanner.
Once again, this proves Turbine expected millions of players, like i've always said.
WTF?? How could a commercial "prove" anything? You are surely kidding
It only proves one thing: they have creative people in marketing. I like this ad !
Imagine a commercial saying: Lord of the Rings - a game for 412,122 people!
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Correction on your comment, TURBINE DID NOT MAKE AC!
Microsoft made AC, and Turbine bought it after years of greatness. Turbine has done a wonderful job with AC since, I still play it and it's one of the best MMORPG out to date. Try it out if you don't believe me.
You've got your history confused; or your terminology.
Turbine did develop, or "make", to use your term, Asheron's Call. And Asheron's Call 2. Their lore, their engine, their developers.
They had an arrangement with Microsoft, whom *published* the game and held the rights to the IP (something common in developer/publisher deals)
Turbine bought all rights, including publishing, for both games from Microsoft in 2003.
Publishing and Developing are two different things.
Do a little research, and you'll see for yourself.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Agreed entirely. People are just lemmings when it comes to MMOs...hence why there is such a thing as the FOTM. It's the, "If you're anything except the FOTM, you suck.," mentality.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
I think I am pretty consistent across this board and others in so far as I call BS when I here BS. In the case of LotRO I hear it allot from fans and from turbine directly with their consistent, organized campaign to try to create the impression of WoW-type success. It just irks me to see that much hype and marketing and spin being tossed around without them being willing to prove it when they quite easily could if it where true. Just today I opened a magazine a pal gave me and I see the below:
I mean there is no denying they are running around trying to give the impression that the game has millions of subs, or outright saying it as the ad above shows. I just find it outrageous that they be allowed to get away with such hype and hyperbole without providing numbers. I mean still the same number of servers as launch (clearly not enough to hold millions of subs) yet they keep on claiming this stuff - not to mention that had they even made 1 mil subs it would be worth announcing from the top of the gaming hilltops. the whole campaign just wreaks of dishonesty and, frankly, arrogance.
As for the 350k thing I am unfamiliar with that but had I been involved in whatever game it was and aware of it being BS I would have called them out. With LotRO it is just annoying hearing them squalk and squalk as if they have the greatest game ever without ever proving they have even 10 subscribers let alone the millions they insinuate - it gets amplified by the fanboy types that go around quoting the hype as if it where fact and such as well.
Thank You! I've been trying to find that picture forever. I would always bring this up, but as always, the fanboys kept telling me to show proof. I knew i was right because i have that advertisment in my magazine, i just don't have a scanner.
Once again, this proves Turbine expected millions of players, like i've always said.
Why is it fanboyish for people to want proof of something? People request/require proof of others claims all the time, in thousands of different situations. To just blindly believe what you're told on its face is often referred to as "gullibility". See, now this is precisely what I mean by the word "fanboy" being grossly over-used in an earlier post. Thank you for providing a perfect example.
Why is it bad for a company to expect millions of players? Especially with an IP like LoTR. Hell, Blizzard didn't even expect the level of success they've had and Warcraft is also a hugely popular IP. See, this is where I draw a line. It's one thing if they claim to *have* millions of players, which they do not in that ad, nor in any other that I've seen. Though it's worded in a way that could imply that, as has already been discussed in this thread, they do not come out and say "Come join the millions of players already playing Lord of The Rings" - because that would be flat out lying. So, instead they come up with some clever phrasing that most people would only really give a quick glance, and bingo.
It's shady, yes. But they make no claims of actual player numbers there. That's marketing at work for ya.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
As the above post says... marketing can be really dirty.
Note in the ad above it says "Millions of players. One game to rule them all."
It does not say millions of players of THIS game. Let me add a few words: "[there are] millions of [mmo] players [worldwide playing many different games]. [we're selling what we think is the best game out there]."
Perfectly valid! But many people will fall for the spin.
The whole subscriber count thing is just silly. How does LOTRO define a "character"? Are NPC's not characters? Do PC's not interact with "characters"? If you log in with one character 3 times in a day are you counted 3 times?
Definitely inflated numbers meant to spin.
I hate that. I would much rather they were honest and said hey we got 100,000 paid subscribers! woot! That to me would carry a lot more weight than an obviously fake number of "characters".
But in this day of "more air bags is better in a car" it's inevitable that game companies would bow to the pressure of the marketing hype.
Not to undo or recent tranquility but what I think he is getting at is the way the demand for proof is used to dismiss widely known truths. It is no secret that Turbine and fans have been hyping LotRO as a WoW killer but just saying something like that draws in tons of flames from devotees who deny it. Sometimes you have links and such handy other times you don't.
Proof is good, I agree - but we all know the Sun is hot and that water is wet - expecting a link or some such proof of certain things is just part of the denial that draws the fanboy label.
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I have seen nothing from turbine or fans hyping LOTR to be a wow killer. The only thing that could remotely be interrperated as that is the "one game to rule them all". And thats not enough to make a claim about anything. Its a play on words from the lore. For an advertisement. You guys are looking into this way to much imo. I guess I could say, If you take the lore only..then lotr does rule them all . Does that prove that claims of wow killing are false then?(lotr having the best lore is my opinion of coarse..not trying to start a debate on that topic) You can draw many conclusions from that line. Its the same when an ad says play with 100's of thousands of others..should i go to that games forums informing the people that they are really only playing with a few thousand tops and that that games company is hyping or misleading you into thinking your all on one server? To me, thats about what you guys are doing here. And Im scratching my head going "huh"? So again this is the same ol argument, round and round we go i guess. No one can be right, no one can be wrong, it can go on forever...least til WAR and AOC come out and then it will move there. Wait til you see the hype from those companies.
I personally have never talked to anyone in game or back in the real world that even thought that a possibility. I think some want a game to kill WOW because they're so tired of the "9 mil subs..nuff said" comment that is used whenever any debate about WOW occurs that they may have used lotr to argue with wow fans for the sake of arguing. But thats about as far as any wow killing hype has gone that I have seen. Im not asking for proof..Im asking what are you guys talking about when you seem to be saying "i told you so" to either us, or turbine? Nor do I understand where any motivation to do so comes from.
Anyway, I do agree the marketing is lame. The same kinda lame you get from other companies who dont release sub numbers. I dont really understand why so many seem to care about turbines marketing even if they were over hyping as it as wow killer .or why this forum of all places was chosen to warn others about the hype being that maybe .00001% of lotr community is even a member of mmorpg.com let alone heard of it.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Not to undo or recent tranquility but what I think he is getting at is the way the demand for proof is used to dismiss widely known truths. It is no secret that Turbine and fans have been hyping LotRO as a WoW killer but just saying something like that draws in tons of flames from devotees who deny it. Sometimes you have links and such handy other times you don't.
Proof is good, I agree - but we all know the Sun is hot and that water is wet - expecting a link or some such proof of certain things is just part of the denial that draws the fanboy label.
Hmm... I see where you're coming from, but I don't entirely agree. To me, if you are going to say "there's an ad that says 'such and such'" - you should provide some reference to it. Like you scanned the ad is a good example. Or, failing that, say "It's in the August edition of PCGamer if you want to see it for yourself", or whatever.
It just drives me bonkers to see people debating the truth or fallacy of some alleged article or report when nothing has even been provided to prove it actually *exists* in the first place.
I guess I'm a bit more particular on that because I 've seen people fabricate entire details out of thin air far too often - even claiming something was said, or an ad was put out or what-not. Sometimes, they're completely misinterpreting what's being said - either mistakenly or deliberately - in which case a link to what they're referring to is good so others can see it for themselves and see if the poster's interpretation is correct or a spin of it. And that happens both ways. This is why I kept grilling you for links to some of what you said in those other threads. Believe me, I wasn't picking on you (well, at least not in that capacity
. That's just me. I'm inherently skeptical of any claim made without something to back it up.
I blame it on following politics and watching those talk shows and debates for 4 years before I got sick of all the dishonesty - of politicians making claims and accusations; then slithering their way out when called on it, by spinning it yet another way. It's really made me apolitical, if anything. I think both sides are full of it. But I digress...
I think in an environment like message forums where there is no accountability for anything that's said, if you want to maintain as "normal" or "respectable" a debate as possible, people need to be kept honest. There should be a burden of proof maintained to what people claim. Of course, that rarely happens, which is why internet forums are often the *last* place to go if you want anything that's at all "respectable".
Opinions don't need "proof", only well-reasoned explanation. Claims of "truth" or things that do exist, however, do. At least for me.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
While Turbine isn't naming WoW as their target I think the constant references to millions of subs (either outright or slight) makes it pretty obvious that they are trying to give the impression that LotRO is on par with WoW, or on its way to that status. No game company tries to say they are going to beat another game, the 'WoW killer' phrase just refers in short to the idea that a game is off to that type of success. In FPS games you get the 'BattleField killer' phrase tossed around allot as games that are similar come out, in MMOs it is WoW because WoW is on the top of the heap.
As far as the references go Mike, I agree - but as this thread illustrates well Turbine has made a concerted effort to create at least the image of LotRO as a million+ sub game and unless someone just doesn't pay attention to such things I really think it has been so vocal and so pervasive a campaign that referring to it without reference is not the worst thing. That being said, references are always good I suppose.
We shall agree again. I think the failure to adhere to the above is what makes the fanboys and haters valid groups. There are some people, allot really, that just argue all things from an emotional standpoint and facts and reason play no part - they might love or hate a game but their blindness to reality, reason, and facts is steadfast. I can understand the disdain for labels that you express but in some cases it is appropriate, particularly with fanboys and haters as in this format one or two of either can derail any discussion no matter how well reasoned and mannered it is otherwise.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
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Probly not beta characters as those were erased unless pre-ordered. Also it is the same with EQ2 numbers or WoW saying they have 9 million subscribers when 7 million are in china playing for 2 cents an hour.
Marketing is marketing and you can spin numbers anyway you want. Hell the Senate of the U.S. almost passed a ban on Dihydro Oxide due to the fact that it is one of the largest causes of death in the United States.
Spin it how they spin it the max chars you can have on an acct is 5. So they are at 800k accounts. I gotta say that is pretty dam good for being only out in the US and UK right?